The Nine Satanic Statements

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Satan. The Devil. Beelzebub. Lucifer. The Beast. The Prince of Darkness. There are numerous names and synonyms for this anthropomorphic personification of anything and everything that is evil, but does he (or she) deserve the rap? I’ve never been religious in any way, shape, or form, but I’ve been around long enough to know that “Jesus is good, Satan is bad.” As per my habit of looking at different sides of things and inverting them with the intention of gaining a better understanding, I came across an interesting character named Anton LaVey.


The world’s premier Satanist and (not surprisingly), the founder of the Church of Satan, LaVey, who died in 1997 and presumably went straight to Hell, gave me the impression that he was much more of an entertainer than a true agent of evil, which doesn’t really make him that much different than countless other celebrities. If there truly is a Hell, then LaVey probably is having a hell of a time there; in addition to his other talents, he evidently was a gifted keyboard player. I can only imagine what kind of band could be formed by other musicians who wound up in the infernal regions…undoubtedly, the Supergroup From Hell. Pretty catchy name!


Anyway, I read LaVey’s Nine Satanic Statements, and thought I would use them as a litmus test to see if I was a Satanist or not, so here goes:


#1: Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence.

Hmmmm…why would someone deny themselves of some pleasure? There’s certainly a time and a place for everything, but when I get to the point to where I’d rather be deprived and miserable instead of satiated and happy, then it’s time to flip the script.


#2: Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams.

I’ll admit that there have been times in my life where I prayed for something, and pretty much every time, I got the total opposite of what I prayed for. Shit happens, and that’s that. You reap what you sow. Some people are very lucky, but most are not. It is truly a cruel world; life’s a bitch, and then you die. Game Over.


#3: Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit.

The truth of my existence is everything around me that I can experience with my own senses. I try my best to be true to others as well as myself. Most of things I know have been learned the hard way, and  I constantly and actively try to be open-minded and learn new things. People are innately contradictory and hypocritical, so I just deal with it and laugh as much as possible.


#4: Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates.

This is one of my favorites. People are pretty scummy overall; you give them an inch, and they’ll take 10,000 miles. I do nice things for people because I want to, not because I feel that I have to. You have good relationships when others feel the same way about you. Most sound relationships are based on some form of reciprocity. I avoid manipulative and narcissistic people at all costs.


#5: Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek.

I think that if more people suffered negative consequences for all of the fucked-up things they say and/or do, the world would be a much better place overall. I cannot overemphasize the importance of bud-nipping; the longer that asshole people get away with shit, the bolder and worse they become. My favorite line from the movie Goodfellas: “You got out of line, you got whacked. Everybody knew the rules.”


#6: Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires.

It happens all too often, especially in the corporate world, that some people are punished for their intelligence, industriousness, and initiative, while others are rewarded for their stupidity, laziness, and incompetence. Political Correctness also contributes heavily to this. There are many out there that are essentially vacuum cleaners who suck, suck, suck, and suck but never give anything in return.


#7: Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all.

Polar bears, tigers, sharks, and other fearsome predators perform a vital function in all of their respective ecosystems and don’t take anything more than they need, whereas humans thoroughly and utterly alter and/or destroy everything they come into contact with. The world would be better off without humans; I’ve always felt we were some kind of alien experiment that went awry.


#8: Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification.

This is the statement that I’m at the most at variance with. Just because someone CAN do something, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they SHOULD. Is it OK to kill someone? Usually not. Is it OK to steal from somebody? Usually not. Is it OK to fuck your girlfriend’s sister? Usually not. Is it OK to lie? Usually not.


#9: Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years.

No argument there. I’ve always wondered why, if God was so powerful, and evil was so bad, then why have all of the evil in the first place? Is this some kind of fucking game? Maybe I have a greatly over-simplified view of the world and the universe. I’ll probably never know.


After examining my answers, it’s safe to say that I could be a Satanist, or at least a Satanic sympathizer. I also have a funny feeling that for merely having this outlook, many supposedly “good” people would completely cancel out and/or disregard the countless good and nice things I’ve done for people in my life, whether they were close family and friends or perfect strangers, if not wanting to behead me and/or burn me at the stake. Oh well…at least I know what to be for Halloween from this point on! ; )


Jenifer Frost Added Feb 15, 2017 - 9:38pm
Heads are going to explode around here with an article like this Slade! Especially with some of the Christian nutjobs around (Ryan is back for one). Just last week one Christian fanatic here (I won't say which) tried to convince me the earth is just 5000 years ago! Like I told him, if I was going to go by religious myth for belief in creation I think I would go by my own religion, which says the age of the earth is in the billions. About the same thing science teaches. 
LaVeyen Satanism is atheistic. They only use Satan as a symbol of rebellion against the mainstream mindset. Since Western civilization is largely Christian they choose the Christian adversary as their icon. Early in the history of the Church of Satan there were theistic elements in the church. They eventually split off to form the First Church of Satan under John Allie and The Temp
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 15, 2017 - 9:40pm
The Temple of Set understand Micheal Aquino. 
I have friends in all three and was a Satanist myself in my teens for a time after my mother was murdered by a Christian fanatic. I still embrace the philosophy. 
Slade Hartman Added Feb 15, 2017 - 10:11pm
Jenifer, let them explode, a la Scanners, lol. I'm no stranger to nutty religious types of every description, but I've known a lot of good ones, too. Someone told me a couple of years ago that "religion is good for good people, and bad for bad people", which is one of the truest things I've ever heard. If anything, I'm closest to being an existentialist, and even then, not enough to accept it as an absolute truth.
Regarding so-called Satanism, I saw a lot of it growing up in the early to mid 80's, and even then, most of the practitioners of it came from middle to upper-class Catholic families and were simply rebelling against their parents. Some of the chicks were pretty hot, but overall I thought they were pretty stupid. You're right; Satanism is merely the other side of the Abrahamic coin, which is the equivalent of a wooden nickel as far as I'm concerned, lol.
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 16, 2017 - 12:12am
Slade writes "Satanism is merely the other side of the Abrahamic coin, which is the equivalent of a wooden nickel as far as I'm concerned, lol." 
I agree which is why I left them both behind and returned to my ancestoral path. That said there are a great many good (& bad) people in all religions. 
Of course for me while I dabbled in Satanism it was to rebel against the religious nutjob type that murdered my mother, definitely not against my parents, if anything it was a statement of solidarity with them.
My father, as a Kemetian, was accepting of my choice as the Kemetian faith teaches tolerance of all other inclusive faiths and cultures. Plus he figured it was a stage that would pass, and it did. I'll never regret it though, made a lot of friends as far away as Australia and Ukraine.
Encountered some nutjobs as well such as one theistic Satanism group called "The Joy of Satan" (yes the name alone screams cult) which started as a Yahoo group that tried to tie together lots of ancient religions and claim most of the pantheon leaders were of course Satan. Turned out they were secretly Nazis also, but even after being exposed their followers were so fanatically devoted that few left. And they had thousands of followers. Crazy stuff. 
Also like I said some good philosophy can be found in some branches of Satanism, in most religions actually. In LaVeyen Satanism besides the 9 Satanic Statements there is also the 9 Satanic Sins which are:
1. Stupidity
2. Pretentiousness
3. Solipsism
4. Self-Deceit
5. Herd Conformity
6. Lack of Prespective
7. Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies
8. Counterproductive Pride
9. Lack of Aesthetics
There is more also, but that's a good starting point.
I'm personally more attuned to The Temple of Set now days because Set is the Kemetian Prince of Darkness, and he's the Netjeru ("god") my husband Setnakt serves. Set and Sekhmet are both war gods BTW. The Temple of Set is a modern recreation and revisioning of the Setian philosophy. If you check their website ( you will see theirs is a very mystical metaphysical path to achieve "Xeper" or becoming. A type of spiritual enlightenment. So they are almost like a dark version of Buddhism.
Anyhow lots of interesting paths out there. I believe in studying the ones that show intelligence. 
Marsac Added Feb 16, 2017 - 12:12am
Hey Slade, I liked #5 the best. When the Goodfellas ran a neighborhood, things were peaceful. Other than the occasional whacking which the guy most likely deserved, right!!!
Slade Hartman Added Feb 16, 2017 - 12:38am
Jenifer, I think we have something in common in that your mother was murdered by a crazed person, while mine was murdered by a crazed system. Nothing I (nor probably you) want to go into at his time, but here's some of the highlights (or lowlights, take your pick) of my experiences with some good Christians:
A mother of six who was banished from her ex-husband’s God-fearing family and disowned by them for not attending their church, while the asshole drank, did drugs, and fucked around with whores.
The Christian Joy Bus, a joyfully and brightly-colored vehicle that looked like an overgrown ice cream truck that would cruise the streets of poor neighborhoods like a predatorily pious anglerfish, luring poor kids onto it with free candy and essentially kidnapping them, the sweetness of the free sweets soon turned sour by delivery to a church filled with overwrought and scary strangers reminding them that they were conceived and born in sin, and eager to warn them about the evils of abortion and sorcery and using petroleum jelly in places marked Exit Only.
The dear and sweet devoutly Christian mother of one of my friends who turned a blind eye to her husband’s routine come-ons and molestations of the drug-addicted runaway girls put in his charge.
The Protestant pair who was prepared to let their son, who was nearly decapitated in a motorcycle accident, bleed to death because it was God’s Will.
The disabled professional thief who would pontificate at length about Bible passages and Christianity while his sons burned buildings, cars, and domestic animals.
A bible belcher who left a note on the desk of a woman who was beaten up and raped, basically calling her a whore and urging her to repent.
The smarmy Christian bitch who sold pies in advance for her church, only to abscond with the money when she left without notice.
The Jesus-worshipping cunt who threw a tantrum and stormed out of the building, stomping her feet hard enough to break one of her shoes because someone else got a promotion she thought was meant for her. She was gone for a week.
Nice bunch, huh! lol
Slade Hartman Added Feb 16, 2017 - 12:42am
Marsac, I knew a dude from John Gotti's "hood" in the Ozone park area, and according to him, it was well-regulated, lol!
Greg Frehner Added Feb 16, 2017 - 12:48am
Slade & Jenifer - There are Satanists who simply follow the church of Satan and there are the real deal Satan Worshipers who go a few steps further.  Like Jenifer I studied Satanism at a younger age due to cult rumors that were surrounding my small town, and having gotten into a relationship with a true cult member though I did not know it at the time.  Despite my language I am a religious man.  And for what it is worth, I studied more than I should have, saw what was not suppose to exist and was blessed to find the answers to walk away.  It took time.  There is nothing good that can come from this.  Thats all I have to say about it. 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 16, 2017 - 1:00am
Greg there are nutjobs in every religion. I think I'll start to worry about Satanists when they have murdered +0.0001% the number of people that the Abrahamic religions have. I have a feeling our bones will be dust long before that happens. 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 16, 2017 - 1:09am
Slade your experiences sound a lot like Anton LaVey's. I've probably read all the literature the Church of Satan has put out and still have it all as reference material. And I remember reading that LaVey first began to get disillusioned with religion in general and Christianity specifically when he would see men going to whore houses, bars, and gambling joints Saturday night then the same going to church Sunday morning as if nothing happened the night before. The sheer hypocrisy is overwhelming.
And the evil that men do in the name of "God" is disgusting. From wars to child sexual abuse and more. Someone once said, "Kill a man, and you're a murderer. Kill a million, you're a king. Kill them all, God."
Slade Hartman Added Feb 16, 2017 - 1:10am
Greg, I've known a lot of fucking fuck asshole fucking fucks who besides their fucking fucked fucking fucked-up fucking language, would never fucking harm a fucking hair on fucking someone else's fucking fucked-up fucking head...on the other hand, I've known people who would go into convulsions at hearing someone's else's profane language, but wouldn't hesitate about completely destroying their lives because "they weren't decent."
Greg Frehner Added Feb 16, 2017 - 1:12am
Jenifer- Point very well taken however you cannot assume everyone has what you have.  There are far too many whose minds are weak and end up doing some sick things that fuck up the rest of their lives.  
Greg Frehner Added Feb 16, 2017 - 1:23am
BTW- Jenifer & Slade I cant begin to attempt at even imagining what it was like to have a parent taken from you in such ways.  My deepest and most genuine of caring thoughts go out to you.
Slade Hartman Added Feb 16, 2017 - 1:31am
If anything, it's the "born-again Christians" that I've learned to be wary of more than all others put together. It's been said that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel...BULLSHIT! Religion is. Go to any prison on this planet, and if you show me more a more newly-religious and utterly twisted and fucked-up group of people, I'll show you a talking mule, or the deed to the Brooklyn Bridge. lol
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 16, 2017 - 1:33am
Greg, I agree there are nutjobs in every religion. Did you know Adolf Hitler was a devout Catholic? He considered his brand of Christianity and National Socialism (ie Nazism) to be one indivisible thing. That's a pretty fanatical movement, and we see what happened. 
The cultic Satanic group I mentioned The Joy of Satan (sometimes called simply the J.O.S) is probably the most dangerous Satanic group known. I'd be surprised if the FBI isn't watching them. Here's an online description I found for them:
A psuedo satanic cult led by Andrea & Clifford Herington the ex president of the National Socialist Movement. This group slowly brainwashes "rebellious" teens with false, antisemetic, reverse christian information turning them into ignorant racist skinheads for the national socialist movement. Ironicly they don't care about skin color, only about donations & recruitment as it's their source of income.
I am crazy, self-hating, racist, & have no life so I'm with Joy of Satan.
And remember, their membership is in the thousands. 
Slade Hartman Added Feb 16, 2017 - 1:40am
Greg, thanks for your regards...that's another area where I feel some bitterness toward religious people; I took care of my step-dad and Mom for many months before they died, and in both cases never got any help from ANYBODY. I had to work a very stressful full-time job, and traveled about 300 miles a day for about two years while both of them were in a hospice, in pain and dying, while being pan-handled by various charities throughout...FUCK CHRISTIANS!
Greg Frehner Added Feb 16, 2017 - 1:49am
Where I am from the intrigue of having "power" is what draws them. And they are typically from fucked up families who are looking for anything much like Nazi youth. 
Slade Hartman Added Feb 16, 2017 - 1:59am
Recently I watched a very good documentary film called The Filth and the Fury, which was about the Sex me, it was as much about politics as much as it was about punk rock, as it explained much of the underlying causes that spawned Johnny Rotten said in effect, "People were tired of being lied to, mislead, and being used. To a powerless person, they will latch on to any power they can grab onto, and that's where we came in." Something like that, lol
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 16, 2017 - 2:03am
Greg writes "Where I am from the intrigue of having "power" is what draws them. And they are typically from fucked up families who are looking for anything much like Nazi youth. "
Yeah that sounds like the kind of kids the j.o.s. attracts. They combine (pseudo-) Satanism and Nazism. There is a ton of information on the Web about them, including Wikipedia, although their members keep trying to change the negative information to make themselves look good. Thankfully they are the exception to the rule regarding Satanists. Most intelligent people leave them once they figure out what's going on, I did. Eventually some of us ex-members got through to High Priestess Maxine's (aka Andrea Herington) right hand man High Priest Dann, who was only 17 although the "High Priestess" was having nude "meditation" sessions with him. I'm still surprised she never got into trouble for that one. 
But remember the FBI did a very intensive investigation into "Satanic Sexual Abuse" back in the 1980's and found nothing besides a few solo practitioners. No nationwide cults or the like. And people who run conspiracy websites like Concerned Citizen (which tries to say Lady Gaga and pretty much all famous singers and actors are a part of a super secret Satanic Illuminati organization) are just nuts with a big imagination and too much time on their hands. 
Greg Frehner Added Feb 16, 2017 - 2:15am
Out where I live is what used to happen to the cattle and calves that got the feds involved.   They never got anywhere.  
Slade Hartman Added Feb 16, 2017 - 2:54am
During the 1930's, the U.S. and Nazi Germany had at least one thing in common, in that they both had massive public building programs to put their people to work; both nations initiated huge public works, in addition to building up their armaments industries. While Nazi Germany's was developed more-or-less on the sly, the Americans were somewhat more open. Both German and Japanese officers who spent time in the U.S. reported to their superiors that in addition to America's huge industrial might, it could be converted to military production "at the flick of a switch."
Janie Smith Added Feb 16, 2017 - 11:33am
Satan, is actually just a proper title for "an adversary", not really meant to describe any one entity in its original Hebrew concept. 
A Satan was an adversary for God, the tester of human faith and fortitude, as the story of Job clearly shows.
Lucifer, is the light bringer, the morning star, and very much like Prometheus.  Most people who worship "Satan" are actually worshiping Lucifer as a benefactor of man. 
Abbadon, later translated as Hell, was actually just a big burning hole where they used to throw dead bodies not worthy of a more dignified ritual. 
Slade Hartman Added Feb 16, 2017 - 11:51am
Wow...I'm learning all kinds of things! Thanks Janie!
Janie Smith Added Feb 16, 2017 - 12:23pm
There is so much overlay... :-)
Slade Hartman Added Feb 16, 2017 - 12:53pm
Yeah, I never cared much for religion, however, I'm not anti-religious, and feel that people should be able to make their spiritual choices freely. I do dislike fanatics though; it's not up to them to carry out "God's Will", that's up to God. Like the drill sergeant said to Private Pyle in Full Metal Jacket; "If God wanted you up there, he would have miracled your ass up there by now, wouldn't he?" I have no faith in faith, and don't believe in beliefs, lol. 
Janie Smith Added Feb 16, 2017 - 1:40pm
I used to be pretty religious, but now I pretty much agree with you.  People need to find their own path and what works for them.  
Slade Hartman Added Feb 16, 2017 - 2:16pm
I have an acquaintance who is ideal. He's a cool dude and knows better than to try to pontificate on me, and in return I try to avoid saying things that would offend his religious sensibilities. His wife is another story. I'm always wary of the born-again types, which she is one. She has a smart mouth and a very hard look, and I'm pretty sure that before she found Jesus, she found a lot of different dicks up her ass and down her throat.
Janie Smith Added Feb 16, 2017 - 3:15pm
Slade Hartman Added Feb 16, 2017 - 3:27pm
I know, but I usually call things how I see them. I tried to be nice to her on several occasions, but eventually gave up. Whatever, nothing I haven't seen before, or will see again. I think I outdo many Christians in the whole forgive-and-forget thing, and if she ever lightened up, so would I. Some people are better off being left alone.
Dino Manalis Added Feb 16, 2017 - 3:49pm
There's plenty of evil, we see it all around us, Adam and Eve were punished by God for listening to that snake.  Both good and evil have been personified.
Janie Smith Added Feb 16, 2017 - 4:29pm
True, Slade...
Slade Hartman Added Feb 16, 2017 - 4:43pm
Dino, if someone told me a snake was talking to them, regardless of what the snake supposedly said, instead of punishing them, I would check them in to the nearest hospital. lol
I've found out that both good and evil can manifest themselves in strange and unexpected ways, and both of them trade places on occasion, lol.
Patrick Writes Added Feb 16, 2017 - 6:44pm
Is it impolite if I say the the 9 Satanic Statements sound like they were written by a 12 year old? 
Take an honorable, responsible man like George Washington. Would he have been better off, the country better off, all of us better off if he just did whatever popped into his head?
When the going got tough at Valley Forge, just head west, hang out with some Indians, start over, maybe smoke some good stuff, take a new native wife. Because man, it was just too hard and the British were going to hang him if they ever caught him, those American colonists didn't know how to fight, France was never going come in on the American side. It was just a pipe dream, man.
Or Lincoln, similar circumstances, wartime leader. Those Southerners were tough man, he lost his own son the midst of the war, just step down, let the Confederacy be. He tried real hard, it didn't work out. 
Or after the war, his plan to forgive the Southern soldiers  was an expression of 'turn the other cheek' (instead of vengeance, take all their stuff, make THEM virtual slaves until THEY can pay off the cost of the war). 
Sorry, but the 9 Satanic statements are an expression of the so-called 'original sin'. How what comes naturally to us is actually immature and simply BAD. We need to rise above our base, animal instincts, to be good individuals. We need to grow up to be good people, in my opinion. 
Anyone who's had children learn the concept of MINE comes very natural to the smallest of children when put among others. 
Slade Hartman Added Feb 16, 2017 - 7:13pm
Patrick, that's an interesting point of view. The easy way is not necessarily the best way.
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 16, 2017 - 7:37pm
Patrick writes "Sorry, but the 9 Satanic statements are an expression of the so-called 'original sin'. How what comes naturally to us is actually immature and simply BAD." 
I disagree. And since religion is entirely subjective (one can't prove the existence of any deity of any religion) my belief is as valid as yours. This whole "original sin" stuff doesn't apply in the theology of the faiths of many people around the world. I find it offensive that you present it as some "universal truth". It is not. The rules of your theology and it's myths like original sin, only apply to those who agree to believe your religion and subject themselves to it's rules. This is after all not 15th century Salem or a middle eastern Islamic theocracy, freedom of religion is the law here. And I chose not to subject myself to the rules of Abrahamic religions. So did LaVey. His is an atheist religion wherein Satan is just a symbol of defiance against the Abrahamic religions of the world. 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 16, 2017 - 7:41pm
BTW, Lucifer is a name that was added to the Bible in later additions. Lucifer is a Greek name of a Greek god that somehow appears in a biblical test which was entirely written in Hebrew (and before the Greek language or the concept of Lucifer was known). Obviously a rewrite by the Roman Catholic Church. 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 16, 2017 - 7:42pm
Biblical text not biblical test. 
Patrick Writes Added Feb 16, 2017 - 11:34pm
@Jennifer - It's a free country. Believe what you want. 
The Apostle Paul said: 
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
(Google it to see the context. It involves how love is the greatest focus for people to have in life, all other areas of endeavor are inferior.) 
A few verses before this Paul wrote:
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Compare that to the Nine Satanic Statements. 
Or Jesus who said: 
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Sacrificial love, the kind we honor in men like George Washington or the brave soldier who risks himself for others, is the highest form of maturity and love. Whatever can help us all emulate that is probably the best philosophy to embrace. 
Finally, it's something I've pondered for years. As a Christian, the secular world offers you fun. But God offers you joy. Which is better?
Heaven is pictured as a place full of joy, not fun. I'd have to say that joy is superior (the kind of feeling you get when you get on your wedding day, or hold your first child in your arms, or heck, even buy your first house). 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 17, 2017 - 12:18am
Paul was a misogynistic nutjob who plagiarized the Christ concept from the Kemetian messiah Heru Krst. If you want to know the story of Heru you probably already do since it's virtually identical to that of Jesus but was told in Ancient Egypt over 4000 years before the supposed time of Jesus. Kemetian religious texts date back to the beginning of human civilization, I tend to believe that if God wanted to reveal himself to humanity it would happen from the beginning of civilization not thousands of years later. And the proof of the antiquity of Kemetian civilization is not in question, unlike that of so called ancient Hebrews which only date back to around 2000BCE. 
Kemetian texts teach basic morality but are devoid of the various bigotrys of the Christian "god". And don't be fooled by non-Kemetian Pagan teachings, we Kemetians are not Pagans we are the world's first monotheistic faith. The so called Egyptian "gods" are known to Kemetians as the Netjeru or Aeons, Divine celestial messengers of the one true God who exists at a higher plane of existence and is beyond human understanding at our current level of evolution. Speaking of which Kemetian culture teaches to embrace technology and science and intelligence as gifts from God, it is sinful to reject them for ignorance. We accept evolution and climate science, and know that the age of the earth is 4.5 billion years as science has discovered. And as Kemetian culture has taught for thousands of years. Our oldest monuments are older than the ridiculous supposed age of the entire world according to Christian mythology. Not very logical or impressive. 
Kemetians are taught to harness our divine spark in energy manipulation called Heka, women are particularly skilled at this. It's similar to witchcraft to an uninformed outsider. Following the Bible ("do not suffer a witch to live") a Christian lunatic murdered my mother in cold blood. The evil deed of an evil man serving an evil false "god". My father, let's say, delt with the vermin. May he rot in the Hell his beliefs subjected him to. I would no sooner become a filthy Christian than a Jew would join the Nazis or a black man join the KKK. The very idea is amoral and offensive, even more so than your attempt to prescribe "original sin" on those like myself who's beliefs don't teach we are all born worthless sinners (we are not) or blame us for the alleged misdeeds of fictional ancestors like Adam and Eve. 
Kemetian religion teaches we are to better ourselves and the world around us by following the laws and regulations of Maat (Divine Justice and Balance) that by doing so and treating all fairly and justly and seeking peaceful coexistence and harmony we can achieve heaven on earth, and evolve our souls by following the example of the messiah Heru. When we die we go to paradise known as Duat. But it is not the end for us. Unlike Christians our God (God) allows our souls to evolve over time. We learn more in Duat each time we are there. While being palacial it's more of an academic place of enlightenment and a chance to meet lost loved ones again. Before our next lives wherein we reincarnate and continue the journey. Eventually, following the example of the Krst we can Ascend and transcend this world and become truly Divine sons and daughters of God in His/Her presence in the higher dimensions. I think I like that idea better than eternally worshiping a narcissistic "god" with a paranoid inferiority complex and plagiarizing apostles. And let's not also forget murderous fanatic delusional maniac followers.
(short version - I'll take a HARD PASS guy) 
Slade Hartman Added Feb 17, 2017 - 12:38am
GO Jenifer! Actually, Patrick is fairly innocuous in my book. That fucking asshole psychopath called Messano, or more accurately, MESSanal, however, is an entirely different story. I wonder which institution for the criminally insane that moron posts from. I don't know how old it is, but I'm surprised it has lived as long as it has. MESSanal is obviously the result of many fucked-up circumstances, but the fact that it has never been laid undoubtedly contributes to its twisted and warped view of the world. If anything, MESSanal is long overdue for a good ass-kicking, which I would be more than happy to do.
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 17, 2017 - 1:08am
Hmmm  Messano sounds like that slimy fucking ass-fucking-hole. Mathew Marmen! The 19th century dickhead, remember him? He's gone quiet but I'll never forget the way you chewed him a new one on Stone-Eater's Yawn article. I got it bookmarked in case I need a good laugh.
Another religious fanatic, Ryan is back. He actually had some surprisingly nice things to say about my most recent article (plus of course saying he disapproves of my morals or whatever). But we apparently agree the Russian Hacking conspiracy nonsense is a hoax! Scary us agreeing. I'm sure it won't last.
I'll keep my eyes open for this Messano, either I haven’t had the (dis)pleasure, or he didn’t leave much of an impression. Maybe he's the result of Fukushima radiation poisoning (definitely some fucked up circumstances there). 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 17, 2017 - 1:53am
Oh wait, so Ryan is Messano (*light bulb comes on*). Got it! Yes I definitely stand by my earlier assessments, all of them! Wow! 
And yeah Patrick Writes is alright. It just bothers me when someone tries to sell me their religion, especially that particular one. I would sooner listen to a Mormon or a Scientologist (same difference). 
Stephen Hunter Added Feb 17, 2017 - 7:14am
Slade, a very interesting topic and some great comments, particularly enjoying Jeninfer's . 
I attended a Primitive Baptist church in rural NB Canada, so I understand the fire and brimstone perspective. But where I am currently at with Satan/the Devil/Lucifer thing is this; we all have the devil and we all have God residing inside of us. The devil represents our ego. The propensity we have to be greedy, and not care anything about fellow humans or in the case of the religious collective ego, only the doctrine I subscribe to is correct, and everyone else is going to hell. 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 17, 2017 - 7:16pm
Stephen writes  "The devil represents our ego. The propensity we have to be greedy, and not care anything about fellow humans... " 
That's an interesting metaphysical definition.
It's Kemetian tradition to accept all other religions as at least somewhat valid. It's more than likely if a great mass of people come to believe in a godform it actually exists in some form.
So I believe am entity corresponding to the Christian deity exists as well as their heaven and hell. However I do not believe said entity is the Cosmic God or all powerful. The fact he has directly communicated with humans (like Moses) means he's an impostor. The Cosmic Deity is too enormous to fit into this puny universe let alone communicate directly with humans. He/She is as far beyond us in evolution as we are beyond a microbe. Of course He/She has always been perfect and never had to evolve. Communication with the various Netjeru has led modern Kemetians to the realization that biblegod is the creator of this universe but not the human race. He is a corruption of the Cosmic Deity which we refer to as the Demiurge, an Archon--similar to a demon or devil but created that way not "fallen". The "fallen angel, fallen human concept does not exist in Kemetian theology.
But regarding the Demiurge,  one is only subject to his rules and regulations (and heaven or hell finite afterlife) if they choose to subject themselves to his lordship. I subject myself to the Kemetian system and God almighty. 
As for Satan, we have no true equivalent. As mentioned the Netjeru Set is somewhat akin to Satan, but he serves God directly (again, no fallen angels). The Netjeru are somewhat like Judeo-Christian angels. In that regard Set is like the Satan from the book of Job who tempted Job working directly for biblegod. In the original translation that Satan was named Sammeal meaning the poison of God.
All the Satans in the Bible have actual names Satan is a title not a proper name. Lucifer was added later substituted for the name of an earthly king. The Satan of the New Testament (except Revelations) is Set. The story of Satan tempting Jesus in the desert lifted directly from the Pyramid Texts exact same story of Set tempting Heru in the desert (Set is also the Lord of the Desert).
Revelation was most likely written by a Roman Catholic monk in the fourth century as a scare tactic to gain converters, as the oldest copy only dates to the fourth century and is written in a language and style it's aledged author never knew. 
It amuses me when people try to convert me to their religions or insist only theirs is the only way. It's like someone trying to sell me a cheep ripoff handbag when I have a designer original. Hilarious really. 
Stephen Hunter Added Feb 17, 2017 - 9:21pm
Jenifer I find this fascinating, thanks for sharing.  Love the Gucci metaphor. 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 17, 2017 - 9:43pm
Thank Stephen!
I just wanted to add, as a woman I'm really shocked at how many women want to belong in the Abrahamic religions which basically treat women as so much property, like cattle! 
Kemet treated their women as equals to men. There were even female Pharaohs: 
Female Pharaohs - Including Cleopatra and Nefertiti -
Kemetians, past and present uphold the principles of Maat as previously mentioned. Maat is about balance, harmony, and equality. Maat represents the ethical and moral principle that every Egyptian citizen was expected to follow throughout their daily lives. They were expected to act with honor and truth in manners that involve family, the community, the nation, the environment, and God.
Maat as a principle was formed to meet the complex needs of the emergent Egyptian state that embraced diverse peoples with conflicting interests. The development of such rules sought to avert chaos and it became the basis of Egyptian law. 
The importance of equal treatment of all under the law was paramount. the importance of rhetorical skill, and the significance of achieving impartiality, and "righteous action". In one Middle Kingdom (2062 to c. 1664 BCE) text the Creator declares "I made every man like his fellow". 
In ancient Egypt a woman enjoyed the same rights under the law as a man. What her de jure [rightful entitlement] rights were depended upon her social class not her sex. All landed property descended in the female line, from mother to daughter, on the assumption, that maternity is a matter of fact, paternity a matter of opinion. A woman was entitled to administer her own property and dispose of it as she wished. She could buy, sell, be a partner in legal contracts, be executor in wills and witness to legal documents, bring an action at court, and adopt children in her own name. An ancient Egyptian woman was legally capax [competent, capable]. In contrast, an ancient Greek woman was supervised by akyrios [male guardian] and many Greek women who lived in Egypt during the Ptolemaic Period, observing Egyptian women acting without kyrioi, were encouraged to do so themselves. In short, an ancient Egyptian woman enjoyed greater social standing than many women of other societies, both ancient and modern.
The respect accorded to women in ancient Egypt is evident in almost every aspect of the civilization from the religious beliefs to social customs. The Netjeru ("gods") were both male and female, and each had their own equally important areas of expertise. Women could marry who they wanted and divorce those who no longer suited them, could hold what jobs they liked - within limits - and travel at their whim. The earliest creation myths of the culture all emphasize, to greater or lesser degrees, the value of the feminine principle.
Women in Ancient Egypt - Ancient History Encyclopedia -
Women and men were in virtually all matters legal and socially equals. This idea of equality and balance is widely regarded as one of the big reasons Egypt lasted longer than every other Kingdom in human history. 
Slade Hartman Added Feb 18, 2017 - 1:48pm
@ Jenifer - yeah, usually I ignore such people, but I have to lash out at them occasionally. Call me a snob, but I hate people who don't contribute anything; assholes and bitches who just show up to post negative comments and/or their unsolicited opinions.
Slade Hartman Added Feb 18, 2017 - 1:50pm
@ Stephen - that's certainly one way of looking at it. I've made a direct correlation with people who have excessive egos and excessive badness. lol
Slade Hartman Added Feb 18, 2017 - 1:53pm
Jenifer, yes, that's one thing the Abrahamic religions have in common; women get the shaft, and nothing but the shaft, in the most literal and figurative ways possible, and the more conservative and orthodox they are, the more shafting they get. 
Patrick Writes Added Feb 21, 2017 - 12:27am
@Jennifer - Heru Krst is just another name for the Egyptian god Horus. Are you kidding me? This fad is what you're pushing? 

I seriously LIKE debating religious topics and will be the first person to admit when Christianity has no answer for a topic. Or if there is an element that has little evidence, I'll say you have to take it on faith.
But Horus? This is wishful thinking at best to say there is any comparison between Horus and Jesus. This is on par with atheists who claim there is no evidence Jesus ever existed. 
Let's start with Horus's Wikipedia page: .
Horus was born to the goddess Isis after she retrieved all the dismembered body parts of her murdered husband Osiris, except his penis, which was thrown into the Nile and eaten by a catfish,[7][8] or sometimes by a crab, and according to Plutarch's account used her magic powers to resurrect Osiris and fashion a golden phallus[9] to conceive her son (older Egyptian accounts have the penis of Osiris surviving).
Once Isis knew she was pregnant with Horus, she fled to the Nile Delta marshlands to hide from her brother Set, who jealously killed Osiris and who she knew would want to kill their son.[10] There Isis bore a divine son, Horus.
According to The Contendings of Horus and Seth, Set is depicted as trying to prove his dominance by seducing Horus and then having sexual intercourse with him. However, Horus places his hand between his thighs and catches Set's semen, then subsequently throws it in the river so that he may not be said to have been inseminated by Set. Horus then deliberately spreads his own semen on some lettuce, which was Set's favorite food. After Set had eaten the lettuce, they went to the gods to try to settle the argument over the rule of Egypt. The gods first listened to Set's claim of dominance over Horus, and call his semen forth, but it answered from the river, invalidating his claim. Then, the gods listened to Horus' claim of having dominated Set, and call his semen forth, and it answered from inside Set.[21][22]
It's just like reading the Sermon on the Mount. The Wikipedia page doesn't go into the alleged "death of Horus" and apparently those to ascribe to this say that because Horus is depicted standing with his arms out, that was ancient Egyptians way of telling you he was crucified. Seriously. This is the rock-solid evidence that Jesus was simply copied from Horus.
Here is a question and answer from Richard Dawkins is a vehement atheist and the site seems to be for him and likeminded atheists. But even they say this Horus-Jesus comparison doesn't really hold any water.
Finally, it must be said, there is a genre of ancient literature called mythology. It usually includes a pantheon of gods, often involves them seducing human women who then bear half god, half man children. These guys grow up and have superpowers and often go off on a quest to prove their greatness. They may be able to descend to the underworld and return alive..sometimes bringing a dead person (or part of their body) back with them. Then they put this body part into the sky and they refer to it as a star or some natural phenomenon.
So religions share many elements of this sort of stuff with mythology. But I'd argue they are different genres of literature. 
The gospels say 'In the 7th year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius, Jesus was 30 years old and went to be baptized by John the Baptist'. (Note: John the Baptist was a historical figure who was spoken of at
Patrick Writes Added Feb 21, 2017 - 12:33am
The gospels say 'In the 7th year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius, Jesus was 30 years old and went to be baptized by John the Baptist'. (Note: John the Baptist was a historical figure who was spoken of at length by Jewish historian Josephus). Or Jesus was born when Herod the Great was alive, some dude was governing Syria, a census happened, and Caesar Augustus was ruling. Or Jesus appeared before Herod Antipas--a real historical figure, and this happened. 
So the gospels clearly claim NOT to be mythology but historical narratives. You can choose not to believe them. But if you're going to put them into the mythology camp, you have to acknowledge that, besides the claims of miracles, they actually bear little in common with mythology. There is no quest. There is no descending into the underworld. There is no retrieving of body parts of someone to put into the sky to be a star. There is no epic battle (like we have in our super hero movies). It doesn't really have a lot in common with mythology. 
Patrick Writes Added Feb 21, 2017 - 12:35am
...and it definitely has nothing in common with the Egyptian god Horus. It's ridiculous the lengths people will go to, to "prove" elements of the Bible are untrustworthy, but in trying SOOO hard to do so, it just sounds stupid. 
Peter Corey Added Feb 21, 2017 - 1:03am
"For a brief period in the late Sixties LaVey was rubbing shoulders with movie stars and Satanism took on a glamorous edge. But the brutal Manson murders changed everything"
So much for religion of "indulgence" and "gratifying one's appetites".
As for the problem of evil in a universe supposedly created and sustained by an omniscient benevolent God, the subject is known as Theodicy. It's an important subdiscipline within the larger topic of Theology.
Look it up. Maybe read a book. 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 21, 2017 - 1:19am
OK Patrick, try these then get back with me. 
Welcome to Enlightenment! – Religion: the Tragedy of Mankind. Articles by Kenneth Humphreys -
To quote the lengthy article "  The Christian faith was a vulgarised paganism, set to the theme of theJewish prophets and debased by religious intolerance." In essence Christianity is a hate group masquerading as a religion. And not very good at either. 
Did Jesus exist? -
Jim Walker absolutely debunks the Jesus myth in this extensive scholarly essay and includes detailed analysis of each of the gospels, confronts all historical claims and provides proof of the Christ myth origins in Pagan and Kemetian theology. 
If you read the latter in full there can be no doubt that making a claim for a historical Jesus is as ridiculous as making a claim for a historical Hercules. 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 21, 2017 - 1:23am
Also, from an essay my husband wrote regarding the Horus-Christ connection:
Part III; Orgins of the Christ Deity-Form of the Gods.
Jesus was referred to as the "chief cornerstone" (i.e., capstone) -
a reference to an Egyptian pyramid. The chief cornerstone of the
pyramid is same symbol for Horus, the Egyptian god and savior. Like
the Egyptian pharoah, Jesus was called a "shepherd" who rules the
nations with a staff. Horus was a popular Egyptian god who was the
son of Osiris and Isis. Osiris and Horus were both solar deities.
Osiris was the setting sun, Horus the rising sun. Jesus is the
rising Son and the morning star. The pharoah was considered to be an
incarnation of Horus (also known as "Amen-Ra," the sun god). In the
same way, Jesus is considered to be the incarnation of his heavenly
Father. Horus was the "lamb of God". Horus had an adversary named
Set. Jesus' adversary was Satan.
The story of Horus, a major Egyptian God, is told in the "Book of
Vivifying the Soul Forever" over 3000 years before the birth of
Identical Life Experiences:
1. It is written that both Horus and Jesus existed before their
2. Horus was born of the virgin Isis on December 25th in a
3. Horus' birth was announced by a star in the East and attended by
three wise men.
4. The infant Horus was carried out of Egypt to escape the wrath of
Typhon. The infant Jesus was carried into Egypt to escape the wrath
of Herod. Concerning the infant Jesus, the New Testament states the
following prophecy: "Out of Egypt have I called my son." (Matt.
5. Horus was a child teacher in the temple and was baptized by "Anup
the Baptizer" when he was thirty years old.
6. Horus had twelve disciples and performed miracles such as feeding
bread to the multitude and walking on water.
7. Horus raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.
8. Horus transfigured on a mount.
9. Horus also had titles such as the "way, the truth, the light, the
Messiah, God's anointed Son, the Son of Man, the good shepherd, the
lamb of God, the Word, the Morning Star, Prince of Peace, the light of
the world."
10. He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the lamb, lion and
fish 'Ichthys'.
11. Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son"
of "Ptah," the "Father."
12. Horus was called "KRST," or "Anointed One."
13. Horus was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.
14. The adoration of the Virgin and Child is connected with both the
adoration of Isis and the infant Horus and the adoration of Mary and
infant Jesus. In the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby
Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis, the original "Madonna
and Child."
15. Concerning the writing of the Gnostics, C. W. King, a noted
English author, says: "To this period belongs a beautiful sard in my
collection, representing Serapis,...whilst before him stands Isis,
holding in one hand the sistrum, in the other a wheatsheaf, with the
legend: 'Immaculate is our lady Isis,' the very term applied
afterwards to that personage who succeeded to her form, her symbols,
rites, and ceremonies" (Gnostics and Their Remains, p. 71).
16. Osiris, Isis, and Horus are the principal trinity of the
Egyptian religions. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy
Spirit is the Christian trinity. Dr. Inman affirms the Egyptian
roots of the Christian trinity "The Christian trinity is of Egyptian
origin, and is as surely a pagan doctrine as the belief in heaven
and hell, the existence of a "devil", of archangels, angels, spirits
and saints, martyrs and virgins, intercessors in heaven, gods and
demigods, and other forms of faith which deface the greater part of
modern religions" (Ancient Pagan and Modern Christian Symbolism, p.
17. For thirty centuries the Egyptians had been familiar with the
conception of a triune God. There was hardly a city of any note
without its particular triads. Here it was Amum, Maut, and Khonso;
there Osiris, Isis, and Horus. (Intellectual Development, Vol. I, p.
18. Views of the Trinity, in accordance with Egyptian tradition,
were established. Not only was the adoration of Isis under a new
name restored, but even her image standing on the crescent moon
reappeared. The well-known effigy of that goddess, with the infant
Horus in her
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 21, 2017 - 1:25am
18. Views of the Trinity, in accordance with Egyptian tradition,
were established. Not only was the adoration of Isis under a new
name restored, but even her image standing on the crescent moon
reappeared. The well-known effigy of that goddess, with the infant
Horus in her arms, has descended to our days in the creations of the
Madonna and Child. (Conflict, p. 48).
19. There are two stories connected with Horus that is analogous to
stories found in the Old Testament. The hiding of the infant Horus
in a marsh by his mother undoubtedly parallels the story of the
hiding of the infant Moses in a marsh by his mother. When Horus
died, Isis implored Ra, the sun, to restore him to life. Ra stopped
his ship in mid-heaven and sent down Thoth, the moon, to bring him
back to life. The stopping of the sun and moon by Isis recalls the
myth of the stopping of the sun and moon by Joshua.
(See: )
(Also see:,%20D.D..pdf )
Since you like Wikipedia here is this also:
Jesus in comparative mythology - Wikipedia -
[the end] 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 21, 2017 - 1:39am
P.S. A more detailed site with better information on Heru/Horus than Wikipedia (actually pretty much any source is better than Wikipedia unless you are looking for unverified trivia):
Horus - Crystalinks -
It's not exactly scholarly, but it is accurate and very detailed. Understandable to the layman. 
Patrick Writes Added Feb 21, 2017 - 6:36pm
@Jenifer - There is no virgin birth (it's right there in the most accepted version of Horus in Wikipedia, his mother conceived from her resurrected husband, minus his penis, so she crafted a gold phallus for his resurrected body), there is no crucifixion, there is no resurrection in common. All the other minor similarities between Horus and Jesus seem to be made up as well.
Check this generally accepted version of Horus as well (first hit on Google of "did horus die and resurrect") that Horus never was resurrected like Jesus.
The Trinity existed in ancient Egypt...oh really? Is that why Christian writers in the Roman times had to make up a word, "the trinity" (which comes from LATIN which was the Roman language of the time) to describe the essence of the Christian God. Ancient Egypt, when they were building the pyramids, was over 2000 years before this. If the concept existed, they wouldn't have had to make up a word.
You can believe this if you want. I believe a lot of things on faith in the religion that I follow. But I also acknowledge it. You're trying to claim mountains of evidence where none exist. 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 21, 2017 - 6:44pm
Look Patrick, I do not accept Wikipedia as a scholarly resource because it is not. And trying to say some DoucheBag on Wikipedia has theistic authority over the Kemetian holy scriptures besides being sacrilege is simply unacceptable ignorant nonsense. I'm very disappointed in you. Quit trying to re-educate me on my own beliefs. This isn't my hobby it's my culture and heritage. Why don't you go re-educate some Jews about the Tanaka or the Holocaust while you are trying to tell people what they really believe. Pathetic and insultingly ridiculous. 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 21, 2017 - 6:53pm
Also reread parts 14-18 you moron blasphemous asshole and maybe try checking out an actual book, like the ones listed and learn something from the experts instead of your fellow scumbag idiots on Wikipedia. My husband is a historian and my father an Egyptoligist, I am a legally ordained Kemetian Priestess, I think together we know a lot more about our own culture and beliefs than some racist fuck on Wikipedia. The very fact that you act as if the Madonna and Child does originate with Isis and Horus proves you are a useless moron throwing infantile shit seeing if something will stick. This is BASIC stuff! 
Patrick Writes Added Feb 21, 2017 - 7:03pm
By the way, regarding this 'Jesus never existed' fad right now. In a few sentences I'll tell you why it was impossible. 
Four guys writing (the gospel writers) in the 1st century A.D. all have to make up the same tale of the same guy and agree with each other on ALL the elements. That's extremely hard to do. And they have to agree with the Apostle Paul (who quotes the words of Jesus in a number of his letters, most of which date to the MIDDLE the 1st century A.D.). 
Paul was clearly a bit of a renegade. So now that's 5 different writers, one of which who was writing from a different location from Israel writing the same theology, quoting the non-existent Jesus who all have to agree. That's REALLY hard to pull off. 
But that's not all. Jesus has to fulfill numerous Old Testament prophecies. I'll list some of the main ones below. AND he has to say some of the greatest words of all time on top of it. 
1) Virgin birth
2) Will be born in Bethlehem, yet have eternal (or ancient) origins
3) Descendant of David (Jesus was on father and mother's side)
4) Come from tribe of Judah
5) Be killed in his prime
6) Hands and feet would be pierced
7) Bones would not be broken
8) Die among criminals
9) But be buried among the rich
10) Make himself known by riding a donkey (a humble animal)
11) Be rejected by the people
12) A messenger would precede him (who was John the Baptist)
13) A massacre would happen at his birth
14) He's spend a season of his life in Egypt
15) Money used to betray him would be used to buy a potter's field
16) Clothes would be taken and won in gambling game by others
17) He would be forsaken by God
18) His life would be a sacrifice for sin (and remove the sin of the people in a single day) 
19) But he will be a victorious king 
20) He will bring peace to the world
That's not to mention that the Old Testament prophesied hundreds of years before Jesus that there would be a victorious, mighty Messiah and a suffering servant Messiah, the point that many Jews of Jesus day thought there would be 2 Messiahs.
The New Testament resolves this problem easily, stating there is one Messiah but he'll come twice. The first time as the suffering servant and the second time as the victorious king. 
As far as I'm concerned, the inventing of a guy that never existed called Jesus and getting the stories, words, theology just to agree among the 5 chief writers of the New Testament AND getting him to fulfill so many prophecies is already impossible.
But then you have to get the hyper-religious, monotheistic Jews who are living at the same time (the earliest of Paul's letters date to the 50's A.D., certainly within living memory of these events) to accept it and spread it around the Greek world (granted MOST Jews did reject it, but the first adherents were obviously Jews, and they were who took it to the Gentiles). 
It's frankly impossible, so impossible I'm surprised anyone would give this 'Jesus never existed' theory the time of day. 
It's far more likely that a guy did exist who the Romans crucified named Jesus and the stories that popped up and the writings actually originated from him. That is far, far more likely. 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 21, 2017 - 7:35pm
You are a complete 
Idiot lunatic religious fanatic Patrick, wow! Every single bit of what you just rambled on about was completely debunked by Jim Walker at no Every bit except the raving prophecy gibberish, but belief is subjective. An historical Jesus is no more a reality than an historical Hercules. The article proves all that. I doubt you even read it.
Do me a favor and don't reply to me ever again. I'll do you the same favor. Anti-intellectual idiots who are divorced from reality like you are a pointless waste of time to talk to, and dangerous in general being out of touch with reality. Go believe what you want and I'll do the same.
Unlike you I won't ignore proof of mythical religious characters not being historical people, nor will I try to tell you or anyone else what they really believe (as opposed to what the Holy scriptures of their faith teaches). Good bye. 
Patrick Writes Added Feb 21, 2017 - 7:40pm
To those who say "Jesus never existed" they also have to throw out all the writings of Jewish historian Josephus too.
Josephus spoke of the existence of Jesus, Jesus's brother James (the leader of the church in Jerusalem), and John the Baptist.
Also, it appears that Jesus shows up in the Jewish religious records of the time, the Talmud. Do you have to throw those out as well? 
Check it out:
How about the persecution of Christians in Rome by Emperor Nero in the 60's A.D. (documented by 2 secular, Roman historians)? Was that invented as well? 
These "Jesus never existed" folks claim the New Testament wasn't even written until 100 years later. So who were these Christians that Nero was persecuting 100 years before they even agreed what this made-up religion was going to be (which was 30 years after Jesus's life, certainly within living memory, they were killed for being a new, distinct religion from Judaism with unfamiliar practices). 
Or Google Roman Magistrate Pliny the Younger who wrote to the Emperor of Christians in his jurisdiction around 100 A.D. Who were these Christians if the religion wasn't fully invented yet (no scriptures to think of yet)? 
The "Jesus never existed" folks haven't a leg to stand on as far as I'm concerned. 
Patrick Writes Added Feb 21, 2017 - 7:51pm
Jewish historian Jospehus:
He even comments on the death of Jesus's brother James (who the New Testament said was the leader of the church in Jerusalem at the time of Paul). 
This is what Josephus wrote: 
"...brought before them [the Sanhedrin] the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned"
Josephus on John the Baptist: 
"Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man:" 
Josephus on Jesus [best guess based on Arabic translations, removing likley Christian monks interference]: 
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
Patrick Writes Added Feb 21, 2017 - 7:58pm
@Jennifer - your own "Jesus never existed" link says this: 
Virtually all other claims of Jesus come from sources outside of Christian writings. Devastating to the claims of Christians, however, comes from the fact that all of these accounts come from authors who lived after the alleged life of Jesus. Since they did not live during the time of the hypothetical Jesus, none of their accounts serve as eyewitness evidence.
Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus' birth in 37 C.E. (well after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus), puts him out of range of an eyewitness account. Moreover, he wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E., after the first gospels got written! Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay.
Pliny the Younger (born: 62 C.E.) His letter about the Christians only shows that he got his information from Christian believers themselves. Regardless, his birth date puts him out of range as an eyewitness account.
Tacitus, the Roman historian's birth year at 64 C.E., puts him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44), which he wrote around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although many have disputed the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happened after the alleged Jesus and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, shows that his writing can only provide us with hearsay accounts.
Suetonius, a Roman historian, born in 69 C.E., mentions a "Chrestus," a common name. Apologists assume that "Chrestus" means "Christ" (a disputable claim). But even if Seutonius had meant "Christ," it still says nothing about an earthly Jesus. Just like all the others, Suetonius' birth occurred well after the purported Jesus. Again, only hearsay.
Talmud: Amazingly some Christians use brief portions of the Talmud, (a collection of Jewish civil a religious law, including commentaries on the Torah), as evidence for Jesus. They claim that Yeshu in the Talmud refers to Jesus. However, this Yeshu, according to scholars depicts a disciple of Jehoshua Ben-Perachia at least a century before the alleged Christian Jesus or it may refer to Yeshu ben Pandera, a teacher of the 2nd centuy CE. Regardless of how one interprets this, the Palestinian Talmud didn't come into existence until the 3rd and 5th century C.E., and the Babylonian Talmud between the 3rd and 6th century C.E., at least two centuries after the alleged crucifixion. At best it can only serve as a controversial Christian or Jewish legend; it cannot possibly serve as evidence for a historical Jesus.
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 21, 2017 - 8:30pm
OK, for everyone except Patrick. Judge for yourself! Read all of the arguments and links Patrick provided, then go to
Did Jesus exist? - target="_blank">
Jim Walker absolutely debunks the Jesus myth in this extensive scholarly essay. It's about an hour read but well worth your time. It addresses and debunks every single argument Patrick made. Every single one. Of course if he would have read it he would know this, but information is scary when you are brainwashed into not being able to tell the difference in religious beliefs and historical reality. Or when you think Wikipedia is a scholarly resource.... 
Simple as that. 
Slade Hartman Added Feb 21, 2017 - 8:51pm
Here's my general viewpoint on religion:
ALL RELIGIONS ARE WRONG. ALL OF THEM. ABOUT EVERYTHING. Don't trust them. Don't believe in them. Most important, don't give them your money. If it wasn't for these various religions, the world would be a much, much, much better place to live. The vast majority of bloodshed, conflict, and general misery that has existed since their respective advents can be placed firmly at their feet. Of all of them, Christianity is BY FAR the worst. Everything from the Crusades, to the Spanish Inquisition, to the rape and conquest of the New World, to slavery, to Manifest Destiny, and, and, and, and, can be directly attributed to cross-worshipping, hypocritical Christian assholes, extortionists, plunderers, thieves, and murderers.
"A man needs religion like a fish needs a bicycle." So true, unless the purpose of the religion is to exploit and subjugate others. Then, and only then, does it start to make perfect sense. Besides certain governments, various religions are among the largest extortion and shakedown schemes in all of human history, and make the most ruthless and vicious criminal gangs and syndicates look like rank amateurs. I read somewhere that Christianity is making people feel guilty about the air they breathe, and then charging them for it. RIGHT ON! Samuel Johnson said that patriotism was the last refuge of a scoundrel. BULLSHIT. RELIGION is the last, if not the very FIRST refuge of scoundrels. Been to a prison lately?
Although I've never fell for this crap, I've lived my life far more virtuously than most others that believe in all of this silly hocus-pocus. I have no faith in faith, and I don't believe in beliefs, but I've always respected other people's rights to do so. But, rather than being true Christians and helping me "see the light," or at least attempting to understand my viewpoints, or the viewpoints of others, they simply belch out biblical bullshit. Their distinctly NON-CHRISTIAN, twisted and demented views have drove me in the completely opposite direction. Idiots like them will condemn remote Pacific Islanders who have never even heard of Jesus to go straight to hell, regardless of what good and nice people they would be, if not introduced to their savage and evil cult. Judge away, you sanctimonious jerkoffs, from my perspective, it is people like them who already live in a self-created Hell, in addition to whatever other Hells they are destined for. Right here, right now. If you're even reading this, it proves that you're a hypocrite. Shouldn't you be out somewhere else, helping the poor, or praying? What the fuck are you doing here anyway? To be fair, I think the world's big enough for everybody, at least for the time being. MOVE TO AMISH COUNTRY! NO TV'S! NO PORN! NO NOTHING, BUT HARD WORK AND THE BIBLE! WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR! There! lol
Patrick Writes Added Feb 22, 2017 - 12:46am
@Jennifer - I don't believe your link because it's nonsense. 
This is the same playbook people have worked from for centuries. Set an impossibly high standard for Christianity to meet and when it fails to meet it, say it's all made up.
Do you realize that, by this same standard you've set, you'd have to conclude that Mohammed never existed, Socrates never existed, Buddha never existed. They never wrote anything down themselves. Only after they died their followers compiled their words and teachings (well after they're gone). They were religious figures, not kings or generals. Nobody made a statue or painting of these guys in their lifetime so we don't know what they looked like. 
How do you know other historical figures existed? St. Patrick? Or Joan of Arc? Or St. Francis of Assissi, Leif Erikson?
Well somebody wrote something down that some person did such and such a thing and it's memorable because of X.
Jesus has 4 accounts of his life written by different guys. And a 5th indirect one in Paul's many letters (which make up most of the New Testament) that quote Jesus words in the gospels. The earliest of Paul's letters dates to the 50's A.D. which is within 20 years of Jesus's life. 
(Your link says life expectancy in 1st century Palestine was 29 years then so nobody would be alive 20-30 years later to verify claims of the New Testament writers...that is really stupid. Do I have to explain why? Infant mortality for much of human history has been such that about half or more of children born don't survive into adulthood. That skews the "life expectancy" way down. But the average adult living at the time would probably have lived at lest into their late 30's / early 40's. Jesus's mother Mary was still alive when he was in early his 30's. She'd have to have been in her mid to late 40's. And all it takes is one old guy in a village to say "Hey, that's not right, I remember that, that's not how it went" to throw the claims of some guy making stuff up regarding something that happened 20-30 years earlier. Seriously, how stupid do you think people were in the Roman Empire? I was a kid in the 80's, that was 30 years ago, if somebody made wild claims that weren't true about the 80's, I would know because I was a kid then and remember it like it was yesterday.)
And moving on from the bible writers themselves, about 60-70 years after Jesus, you have numerous documents coming out from a number of Jewish or secular sources writing about events from the 1st century (Tacitus and Seutonius of the Nero persecution of Christians in Rome in the 60's A.D.), Pliny the Younger writing to the Roman Emperor of the Christians in his jurisdiction, Josephus the Jewish Historian, likely the Jewish Talmud.
And here's something to make your head spin. Emperor Nero basically spent his time partying (fighting as a gladiator, acting in plays, just being a bad ruler overall). How would he even know or care of a new religious cult in Rome? He probably wouldn't. 

But in the New Testament in Acts, it ends with Paul awaiting his trial before Caesar (and on the ship ride there, says Paul was told by God he would stand before Caesar). It's hard to know EXACTLY when this took place whether the emperor was Claudius or Nero, but it's likely it was before Nero based on statements made by later church fathers like Jerome. 
So Nero knew about the Christians likely because Paul stood before him to testify of them. And that's how the first persecution broke out later where Nero arrested them, put them to death, cruelly burnt them in his gardens to be fuel for the lights. 
How much proof do you need (to at least acknowledge these people existed)? Videotape? As I stated earlier, it's actually harder to argue that Jesus never existed than it is to say that he did and said some stuff, people wrote it down, and he was crucified by the Romans. 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 22, 2017 - 1:06am
As I said, let people read both the crap you posted as well as the data at my link, all of which is backed by scholarly resources. Not just Wikipedia hacks like you use to tell others what you want them to believe. If you are so sure of your ridiculous historical revisionist garbage what could you possibly have against letting people decide for themselves? The fact that is such a huge issue with you speaks volumes. 
And no I don't but any of your sad pathetic arguments above either. As the article proves, there is more evidence of an historical Hercules. 
Of course personally I wouldn't believe anything coming from a slandering blasphemous scumbag like you Patrick. It's bad enough you are a historical revisionist, but you have the nerve to insult my millenniums old faith with lies from Wikipedia. Useless historical revisionist Wikipedia that would make my people out to be Pagans and ignore what our 3000 year old holy texts say in favor of fiction by some loser living in his parents basement. Maybe I should play your games and start calling make believe Jesus the son of a slut whore that no one knows the parentage of, would you like that?
But this is the kind of zero credibility trash you associate with quality information, again it speaks volumes about you. I'll stand behind my scholarly backed sources and you can stand behind your no life no credibility hacks that invent a bunch of ridiculous alt history nonsense and pathetic excuses to cover up outright fiction. 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 22, 2017 - 1:10am
....also what part of don't post to me again didn't you understand moron? You must think this is trolls beat. Patrick the troll religious fanatic lunatic historical revisionist can't take a hint. How sad is that? 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 22, 2017 - 2:53am
Slade, I'm starting to believe maybe you are right and perhaps it (religion) should all be jettisoned. It is not you however but rather Patrick who is persuading me of that. The level of crazy, illogical irrationally is something to behold. Quite frightening actually. Like a disease ridden mind. The craziness is worse than I've ever seen before, actually trying to correct me on my own ancestral briefs. Most I've seen before were crazies telling me that the devil saw the future and told my ancestors about it, but never someone such a detached from reality lunatic as to pretend that our ancient texts don't matter with regard to our beliefs. The crazy is the next level of crazy. Makes me wonder what evil could so corrupt a mind to this degree of absolute insanity. Reminds me of the stories of H. P. Lovecraft and the Outer Gods who's alien presence drives men insane. I know I sure as hell don't want to become infected with this kind of madness. 
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 22, 2017 - 1:13pm
Patrick the article already goes into the difference of how we know through actual evidence and firsthand accounts of the validity of actual historical figures unlike Jesus who is just a figment of the imagination, fictional character of hearsay accounts at best. 
And AGAIN your fear of simply allowing others to read the trash you posted and compare it to what I did pretty well exposes you as a perpetrator of a fraud who's afraid to be found out. And fit the record I posted two links not one (biblegod swine can't count to two apparently) the main one has over FIVE DOZEN links within the over an hour long article to backup it's claims. 
Also it really shows your complete lack of character insulting the basic doctrines of my faith then complaining about being tired of not being able to insult others beliefs with impunity. Until now I have gave you a break from similar treatment but you have went beyond the limit of my patience!
Why should I have patience with a petulant child member of a petulant child fake "religion" that is nothing but a demon worshiping hate-group perversion rip-off of my original faith? Your make believe Christ is just a son of a whore who's Hell spawn father (the Demiurge) is a shell, or as the Jews would say a Qlipoth or demonform imitation of the Divine. You are beneath me and us all. Go suck some cocks to practice for Hell, your master will have plenty to reward you with when you arrive. Troll scum. Keep pushing asshole! I'll just push back ten times harder!!! 
Slade Hartman Added Feb 22, 2017 - 4:25pm
Jenifer, I read somewhere that religion is like masturbation in that it is something best practiced alone. That's why I hate politics and religion; someone is always trying to convince you that whatever it is, they're right and you're wrong, unless you try to become more like them. I usually want to take a pipe wrench and a blowtorch to the ones that say I'm going to burn in hell unless I worship Jesus. I have exactly one Christian acquaintance, and he's a good dude. He knows better than to break out his religious stuff around me, and I try to be mindful of saying things that I'm pretty sure will get his religious goat. His wife is a fucking bitch, but that's another story, lol.
Jenifer Frost Added Feb 22, 2017 - 5:03pm
Slade you would think saying, believe what you want and I'll do the same, as I have here, would be enough. But apparently not! I have one good Christian friend also, specifically Catholic. He's fascinated by the commonality in his belief and mine, not intimidated. Goes to show the difference in secure and insecure people.
What Christian converter trolls don't get is even if they convinced me of their mythology I would sooner serve their Satan than their "god" given how my family and friends and myself have been treated by their gods servants. I've had my fill of the nonsense.
Only thing that particularly bothers me is when they are historical revisionists on top of religious fanatics. One is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions, but not their own facts. 
Slade Hartman Added Feb 22, 2017 - 5:53pm
Yes, as I listed earlier, I've encountered more than my share of diabolical, demented, twisted, and warped Christians. Like many other people out there, they refuse to let the truth get in the way of a good story, especially one that is blatantly absurd, ridiculous and self-serving.