the Four Million Dead at Auschwitz

I'm new here and I've spent some time this morning, reading articles and leaving some comments.

 

One thing I ran across is the Holocaust denier meme "the Four Million Dead at Auschwitz."  I've always been curious about this meme, it ignores certain historical facts.

1) The original plaque never specified who the victims were, it always said "people" and never "Jews."

2) The Poles and Soviets refused to separate their dead, all were "victims of Fascism" and treated as such.

3) In relation to Auschwitz the Soviets never mentioned Jews during the IMT.

4) This number was generally rejected (Four Million) by Gerald Reitlinger and Raul Hilberg, both of whom placed the number at around a million dead and actually specified this as mostly Jews who died.

5) At the time of his trial Rudolf Hoess {the Commandant of Auschwitz) placed the number much closer to one million, later research later confirmed this number.

 

So, the number is a red herring used by Holocaust deniers to refute the number of Jewish dead, the reality is that the "Four Million" never specified Jews to begin with.

Comments

Autumn Cote Added May 16, 2017 - 2:40pm
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Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 4:03pm
Six million, not four...
 
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=24369
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 4:05pm
But that's my only comment on this. We should forget that old shit and concentrate on how to avoid the coming killing of hundreds of millions in the coming war some are preparing for the profit (?) of a few loonies...
Leroy Added May 16, 2017 - 4:08pm
Who cares if it was 1 million or 4 million or 6 million or even 6 billion?  Is 1 million any less bad, less callous, less despicable?  What makes 1 million more acceptable?
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 4:12pm
It doesn't, of course.  Any number is bad but Holocaust deniers seek to minimize the suffering of Jews and others in order to make National Socialism a viable option.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 4:14pm
Leroy
 
It's the agenda that counts, not the figure. It will be the same in the next war. History will say (if there will be history) that some wanted global control and therefore the "free" Western countries had to defend themselves. Collateral damage, by whatever means.
 
We know better but our voices will be gone, and history will - again - be written in favor of the winners. Whoever was wrong or right.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 4:15pm
@Stone-Eater Friedli:
 
I'm always curious about the "previous Holocausts."  I think I've seen one for 1906.
 
Do you know what was going on at that time?
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 4:18pm
BTW: The layer of civilization is thin. And this accounts for any country and people, "god's chosen people" as well as "god's own country". Economics neatly covered by a layer of religion and self-righteousness.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 4:20pm
Jeffrey
 
No, I don't. Do you ? So - 1:1 LOL
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 4:21pm
BUT: There's economics at play, not emotions. Because emotions are the stuff that catches people. Then they don't ask FURTHER.
 
As seen today.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 4:22pm
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 4:23pm
As I said: concentrate on today. BTW: Who gives a fuck about the 1 million dead in Ruanda caused by the French ?
 
Think.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 4:25pm
A bit off topic, don't you think?
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 4:26pm
BTW: Sorry, forgot: The Ruandans are only Blacks, so no comparison with the chosen people. And while that happened only 20 years ago and there was no Nuremberg trial for them....
 
I better stop now. If not, I get too excited. Sorry ;-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 4:28pm
Last remark:
 
Off topic ? A Holocaust is a Holocaust. And there were MANY in human history, and there will be more. So ONE has not a special importance.
 
That's all....
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 4:31pm
Uh, no.  All life is sacred.  
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 16, 2017 - 4:36pm
 All life is sacred.
 
 
Hilarious.
 
You wouldn't know it to look around the planet. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 4:40pm
My personal belief that should be a universal one.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 4:42pm
Jeffrey
 
Can you explain what "sacred" means to you without mentioning a god ? That would be interesting !
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 4:44pm
Who said anything about God?
 
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 4:50pm
I asked about "sacred". And sacred has a direct relation to god (in German, my native tongue). That's why I'm asking.
 
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 16, 2017 - 4:51pm
sa·cred

ˈ/sākrəd/

adjective
 






connected with God (or the gods) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration.







Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 5:00pm
How about this:
The Rwandan Genocide was wrong, those people didn't deserve to die because of their ethnic identity. 
The same with the destruction of Europe's Jews, the ethnic cleansing of Bosnia, the Armenian Genocide, etc., etc.  
 
No one deserves to die because of their ethnic identity.
 
Better now?
I hope I've made myself clearer.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 5:01pm
I even did it without mentioning God.  Or Gods.  Or space aliens.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 5:10pm
Jeffry
 
Thanks.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 5:19pm
Jeffrey
 
The Rwandan Genocide was wrong, those people didn't deserve to die because of their ethnic identity. 
 
It had NOTHING to do with ethnicity. It had to do with colonial structure installed by the French, where a majority was marginalized. It had to do with Western propaganda bombing a mostly illiterate people with hate slogans.
 
And when people tell me ok, Africans are dumb anyway look at Yugoslavia were after Tito the same thing happened to white, apparently "educated" people which have been living together in peace before.
 
One person can be intelligent, but a mass is stupid. No matter which background. As I say, the layer of civilization is thin.
 
And every injustice will be paid back, just to be followed by another one sometime.
 
That's why we will never progress. We are our most enemy. Better believe it. If not, we'd be peacefully living together since we found out that we have a BRAIN.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 5:20pm
BTW: Jeffrey: When you want to know WHY and WHAT happens always ask first: Who profits ? That'll do for the most part.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 5:24pm
Any time.
 
I will, at some point, address the previous "Holocausts" of the Jewish people described in the link you provided.
 
But, to answer your question, yes, I do know what happened in 1906.  This was right after revolutions broke out in Russia.  I'll attach a link:
https://www.britannica.com/event/Russian-Revolution-of-1905
 
Pogroms broke out in Russia, threatening the lives of Jews there.  There were approximately 6 million Jews living in the Russian Empire, most of them situated in the Pale of Settlement.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 5:31pm
Jeffrey
 
I will, at some point, address the previous "Holocausts" of the Jewish people described in the link you provided.
 
I'm not coming back to that. I simply reply: 
 
And there were MANY in human history, and there will be more. So ONE has not a special importance.
 
The reminder of the past has never helped us to make the future better.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 16, 2017 - 5:36pm
BTW: Sorry, not against you. But we had SO many articles and discussions about that subject here already.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 5:37pm
Well, my interest is history.  If you read my posts you will see that.
Billy Roper Added May 16, 2017 - 7:22pm
Leroy, who cares? How about European governments which fine people and send them to prison for asking if perhaps less than six million Jews died, or how they died.
Billy Roper Added May 16, 2017 - 7:23pm
Why has the plaque been changed, downgraded, in number over and over again, but the overall number which is considered religious dogma remained the same?
Dino Manalis Added May 16, 2017 - 7:26pm
God Bless them and always remember them!
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 7:56pm
Your not paying attention, Billy.  Read what I posted again.  Later I will post more.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 8:30pm
@Billy Roper:
"Leroy, who cares? How about European governments which fine people and send them to prison for asking if perhaps less than six million Jews died, or how they died."
 
Perhaps?  Do you have an absolute number?  
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 9:47pm
So, what did the Soviets actually say about Auschwitz at Nuremberg?
 
"In only two camps of death the criminals exterminated 5 1/2 million people. In proof of this I quote the conclusions of the Extraordinary State Commission for Auschwitz. I will quote only a short excerpt. It is preceded by a detailed calculation. The Tribunal will find this reference on Page 356 of the document book, second column of the text, fourth paragraph. I begin the quotation:
"However, employing rectified coefficients for the part-time use of the crematorium ovens and for the periods when they stood empty, the technical expert commission has ascertained that during the period of time that the Auschwitz Camp existed the German butchers exterminated in this camp not less than 4 million citizens of the U.S.S.R., Poland, France, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Holland, Belgium, and other countries."
Not a word about Jews.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/02-19-46.asp
Jeff Michka Added May 16, 2017 - 11:15pm
Now, don't get Billly the Nazi all riled and not state the number appropriately dead.  Perhaps someone should ask WB's Adolf how many should have died.  I'm sure, not enough.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2017 - 11:21pm
I don't think Billy actually read anything I posted.
Bill Kamps Added May 17, 2017 - 9:01am
Jeffery, since close to 100 million died in the war in total ( estimates of course ), it doesnt matter a lot how many died in the German camps.  All sides had a hand in the killing, and to say that one side was worse because of their motives, or because they lost they war, or because they started the war, is all besides the point.  There arent "just" killings in a war and "unjust" killings, there is just killing.
 
At least in WWII the Allies knew what they wanted to end the war.  These days we go to war and we dont even know what we want for a result.  We go to war with "terrorists", and then say we wont negotiate with "terrorists".  Since all wars need a political solution, that means all wars end in negotiation.  If we say we wont negotiate then either there is no end, or we have to kill everyone on the other side.  Neither is a practical.
 
Sun Tzu tells us, we need to know the desired outcome before we start the war.  War is just another way to get a negotiated settlement on better terms.  If we dont know the desired outcome when we start, ie Iraq, Afghanistan, ISIS, etc, we should not start. 
 
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 17, 2017 - 9:09am
Bill, it's unlikely that 100 million people died in the war.  
 
It does matter.  There is a vast difference in dying in combat or being caught up in military action (civilians) and dying as part of a genocidal action.  We also cannot forget the 2 million Soviet POWs that died between the Summer of 1941 and the Spring of 1942 or the disabled that the Nazi regime also murdered simply for being disabled.
 
No one denies that many people died in the war.  I do this because there are people out there that deny a percentage of those that did die their rightful due.
Billy Roper Added May 17, 2017 - 11:59am
Yes, I read your post. I would agree that Jews should not be counted as people. When the Communists first occupied Auschwitz and built the "gas chambers" there, after the war, they also tried to inflate the numbers of people who have died there. Whether the plaque says that the total four million original number noted were Jews, that 4 million number is what is used to come up with the six million which people in Europe are prosecuted and imprisoned for questioning. So, the red herring is used by Holohoax and Shoah business promoters, through their false claim that six million Jews (counting the 4 million total dead first claimed at Auschwitz) were snowflaked. I don't know how many Jews died during World War II, and neither do you. The Red Cross estimate was about a quarter million, most of them from Typhus. But if you say less than six million in many countries, you're going to jail. That's how desperate they are to keep up the charade.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 17, 2017 - 1:08pm
@ Billy Roper:
"Yes, I read your post. I would agree that Jews should not be counted as people."
 
Oh, really?  Why not?
 
"When the Communists first occupied Auschwitz and built the "gas chambers" there, after the war,"
 
Actually, only Krema I was restored.  The Soviets and Poles left II-V and Bunkers I & II in the state the Germans left them in.  The Germans blew up these structures before they left the camp.
 
"they also tried to inflate the numbers of people who have died there."
 
They didn't "try," they did.  The Soviets falsely assumed that Auschwitz started killing people earlier than it actually did. You can read the link and what I posted to see how they came up with the numbers.
 
"Whether the plaque says that the total four million original number noted were Jews, that 4 million number is what is used to come up with the six million"
 
Oh, I'm sorry boyo but you are wrong.  Nuremberg established that four million Jews died in the camp system AS A WHOLE, not just Auschwitz:
 
"Thus, in this period of three years, according to the records of the then Governor General of Occupied Poland, between 2,400,000 and 3,400,000 Jews had been eliminated.
The total number of Jews who died by Nazi hands can never be definitely ascertained, It is known, however, that 4 million Jews died in concentration camps, and that 2 million Jews were killed by the state police in the East, making a total of 6 million murdered Jews. The source of these figures in Adolph Eichmann, Chief of the Jewish section of the Gestapo. The figures are contained in an affidavit made by Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl, Deputy Group Leader of the Foreign Section of the Security Section, AMT VI, of the RSHA. Hoettl, in his affidavit, states as follows:
"Approximately 4 million Jews had been killed in the various concentration camps, while an additional 2 million met death in other ways, the major part of which were shot by operational squads of the Security Police during the campaign against Russia."(2738-PS)."
 
This is what Nuremberg established as the number of Jewish dead at Auschwitz as a whole from 1942-1944:
 
"An official United States government report issued by the Executive Office of the president of the United States, War Refugee Board, on the German camps at Auschwitz and Birkenau, sets forth the number of Jews gassed in Birkenau in the two year period between April 1942 and April 1944. The figure printed in this report is not a typographical error. The number is 1,765,000. (L-22)"
 
That's too high based upon later research but it's still less than the "4 million" that deniers slobber on about.
 
Here's the link:
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/chap_12.asp
 
Nuremberg also established an actual number of about 5.75 million dead but for some reason I can't find the link.  In any case the origin of the "six million" is Hoettl's statement.  The reality is that historians differ over the numbers, myself I think the total is around 5.5 million.
 
"which people in Europe are prosecuted and imprisoned for questioning."
 
Actual it's more about "hate speech" (the way I understand it) than numbers.  Myself, I disagree with "memory laws."  I say let nut jobs howl away in the void and don't give them publicity.
I've actually signed petitions requesting such laws be abolished.
 
BTW, do you feel the same about laws that criminalize Holdomor Denial or Armenian Genocide denial?  Or does it only piss you off when it's about dead Nazis?
 
"So, the red herring is used by Holohoax and Shoah business promoters, through their false claim that six million Jews (counting the 4 million total dead first claimed at Auschwitz) were snowflaked."
 
Aaawww, I'm sorry but you are still wrong. Read what I posted above.  BTW, the biggest snowflakes I see are Trump supporters and whiny Republicans.  Just sayin'.
 
"I don't know how many Jews died during World War II, and neither do you."
 
I've got a better idea than you do.  Obviously.
 
"The Red Cross estimate was about a quarter million, most of them from Typhus."
 
I actually answered this on a different thread but I'll answer again.  Those numbers are incomplete and only deal with deaths that took place in regular concentration camps.  The Nazis never allowed the Red Cross into the Polish Ghettos (though they did allow them into Terezin, the model ghetto established in Czechoslovakia.  They only allowed them in after a suitable cleanup that included deporting the
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 17, 2017 - 1:12pm
Cont....
old and sick to places like Birkenau and Treblinka), Birkenau, the Action Reinhard Camps or Chelmno.  No Red Cross monitored the activities of the Einsatzgruppen, Order Police, SS Cavalry or their proxies that shot millions of Jews on the Eastern Front.
 
@Billy Roper Continued...
"But if you say less than six million in many countries, you're going to jail. That's how desperate they are to keep up the charade."
 
Who is....THEY?????
 
LOL
Are you one of those deniers that learn all of their history from YouTube?  That's sad.
Bill Kamps Added May 17, 2017 - 4:41pm
Jeffery, to me there is a minor distinction between civilians caught up in a bombing campaign, the 80K who died in Hiroshima, and the ones sent to concentration camps.  A lot of the bombing was done with the knowledge that it had little military benefit, and was more a psych thing. To me it is a fairly thin moral distinction because we claim the bombing was necessary, while the concentration camps more obviously were not.
 
Fortunately none of it would be tolerated today.  The killing in the Mideast is at a tiny scale compared to WWII. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 17, 2017 - 4:48pm
I disagree with you, Bill.  The fact is that bombing has a military application, deliberately attempting to destroy an entire people does not.  The allies were not out to commit genocide against the German people.
 
Now, because of Pearl Harbor and the way the Japanese treated POWs and civilians made the war in the Pacific more personal to the US troops but there was no genocidal attempt (regardless of the rhetoric) to wipe out the Japanese to the last man, woman and child.
Jeff Michka Added May 17, 2017 - 9:01pm
Jeffrey K asks: Or does it only piss you off when it's about dead Nazis?- Billy cries over the dead in Dresden and Hamburg, raging at the cruelty of it all.  One of the WB Nazis, pursuing the same claims and outrage, actually tried to suggest the Londom Blitz was clever "revenge" for bombing Dresden and Hamburg,  You know, using a Third Riech wonder weapon, the "vengence time machine" so you can have event in 1940-41, occurring in 1945, etc.  Odd how tears are never shed for those that died in London, Coventry, or in the V* attacks later in WWII.  The WB nazis live for raw dogma only and all those "poor German white people."
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 17, 2017 - 9:08pm
They also never want to talk about the Nazi terror bombings in Poland in 1939, the terror bombings of Yugoslavia in 1941 and the wild partisan hunts in the USSR that killed millions.
Poor misunderstood Nazis.  I've noticed that most Holocaust deniers are pretty gutless as well.  Let's see if Billy will come and discuss the subject.
Jeff Michka Added May 17, 2017 - 11:31pm
Jeffrey K asks: Are you one of those deniers that learn all of their history from YouTube?  That's sad.- Billy the Nazi is a declared Nazi with all the trappings.  He might, but wouldn't count on it.-and- They also never want to talk about the Nazi terror bombings in Poland in 1939, the terror bombings of Yugoslavia in 1941-or about bombing Rotterdam flat.  It was, of course, all well-planned by those marvels in the Third Reich.  Same old bilge.  God bless Arthur Harris and US 8th AF. Ever hear about those antinazi protests in Dresden or Hamburg that should have "spared them?"  Yeah those poor Germans had ran them all out...riiight.
Shane Laing Added May 18, 2017 - 3:14am
Jeffrey Kelly.  Here in the UK to deny the Holocaust itself is regarded as anti-Semitic therefore a criminal offence not the numbers specifically. I do believe this is part of the generally accepted definition of anti-Semitic as adopted by the UN. Not sure best to check. Anyhow war is war and each side will do whatever it has to by whatever method it thinks best to win. to quote WT Sherman War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.
Doug Plumb Added May 18, 2017 - 11:43am
re "I do believe this is part of the generally accepted definition of anti-Semitic as adopted by the UN."
  So what ! The UN is a political organization that works in the interest of the banks, not in the interest of truth. Who cares what they think.
  Antisemitic means you are against the Jews. Its obvious. To deny the holocaust happened is to be on the side of truth and truth works in everyone's interest except those who own and operate the UN.
  People gotta stop being believers. Trust in God, everyone else, bring evidence.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 18, 2017 - 12:38pm
@ Doug Plumb:
"Antisemitic means you are against the Jews. Its obvious."
 
No, Doug.  This is the definition of antisemitic:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-Semitic
 
"To deny the holocaust happened is to be on the side of truth"
 
Is that an alternate fact?  I guess that would be Trump approved.
Actually, Holocaust deniers are on the side of a lie.  There are many reasons why deniers believe the way they do, antisemitism, Hitler-hero-worship, blind belief in any whackaloon conspiracy theory they can gravitate to (I've seen lots of deniers who are also 9-11 "truthers" and so forth), etc.  It's sort of sad, I don't really understand it but there you go.
 
"and truth works in everyone's interest except those who own and operate the UN."
 
M'kay.

"People gotta stop being believers. Trust in God, everyone else, bring evidence."
 
It's funny that you should request evidence.  What evidence could you possibly accept?  What evidence to back your beliefs do you posses?  
Jeff Michka Added May 18, 2017 - 1:11pm
Plumb Doug not only is a holocaust denier, but also believes the moon landings were fake, too.  Doug makes Alex Jones look sane, so he is just a world-class revisionist and member of the WB gentleman's anti-semite club. Hitler-hero-worship, probably not.  That is the realm of others here.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 18, 2017 - 1:28pm
Jeffrey
 
The same source shows "semites" as follows:
 
a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs
 
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Semite
 
Well....so Arabs and Jews are the same. They should the fuck get along ;-)
 
Think....
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 18, 2017 - 1:39pm
LOL
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 18, 2017 - 1:41pm
LOL for both
Jeff Michka Added May 18, 2017 - 3:17pm
Jeffrey K notes: Well....so Arabs and Jews are the same. They should the fuck get along ;-)- Can't disagree there.  "The Cousins." lol
 
Billy Roper Added May 18, 2017 - 3:57pm
Ashkenazi Jews are not Semites, but the Palestinians are. Therefore, the rabid hook-nosed Zionists are anti-Semites. Actually, the term now means "anyone whom the Jews don't like". LOL
Billy Roper Added May 18, 2017 - 3:58pm
The Nuremburg "trials" used physical torture to get fake "confessions". It was a show trial of the victors to justify turning over half of Europe to Communism.
Billy Roper Added May 18, 2017 - 3:58pm
However many Jews died during W.W. II, looking at their control over the news and entertainment industry and banking today, the only correct answer is, "not enough".
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 18, 2017 - 4:47pm
"Ashkenazi Jews are not Semites, but the Palestinians are. Therefore, the rabid hook-nosed Zionists are anti-Semites. Actually, the term now means "anyone whom the Jews don't like". LOL"
 
Hey, Billy, if Jews are so easy to spot with their hook-noses, why did the Germans have to stick yellow stars on them?
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 18, 2017 - 4:49pm
"The Nuremburg "trials" used physical torture to get fake "confessions". "
 
Sure they did.  Am I going to hear about crushed testicles now?
 
"It was a show trial of the victors to justify turning over half of Europe to Communism."
 
Uh, have you never heard of the Cold War?
 
See, the problem is that Billy only gets his history from YouTube.  Like all deniers.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 18, 2017 - 4:52pm
Billy also advocates a genocide he claims didn't happen.
 
Hey, Billy, why don't you just be an honest little denier and admit it happened?  Then you can tell us that Hitler was right and you wished he'd whacked every Jew on earth.
Jeff Michka Added May 18, 2017 - 7:18pm
Jeffrey K sez: Then you can tell us that Hitler was right and you wished he'd whacked every Jew on earth.- He did, Jeffrey: However many Jews died during W.W. II, looking at their control over the news and entertainment industry and banking today, the only correct answer is, "not enough".- Seems clear, his views, however contrary and hypocritical.  It's the Nazism all have grown to love, and "tolerate."
Billy Roper Added May 19, 2017 - 8:49am
The only thing I know about history, I learned from Youtube? Sure, let's compare academic credentials. Where did you do your postgraduate degree work in History?
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 19, 2017 - 9:00am
Me?  I've got a Bachelors in history.  My interest continued after school so I've continued reading and studying the subject.  My interest is in European history, particularly 20th century European history.  I've studied Nazi Germany and the historical event known as the Holocaust for about six years now.
Billy Roper Added May 19, 2017 - 9:02am
A Bachelor's? LOL. Okay. I have a Master's in History with a specialty in Anthropology, and have devoted my whole life to this. You're a neophyte.
Billy Roper Added May 19, 2017 - 9:05am
If it's an historical event, why is it not open to research, discussion, or debate? Nobody goes to jail for suggesting that perhaps only 25 million Whites were killed by Stalin's policies, rather than thirty million. I guess Shoah business is more disciplined than their branch they called (((Blshevism))) ever was. I think we probably need a few more myths about grandpa lampshade and grandma soap, that'll shut up the goyim.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 19, 2017 - 9:25am
"A Bachelor's? LOL. Okay. I have a Master's in History with a specialty in Anthropology, and have devoted my whole life to this. You're a neophyte."
 
You should get your your money back.  It's obvious you haven't learned shit.
I've studied history for over 30 years.  You are the neophyte.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 19, 2017 - 9:33am
"If it's an historical event, why is it not open to research, discussion, or debate?"
 
It is open to research, discussion and debate.  I've seen historians do all of the above.  
 
"Nobody goes to jail for suggesting that perhaps only 25 million Whites were killed by Stalin's policies, rather than thirty million."
 
But, you can go to jail for denying the Holdomor and the Armenian Genocide.  Are you upset about that?
 
"I guess Shoah business is more disciplined than their branch they called (((Blshevism))) ever was."
 
It's Bolshevism.  You should try and get your money back on that Masters, I think they would've taught you how to spell it.
what is this ((()))?
 
"I think we probably need a few more myths about grandpa lampshade and grandma soap, that'll shut up the goyim."
 
Soap was manufactured in small quantities, a rumor of widespread manufactured soap spread around but it simply was not true.  
How do lampshades and soap have anything to do with the Holocaust?
I'm surprised you didn't mention shrunken heads.  That's a denier favorite.   Are you not feeling well?
Ari Silverstein Added May 19, 2017 - 9:19pm
Why spend one minute of your time refuting or debating a Holocaust Denier?  As if it really matters the exact amount of dead Jews was some other number than 6 million. Even if the images of the gas chambers could we wiped away, one can read almost any speech by Hitler to realize how something like the Holocaust could happen.  Or just visit any Holocaust museum.  Billy Roper should be ignored, by giving him any of your time, you're simply feeding the beast.
John G Added May 19, 2017 - 10:00pm
Why spend one minute of your time refuting or debating a Holocaust Denier? 
I agree. But we should apply the same standard to your islamophobic zionist drivel too.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 19, 2017 - 11:40pm
@Ari Silverstein:
"Why spend one minute of your time refuting or debating a Holocaust Denier? As if it really matters the exact amount of dead Jews was some other number than 6 million. Even if the images of the gas chambers could we wiped away, one can read almost any speech by Hitler to realize how something like the Holocaust could happen. Or just visit any Holocaust museum. Billy Roper should be ignored, by giving him any of your time, you're simply feeding the beast."
 
All the above is true.  However, I find it offensive that creatures like Billy spread their vileness about the Internet.  Why should he...and others like him.....be free to spread their crap with no rebuttal?
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 19, 2017 - 11:42pm
@ John G.
"Why spend one minute of your time refuting or debating a Holocaust Denier?
I agree. But we should apply the same standard to your islamophobic zionist drivel too."
 
Extremists of any stripe piss me off.  I don't care if the offender is Christian, Muslim, Jew or otherwise.
John G Added May 19, 2017 - 11:58pm
Yes, Billy and Ari are vile creatures both.
Utpal Patel Added May 20, 2017 - 6:03am
@ Jeffrey
“However, I find it offensive that creatures like Billy spread their vileness about the Internet.
 
You should be pretty angry with Autumn/this website for providing Billy and others to spread their vile message.
Billy Roper Added May 20, 2017 - 9:12am
Yeah, Free Speech sucks, right? That's why Jews try to pass laws against it, especially when it comes to discussing the Holohoax myth.
John Minehan Added May 20, 2017 - 12:20pm
It's interesting to me that the Holocaust and the mass civilian bombing of the Second World War both rested on theories, that were largely untested: Hitler's racial theory; and Douhet's  theories on strategic bombing.
 
Lack of empathy makes sociopaths and often government policy.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 20, 2017 - 1:09pm
Lack of empathy makes sociopaths and often government policy.
 
Yep. And sociopaths are not the ones who are interested in the world. Rather in themselves....and that's what makes them so ignorant. Trump will probably do his holiday tour without too many problems, but he will returned having learned nada.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 20, 2017 - 1:10pm
return not returned. Damn typos. Should read before post....
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 20, 2017 - 1:41pm
@Utpal Patel
"You should be pretty angry with Autumn/this website for providing Billy and others to spread their vile message."
 
No, I'm not.  Autumn is providing a platform for others to write what they wish.  That is the beauty of free speech.  I've already voiced my opposition to "memory laws."
What I'm saying is that Billy's laughable assertions (and others like him) need to be answered, not ignored.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 20, 2017 - 1:43pm
@ Billy Roper
"Yeah, Free Speech sucks, right? That's why Jews try to pass laws against it, especially when it comes to discussing the Holohoax myth."
 
I'm all for free speech, Billy.  Even your ridiculous version of it.
John G Added May 21, 2017 - 2:38am
Just don't mention the genocide that the US has unleashed on Iraq.
That tends to get their gander up.
Even while Libya, Syria, Somalia and Yemen are ongoing US genocidal operations.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 21, 2017 - 2:49am
OK.  If it makes you feel better to believe the above then I won't argue with you.
John Minehan Added May 21, 2017 - 6:49am
"Just don't mention the genocide that the US has unleashed on Iraq.
That tends to get their gander up.
Even while Libya, Syria, Somalia and Yemen are ongoing US genocidal operations."
 
Worse than  genocide: ineffective and counterproductive.
Billy Roper Added May 21, 2017 - 1:06pm
I also oppose the genocidal attacks which the United States carries out against Middle Eastern nations, nor do I flinch away from WHY it is done: to balkanize and weaken Israel's neighbors and make Greater Israel possible. Syria's destruction will give (((them))) the Golan Heights, for example. Countdown until Trump puckers up against the wailing wall...5,4,3,2,1...
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 21, 2017 - 1:13pm
Billy, I'm still waiting for you to join me here:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewforum.php?f=39
 
I'd also like you to tell me what your YouTube stuff is under.  Is it listed under your name or something else?
Oh, I'll have another posting about denier memes when I get a chance.
Billy Roper Added May 21, 2017 - 1:16pm
I don't have any interest in debating with Jews and their Shabbos Goy unless there is an audience which might benefit from witnessing their destruction, and an absence of censorship. Your forum lacks either. I also am too busy to take on another sandbox, sorry.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 21, 2017 - 1:21pm
@Billy Roper:
"I don't have any interest in debating with Jews and their Shabbos Goy unless there is an audience which might benefit from witnessing their destruction, and an absence of censorship. Your forum lacks either. I also am too busy to take on another sandbox, sorry."
 
Translation:
I lack the ability to coherently argue my version of history because I understood I have no arguments to make, I have no evidence of my own and I'm afraid of I'll get my ass handed to me.
Typical denier.  You lack the courage of your convictions.  Sad but true.
 
Ah well.  You haven't shown me anything anyway.  You are probably not worth it.
 
But, I'll talk more about denier memes when I get a minute or two.
Billy Roper Added May 21, 2017 - 1:21pm
Billy Roper Added May 21, 2017 - 1:22pm
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 21, 2017 - 1:24pm
Why should I continue with you, gutless?  It's obvious you lack the balls to coherently argue your version of history.
 
Sad.  Your hero, ol' Adolf, would be so disappointed in you.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 21, 2017 - 1:25pm
Still gutless.
Billy Roper Added May 21, 2017 - 1:28pm
If they're there, I'll play. Of course, I know you just don't want to have a debate in an uncensored format, with an audience which isn't made up entirely of other Jews and Shabbos Goy. Why are you so opposed to Writer Beat? Autumn worked very hard to create this free speech discussion format for us to use.
Billy Roper Added May 21, 2017 - 1:30pm
You do admit that the Auschwitz Director admitted that the execution gas chamber there was also a hoax, right?
 
http://www.rense.com/general53/aauz.htm
Billy Roper Added May 21, 2017 - 1:31pm
I'm so sad that your favorite book didn't get published.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/books/29hoax.html
Billy Roper Added May 21, 2017 - 1:32pm
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 21, 2017 - 1:36pm
"If they're there, I'll play."
 
Translation:
I don't feel comfortable stepping out of my comfort zone because I honestly can't argue with any evidence of my own.
 
"Of course, I know you just don't want to have a debate in an uncensored format, with an audience which isn't made up entirely of other Jews and Shabbos Goy."
 
LOL
Billy, all you have to do is leave the offensive crap behind.  Argue with your evidence, not with the racist filth.  You can do that, right?  Or, is all you have is racist filth?  That shows a lack of intelligence along with a depressing ignorance of history.
 
"Why are you so opposed to Writer Beat? Autumn worked very hard to create this free speech discussion format for us to use."
 
I'm not.  But, it would be good to have some fresh voices on Skeptic.  
 
Billy, I post regularly on denier forums and blogs.  Why?  Because I'm not afraid.  Are you?  Seems like it.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 21, 2017 - 1:40pm
@Billy Roper:
"You do admit that the Auschwitz Director admitted that the execution gas chamber there was also a hoax, right?"
 
Actually, fail on your part, Billy.  The director stated that Krema I was a reproduction, not a hoax.
Is that the best you got?  Nizkor debunked Cole's crap in the 90's.
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-04.html
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 21, 2017 - 1:41pm
Rense is hysterical.  Not as funny as Whale but still funny.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 21, 2017 - 1:44pm
Billy thinks by posting survivor silliness he is going to throw me off.
 
LOL
 
Guess what, Billy?  I've never read a survivor memoir and I have no intention of doing so.  Witnesses are only a small part of the equation.
Peter Corey Added May 21, 2017 - 6:05pm
>Six million, not four...
 
Six million (approximately) during the entire course of the extermination program. The four million number was a Soviet estimate (an incorrect one) of the number killed only at Auschwitz.
John G Added May 22, 2017 - 2:38am


Jeffrey Kelly 



OK.  If it makes you feel better to believe the above then I won't argue with you.
I don't know what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that the USA isn't committing genocide in the MENA?
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 22, 2017 - 3:01am
Are you saying that they are?
Billy Roper Added May 22, 2017 - 7:39am
I don't fuss with Jews and Shabbos Goy where there's no audience and no free speech. Unless you want to come onto StormFront. I bet there'd be more free speech for you, there, cuck.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 22, 2017 - 10:49am
@ Billy Roper:
"I don't fuss with Jews and Shabbos Goy where there's no audience and no free speech."
 
I get it, Billy.  You have no grasp of the history involved and don't want to embarrass yourself.  Got it.
 
"Unless you want to come onto StormFront."
 
I once saw a Stormfront poster wonder why archeologists were digging into the ground to find the foundations of the gas chambers at Sobibor.  I laughed my ass off.
 
 
I bet there'd be more free speech for you, there, cuck.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 22, 2017 - 10:51am
Cont....
"I bet there'd be more free speech for you there, cuck"
 
Aaaaawwww, Billy called me a cuck.  Whatever shall this poor sheeple do?
LOL
Billy Roper Added May 23, 2017 - 11:07am
Probably, you'll go suck a circumcised dick, like usual.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 23, 2017 - 11:17am
Ah, how typical of an ignorant Holocaust denier.  
Billy, if you think that juvenile crap upsets me, think again.
What it does show me is that you have an exceedingly piss-poor knowledge of the history involved.  If you knew anything or had evidence of your own you would join Skeptics and provide it.  Or, do it here.
What's the matter, Billy?  Too afraid?
 
LOL
Jeff Michka Added May 23, 2017 - 10:47pm
Jeffrey Kelly writes: Ah, how typical of an ignorant Holocaust denier.  
Billy, if you think that juvenile crap upsets me, think again.-That sort of stuff is hauled out when you've "got" Billy, of course, by Billy. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 23, 2017 - 11:06pm
Of course.  Billy has no arguments, no evidence.
Doug Plumb Added May 30, 2017 - 9:43pm
The very fact that you go to jail for denying the holocaust means that the pro holocaust people would rather lock people up than debate them. I don't understand how this point can be lost on some people.
  I don't understand how people can be so bad at math. So many holocaust survivors all over. I've met maybe five and I don't get out much. One million holocaust survivors in the 70's still alive means about 5 million in the fifties.
  4.5 million Jews in Poland 300 K in Germany, 6 million get killed then millions of survivors get billions in reparations - the only group that gets reparations from genocide.
  You don't need a "masters" in fuck -all to do basic arithmetic.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 30, 2017 - 10:02pm
@Doug Plumb:
"The very fact that you go to jail for denying the holocaust means that the pro holocaust people would rather lock people up than debate them."
 
Doug, how many days have you spent incarcerated for your beliefs?
I'm going to go out on a limb and say none.
I don't want people like you to go to prison, Doug.  I've signed a number of petitions stating my opposition to so-called "memory laws."  My opinion is that you (or others like you) should be allowed to speak...so that the world can see how ridiculous you are.
 
"I don't understand how this point can be lost on some people."
 
It's actually irrelevant but I'll let you continue.
 
"I don't understand how people can be so bad at math. So many holocaust survivors all over. I've met maybe five and I don't get out much. One million holocaust survivors in the 70's still alive means about 5 million in the fifties."
 
Where did most of the Jews in the world live before the war, Doug?
Oh, I'd like to see some proof of "five million" survivors, Doug.  You can do that however you like, break it down by year, decade, whatever.
 
"4.5 million Jews in Poland"
 
Wrong, Doug.  There were about 3.3 million Jews in Poland before the war, about 3 million died (give or take).
 
"300 K in Germany,"
 
Wrong, Doug.  About 160,000 German Jews died during the war, give or take.  Going by memory there were about 300,000 left before the war started.
Are you saying 300,000 died?  That's not clear.
 
"6 million get killed then millions of survivors get billions in reparations"
 
Doug, please break down the amount of reparations paid out to Jewish survivors. You can do a total amount, break that down by year or by decade.  However you want.
 
"- the only group that gets reparations from genocide."
 
Are you saying the Germans only paid out money to Jews?
 
"You don't need a "masters" in fuck -all to do basic arithmetic."
 
I'm honestly not sure what your point is. You rambled, why don't you address some of my questions, that should help.
Doug Plumb Added May 31, 2017 - 6:55am
I'm not saying I don't know how many. I do not know how many quarters are in my change jar but I'm sure its less than 6 million.
  As far as your population records go, it depends on who is considered to be Jewish in the count. I've seen old records that say about 3 million, others have said around 4.5 million.
  re "Doug, please break down the amount of reparations paid out to Jewish survivors. You can do a total amount, break that down by year or by decade.  However you want."
  One nuclear sub bought and paid for by Germany. One trillion dollars there. Every pycheque CRA (Canada criminal agency) takes a bit out for holocaust survivors, its a small amount but there are 7 or 8 million people who get payed and have "taxes" taken out of their paycheques.
  My point is that they lock people up for raising questions about the holocaust there fore they are hiding something. This is the logic that a six year old can understand.This is incredibly strong circumstantial evidence for the hiding of something...what could it be ? Follow the money and we learn.
  Our governments are not noble defenders of truth, they are satanists, child molesters and do human sacrifices. Many of them are sick and you can't punish the sick members of the establishment, even if you have witnesses. You can't lay charges. I'm not going to get into that, your knowledge of law would be far too limited to look at what I say with anything but increduluity and cognitive dissonance. An attorney is not the same thing as a lawyer - good place to start. You read history, I read law and philosophy.
Doug Plumb Added May 31, 2017 - 6:57am
re "It's actually irrelevant but I'll let you continue."
 
So if you are a cop and you pull someone over and they say its OK to search your trunk and suitcases but specifically tell you not to look in one odd looking case you do not get suspicious?
Doug Plumb Added May 31, 2017 - 6:59am
The evidence for historical events is best uncovered with logic and evidence, not what is in history books or is on TV.
Doug Plumb Added May 31, 2017 - 7:00am
re "Are you saying the Germans only paid out money to Jews?"
 
I'm saying we Canadians pay Jews for the holocaust.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 31, 2017 - 8:48am
@Doug Plumb:
"I'm not saying I don't know how many. I do not know how many quarters are in my change jar but I'm sure its less than 6 million."
But what do you base that on?
"As far as your population records go, it depends on who is considered to be Jewish in the count. I've seen old records that say about 3 million, others have said around 4.5 million."
Doug, be specific, tell me what countries you are talking about and if you are talking about the dead or survivors.
re "Doug, please break down the amount of reparations paid out to Jewish survivors. You can do a total amount, break that down by year or by decade. However you want."
"One nuclear sub bought and paid for by Germany. One trillion dollars there."
Huh? When was this and what are you basing that information on?
"Every pycheque CRA (Canada criminal agency) takes a bit out for holocaust survivors, its a small amount but there are 7 or 8 million people who get payed and have "taxes" taken out of their paycheques."
7 or 8 million survivors living in CANADA???????
"My point is that they lock people up for raising questions about the holocaust there fore they are hiding something."
No, the point of those laws is to prevent the spread of what is considered a dangerous ideology. The problem is the interpretation.
Doug, there are also laws against denying the Holdomor, the Armenian Genocide and the crimes of Communists in formerly occupied countries.
What do you think they are trying to hide with those laws?
"This is the logic that a six year old can understand."
Uh, no. Doug, the issue is you are trying to deny something you know nothing about.
"This is incredibly strong circumstantial evidence for the hiding of something...what could it be ?"
Why don't you take some time and research the subject?
"Follow the money and we learn."
That's nice, a sound bite.
"Our governments are not noble defenders of truth, they are satanists, child molesters and do human sacrifices."
Oh, goodness, I've got a live one.
"Many of them are sick and you can't punish the sick members of the establishment, even if you have witnesses. You can't lay charges."
M'kay.
"I'm not going to get into that, your knowledge of law would be far too limited to look at what I say with anything but increduluity and cognitive dissonance."
You know, I'm a pretty sharp fellow. Why don't you try me? When I get lost I'll let you know.
"An attorney is not the same thing as a lawyer - good place to start. You read history, I read law and philosophy."
That's nice. Hey, Doug? Why don't we start with this:
http://www.australien.diplo.de/contentblob/4132642/Daten/3641852/NSEntschaedigung.pdf
That's an article on compensation. Why don't you read that?
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 31, 2017 - 8:49am
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 31, 2017 - 8:50am
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 31, 2017 - 8:51am
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 31, 2017 - 8:52am
All of those deal with reparations.
 
Read those over and get back to me.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 31, 2017 - 9:02am
@Doug Plumb:
"The evidence for historical events is best uncovered with logic and evidence, not what is in history books or is on TV."
 
Is that so?
Really?
OK.
How about this:
The Germans deported 152,000 Jews to the Death Camp at Chelmno in two stages, the first stage took place between December of 1941 until March of 1943, the second stage took place in the Summer of 1944 with the final deportations ending in July.
The first stage included about 145,000 Jews, the second, 7,000.
 
Now, history records that the Jews died in gas vans, this was the first camp that primarily murdered Jews, its victims were Jews of the Warthgau.  The number also included Roma (or gypsies).  
 
So, logically, if you don't believe this, where is your evidence that proves otherwise?  Keep in mind that this is 152,000 people total, many of whom were children, women and the elderly (the Germans considered them to be "useless mouths," food was always an issue and the Germans tried to balance labor and the availability of food).
 
I'll be eagerly awaiting what your "logic" says about this situation.
Jeff Michka Added May 31, 2017 - 10:43am
Billy the Nazi sez: Jeff Michka, a withered up old wannabe woods nigger who has been accused of molestation, apparently is also anti-Semitic, in that he denies that Jews are a race. So sad.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 31, 2017 - 10:47am
I'm waiting for Doug to lay some logic on me.
Doug Plumb Added May 31, 2017 - 11:52am
Where did you get these numbers ? Who published them ? Which numbers are correct - my numbers that prove it was impossible, taken from photos of old population records or yours which are from...???
 
The thing is this: No one is allowed to look closely at the evidence and discuss it without going to jail. This proves that they are probably lying. That is the logic.
 
You don't get this because you have warped your own mind in a way to believe things you are told, just as a contortionist may contort their body to fit in a box. Do this all the time and your body will become twisted and unable to do all the ordinary things.
  I learned this from a book called "Political Ponerology". Also there is Jacques Ellul's book on propaganda which is very good. You either do not know the effects of propaganda and how powerful they are or believe yourself immune. The truth is that I believe myself to be immune. I'm am not exceptional in any way, and there is no correlation to this immunity and intelligence or position in society. The rate is about 8% and their thinking cannot be warped.
Yours is. When I point out this damning fact about holocaust deniers being persecuted. Money provides the motive to stand with this circumstantial evidence.
  The burden of proof is on you, not me. That is some more logic. If you or any of the pro holocausters had proven your case it wouldn't be against the law to question it. The facts would be well known and not contested.
Doug Plumb Added May 31, 2017 - 11:59am
re "What do you think they are trying to hide with those laws?"
 
Of course because they are trying top hide truth. Truth does not fear the light.
  Our governments, media and education systems are not paradigms for truth telling in case you haven't noticed.
  Please be less angry with your replies, read what I say a couple of times before responding. There is no place for anger in a rational discussion. There are 7 or 8 million paycheque collecting Canadians who pay Jews for the holocaust and are made to feel guilty if they don't. They pay by default.
Doug Plumb Added May 31, 2017 - 12:01pm
Please don't use the Nuremberg Tribunals as proof. Tribunals are not courts of law or reason or logic.
Doug Plumb Added May 31, 2017 - 12:05pm
Me: "I'm not saying I don't know how many. I do not know how many quarters are in my change jar but I'm sure its less than 6 million."
 
Your response:
"But what do you base that on?"
 
6 million quarters is 1.5 million dollars. I'd have a new keyboard if I had 1.5 million dollars.
Doug Plumb Added May 31, 2017 - 12:11pm
re "target="_blank">http://www.claimscon.org/forms/allocations/Summary%20of%20Major%20Holocaust%20Compensation%20Programs.pdf "
 
There is a least one payment missing on there. Its the little bit that Canadians pay as part of their "income" "tax" that goes toward reparations. I know this from talking with one of the heads of CRA in his office, that I had to go through security to get into. And there is that Nuclear sub from Germany...
  If you had any idea the scale for which you are being lied to, you would know why I put quotations around income and tax in the previous sentence.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 31, 2017 - 1:00pm
@Doug Plumb
"Where did you get these numbers ? Who published them ? Which numbers are correct - my numbers that prove it was impossible, taken from photos of old population records or yours which are from...???"
 
From German records:
"

1. Evacuation of Jews from Baden and the Palatinate to France . . .
6,504 Jews
2. Evacuation of Jews from Reich territory including the Protectorate and the district Bialystok to the East . . . . . . . .
170,642 Jews
3. Evacuation of Jews from Reich territory and the Protectorate to Theresienstadt. . . .
87,193 Jews
4. Transportation of Jews from the eastern Provinces to the Russian East: . . . . . . . . .
1,449,692 Jews
the following numbers transited through the camps in the General Government . . . .
1,274,166 Jews
through the camps in the Warthegau . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
145,301 Jews
5. Evacuation from other countries, namely:
France (the part occupied prior to November 10, 1942) . . . . . . . .
41, 911 Jews
Netherlands . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
38,571 Jews
Belgium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
16,886 Jews
Norway . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
532 Jews
Slovakia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
56, 691 Jews
Croatia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
4,927 Jews
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Evacuation overall (incl. Theresienstadt
and incl. special treatment) . . . . . . . . . .
1,873,549 Jews
excluding Theresienstadt . . . . . . . . . . . . .
1,786,356 Jews
6. To which is added according to the information of the Reich Security Main Office the evacuation of . . . . . .
in the Russian territories including the former Baltic countries since the beginning of the eastern campaign.
633,300 Jews
 
The above numbers do not include the inmates of the ghettos and concentration camps.
 
http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/docpage.cfm?docpage_id=2479
 
That document includes all Jews "transited" through December 31st, 1942.
 
The other numbers I got are from the "Lodz Ghetto Chronicle" quoted in "Chelmno and the Holocaust."  I have the Chronicle, I just haven't read it yet.
 
 
 
"The thing is this: No one is allowed to look closely at the evidence and discuss it without going to jail. This proves that they are probably lying. That is the logic."
 
Doug, I have other documents.  All of this, or most of it, is on-line.  I've looked at it for years, including denier stuff.  None of them are in jail, I debate deniers all the time.  You don't know what you are talking about.
Your "logic" fails on the face of it.  This is your problem, you don't know anything about the history so you can't debate this with me.

"You don't get this because you have warped your own mind in a way to believe things you are told, just as a contortionist may contort their body to fit in a box. Do this all the time and your body will become twisted and unable to do all the ordinary things."
 
No, what I've done is look at both sides. Holocaust denial fails the test because it cannot logically prove explain what happened during the war.
 

"I learned this from a book called "Political Ponerology". Also there is Jacques Ellul's book on propaganda which is very good. You either do not know the effects of propaganda and how powerful they are or believe yourself immune."
 
I'm getting more and more amused.
 
"The truth is that I believe myself to be immune."
 
Because of the size of your tin foil hat?
 
"I'm am not exceptional in any way, and there is no correlation to this immunity and intelligence or position in society. The rate is about 8% and their thinking cannot be warped."
 
M'kay.

"Yours is. When I point out this damning fact about holocaust deniers being persecuted. Money provides the motive to stand with this circumstantial evidence."
 
Uh-huh.
 

"The burden of proof is on you, not me."
 
Deniers always say that.  What it means is that they cannot refute history.  How sad.
What happened to the Jews sent to Chelmno, Doug?
 
 
"That is some more logic. If you or any of the pro holocausters had proven your case it wouldn't be against the law to question it. The facts would be well known and not contested."
 
Here is logic.  It is an undisputed FACT that 152,000 Jews went to Chel
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 31, 2017 - 1:01pm
Chelmno.  Deniers say that they didn't die.  What happened to them?
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 31, 2017 - 1:04pm
@Doug Plumb:
"re "target="_blank">http://www.claimscon.org/forms/allocations/Summary%20of%20Major%20Holocaust%20Compensation%20Programs.pdf "

"There is a least one payment missing on there. Its the little bit that Canadians pay as part of their "income" "tax" that goes toward reparations. I know this from talking with one of the heads of CRA in his office, that I had to go through security to get into."
 
I need proof, I'm not taking your word.
 
"And there is that Nuclear sub from Germany..."
 
How much was that submarine worth?  Proof, now.
 

"If you had any idea the scale for which you are being lied to, you would know why I put quotations around income and tax in the previous sentence."
 
I think you are lying to me.  Proof, please.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 31, 2017 - 1:13pm
@Doug Plumb
"re "What do you think they are trying to hide with those laws?"

"Of course because they are trying top hide truth. Truth does not fear the light."
 
Really?  What about laws that criminalize Holdomor Denial, Armenian Genocide Denial and laws criminalizing the denial of Communist crimes?  Are those laws trying to hide some sort of truth?
 

"Our governments, media and education systems are not paradigms for truth telling in case you haven't noticed.
Please be less angry with your replies, read what I say a couple of times before responding."
 
I have.  
 
"There is no place for anger in a rational discussion."
 
What about proof?  Is there place for proof?  Do you have any?  What happened to the Jews sent to Chelmno?
 
 
"There are 7 or 8 million paycheque collecting Canadians who pay Jews for the holocaust and are made to feel guilty if they don't. They pay by default."
 
 
Proof, please.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 31, 2017 - 1:15pm
@Doug Plumb:
"Please don't use the Nuremberg Tribunals as proof. Tribunals are not courts of law or reason or logic."
 
LOL
 
What about other criminal trials?
Doug Plumb Added Jun 1, 2017 - 6:13am
The only way to have a court case that gets to truth is to have an unbiased jury and rules from English Jurisprudence. But we will be losing that and this will be replaced by Tribunals. It will be a burden of the accused to prove innocence.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 1, 2017 - 6:17am
re "Proof please."
 
I know this from asking the Revenue agency for income tax, they don't advertise it but you can call them and ask about it. You can call the IRS and ask how much of your pay goes to reparations. The German nuclear sub was in the news.
  I don't think you are interested in truth, you are interested in winning.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 1, 2017 - 6:21am
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-newest-sub-leaves-germany-bound-for-haifa/
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 1, 2017 - 8:52am
@ Doug Plumb:
 
Um, Doug?  The Israelis paid for that sub, the Germans didn't give them that sub as part of a reparations agreement.
 
From your article:
"The INS Rahav cost Israel a reported $2 billion (NIS 8 billion), but the Navy officer was loath to discuss its price."
 
So, this was a normal transaction between two states.  The US, Germany, France, etc. sell arms all of the time.  Nothing mysterious or diabolical about that.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 1, 2017 - 8:57am
@Doug Plumb:
"I know this from asking the Revenue agency for income tax, they don't advertise it but you can call them and ask about it."
 
So, the Canadian IRS (or whatever you call it) will take a call from an American citizen regarding this issue?
Uh-huh.
Why don't you just give me link for the policy?
 
"You can call the IRS and ask how much of your pay goes to reparations."
 
Uh-huh.
 
 
"The German nuclear sub was in the news."
 
The Israelis bought that sub, the Germans didn't give it to them.  That was from your article.

"I don't think you are interested in truth, you are interested in winning."
 
No, what I'm interested in is proof.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 1, 2017 - 9:02pm
Wrt holocaust reparation payments you can just type that phrase into Google and get the government web sites.
 
re "The Israelis bought that sub, the Germans didn't give it to them.  That was from your article."
 
Like the other ones you mean ?
 
re "will take a call from an American citizen regarding this issue?
Uh-huh.
Why don't you just give me link for the policy?"
 
The IRS will answer any questions that you have. Its a cousin the the Canadian one, German one, French one, etc.
 
But you can  learn about how easy it is to get holocaust reparation payments from gov from the website for it for USA, Canada, etc. Just use the search term above.
 
I'm not doing link searches for you.
 
Doug Plumb Added Jun 1, 2017 - 9:03pm
re "From your article:
"The INS Rahav cost Israel a reported $2 billion (NIS 8 billion), but the Navy officer was loath to discuss its price."
 
So, this was a normal transaction between two states.  The US, Germany, France, etc. sell arms all of the time.  Nothing mysterious or diabolical about that. "
 
Read the actual article.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 1, 2017 - 9:26pm
I did, Doug.
 
Is this the bit that bothers you?
 
"The price tag, seen by some as exorbitant, of the Rahav was offset by a considerable discount from Berlin that is rooted in a contentious 1953 reparations agreement between Germany and Israel for the Holocaust."
 
What of it?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 1, 2017 - 9:28pm
@Doug Plumb:
"Wrt holocaust reparation payments you can just type that phrase into Google and get the government web sites.

re "The Israelis bought that sub, the Germans didn't give it to them. That was from your article."

Like the other ones you mean ?

re "will take a call from an American citizen regarding this issue?
Uh-huh.
Why don't you just give me link for the policy?"

The IRS will answer any questions that you have. Its a cousin the the Canadian one, German one, French one, etc.

But you can learn about how easy it is to get holocaust reparation payments from gov from the website for it for USA, Canada, etc. Just use the search term above.

I'm not doing link searches for you."
 
No, this is your point.  You make it.  I want all of your proof.
 
Oh, BTW, what happened to the Jews sent to Chelmno?
 
Doug Plumb Added Jun 2, 2017 - 6:52pm
re "Why don't you just give me link for the policy?"
 
Really? That would be a library of books. Why don't you just pick up the phone ? I've done it and confirmed almost everything I know with CRA agents.
 
re "Oh, BTW, what happened to the Jews sent to Chelmno?"
 
I don't know, maybe this 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 2, 2017 - 7:05pm
"Really? That would be a library of books. Why don't you just pick up the phone ? I've done it and confirmed almost everything I know with CRA agents."
 
Why should I go through the effort?  Your point, you prove it.

re "Oh, BTW, what happened to the Jews sent to Chelmno?"

"I don't know, maybe this"
 
LOL
Doug, did you actually watch the video?
 
Are you saying that the Jews from Chelmno wound up in places like Buchenwald?
 
Now, from August of 1944 when the Lodz Ghetto was liquidated they did send transports to Auschwitz....but not before then.
 
Doug, your problem is twofold:
 
1) You don't know what you are talking about in regards to the history involved. You flat out admit this, yet, for some reason you believe you can make judgments about what happened.
2) You just showed me a silly denier video that didn't even prove your point, meaning that what history you do know comes YouTube.
 
Never learn history from YouTube, Doug.
Peter Corey Added Jun 6, 2017 - 11:43pm
>Ashkenazi Jews are not Semites, but the Palestinians are.
 
"Semite" and "Semitic" refer to a linguistic group, not a racial or ethnic one.
 
"Palestinians" — as a distinct people — never existed for the simple reason that there has never in history been a distinct nation, state, or kingdom called "Palestine." The word appears nowhere in the Hebrew Bible or the Koran. The concept of "The Palestinian People" was a modern 20th century invention promoted by anti-Israel Arabs such as terrorist Yasser Arafat. The honest Arab academics and intellectuals freely admit that there is no such nation, state, or kingdom called Palestine, and there has never been a distinct "Palestinian people." I've quoted many of them on this issue in past threads.
 
As for racial heritage, both Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews have very similar genetic makeup. See:
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews
"Studies of autosomal DNA, which look at the entire DNA mixture, show that Jewish populations have tended to form relatively closely related groups in independent communities, with most in a community sharing significant ancestry. For populations of the Jewish diaspora, the genetic composition of Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi Jewish populations show a significant amounts of shared Middle Eastern ancestry.[1][2][3][4] According to Behar and colleagues (2010), this is "consistent with the historical formulation theories the Jewish people as descending from ancient Hebrew and Israelites of the Levant" and "the dispersion of the people of ancient Israel throughout the Old World"[5]
 
"A study conducted in 2013 found no evidence of a Khazar origin for Ashkenazi Jews and suggested that "Ashkenazi Jews share the greatest genetic ancestry with other Jewish populations, and among non-Jewish populations, with groups from Europe and the Middle East. No particular similarity of Ashkenazi Jews with populations from the Caucasus is evident, particularly with the populations that most closely represent the Khazar region. In this view, analysis of Ashkenazi Jews together with a large sample from the region of the Khazar Khaganate would corroborate earlier results that Ashkenazi Jews derive their ancestry primarily from populations of the Middle East and Europe, that they possess considerable shared ancestry with other Jewish populations, and that there is no indication of a significant genetic contribution either from within or from north of the Caucasus region."[15]"
 
You're a fountain of misinformation, Silly Doper. And on this issue, even your misinformation is sadly out of date.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 9, 2017 - 1:52pm
The very best stuff on YouTube is about Billy the Nazi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGhDYlbk5Pg&feature=youtu.be

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