DIGITAL DISSIDENTS

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Digital dissidents
 
Since I'm a regular on Al-Jazeera, I was just watching the documentary about whistleblowers. I mean everybody knows Ed Snowden or Julian Assange by now. Some say these two are traitors, some say they are heroes. I think they are none of the two - simply very courageous people who have a sense for injustice and crime.
 
Now you might say, hey, crime ? Yes, crime. but it's not THEM who have committed the crimes, but the ones who wilfully and on purpose lie to their own people. The traitors are the ones who accuse them being traitors.
 
The traitors are the ones who try to set up a worldwide system of digital surveillance and total control in order to feed their delusional dreams of world government - world enslavement, after all. The media is already in their hands, the Internet and - despite some darknetters around (but......ARE they really in the "dark" or is that "darknet" also a setup to easier control those groups ?), or some social groups or sites which are not censored yet, there is not much possibility for the regular Joe to get REAL news and stories.
 
The last and newest step are dumbphones. Yes, I call them as such, because people who use them TODAY are dumb, careless or live by the illusion of "I don't do anything wrong, so they can control me". Well, they don't only control you and your movements, but also what you SAY. Freedom of speech (or write) until you get the cops in your house because you don't seem politically correct ?
 
Your life is managed not by you, realize that. Not even what you THINK might be what YOU think, deep down. You're being led to where you are, and soon you will say what they tell you to - because you don't have the choice to find another source of which you can escape that newthink or newspeak.
 
Whistleblowers are not traitors. They are the last ones who fight for our freedom, and when you deny that, you're already been taken in by THEM - by the enemies of freedom and free opinion.

 


  

Comments

Ari Silverstein Added May 9, 2017 - 6:53am
It’s a crime to share top secret information.  To be sure, they are both courageous, but in the same way a bank robber is courageous.  I like my heroes to put their courage to the test on behalf of the good guys.  Like the courageous doctor in Pakistan that helped us find bin Laden.  The doctor, who is now likely dead thanks to dickheads like Snowden, is a courageous hero and someone you should admire.  
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 7:06am
Ari
 
You miss the point.
 
Like the courageous doctor in Pakistan that helped us find bin Laden
 
As you might know Bin Laden was a creation of US secret services and politics. And therefore that doctor did surely a good thing in his view, but unfortunately took the wrong side.
 
It’s a crime to share top secret information
 
So it is a crime to share top secret information which is intended not to serve a population or a country but only some certain elite with geostrategic plans which are NOT directed to the good of all ?
 
Quite the opposite. People like Snowden or Assange, given they are genuine, help the world to see behind the curtain and maybe fight against a system which is driving the world towards desaster.
 
But I see that you've got the mindset of THEM. So I don't think you'll understand my motivation and POV:
Ari Silverstein Added May 9, 2017 - 7:27am
Not liking America is one thing, siding with the likes of bin Laden makes you a nothing.  I won’t waste any of my conversing with a nothing.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 8:17am
Ari
 
Siding with Bin Ladin would be siding with the US. Do read about the history of Al-Qaeda before you accuse :-) You choose a very easy way out.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 8:19am
BTW: I don't feel insulted by your saying I'm a "nothing". Why ? Because you show that you don't reflect before commenting.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 9, 2017 - 8:56am
Ari continues to burnish his obtuse credentials. 
Dino Manalis Added May 9, 2017 - 9:37am
True, but should they make their arguments defending themselves in court, or should they keep hiding from the State?
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 9:46am
Dino
 
When a court would be INDEPENDENT and stick to the law......but which court is ? Forget it :-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 9:47am
BTW: Laws are written and used by the ones who have the power in order to serve the ones which are in power...
Doug Plumb Added May 9, 2017 - 10:29am
If Julian Assange or Ed Snowden were real, they would not be on Mainstream. Hollywood even made a movie about one of them. You may as well be watching a history channel documentary.
Doug Plumb Added May 9, 2017 - 10:30am
re "It’s a crime to share top secret information."
 
Its against common law to keep information secret.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 10:41am
Doug
 
If Julian Assange or Ed Snowden were real, they would not be on Mainstream
 
That is worth thinking about - I ask myself. But I don't wanna go that far....and hope that they aren't a means of THEM to distract the people and create a false sense of "there's still some justice in that world"...
 
 
George N Romey Added May 9, 2017 - 11:00am
Julian Assange and Ed Snowden should be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 11:05am
Hi George, nice to see you here. But then - Doug has a point to consider as I said.
 
It's like the darknet. You can use Tor browser and they tell you that you're not gonna be spied after. But then - some agency might know by a hole in Tor WHO is using the browser and get a neat complete picture of so-called enemies ot the state.
 
A lot easier to bundle them in one range than seach for them on the official net...
Ric Wells Added May 9, 2017 - 11:42am
Ari I suggest you read The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 12:13pm
Ric
 
Thanks. News for me too.
Jeff Jackson Added May 9, 2017 - 1:07pm
It is the responsibility of the citizens to ensure the honesty of the government, and not really vice-versa. That notion was proposed by Robert Jackson, Supreme Court associate and well-known lawyer of the time. If Jackson was on the bench and Snowden or Assange turn out to be revealing corruption, then he would be the first to exonerate them. 
 
I think the distinction lies with whether revealing information was in fact revealing corruption, or just endangering citizens or operatives of the U.S. 
 
It may be true that the U.S. is spying on foreign governments, but that is hardly corruption, in fact, we pay people to do it. If the information is in fact revealing corruption, then it is time to let Snowden and Assange free. If, however, they breached protocols and released information that only endangers operations of the U.S., then they are guilty of treason. Despite their protests, there is a clear difference. Revealing information and endangering the lives of U.S. operatives, whether we are at war or not, is treason.
 
The other side to this is that people have released information that endangered their fellow citizens even when they were not aware of the danger that they put their fellow citizens in. Information is classified for reasons greater than corruption, and one piece of information might be the missing piece to the puzzle for a foreign government that intends the U.S. harm. I honestly do not know, and am not about to make judgments on their actions. They seem afraid to face U.S. courts. If what they revealed is corruption, they have nothing to worry about, and yet, they seem worried.  
 
I honestly do not know and will not judge at this point. As stated, the deciding factor is corruption, or endangering U.S. operatives. If  they were not U.S. citizens and they hacked into databases or information, then they would just be spies, and not traitors. There is a difference.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 1:31pm
Hi Jeff
 
It is the responsibility of the citizens to ensure the honesty of the government, and not really vice-versa
 
Responsibility requires power...
 
they breached protocols and released information that only endangers operations of the U.S., then they are guilty of treason
 
Now we have to look at this at a broader scale. If that information only concerns internal US matters, I agree. But when it does, WHAT it does, concerns illegal operations and wars of the US on independent countries, like the UN charta tells us
 
4. All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
 
WHO leads the UN ? WHY is there a "security council" that can give a shit about that charta ?
 
It's all hypocrisy and bullshit in the name of the big finance. And you know it.
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 1:33pm
BTW: THIS is what those "traitors" talk about. And everybody who tells me they're wrong has a) a disorder on his harddisk or b) is part of THEM.
Ric Wells Added May 9, 2017 - 1:46pm
Stone if I may. Power requires responsibility which is definitely lacking in all corners of the globe these days.
Jeff Jackson Added May 9, 2017 - 1:48pm
Stone-Eater, I'm with you that big finance has a part. If the people who are  fomenting revolutions and/or rigging elections in foreign countries are discovered, they are in violation of federal law, which was passed after we interfered with Salvatore Allende in Chile. We do not have the right to interfere in the elections of other countries. (I know that many of you are astonished to hear me say that.) 
Mircea Negres Added May 9, 2017 - 2:03pm
Stone-Eater, I agree with what you've said. In South Africa, the vast majority of whistleblowers had their lives destroyed and some were killed even though there exist laws to protect them (e. the Protected Disclosures Act)- all because they exposed to the public ugly and sometimes classified stories which did harm to others and were classified in order to hide them from public review in defiance of yet other laws which make it a criminal offence to classify information about wrongdoing in order to cover it up, and that's after every other internal mechanism set up to deal with wrongdoing did not work. A good example is the sports commentator Graeme Joffe. He discovered and began to investigate corruption in SA sport, but in short order somebody called him and told him to dump his cellphone and run because assassins were coming to kill him. Within a matter of days he was in the U.S., working for CNN in Atlanta. Here's a quote from an episode of The Blacklist series: "You know what happens to whistleblowers? Kooks, paranoid freaks. You'll be a keynote at their next woo-woo convention, and your people will be just as dead".
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 2:04pm
Jeff
 
Thanks. That's what I mean. But there will always be countries which overestimate their power. As life is temporary, power is as well :-)
Mircea Negres Added May 9, 2017 - 2:09pm
Ari, it is not supposed to be a crime to reveal classified information if it points to illegal acts committed. That's called "the public interest clause", and you're dead wrong. You mean to tell me that Daniel Ellsberg was wrong to have divulged the contents of the Pentagon Papers which demonstrated that the American government knew the Vietnam War was unwinnable the way they fought it and yet told the people otherwise? What about MKULTRA? You mean to tell me its victims should've kept quiet because that immoral and illegal operation was classified? What about the massacre at My Lai? Should the people who tried to help the villagers escape that horror and spoke about it afterwards have kept quiet too? Come on!
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 2:32pm
Mircea
 
Spot on. But some people just don't take the time to use their brain ;-)
Ric Wells Added May 9, 2017 - 2:37pm
Mircea can't sat it any better. 
Ric Wells Added May 9, 2017 - 2:38pm
Say not sat. Fumble fingers.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 3:00pm
Yep. Mircea is a sure bet. Good to have him here.
wsucram15 Added May 9, 2017 - 3:10pm
SEF..I dont care what anyone says..I agree totally.  Unfortunately, many here do not agree or believe it or not, dont know the difference between Assange and Snowden.  Some here, that are educated, dont know what either of them have done or attempted to do... as in many before them.
They live from social media and can tell you the latest post on that. Period.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 3:15pm
Jeanne
 
Thanks. I wait for your latest music news ;-)
Ric Wells Added May 9, 2017 - 3:15pm
Wsucram15. Makes no difference. Those that wallow in darkness shall either stay or when they start to emerge might be afraid of the shadows that haunt. It is a process and cannot be rushed.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 3:17pm
Ric
 
Maybe it has to be rushed, because if not there may be no time left...
Ric Wells Added May 9, 2017 - 3:19pm
Maybe but then by rushing important fundamentals will probably be skipped making the transition useless.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 3:24pm
Fundamentals are always left out because they don't touch power and profit, but only the mind.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 4:39pm
Blues improvisation...
 
Sorry I have to make pub for it. Some people like it why not you LOL
 
...and if not I'm grateful for tips :-)
Donna Added May 9, 2017 - 4:40pm
Stone, i think the article and all of your responses are spot on, as the Brits would say!  )0(
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 4:48pm
Donna
 
Thank you. I try. :-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 9, 2017 - 4:53pm
All
 
I know that I've put some music stuff in it. It does not fit into the subject.
 
But I'd like to put your attention a bit away from politics and other sad stuff to things that can help us overcome the situation and keep us sane. So - please - if you paint, play music, or whatever, share it with us !
 
Here on WB. There's no better place, and you'll get the rants you deserve LOL
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 9, 2017 - 7:00pm
then they are guilty of treason.
 
You fucking dolt Assange is Aussie. He can't be guilty of treason for revealing DUHmerican misdeeds. 
 
Your so-called research tells you otherwise didn't it. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 9, 2017 - 7:04pm
They seem afraid to face U.S. courts. If what they revealed is corruption, they have nothing to worry about, and yet, they seem worried.
 
After all DUHfuckingmerican Courts are utterly beyond reproach and have never been used as a means to quell dissent. 
 
Rah rah rah sis boom bah go team go we're number one USA USA USA BLAH Blah blah.
Jeff Jackson Added May 9, 2017 - 9:24pm
Not treason, but federal crime under extradition treaty there, genius.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 9, 2017 - 10:04pm
Not treason, but federal crime under extradition treaty there, genius.
 
Fuck DUHmerica! Fuck its warmongering, fuck its CIA, NSA, DHS et al., fuck its, interfering in other nations elections and affairs, fuck its terrorism, fuck its dollar hegemony and fuck any dimwitted mutherfucker who supports any of it. 
 
Assange is a hero. 
 
Snowden is a hero.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 9, 2017 - 10:34pm
Assange for FBI Director!
Jenifer Frost Added May 9, 2017 - 11:58pm
"The traitors are the ones who accuse them being traitors." 
I couldn't agree more. Those who don't understand this understand very little indeed. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 2:49am
Jeffry
 
Assange for FBI Director!
 
Under Trump ? LOL I think Snowden would be better placed since he's American....
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 2:50am
Jenifer
 
They don't WANT to understand. It reminds me of somc of the comments in Expat's article about Thailand....
Minister Peaceful Poet Added May 10, 2017 - 3:43am
I think they're hero's. 
John G Added May 10, 2017 - 4:19am
Al Jazeera is western propaganda.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 4:22am
John
 
....but still better than CNN, BBC or the like. RT is not bad too, but they all are Western propaganda to some degree. And I don't understand Russian or Chinese...
Utpal Patel Added May 10, 2017 - 8:17am
As defined by the dictionary, a whistleblower is a person who informs on a person or organization engage in an illicit activity and a traitor is a person who commits treason.  Based on those definitions, Snowden is no whistleblower as the NSA data collection program was legal per the Patriot Act.  It remains legal today, albeit with a few more hoops to jump through by NSA spooks.  So even if the only thing he informed the world about was the NSA data collection program, he would be guilty of treason.  The problem is that Snowden informed them of much more and Assange illegally made this information public.  The secrets he shared put the whole world at much greater risk and that is why they were supposed to remain secret. 
Jeff Jackson Added May 10, 2017 - 8:24am
Utpal, you might want to be careful with facts around here. Some of the folks here are allergic to facts; they live in a fantasy world where your facts are just conjecture and/or nothing more than corrupt propaganda. I agree with you, but I can't say many people here are going to, because anyone who stiffs the U.S. is a hero, and they are never satisfied no matter how much criticism you can heap on America, it's not enough.  Nice post Utpal. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 9:22am
a whistleblower is a person who informs on a person or organization engage in an illicit activity
 
Ok, so that point for Snowden.
 
the NSA data collection program was legal per the Patriot Act.
 
It was being "legalized" following an illegal activity in Iraq, which was triggered by 9/11, which in turn is questioned by MANY not having been what the government/media told the people...
 
Who defines what "legal" is ?
 
The secrets he shared put the whole world at much greater risk
 
Those secrets may have put the world to greater risk only because the world found out what the US MIC agenda was and is about...
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 9:25am
Jeff
 
Some of the folks here are allergic to facts; they live in a fantasy world where your facts are just conjecture and/or nothing more than corrupt propaganda
 
I don't want to discuss "facts" with you here, because you seem to have a copyright on what facts are and what not...
Bill Kamps Added May 10, 2017 - 9:25am
Generally it is a good thing to keep secrets from our enemies. The problem happens when things are classified secret so that the public doesnt know what its government is doing.  If no one talked about the NSA spying on Americans, we wouldnt know they were doing it. Much the same for the other information that Assange and Snowden disclosed. 
 
Apparently our process of oversight was failing.  At least some in Congress, those with appropriate clearances, are supposed to provide oversight for what is classified, and what the government is doing.  Given what we learned from Snowden and Assange, that apparently isnt happening.
 
So technically, in Utpal's definition they broke the law.  However, at what point do we decide that the government has used the law, and used classified information as a way to hide wrongdoing from the public ?  that is a difficult line to draw.  Pretty clearly  our government has crossed that line multiple times, so I am happy with what Snowden and Assange have done.  The leak of information from the DNC during the election also furthered the public good, because it showed how the Clinton campaign manipulated the DNC against Sanders.
 
The problem happens when government loses the trust of the people and we can no longer trust them to decide what is secret, and what information to hide not just from adversaries, but from the  public as well. 
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 9:28am
Bill
 
Thanks. Objective as usual.
FremanOfDune Added May 10, 2017 - 11:43am
Morning Mr Stone-Eater, I enjoyed the article.
I agree, something that generally, has to be done in the dark and cannot be exposed to the light, is almost never good.
 
However, we cannot deny that when in periods of conflict, holding your cards close to your chest is not a bad a idea. The problem with this that many have done nefarious acts and hidden them using the same mechanism.
 
However, regarding spies and information, and the obtainment of such. Particularly during periods of conflict, I defer to Sun Tzu/the "Art of War". 
 
Have a good day
 
Jenifer Frost Added May 10, 2017 - 11:54am
The "Patriot Act" violates the United States Constitution (due process and the 4th Amendment to be specific) and therefore is about as legal as it is patriotic (namely ZERO percent) anyone who can't understand this is about as dumb as a bag of hair (like the morons who seem to think Assange is an American citizen or somehow subject to America laws, DUMB). 
Jeff Jackson Added May 10, 2017 - 12:06pm
If Assange violated U.S. law, he can be prosecuted under the extradition treaty between Australia and the U.S., so, citizen or not, Assange could face the same consequences as a citizen, so, de jure, he is a citizen. So say the DUMB people, who understand international law. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 12:07pm
FOD
 
Thanks for the tip :-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 12:11pm
Jenifer
 
Thanks for that info. As a foreigner I'm not too deep into US constitution stuff but I knew that the whole agenda stinks in a 5000 mile radius ;-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 12:16pm
BTW FOD
 
However, we cannot deny that when in periods of conflict, holding your cards close to your chest is not a bad a idea
 
I agree. But in most cases these cards tell the purpose of the conflict, and since it's rarely for a good cause they know why they keep it in the dark...
John Minehan Added May 10, 2017 - 12:18pm
You agree NOT to reveal the things you have access to when you are granted a Clearance and Access.
 
Sir Thomas More: When a man takes an oath, he's holding his own self in his own hands like water and if he opens his fingers then, he needn't hope to find himself again.  Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons
 
If you become privy to something that should be revealed, you have a moral dilemma.
 
Thankfully, I never had this issue present.  If I had, I would hope I would have had the courage to "blow the whistle" AND take the consequences.
 
Sir Thomas More: [in his prison cell] ... If we lived in a state where virtue was profitable, common sense would make us saintly. But since we see that abhorrence, anger, pride, and stupidity commonly profit far beyond charity, modesty, justice, and thought, perhaps we must stand fast a little - even at the risk of being heroes...
Margaret More: [crying] But in reason! Haven't you done as much as God can reasonably want?
Sir Thomas More: ...Well, finally... it isn't a matter of reason. Finally, it's a matter of love.  Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons  
 
I agree with John Lennon, "Question authority."  But I also think you also have to "Question yourself."  
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 12:21pm
Jeff
 
You're a blind follower of LAWS who apparently would like to apply any law BECAUSE it's a law without even thinking about a) who created that law for which purpose and b) who misused that law for which purpose or c) if it corresponds to common sense to even APPLY that law.
 
See Jenifer's reply. Blind trust in "authority" and laws lead nowhere. On the contrary: THEY will have you where they want you to be.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 12:34pm
John
 
Well, finally... it isn't a matter of reason. Finally, it's a matter of love
 
Good one. Sometimes one does not need too many words.
Jeff Jackson Added May 10, 2017 - 12:37pm
Stone-Eater, I didn't say the law was right, I just stated what it could do it it wanted to. The assertion was that I was dumb, because I thought that Assange could go to prison in the U.S. The point was made that you cannot commit federal crimes against the U.S. even if not in the U.S. Assange, by violating U.S. law, and by way of extradition treaty, meets, de jure the qualification of being a citizen in terms of being prosecuted. I made no comment on whether the law was right, wrong fair or unfair, constitutional, unconstitutional or anything else. I understand it is a fine point, but the fine point was that I was dumb to think that Assange could go to jail in the U.S. The dumber of us thinks he is immune to the "long arm" of the law, which started in the 1930s in the U.S.
Again, let me say it, I am not making any judgments as to the guilt of either Assange or Snowden, but both are subject to U.S. law, like it or not. This is why there are extradition treaties. Now, it is entirely possible that the Australian courts could stand up and say that they are not letting Assange go back to that wicked, evil U.S. This could happen as well. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 12:47pm
Jeff
 
I'm sure you're right from the juridical point of view. But I'm talking about the MORAL point of view, and for me that weighs more than the juridical one.
 
The purpose of law is justice. And justice roots in morality. When this is not the case anymore, or is misused, we need people like Assange or Snowden who try to get us back to the path of morality, or remind us that this should be the basis of our living together as people and nations.
 
If not, these laws are useless but to a small group of reckless people who have the possibility to create them, set them up and enforce them in THEIR favor.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 10, 2017 - 12:53pm
If not, these laws are useless but to a small group of reckless people who have the possibility to create them, set them up and enforce them in THEIR favor.
 
That's just what exists in reality. They make their laws and depend on the Jeff Jackson's of the planet to believe they are of value. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 12:54pm
Jeffry
 
...but it's hard to get people off the square to see the different roads on the crossing ;-)
Bill Kamps Added May 10, 2017 - 1:59pm
It is not an easy matter, some laws, like the laws surrounding security clearances were created for good reasons.  The problem is that classifying things is a handy way to keep things from not only public view, but widespread view within the government.  Since we have thousands of people with classified clearances it becomes difficult to oversee it all, who reviews the classification ? often it may be someone else with the same issue to keep the information from common view.  The Congress cant review every document, the White House cant review every document, and so whether it is for reasons of plausible deniability, or just too many documents, lots of things are not properly reviewed before being classified.
 
 
The Patriot Act is a farce, and is an emotional response to 9-11. Congress felt it had to something, and as often is the case when people are threatened the government used this threat to acquire more power, and deny citizens their rights.  It happens almost every month around the world, Turkey comes to mind as a recent example. Guantanamo, laws discarding due process when charged with being a terrorist, NSA spying are all within the Patriot Act and are unconstitutional.  Unfortunately, someone has to bring that charge to the courts, the courts cannot instigate the process.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 2:21pm
Bill
 
The Patriot Act is a farce, and is an emotional response to 9-11. Congress felt it had to something, and as often is the case when people are threatened the government used this threat to acquire more power, and deny citizens their rights
 
First you create fear, and then you set up the laws......;-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 2:22pm
BTW: They do it in Europe too. But some countries here have seen the development in the US and say NO. Thanks ;-)
Jenifer Frost Added May 10, 2017 - 2:44pm
Stone-Eater writes "The purpose of law is justice. And justice roots in morality." As a Kemetian that's where I'm coming from as well, always. Justice is the highest virtue. Abuse of Justice is chaos which is a cancer on all civilization the door to the end of civilized behavior. It's that serious. The founding fathers established the constitution to protect against tyranny. The "Patriot" Act is pure tyranny. And because it violates the 4th Amendment of the United States Constitution it is an illegal law, as useless, corrupt, evil, amoral and injust as it comes. If you don't like the Constitution like Jeff you use LEGAL measures to amend and change it. You don't just ignore and shit all over it by producing and defending illegal unconstitutional "laws". That's Constitutional law 101.
Bill Kamps Added May 10, 2017 - 2:51pm
Stone, exactly.  I think the French suspended the need for a warrant for a search in places where they suspected a terrorist.  Im not sure if that was repealed since, or it is still in place.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 2:53pm
Jenifer
 
That ignoring of contracts is seen here:
 
UN charta excerpts:
 
All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
 

To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;
To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

Now who's the leader of that organisation and HOW does it respect its own blathering ?
 
I can't eat as much as I'd like to puke.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 2:56pm
...and that's why I like people like Snowden and Assange.
 
It needs a lot of bricks before the eyes to denounce that.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 2:58pm
Bill
 
No idea. But here in Europe lots of people talk about inside jobs concerning those "terrorist attacks". It's too obvious. In most cases the terrorist left his ID on site LOL
Jenifer Frost Added May 10, 2017 - 3:07pm
The United States ignores International law all the time (last time was when Trump bombed Syria), why stop now? Rethorical question, the answer is obviously because it's wrong. You can't argue for part of international law but against the rest. 
 
Far too many people like to pretend that the Constitution is not really the law, pretend it's just a strong suggestion or recommendation. It's not, it is the law. The highest law of the land in the United States. Ignoring it makes a farce of all other laws and America in general. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 3:15pm
Jenifer
 
I guess that's a general behavior of all empires. Until they crumble and disappear. Too much of anything doesn't work out in the long run ;-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 6:56pm
001110011110101010
 
Good night. I'm going to get my whistle blown. Oh, does that quality me for censorship ? Oh well, never mind :-)
Ric Wells Added May 10, 2017 - 6:58pm
Just make sure you toot her horn as well. Censored.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 10, 2017 - 7:02pm
LOL
Jeff Michka Added May 10, 2017 - 9:04pm
Although slightly off topic, time for a bit of musical humor and a new act for SEFa to marvel over, nearly along side Freddy Quinn, Seaman Dan.  Seaman Dan is from Thursday Island in the Torres Straits.  I  understand Seaman Dan didn't see the inside of a recording studio until he was over 70.  He does some interesting blues stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Zy2thT5lE&index=76&list=PLbALvAc3reSHP5mjFPwVmONA4hVc_QmTK
Jeff Michka Added May 10, 2017 - 9:05pm
Seaman Dan has a better voice than Julian Assange or Ed Snowden, IMO. and better percussion section, too.
John G Added May 11, 2017 - 2:26am
 The Patriot Act is a farce, and is an emotional response to 9-11.
An emotional response to 11/9/2001 written in 1996 by Joe Biden mostly.
Is there no American propaganda you won't believe?
 
Mircea Negres Added May 11, 2017 - 3:24am
The problem with Assange was that he released information indiscriminately. This apparently endangered some people's lives and the U.S. government said others were killed. Much as he did good, he also did bad, but if it wasn't for a whistleblower and Wikileaks, how and why a Reuters camera crew and civilians who tried to help them were killed by a U.S. Apache helicopter in Iraq (the video titled Collateral Murder, shown on Al Jazeera some years ago) would not have become known because the government was not cooperating with FOIA requests to release the cockpit tapes.
 
Years before Snowden's disclosure of Prism and associated surveillance programs, a guy who used to work for AT&T went public with accusations that the company was working with the U.S. government to illegally eavesdrop on Americans. He was dismissed by mainstream media and the U.S. government as a fantasist, lost his job and went through hell. Lo and behold, Snowden released the information which proved the guy was right and now Snowden is a traitor...
 
These are just two cases in which the American government engaged in cover-ups and smear campaigns to prevent people from finding out what it was doing, and thus causing great harm to those who tried to expose its misdeeds. These are not the actions of a just government by any stretch of the definition, although to be fair, the U.S. government is not the only one doing it, because I can tell you of a case in which the South African government tried to have declared insane a man who was ringing every alarm bell he could about the problems he saw.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 11, 2017 - 6:59am
Jeff
 
Thanks for the link !
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 11, 2017 - 7:01am
Mircea
 
True - a lot of countries are no better. But their actions don't have worldwide effects...
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 11, 2017 - 7:30am
True - a lot of countries are no better. But their actions don't have worldwide effects...
 
And therein lies the rub.
Bill Kamps Added May 11, 2017 - 9:29am
Yes the problem is the US is the elephant in the china shop, when it makes a misstep, its a big mess.
 
Mircea it is true that useful secrets are disclosed when Assange and Snowden do their leaks, and it is possible good people are put at risk.  This is why it would be better to have proper oversight of classified information.  However, using the risk to good people, as a reason to secure coverups is too much to tolerate. 
 
The blame should not be put on Snowden, but on the people in government covering up their acts.  They are the  ones that made the leaks necessary.  Arresting the likes of Snowden and putting the blame on them is just  a smoke screen so we dont notice what the government is up to.
 
Government employees need to know they may be exposed if they are doing things they shouldnt be doing.  We cant allow them to classify information as secret and feel secure.  If it takes the likes of Snowden to help fix the  problem so be it, it is unfortunate some people are put at risk.  Congress needs to fix the problem if they dont like the consequences.
Mircea Negres Added May 11, 2017 - 10:33am
Bill, I agree completely with you. It's just that I prefer Snowden's more discriminating approach to the amount and type of information he divulges, as opposed to Assange's mass data dump. The important thing for all of us to remember is both men showed conclusively the American government was involved in skulduggery and their efforts may lead to a clean up of the messes government apparatchiks tried to hide behind the walls of information classification- assuming Congress ever gets its oversight act together and kicks some bureaucratic ass in the process, that is.  
Sander de Kool Added May 11, 2017 - 1:30pm
Yes, all our governments lie to us now and than. But is that so bad? Most of us want more safety, feel more secure and have less criminals in their neighborhoods. I think you van not have it both ways. You can not have total freedom and total security. To be safe and secure, the governments needs nasty ways to check things. And to do so, they need to lie to the people about it. Has it gone to far? I do think so, but I do not have the answer how it should be. 
 
I have nothing to hide, I really do not care wetter my phone calls, emails, browser history, etc are being watched. I wish them much fun with my boring massages ;-). 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 11, 2017 - 2:27pm
Sander
 
You can not have total freedom and total security.
 
Not total, but almost. Life is not 100% predictable, you might get sick and die. But it depends to 99% on your behavior - wherever you are. I lived in Africa for 20 years on and off now, and the only place I was ever aggressed was Switzerland....
Ric Wells Added May 11, 2017 - 2:48pm
There is a difference between lying and withholding legitimate information for national security reasons. Lying to a people whose govt purports to be of by and for the people is the ultimate insult and transgression. It is the ultimate deception to garner and maintain control over what has become an enslaved population.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 11, 2017 - 3:58pm
I have nothing to hide, I really do not care wetter my phone calls, emails, browser history, etc are being watched. I wish them much fun with my boring massages ;-). 
 
Well good for you! I suggest you stop locking your home and vehicles since you have nothing to hide and you value nothing. Publish your account numbers and passwords while your at it. After all you have nothing to hide and don't value your natural rights. Bow down before your monarch! 
 
 
This guy isn't using his natural rights so fuck it neither should we. /sarcasm
Mircea Negres Added May 12, 2017 - 3:56am
Sander, do you have 5 forced sex slaves  tied up in the basement, 200 kilos of pure cocaine in the kitchen cupboard, the bodies of 50 kids in your walls and a stolen Rembrandt hanging in your bathroom? No? Then why would you lock your front door if you've got nothing to hide from the cops so they can search without a warrant whenever they feel like it or get "probable cause"?
 
"Giving up your right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is the same as giving up your right to free speech because you have nothing to say". Edward Snowden
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 12, 2017 - 11:38am
"Giving up your right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is the same as giving up your right to free speech because you have nothing to say". Edward Snowden
 
Wow. A coming classic :-)
Mircea Negres Added May 13, 2017 - 2:31am
Stone-Eater, apparently Snowden said that a few months ago, during a video conference with a bunch of South Africans concerned about privacy issues and government surveillance. I'm not sure if the quote is 100% accurate, but it's how I remember it. Yes, it is "A coming classic" because of people's lack of concern at governments' increased surveillance of and intrusion in our lives. One day they'll pay for that, and Snowden will be thought a prophet. This is what's been happening in South Africa for years, yet the majority of the population is not freaking out--->  https://mg.co.za/article/2011-10-14-secret-state/  
Sander de Kool Added May 13, 2017 - 2:56am
Jeffry, thx for you comment. That is really not the same thing. Breaking in or listing to my phonecalls... I do value my rights and feel blessed to be born in The Netherlands, one of the best places to live in the world. But I also think that it is necessary for the government to take desperate maesures for our safety. Again, I think it has gone too far, but I do believe that these things are requierd to help us keep safer. The problem is that it easily can be misused for other reasons and that it is to much data to keep safe. 
 
@ Mircea, thank you. But also for you, that is not the same. My calls, emails, etc. are not even close to the protection of my house, my private space. I know that it can be seen as the same, I don't see it that way. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 13, 2017 - 3:51am
Mircea
 
Thanks. I knew it's no better in Africa. Senegal tapes all Whatsapp content now. Although that has mostly to do with the situation in the Sahel.
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 13, 2017 - 3:53am
Sander
 
Holland should try to protect itself from the NSA LOL
 
 
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 13, 2017 - 7:34am
The problem is that it easily can be misused for other reasons and that it is to much data to keep safe
 
Which is why it can't be allowed at all. 
Jenifer Frost Added May 13, 2017 - 6:18pm
The problem isn't what the surveillance is used for. The problem is that it violates the US Constitution and is illegal in the first place. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 14, 2017 - 8:38am
Same in Europe, en principe !
wsucram15 Added May 15, 2017 - 7:24pm
SEF.., George and MPP...There was a bust of Snowden in NYC (I think that was the location, its been awhile) and the police tore it down.  I saw the video.  It was a big ordeal...Ive protested for him and I believe he has sacrificed quite a bit.  But I am always the one to look at both sides.  He has some value to Putin...not sure what, but he has value. Lets see what happens now with Trump in office.
 
SEF- On music, Ive been listening to old stuff of late.  For some reason the Black Keys, Circa Brothers and ElCamino.  Oddly enough was listening to Buddy Holly the other day and Muddy Waters as well.
There was a release, (but I think I told you about this) of new Prince stuff for exactly 24 hours called Deliverance.  There is one full song which is outstanding, the rest is jams (which you would like) but not whole songs.
The estate blocked it..if you want it let me know and I will get it to you somehow.
My daughter  is getting ready to have her baby so I am super busy and hear music only in my car, which is ok but not the way to hear it.
Oh on the good side, my Grandson (who hates metal), likes Luzuli and Sigur Ros..go figure.   He and I have been road tripping quite a bit lately.  Im trying to get this kid into punk..not gonna happen, but my Granddaughter, Im going to teach her young!
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 1:02pm
Jeanne
 
Well......Putin has value to Trump too. It better be that way...
 
I dl'ed that Prince stuff, but.....nowhere near his regular stuff of the Nineties for my taste.
 
Luzuli....not Lazuli ?
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazuli
 
I quite like them...what's new ?
 
JPL (french)
Hemina
Big Wreck
Martigan
Soen
Pin Up went down (funny !!)
Mastodon
Gens de la lune
Belgian Fog
 
....all Progressive Rock
 
Blaenavon (Indie)
 
and an old one I discovered....but only THAT song. Sounds like George Harrison only better :-)
 
https://youtu.be/iQU7s3D_Pss
wsucram15 Added May 16, 2017 - 3:19pm
ok..I spelled it wrong..bust my ass and call me suzy! I wrote to them and asked them to come the the US. We'll see. I bought some of their stuff but its so expensive here.  I love "9 hands around the marimba."  I had to buy that live from the band.
Hey I was listening to Belgian Fog last night..how odd you mentioned them,Steve Rotherbeary and Fish.
wsucram15 Added May 16, 2017 - 3:22pm
I loved "I am, extended"   Very funky.  Remeber these arent finished songs and not ones he released.  It was still him and all him, every instrument.
 
wsucram15 Added May 16, 2017 - 3:42pm
Blaenavon (Indie)..and JPL are pretty decent.  I gotta find something new, Ill look these up more.
But I like Hemina alot, more my speed. I liked some of the guitar work on Big Wreck.
Martigan reminds me of a band long ago..I wonder who that is..but good.
Gens de la lune- I like these guys.. Singer and drummer decent but the rest of the band pulls the weight, at least live.
I know Mastodon...
Soen pretty good.
I liked this also..Pin Up went down, still looking at this.
wsucram15 Added May 16, 2017 - 4:16pm
Here you go-
Try Nova Collective, Coheed and Cambria (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJJ27NxYamY) makes most people love music again..., TOOL, Dream Theater, Alan Parsons,  and I still Like Queensryche(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfbNC1vTZRg)
I heard the band, New Model Army..not sure yet, but they have something...check them out.  This is one Im listening to now. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhFil34K_xI&list=PLq1IXv0bX5cZiGgQqCU6viJuSCRXpxm_K)  So far so good
Also I heard about "the Steams"..but have not listened to them in full yet, I listened to FEED, good band so far, I like the music.
Jeff Michka Added May 16, 2017 - 5:12pm
SEFa sez: First you create fear, and then you set up the laws......;-)- That was the drill in the States post 9/11.  Tom Ridge, dragged out every day to talk about all the threats about to descend on the US, most info obtained from waterboarding prisoners.  Then the need for a war to prevent any questions being asked or even raised, since it would be "unpatriotic" to do so, and it would mean "You don't support the troops."  Really? I got pulled over, basically for having a bumper sticker on my truck that said "Support the Dupes." Cop was all angry and swore up and down at me for it.  At that point I asked how fast was I going to not be able to have an opinion.  America, can be as F Zappa said, "...wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful...it really makes it.
wsucram15 Added May 16, 2017 - 5:41pm
Jeff..you have to know this is going to get much worse for most of us before it gets any better.
Jenifer Frost Added May 16, 2017 - 6:13pm
"...before it gets any better." When is that going to happen? After Elvis comes back maybe? 
wsucram15 Added May 16, 2017 - 6:40pm
Jenifer..I dont have a crystal ball but from the confrontation I have seen, Im going to say its going to get worse for most..perhaps you dont fall into that category.
Jenifer Frost Added May 16, 2017 - 7:46pm
If we get nuked as the neoliberals and neocons are pushing us towards it's going to get a LOT worse on all and never getting any better (hence the reference). 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 17, 2017 - 5:33am
Jeanne
 
I know them all except Nova Collective. I'll get back on that, thanks :-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 17, 2017 - 5:56am
Jenifer
 
I'm afraid you're right. Then, the last place where human life will exist, will probably be the place where it began - Africa....
wsucram15 Added May 17, 2017 - 12:42pm
Jenifer..Elvis is dead. WTH are you talking about?  Ignore neocons or liberals..this is a pissing contest.
My comment was not about global observations or those in the media.  Im talking about what I have seen in person, changes in policy towards citizens.  But in looking at my comment I can see where it could be taken another way. 
SEF..Im still working on some of the bands you sent,  on Nova Collective, this will take you to their bandcamp...https://novacollectivefusion.bandcamp.com/
its like jazz,..funk..and a kind of metal rolled into a tootsie roll. The band has members of between the buried and me, and haken
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 17, 2017 - 12:52pm
Jeanne
 
I DL their album. Sorry for being someone who doesn't pay for music, but a) I don't really have the cash, and b) I have no possibility to pay on Internet. But I put my music on the net for free too LOL
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 17, 2017 - 12:52pm
BTW: Haken....not really, but Between the Buried and Me are often really excellent !
John Minehan Added May 17, 2017 - 1:58pm
"I'm afraid you're right. Then, the last place where human life will exist, will probably be the place where it began - Africa...."
 
And survived the last time it almost became extinct.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 17, 2017 - 3:41pm
Wow. That almost confirms it !