ABORTION: The good old days.

ABORTION: The good old days.
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When I was a teenager, Abortion was a felony in New York, and doctors who performed it, were guilty of manslaughter. There was no Planned Parenthood, and girls had no where to go for advice. Some were fortunate enough to have parents or church, or school councilors they could trust, but many only had street smarts to rely on.

Ladies of means went to another country for their abortion, or paid the trusted family physician to perform the procedure at home, claiming he removed a Uterine Cyst if questioned, and no one was the wiser.

The female professional simply went on a business trip and returned fetus free. A weekend in Paris was a needed break from stress. Wealthy parents simply sent their errant daughters on an exchange student visit for a week.

But the poor had no such alternative. Abortion clinics were everywhere in the Ghetto run by drug addicts and old prostitutes with no fear of the law. I helped a friend acquire the $50 needed for his girl friends abortion in Brooklyn, by robbing a storage locker behind a market of beer, and sell it the next day to Honest liquor stores.

Some who had no money, had their boy friends jump on their stomach hoping to have a miscarriage, others drank or douched with Ethylene Glycerol which was used as anti-freeze, some even used DRANO, a caustic soda used to clear clogged drains, ending any chance at future motherhood.

Others simply waited to give birth naturally and then abandoned the baby in a dumpster, or a public toilet. It got so bad that N.Y. Fire stations adopted a no tell policy for newborn babies. Bring your baby to any fire station and we will take care of it, no questions asked. There was no way they would go to the police.

Many of the abortions performed in these illegal abortion clinics went badly, and girls were dumped at emergency hospitals with torn uterus, coat hangers embedded in their vagina or severe infections that left them sterilized.



It takes 18 years to make a person, not 9 months, and many simply could not handle it.

1.The mentally challenged, delusional and insane .
2. Drug addicts who poison the child within.
3. Children who are impregnated.
4. Rape victims who do not wish to put their own father or brother in prison.
5. Violent rape victims who do not want to live with the result of the crime.
6. Medical conditions that the mother is unwilling or unable to cope with.

7. Good girls who loved a boyfriend who did not want marriage.

8. Prostitutes who had to keep working.



The situation got so bad that a Constitutional amendment guaranteeing professional medical care and reproductive right of choice was drafted and placed on the ballot in many states by Women's rights advocates. But Roe V. Wade was passed and the amendment was abandoned. Planned Parenthood was founded to provide women with professional medical advice. Most of the illegal abortion clinics closed for lack of customers.

No one knows how many illegal abortions were performed. No parental consent was required, and dead fetus were flushed down the toilet.

I can only assume we will return to the GOOD OLD DAYS if Republicans have their way and defund Planned Parenthood, that is assuming private funding doesn't take over.

 

The emotions at play right now deal with when a person becomes a person. Philosophical discussions consider the moment of conception thru childhood as a starting point. Fox News has taken to promoting dubious, clandestine video's as evidence, and Politicians are riding the wave of emotion showing 2" fetus as a grown baby; wanting to shut down the Government funding for a group that hasn't been charged, never mind convicted of any wrong doing.
But age has a disadvantage here as I remember the horror of the reality I lived. The Right to Life is not a guarantee! Reality can be CRUEL!

 

Of course this was a time when a man who impregnated a woman felt responsibility; like my friend who felt he had to pay for an abortion and help the girl through it. .

 

It is worth noting at this point in the article, that the misnamed Anti Abortion forces offer only punishment for a woman who cannot care for a child for 18 years.. There is very little talk of simplifying Adoption procedures, or offering foster care of the new born. Where are the Day Care facilities at High Schools and Community Colleges?

I not only remember all the good old days, I LIVED IT! I married a pregnant girl when I was 16 in New York, and it ruined not only my life, but the children that followed. But that is another story.
YES! Adoption and birth control are preferred to Abortion, but that is not the focus of the Right to Life zealots. They want to force women to have unwanted babies. What happens to that baby after it is born, is never mentioned.


People spend upwards of $50,000 USD to adopt children overseas because of the political morass in America, and a lack of coordination by Life groups.
That 50 thou could pay for a young mother to give birth and have a clear conscience about continuing her own life.
People on both sides of this issue are delusional and more concerned with controlling behavior, than saving lives.

 

Did you know that the first Polio Vaccine came from fetal tissue?
Fetal tissue is valuable for medical research; the National Institutes of Health spent $76 million on fetal research in 2014, and fetal tissue has contributed to vaccines for polio, rubella and chicken pox. While recent efforts to transplant fetal tissue to treat conditions like Parkinson’s haven’t been as consistently successful, it’s still critical to scientific progress.
http://time.com/3965176/fetal-tissue-research-planned-parenthood-video/
Perhaps one day my Diabetes will be cured, thanks to an unborn fetus!
I would like to see new clinics that promote alternatives such as adoption, scholarships, homes for mothers, subsidized child care/group homes, I think a morning after pill dispenser should be in every High School ladies room.


This whole issue has been so distorted, that many people imagine a fully formed child being removed, which is not the case. I just read about the procedure. The cervix is expanded and a suction device is inserted which removes any fluid and material from the uterus.   Zealots distort the issue by showing ultrasound pictures of late term abortions that can only be performed in extreme medical situations where the mothers health is in danger.
I have seen  7-9 month babies, and they are truly babies capable of sustaining life outside the womb. I think a woman who allows a pregnancy to go that far should be forced to continue to birth.


But how can you call something that has no brain or nervous system, and cannot live on it's own A CHILD? That is the great myth of the church.

Comments

Ric Wells Added Mar 27, 2017 - 12:01am
Expat excellent. The great falling of the right to lifers is how to raise the child after the birth takes place. How to feed clothe house educate etc. Adoption right now is not a viable answer but cause of the stringent and corrupt system. Great points all around.
Patrick Writes Added Mar 27, 2017 - 1:51am
"Politicians are riding the wave of emotion showing 2" fetus as a grown baby; wanting to shut down the Government funding for a group that hasn't been charged, never mind convicted of any wrong doing."
 
Why does the government need to fund Planned Parenthood if it performs abortions? 
Mircea Negres Added Mar 27, 2017 - 3:02am
Excellent post, EXPAT. You hit the nail big time and drew attention to things most TV advertisements and sound bite journalism rarely talk about, that is the reality which impels people to make one of the hardest decisions out there. I read somewhere a long time ago that the famous singer Dr. John used to work in a back alley abortion outfit. His job was to dispose of the fetuses in the sewers under New Orleans. Apparently it traumatised him so much that he started using heroin. 
 
Every government clinic and hospital has a free condom dispenser. The rubbers weren't all that great when I used them, but they generally worked and provided a cheaper alternative to Durex. Over nearly a decade the rate of AIDS infections dropped in South Africa, but lately it seems to be bouncing back among the youth because they've become complacent and aren't using condoms.
 
Now that's one problem. The others are that adoptions aren't keeping up with the child abandonment rate, babies are found dumped in garbage bins, public toilets, bushes and many other unsuitable places, orphanages constantly struggle for funding, girls who get pregnant are expelled from school, the state's child support grant to the poor is a joke which single mothers often spend on airtime for their phones or a trip to the hair salon and despite abortion being legal, many medical professionals (doctors and nurses) refuse to perform the procedure.
 
Add to it illegal clinics offering abortion-inducing drugs stolen from state hospitals, imported from Zimbabwe (where they were stolen) or expired and what you have is a rather complex social problem made up of other underlying complex issues which are not being addressed. Then to top it all, we get the Bible thumpers who like you said only think about the gestation period instead of the nearly two decades which follow the pineapple's exit. It's a screwed up world, but you have my thanks for calling it like it is.
wsucram15 Added Mar 27, 2017 - 3:38am
Thanks Expat..great article.
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 7:01am
Ric. The great failing of our political system in all social matters, is their failure to understand that different segments of our society have unique problems that ONE Law fits All legislation cannot account for.
They flippantly refer to "Unintended Consequences" when the cost of health care skyrockets for healthy people. Desperate young girls who see their whole future destroyed by the need to take care of a baby, cannot be forced to raise a child to become a productive citizen.  And yet they offer no alternatives, only punishment if you fail to be a good parent.
I would say "Women's lives Matter" if the term hadn't been made a cliché.
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 7:15am
Patrick Writes:
Why does the government need to fund Planned Parenthood if it performs abortions? 
 

Rehab Centers.
Prisoners Sex Change.
Golf Courses.
 
The answer is of course, that we elect representatives to chose what functions our gov. should be involved in. Individuals do not get to choose what they wish to support.
As far as Abortions go, we have been down this road before, and you KNOW it is a lie that abortions are funded by ANY federal funds. It is prevented by LAW!
That was the result of the Bush admin.
 
But the real answer is that we, as a society need to help young women in trouble, and not stamp a scarlet letter A, on their life!
Louis E Weeks Added Mar 27, 2017 - 7:18am
This seems an irresponsible statement:
 
I can only assume we will return to the GOOD OLD DAYS if Republicans have their way and defund Planned Parenthood, that is assuming private funding doesn't take over.
 
So first of all, there are a lot more providers of abortions than PP in America, yes they are the big name but their loss of funding will not be as large of an impact as some claim and let's remember this is their choice, they have said they want to close down all services if they can't perform abortions, so much for their claim they want to provide more than abortions to women.
 
 
At the end of the day I support the right of women to get an abortion, I simply ask those women to leave me and Government out of the issue, we were not in the room when they intentionally created the unwanted child so leave us out of the room when they kill it.
 
 
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 7:45am
Mircea.
Yes, the problems faced by SA are amplified in the Philippines, where the Catholic Church is all powerful. Both Abortion and contraception are prevented by law, so many horrors are perpetrated on both women and children. The unintended consequence is the best child prostitution and human trafficking source in the world.
 
About your Dr. John story; I find it impossible to believe, because I know New Orleans, and most of it is below the water level. That is why  the dead are in crypts. Caskets just kept floating to the surface.
They do not have sewers like Paris! Until the Corps of Engineers installed huge pumps to keep the place dry open sewers dumped directly into the Mississippi river. Now they have a closed system that goes to Lake Pontchartrain for processing.
A better story would be that he dumped dead baby's in the swamp to be eaten by Alligators.
I do know, he was fascinated with VooDoo, and may have gotten some dead fetuses from one of the Whore Houses which kept Doctors on call to make sure the girls didn't miss any nights of work.
Human body parts are much in demand for VooDoo rituals.
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 7:49am
Thanks wsucram15. But surely you know some young girls who have been through the Abortion experience.
A woman's point of view with actual stories would be greatly appreciated!
It is the human perspective that gets lost in these discussions!
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 8:23am
                              

Louis E Weeks. I agree it was irrespirable to use PP. I should have said, Overturn Roe V. Wade, but I was getting tired.
 
"At the end of the day I support the right of women to get an abortion, I simply ask those women to leave me and Government out of the issue, we were not in the room when they intentionally created the unwanted child so leave us out of the room when they kill it."
 
My irresponsible statement seems to have triggered your irresponsible statement.
 
I too wish you and Government would get out of this and most social issues.
You cannot be so simple minded to think all pregnancies were intentional.
And PLEASE stay out of the rooms you are not part of! But I sense a deep need in you to meddle in others lives, even when it doesn't concern you!
Shane Laing Added Mar 27, 2017 - 9:14am
Excellent article Expat my sentiments exactly.  Very good lady friend of mine had a horrendous experience. The fact that she became pregnant due to it was almost too much for her to bare. Contemplating suicide. Abortion was the only option.  She still has nightmares.  I really don't think that any woman who goes through such an horrific should be made to bare a child. No man can possibly understand what women are going through in cases such as this. If they could perhaps they would think differently. 
Nancy Rexford Added Mar 27, 2017 - 9:56am
EXPAT Great article. You raise issues that people do not want to admit to. Specifically that punishment of the woman who dares to have sex outside of marriage needs to be punished by having a child out of wedlock.
The women were called vile names and the child was labeled bastards.
I was a young woman at the time of row v wade and was glad when it was passed.
I will say that I have always been proactive I took my birth control pill religiously every morning at 6am.  Others are not so careful.
 
Things are different as you say the biggest difference is that women are now having children that that should not have ever been created. We are now in the position of dealing with women who should never be allowed to produce children because they do not have the skill to be a parent.
Instead of opting for adoption they choose to inflict their life style upon innocent helpless people.
Given that reality for most children opting for Abortion is the most humane thing they could do for these beings.
 
I have always been pro abortion and support women's right to terminate a pregnancy. In my own life I always had a fund available to fund a termination should one be necessary.
 
The lack of personal responsibility of today's women is appalling.
 
I
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 27, 2017 - 10:20am
I fail to see how something that doesn't affect me in any negative way is any of my business or the business of anyone who isn't directly involved. How I think, feel either emotionally or morally, or anything else doesn't matter one bit. It's her/their decision and no one else's. Full stop. Freedom. Full stop 
William Stockton Added Mar 27, 2017 - 10:24am
Good write-up Expat.  Evangelocons, unfortunately, still linger as moral "authoritarians" within the republican party.  
We all knew that if Trump won, this old and dying sect of moral-magoritarians would think this is the rise, again, of religious conservatism.  They are sadly mistaken.  This isn't your daddy's republican party anymore from the 1970's.  People are fed-up with the moral imposition from both sides.
Billy Roper Added Mar 27, 2017 - 10:56am
About sixty million unborn babies have been killed through abortion since it was legalized, less than a generation ago. That's about six times the number the Jews claim for the Holocaust. The majority of them, though, have been nonWhite, so that's cool with me. Some day abortion will only be applied eugenically, and then it will be a tool to advance the species, not just homicidal after-the fact birth control for those too lazy or irresponsible to put anything else, even another life, above their own convenience.
Dino Manalis Added Mar 27, 2017 - 11:09am
It's a personal moral decision and should be respected as such.
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 11:37am
                                        

Shane Laing.
Men can walk away from the result of a sex act, but the woman is left to care for the aftermath. Most can handle it, to their credit, but to those who cannot, eliminating a life of deprivation for a future child and the damage to society it will do as an adult, is a logical alternative. 
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 11:57am
Nancy.
We all long for a perfect world and try to block the ugly reality. As you point out, a woman is expected to be virtuous, and I think many blame a woman for getting pregnant, even when it is forced.
I forget the particulars, but an elected politician once said publically that it was a medical fact that a woman who is raped, cannot get pregnant. That the body has a natural defense.
Such attitudes are also shared by some women who have never been exposed to the life in a ghetto, or a male dominated culture that forces child brides to bear children. Most women I know, would do anything for their child. For a woman to end a pregnancy, must require a desperation that men cannot imagine.
The least we can do for them as a society, is to allow them medical care, and the opportunity to continue THEIR life as best they can.
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 12:06pm
Jeffry.
You and I can accept a society alien to what we were taught, because we believe you have a right to chose how you live. What you say is spot on. But that is not the way the majority see's it.
Their way is the only way, and they are willing to destroy anyone who does not comply.
Freedom is only a myth to the person who does not accord it to others.
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 12:14pm
William.
Conformity is the enemy of freedom! The society that demands conformity also demands we suppress what we think is right, in order to exist.
That is totalitarianism no matter if it comes from a Conservative or a Liberal.
 
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 12:23pm
Billy.
Is mankind wise enough to choose which traits are the most desired?
Seems I remember your perfect race got their ass kicked in the 1936 Olympics by the BLACK son of an Alabama share cropper.
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 12:24pm
Dino.
The key word is PERSONAL!
Ric Wells Added Mar 27, 2017 - 12:40pm
Expat any form of government demands a certain amount of conformity. Any group tgat wishes to bond together has formed a society therefore a government of done kind. Without it there is anarchy. And every persons definition of freedom is different. The only way to avoid any form of conformity is through death. 
Jenifer Frost Added Mar 27, 2017 - 12:41pm
Damn good article Espat I applaud you for going there on this forum. I myself have never had an abortion and am generally against them in principle, for myself. But I would never impose my own beliefs on others, nor should anyone in a supposedly free country. 
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 12:42pm
Billy.
In case you think Jesse Owen was a freak. The most intelligent people are JEWS!
The Nobel Prize is an annual, international prize first awarded in 1901 for achievements in Physics, Chemistry, Physiology or Medicine, Literature, and Peace. An associated prize in Economics has been awarded since 1969.[1] Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 881 individuals,[2] of whom 196 - over 20% - were Jewish or people of Jewish descent,[Note 1] although Jews and people of Jewish descent comprise less than 0.2% of the world's population [3]
Jews or people of Jewish descent have been recipients of all six awards, including 41% of economics, 28% of medicine, 26% of physics, 19% of chemistry, 13% of literature and 9% of all peace awards.[4] The first Jewish recipient, Adolf von Baeyer, was awarded the prize in Chemistry in 1905. As of 2016[update], the most recent Jewish recipients included J. Michael Kosterlitz (physics), Oliver Hart (economics) and Bob Dylan (literature).
Jewish laureates Elie Wiesel and Imre Kertész survived the extermination camps during the Holocaust,[5] while François Englert survived by being hidden in orphanages and children's homes.[6] Others, such as Walter Kohn, Otto Stern, Albert Einstein, Hans Krebs and Martin Karplus had to flee Nazi Germany to avoid persecution.[7][8][9] Still others, including Rita Levi-Montalcini,
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 12:44pm
 Still others, including Rita Levi-Montalcini, Herbert Hauptman, Salvador Luria, Robert Furchgott, Arthur Kornberg, and Jerome Karle experienced significant antisemitism in their careers.[8][10]
The oldest person ever to receive a Nobel Prize was Leonid Hurwicz, a Polish-American Jew who received the 2007 prize in Economics when he was 90 years old.[11]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 1:18pm
Ric.
You mistake rules and laws for conformity. You can drive on the right side of the road and go home to 3 women all living together and eating vegan Italian food.
I agree that Government tries to regulate every facet of life, but it is our job to prevent it! Abortion laws are only one area where Government has no control. Every society has abortions no matter how strict the control.
 
I escaped conformity by coming to Thailand, where true freedom only requires that I do no harm to others.
Jeff Jackson Added Mar 27, 2017 - 1:25pm
Good work Expat. This is the reason I do not fit the Republican profile. All the Republicans have to say is that they don't want the "Big Brother" government making the decisions of our lives or the government insisting on knowing what is decided by a woman and her doctor. The Republicans can say it is an issue of privacy and leave it the way it is, because they don't want the government interfering with peoples' lives. As far as embryonic testing. I watched an uncle die of ALS. Anyone who objects to embryonic testing should watch someone die, 5 minutes a day, during the last phase of ALS and then tell me that the cells in a test tube are more valuable than someone watching their central nervous system disintegrate while they remain perfectly cognizant. ALS wouldn't be as cruel if it made you lose your mind, but you are fully aware all the way to death. This is all just the Republicans playing "Big Brother" and they just need to say these things are medical, not political, and they represent freedom, the freedom for citizens to make decisions about their bodies without the interference of the government. 
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 1:31pm
Jenifer.
Most women, like you, have enough control over their lives, to not need an abortion. There is nothing more beautiful than Motherhood.
But for those living a life of dependency and abuse, pregnancy can be just an extension of servitude.
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 1:38pm
Jeff Jackson.
Spot on! I also believe a person should have the right to chose a clinical assisted death when life becomes unbearable. Who's life is it anyway?
Jeff Jackson Added Mar 27, 2017 - 1:55pm
With you there too, as long as they are proven mentally capable, and not mentally ill. I was reading of a man in Holland who was an incurable alcoholic who had the doctor inject him with the deadly poison. He had been to rehab, get this, twenty-seven times. It was time to end the madness. Those Heinekens sure are good, but not worth that. 
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 2:06pm
Jeff. Mental illness can be even more painful than physical. Who knows better than you when it is time to go?
I read of a case where a man committed suicide by beating his head against a wall.
wsucram15 Added Mar 27, 2017 - 6:02pm
Actually Expat, unfortunately I do.  Years ago, being Epileptic when medicine was not what it is today, my neurologist talked me into a late term abortion (6 months) and it did not go well. (the body chemistry changes during pregnancy and seizure control is VERY difficult during pregnancy). 
At least at that time late term abortion, was not what people think and it was very traumatic, because you literally have to go through the birth process. It was supposed to take a few hours and they believed it wasnt going to work on me, well it did and I was by myself and delivered the dead fetus. (sorry guys)
I am sure it didnt work like that for everyone, but it left a mark on me that was permanent.  While I am still pro-choice, at that point, it became something I am against after 3 months unless it is a serious situation, like rape, incest or medical.   I have talked many women out of abortion for this reason and supported some that had late term abortions for the reasons above.
 
I have worked with a lot of addicts and homeless women. The incident of rape and pregnancy is ridiculous. The odd thing is they dont always know they are pregnant. Like I knew immediately and was pleased but ran into complications. 
Some women though really dont know until well into the third, sometimes fourth month. By then its too late and they have ingested enough drugs or even overdosed and thats how they found out.  Later term abortions are very expensive and often you have to go to specific states to get them done.  But for an addict, I strongly encourage it, I have seen the damage to a baby born addicted or without fully developed body parts.  They eventually die, but why should they suffer at all.   A baby born addicted has long term affects, they dont just grow out of it. My BF and his ex wife, adopted 4 such children of addicts years ago, no one wanted them due to the expense.  Two died, one is an institutionalized schizophrenic and the other is kind of normal but a heroin addict.
 
Homeless women also have issues without proper pre-natal care and often abused.  This isnt as common but it does happen, its not like these women get great medical care.  You know?
 
When people that are pro-life yell and scream at people trying to get free contraceptives it makes me sick, it really does.  No human being should have to suffer with a lifelong disease, specifically one of the brain or one that inhibits your quality of life.   But I cannot disagree with a later term abortion based on not crap I read, but my own experience.
 
No person has a right to tell you what to do with your body..no one, it is your decision and believe me, you have to live with the outcome.
EXPAT Added Mar 27, 2017 - 11:46pm
Jeanne.
Thank you so much for putting a human face to this subject. Women who cannot see a pregnancy to term, are not murderers of babies! They are people with special needs that must be addressed, no matter how painful the decision may be.
 
My purpose in posting this article was to try and wake the zealots from their categorizing and name calling, to the fact that life can be an agonizing choice for many, as opposed to a discussion of ideals.
 
I believe that a 7-9 month old unborn child has a right to life as it is a viable life, except in circumstance that endangers the mother. But alternatives should be offered such as adoption, or live in care for younger mothers. Surely the Right To Life believers are willing to contribute their homes and fortunes to the unborn they profess to protect.
 
When my wife gave birth, the Dr. asked me to sign a waver that stated my preference if things went badly. Save the Mother, or save the baby? I always chose the Mother. An existing life V. a potential life. I believe our duty is to the living.
EXPAT Added Mar 28, 2017 - 12:23am
Long ago, when I was a young man, my first wife and I were asked to be God Parents for my best friends child.
I don't know if this is still a custom as I no longer am active in a church.
 
I was expected by the church to help raise the child in the church, and help in any way I could to contribute to the child's well being. To be a source of comfort when the mother was sick. To babysit when the parents wanted a night out. To provide financial aid if needed! And  I swore to adopt the child if both parents suddenly died.
 
Most of the right to life Legislation people, instead of criminalizing a mother who cannot cope with the situation, could adopt this old religious tradition, and become God Parents for a young mother who wants to keep her child, but needs help!
 
Are the Lifer's good Christians or hypocrites? With today's Social media, it should be easy to find an expectant mother considering abortion,who would keep her child, if she was given help!
 
If you believe in the sanctity of Life, then prove it through personal action, not just votes that pass the responsibility for another person on someone who cannot meet challenge!
wsucram15 Added Mar 28, 2017 - 3:05am
I have protested for pro-choice and am firm on that, HOWEVER, ALL the organizations I work with including Planned Parenthood and NARAL, know how I feel.   I am very supportive of contraceptives and education.
I think if women were helped more and given more alternatives, it might help bring children to term. Some of these people really dont have the funds, some arent very bright, and others just dont care at that time.  
But I do believe that into 6 months the child is a fetus and thats the cut off point, I have seen it and if a women had to see that, she would NEVER do that. 
 
Expat, the problem with this is people in the US is they want PERFECT. They dont want the throwaways. I had this argument with my brother and his wife when they did en-vitro, I wanted them to adopt.
People want their own children or perfect...Do you know how many kids are homeless or live in foster care?  428,000 down from 670,000 in 2015, BUT at some point this formal total includes a total of 380,000 youth considered runaways/those who dont identify as homeless.   Technically, Expat..that would have been me from 16-18, although I had an apartment, went to school, had strait A's (part of the deal) and worked.  But I was no where near my parents or family. But I had plenty of "family", weird....
Perhaps when people also realize that some women should not have those children.  Which to be honest is my largest concern.  Living as I have with a disability all my life and bringing a drug addicted or severely handicapped child who most likely will not know real love, to me is not an option. 
Other than that, I think children should be adopted, there are so many people that want to adopt, I also have friends that have been through this process both here and in China.
 
Mircea Negres Added Mar 28, 2017 - 4:36am
EXPAT, with apologies to you and the estimable Dr. John, if New Orleans is the wrong city, then the fault is mine alone because I read that article many years ago. Thanks for pointing out my error.
Billy Roper Added Mar 28, 2017 - 7:52am
EXPAT, do you think that the Nobel prize board is some kind of objective, non-biased collection of fair-minded people without an ideological axe to grind? LOL Those are the same people who gave Obama a peace prize. For those interested in learning what eugenics is all about, let me recommend this short five minute video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSJCuE2w-8U&feature=youtu.be
 
Billy Roper Added Mar 28, 2017 - 7:53am
Jewish doctors are also overrepresented among the ranks of abortion providers, vastly so.
EXPAT Added Mar 28, 2017 - 8:05am
Mircea.
The human mind is an enigma. We read or witness an event, and immediately adjust our information to fit our perception model. Over time, our subconscious fills in any blanks, or adjusts troubling information to make it acceptable to what we already believe.
 
Often this process comes in dreams, but more often the troubling information is adjusted by the sub conscious without our even knowing.
 
For many years, I quoted Guy de Maupassant work "The Necklace" as "A string of pearls." I have no idea at what stage in life my mind made the change. Perhaps I read a similar piece about a String of pearls. I maintained the essence of the work, but some details changed.
 
There are many cases of analysts implanting ideas that become reality to the patient. One case was a Children's Day Care in California, where children were manipulated to believe they were molested, and forced to participate in Satanic rituals, that never took place.
 
Adult women have had vivid memories of being molested by their father, only to have them disproven in a court. The same for Rape victims.
 
In your mind the Dr. John story was a distant memory which may have been planted by a person or group wanting to embellish an Image.
That is what Dr. John was, an image, a persona designed to entice audiences and entertain!
EXPAT Added Mar 28, 2017 - 8:15am
Jeanne.
My son also went to China to adopt. Both were well educated and had permanent jobs. He was a scientist for the State of California, and she a Registered nurse.
Despite being perfect parents with a Son, they wanted a girl to round out the family. They were told it would take years to complete the process in America.
There is something very wrong with our Human Services.
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 28, 2017 - 8:40am
EXPAT, I am from that era also.  Didn't get a women pregnant.  Knew I and she were responsible and knew how one gets pregnant.  Guess both of you missed that lesson. 
 
The founders, Jeudo-Christian theology said life starts when the "baby stirs in the womb."  At that point as a human it has all the rights of any other human that walks and talks etc..  This was well before medical technology learned so much.
 
Roe V Way is actually about three supreme court decisions where the definition of when a fetus becomes a human with all the rights of any other human occurs.  Still that fundimental Jeudo-Christian theology again.  My understanding and I think I recall the result accurately 95%.  The first three months the woman is free to choose and government hase no say.  I think this is the period before "stirring in the womb occurs."   The next months the government has a say and states have various bills for this period.  The Supreme Court define human as starting when a fetus is viable with assistance out side the womb.  That by fact of birth is 22 wks.   From that point on an abortion is a homicide by their ruling.  
 
My questing to all of you what is acceptable in the middle months.  The court records of the trial of the doctor convicted of murders of a mother and murder of babies is alarming to me.  The state law place the regulation of the clinic under a department of health which also inspects restaurants.   The clinic in question was not inspected for years and did not come in when called by the police raid for drug trafficking, yes that was when the police investigated.  More then two women died in the clinic prior and one resulted in the murder conviction.  Restaurants get a better and more frequent inspection.  And that state from the reporters is not alone.
 
The doctor was not charged with dozens of more babies deaths because the state statistics would be skewed and reputation destroyed but the evidence was there.  He killed babies after natural births.
 
So you tell me where do you want the limits.  When is a fetus HUMAN? 
EXPAT Added Mar 28, 2017 - 9:24am
Saint Thomas Sutrina.
How wise and unemotional you are. Always in control. My equanimity has never equaled my passion, and I have done things I would later regret. It is amazing how alcohol can make a woman more desirable, and the risk of unprotected sex a distant consideration.
You are a paragon of Elizabethan Virtue, while I am a mere slave to passion!
 
I suppose you missed my comment to Jeanne:
I believe that a 7-9 month old unborn child has a right to life as it is a viable life, except in circumstance that endangers the mother. But alternatives should be offered such as adoption, or live in care for younger mothers. Surely the Right To Life believers are willing to contribute their homes and fortunes to the unborn they profess to protect.
 
I imagine you were too self involved to realize I agree with your time frame for human development, but that is not the issue here.
Let me spell it out for you!
Should a woman, incapable of caring for herself, be forced to raise a child?
 
I suggest you get your head out of your Youtube, for a brief time and meet some people.
 
That is why I thanked Jeanne for sharing her HUMAN experience, and a look at what goes into making a decision to abort a pregnancy.
I don't give a Rat's Ass about your , Jeudo-Christian theology.  I care about people!
 
Nancy Rexford Added Mar 28, 2017 - 9:37am
Expat I also remember the idiot congress person who said "If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to shut that whole thing down." his name was Todd Akin he lost his Senate bid shortly thereafter in 2012 to Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.).
 
In all of this talk of abortion I think that he one thing everyone should keep in mind it is the woman who carries an has the child. it is she who is stuck taking care of it, once produced it cannot be given back there are no do overs.
Her decision to terminate is no one else's business.
EXPAT Added Mar 28, 2017 - 9:45am
Billy.
I realize that you and your Nazi friends are the only: ...objective, non-biased collection of fair-minded people without an ideological axe to grind? 
But like the fool that I am, I think the Nobel committee is a better source of judgment than you, even though they did become political and give Obama, a peace prize, they are still well respected.
 
I don't need your link to Eugenics! Like I stated it failed. Period! You and your ilk, have no idea what an ideal man is!
EXPAT Added Mar 28, 2017 - 9:51am
Nancy.
There are many more Cozen representatives out there who believe a victim shares the blame! But they are smart enough to hide it!
John Minehan Added Mar 28, 2017 - 10:46am
An old acquaintance of mine, then a Republican member of the NY State Senate, supported NYS liberalization of its abortion laws in 1970 at the cost of his political career. 
 
He happened to be VMI Class of 1940 and he apparently learned something about being willing to pay a price for doing what you believ to be the right thing there.
 
In my opinion, we would have been better off following the approach advocated by Robert Drinan, S.J., Esq., who advocated the de-criminalization of abortion, leaving it regulated by the states.  But that is an opinion on law and political science, rather than what the "right" thing to do for people in bad circumstances should be.  
Ric Wells Added Mar 28, 2017 - 10:55am
Expat I laugh and cringe at the same time when I hear the Judeo-Christian argument when it comes to abortion. On all other issues it's talk to the hand.
Bill Kamps Added Mar 28, 2017 - 12:43pm
Louis, while abortion is legal, in many states there are efforts to put the clinics out of business by passing regulations.  It not just PP that the right is fighting, they are fighting this on a number of fronts, and largely winning.
 
Expat, you are correct. If the right was so adamant that the babies should be born, then they should do more to take care of them after they are born.  That would not eliminate the need for abortions, but it would make the decision more often come out on the side of adoption.  Foster care is a hell on earth  in most cases which no mother wants to send their child into.  Easier adoption procedures would help a lot.
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 28, 2017 - 1:11pm
The start of my response above was dumb.  Expat you and she acted responsibly with is great.  And I acted responsibly also.  That is what society expects.  
 
I presented three views of abortion that exist in America.  religious, legal, and in application.  The application showed that the arguments for legalizing abortion for the safety of the mother never materialized.  And the rights of the fetus and even baby minutes our of the womb, breathing on their own was of no consequence in practice.  The legal system turned a blind eye to it.  Reporters and the author of a book on the subject said this was not an isolated case.  Since data was not collected the real scale is unknown.
 
I asked a question, when is a fetus a human with all the rights?  This is the answer in European:  
Austria 12wk, Belgium 12wk, Bulgaria 12wk, Cyprus 29wk, Czech Rep, 12wk, Denmark 12wk, Faroe Isl 16wk, Estonia 12wk, Finland 24wk, France 12wk, Germany 12wk, Greece 12wk, Hungary 12wk, Ireland strict, Italy 12wk, Latvia 12wk, Lithuania 12wk, Luxembourg 12wk, Malta none, Netherlands 13wk, Poland 12wk, Portugal 16wk, Romania 14wk, Slovakia 12wk, Slovenia 10wk, Spain 22wk, Sweden 18wk, and United Kingdom 24wk
Answer in the USA:
AL 20wk, AK none, AZ PB ban, AR 20wk, CA endang, CO none, CT endang, DE endang, DC none, FL 24wk, GA 20wk, HI endang, ID endang, IL endang, IN 20wk, IA 3rd, KS 20wk, KY 20wk, LA 20wk, ME endang, MD endang, MA 24wk MI endang & PB ban, MN 24wk, MS 20wk, MO endang, MT endang, NE 20wk, NV 24wk, NH PB ban, NY none, NM PB ban?, NY 24wk, NC 20wk, ND 20wk, OH PB ban, OK 20wk, OR none, PA 24wk, RI 24wk, SC 20wk, SD 24wk, TN PB ban, UT PB ban, VT none, VA endang PB ban, WA endang, WV 20wk, WI endang, and WY endang 
wsucram15 Added Mar 28, 2017 - 1:23pm
Expat, it is sad that America is so backwards. There are so many children under 6 years of age that have no homes or live in foster care which means they might be better off homeless.  It might be a toss up..not sure.
I still have two adult children...with 3 Grand kids that I end up taking care of..so I try not to take on any more responsibility in that area, except volunteer work.  But when I was younger, I had kids in my house everywhere,(some of the parents had issues).  In fact one of the young men I helped raise, just dropped me off from a day at the store.  He had a rough life and sometimes he made it worse. But he learned.
 
Anyway..if people just put themselves out there for the kids, it might help.  Thanks for what you have done and thank your son and his wife.  Adoption is difficult..but I know from the kids I had at my house, the time and energy was rewarded. 
 
 
J. Riddle Added Mar 28, 2017 - 2:41pm
"I can only assume we will return to the GOOD OLD DAYS if Republicans have their way and defund Planned Parenthood"
 
That's a matter that should be handled with greater care than it was in that sentence. No public funds go to abortion. That's been the status quo since the mid-'70s. Planned Parenthood isn't "funded" by the government either; when people say that, they're referring to poor people on Medicaid who get services through PP. Since Medicaid is a government program, that's the source of the money but the government isn't writing a check every year to keep PP in business and none of the money from the actual reimbursements is spent on abortion.
 
In the pre-Roe days, one of my great aunts took a knitting-needle to herself in an effort to deal with a pregnancy. She died. Those who would return to those days--and make no mistake, the GOP certainly would--fall into two categories: the historically illiterate and outright animals.
EXPAT Added Mar 28, 2017 - 6:01pm
John Minahan.
There is no place in Politics for people with integrity!
Having said that, I suggest we, as a people start acting in the best interest of the INDIVIDUAL.
 
When there is a conflict between the potential life and the existing life, the existing life must take precedence as it is a fully developed PERSON. Many potential lives could be saved by those who claim to be Pro-Life, but it is far easier and cheaper to pass laws committing OTHERS to 18 years of servitude, and children to abused and unwanted futures.
 
My Prayer: "GOD save me from your followers!"
 
EXPAT Added Mar 28, 2017 - 6:12pm
Ric. The Catholic church used to be a leader in providing Homes for Unwed mothers, orphanages and hospitals for the poor. They offered alternatives to women who wanted to keep their babies and hopefully turn their life around.
I don't know how the Church became punitive to SINNERS, rather than compassionate to the troubled.
EXPAT Added Mar 28, 2017 - 6:17pm
Bill Kamps. AGREED! But it is far easier to prohibit than to promote. And like most things today it is the appearance of solving a problem that takes precedence over a viable solution.
Ric Wells Added Mar 28, 2017 - 6:19pm
First you have the contraception battle between American catholic church and Rome. Then the division of understanding sex outside tge marriage and living together. Now comes the abortion issue into play followed by priests and nuns being pedifiles. Granted the Catholic Church is one if the richest corporations in the world but not enough money is filtered down. Another example of the falling if trickle diwn economics. So bottom line it is cheaper to turn away than to help.
EXPAT Added Mar 28, 2017 - 6:44pm
Thomas. Thank you for clarifying your position. But the European concept of a 12 week fetus being a person is idiocy.
target="_blank" rel="img">First Trimester: The Baby at 12 Weeks

The nerves and muscles begin to work together. Your baby can make a fist.
The external sex organs show if your baby is a boy or girl. A woman who has an rel="proc">ultrasound in the target="_blank" rel="img">second trimester or later might be able to find out the baby's sex.
Eyelids close to protect the developing eyes. They will not open again until the 28th week.
Head growth has slowed, and your baby is much longer. Now, at about 3 inches long, your baby weighs almost an ounce.

A person has a right to defend itself in court. Do you think a 3" inch partially developed fetus that cannot breath, speak or even exist on its own can do that?
 
Society and the courts have determined that a person is not fully responsible for their actions until the age of 18. We make special consideration in Children's Courts because they can't be expected to understand the consequence of their action.
That is why I say it is idiocy and hypocritical to declare a partial person equal to a fully functional person.
EXPAT Added Mar 28, 2017 - 6:48pm
Jeanne.
Anyway..if people just put themselves out there for the kids, it might help. 
The answer to ALL our social problems!
EXPAT Added Mar 28, 2017 - 7:02pm
J. Riddle.
As I responded to: Louis E Weeks. I agree it was irrespirable to use PP. I should have said, Overturn Roe V. Wade, but I was getting tired.   
The spirit of the statement remains the same. Without protection, POOR women will return to The good old days of illegal abortion with no control by government, as evidenced around the world today, especially the Philippines where the Catholic Church dominates .
 
I agree I should have used greater care. It is common to associate abortion with PP, and I was writing to common people, not intellectuals.
wsucram15 Added Mar 28, 2017 - 8:23pm
No Expat..just part of the answer for this thread.  What other problems should we tackle smart ass?
EXPAT Added Mar 29, 2017 - 12:04am
                                        

wsucram15 Added Mar 28, 2017 - 8:23pm

 



No Expat..just part of the answer for this thread.  What other problems should we tackle smart ass?
 
This can't be Jeanne. It has to be the dumb kid! I was expressing a sincere belief that all our social problems begin in childhood.
EXPAT Added Mar 29, 2017 - 12:08am
wsucram15 Added Mar 28, 2017 - 8:23pm
 
No Expat..just part of the answer for this thread.  What other problems should we tackle smart ass?
 
This can't be Jeanne. It has to be the dumb kid! I was expressing a sincere belief that all our social problems begin in childhood.
EXPAT Added Mar 29, 2017 - 12:26am
Steve Bergeron.
I made a vow, not to call delusional people STUPID, so I will just say that you are incredibly delusional.
1. The SCOTUS ruled that Abortion is NOT murder. But Lord Bergeron declares it is. Ho Hum.
2. Just the facts man! Your silly twisting is just more denial. Go Pray for enlightenment.
3. The law of the land is that a woman has a right to chose! How many children have you saved by helping the Mother?
 
Fact is that a Fat old Man, has no right judging a woman in trouble! The only question here is: Should a woman, incapable of caring for herself, be forced to raise a child?
Shane Dean Added Mar 29, 2017 - 1:46am
Expat.  Another good one.  Just going to leave it at that.
Shane Dean Added Mar 29, 2017 - 1:59am
Well, Ok one more comment.  Why do so many far right people insist on forcing a person to be born then don't give a crap about any of the problems these kids face afterwards?  And for those of you who say you do care, I want to know how many foster children you have had in your homes?  How much time, money, or material have you given to these children or their disadvantaged families?  How many hours have you donated to programs that help develop stronger kids, like Boys and Girls club or other worthy endeavors?  Don't bother answering, because when I have posed these questions to other people, the answer 99% of the time has been no help with any of these problems.  And by the holier than thou tone I am seeing in some of the responses, I can bet the answers would be the same.  Looking at you, Steve Bergeron and Thomas Sutrina.
EXPAT Added Mar 29, 2017 - 7:12am
Shane. We re of the same mind. You have encapsulated the purpose of this article. Don't tell other people how to live, if you are not willing to help them!!!!!!!!
Passing Laws is like passing gas. It my feel good at the time, but there is always residual in your skivvies.
EXPAT Added Mar 29, 2017 - 7:15am
P.S. The most vociferous advocates of right to life are also the advocates for death penalty, when an unwanted, fatherless child kills another unwanted, fatherless child.
Benjamin David Steele Added Mar 29, 2017 - 8:33am
There has been a long complicated history of abortions. In most societies across most of history, abortions were legal and common. But whether legal or not and whether safe or not, woman have always sought abortions for many reasons, often because lack of contraception and poverty.
 
Even legality wasn't as big of an issue as we now think. When abortions were illegal earlier in US history, they were commonly done and often in a rather straightforward fashion.
 
One of my ancestors was a country doctor in Indiana, from the late 1800s to the early 1900s. Abortions were technically illegal, but he performed abortions. That was typical at the time and there were rarely any prosecutions for breaking the law. It was a strongly Christian area and yet abortions were considered acceptable by community standards.
 
Those early abortion laws were often more about protecting women from dangerous abortion methods than in stopping abortions as a standard practice by respectable doctors. Maybe that should still be the emphasis of abortion laws today.
 
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2016/07/22/feticide-conviction/87440440/
 
“The court also said that because many of the state abortion laws dating tothe 1800s explicitly protect pregnant women from prosecution, it was a stretch to believe that lawmakers intended for the feticide law to be used against pregnant women who attempt to terminate a pregnancy.”
 
http://www.connerprairie.org/education-research/indiana-history-1800-1860/women-and-the-law-in-early-19th-century
 
“In the early nineteenth century abortion simply did not elicit as much comment or controversy as today. Though not openly encouraged – and condemned in some circles – it was not necessarily dismissed out of hand if done early enough into the pregnancy. Abortion before “quickening,” the first signs of fetal movement, usually during the second trimester, was generally considered acceptable. “Most forms of abortion were not illegal and those women who wished to practice it did so.” As there were no laws specifically addressing abortion in the America of 1800, the only source for guidance was, again, English common law, which recognized quickening. […]
 
“These earliest abortion laws must be viewed contextually to be properly understood. In the main, they were not promulgated out of any fervor over the “morality” of abortion. As mentioned, quickening was generally accepted by both the courts and the public as the pivotal issue in abortion. Abortion was not generally considered immoral or illegal if performed prior to fetal movement. Because this was so widely accepted most American women did not have to “face seriously the moral agonies so characteristic of the twentieth century.” That Indiana’s law did not specifically mention quickening should not be seen as a step away from the doctrine. Instead, it is likely further evidence that quickening was so ingrained that it need not be especially written into the statute. […]
 
“Whatever the reasons, Indiana had an “anti-abortion” measure on the books after 1835. It seems to have been a law little regarded and little enforced. It also seems unlikely that it prevented many women who wished an abortion from obtaining one. Chemical or natural agents for producing abortions were readily available if a woman knew where to look – and most knew exactly where to fix their gaze. Mid-wives knew all the secrets; druggists advertised appropriate potions; medical texts provided answers.
 
“To judge the relative importance lawmakers attached to abortion, one need only compare the penalties involved. Assisting in an abortion, or performing a self-abortion, was punishable by a maximum fine of $500.00 and a year in the county jail. Burglary’s penalty was fourteen years in the state prison; murder (analogous in some modern minds with abortion) was a capital offense. Clearly, the state of Indiana did not equate abortion with murder, or even stealing your neighbor’s silver service.”
 
http://civilwarrx.blogspot.com/2014/11/her-daily-concern-womens-health-issues.html
 
“As the above indicates, abortion, like birth control information, became more available between 1830 and 1850. That period saw a mail order and retail abortifacient drug trade flourish. A woman could send away for certain pills or discreetly purchase them at a store. Surgical methods were “available, but dangerous.” This openness and commercial availability was mainly a feature of northern urban areas. Like much other technological and cultural change, it was later in its arrival in the midwest, and the average midwestern woman likely had a more difficult time in obtaining an abortion than her eastern, urban counterpart if she desired one.
 
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 29, 2017 - 8:42am
The typical comment that the life experience of the person that would have happened would be horrible so make the choice for them and end life before a thousand breaths are taken (choose this because without enforcing the law  which we know happens a fetuses become babies and are killed in minutes of birth).   You believe fairness and caring.  Is not this decision a lack of both?  You present this a fair to society but it is equally unfair to the baby.  You promote distribution of wealth so is it fair that a baby does not gets its "fair" portion of life so it too can get it's "fair" portion of wealth.  That is both caring and fair.   You seem to me to play very loose with that is fair and caring and really are saying what is best for me and those I know.  The fetus is less know then the mother to me so I discard  all sense of fairness and caring because I can choose to ignore the biological facts.  The mother I know so it is much harder to ignore her.  
 
You see the answer that you have been fed for years does not even follow the rules also fed to you.  And if you look at more of those rules and application you will be stunned to find how many contradictions between the words and practice.  I suspect you will not look.
 
PS  the death penalty is for taking a life.
Benjamin David Steele Added Mar 29, 2017 - 8:46am
Here is one of the biggest issues that gets ignored. In country comparisons, countries that ban abortions either increase or don't lower the rate of abortions. All that happens is abortions become illegal and so more dangerous.
 
The only way to prevent abortions is to prevent unwanted pregnancies. And the only proven way to prevent unwanted pregnancies is wide availability of full sex education, birth control, family planning, and other similar things. It turns out that pro-choice is pro-life and anti-choice is anti-life.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 29, 2017 - 9:04am
P.S. The most vociferous advocates of right to life are also the advocates for......
 
.....alright ya little fucker now that you're here sink or swim! Only the strong survive.
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 29, 2017 - 11:54am
rather than in raw emotion driven by.....
 
...that nasty nonsense you hear from the pulpit you imagine some mythical imaginary guy in the sky has commanded from on high. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 29, 2017 - 12:18pm
There is no god you pathetic prat. Only the deeply disturbed believe such nonsense.  Besides, you got and continue to be emotional about chiding someone else for the emotion you projected on them. 
 
Seek help. 
 
Soon.
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 29, 2017 - 1:58pm
Benjamin, did you not read the example I gave of the abortion doctor convicted of murdering a mother and multiple babies (birth occurred).  And the state chose to not enforce the sanitary laws much less the abortion laws for years, and even decade.  That same department inspected restaurants an order of magnitude more often.  So budget issues was not the problem.  They did not come when the police raided the clinic.  
 
Benjamin this a reporter that wrote a book is not an isolated case or an isolated state.  The practice of partial birth abortions not legal in this doctors state were solved by sending the mother to another state.    But the convictions of murder of babies was for birth and partial birth abortions so he broke the law anyway.
 
Benjamin so the fact is that abortions is not for the health reason in practice because the clinics can be less sanitary then a public bathroom and the clinics do not follow or have the equipment for complications which is why women have died.  So what may I ask is the difference between illegal and legal abortions?  NOTHING!
EXPAT Added Mar 29, 2017 - 2:53pm
Benjamin.
Yes, the issue of who controls a woman's body has a full rich history, and always seems to deteriorate into a Philosophical discussion of what God intended.
 
I personally believe that the loss of any life, no matter what stage of development is a tragedy.
 
But life is made up of tragedy.
EXPAT Added Mar 29, 2017 - 3:06pm
Thomas.
How can you look at the state of mankind today, and speak of fairness? My article is about reality, and how some women are driven to make some very difficult decisions due to circumstance.
 
A man, living a comfortable life, has no moral or ethical right to tell a distressed woman she must bear the source of that distress for 18 years, unless you are willing to help her raise that child.
 
Yes. The loss of a potential life is a tragedy, whether man induced or natural cause, but as I stated to Benjamin, for the majority of people world wide, life is a tragedy.
EXPAT Added Mar 29, 2017 - 3:13pm
Steve. You are beyond reason! Your ranting about Nazi's and slavery, and murdering  existing children only reinforces, the concept that you are delusional, and incapable of rationality. I suspect Alzheimer's.
EXPAT Added Mar 29, 2017 - 3:20pm
Steve Bergeron  comments:
No one who is serious about God believes in some "mythical imaginary guy in the sky."  That's a half-understood, grade school viewpoint, at best.
The Lords Prayer; Our father who art in heaven......
 
EXPAT Added Mar 29, 2017 - 3:27pm
Jeffry.
The delusional will never seek help, because they believe everyone else is delusional. They even believe that Doctors who try to treat their delusion, are delusional about their delusion.
And these are the people who want everyone else to live by their delusional standard.
BaDeep, BaDeep, BaDeep. That's all folks!
 
Benjamin David Steele Added Mar 29, 2017 - 8:35pm
@Thomas Sutrina - You're basically stating you don't care about human life. Liberal policies that go hand in hand with pro-choice are the only proven methods that decrease unwanted pregnancies and abortions. But you support methods that either don't decrease unwanted pregnancies and abortions or that actually increase them. You are a baby killer. I'm not talking about isolated incidents of babies dying. What you support would kill large numbers of babies. You are sick person!
Benjamin David Steele Added Mar 29, 2017 - 8:37pm
@EXPAT - "I personally believe that the loss of any life, no matter what stage of development is a tragedy."
 
I get that. But I'm arguing for promoting liberal policies that have proven to decrease tragedy at all stages of development.
Billy Roper Added Mar 29, 2017 - 8:39pm
So, Ben, you're claiming that countries where infanticide are illegal don't see fewer abortions? LOL That's a lie. So, are you then saying that there were sixty million illegal abortions in the U.S. in the generation prior to Roe vs. Wade making it illegal, or that would be that many, if not more, if it was rescinded? Of course not. Otherwise, there'd be no point in any laws at all.
Benjamin David Steele Added Mar 29, 2017 - 9:06pm
@Bill Roper - I'm not claiming anything. It's what the data shows. You can argue with reality, if you want. It won't do you much good. But I understand that you prefer lies and ignorance. More power to you.
 
https://www.guttmacher.org/infographic/2016/restrictive-laws-do-not-stop-women-having-abortions
 
https://www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2012/03/abortion-increasingly-concentrated-worlds-poorest-countries
 
"As a whole, this new body of evidence reinforces the enduring and universal truths that unintended pregnancy is the primary determinant of abortion rates and that abortion's legal status has much more to do with whether it is performed by trained providers and in sanitary conditions than it has to do with how frequently it occurs. These findings should compel policymakers to increase the global investment to help women obtain and effectively use contraceptive services so they can prevent unintended pregnancy. The findings also argue for making access to safe abortion services a high priority, including encouraging the global trend toward liberalization of abortion laws to create conditions conducive to providing safe services. "
 
https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/ipsrh/2009/estimates-health-care-system-costs-unsafe-abortion-africa-and-latin
 
"Each year, an estimated 19 million unsafe abortions occur in the developing world, and around 66,500 women die from abortion-related causes.1 In developing countries, an estimated five million women are treated annually for complications from unsafe abortion;2 the cost of treating such complications burdens health care systems in these countries, where 97% of all unsafe abortions occur.1 This treatment diverts scarce health resources and, as we will demonstrate, is more costly than the alternatives of safe abortion and contraceptive services."
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html
 
"A comprehensive global study of abortion has concluded that abortion rates are similar in countries where it is legal and those where it is not, suggesting that outlawing the procedure does little to deter women seeking it.
 
"Moreover, the researchers found that abortion was safe in countries where it was legal, but dangerous in countries where it was outlawed and performed clandestinely. Globally, abortion accounts for 13 percent of women’s deaths during pregnancy and childbirth, and there are 31 abortions for every 100 live births, the study said. [...]
 
"The data also suggested that the best way to reduce abortion rates was not to make abortion illegal but to make contraception more widely available, said Sharon Camp, chief executive of the Guttmacher Institute.
 
"In Eastern Europe, where contraceptive choices have broadened since the fall of Communism, the study found that abortion rates have decreased by 50 percent, although they are still relatively high compared with those in Western Europe. “In the past we didn’t have this kind of data to draw on,” Ms. Camp said. “Contraception is often the missing element” where abortion rates are high, she said."
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8305217.stm
 
"The Guttmacher Institute's survey found abortion occurs at roughly equal rates in regions where it is legal and regions where it is highly restricted.
 
"It did note that improved access to contraception had cut the overall abortion rate over the last decade.
 
"But unsafe abortions, primarily illegal, have remained almost static.
 
"The survey of 197 countries carried out by the Guttmacher Institute - a pro-choice reproductive think tank - found there were 41.6m abortions in 2003, compared with 45.5 in 1995 - a drop which occurred despite population increases.
 
"Nineteen countries had liberalised their abortion laws over the 10 years studied, compared with tighter restrictions in just three.
But despite the general trend towards liberalisation, some 40% of the world's women live amid tight restrictions. [...]
 
"Western Europe is held up as an example of what access to contraceptive services can achieve, and the Netherlands - with just 10 abortions per 1,000 women compared to the world's 29 per 1,000 - is held up as the gold standard.
 
"Here, young people report using two forms of contraception as standard.
 
"Even the UK, which has a relatively high rate, fares well in comparison to the US, where the number of abortions is among the highest in the developed world. The institute says this rate is in part explained by inconsistencies in insurance coverage of contraceptive supplies.
 
"In much of eastern Europe, where abortion was treated as a form of birth control, abortion rates have dropped by 50% in the past de
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 29, 2017 - 9:15pm
Expat, I was saying the liberals judge things by "fairness and caring." The choices Liberals make about abortion are neither fair or caring in practice. I said nothing people other then liberals. I said nothing about independents and Conservative. Recall that hard liberals represent about 12% of the population. Twelve percent is not mankind.
Expat I and Benjamin David Steele May 29th 8:33AM described facts and not opinion for the most part. So I would like to know how 1800 Indiana, Judeo-Christian theology, the Supreme Court decision, and the description of a court case has anything to to with right or no right to tell a distressed woman anything. I will tell her that this is a country of laws and that do not expect the bureaucrats to protect you by enforcing the law. The court case presented clearly shows that they ignore the law they are paid to inforce.
Benjamin, I can not see how you come to that conclusion. I did choose to write about the death of a woman in abortion clinics that do not meat basic medical standards or have the means of dealing with complication. I wrote about babies that are breathing being killed minutes after birth, Obviously the states are not enforcing the law and letting babies be killed after they are viable. So how to come to the conclusion that means I do not care about life.
I never said anything about the position I have taken on abortion. The only think you can conclude is that I do not like 22 wks as the time a fetus becomes a human. What method do I support? I do support following the law. That does not mean that I do not want the law to change.
Benjamin David Steele Added Mar 29, 2017 - 9:36pm
@Thomas Sutrina - I know the kind of bullshit that is seen on right-wing media. Most of it is straight lies. There was some fake news where a video was altered awhile back that got conservatives all outraged. That is how fake news works. The point is either you are for saving lives or you are against. I'm personally for saving lives. But each to their own. Spreading bullshit doesn't save lives.
Billy Roper Added Mar 29, 2017 - 9:55pm
I do agree with the stated worldview of Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, who intended that it be used to eugenically reduce the nonWhite population. However, it should be illegal for Whites unless the child is known to have a congenital birth defect.
 
Benjamin, pro tip: when you copy and paste, you have to double copy a hyperlink to make it clickable. Also, you're not very well educated, are you? LOL In addition to being a liberal, I mean. But then, I repeat myself.
EXPAT Added Mar 30, 2017 - 12:24am
Thanks ALL. I think we have gone as far as we can here!
Just one parting comment.
Steve Bergeron wrote:
Jeffrey, do you have proof there is no God?  
 
I say the world we live in is proof enough that GOD is dead! It is up to us to make it the best we can for all !
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 30, 2017 - 12:24am
 You've been sold a bill of goods (lies) by atheists whose goal is to destroy any belief in God so they can control you.  The state becomes their God.  Big government.  We call those folks children of the Enlightenment, which gave rise to Marxism, Communism, Socialism and all the other similar ills along those lines.
 
You are indeed out of your mind.
 
1) No one sold me shit. I examined everything and came to my own conclusion. I was able to do that because I wasn't inculcated with religious nonsense at an early age.
 
2) If you didn't just arrive here in your own little world of deluded mythology hit and run with your emotional blather you'd know that the very last thing I'd ever do is worship the state. 

3) The Enlightenment included a range of ideas centered on reason as the primary source of authority and legitimacy, and came to advance ideals like liberty, progress, tolerance, fraternity, constitutional government, and separation of church and state. Ya know, the stuff the founders of DUHmerica put in the Constitution. Dolt.
 
Oh, I don't need to prove any fucking thing to the likes of you or any other deluded simpering fool. What makes us different is I don't demand you prove anything to me.
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 30, 2017 - 7:31am
Benjamin, I am for saving lives and I would find out what the effect of choosing 12wks as most of the socialist countries that we are following in Europe.  If that seems to give sufficient balance of compassion for the fact that men and women are "human" and make poor choices.  Judeo-Christian is based on a theology of salvation.  Which means God if you believe in a God realizes humans make bad choices. And the fact that that fetus is a "human."  
 
Benjamin abortion on demand is creating a holocaust that is greater then any other.  It is saying that until the "government" provides a piece of paper you do not exist.  So with that logic if they destroy a piece of paper of your existence then you also do not exist.  Now why should anyone give "government" that power since they also make bad choices and it seem more then a single human or at least effects more humans that the choice of an individual.
EXPAT Added Mar 30, 2017 - 10:21am
If you think that the photo at the start of my article is a human being, how would you care for it? By forcing someone else to care for it? It cannot survive on it's own! Shouldn't a human being be able to survive on it's own? That is called viability!
 
You like to toss around terms like holocaust and human and Judeo-Christian, without associating them with reality.
A belief that is not supported by reality is a FANTASEY.
 
Please leave reality decisions up to professionals who UNDERSTAND Humanity.  Medical Professionals, and True Religious scholars, and Women who must bear the burden of reproduction.
 
The only people who can make an informed decision on bringing a fertilized egg to term, are the woman and her belief and her doctor. In the case of a woman who does not have the capacity to make the decision, the only choice for a none viable fetus is termination.
Benjamin David Steele Added Mar 30, 2017 - 10:26am
@Thomas Sutrina - I understand your ignorant ideological dogmatism. You don't need to explain it further. Fake news means more to you than facts. You care more about your beliefs than the lives of actual humans, lost in abstractions and your heart closed to compassion.
 
You allege a Holocaust against the very people promoting policies that would decrease suffering, harm, and death. Meanwhile, you promote policies that would increase, suffering, harm and death. Talk about projection. Why do you hate humans so much that you'd rather they die than to admit you are wrong and change your mind?
 
The evidence is clear. Anti-choice is anti-life. You can't even justify your anti-human agenda by your own rationalizations. When your anti-choice, anti-life, and anti-human agenda is promoted through lies, deceit, and disinformation, maybe you aren't doing God's work. That is something to consider, assuming you are actually a Christian.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_Parenthood_2015_undercover_videos_controversy
 
"All of the videos were found to be altered, according to analysis by Fusion GPS and its co-founder Glenn R. Simpson, a former investigative reporter for The Wall Street Journal. [...]
 
"Officials in 12 states initiated investigations into claims made by the videos, but none found Planned Parenthood clinics to have sold tissue for profit as alleged by CMP and other anti-abortion groups. An investigation by the United States House of Representatives Oversight and Government Reform Committee found no evidence of wrongdoing by Planned Parenthood. A select committee, the United States House Committee on Energy and Commerce Select Investigative Panel on Planned Parenthood, was formed to further investigate Planned Parenthood. The Republican-controlled Select Investigative Panel released its final report on December 30, 2016, recommending that Planned Parenthood be de-funded. The report was heavily criticized as partisan and inaccurate by Democratic members of the committee, Planned Parenthood, and some news media.
 
"On January 25, 2016, a Texas grand jury indicted CMP founder David Daleiden and member Sandra Merritt while finding no wrongdoing by Planned Parenthood. The charges against Daleiden and Merritt in Texas were dismissed six months later. On March 28, 2017, however, Daleiden and Merritt were charged with 15 felonies in the State of California - one for each of the people whom they had filmed without consent, and one for criminal conspiracy to invade privacy. [...]
 
"On November 27, 2015, a gunman shot and killed two civilians and a police officer during a five-hour gun battle at the Colorado Springs clinic.[104][105][106] The 57-year-old gunman[107] surrendered to police and was taken into custody. During his arrest, he gave a rambling interview[108] in which, at one point, he said "no more baby parts,"[109] an apparent reference to protests against the clinic,[110][111] echoing language used in the news media about the clinic.[112][113][114] However, authorities could not clearly identify a specific motivation.[108]
 
"U.S. Attorney General Loretta Lynch called the shooting a "crime against women receiving health care services".[115] Colorado Springs Mayor John Suthers said that the shooting and standoff "certainly appears" to be an act of domestic terrorism.[116]
 
"Vicki Saporta, president of the National Abortion Federation drew particular attention to the videos, two of which were filmed at a clinic in Denver, 75 miles north of Colorado Springs; these videos resulted in a number of threats against one doctor featured in the videos, who had to move out of her home and hire 24-hour security as a result according to Saporta."
 
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-planned-parenthood-charges-activists-20170328-story.html
 
"Two antiabortion activists whose controversial undercover videos accused Planned Parenthood doctors of selling fetal tissue were charged Tuesday with 15 felonies by California prosecutors. [...]
 
"The edited videos were published online, prompting outrage among abortion foes and triggering a wave of threats to abortion providers and those who were secretly recorded."
 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/06/video-boosted-by-carly-fiorina-looks-like-miscarriage-not-abortion-experts
 
"Footage from an anti-Planned Parenthood sting video highlighted by Republican candidate Carly Fiorina is almost definitely a miscarriage, not an abortion, according to several medical experts.
 
"The video received renewed attention after Fiorina urged others to watch it during the second Republican primary debate in September.
 
"“As regards Planned Parenthood, anyone who has watched this videotape, I dare
Benjamin David Steele Added Mar 30, 2017 - 10:29am
Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama to watch these tapes. Watch a fully formed fetus on the table, its heart beating, its legs kicking, while someone says ‘We have to keep it alive to harvest its brain’,” Fiorina told a rapt audience.
 
"No video showing an event as described has yet been demonstrated to exist by Fiorina’s campaign or made public by anti-abortion activists. But Fiorina has continued to defend her characterization."
 
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/debunked-planned-parenthood-videos-led-attack-activists-article-1.2448839
 
"A series of videos attempting to discredit Planned Parenthood ignited a wave of threats, arson and protests against the medical clinics and culminated in a deadly shooting in Colorado, pro-choice activists believe."
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/abortion-bills-planned-parenthood-video_us_55fc21d1e4b08820d9184787
 
"In the second GOP presidential debate Wednesday night, candidate Carly Fiorina passionately described a graphic scene from an undercover video of Planned Parenthood in which a fetus that survived an abortion waits, its “heart beating” and “legs kicking,” for a technician to harvest its brain. On Friday, House Republicans passed a pair of bills inspired by the same videos: One measure would defund Planned Parenthood and another would protect “abortion survivors.”
 
"The problem is, the videos are so heavily edited that they bear little resemblance to reality, and the scene Fiorina described doesn’t exist.
 
"She was most likely referring to the video in which Holly O’Donnell, a former procurement technician for a biomedical company, talks about having seen a fully formed aborted fetus, with its heart still beating, in a pathology lab. The video doesn’t show any footage from the scene, but instead shows a graphic image of someone holding a small fetus in their hands. That image is not an aborted fetus, as the video suggests. Rather, it was taken from the blog of a woman named Alexis Fretz, who miscarried at 19 weeks and posted images of her still-born baby online.
 
"There is another image in the videos of a fetus that’s moving, similar to the one Fiorina described. But as the Los Angeles Times points out, this image wasn’t captured by the Center for Medical Progress during its undercover sting; it’s credited to two other anti-abortion groups. There’s no evidence to suggest that image is from an abortion or related to Planned Parenthood, and no one in the video is saying they want to keep the fetus alive to harvest its brain.
 
"These outside images are not the only misleading moments in the videos, which were produced by the anti-abortion group Center for Medical Progress. Separate conversations are cut and spliced together to appear as if they are one line of discussion. Subtitles in the videos do not match the words being said. Entire chunks of time are missing from the footage — even from the supposedly full, “unedited” videos that the Center released along with the more heavily edited ones.
 
"A forensic analysis of the videos found they are so egregiously manipulated that they would never be accepted as evidence in a court of law.
 
"Congress requested the real, unaltered videos of Planned Parenthood from the Center for Medical Progress earlier this week, but the Center has not yet released them to anyone. Meanwhile, multiple state investigations and a federal investigation into the accusations against Planned Parenthood have failed to produce any evidence to support the claims in the videos.
 
"But Republicans lawmakers continue to legislate based on the videos [...]
 
"The videos, even in their heavily edited form, do not show Planned Parenthood harvesting and selling body parts. What they do show is Planned Parenthood doctors having frank, technical conversations about abortion procedures with actors that are posing as fetal tissue procurement technicians. The doctors discuss the modest reimbursements Planned Parenthood is legally allowed to receive to cover the costs of donating fetal tissue for medical research.
 
"One doctor makes an inappropriate joke about wanting to buy a Lamborghini with the reimbursements, which amount to a maximum $60 per specimen donated. Considering that only two Planned Parenthood clinics in the country actually donate fetal tissue, and the $60 fee has to cover the costs of preserving and transporting each specimen, it’s absurd to think the doctor was serious about buying a luxury sports car with that money."
 
http://www.christianpost.com/news/baby-in-undercover-anti-abortion-video-was-stillborn-not-aborted-producer-says-143582/
 
"The Center for Medical Progress clarified that in its most recent video th
Benjamin David Steele Added Mar 30, 2017 - 10:30am
the baby depicted is from a stillborn birth, not an abortion, but was used to show viewers what the second trimester babies from whom Planned Parenthood is harvesting organs looks like.
 
"In a second identical uploaded video on Thursday to the CMP YouTube page the organization noted that the image is of Walter Fretz, who was born prematurely at 19 weeks. Much of the video features Holly O'Donnell, a former procurement technician, testifying about late term abortion procedures. A previous uploaded video made no mention of the origin of the infant or its circumstances, causing some to allege the pro-life organization was misleading viewers.
 
"CMP linked to the Daily Mail story that offers the particulars of Fretz's delivery by his mother Alexis Fretz, 30, who held the baby in her arms while surrounded by her family.
 
"In a screen grab captured by Think Progress, a liberal political news blog, they shared a message purportedly from Walter's mother, who says she did not agree with CMP's use of Walter's image."
 
https://www.plannedparenthoodaction.org/blog/anti-abortion-group-admits-falsifying-latest-video
 
"Several states have launched investigations or inquiries into Planned Parenthood’s practices as a result of the videos — and not one investigation has shown any wrongdoing. Today, Pennsylvania became the fifth state in two weeks to conclude an investigation and announce that there is no evidence that Planned Parenthood has engaged in wrongdoing.
 
"Planned Parenthood affiliates in two states help women who wish to donate fetal tissue for lifesaving medical research. Research using fetal tissue has led to numerous medical breakthroughs throughout history, including the polio vaccine."
 
http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/unspinning-the-planned-parenthood-video/
 
"Several Republican presidential candidates have claimed that Planned Parenthood is “profiting” from abortions. But the full, unedited video they cite as evidence shows a Planned Parenthood executive repeatedly saying its clinics want to cover their costs, not make money, when donating fetal tissue from abortions for scientific research.
 
"Four experts in the field of human tissue procurement told us the price range discussed in the video — $30 to $100 per patient — represents a reasonable fee. “There’s no way there’s a profit at that price,” said Sherilyn J. Sawyer, the director of Harvard University and Brigham and Women’s Hospital’s “biorepository.”
 
"Republicans made their claims following the release of a secretly recorded video showing Deborah Nucatola, the senior director of medical services at Planned Parenthood, discussing the procurement of fetal tissues when conducting abortions. The edited video, released July 14 by an anti-abortion group called the Center for Medical Progress, leaves the impression that Nucatola is talking about Planned Parenthood affiliates making money from fetal tissue. But the edited video ignores other things Nucatola said that contradict that idea."
 
https://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/04/28/live-actions-latest-abortion-clinic-undercover/193812
 
"The woman goes on to ask what would happen if the aborted fetus were "twitching" or "breathing," and the clinician responds: "It will automatically stop. It won't be able to breathe anymore. Not in the, not with the solution." The clinician's treatment of the hypothetical notwithstanding, Live Action's video depicts a separate exchange with a counselor at the same clinic who tells the woman outright that the doctor "cannot do a termination once it's outside of the body, OK? He has to resuscitate it; he has to send it to the hospital. That's the law." In portions of the conversation included in the transcript but not the video, the counselor also tells the woman that the situation she is describing does not occur, but that if it did, "once that pregnancy comes out alive [the doctor] will do everything he can to save it."
 
"While Live Action claims that clinic workers seek to "separate [the woman] from the humanity of her child" in order to "ensure the mother has an expensive abortion," the full transcript reveals that the counselor urged the woman to be sure that she is comfortable having the abortion and told her to talk it over with a friend before making a final decision.
 
"So despite the inflammatory claims in Live Action's press release, what the video depicts is two employees at the same clinic reacting to a situation they both say doesn't actually happen, and one of them accurately describing what would have to happen according to the law. What the video does not depict is any evidence whatsoever that the doctor at the clinic stands in violation of the New York murder statute or the federal Born Al
EXPAT Added Mar 30, 2017 - 10:56am
Something to think about!
 
Woman, 29, Still in 10-Year Coma, Is Pregnant by a Rapist
http://www.nytimes.com/1996/01/25/nyregion/woman-29-still-in-10-year-coma-is-pregnant-by-a-rapist.html
 
She was an outstanding student, graduating near the top of her class at a respected Roman Catholic high school in the area and heading to an Ivy League university for a future in the sciences, or perhaps medicine.
But a sudden swerve off a road thrust her car into a tree and her into a coma that never lifted over the next decade. Fed by a tube, swaddled in a diaper, she aged from 19 to 29 with little change in her condition.
Then in late December, the staff attending her at a nursing home in Brighton, a suburb on this city's southeastern edge, noticed a puzzling difference: her belly was growing bigger.
The police said that doctors first checked for a digestive blockage, then did three separate tests before relaying their discovery to criminal authorities and the patient's stunned family on New Year's Eve. The woman was pregnant, the victim of a rape.
This extraordinary case, details of which have emerged gradually over recent weeks, has drawn scrutiny from state health and criminal justice officials for its vivid demonstration of the vulnerability of nursing-home patients to abuse.
But it is attracting the attention of physicians and ethicists for an additional reason: the young woman's parents, acting as her guardians, have chosen to continue her pregnancy. A full-term pregnancy would result in a birth in May.
John Parrinello, a lawyer in Rochester who is serving as the family's spokesman, said: "It was a very difficult decision, because nobody could predict the future, her capacity to survive a pregnancy, her capacity to deliver a child. There are not many cases similar to this."
Mr. Parrinello said it had not been determined who would raise the child.
Several prominent biomedical ethicists said that while they can cite cases of pregnant women who fell into comas or suffered brain death, they cannot recall any other case of a woman's becoming pregnant while already in one of those conditions.
They said this case raises troubling ethical concerns. "There's some question here about using her as a vessel," said Ellen Moskowitz, a health care lawyer and bioethicist at the Hastings Center in Briarcliff Manor. "Does that recognize her humanity? Is this something that offends the natural order?"
In addition, Ms. Moskowitz said, "You could wonder about the effects of a child born of this arrangement. What kind of explanation is due this child, and what are the potential harms that could flow from that?"
Law enforcement sources said the young woman's family was motivated by the belief that she would not have wanted an abortion and by the desire to see a part of her live on.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 30, 2017 - 12:02pm
Sick fucking shit! Fucking nasty fuckers all around from the rapist on down. The sick shit religion produces in people is really disgusting. God? No fucking way. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 30, 2017 - 12:23pm
We have two choices as a society:
 
1.  All human life is sacred.  Human life begins at conception.
 
2.  Or, no human life is sacred, and anyone can be murdered  in any way, at any time, for any reason.  
 
Another false choice only a fucking thumper could concoct. 
 
I piss on your mythical nonsense. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 30, 2017 - 12:28pm
Benjamin, you could have said a lot of things but what you said defines you as a drown.  We are wasting our time having a discussion with someone that is a drown.  So I will just skip your comments.
EXPAT Added Mar 30, 2017 - 12:36pm
Steve Bergeron. That was the first intelligent comment you have posted on this string. I dis agree with you, but at least it makes sense, from a religious point of view.
 
Don't forget that the church excommunicated Galileo for heresy because he proved that the earth moved around the sun and was round.
 
But if your belief makes life easier for you, hang on to it! Just don't demand that others believe the earth is flat!
EXPAT Added Mar 30, 2017 - 12:44pm
P.S. Life is cognition. I think therefore I am. Cogito Ergo Sum.
Descartes was 'poisoned by Catholic priest'



French philosopher was killed by arsenic-laced holy communion wafer after airing 'heretic' views, says academic
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/14/rene-descartes-poisoned-catholic-priest


Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 30, 2017 - 1:16pm
Same same I think I'm a christian, therefore I am a christian."  I can believe any silly shit I choose. LOL
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 30, 2017 - 1:25pm
Jeffry, you leave me with no choice
 
I don't leave you with anything you silly prat! Own your own silly shit. You hate anyone who belittles your mythological nonsense and when bullying them doesn't get you your way you try to sell your silly shit as fact based, logical and unemotional. You are one sick fuck Bergeron. 
 
 It is what it is, I guess.
 
 
Guess? Guess again. Guessing is par for the course for your ilk. GUH!
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 30, 2017 - 1:25pm
When does life begin. Well we can determine the difference between a rock and a human.  A Tree and a human and we know that an oak seed is an oak tree and a maple a maple tree.  We know that a flower and pollen of an oak tree is different and unique from the same thing for another tree like a maple.  Our eyes and observations have proven it and no one is surprised.
We know that a reptile or bird are not humans and the egg of a reptile or a bird is the particular reptile of bird.  So we know that an adult of a living thing and the smallest and inert biological component is related and will become that adult biological item.
When we look a mammals we come to the same results.  We can separate the smallest components of biology and tell what the adult type of animal it will be, the sperm or the egg.  And even before the fancy equipment just by knowing where it came from we can answer that question.  
We also know that when pollen and a flower of the same tree are combined we get a seed and then a tree and if the tree has male or female types it is determined from that combination.  The combination determines the sex.  It is true for all animals also.
 
So when does life begin is obvious when we can determine what the adult will be and that happens when the growth starts and sex is determined by the combination and growth starts.  We only have to look at nature.  The above observation of man through out history of man.  Science has given more tools but the ability to discern and categorize with more precision. 
EXPAT Added Mar 30, 2017 - 1:33pm
Steve. You just can't resist being a DUCK. I guess that is where the term QUACK comes from!
After 350 Years, Vatican Says Galileo Was Right: It Moves
ROME, Oct. 30— More than 350 years after the Roman Catholic Church condemned Galileo, Pope John Paul II is poised to rectify one of the Church's most infamous wrongs -- the persecution of the Italian astronomer and physicist for proving the Earth moves around the Sun.
With a formal statement at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on Saturday, Vatican officials said the Pope will formally close a 13-year investigation into the Church's condemnation of Galileo in 1633. The condemnation, which forced the astronomer and physicist to recant his discoveries, led to Galileo's house arrest for eight years before his death in 1642 at the age of 77.
The dispute between the Church and Galileo has long stood as one of history's great emblems of conflict between reason and dogma, science and faith. The Vatican's formal acknowledgement of an error, moreover, is a rarity in an institution built over centuries on the belief that the Church is the final arbiter in matters of faith.
At the time of his condemnation, Galileo had won fame and the patronage of leading Italian powers like the Medicis and Barberinis for discoveries he had made with the astronomical telescope he had built. But when his observations led him to proof of the Copernican theory of the solar system, in which the sun and not the earth is the center, and which the Church regarded as heresy, Galileo was summoned to Rome by the Inquisition. Forced to Recant
By the end of his trial, Galileo was forced to recant his own scientific findings as "abjured, cursed and detested," a renunciation that caused him great personal anguish but which saved him from being burned at the stake.
Since then, the Church has taken various steps to reverse its opposition to Galileo's conclusions. In 1757, Galileo's "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems" was removed from the Index, a former list of publications banned by the Church. When the latest investigation, conducted by a panel of scientists, theologians and historians, made a preliminary report in 1984, it said that Galileo had been wrongfully condemned. More recently, Pope John Paul II himself has said that the scientist was "imprudently opposed."
"We today know that Galileo was right in adopting the Copernican astronomical theory," Paul Cardinal Poupard, the head of the current investigation, said in an interview published this week.
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/31/world/after-350-years-vatican-says-galileo-was-right-it-moves.html
EXPAT Added Mar 30, 2017 - 4:23pm
Thomas. I am glad you are so biologically observant. But do you understand that a human has dominion over the plants and animals? I use the biblical term so you can understand.
 
So what makes humans superior to animals? HIS BRAIN!
Without cognition it is just a mass of cells.
 
Shane Dean Added Mar 30, 2017 - 5:22pm
Thomas, you need to quit harping on when "life" begins and take on honest look at when "viable life" begins
 
Shane Dean Added Mar 30, 2017 - 5:28pm
And also, get off your holier than thou high horse.  You like to invoke "Christian" principles a lot, but the judgemental tone you take with people makes me feel you are one of those who calls themself a Christian but doesn't really pay attention to the code of conduct Jesus laid down for all those who believe in him.  Honestly, people like you are why I kept my children from churches and passed on the principles Christ laid out myself.  I have long held the belief that some of the meanest, hard-hearted people in the world sit in the pews on Sunday with smiles plastered on their faces as they look down on the rest of the world.  Which is opposite of what Christ exhorts us all to do.
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 30, 2017 - 6:03pm
Shane D. and EXPAT, the comments on this subject suggested that they did not know that when life begins is in question. That has been answered by theology and science long ago and is not in question. It is in question by those with political agendas. Are you Shane one of those?
Jodeo-Christian follows salvation theology. Pre Babylon exile for Jews and Muslims follow judgmental theology. If I apply judgemental theology to abortion it is totally not allowed and if a woman gets an abortion she is committing murder since the question when life begins was understood when Islam started. At conception. Now when conception started may not have been as percise but with the capacity to be percise only eliminates wiggle room is judgmental theology is black and white.
So why the Democrats are promoting Islam religion must be based on the assumption that they can change them or they and remove islam when the need to. That has not been sucessful when it becomes establish without expelling or killing the Muslims. At least that is the lessons of history.
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 30, 2017 - 6:05pm
Steve B. the supreme court has defined viable and I believe my statement is a reasonable paraphrase.
EXPAT Added Mar 30, 2017 - 7:22pm
Steve Bergeron. You are hopelessly delusional. You even argue with the POPE on Church matters. The NYT article gives every detail of what the church did to Galileo, and still you are in denial.
In the future, I simply will ignore your  uneducated ranting.
EXPAT Added Mar 30, 2017 - 7:42pm
Thomas. Your constant twisting of non specific verbiage forces me to be crude.
If you believe aborted fetuses are viable, then go to an abortion clinic and take a dozen home in an egg carton. Good luck.
 
Was that a reasonable paraphrase?
 
No one has commented on the NYT article of a comatose pregnant woman. I guess real life is too hard to handle. All you have are generalities.
Steve Bergeron Added Mar 30, 2017 - 8:27pm
EXPAT, I wouldn't trust the NYT to tell me that the sun rises in the east.  They are nothing but a propaganda arm of the left.  They are more than willing to tell any lie, twist any truth, or ignore any truth in order to further the cause of the left.
 
That said, you have my full permission to ignore anything I write.  Please do.  
Benjamin David Steele Added Mar 30, 2017 - 9:26pm
@Thomas Sutrina - I proved everything you believe is wrong and that your life is a moral failure. Your response is to ignore my comments, as apparently you ignore the teachings of Jesus. If you genuinely believe in God, do you think God will ignore your hypocrisy?
EXPAT Added Mar 30, 2017 - 11:19pm
Steve Bergeron. I will do better than that! I am deleting all your bullshit comments as not addressing the subject! Thanks for your permission!
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 31, 2017 - 4:11am
Better yet EXPAT leave them up so everyone can see how big a knob he is. LOL. 
EXPAT Added Mar 31, 2017 - 4:18am
Too late Jeffry! He's gone like street food diarrhea to Imodium.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 31, 2017 - 4:40am
Oh well, had I not been enjoying a "nap" with herself I'd have suggested it sooner. 
EXPAT Added Mar 31, 2017 - 5:42am
"NAP" Does that stand for Nibble A Pussy?
I just got tired of him repeating the same delusional Crap when presented with documentation contrary to his misinformation. I even tried complementing his only coherent explanation of his religious dogma.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 31, 2017 - 5:59am
It appears my predelections and your euphemisms are in sync. 
EXPAT Added Mar 31, 2017 - 6:28am
I never tried it in the sync. Does the faucet get in the way? Or does running water add to her pleasure?
EXPAT Added Mar 31, 2017 - 6:44am
Back to the subject.
80% of pregnancy are planned and cared for through birth.
10% are IVF from a fertility Clinic and also cared for and wanted.
8% Miscarry or end from accident.
2% are due to unwanted, unintended circumstance, and will be terminated in any way available.
Unwanted children face a life of depravity that no one wants to deal with.
You can't just pass a law forcing a Crack Addict who doesn't even know who the father was or when it happened to comply. These are unpleasant reality consequences that must be dealt with in any way that works. Either adoption or abortion, but turning a newborn over to a drug addicted woman who cannot take care of herself is idiocy!
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 31, 2017 - 8:07am
EXPAT, your an idiot, "If you believe aborted fetuses are viable,"
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 31, 2017 - 10:46am
Jesusfuckingchristonagoddamnfuckingcrutch the fuckheads are melting down all over this thread. 
EXPAT Added Mar 31, 2017 - 7:01pm
Thomas has finally come to his senses,  albeit in a negative role reversal way. My article and all my comments were designed to make people understand that a mother is a person, and a zygote and fetus are potential people, not people with rights!
Thank you Thomas for admitting and finally understanding, that abortion is not killing, it is preventing!
It is too bad I had to revert to such a crude tactic to make you understand.
Thomas. Your constant twisting of non specific verbiage forces me to be crude.
If you believe aborted fetuses are viable, then go to an abortion clinic and take a dozen home in an egg carton. Good luck.