The Statute Selection Smorgasbord of the Sovereign Citizens

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center: “Steven T. “Duke” Boehle, of Austin, was arrested on April 12 after federal agents and local police searched a residence in that city where three handguns and 1,100 rounds of ammunition were seized. A second search carried out at a rental storage unit leased by the suspect turned up 10 rifles, according to various media reports. When Boehle was arrested the day before the planned attack, FBI agents found “an expletive-laced note taped to [his] front door that read, ‘The great miracle will take place at 8:30 a.m. on Holy Thursday,’” the newspaper reported. Further information, “Because of a 1993 conviction for domestic violence in New Haven, Connecticut, he can’t legally possess firearms. Boehle apparently believed those federal firearms laws didn’t apply to him — a cornerstone for sovereign citizens who live in their own make-believe, antigovernment worlds where licensing, laws and regulations are generally ignored.”

 

Sources indicate that sovereign citizens are selective of the laws they follow, and according to their theory, the county sheriff has the most power because the county sheriff is the most important legal authority anywhere. The idea that the county sheriff is the ultimate authority comes from the legal idea of “Posse Comitatus” Latin for “force of the county.” The sovereign citizens like to invent new meanings for legal concepts and generally make or interpret laws that agree with their personal feelings about what laws should be followed. Sovereign citizens are under the impression that they are not responsible for taxes, as taxes are illegitimate. The sovereign citizens do not recognize federal law and generally spout white Christian conspiracy-minded beliefs about certain individuals taking over the government and taxes being illegal or unconstitutional.

 

I could go into the ideology and the sovereign citizens, but why bother. Suffice to say that they believe that the federal government is illegitimate, and that only local governments have, or should have the power. There is other minutia to this, but it is an explanation that is not worth reading.

 

The FBI has classified some of the sovereign citizens as “domestic terrorists” and even more dangerous than Islamic extremists. Using very sloppy interpretations of case law, ignoring the context of the law and ignoring cases that disprove their theories, the sovereign citizens offer “advice” to other citizens who similarly don’t want to pay taxes and are unhappy with the government. The sovereign citizens become, well, whatever they think they are, by giving up their driver’s license, Social Security number, car registration, birth certificate, anything that identifies them with the government. After they have given up all of the things that would identify them as citizens, the sovereign citizens file, or attempt to file a document that renounces their citizenship, claiming to be only a citizen of the state where they live to any naïve county clerk they can convince to take it.

 

The “document” submitted to renounce citizenship has no standing in any court in the land, and not being responsible for various laws because they are “sovereign citizens” has not held up in any court. The court records speak for themselves, but for those who wish to look them up, Johnson v. Commissioner failed, Wikoff v. Commissioner failed, United States v. Hart failed, Young v. Internal Revenue Serv. failed, and Stoecklin v. Commissioner failed. All the aforementioned cases failed for the courts to recognize their immunity from taxes while they claimed to be a “sovereign citizen.”

 

First of all, sitting in your safe home in America makes it easy to say you are not a citizen of the federal government. Undeniably, however, the federal government is why you can sit in your safe home in America. The federal government is the one with the troops, bombers, aircraft carriers and missiles that has held off all challengers, although there have been some successful sneak attacks. If the sovereign citizens wish to emigrate to, say, China, or Russia, or North Korea, or even Canada or Mexico, they are fee to do so, where they can quite conspicuously renounce their citizenship. The sovereign citizens want to stay here, safe in America, and declare their independence from a government that has protected them and their property. I will be the first to admit that they might not have been protected as well as they could been, but they also (if not convicted of a crime that denied the right) had the right to keep and bear arms with which to protect themselves and their property. 

 

The sovereign citizens want to stay here in America and have it their way. There are some sovereign citizens in Australia as well, the media says. The United States does not declare people to be “non-citizens” who meet the requirements to qualify as citizens, and yet some people are seeking to de-citizen  or uncitizen themselves. Even the most horrific of criminals are still citizens. Citizenship can be a matter of choice, but that scenario is mostly when a citizen decides to emigrate to another country and become a citizen of that country. The sovereign citizens wish to just stay here and renounce citizenship, be relieved of taxes and obey only the laws they choose to obey, a sort of smorgasbord of laws chosen instead of the obligations imposed by the laws of the land. One of the best cases against the sovereign citizens is the “let’s all do that” example, where everyone just picks and chooses the laws to follow and the taxes they pay, and in general they do as they please. This is not a recipe for any kind of successful government.  

 

As a democracy, the U.S. has changed a lot in its lifetime. Consider that the Constitution has been amended twenty-seven times. If enough of us agree, we can vote and change things, or elect people who will change things. The sovereign citizens want to change things, and the government has (theoretically) no objection to that, but deliberately not paying taxes claiming that you are exempt and filing claims in court as to why the taxing authorities are in error is not making a passing grade for the sovereign citizens. The sovereign citizens would be better off consulting tax lawyers and finding loopholes rather than inventing supposedly legal documents that will not hold up in court. The path they have been taking has not been working, and losing in court numerous times would prompt most sane people to seek another path. Inventing "legal documents" that are nothing more than gibberish, swearing in "deputies" of your own "government" is no way to change a government. Sovereign citizens have the right to vote, the right to free speech. They need to apply the tools given to them by the government, or as some have said, love it or leave it. See how things go declaring yourself independent in Russia, China, Mexico or Canada. 

Comments

George N Romey Added May 2, 2017 - 2:53pm
Jeff these nutjobs have been around since before Waco.  Take away all the goodies they get from a federal government and they would bawl like babies.  I wonder how many of them would like to go back to America 1850.  Sure there was far less government but life was extremely hard.  Not even modern sanitization. 
 
Let them spend time in some of the most poorest parts of the world and they would quickly understand what absent government is all about.
Dino Manalis Added May 2, 2017 - 4:20pm
they're dreaming, they have to follow rules and laws like everyone else, what they're doing is illegal in my opinion!
Jeff Jackson Added May 2, 2017 - 4:23pm
George you hit the nail on the head-they need to go to these countries where gangs and corruption rule, and the government won't let you own a gun! Let's see how they like it.
Jeff Jackson Added May 2, 2017 - 4:27pm
You got it Dino. They clutter up things with paperwork about as valuable as a roll of Charmin. The "legal papers" would be better if drawn by a first-year law student, but that would cost money.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 2, 2017 - 4:35pm
This article is an extreme position on the other side of the coin. One wonders why the author is so concerned about this topic?
 
The author, being a professed statist, takes objection to SC's. Fine. Its his right. One further wonders how the existence of SC's affects the author negatively?
 
Being born in DUHmerica is a huge burden which the author clearly believes is precisely the opposite. One has to wonder how he could be so inculcated to believe such nonsense. 
 
I'm no SC by a long shot and I did remove myself from the jurisdiction of those I hate with such burning passion. I did so because that government reneged on its part of the bargain. Basic contract law provides that when any party violates any part of the contract that contract becomes void. I knew those federal scumbags would never ever leave me alone if I stayed so I made the only smart decision and left. Lived longer and better for it too. 
 
Freedom from they tyranny that those federal monsters in DUHmerica impose at every turn should be the interest of every DUHmerican. Its not though. Many like the author clearly prefer tyranny and as this article demonstrates applaud it. 
 
Itsactually a medical condition called Authoritarian Followers Syndrome. An incurable disease affecting fully 26% of the public worldwide. 
 
Incurable yet so detrimental to freedom loving people everywhere.
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 2, 2017 - 4:43pm
they need to go to these countries where gangs and corruption rule
 
You're describing DUHmerica. The gangs are the police and the corruption is between them the prosecutors, judges, congresscritters and the rich scum that bought and paid all of them. To blinded by exceptionalism to see it. 
Jeff Jackson Added May 2, 2017 - 4:48pm
"Sovereign citizens have the right to vote, the right to free speech. They need to apply the tools given to them by the government, or as some have said, love it or leave it. See how things go declaring yourself independent in Russia, China, Mexico or Canada." I'm not defending America as much as America compared to what? They have the right to change America, or, choose, as yourself, to leave. I would rather be here than a lot of places, but if you're happy somewhere else, more power to you. I applaud tyranny by listing the cases that they brought before the courts? Since when did tyrants allow people to question the law? And the U.S. has allowed it multiple times from the same people. They have many rights here others don't, they just don't have the right to break the law. I do not see that as tyranny, but your international insight is deeper than mine. 
George N Romey Added May 2, 2017 - 4:59pm
Jeff in my travels and my impression of some countries, Thailand included (visited three times in my life) is more of a live and let live.  Jeffry would know more but I believe that the karma aspect of Buddhism in Thailand culture and belief play a role.  Here in the US its screw your fellow man to no end and as long as it produces profits who cares.  Everyone is a chump to be take advantage of.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 2, 2017 - 5:00pm
Since when did tyrants allow people to question the law?
 
 
This Is Why Government Is Dangerous: Man Who Dared To Point Out Red Light Camera System Flaw Is Fined And Silenced
 
You're so very very wrong about DUHmerica Jeff. Its painful to se how much you don't want to see it. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 2, 2017 - 5:11pm
Here in the US its screw your fellow man to no end and as long as it produces profits who cares. 
 
Actually from what I have seen Peter Corey would love it here. 
 
I'm not a businessman so I'm not affected that way but I'm a very informed consumer and often use Thai intermediaries to get the Thai price for goods.
Jenifer Frost Added May 2, 2017 - 5:22pm
I have a friend who felt America was becoming a Police State (& this was pre-9/11). So he immigrated to Russia after their democratic revolution.... 
 
Guess what? HE LOVES IT THERE! So much for America being the end all, be all of existence. 
 
As for Sovereign Citizens, I like to think of myself as one who just volunteerly chooses to follow all the laws, local, state and federal (not because I have to, but I want to *wink*). The others need to formulate a revolution or something constructive. 
Jeff Jackson Added May 2, 2017 - 8:36pm
Yes, Jenifer, something constructive like talking to a real lawyer who might find some loophole in the law that would cause the sovereign citizens to avoid paying taxes. The funny thing here is that if your property gets repossessed in Ohio (like for not paying taxes) it is the county sheriff who does the repossession, making the county sheriff, once so revered by the sovereign citizens “Posse Comitatus” Latin for “force of the county" the very person who takes the land from you. Gosh, those sovereign citizens are ironic, and , uh, idiotic.
I have stated, in numerous papers, what my Constitutional Law professor said over and over again, and that was that the federal government has taken more and more control of the U.S. I have never, ever denied that fact and have complained bitterly about it time and again.  Anyone can look through the posts here (there are plenty) and see that I decry the added powers of the federal government all the time.
So much for those who say I love the feds, that is not true, the SCOTUS has always sided with the feds on some very clear cases where it was no business of the feds. Example: United States v. Lopez, where it was not an interstate commerce issue, but the feds made it one and the SCOTUS ruled for the fed, even with Sandra Day O'Connor strenuously objecting. But anyone picking and choosing what laws to obey? You know everyone is coming after you, from the locals to your beloved county sheriff to eventually the feds if they have to. I know something about political parties and revolutions, and the sovereign citizens aren't making points in either of those categories, no matter how many fake "legal documents" they compose. If nothing else, they need to go to law school. 
George N Romey Added May 2, 2017 - 11:05pm
Actually someone that has a good education and work experience will probably do much better living in a less developed world from both a career and economic prospective.  In fact, you will probably live like a King.
Jeff Jackson Added May 3, 2017 - 5:45am
Exactly George, like, maybe   someone who left the U.S. to live in a foreign and has a good education, of course they live well. In many of the "praised" countries, an education that the average American has is enough to be almost a college instructor, but let's not praise the American educational system, I'm sure there are some trolls that have a problem with it as well, not that I'm saying it is perfect by any means.
The other consideration is that one grand in U.S. can be worth much more in other nations. Devalued currency (to make their exports cheap) is a common practice in the "global" marketplace.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 3, 2017 - 7:18am
Having lived on four continents and in some very expensive places I can tell you that everywhere I have lived outside DUHmerica is superior to living in DUHmerica in every conceivable way.
 
From my 2700 Euro a month flat in Barcelona to a $6 a night bungalow on the north shore of Bali and everything in between. 
 
Vastly better. 
Jeff Jackson Added May 3, 2017 - 8:53am
I am truly happy for you Jeffry. Certainly living on 4 continents offers a perspective that few have. My personal experience was a family friend that lived in Mexico for decades, but got old and returned to the states. They also said using a description resembling so many places, "it wasn't what it used to be."  Being in education, I run into a few that went to China to teach English. None of them are anxious to go back, for whatever that means. 
Ian Thorpe Added May 3, 2017 - 1:55pm
It is the selectivity of those you describe as sovereign citizens about what laws they observe while demanding the full protection of the law, that demonstrates why anarchism, though popular as an idea with anti - authoritarians like me, would never work as a form of government. As Bob Dylan wrote a long time ago, "to live outside the law, you must be honest," not that I'm suggesting I'm some kind of angel. I break speed limits without compunction when I know there are no cameras around.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 3, 2017 - 1:56pm
None of them are anxious to go back, for whatever that means. 
 
What it more often than not means, if they're DUHmericans, is the freedom they experience there is too big a shock to their system. I have lived in Taiwan Hong Kong but only visited PRC less than two dozen times. (Shanghai is a lot of fun for us) and even though the later is supposedly a totalitarian state I experienced more freedom even there than I have in DUHmerica. 
 
Half a dozen former acquaintances followed my lead to Thailand over the past 18 years. All of them said nearly the exact same thing after just over a year here - "how can you live in this crazy country"! What they were reacting to is the utter lack of oppression and the seeming absence of law. In other words freedom is too foreign a concept for them. There are no rules to follow and no one to tell you you can't do this that or the other. Blows their mind to have to think for themselves and not be told what to do every damn minute of every day like in DUHmerica with all the threats on signs, on TV and radio and in the papers. 
 
These observations and my discussions with them while here and before they ran home cemented what I have known since May 4, 1970 - DUHmericans deep down in places they don't talk about at parties HATE freedom and get off on authoritarianism. 
 
 
Keith Added May 4, 2017 - 7:46am
"I'm no SC by a long shot and I did remove myself from the jurisdiction of those I hate with such burning passion. I did so because that government reneged on its part of the bargain. Basic contract law provides that when any party violates any part of the contract that contract becomes void."
 
Contract law is not the applicable law.  The notion that it is, and that you can remove yourself from the jurisdiction of the United States based on it, is classic sovereign citizen claptrap.  
 
To remove yourself from the jurisdiction of the United States, you must (among other things) permanently leave the United States.  If you remain in this nation you remain subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.  Period.  You may, in the fashion of "sovereign citizens" delude yourself that you are not, but your delusions do not change the facts.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 4, 2017 - 9:06am
Hey Keith, I haven't lived in the warmongering terrorist cesspool known as DUHmerica for more than three decades. Kindly do take your uninformed FNG nonsense elsewhere cupcake and mind the gap between train and platform. Off you go now BUH-Bye.
Keith Added May 4, 2017 - 9:09am
Well congratulations Jeffry, we hardly missed you.
Jeff Jackson Added May 4, 2017 - 9:15am
Good point Keith. Jeffry, if you hadn't noticed, hates the United States, and he is free to hate the U.S. as well as to leave, which is what he has done. Mr. Gilbert happily resides in Thailand, but rarely misses and opportunity to disparage the U.S. and people who are deluded into thinking it is a great country. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 4, 2017 - 9:27am
we hardly missed you.
 
That's the difference between us little man. I haven't missed you or anyone there. 
Keith Added May 4, 2017 - 10:02am
You are certainly a bitter man.  Have a good day, sir.
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 4, 2017 - 10:22am
Keith, you misspelled the fifth word. There are two "e" no "i". 
DEarley Added May 4, 2017 - 11:02am
Jeffry Gilbert.... I have to agree with you 100%..... America is NOT free. It is a cesspool.

We are a post-Constitution country. We are living under a tyranny and it becomes evident more and more every day. We've lost almost 100% of our freedoms. The only thing we have left is the 1st & 2nd Amendment... and you can see those are severely under attack.........  

I'm not against government. I'm against a CORRUPT government and globalism. The few people who are taking away our freedoms for the rest of the country don't want to live by their own rules. These corrupt bastards don't want you to have your God-given rights. As long as I don't cause harm to anyone, it should not matter to anyone what I do... and it is NONE of their business what I do in my own home..... That is what these tyrannical bastards are afraid of... you controlling your own life. They want 100% control of your life.... and dumb-downed America is letting them get away with it.

It's hard for people to snap out of the 24/7 propaganda bestowed on us through our TV and in our educational system... This anti-American sentiment you see in America... The good thing is people are awakening and realizing it... and that's the unrest/chaos/division you see the elite is causing across America and the world..... 
DEarley Added May 4, 2017 - 11:31am
There are two jurisdictions we are dealing with and the courts know it, e.g., Common Law and Admiralty/Maritime. Common Law is law of the "Land" and Admiralty is law of the "Sea." 
 
The rogue court system in this country is operating illegally under the color of law, under Admiralty. They will NEVER admit it. They are lying to you. We are under a foreign British court system. The judicial system's loyalty is to the Crown/England..... What do you think the BAR (British Accreditation Registry) is?

Admiralty can ONLY deal in FICTION. They cannot deal in NATURAL man. I have friends who have won court cases because they forced the court to establish their jurisdiction. They won't in many cases and they will either dismiss the case or you win if you stand your ground. The first thing you want to do is establish YOUR jurisdiction.

People need to get their head out of the a$$e$ and educate themselves. Once you allow yourself to fall into their jurisdiction, you lose ALL your Constitutional rights. You have NO Constitutional rights in court. When you have a lawyer represent you, you have waived all your rights.
 
The gold-fringe flag you see in the court room is a mutilation of the American flag. The difference is that the flag that is displayed is legal notice, to all who enter, of the type of law that holds jurisdiction. The constitutional United States flag signifies common law jurisdiction. The gold fringed U.S. flag is the Admiralty or War flag which denotes Admiralty or martial law.
 
Contract law is not the applicable law.  This is a BS statement. EVERYTHING is contract under the system we live in... EVERYTHING. We are forced to live in this commerce system.
 
To remove yourself from the jurisdiction of the United States, you must (among other things) permanently leave the United States. This is also a BS statement.... It's harder for people to establish their sovereign jurisdiction because of the corruption that has hijacked our God-given freedoms..... 
 
There is a LEGAL difference the United States and America the country. The U.S. is a foreign corporation in the land of America.... It's too much to get into now, but educate yourself and learn your history.


You have been brain-saturated with the BS propaganda corruption all your life... 
Jeff Jackson Added May 4, 2017 - 12:22pm
The origin of the term bar is from the barring furniture dividing a medieval European courtroom, similar to the origin of the term bank for the bench-like location of financial transactions in medieval Europe.”  In Britain they call them barristers, because they can step up to the bar. There is the British term “Bar” you discuss, but it does not apply to the U.S. law, the aforementioned furniture term is where bar comes from. 
 
 “You have NO Constitutional rights in court. When you have a lawyer represent you, you have waived all your rights.”  Perhaps where you went to court, not where I went. I had the right to step up to the bar (that pesky word again) pro se, (legal term, look it up if you are unfamiliar with it) offered photographic evidence and another defendant charged with the same offence offered the statutory evidence that the prosecution had no case since the offense as charged didn’t meet the statutory specifications. Case dismissed, you are free to go. Contract law? Not in this court.
 
“ EVERYTHING is contract under the system we live in... EVERYTHING.” Universal generalization, inherently erroneous, summarily false, no teleology required. Quite a surprise for me as I studied various laws including election law, business law, constitutional law, etc.  I should have told the instructors that. Man, was I misled. I learn so much more stuff here on WB. I should make this a course requirement for students.
 
“It's harder for people to establish their sovereign jurisdiction because of the corruption that has hijacked our God-given freedoms...”  A short essay on the establishment of our sovereign jurisdiction would be appreciated, since you seem to be well-versed in this area.  
“The U.S. is a foreign corporation in the land of America.... It's too much to get into now, but educate yourself and learn your history.” Perhaps you could recommend some books, as it appears my dozens of history books in my private library fall short in this area.
The more time I spend on WB the more I realize that I have been brain-saturated with the B.S. of propaganda. It has been a true learning experience…
Keith Added May 4, 2017 - 1:03pm
"There are two jurisdictions we are dealing with and the courts know it, e.g., Common Law and Admiralty/Maritime. Common Law is law of the "Land" and Admiralty is law of the "Sea." "
 
Honestly, where do you people get this flat out legal gibberish from?  It's total nonsense having no foundation in reality.  
 
"I have friends who have won court cases because they forced the court to establish their jurisdiction."
 
Then I am sure you won't mind citing those cases that we can all read them.  Right?
 
"You have NO Constitutional rights in court."
 
Yet  I know of people who have won cases because their Constitutional rights (that you claim don't exist) were breached.  Unlike you, I can even cite the cases, provide links to them, so that anyone can read them.  
 
"EVERYTHING is contract under the system we live in."
 
Absurdly false.  Not all law is contract law.  For example, criminal law is not contract law.  There are other examples, but we will just start with that.  
 
"The U.S. is a foreign corporation in the land of America."
 
More sovereign citizen batfecalmaterial crazy propaganda.  The United States is not any kind of "corporation", foreign or otherwise.  It is a sovereign nation whose laws may allow people to form corporations, but it is not itself any kind of corporation.
 
 
Jeff Jackson Added May 4, 2017 - 1:17pm
Keith, you, I, and Ian have read all of the wrong books and we're just products of the propaganda. I feel like such a victim here, after being set straight by all of the geniuses here at WB. "I'm wondering if rehab will work or perhaps I should just file for permanent disability...
As I said, “ EVERYTHING is contract under the system we live in... EVERYTHING.” Universal generalization, inherently erroneous, summarily false, no teleology required. Thanks for your insight Keith. For a while there I thought I was all alone out here...
John Minehan Added May 4, 2017 - 6:52pm
The thing I do  not understand about this is why they (or anyone) would think a county sheriff would have that kind of power.
 
The best known sheriff in English culture is the Sheriff of Nottingham, who is portrayed as a lackey of  King John Lackland, who is portrayed as a tyrant in the same legend.
 
A sheriff does not have that much power under English Common Law and there is nothing in early American history that I would see as justifying their views. 
John Minehan Added May 4, 2017 - 6:54pm
There is more of this than you would think (and much more than is reasonable).
 
Most lawyers have had someone come in who was sent process from a "Common Law" Court, which, of course, the person can completely ignore.  
Jeff Jackson Added May 4, 2017 - 8:33pm
John even with my incredibly bad knowledge of history, the term "sheriff" came the the term "shire" which were some of the first legal entities of English law. The sheriff was the legal authority of the shire. So the Sheriff of Nottingham was the legal authority of the shire Nottingham, making Robin Hood and his pals lawbreakers. At that point in time the royalty was the law, and the sheriff the minion of the royalty, but still "the law" as we would know it.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 5, 2017 - 4:34am
Mr. Gilbert happily resides in Thailand, but rarely misses and opportunity to disparage the U.S.
 
"Why" you seem to ask. 
 
The main reason is the behavior of the last few Ambassadors and others who work for the DUHmerican gov't in Thailand. 
 
Despite my removing myself from the country of the immense bad luck of my birth, moving to the opposite side of the planet, at last throwing off the yoke of my inculcation those bastards are not happy to leave me in peace these last months of my life. 
 
Rather they send a Graduate Warmonger as Ambassador. What kind of country sends a second generation career diplomat to the US War College? A warmongering terrorist one. Murphy's graduate work there was focused on methods to undermine and overthrow the host country. Bet that gives you a chubby Keith doesn't it? Hmm?
 
DUHmerica has billions invested in their bought and paid for convicted criminal fugitive from justice billionaire former Prime Minister and don't care one bit that the majority of people of Thailand don't want him back. In DUHmerica's eyes DUHmerica is boss of the world and all others will do as told or be made to do so by whatever means DUHmerica chooses. All options are on the table doncha know. 
 
I'm a sick nearly dead old man who can't get around very well or even swallow water some of the time so there's nothing I can do to stop these monsters. I can only hope to live long enough to see the utter destruction of the most prolific warmongering terrorist regime ever to infect the planet. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 5, 2017 - 4:41am
Jeffry Gilbert.... I have to agree with you 100%..... America is NOT free. It is a cesspool.
 
Thanks for not being afraid to see what so many others refuse to acknowledge. Those with the means and the skills are increasingly leaving DUHmerica for other freer easier places to live. Good luck.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 5, 2017 - 3:58pm