What will hapen to Liberals?

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I am a Conservative (not to be confused with a Republican) person who is mostly happy with the fact Conservative values are starting to see some daylight in the last few years but I wanted to take a moment and consider what has become to our Liberal friends.  Of course I am talking about actual Liberals, not Democrats. 

 

It seems as if they are trapped.  Trapped in a prison of their own making.  I actually have great respect for true Liberals and their wonderful and needed involvement in American politics prior to the Clinton Democrat taking over.  But today the modern Democrat has pushed Liberals into painting themselves into a corner.  Corporate Democrats keep them in line the same way they kept Republicans off balance for so many years before Trump, name calling/shame tactics.

 

They have to vote for Hillary, the least Liberal professional politician in history, or they are against Women, or they are racists, or they are against climate change, etc.  One shame tactic after another to keep actual Liberals in line.  We could make a pretty good argument that Trump is actually more Liberal than Hillary Clinton but Liberals can't choose their leadership based on how closely they match their political beliefs anymore, they must toe-the-line or be labeled as racists, bigots, misogynists, traitors, etc.

 

After the massive beating Democrats took over the last 8 years, losing over 1,000 elections, the House, the Senate, and now the presidency you would think that the Democratic party would consider the only candidate they had this last cycle where people were excited to support him, Bernie, but no, after the trouncing they went to Washington as usual, establishment leaders to maintain the status quo.  They kept Pelosi, replaced Reid with Schumer another old time establishment Democrat, and just elected Tom Perez as the heard of the DNC, another establishment "Clinton" Democrat.

 

What is a Liberal to do when there is zero representation in their party leadership and they are trapped to forever support the party?

 

For a short time I actually thought Liberals could choose to support the Green party but if they could not get 5% of the vote with Hillary Clinton as the Democrat nominee, I do not see them as ever being a viable alternative.  So what will happen to Liberals?

 

Yes, I am Conservative, and I am fairly happy that Democrats have been beat pretty soundly, but I also believe we need a strong two (or more) party system to keep everyone honest.  I was holding out hope that the beating Democrats took recently would force them to change and allow Liberals to come back to power in the Democratic party but instead of learning from their loss they have doubled down on the corporate Democrat model and charged ahead not learning a single thing from their defeats. 

 

So I am asking you readers, what can Liberals do?  Are they domed to obscurity?  Is there a future for Liberals? 

Comments

Dino Manalis Added Mar 3, 2017 - 8:47am
They're desperate sour grapes who constantly react, but never act to bring the country together and work with the new administration to achieve positive results to make America better!
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 3, 2017 - 8:51am
Well sure that is the state of the Democratic party right now, still stuck in the 2nd stage of grief (and some still the 1st) but my main concern right now is what is to happen to real Liberals?  What is their future?  Democrats who are in charge are not Liberals, but still the vast majority of Liberal voters still obediently vote for them, so what is the point of holding Liberal beliefs if you are only allowed to vote for Democrats?
Jeff Jackson Added Mar 3, 2017 - 9:15am
Well, Louis, there's always the Jim Jones option, where the Clintonians could find some rainforest and settle there with their followers, and then, when investigated by federal authorities, pass out the Kool-aid. Of course, actually moving would be too much for the Clintons, but they could pretend to care (one of their great abilities) from a nice air-conditioned office close to all the modern comforts that they so deserve, as well as being close to their corporate contributors. Or they could skip the migration and just get together and do the Kool-aid thing. The Democrats are doubling-down on their ideology, but, really, what options do they have? 
Theirs (Democrats) is a failed ideology, and they are selecting the stalwarts of that ideology to lead them, and that will not bring progress, only, as stated, doubling-down on failed policy that was driven by a failed ideology. It cannot be said that Trump is following the Republican ideology of those candidates before his run for the presidency, and you see how the Republican hard-liners denied his version of what Republicans should do and be. But even the party chairman has sided with Trump. The Dems need a new leader, one who can temper the ridiculous politically correct ideology that has failed them so miserably. The Dems need a Moses who can lead them to the promised land, but that Moses doesn't seem to be anywhere around.
The big reason for that is that the Democrats are still following people like Shumer and Pelosi, the very people that led them into the wilderness, and will never lead them out because of their smug, self-righteous indignation against anyone who has the nerve to challenge them. The party is over. Turn out the lights. Until they fire the coaches, they will not be in the game. Period.
Kate Moss Added Mar 3, 2017 - 9:42am
You write about liberals as if they actually had any input in USA politics. Liberals have not been heard from in the USA for almost 70 years. There are almost a dozen liberal political parties in the USA, none of them with more than a few thousand members.
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 3, 2017 - 10:14am
Kate I suppose it all comes down to how you are trying to define Liberals.  Prior to the Bill Clinton period, Liberals were very strong and deeply involved in Union members (not just Union leaders) civil rights, women's rights, etc.  But around the time of Bill Clinton a new breed of Democrat was born, Bill said himself he wanted to position himself just a fraction of an inch to the left of the Republicans so he could guarantee himself votes from anyone to the left of the Republicans, all the in the middle, and all on the far left.  Clinton gobbled up everyone and the Corporations, Bankers, and Wall Street took notice and the money started to flow.
 
Until the day Bernie Sanders entered the picture, suddenly Liberal values and beliefs started to be dusted off and worn again, and proudly, I never saw such happy Democrat voters in my lifetime as I saw when I went to a Bernie Sanders rally.  I was actually inspired to follow the man and his speeches, of course I did not agree with him on most of his stands but I respected him as a person and more importantly, was energized to see such happy Americans supporting him and being positive and hopeful and excited for a change, but sadly, it was not meant to be.  the establishment and the media crushed that happiness and we saw the hateful, name calling, unhappy masses come out to carry Hillary Clinton on their backs.
 
Sad.
Bryan Hampton Added Mar 3, 2017 - 10:40am
Considering the destruction that George W Bush did to our economy, world status and military, I don't have any hope that Drumpf will improve things.  Conservative ideals, like deregulation, have failed miserably, ask the people of Charleston, WV, whose water supply was completely contaminated by a chemical leak from a plant that wasn't inspected since 1991.  Or even closer to home in my state of NC, where Duke Power ruined the Dan River with a coal ash spill and then wanted to increase our power rates to pay for the clean up.  Republicans only care about the rich and corporations that fund them, they have shown that over and over.  And for the record, I'm an Independent, I make decisions on issues, not on ideology.  For example, I am pro-choice and pro-gun.  I am for government staying out of our private lives, but I want them watching business like a hawk, especially businesses that could harm us, like chemical companies, power companies, etc.  Would you really want to live next to an unregulated nuclear plant?  Also, I hate political correctness, but if you think that means you can throw racial slurs around, I will call you out on that.  Liberals need to get back to their roots in order to survive and one of the reasons that Hillary failed is because she was more concerned about being the first woman President and less concerned with the issues that liberals care about.  Bernie should have been the candidate and Democrats paid dearly for the DNC screwing him over.
Cliff M. Added Mar 3, 2017 - 11:03am
The true liberals are still there and supported Sanders. The corporate,establishment democrats did their best to freeze him out of the nomination at their own demise. The conservatives are in a similar situation by doing their best to obstruct anything any moderate republicans attempt. The conservatives hold a lot of sway currently. Whether or not they are capable of anything more than obstruction and squeezing more blood out of the middle class majority remains to be seen.The defining moment in politics now is whether the conservatives and Trump can reach middle ground on issues that have so greatly affected the middle class. Most Trump voters did not vote him in to protect and further enhance the wealth of the top income and corporate class.Distain of more of the same was the main issue.Whether Democrat or Republican.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 3, 2017 - 11:07am
Billy Roper kindly shared an article quoting an author who posited you'll be stacking them like cord wood. 
Aaron P Added Mar 3, 2017 - 12:18pm
@Louis
Poll after poll has shown that the majority of Americans support liberal values. For example, even 85% of NRA members support universal background checks for guns....but somehow that doesn't translate into legislation.
 
The reason conservatives have hung onto power is due to gerrymandering and FOX News.
 
Also, have you seen the way millennials voted? That's the future of our country right there.
 
@Bryan
Exactly. Not to mention the Flint water crisis virtually created by Republican governor Snyder when he gave Nestle permission to bottle the drinkable water sources in Michigan. The pro-business mentality that Republicans have espoused has got to go. I believe that a fair balance could be made where Republicans can be pro-business without doing so at the expense of others. Which is why I like Arnold Schwarzenneger's approach to climate change.
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 3, 2017 - 1:13pm
Bryan, using childish names like "Drumpf" shows you are indeed pretty far left, name calling is a tool of the left.  Republicans do not believe in zero regulations as you claim, and the most harmful deregulation we have seen in recent history was done by those moderate Republicans and corporate Democrats you seem to love so much.  Remember the banking/housing crisis?  Created by moderates and signed into law by Bill Clinton.  Welfare reform and crime bills that sent massive numbers of Blacks to prison to be warehoused, NAFTA that sent millions of American jobs to Mexico and other Nations, etc, so if that is what we get with moderate politicians I want no part of it.
 
But I notice you dodged the actual topic of my post and started attacking Republicans on a personal level. typical.
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Cliff, how can Republicans be obstructing anything now?  They are the majority, the only people obstructing now are Democrats.  They cried about Republicans stopping their agenda but now Democrats are the party of "NO".  They have become exactly what they claimed to hate...... as usual.
 
Trump was elected to secure the southern border, start re-establishing the rule of law in America, work to renegotiate trade deals that are hurting America, and to improve the economy.  If Trump does these main things he will win his re-election easily, if not he will be tossed out on his ear.
 
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Aaron, yes, most Americans support background checks, but where you miss the point is we never got a "clean" background check Bill to support, as usual what killed the last Bill was nasty little amendments that were lining up to transform that Bill into a horrible mess so even many Democrats refused to back it.
 
Democrats lost over 1,000 elections because they refuse to connect with normal Americans.  Many studies have shown gerrymandering had nothing to do with it, and FOX is an extremely tiny player in the game, stop with the excuses and blaming others for the failures of the Democratic party to connect with average Americans.
 
 
But even if gerrymandering does make a difference according to your far left sources, what do you propose to do about it?  Cry?  Both Republicans and Democrats benefit from gerrymandering, the last serious study I saw from an independent source showed only a 3 seat Republican advantage in the Senate and 12 seat advantage in the House, so outside of those seats, what is the excuse?  You lost over 1,000 elections, Republicans are not Gods, if you had a message that resonated with voters you could beat them easily, but your identity politics and name calling can only get you so far.
 
Then you have to actually start doing something real.  Why do you think private sector Union members who voted for Obama twice suddenly voted for Trump?  That is not gerrymandering, that is losing connection with the people.
 
 
Cliff M. Added Mar 3, 2017 - 1:20pm
Louis, The conservatives are threatening to obstruct their own party with there my way or the highway approach.
Tys Sniffen Added Mar 3, 2017 - 1:32pm
Well, to attempt to answer your title question - from my perspective, the only thing liberals can do is continue to be liberal, and attempt to explain why that system is best for everyone, and actually agrees with a majority of the country already. (see what Aaron wrote above).  
 
What we (us liberals, and all who care about the country and our fellow humans) need to do is place the conversation in the terms 'of the other side', rather than stooping to the name calling and false arguments that has worked so well for the right-wing of talk radio and Fox news.
 
To that end, I won't bother trying to deal with your side-swipes at previous democratic leadership and straw man arguments about how everyone gets called a racist.  Instead, I'd like to ask, as someone who says they are a (true) conservative, why you think these recent republican election successes are good for the country, from a conservative point of view?  
 
Tax give-aways to wealthy corporations so that infrastructure maintenance gets put off for decades; choking education funding so that less people have opportunities into the future; spending vast amounts of time and money chasing antique social issues that hold no value like bathroom bills, anti-equality marriage, supressing voting rights, chasing refugees away from the American dream, fighting planning of parenthood so that more unwanted children are born to a society that wants to help them less...   how is any of that 'conservative', in the traditional fiscal sense?  and more importantly, how in the world do you see those republican victories as better for the country as a whole?
 
Most of the losses of the left you describe (eg unions) has to do more with the right spinning the story for their own profit and power, rather than attempting to do the right thing.  Yes, liberals keep losing these battles, because we keep trying to do what's best in an honest way.  The right keeps doing whatever it can, however it can, for itself and it's rich buddies.  I wish you would help stop that. 
 
I would love a chance to move away from political parties and the Us vs Them mentality and focus on doing what's best for the country, but I think those on the right spend WAY more time fighting for their own power and profit, stomping down the liberal left rather than doing what's right for all. 
Beem Weeks Added Mar 3, 2017 - 1:46pm
Interesting article, Louis. We need to eliminate party politics from government. It does nothing but breed hatred and division among Americans. Just look at the comments here and on Twitter. We hate each other because of our politicians. It's that age-old divide-and-conquer. We've been weakened and the powers that be have been emboldened.
 
I do see the DNC being further weakened and relegated to third party status--if they don't see the light. And they won't see it. Even as it shines brightly into their eyes. When times change and the parties don't, they'll be relegated to the footnotes of history. The Whig Party of the 21st century.
George N Romey Added Mar 3, 2017 - 2:33pm
Corporate liberals will find their base shrinking as the middle class continues to fall apart and they become the party of Wall Street, Silicon Valley, Hollywood and big corporate and pharma.  Others will turn towards a more progressive independent party.
Richard Plank Added Mar 3, 2017 - 2:46pm
Folks I am not sure liberal versus conservative is even a set of reasonable terms.  Seems I am a liberal in that I lean toward less government, but that is not how most of you define it and I doubt if one did a study they would find any consistency or even a majority for one definition or another.  I would argue most of us are hybrids that is we may fall on the liberal side or the conservative side (depending again on how we define those).  The rationale for that thinking is simply many of the assumptions that strict liberals or conservatives hold (pending definition again) simply are not viable in all situations.   Louis good article, notwithstanding my abstractions, and  you ask a reasonable pragmatic question.  They will morph, what we have now is a real experiment of sorts and we will see long term if it actually impacts what happens in the US.  That is making the changes that move governmental behavior away from opportunistic behavior and abuse of power to beneficence.  Anyway that is the least of our worries I don't see the species lasting more than another 200 years anyway before it grows itself to oblivion, but that is another argument.
George N Romey Added Mar 3, 2017 - 3:00pm
Richard I think we will see our society morph in establishment (the top 10% and their supporters-those that actually still think they will get a fair shake) and non establishment.  That will set this country up for massive social unrest and dysfunctional government, as we are already seeing, 
Cliff M. Added Mar 3, 2017 - 3:05pm
Stone, What a long strange trip it's been. You got to keep on truckin.
George N Romey Added Mar 3, 2017 - 3:37pm
Louis I think we can safely assume that Sanders would have beat Trump.  There is going to be a fracturing of the Democratic Party.  
Cliff M. Added Mar 3, 2017 - 3:43pm
George, The Democratic party used an old Republican ploy in the last election. They ate their own best candidate. If the Democratic party actually got behind Sanders instead of impeding him Trump would not be president today.
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 3, 2017 - 4:19pm
George and Cliff, I also believe Bernie would have beat Trump, but it really was not close in the primary, the establishment had the media and almost all of the super delegates, Bernie never had a chance because the corporate Democrats have set it up to never give him or anyone like him a chance.  I have said for many years now that the left needs their own Tea Party movement but now that I have actually seen the power of name calling against Liberals I do not believe it is possible for them to fight against the Democratic party, they are too much under the thumb.
 
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Tys, why do you dodge the points?  You want to refuse to respond to my points and instead want me to respond to yours?  How arrogant is that?
 
But, as a Conservative I will still try to give you honest answers while you are dodging.  First of all, your claims are simply not true, Conservatives are not doing any of the things you claim they are.  School funding has been going down for years, why claim only Republicans are to blame? Some of the worst school systems are under exclusive Democratic control so don't try to blame Conservatives for issues only Democrats seem to be the most guilty of.
 
Name calling is from the Right?  Did you just sleep through the last election or something?  Hillary Clinton, the Democratic nominee for President said half of all Trump supporters were Deplorable and lacked any redeeming quality in America, but you want to claim only the Right name calls?  If you can't even allow yourself to be honest about this one basic and simple fact how can you honestly discuss any topic?  Guest after Guest on news shows on NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN etc kept saying over and over again you can only vote for Trump if you are a racist, Van Jones said the election was whitewashed, over and over and over again all we hear from the left are terms like racist, xenophobe, bigot, Hitler, etc.
 
I love the way you claim you just want to do what is best, like only you know what that should be and anyone who does not agree with your view is evil, that is exactly the kind of mindset average Americans have been rejecting.  Well guess what, Conservatives also just want to do what is best for America.
 
 
Stop and consider how those Corporations, bankers, and wall street you love to be angry with were all pumping tens of millions of dollars into the pockets of Hillary Clinton.  Times have changed my friend, Republicans do support business in general, but the "fat cats" belong to Democrats, not Republicans.
 
 
George N Romey Added Mar 3, 2017 - 4:42pm
Both parties have used social issues to divide America while their big money donors have walked away with the entire pot.  Its a simple as that.  The GOP did not do a "Bernie" on Trump because they assumed at some point he would self implode. By the time Romney and friends got in to try to discredit Trump it was too late.  Make no mistake the Democratic Party was never going to allow Sanders to be nominated. Too much power to truth.
 
My expectation is that for the next 3 years Trump will get nowhere. The two parties do not see their own demise but its coming.  By 2019 this will be a much meaner and more hateful country.  This is assuming we do not have an economic meltdown, despite the soaring stock market.  
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 3, 2017 - 5:59pm
George, Trump was the next stage in Tea Party movement, in general Americans tend to lean slightly more Conservative than Liberal anyway but being Conservative does not mean they support Republicans, especially not establishment Republicans. 
 
Americans have been divided for one reason or another for a lot longer than the last few years and if you think hostility in politics is new you may want to do a little research because you would be wrong.  Here let me get you started:
 
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/23/politics/election-2016-personal-attacks/
 
And I do believe the Civil War counts as the most hateful time in American history, killing each other in massive numbers.
 
The GOP could not stop Trump because Conservative voters do not vote based on loyalty to party, at least not for the last several years.  If you go back and do a little research you will see we let some Republicans be beat by Democrats and we pushed out all the Liberal leaning Republicans we could but even when we gave the Republicans historic wins in the House and Senate, those Republicans refused to stand up for their voters and backed down time after time and let Obama bully them and name call them into submission.
 
Voters were never going to support an establishment Republican, the more the establishment attacked Trump the more normal Americans flocked to him because they knew that if the establishment hated him, he must be great.  That is why nobody cared about his verbal mistakes and his lack in some areas, none of it mattered, this was the year that normal Americans sent a clear message to Washington that we are getting tired of the mess.
 
 
As far as getting things done, to a Conservative we already have returned to the rule of law, immigration laws are now being enforced, Trump has already made a great supreme court pick, Trump has a dream team of negotiators with great promise to get some needed changes to trade deals and business crippling policies, and so far he has forced many companies to invest in new jobs in America so Trump seems to be on a pretty good start to me.
 
 
Cliff M. Added Mar 3, 2017 - 6:23pm
Louis, I do not know if the majority of the Trump supporters were conservatives. If you remember there were a whole lot of conservative republicans who did not want anything to do with him early on. I think his own republican party was pleasantly surprised when he won. Many of his supporters were part of the populist movement that wanted nothing to do with the status quo. Many were progressives who had no stomach for the establishment candidate Clinton and strongly supported Sanders before switching to Trump.
George N Romey Added Mar 3, 2017 - 6:47pm
Agreed Cliff.  The economic agenda of Trump is going to require working with Congress.  That will be the true test.  Americans will judge Trump ultimately on what he does with the economy. 
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 3, 2017 - 7:24pm
Cliff, most of Trump's supporters were Conservatives and economic centrists.  The only Republicans against Trump were old school establishment Republicans, not the younger and more conservatives Republicans.
 
Still today the old establishment Republicans hate Trump, McCain is seething mad that Trump won, establishment Republicans actually wanted Hillary to win.
 
 
Cliff M. Added Mar 3, 2017 - 7:32pm
Louis, I know a guy and his wife who are lifelong republicans. They voted for Clinton. I am a registered Democrat from 1975 but vote all over the map. I voted Trump.
Douglas Proudfoot Added Mar 3, 2017 - 7:42pm
I believe liberals are trapped by a disconnect between the means they usually use to reach their ends and the way everybody believes America should work.  Liberals believe that government experts on powerful appointed commissions, like the EPA, SEC, FCC and newly created CPSC should make most of the decisions, including decisions that involve hundreds of billions or even trillions of dollars.  
 
Conservatives believe that these big decisions need to be made in Congress, whose members are directly elected by the people, and signed into law by the president, the way it was done until the Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC) was created in 1887.  The ICC was abolished because its intrusion into the free market for railroad and truck shipping rates wrecked the railroad industry.  The ICC was abolished in 1995.
 
Independent regulatory agencies are not mentioned in the Constitution or any of its Amendments.  They are not Constitutionally authorized in the language itself, but have been placed into the document by legal rulings starting in the New Deal era.  It seems to me, as a Conservative Republican, that Democrats believe that their cause is just so that the way they achieve their ends is justified no matter what is required.  I think this pattern is world-wide.  I also think the voters do not feel commissions of experts adequately represent their points of view. 
 
I don't see any easy resolution for this. Conservatives are most concerned with process.  Liberals are only concerned about outcomes.  For liberals, the ends justify the means.  For conservatives, it's easier to respect a bad outcome, if the means followed an approved pattern.   When the EPA declares war on coal, after Congress refused to pass a carbon tax, the dichotomy is quite clear.  The elected representatives of the people said they didn't want a carbon tax that shut down coal as a source of electrical generation.  The government experts of the EPA said the people needed to have a war on coal whether they wanted it or not.  The EPA said they knew what was good for people better than the people did.  That type of high handed "we know what's good for you better than you know yourself" is what's causing voter revolts in Western Democracies.
Billy Roper Added Mar 3, 2017 - 9:04pm
Liberals will radicalize from cucked Betas like Aaron to true Communist LGBT street criers, and likewise, those of us on the other side will radicalize as well, and never the twain shall meet. Polarization and division will lead to balkanization.
Jeff Jackson Added Mar 4, 2017 - 6:52am
Wow, never thought that conclusion would come around. Imagine that. No reasoning, no consideration for the union, the republic, just thoughts about what is good for certain people; and then a bloody violent end. The problem is that the bloody violent end won't be an end, it will only be the beginning of internecine battles that never stop. Think of Iraq, all the factions looking to even scores centuries old, no common thinking or opinion. Countries that do so are condemned to struggle forever, without resolution. I was hoping that we were smarter than that, but Billy always reaches the same conclusion, even if the union won't.
Billy Roper Added Mar 4, 2017 - 7:28am
Jeff, yes, me and mother nature, and human nature, we have laws which snowflakes melt against. But your lack of knowledge looms large again: the balkanized new nations of the former Yugoslavia, following their bitter civil war of the 1990s, are now pretty nice places, better off than they were a generation ago.
Billy Roper Added Mar 4, 2017 - 7:31am
Liberals can't cite their questionable poll numbers about the number of people who support background checks when it comes to a judicial re-interpretation of the second amendment. After all, every state which held a referendum on gay marriage voted against it, every one, even Commifornia, and the supreme court still legislated it, so...
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 4, 2017 - 8:42am
Cliff, that is my point, yes, old stuck in the past Liberal leaning Republicans hated Trump, they were all establishment Republicans and I know a lot of them, but those are exactly the kinds of Republicans Conservatives have been slowly shoving out of the Republican party.  These are the people who gave us things like NAFTA, still today they believe NAFTA was a great idea no matter how many jobs we have lost to Mexico and other Countries.
 
The future of the Republican party is not these old fossils like McCain who lived Hillary Clinton and voted for every Liberal policy change they could.  Do you remember it was McCain who partnered up with Bush to push for a new mass amnesty for all illegal aliens in America?  Conservatives exploded against it and ended the discussion but those Liberal Republicans like McCain who have kept their seats hate Conservatives,  and they hate Trump today.
 
Cliff M. Added Mar 4, 2017 - 8:59am
Louis, I fail to see how the new conservative movement will gain enough traction to maintain a majority. Their mindset of personal gain at the cost of widespread pain will lose appeal quickly. It would be different if those that have managed to game the system under the current rules did not maintain the edge but in this order that is not the case. As much as I did not like Clinton he understood that the only way of accomplishing anything was to govern from the center. The majority has both conservative and liberal views on most issues. Taking an extreme view from either side puts people at an immediate disadvantage.
George N Romey Added Mar 4, 2017 - 9:07am
The elites, including the long time DC politicians just do not get it. They assume that unemployment is actually 4.8% and would rather get involved in matters that most Americans do not give a rat ass about. Most Americans could care less if one of Trump's cabinet members spoke to some Russian.  I think Trump sees the real problems but whether he can or wants to cut through all the Washington bulls...t to get real change done is questionable.
 
I will bet the farm on one thing.  If economic conditions do not improve in this country within a couple of years we are headed for a massive economic depression and the social unrest that will come with it.  Like 2008, the elites will never see it coming until the implosion happens.  Like before, the next meltdown will happen in days, not weeks.  Next time around any attempt to provide bailouts and there just might be Americans coming to Washington with pitchforks in hand.
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 4, 2017 - 9:35am
Cliff,
 
Their mindset of personal gain at the cost of widespread pain will lose appeal quickly.
 
Who are you talking about?  I do not know a single Conservative with that mindset so you must be talking about the Corporate Democrats with all that money flowing into their pockets.
 
I see you dodged my point of how those moderate politicians f gave us stuff like NAFTA, the deregulation signed by Clinton that caused the banking mess, the crime and welfare Bills that warehoused millions of Blacks into prisons, etc. 
 
Our Founding fathers created a system where we were not supposed to change things, they wanted us to argue and bicker and fight and stay the course on most things and only change those things that actually needed change.  Our society works best when we have set riles and policies, drastic and sudden changes back and forth such as we see with our immigration laws and regulatory shifts based on politics was not what they wanted.
 
Business, all of the private sector needs stability, not chaos.  Only the most glaring of bad situations should be acted on by Government, otherwise, stay out of the way and let people govern themselves.
 
Whenever I discuss Government with people /I am reminded by ?New York's move to make large sodas illegal and how California decided toys in a happy mean should be illegal.  They actually passed those laws.  The mindset of the left is no detail of American life should go without regulations and laws controlling it.
Cliff M. Added Mar 4, 2017 - 9:51am
Louis, What happens if the conservatives get their way and repeal Obamacare with no replacement like they want? Millions will lose coverage and poverty will increase. Clinton accomplished his agenda by triangulating with a republican majority in congress. Isn't Newt Gingrich supposed to be a model conservative? What happened during the Obama years after the recession? The conservatives stood in the way of anything involved with job creation which would have helped millions adversely affected. What was their main goal? Tax cuts for the wealthy and corporate masters. There is a place for conservatism in politics but the whole ideology does more harm to the majority than good.
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 4, 2017 - 10:11am
Cliff,
Talking with you is difficult because you keep dodging to new unfounded claim after another.  There is no pinning you down to debate an issue because you just refuse to discus the thing you are being pinned down on and run to a new false claim. 
 
I will not run around in circles with you constantly refusing to stand on a single point and running away, I will gladly discuss one point at a time with you then move to the next but I will not let you get away with telling lies then dodging  my reply to those lies.
 
You said :
 
"Their mindset of personal gain at the cost of widespread pain will lose appeal quickly."
 
Who exactly are you talking about?  I do not know a single Conservative who is pushing personal gain at the cost of widespread pain.  Every policy being pushed by Conservatives will help the majority of Americans, a rising tide raises all boats Cliff.
 
Only Democrats push great harm to help a small number of people, your Obamacare comment is a great example, all Americans who had insurance were hurt, every single one of them.  Obama's promises were all lies, especially those saying the average American will see a $2,500 savings in yearly premiums, did that come to be true Cliff?  Nope, the average American saw large increases in cost of premiums and larger deductibles, my own cost doubled as well as my deductible doubled, the wife's lady doctor was no longer in our provider list so we have to pay out of network fees to see her doctor and that has doubled again my out of pocket expenses for medical care for her doctor.
 
 
Yes, there are a few "winners" with Obamacare, mostly those getting huge Government subsidies for overpriced health care policies that many can't even find a doctor who will accept them.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/15/sunday-review/sorry-we-dont-take-obamacare.html?_r=0
 
 
Bryan Hampton Added Mar 4, 2017 - 10:39am
@Louis - Drumpf is his actual name, his father changed it to Trump when he moved to America from German, so it isn't really an insult.
Cliff M. Added Mar 4, 2017 - 10:40am
Louis, If conservatives are only interested in making change in area's that are absolutely necessary that means they support the status quo which has gamed the system. Healthcare is an absolute disaster. The cost of a decent family medical plan is about $2000 a month by me. The price has tripled since 2000. Why would anyone support this unless they prospered from it? What is the conservative plan to make things better? What have the conservatives accomplished to help get the middle class back on their feet? The only thing I can recall is shutting down the government at a cost of $25 billion to the tax payer. In a progressive tax system why are the top income groups paying at an effective rate which is lower than the middle class? Why do they support this? I would like to hear what you believe conservative principles have accomplished in the recent past.
 What about the defund planned parenthood to stop abortion movement. It has been illegal to spend tax payer money on abortion since 1976.
  Under the Proposed republican Obamacare repeal the top 400 income earners will receive a $ 7 million dollar tax cut at the cost of leaving multi millions of Americans uninsured. The average income of the top 400 was $336 million in 2012.
  We need both conservative and progressive ideas to move this country forward. The current status quo has put the American Dream in extreme peril.
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 4, 2017 - 11:01am
Bryan,
 
Yes it is an insult, Trump was born Trump, that is on his birth certificate, you are trying to do what?  Attack him for something his father did you see as evil?
 
Also, you on the left believe in self-determination right?  A White woman can be a Black women if she really wants to be and a man can be a woman if he wants to be right?
 
 
Do you refer to  Chelsea Manning as Bradly manning?  Is it disrespectful to refer to Caitlyn Jenner as Bruce Jenner? 
 
Hypocrisy, you guys love to use excuses to be disrespectful and name call.
 
 
Bill H. Added Mar 4, 2017 - 11:04am
 
Cliff, I totally agree. We need to get this country united, and Trump is certainly not the man that will do this. To the contrary, he seems to enjoy division and conflict, making it a key part of his "Reality Show Regime".
 As a past example, former President John F. Kennedy worked with both parties, especially on creating jobs. He kept his cabinet bipartisan for this reason and was loved by members of both parties for the most part. Even as a child, I remember him being well liked by all of my friends parents and all of the neighbors, who could not wait to watch his speeches on TV.
We now face divisional attitude adjustment "programming" via TV and radio media, along with the major contributor, customized search algorithms and social media. The sad effect of this is our ability to think and reason is continually minimized by the amount of information we are served, and the methods used to serve it.
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 4, 2017 - 11:21am
Cliff,
 
You are all over the place, pick a topic and let's talk about it.  You debate like a woman, lol.
 
Obamacare did not address any of the things you claim are bad about healthcare, all it did was offer a lot of Government money to private insurance companies and drive up rates faster than ever seen before.  Obama was entrenching the status quo with Government subsidies to keep it going.
 
 
Conservatives have offered many alternatives, just not as one massive and complex Bill, the reason Obamacare is failing is it had too many moving and harmful parts that all fed off each other, the issues should have been dealt with one part at a time so we could easily tweak those individual parts that were not working as expected.
 
The Obamacare exchanges were dead before they started, every expert I knew predicted they would devour themselves inside 6 years, it happened faster than that.  The very idea was flawed and could never have worked.
 
And Obama wanted to get young adults "into the game" but then passed a requirement letting adult children stay on their parents insurance?  How incredibly stupid was that?  Those young healthy adults were who he needed to buy policies to help pay for the sick.
 
 
As I said, every major promise Obama made for Obamacare was broken, there is nothing about Obamacare that is actually functioning as it was promised to do.  Even the desire to get people shifted away from emergency rooms and into less expensive family doctors failed miserably because most reports show no change or even an increase in people going to emergency rooms.
 
 
 
How could Conservatives do anything in recent history when they never had the power to pass anything?  Even now they do not have a super majority, Democrats are being the party of "NO" so there is no possible way for Conservatives to pass any of their policies into law.
 
 
But Conservatives have tried, Republicans in the House passed over 60 Bills designed to help small businesses in various ways from helping them to get investments to reducing bad regulations that were unfairly targeting small businesses and keeping them from being able to compete.  All of those Bills went to Harry Reid's desk to die, not 1 of them were allowed into debate or a vote, Reid played obstructionist.
 
Also, Republicans have been offering hundreds of ideas for healthcare reform, two I  like the best are tax credits for health insurance and allowing insurance companies to compete over State lines.  Republicans begged Obama for that last part when Obamacare was first introduced but Obama rejected it.  Competition has always been the best way to keep business honest.
 
 
George N Romey Added Mar 4, 2017 - 11:25am
BOTH PARTIES have contributed to the decline of the average American.  They play their dutiful part as required by their big money donors, that by the way give to (guess again) BOTH PARTIES.  No one in Washington really gives a damn about people like Cliff and myself. Moreover, the elites look at us as pathetic little children, always crying over spilled milk but no fortitude to ever do anything about it.  They may be wrong, as they have been wrong or denied everything else.  Remember Bernanke in early September swearing the economy was strong as well as vitality of the financial markets.  Two weeks later Lehman failed and AIG was just about to until the whores of the financial elites stepped in to save their pathetic asses with trillions in bailouts.  As history shows those living in and benefiting the most from the bubble are the last to see it popping.
 
Having this discussion about Washington liberals or conservatives is mindless.  They both are in on the joke. Maybe someone like Sanders, but actually not afraid to stand up to the Democratic Party will emerge by 2020.  I doubt it, or not without another and much deeper economic meltdown (which smart economists like Jim Rickards will tell you is well on its way).
 
I can't speak as to what is in Trump's heart.  But I do know the establishment will try to destroy him at every turn and I think he will be outwitted every time.  He has been thrown into the swamp and there are unlimited numbers of venomous snakes and alligators abound ready to seek and destroy him. He already has a snake biting into his arm and an alligator latched onto his leg.
 
When the next crash comes the politicians will again be shocked, utterly shocked, at the audacity of the bubble.  It happened in the early 20th century, 1929, 1998, 2001, and 2008; and it will happen again by the end of this decade.
Cliff M. Added Mar 4, 2017 - 11:32am
Louis, Sorry that my thoughts are scattered. I am not a fan of the way Obamacare played out. It is a case of half a loaf is better than none .For a lot of people especially middle class and up it sucks. So does the Republican plan of take something that sucks and exploit it for the select few and make it worse for everyone else. The cost of healthcare on the private market will never go down. This is an area where only government intervention and something like medicare for all is the only real true fix.
Richard Plank Added Mar 4, 2017 - 11:58am
George;  We have always been able to survive our many bouts of social unrest other than our civil war and we survived that as well; and I do think we will survive unrest as it continues to wax and wane.  It seems to me on the TV show, and I only caught bits and pieces the end of the world is predicted as massive war and/or social unrest.  I personally believe that the cause will be overpopulation continuing to create or at least lead to the inability to react to changes in the environment and something big will happen which will start the spiral toward extinction.  Will likely be some that survive for a time, but in the end it will end unless we start taking some of the issues brought up in sustainability seriously.
Cliff I have a tendency to agree with you in the long term in fact the only model that is going to work long term is what some might call socialism.  The reason for that is again the planet can only viably sustain X population, pick a number;  Ultimately we are going to go to a longer term negative growth model which radically changes the business model as well as everything else.  As to the market solving healthcare problems, well I think Keynes said it well in the long run we are all dead, the market model has all sorts of problems in the short run and if any of our have really studied economics you know there are other assumptions, for instance, equilibrium versus non equilibrium changes the model.  I am an "Austrian" and think the non equilibrium model fits better, but what I really think we have is oscillation with equilibrium possible in parts of the system for some periods of time, but we have distinct periods of both.  Depends on how you look at it and how you might measure it and our measurement I think too often drives our theory rather than the other way around.  My own belief about Obamacare is it only tried to deal with a small part of the system and those of us who understand systems theory realize what that does to the system or at least can do to the system.  And on top  of that we have a political system based on compromise, which can be good or bad for the operation of any system and in this case I suspect when all the cards are played it will be more negative than positive.  Since our political system encourages opportunistic behavior and abuse of power one should expect nothing else. 
Cliff M. Added Mar 4, 2017 - 12:20pm
Richard, I believe I understand your point of view economically.It seems the closest we have been to equalibrium was in the later years of Clinton. But afterwards we were subject to changes which tilted the playing field. I am not sure about a lot of the welfare entitlements but have the Sanders view that decent healthcare should be a right of all Americans. The money which has created the opportunistic behavior in our elected officials has become a travesty.
 As to economic growth I lean towards Keynes. It is very difficult for economic growth with out investment. Currently those against public investment have invested massively on Wall Street in the private sector. Investment must become more balanced for things to improve.
George N Romey Added Mar 4, 2017 - 12:35pm
As long as the DOW is soaring and corporate profits soar due to cost cutting and financial gimmicks there will be zero incentive to rejuvenate the American economy.  In the eyes of CEOs there is nothing to fix when it comes to the job market.  That is why I am for a massive 5 year, $5 trillion infrastructure program, managed by the private sector. 
 
As far as healthcare. If as a nation we believe a right like fire and police protection we then need a public option.  And yes the delivery will be slow like the DMV or any other government agency.  The lack of profit motive naturally increases inefficiency.  People could still purchase private plans that would give more choice and better service, just like private security does a much better job of protecting a rich man than the local police deparment.
Cliff M. Added Mar 4, 2017 - 12:44pm
George, I totally agree with you here.A country where you must live in poverty or be wealthy to get decent healthcare is bullshit.Right now the poor get better healthcare on Medicaid than many stuck in the middle.
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 4, 2017 - 12:45pm
Cliff, there you go again dodging and tossing in a fake point as distraction as you dodge:
 
"So does the Republican plan of take something that sucks and exploit it for the select few and make it worse for everyone else."
 
That is simply not true, you just keep making stuff up out of thin air or maybe just playing parrot repeating everything the far left media is brainwashing you with but what you say is simply not reality.
 
There is nothing in any plan Republicans have offered so far that exploits anyone.  Again, the exchanges were going to end no matter who won the election, they can't sustain the massive losses they are taking.  Obamacare subsidized their massive losses for a couple years but that is done and now the Insurance companies have to try and cover the cost of them on their own and they can't.
 
Do you prefer Republicans to just sit back and watch it all fail before taking action?
 
You also dodged the fact most Americans have been hurt by Obamacare, yes there are a few "winners" but we do not intentionally grind most Americans under the Government heel just to keep a few happy.  The mess must be stopped, remember all that money Obama spent just advertising for Obamacare and State exchanges just to watch them all fail?
 
 
 
You seem to be confusing intentions with results, as a Conservative I do see the intentions, really I do, but I have to place more importance on results, even unintentional results, and based on this fact, Obamacare has never been a good idea and has never worked the way it was promised.
Cliff M. Added Mar 4, 2017 - 12:58pm
Louis,
If the Republic replacement plan is so good why are they afraid of letting anyone see it? After voting over 60 times to repeal Obamacare you would think the republican congress must have some great ideas to replace it. As to most Americans have been hurt by Obamacare I have to disagree. During the Obamacare years premiums have risen less than in the period before it. Like I said . Obamacare is not the answer. But replacing it with something that is no better is nothing more than politics and will do more harm than good.
 The real problem is the control the private sector has over government healthcare policy. The healthcare lobby is larger than just about all of the other lobbies combined. Where are their contributions going?
 If you are concerned about results why would you support those who have provided minimal to no results.
George N Romey Added Mar 4, 2017 - 1:08pm
What people do not realize is how the focus of liberals has changed since the 1970s. From the New Deal through the 70s liberals championed the little guy.  However by the early 70s the "little guy" was more seen as Archie Bunker. The liberals wanted to be the party of Mike Stivic. 
 
Through the decades it morphed into the party of the financial and corporate elites.  By the 1990s white collar professionals were being sacrificed for the almighty dollar.  It was no longer just Archie getting screwed by "the man", it was the "meathead" as well.  At least back in the 90s if you were kicked out of a job there was another one to take its place after a few stressful months of unemployment.  Yes the Clinton years are of fond memories.
 
That began to change in the 00's and want hyper by the end of the decade. Today the person with an MBA and loads of experience suffers right along with the ex con.  The only difference is that one has tremendous skills and an pedigree education while the other one received a high school diploma in prison.
 
The liberal class stayed with the big money crowd because of they are the ones that fund campaigns.  So the liberals run around and scream transgender bathrooms kidding themselves they are the champions of the ordinary man.  Debbie Wasuerman Schultz was found to be taking political contributions from the payday industry, one of the most vile and disgusting entities ever to roam this Earth.
 
Unless you are part of the protected, born into wealth class you are vulnerable.  Your fancy degree and years of experience ultimately mean nothing.  If an Indian can be brought in on an HB1 visa to replace you, you are toast.  To think either of these parties gives a damn is laughable.
Cliff M. Added Mar 4, 2017 - 1:28pm
Many thought Trump would be a welcome change but it just appears to be the same shit, different flavor.
George N Romey Added Mar 4, 2017 - 1:37pm
I agree Cliff.  Trump is on the road to be another Obama.  Lots of talk and very little option.  Both parties will play dirty games to keep any viable Independent away.  America will need to go through a "cleanse" process, or total economic meltdown.  Sad but true.
Cliff M. Added Mar 4, 2017 - 1:44pm
The cards were shown after the Great Recession. Those that had a large part in creating the mess got hosed with trillions of dollars. The working class stiff got the shaft. Believing we can get different results from the same status quo is fantasy. They are not going to leave on their own.
Bill H. Added Mar 4, 2017 - 3:27pm
 
If the "new" health care plan isn't just a modified version of the ACA that allows massive profiteering by the insurance companies and health care sector, it may have a chance at succeeding. I suspect it may come out that it will available to a sector of the population, but will also leave out some.
Many companies who formally offered a health care program and possibly a pension plan (as did the company I retired from), have dropped either or both of these for new hires, and are keeping wages down.
How in the hell is any of these poor people going to make it in life? Are we simply going to turn into a "work them until they are worn out and then let them die" society?
We are on the road to becoming even more of a corporate-controlled society that will lose track of all that it is to be human.
Cliff M. Added Mar 4, 2017 - 3:39pm
Bill, The current business model of cut cost's anyway possible to insure shareholder value and profit has replaced decent middleclass jobs with as much cheap labor ,legal and illegal with no benefits. This when unemployment is below 5 %. Whats wrong with this picture?
George N Romey Added Mar 4, 2017 - 5:35pm
The "Final Solution 2.0" is already here.  People in their 50s and early 60s with no prospect for a job so they self abort.  No need for social security, Medicare, etc. because you are already six feet below.  All of this is by design.  I doubt that I am going to make it to age 65, age 60 if I'm lucky.  The top 10% will live to a ripe old age with the best that medical care can provide. They will have personal nutritionist and personal trainers to keep them young and in good physical shape while the Cliffs and the Georges of the world die from processed food, stress, and possibly a self inflicted gunshot wound to the head.
 
Welcome the new face of America.  Only a massive social revolt will change this course or an economic meltdown so bad paper wealth dissipates over night.
George N Romey Added Mar 4, 2017 - 5:58pm
Think about what happened in 2008 and 2009.  Wall Street got an immediate bail out and was made whole almost over night. Those Americans like Cliff, myself and tens of millions more. Where is our bailout? We will never be made whole because the politicians do not really care about us.  I've tried to engage numerous Senators and Congressmen on the plight of particularly older workers. Zero interest, nada, zilch, zip, zero.  Now if I had contacted them about transgendered bathrooms?
 
The conservatives think Trump will be different. We shall see. I hope so but will not be surprised two years from now when the factories are still closed and most people working for less. Of course there will be a total bullshit unemployment rate thrown around.
Bill H. Added Mar 4, 2017 - 6:44pm
 
The inability of most people to obtain a livable wage, along with loss of benefits upsets the balance we once had. At one time people were making decent wages on the average with the benefits and pensions. This enabled people to buy property, goods and services and still be able to put away some cash.
Now the scale has tipped to where the average person has to curtail spending in all areas and the CEO's and corporations are making such a large profit that they have to bank it overseas to avoid the taxes. This has upset the profit and spending balance for most Americans to the point that the "machine" is not longer finely balanced as it once was.
I don't think we will see the guilty parties make any amends or sacrifices in order to try and get things back in balance, and Trump surely won't make any moves in this area, as it would be "Taboo".
George N Romey Added Mar 4, 2017 - 8:10pm
Bill eventually there will be another economic collapse, likely under Trump's four years. The question is will there be another no questions, no strings attached bail out which will run in the trillions or will the 1% finally be forced to suffer with the masses they have been plundering and pillaging now for over three decades?
Bill H. Added Mar 4, 2017 - 10:12pm
Everyone on all sides of the issue needs to give and take (remember that term?).
Until then, the "winners" will win even more and the "losers" will lose even more.
The cycle continues.
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 4, 2017 - 11:44pm
Cliff,
Democrats wrote most of Obamacare behind closed doors, in fact Insurance company insiders and drug company representatives had more impact on writing Obamacare than any Democrat in Washington. 
 
Obama promised American families would save $2,500 a year on premiums, that was a lie.  No rates have not risen at slower rates, that claim includes cost offsets from subsidies, once you take in account the full cost of policies they have risen faster than before.
 
Yes, the vast majority of Americans have been hurt by Obamacare, you can dodge and refuse to respond to this fact all day long but you dodging proves you know it is true no matter what diversionary tactics you employ.
 
 
Cliff M. Added Mar 5, 2017 - 6:37am
Louis, I have said Obamacare is not the answer.Punishing those that have gained coverage while giving those the same shitty coverage that were covered before Obamacare is not the answer either.
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 5, 2017 - 9:25am
Cliff,
It is not punishment, it is simply reality that the handout to those few was never feasible in the first place.  Good intentions does not equal good ideas or good outcomes, you can't punish 300 million people just to help a small handful, it is simply not right.
 
There are other ways to help them though and if those few you worry about do end up out in the cold it will not be because of Republicans who are taking apart a program that was always wrong and bad, it will be because the Democrats refuse to work with Republicans to help form a new system.
 
 Democrats are more concerned with making political points with the radical left than helping Americans, so they will watch as those few suffer and use them as political adds for their next elections, just like Saddam did when he intentionally allowed his people to starve and die for the media power it gave him.
 
 
 
Obamacare was never the answer, so why try to save it?  Just to preserve the Obama legacy?  You that devoted to the man you would rather keep it going than do what is right?  I do not understand this level of blind devotion to elected officials. 
Cliff M. Added Mar 5, 2017 - 10:37am
Louis,  Do you believe during this time of economic stagnation and malaise that policy that forces more people into Harms way is helpful? If the healthcare replacement turns out to be better than the current situation it will have my support. At this stage guessing what the replacement actually will be is pure speculation. If the norm follows suit the winners in this ploy will be the healthcare industry and the puppets they employ in congress.
 As to Obama I was a supporter in the past. His results and inability to circumvent an obstructionist republican congress leave little to celebrate.His support of the Globalist elite status quo approach is something which I wish I was aware of much earlier on. When he sold out to the insurance lobby on a public option and we debated the issues in public for months after the deal was done I lost interest.
Cliff M. Added Mar 5, 2017 - 11:09am
Louis, There is an article about this issue on huffington post today called " Maybe it's time to stop calling the Gop Obamacare plan a replacement ".
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 6, 2017 - 8:17am
Cliff,
 
Again, you admit Obamacare was a mess, so why keep it?  Yes when bad programs are ended there are a few who will be hurt, but that does not mean you just keep the bad policy going.  There are better ways to spend that money and better ways to help those few than to keep this monster going.
 
Obamacare is bad, has always been bad, and there is no way to save it, anyone with a brain knows this to be true and you seem to admit this was bad policy from the start as well when you agree the Insurance and drug industry had more involvement in writing it then our elected officials did.  We agree on that much at least I believe we do.
 
You seem stuck on that one point, that about 1% (or less) of the American population benefit from Obamacare, yes I agree they do, but my point is we can't spend trillions of dollars hurting 99% of the Insurance using population just to help that 1%.  There are better ways to help that 1%.
 
 
Hell it would have much cheaper for our Government to just hand a million dollars to each of those 1% and leave everyone else alone, you have any idea how much money we spend to advertise for State run pools that ended up going belly up?
 
 
All of you on the far left swallowed the idea we had to pass Obamacare before we knew what was in it.  You swallowed all the promises of saving the average family $2,500 on premiums every year and you can keep your insurance and doctor if you like them and  everyone would be in the game, and it would reduce the use of emergency rooms etc.  You just took it all on faith and we now know all of it, every single promise made to the American people was broken.  It was a classic bait and switch Washington politics style.
 
So if you were blissfully accepting of Obamacare and it's promises not questioning any of it, why not let the Republicans have the same support and see how it goes?
Cliff M. Added Mar 6, 2017 - 9:38am
Louis, It looks like we may get a look at the republican plan this week. Lets see who the winners and losers are this time before making any more assumptions as to what is better for this country. I am personally very skeptical that the Republicans would change course and come up with a plan that has the welfare of the majority as it's core.
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 6, 2017 - 10:10am
So again, why blindly trust the Democrats and their plan but be skeptical of Republicans?  We now know Democrats were telling open lies just to pass a very bad and hurtful Bill, why not let Republicans have a chance?
 
We were told we had to pass Obamacare to see what was in Obamacare, we it was passed and we see that all of it was lies and none of it worked as promised.
 
Time to move on.
 
In all walks of life we find issues needing to be addressed and we may try thousands of ideas before we end up finding a solution.  The new ideas Republicans have may be great or they may not, but we will not know for sure until we try them out the same way we found out Obamacare was bad, we had to try it out.
 
But what we can do is look at how each attempt works and how it changes the system good and bad.  Each failure teaches us valuable information we can use to improve on the next attempts.  The point is never perfection because as human beings were not simply not capable of perfection, but we can do our best and keep trying to improve things.
 
We should always be open to changes and attempts to make things better.  When you close off your mind for purely political reasons you are doing more harm to yourself than anyone else.
Cliff M. Added Mar 6, 2017 - 10:26am
Louis. I have been following politics too long to trust either party . The lobbyist own both lock, stock and barrel. You would think we would have learned what happens when you pass something to see what it is all about. Louis I am a registered Democrat but But have supported Reagan ,Ross Perot,and other independents . Never voted for a Clinton. I do not believe pigeon holing yourself into one specific ideology is a healthy way of getting a realistic view of what is going on.
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 6, 2017 - 10:57am
Cliff,
 
And yet you only blindly attack Republicans and openly paint them as all evil and untrustworthy etc.....
 
All I am saying is why do you constantly assume all Republicans are evil and refuse to give them the same kind of optimism for their plan as you gave Obamacare that you reluctantly admit was not a good plan?
 
Give them a chance, let them govern.  
 
I have a saying I have used for over 30 years I think maybe is good here:
 
"If all you look for is the negative, you will always find it, even if it is not really there."
 
 
Cliff M. Added Mar 6, 2017 - 11:31am
Louis, After watching the Republican Congress obstructionism During the Obama years when millions of Americans were in dire straits their main goal from day one was to see Obama fail. Until I see otherwise that they actually have the welfare of the majority at stake I will fail to give them my support. From 8 years of the Bush legacy to the 8 years of the Obama obstruction they have failed to show any reason to support them.
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 6, 2017 - 12:14pm
A
Cliff,
 
And now the Democratic Congress is obstructing at even greater degrees, remember when Obama got his cabinet approved that was before the rules were changed and you still needed 60 votes to approve.  Republicans gave Obama his cabinet and tried to work with Obama on several things but Democrats are flat refusing to do anything but obstruct.
 
So if Democrats like you believed obstructing everything was wrong when Republicans did it, why is it okay for Democrats to do it now?
 
 
How can Republicans show any new work if Democrats refuse to allow it?  Everything Republicans offered in the House was sent to die on Reid's desk where he flat refused to allow any progress on any Republican originated Bill during the entire Time Obama was President.  The Republican House set records for approved legislation passed in the House while the Reid Senate set records for the lest productive Senate in history.
 
 
 
Cliff, you are a pure partisan.  You only see your political ideology.
 
I freely admit Republicans have made a lot of mistakes, especially in their Liberal days agreeing with anything Bill Clinton wanted most of the time.  NAFTA, deregulation of the banks that caused the housing/banking collapse, refusal to address our southern border, more complicated tax systems, etc.
 
You should have seen me explode when Bush and McCain proposed the new illegal alien amnesty proposal with zero other steps to prevent future illegal immigration, it was my primary reason for refusing to vote for McCain when he ran for President.
Cliff M. Added Mar 6, 2017 - 12:46pm
Louis, McChinless stated early on that making Obama a one term president was the republicans main goal. Not helping getting the people back on their feet after the financial meltdown. I used to be partisan now I equally can not stand either party . I would like to see Trump be successful. Where him and the congress agree on policy is going to be interesting to see. Him and Sanders were really the only one's that claimed the welfare of the working class was the main issue.Where the welfare of the working and middle class fits in congress's agenda is a whole other issue. The congress's supporters , the wealthy corporate interest,s and contributor class have little in common with the ordinary citizen.
George N Romey Added Mar 6, 2017 - 2:41pm
The truth is that both parties have zero intention of restoring the middle class.  They both play their role as dictated by their big money donors.  What Trump should be doing is ignoring the games and taking an economic plan directly to the people via Youtube.  Only someone with enough critical mass on their side can destroy the plutocrats.
Cliff M. Added Mar 6, 2017 - 2:56pm
George, The thing that scares me are what trade offs are Trump going to make with the Republican congress to gain support for his agenda. I already don't like what I'm seeing about eliminating the government mandate from Obamacare. The Republicans want to tack on a 30% vig to buyers who have gaps in purchasing health insurance. People don't buy health insurance because they can't afford it . So how does tacking on a 30% vig for a year which goes to the private insurance industry make insurance more affordable.
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 6, 2017 - 8:32pm
Cliff,
 
You only say disparaging things about Republicans, you are still partisan, 100%.
 
And the mandate was never a mandate, did you ever actually read up on it? If you were a young healthy person who did not want to buy insurance all you had to do was adjust your dependents you claim to make sure you never over paid your taxes, that way the IRS could not collect the penalty.  I know several people who did exactly that and never paid any penalty and never had insurance.
 
Why buy Insurance?  Even if you paid the penalty it was chump change compared to the cost of the insurance and Obama took away the penalty for pre-existing conditions so you just refuse to buy insurance until you need it then buy it, Obama set it up that way and it almost seems designed to intentionally fail.
 
 
George,
 
Politicians can't wave a magic wand and restore the middle class, do you know anything at all about how Government works?  Most of those jobs Obama touted as created under his Administration were minimum wage and part time jobs, not middle class jobs.
 
 
Most of the middle class jobs we lost are lost forever, nobody can magically make them come back.  
 
 
If you do a little research most of the middle class jobs we lost were unskilled labor jobs in industry that has moved away but were middle class because of Unions and no foreign competition.  Today free trade deals even if they are adjusted, will still keep many of those jobs lower paid than they used to be.
 
 
Trump can bring some jobs back like assembly plants for cars and such but unskilled labor is now governed by a global labor pool and will never again be what it was 50 years ago.
 
 
Cliff M. Added Mar 6, 2017 - 9:03pm
Louis, I am partisan for the middle class which neither party give 2 shits about. It looks like the republican repeal bill is out. Let's see the warm reception it gets. It could wind up being your own conservatives that derail it.
Jenifer Frost Added Mar 6, 2017 - 9:28pm
I believe, in answer to the article question, that the left is too poisoned by neoliberals currently, especially in the Democratic Party. Either a new and truly liberal party must emerge, or some serious housecleaning in the Democrats, something their corporate bosses haven't even considered as of yet. A new, younger, Sanders like genuine liberal needs to present themselves and lead, not yielding to the neoliberals regardless of what they offer or threaten. Someone for the poor and working people who will revitalize unions and the disadvantaged. From there, who knows what is possible. 
Jenifer Frost Added Mar 6, 2017 - 10:57pm
I will add that I believe the Green Party did so poorly not because their ideas were bad. But rather because people are incredibly stupid. They listen to the fake news corporate mainstream media and actually believe what they are told. They were told they only had two choices and believed this lie. Stein could have not only gotten the 5%, but could have in fact won if all the idiots who voted for Hillary and those who stayed home instead voted Green. But they were brainwashed into choosing between Donnie the Trump and Hillary the Bitch.
 
Until people unplug from the corporatist two party Matrix they will limit themselves thusly. No one limits the people in this matter but themselves and their own lack of vision.
 
Of course if the DNC hadn’t rigged the primary for neoliberal warmonger Hillary Clinton we would have President Bernie Sanders. But that's another article.  
Douglas Proudfoot Added Mar 7, 2017 - 1:26am
We have been in this mess before, from roughly 1970-1980.  We got out of it by cutting back government regulation.  The only way that a big spread opens between the profits of crony capitalism and the stagnation of everybody else is if the government is heavily involved in picking winners and losers.  I think that complaints about income inequality are a "tell" for massive government intervention.  Democrats take up the income inequality cries when they are imposing the most draconian regulation on the economy and most people are barely staying even.  The profits go to the politically connected.  To cover up who is really stealing the money, big government liberals call all capitalists greedy will their cronies make a killing based on rigged regulations.  The page count for final general and permanent rules in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) is more modest than that of the Federal Register, but still considerable. In 1960, the CFR contained 22,877 pages. Since 1975, total pages in the complete CFR have grown from 71,224 to 178,277 at the end of 2015, including the 1,170-page index. That is a 150 percent increase over the period.  
 
Who can start a business if it could be outlawed tomorrow by some regulatory agency?  Why do you think a lot of the richest suburban counties in the US are around Washington, DC?
 
 
The Other Side Added Mar 11, 2017 - 2:28am
They will die an extraneous, erroneous species.