The Deep State Strikes Back

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The "Deep State" is a newly minted term to describe the resistance of unelected bureaucrats to the promise by President Trump to "drain the swamp".  As daily headlines scream to us about the latest horrible thing President Trump is alleged to have done, we should not be drawn into "he said, she said" arguments, but instead should be looking at the larger implications of massive leaks within our intelligence community.

 

President Obama spent three months on vacation, and now is back.  Hillary spent months "in the woods" and has now declared herself to be "part of the resistance".   Conservative Republicans (think John McCain) are taking their own potshots at our President as well.   Think about it; is it really a coincidence that we are being subjected at this time to a systematic daily campaign of alleged controversy concerning President Trump?

 

Where are our intelligence services on the acts of Treason represented in all of these leaks?  The fact that they are missing in action tells me that the intelligence services themselves are aiding the Deep State to attempt to overthrow the election of our President.

 

Regardless of whether we like President Trump or not, we should be chilled by the thought of unelected bureaucrats attempting to overthrow ANY President.  

 

 It is becoming apparent President Trump cannot drain the swamp on his own.  It is time for the President to create a third major political party based on the Constitution and reduction in Federal powers in favor of the States.  With a third party, he will empower his supporters to help change the power structure of two-party corruption in Washington DC.  

 

Comments

Tubularsock Added May 16, 2017 - 10:38pm
Norton, the term “Deep State” is not a “newly minted term”. But it may be a new term to you so welcome to America.
Trump going to “drain the swamp” by filling the swamp with a pack of ignoramuses may be new however.
The reason Trump has “. . . daily headlines scream(ing) to us about the latest horrible thing President Trump is alleged to have done . . .” is really very simple.
The man has NO CLUE of what he is doing.
It is obvious to Tubularsock that you are a fan of this President. And to each their own poison. But if you want to blame Trump’s incompetence on the “Deep State” and by doing so not face the stark reality that running the country is NOT a reality TV show then go right ahead.
However as destructive as the Deep State has been to this country it will not go easily in to that goodnight!
It will take way more than a new political party. It will take civil war. And that ain’t going to happen because “the football/baseball games are on tonight”!
The Deep State HAS ALREADY overthrown Trump as it did Obummer and Shrub. When it comes to continuing ALL the wars we’ve started throughout the world and the continued relinquishing our Constitutional rights you can start to see the pattern.
Now Tubularsock is not interested in an argument. You can believe whatever makes you comfortable. Most Americans do. But REAL CHANGE will have to take REAL ACTION and that is not in the cards for America-The-Asleep.
Thanks Norman.
Utpal Patel Added May 17, 2017 - 1:23am
“Regardless of whether we like President Trump or not, we should be chilled by the thought of unelected bureaucrats attempting to overthrow ANY President.” 
 
We should be chilled by the thought that unelected people not be permitted to speak their mind.  None of these people are attempting to “overthrow” Trump, but it’s well within their right as Americans to try and get Trump impeached. 
Norton Louis Added May 17, 2017 - 2:12am
Utpal.  Think about The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire.....and countless other governments over the years.  Julius Ceaser received knives in the back from his government and closest associates for his troubles.  If you think that the US Deep State and the Shadow State (intelligence services) have the best interests of the American Constitution and Government in mind, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you!  It's about protecting the power and money structures that Trump would disrupt by leading a populist revolt of the People.
 
Tubular Sock....I hate to say it, but you might be right about apathy winning the day in America.  Trump has given some of us a glimmer of hope....though the leviathan of the State and Media is quickly proving to be more than up to the task of eliminating this disruption of  status quo.
 
One day Phoenix may rise from the ashes of this great experiment of individual rights embodies in the US Consitituion.....or we may soil our collective nest on this planet to the extent we destroy ourselves.  Time will tell.  In the interim, I cling to hope that we elected a true outsider to President, and that it matters. 
John G Added May 17, 2017 - 2:27am
The "Deep State" is a newly minted term to describe the resistance of unelected bureaucrats to the promise by President Trump to "drain the swamp".
Errrm, no. That's just completely wrong. It isn't a new term and the deep state doesn't consist of bureaucrats.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 17, 2017 - 6:56am
TS
 
That's the impression we have here in Europe too. At least, some of us. But not enough to drive the US deep state (NATO in our case) out of our region....
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 17, 2017 - 7:54am
Henry Bowman's solution seems more rational every day. Don't ask, look it up and read the last 200 pages. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 17, 2017 - 12:25pm
Jeffry
 
Got some more on that guy ? There's a few out there...
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 17, 2017 - 12:31pm
LOL, Ok Stone :) 
 
Unintended Consequences by John Ross. 
 
Here
Norton Louis Added May 17, 2017 - 12:43pm
"Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence."   Thomas Jefferson
 
Norton Louis Added May 17, 2017 - 12:48pm
“I hold it that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people, which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions, as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.”   Thomas Jefferson
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 17, 2017 - 1:02pm
Jeffry
 
Thanks.
Autumn Cote Added May 17, 2017 - 1:29pm
Please note, the second best way to draw more attention to your work is to comment on the work of others. I know this to be true because if you do, I'll do everything in my power to draw more attention to your articles.
 
PS - There is a lot I can do and would like to do on your behalf. For example, this article was written by an author deserved of some feedback.
Dino Manalis Added May 17, 2017 - 4:06pm
Unelected bureaucrats are supposed to serve the White House and the nation.  When the president's competence or lack thereof becomes an issue, other government institutions have an opportunity to intervene to safeguard the system.  The White House has to reassure everyone things are under control and prove it.  That's why I feel Newt Gingrich should manage the White House, while Condoleezza Rice ought to be part of Trump's inner circle.  It would bring officialdom to the White House!
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 17, 2017 - 4:22pm
Dino
 
Rice ? You seem not to notice that WOMEN in politics are the worst. See Thatcher and Clinton. Their emotions lead to fatal decisions. I don't say that we don't need emotions, but when you look at history, women can be extremely shortsighted and cruel when it comes to war.
 
Remember the story about the daughter of Trump: Oh, these poor children in Syria. Let's bomb those bad bad people ? Whether that's true or not: Emotions provoke war, they do not prevent it.
 
Mike Haluska Added May 17, 2017 - 4:47pm
The "Deep State" grows angrier and angrier precisely because President Trump refuses to cower and bend like all previous politicians have.  The problem for the Deep State is that President Trump is NOT a politician - worst case scenario he leaves office and goes back to playing golf at Mar a Lago.  More than that, President Trump relishes the fight and will put it to the "Deep State" and Mainstream Media like never before. 
 
All of the hysteria will eventually fade because in the end the Republicans want to retain power and they have the votes and support outside of NYC, DC & LA to make that happen - as was proven during the last election.  Their days are numbered - they know it - and they are terrified because of it. 
 
I have NO DOUBT that attempts will be made on Trump's life that will be aided and abetted by "Deep State" psychopaths.  The "Progressives" never could win anything or pass anything on its merit alone - it ALWAYS requires corrupt politicians and judges.  The SCOTUS is due for a drastic house cleaning over the next 4 years, as well as the 20 Democratic Senators from Red States.  In the end, the "Progressives" will have led the once great Democratic Party to the "Ash Heap of History".  Just like the USSR, they will eventually collapse under the weight of their own evil.    
Mike Haluska Added May 17, 2017 - 4:51pm
Tubular - keep telling yourself that President Trump doesn't know what he is doing.  In the end you'll be wondering why the Democratic Party is so marginalized that they will be starving for attention like the Mainstream Media. 
Norton Louis Added May 17, 2017 - 5:03pm
Mike agreed on everything you said........one thing to also consider is that as the media and Deep State accellerate their war on Trump, the more damage they do to their cover.  Thinking people like yourself see these increasing attacks for what they are and rather than being a deterrent, they are a call to action to resist & reset our government to rule of law by the People.
 
President Trump does his best work when he is opposed.  Like you, I can't wait to see what he does next to take it to the Deep State.  I hope they don't assassinate him, but admit it's a very real possibility.
Norton Louis Added May 17, 2017 - 5:57pm
Stone.....While any political organization is potentially a tool of the Deep State, NATO is a voluntary alliance of nations for the purpose of mutual protection to which any member nation may withdraw at any time.  It simply requires an act of will by the populace of any given NATO member nation to elect representatives that reflect their will to withdraw.
 
In the mean time, it would be nice if NATO nations payed the 2% of GDP as agreed for their member-protection.  President Trump has been vocal on this issue.
Bill Caciene Added May 17, 2017 - 7:04pm
As I’m sure you know, while Trump's campaign was under investigation by the FBI, he fired the head of the FBI.  But that’s just the latest in a series of controversial actions by Trump.  
 
To be sure, the Swamp needs to be drained, but the list of people to be flushed should have nothing to do with criticism of Trump.  Furthermore, Trump has no right to drain the swamp of people elected into office, he does have an obligation to drain the swamp of anyone that works for the Federal Government and is not providing the taxpayers a value for his or her services.  In other words, just about everyone needs to be fired.   
Norton Louis Added May 17, 2017 - 7:21pm
Bill.....appreciate your comment and agree with it in principal.  I look at Comey, particularly his public angst over the Hillary investigation while testifying in Congress shortly before his termination and think he needed to be fired....but terrible optics regarding timing as you say.
 
It seems to me Comey is as much of a victim of corruption as a perpetrator of bad management.  He was shoved into the deep end of the pool with a very bad, very public recommendation not to prosecute Hillary as a result of his boss (Lynch) being compromised and recusing herself (meeting with Clinton on an airport Tarmac under secretive conditions).  Everything that has happened to Comey to erode confidence in him has derived from that original sin.
 
Government corruption is not party-specific, which further clouds the Comey issue.  It will be interesting to see if the recently announced special prosecutor pursues any rabbit trails of illegality that lead to Obama and/or Clinton.
wsucram15 Added May 17, 2017 - 7:34pm
Mike, who is getting angrier and angrier?
I see the press putting on a good bit of pressure but its because people on both sides (perhaps not in deep red states) want some answers.
I see controversy after controversy and a constant state of defense. I dont understand why, people are entitled to dislike your choice of President.  
The rest  of the country had to listen to conservatives drone on about Obama and Clinton for 8 years and watch her investigated I dont even know how many time during her career. Im not saying it didnt need done..but now its your turn. Over half the voting public  do not trust Trump, give them the benefit of doubt and let this play out.
This cannot go on like this, the state of the nation as far as democracy goes is in flux.   You are entitled to your opinions about how stupid the rest of America is, except for you guys.
But let people investigate Trump and Russia, if there is nothing to hide, then so be it, he will be exonerated as was Clinton.  We wasted what 100 million on Clinton..now its Trumps turn at bat.   But good lord, let it happen and lets move on.
Tubularsock Added May 17, 2017 - 8:07pm
Mike Haluska, Tubularsock isn’t telling himself that Trump doesn’t know what he is doing. That is wide open and plain to see if one looks. This is not political for Tubularsock. Obummer and Killery were not and are not my favorite people.
Tubularsock is interested in a country that leads by example not bombs for control.
And putting Trump in office and having him curtail worker safety regulation to make it more dangerous on the job. To curtail protection of drinking water and air standards so we are poised in our own communities. That to Tubularsock is not only stupid but insane.
The sad part is that people really don’t pay attention when the other guy’s wife gets her hand cut off in the cannery because of lax safety standards. But when it hits your own home then there is the outcry of “how’d this happen”?
Trump, like Killery does not provide good leadership. They are in their own rich bubble and are out to just make themselves and their friends richer. And fuck over the rest of us!
Trump is already using his position to make money for his businesses and unless you are a close buddy of the guy you and I will just be paying our taxes to help him build his next exclusive golf club.
George N Romey Added May 17, 2017 - 8:29pm
I agree that Trump and HRC are one in the same except she is a bit more polished.  Trump is done.  The far right no matter what they say want him out and Pence in.  The Democrats are banging the boards along with the far righties. I'd give Trump until July 4 as the latest.
 
Then the neocons and corporatists will be in pig heaven with Pence.  No issue starting wars and destroying what's left of the middle class to benefit the corporations and Wall Street.
 
I'll just watch it all one day soon fall down as America becomes the home of the poor and desperate.  I'll probably die along with the millions more.  The corporatists will go off to their far flung islands and stash of hard assets to wait out the apocalypse.  The dumb ones will lose all of their paper wealth and join the paupers. 
Norton Louis Added May 17, 2017 - 9:18pm
Wsucram15......100 million dollars you quote is a small price to pay to maintain confidence in our justice system......just as the cost of skipping an oil change should not be a consideration in maintaining a car.  
 
It's important to remember too that the name "Clinton" could refer to one of two people.  While most think of Bill Climton in connection to Special Prosectors (Ken Starr),  it is important to note that with the most recent appointment of Mueller to investigate Russian influence on the US Presidential election and "related matters" this could also give Hillary her time under the magnifying glass.  I think most thinking people, whether Left or Right recognize the Clintons both operate in the shadows when it comes to legality, power and influence.    To the Democrats I say, "be careful what you wish for, because you might get it".  
Barry aka. Hyperminde Added May 18, 2017 - 1:23am
RE: "Investigations"
 
So the Deep State has "Investigations" ... I guess some people believe that the Deep State will find ALL Inappropriate and Corrupt actions by the Deep State and then prosecute the Deep State to full extent of the law.
 
It would be nice if more people recognized "Show Trials" (like the Stalinist Show Trials). When an "Investigation" is on TV and Politicians do the "Investigating" to SHOW how they are so wise, and benevolent, and NEVER Self-Serving ... then it's a Show Trial.
Barry aka. Hyperminde Added May 18, 2017 - 1:35am
PS - It is VERY Certain that Seth Rich (a DNC Staffer) LEAKED Democrat Emails ... which "EVERYONE" Claims were "Hacked by Russians."
 
Why does the FBI keep "searching" for the Russian link to "Hacked Email" when CLEARLY Emails were Leaked by a DNC Staffer with IT access.
 
Why is it that NO ONE in the Media has reported:
 
The FBI discovered that DNC Staffer Seth Rich leaked as many as 40,000 emails which were very negative toward the Hillary Clinton campaign.... In completely UNRELATED News, DNC Staffer Seth Rich was later MURDERED on the streets of DC.
George N Romey Added May 18, 2017 - 6:57am
Because big media is bought and paid for the by the Democratic Party cabal unless its Fox and they are bought by the parent company the Republican Party.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 18, 2017 - 7:55am
Why does the FBI keep "searching" for the Russian link to "Hacked Email" when CLEARLY Emails were Leaked by a DNC Staffer with IT access.
 
Because the FBI (Feral Baby Incinerators) was created and still acts as a tool of political repression. 
Paul Austin Murphy Added May 18, 2017 - 10:52am

A distinction has to be made between those people who're actively - though openly! - campaigning and working against Trump and those actually in the Deep State. I believe both exist. I suppose those in the Deep State are actually within the Government; or at least within the state. Thus, in and of itself, it can't be said that Obama and Clinton are part of the Deep State. However, they'll know many in the Deep State and they'll effect it in various and many ways from the outside.
 
It'll also depend what you class as the state and the government. Here is the U.K. it's ironically the Left which has always stressed the political power of civil servants. Civil servants keep their jobs when the government changes – at least in the U.K. There was even a well-known BBC comedy serious called “Yes Minister” in which the sole subject was civil servants controlling and subverting the power of the government; though not the state.
 
How wide is the Deep State? Gramscians would include professors, teachers, journalists, political activists, lawyers, etc. as having a role in either subverting the government or backing it up (if the government is Leftist!). Indeed a politician called McDonald, here is England, admitted that he's a Gramscian and said that he joined the Labour Party to make it more communist and revolutionary in nature. He could be in Government come June the 9th.
 
I said Gramsci; though Americans should read Saul Alinsky.
 
 
 
Paul Austin Murphy Added May 18, 2017 - 11:02am

Where are our intelligence services on the acts of Treason represented in all of these leaks? The fact that they are missing in action tells me that the intelligence services themselves are aiding the Deep State to attempt to overthrow the election of our President.”
 
The intelligence services, surely, aren't “aiding the Deep State”. They are part of it!
 
Sorry to bring up England again. I'm not surprised at all that nowadays large parts of the state are Democrat and thus anti-Trump. Here is the U.K., the police chiefs - not the rank and file! - are now all Oxbridge graduates who study things like “community cohesion” and “embracing diversity”. They pass on these Marxist teachings to the rank and file in the police. That means that the British police take a politically-correct - and sometimes downright leftwing - position on most issues.
 
Exactly the same is true of U.K. lawyers and the judiciary – especially of lawyers!
 
Norton Louis Added May 18, 2017 - 11:16am
Appreciate the last two comments from across the pond.  It's a good reminder that problems regarding subversion of State are not limited to just one country.  If you accept the Deep State premise in the US, then it is logical to extend this premise across the world.
 
Saul Alinsky recommends how to wage war to further a Progressive agenda.  It's increasingly hard to ignore we are at war  throughout the world.  If we don't start fighting back against anti- nationalist forces, we sre in a real danger of losing our identities as countries, our economies and our way of life.
Mike Haluska Added May 18, 2017 - 12:26pm
Norton - your commentary is spot on.  When you look at the profile of many Deep State  Federal employees, you see lots of people who couldn't find a job in the private sector or couldn't cope with a private sector job.  They have college degrees from expensive private schools but majored in essentially unmarketable majors. 
 
The prospect of Trump cleaning house and getting rid of the majority of the useless bureaucracy terrifies them.  This is not simply a difference in ideology - these people are finally seeing what it's like to be a steelworker, coal miner, auto worker, tradesman looking over your shoulder for the next layoff or plant closing.  Their over-reaching regulations, excessive taxation, red tape, permits to take a bowel movement, etc. chased many industries out of this country and now the people are seeing a chance to dish it out to them. 
Norton Louis Added May 18, 2017 - 1:07pm
Mike agreed.  You make a compelling case for rank and file bureaucrats to aid in Deep State, anti-nationalistic efforts.  What drives the Deep State leaders, however?  To Georges point, personal enrichment is a major factor.  However, I believe there is a larger "mission" that drives deep state leaders- a mission that allows them to sleep well at night.  They are attempting to steward humanity as a whole.  Exporting a large chunk of our economy to Asia may have been viewed as a cheaper form of diplomacy than potentially fighting a third (nuclear) world war.  Eliminating borders and nationalism may be viewed  by Deep State thought leaders as what is best for for a human race overall when looking at resource allocation.  Humanity is, after all, increasing in population exponentially in spite of regional slowing trends of population growth in first world countries.
 
 Exponential population increases that place demand on finite resources is destined to end in only one place; scarcity, conflict, famine & death.  (see my article on big oil).  The Deep State may be attempting to prepare for this time.
 
I believe this is why Obama took so many anti-US positions.  If you  accept my premise, Obama then viewed himself as President of humanity, and therefore felt justified in policies that dragged the US down while elevating other countries, the environment etc.
 
The Deep State/Progressive view is anti-Darwinist.    If you believe in American exceptionalism, you are then an enemy of the Deep State.
 
Now that the human race has the ability to destroy itself many times over, it's difficult to compeletely discount Deep State doctrine.  However, if the human race is going to reach a population explosion tipping point, I think that I'd rather get there with the US still on top economically instead of being reduced to an equal level of starvation with the rest of of the planet........this is why Trump is such a Deep State target no doubt.
 
To Georges point, Deep State thinkers can literally afford to hold anti-nationalist views as they stock their private islands against a time when population growth outstrips resources.
John G Added May 18, 2017 - 2:41pm
The deep state has no Marxist leanings whatsoever. It exists to maintain the capitalist order.
British police are as right wing as it gets.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 18, 2017 - 3:26pm
The deep state is a global state by now... not even a state. It's a deep global network.
Norton Louis Added May 18, 2017 - 3:33pm
John....I make no claim that the Deep State is Marxist......merely pointing out the possible underlying factors affecting their calculus when eroding nationalism in first world countries.  Capitalism is as much a tool to be used by Deep Statists as any other political governing system.....and with increasing automation, AI and other changes rapidly coming our way, capitalists may hold similar objectives as the Deep State when seeking ways not to be overthrown by an increasingly poorer populace in coming years.    
I am not familiar with British police.....though your point may be correct that UK police the rank and file may be right wing, based on the comment by Paul he singles out their leadership that is increasingly the problem.  I find that believable. 
Norton Louis Added May 18, 2017 - 4:11pm
Stone....agreed on the Deep State appearing to have World-wide roots.  Question, if you were suddenly made emperor of the world, how would you deal with the planet's population explosion, species extinctions, resource depletion, etc. and still serve the billions of souls In a fair and equable manner?  
 
In an effort to address these questions (and enrich themselves in the process - think Al Gore) the Deep State is increasingly attempting to change the world to the detriment of first-world nations.
 
We must first recognize we are in a war to keep our countries and way of life intact, then commit to fight these forces that would tear them down.
 
Ian Thorpe Added May 18, 2017 - 4:23pm
Norton, good stuff. In the third book of Steig Larssen's Millennium trilogy, The Girl Who Kicked A Hornet's nest, we get to the thing the previous two books have been building up to, a nationalist clique within Swedish state security, which had been influencing foreign policy for decades. The premise seemed very believable so after reading the book I contacted a former colleague in Sweden whose wife worked in TV news and asked the question. Christel told me that a couple of years before the first book had been written there had been rumours of a massive scandal involving state security. It was covered up and never leaked out to the news industry (as is the way in Sweden) - well it's a socialist utopia, nothing bad happens there) but government ministers and senior civil servants suddenly resigned and the national security agency was reconfigured.
Could it be happening in the USA, a much bigger country than Sweden? Recently I read a novel by Barry Eisler, title The God's Eye, which is set against a background of NSA surveillance, institutional paranoia and Washington inter - agency politics. That too seemed very plausible.
John G Added May 19, 2017 - 1:17am
Norton Louis Added May 18, 2017 - 3:33pm
That's just gobbledegook.
You don't have a clue about the subject.
Ian Thorpe Added May 19, 2017 - 9:14am
Norton, you ask a little way back up the thread, " What drives the Deep State leaders, however?"
How about a craving for power, the most addictive thing known to humanity. Cut pure power with self righteousness and you have the model for the 'deep state' mindset
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 19, 2017 - 11:20am
Norton
 
NATO is a voluntary alliance of nations for the purpose of mutual protection to which any member nation may withdraw at any time
 
NATO is not a voluntary alliance, we were told it was one against the "threat of communism" about 30-40 years ago. Which was a lie even then anyway. I mean: Is it ANY business of a Western state if Russia or China are communist (not that communism exists(ed) in reality anyway) ? It's NOT.
 
It was their decision whatever they choosed and we got fuck all in this !
 
The majority of Europeans which follow different news channels and the net for years have found out that NATO is no more than a hegemonist economics club. Defense ?
 
Hah. Ever heard of the Genscher/Kohl-Gorbachev pact ? NATO does nothing else than to provoke war for economic interests labeled as "justice, freedom and democracy for all".
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 19, 2017 - 11:24am
BTW: The deep state and NATO are the same. Together with the corporations, high finance and so-called international organisations like the IMF/World Bank/WEF/UN and those ignorant "think tanks" which don't think but as all others follow orders. They exist to give these crimes a legitime approach.
 
Look who sits in those gremiums and who finances it. You will get to the same handful or crooks.
 
From Kissinger to Brzezinski to Goldman Sachs and the like, and back to the newcomers like - Macron. The new French "president". A pupil of the deep state.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 19, 2017 - 11:31am
Question, if you were suddenly made emperor of the world, how would you deal with the planet's population explosion, species extinctions, resource depletion, etc. and still serve the billions of souls In a fair and equable manner?  
 
1. Remove amygdala in human brain, or restrict it.
2. Try to get people back to basics and empathy, material wealth is NOT the essence of life.
3. Try to trade and deal FAIRLY with all nations, and accept cultural and religious differences.
4. Create jobs, don't exploit. The better off and educated people are, the less they will blindly follow leaders and ideologies. And they will produce less children. Seen in Europe.
5. Accept that no nation has a right to LEAD the planet.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 19, 2017 - 11:33am
Correction: 5. DICTATE, not lead ;-)
Norton Louis Added May 19, 2017 - 11:36am
How quickly we forget the Cold War....a war where a nuclear exchange was imminent.  How quickly we forget the last World War...a war where a voluntary pact of nations was required to stop both Japan and Germany from erasing our borders.  
 
Its easy to throw rocks at efforts to maintain world peace against world war.  Is there self interest, corruption, power and intrigue at work in Nato and the United Nations?  Of course there is; we are only human after all.
 
We have had widespread relative peace and societal wealth for so long that many of us have unlearned that humanity evolved brutality, selfishness, warlike tendencies and greed as survival traits and the still have the very good chance of playing out against the world stage.
 
Stone, World War makes what you are complaining about today look like Kindergarten.  Be careful what you wish for...an end to NATO could mean war in Europe once again.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 19, 2017 - 11:47am
Norton
 
NATO is the one who means war in these days. We see that in the activities like the Maidan and the US pastime of removing governments and installing ones which follow their rules no matter where on the planet.
 
Sorry, but the most part of the world sees the US (the leader of NATO) as the biggest threat to world peace. Not only Europe. I hear that in Africa as well, and I guess Russia and China feel the same, if I interpret it correctly.
 
But in the US the public is not aware of that or don't care. They're conditioned to think "us first", and who is not with me is against me. As if there wouldn't be a way in the middle.
 
But that subject would take too long to discuss here. It started 100 years ago ;-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 19, 2017 - 11:54am
BTW: I don't say that the regular Joe in the US is at fault completely. Ok, he has, as we have, the possibility to get a balanced POV through the net. But the US media (deep state again), and also most of our European media, are all else than a "free press".
 
We have a magazine called "Der Spiegel" - the mirror. The articles were and still are against Russia. Then, when you read the comments, you get 90 pro Russian and 10 against. But the paper hangs on its POV stubbornly. Why ? Because they have ORDER to damn one side and hail the other, no matter which POV the readers have ! They don't take that into account but keep on hammering the same phrases into people's heads for no use.
Norton Louis Added May 19, 2017 - 12:01pm
Stone, OK history tells us that it is human nature to make war and seek more power on an individual and nation-state basis.  Most of us are descendants of Ghengis Khan that conquered the known world after all.
 
No nation state will leave you alone to live peacefully, as much as we might wish this is the case.  It's human nature at work. 
 
Of the three major powers you mention, which one would you prefer to win and rule the planets affairs?  Russia, China or the US?
 
It would seem to me that in spite of the self interest the US exhibits, there is also plenty of restraint and altruism as well.  Do you think China or Russia would do a better job of protecting the Western World?
 
Frankly I believe China is a better steward of the human race as a whole as exemplified by their two millennia history, but I prefer my life style and freedoms as a Westerner too much to wish for a restricted, subsistence living.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 19, 2017 - 12:20pm
Norton
 
It's human nature at work. 
 
That makes point 1.
 
Of the three major powers you mention, which one would you prefer to win and rule the planets affairs?  Russia, China or the US?
 
Not mentioning point 5.....none of them. For culture: Russia. For efficiency: China. (I don't talk human rights and other stuff here). For climate: The US ;-)
 
But I can only judge the US because I've lived there. I have friends who immigrated to Russia, and they are very happy there - friendly people, no crime, very helpful and easy going. I don't mention material wealth, I never look at that side in general. I don't care for that much. The basic needs have to be met, but that's it. The rest is up to anybody.
 
China is a blank spot for me. I lived in Asia, but I never really got into deeper relations with the people, maybe I was too young at 21.
 
I worked in the US and Canada, and, frankly (apart from the climate) I thought Canada was the better US ;-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 19, 2017 - 12:23pm
Do you think China or Russia would do a better job of protecting the Western World?
 
Protecting from WHAT ? We're neither afraid of China or Russia here in Europe. The press wants to feed that.
 
And...what's the definition of "Western world" anyway ? Which values do we have to defend against whom ? Russia uses iShit and eats McDonalds and hip hops. So isn't that "Western" ?
 
You see, all is propaganda and lies.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 19, 2017 - 12:26pm
BTW: Do remember that the Russians are our neighbors. Without being arrogant I think we can judge them better than people in the US.
Ian Thorpe Added May 19, 2017 - 12:41pm
Stone, I think that we in the liberal democracies have to defend our cultures and values against our own ruling elite, who on available evidence want to establish a global government and impose a global culture of ever increasing consumption and ever growing profits.
Norton Louis Added May 19, 2017 - 12:54pm
Ian well said.  Frankly, I think Russia and China may be part of the resistance in some ways when it comes to the Deep State.  Borders and governmental systems are not as black and white as they use to be; technology and communication has created much gray area.  That being said, I admit that NATO is probably like chemotherapy....a treatment against the cancer of larger states invading smaller states, but likely to make you sick in the process........
 
The bottom line is that we need to be on guard at the local level against our government taking action to reduce the powers of State in favor of open borders and world government. 
 
All that being said, Trump is a border guy, and has openly opposed nation building and NATO (in spite of his recent political posturing).  Eliminating ISIS I think is about as far as he is willing to go - another reason for the deep state to oppose him - he does not want to continue charging ill-conceived wars on the national credit card. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 19, 2017 - 1:00pm
Ian
 
liberal democracies have to defend our cultures and values against our own ruling elite
 
Wrong. We never really had one, apart, in parts, maybe we Swiss. The rest which calls itself democracies are either republics or economic dictatorships (aren't we all on the bottom ?).
 
So what's there to defend ? We haven't even started something which we could defend later :-)
 
What are our "values" ? And "culture" defines itself nowadays by the capability to buy brand products ? "Cultures" you will find anywhere but certainly not in our "West" anymore. Consumer culture, sure.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 19, 2017 - 1:02pm
BTW: Culture is in the mind. And we have largely lost that in Europe too. Culture is history, customs, arts etc. Pretty hard to find that in the US which is barely 250 years old (no insult!).
Norton Louis Added May 19, 2017 - 1:10pm
Stone - appreciate your answer to my question:  Question, if you were suddenly made emperor of the world, how would you deal with the planet's population explosion, species extinctions, resource depletion, etc. and still serve the billions of souls In a fair and equable manner?  
Your comment about changing our nature (removing or restricting the amygdala) follows my thinking.  The way I would answer this would be to change human nature as well, albeit perhaps in a more drastic fashion.
 
Elon Musk is pursuing a brain/computer interface.  I think this is a step in the right direction.  I would also make it a priority to take control of our genome and allow parents to make selections for the children they wish to have. Cosmetic choices like eye color, height, hair color would be the beginning, then choices for higher IQs, endurance, disease resistance would follow.  Like you, I think the only way out of our cyclic wars and addiction to growth fueled by greed is to very gradually remove some of the unfortunate survival traits that Darwinism has bred into the human race over eons while increasing our overall intelligence.  Otherwise, these naked apes are destined to eventually destroy the planet and themselves due to the perceptual filters they don't even recognize that they have....the underlying reason for the saying "history repeats itself".
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 19, 2017 - 1:33pm
Norton
 
Misuse would be programmed. You'll end up with a humanity of clones, beautiful looking, intelligent but without any kind of personality. And there would not be any competition left.....that's what drives us foward....to......;-)
 
There's no way out. Whatever you do, there's two sides to the coin. Negative - positive - 0 - 1.
John G Added May 19, 2017 - 4:08pm
How many wars have Russia and China started compared to the USA? The very history of the USA is one of war, conquest and imperialism. 
That's why they teach you (brainwash you) to believe that war is man's natural state. But it clearly isn't.
As for freedom what is the imprisonment ratio in the respective nations.
Cold War propaganda never went away in the west.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 19, 2017 - 4:12pm
John
 
A good finish. 101% agree. That's it for here, if not, I'll simply repeat....
Norton Louis Added May 19, 2017 - 4:18pm
John G...good point on the prison ratio.  However this is more of a function of wealth and the drugs that wealth purchases.
 
WW1 and WW2 drew the US onto the national stage following the massive creation of wealth during the US industrial revolution.  The decline of the British empire left a vacuum.  It's hard to prove a negative, but I believe the world is better off with respect to war and lifestyle with the US as opposed to allowing Russia and China to fill the post WW2 vacuum....however we'll never know.  
 
If you don't know that greed, tribalism, jealousy and seeking after power/war are part if our genetic heritage, there is nothing I can say to change your mind.  Part of the thanklessness on holding back world war is that those shielded from the worst parts of human nature begin to believe that humanity is kinder and gentler than they really are.....
Norton Louis Added May 19, 2017 - 4:34pm
Comment deleted due to profanity
John G Added May 19, 2017 - 4:39pm
LOLz.
Paul Hosse Added May 19, 2017 - 6:38pm
Good short article Norton. I would like to see you expand the content.  The Deep State is really nothing more than the Oligarchy which rules the US these days; the neo-fascist partnership between the corporate elites and the government, especially the "off the books" "black budget" committees, agenices, departments, and advisory boards who are not under the control of Congress and are not subject to any oversight, yet have incredable power. These are the groups responsible for the rise in our survalliance state. I don't seem them "fighting back" as much as I see them being slightly more "closer to the surface" as they reach for more control. And why not? They own the Democrats, Republicans equally just as they do the "impartial" Judicial System.  They control the election process just as they own the corporate media (96% of all media is controlled by just six corporations for instance). This is about control. Plain and simple.
Norton Louis Added May 19, 2017 - 8:23pm
Paul....agreed on all points.  This is exactly why the Deep State is striking back at a President Trump that is patriotic and beholden to no one but his old fashioned sense of duty to country.  I think we'll find that the President's public support is more unwavering than the Deep State understands, and as the media piles on, that strength will only increase.  We may indeed be headed for a revolution of sorts in the US.  The surveillance state definitely has the upper hand here though. 
Norton Louis Added May 19, 2017 - 8:35pm
One more point.  The former US Attorney General Eric Holder was caught buying guns in the US and selling them over the border without a method to track them.  This was done to discredit gun ownership and was known as the "Fast and Furious" program.  Mr. Holder was then caught telling a lie under oath to the US Congress.
 
Under Obama, IRS employee Lois Lerner was caught targeting tea party groups with actions that included slow-walking non-profit (therefore non-tax) groups.  No Grand Jury was empaneled, nor was she or her supervisors held accountable.
 
Hillary Rodham Clinton was found by Director Comey to have clearly violated US statutes regarding classified information; crimes an average citizen would spend years in jail for committing.  Result?  No charges filed.
 
The then head of the intelligence services Eric Clapper lied (a felony) to Congress about US Citizen surveillance that Snowden exposed with his leaks.
 
These crimes were not prosecuted for one reason; they served the Deep State.   Make no mistake about it.  The Deep State is in control of the US.  The above list is just the tip of the iceberg.  I think they would have already assassinated the President if they thought they would not create a martyr in the process....safer to attempt personal destruction. 
 
 
John G Added May 19, 2017 - 9:09pm
And George W Bush killed over a million Iraqis (as did Bill Clinton) but you don't seem that concerned about crimes against other nations.
Trump's administration has committed international crimes every day of his presidency including killing children.
Where's the outrage?
 
Norton Louis Added May 20, 2017 - 12:23am
John, agreed.  Iraq was a farce.  Bush and Colin Powell manufactured evidence of WMDs as an excuse to invade Iraq while the chief UN weapons inspector at the time was telling anyone that would listen Iraq did not have WMDs.
 
I tend to pay more attention to Progressives as tools of the Deep State due to their complicity in the erosion of personal freedoms.  Conservatives however, specialize in serving the Deep State on issues affecting the Military Industrial Complex, surveillance and other issues. 
 
The Deep State is not limited to one party.  This is why I have been urging President Trump to carve a new, third party out of the center of both major parties to fight extremism, corruption and Deep-Statism if you will within both major political parties. 
Norton Louis Added May 20, 2017 - 12:24am
Enter your comment here...
John G Added May 20, 2017 - 12:39am
I think your estimation of Trump is wildly off as is your view of public opinion. Trump's talk isn't matched by deeds. He's an opportunist.
The public mood is far more socialist than for yet more wacky right wing crap.
Bernie Sanders would have blown Trump out of the race.
Norton Louis Added May 20, 2017 - 12:53am
John it's as much about the people,that voted for President Trump (many for the first time) as it is about the man himself.  As he says, it is a "movement" of the People that wish to take their country back.
John G Added May 20, 2017 - 1:05am
So all those progressives on the left who'd have voted for Bernie Sanders in much greater numbers aren't a people's movement?
But a bunch of right wingers following a billionaire whose election was down to being less unpopular than his opponent can lead a popular movement?
LOLz.
He's a corporatist. He's not going to take the country back from the corporatists. He's got more Goldman people than Obama and Clinton had.
How do you dream this stuff up?
 
Norton Louis Added May 20, 2017 - 1:14am
John, Both Sanders and Trump followers are syptomatic of the same root cause, as were Macron and LaPen for that matter.  There are many ways to look at this situation.  The old labels simply don't work anymore with the rise of the Deep State.  When you try to place people in buckets, don't forever the biggest bucket of all now has Deep State written on the side.
Norton Louis Added May 20, 2017 - 1:17am
Forget not forever
John G Added May 20, 2017 - 1:31am
The deep state is not a new phenomenon. Who do you think killed Kennedy?
You don't get more deep state than Goldman Sachs.
America is run by the war party. And Trump may not be their chosen one but he's rolled over already. His talk was just that. Talk.
Sanders, unlike Trump, offered solutions to the economic problems that face middle America. Trump only serves the ruling class.
Norton Louis Added May 20, 2017 - 1:52am
John....Perhaps, but Trump's backers are still anti-deep state.  We'll see where the movement goes.
John G Added May 20, 2017 - 1:58am
 His backers are a faction of the oligarchy with the same class interests as the other factions.
There is no movement. There just aren't that many committed fascists in America.
Norton Louis Added May 20, 2017 - 9:25am
John, President Trumps base is composed more of the silent majority than any other group.  The only fascists I see are the Sanders-nistas burning cars and breaking windows in the name of silencing opinions they don't agree with.
 
You are not hearing me on the movement aspect; it started with Perot until the media discredited him, then morphed into the Tea Party, then grew further under Trump to help elect a President.  This could be a temporary blip for the US, or a revolution against  Deep State Doctrine in the making.  I'm betting on the glass half full.  Every revolution has naysayers that say it can't be done.  Is that who you want to be?
Paul Hosse Added May 20, 2017 - 9:43am
Agreed Norton. You can almost tell who and how benefits the Oligarchy or Deep State by who they go and don't go after. Revolution? No doubt in my mind. I've been tracking and writing about that trend for years now. I can foresee that easily devolving into a Civil War of sorts and a possible breakup of the US. 
Norton Louis Added May 20, 2017 - 10:15am
Paul, it used to be unthinkable that the US might break up.  However, talk that started as a trickle is slowly brewing a storm.  Secession talk is heard in Liberal California as much as Conservative Texas these days.
 
If I had to choose between the creation of a US third party (and all of the disruption it would bring) and a civil war....the third party is the obvious choice.  However, they may also be the same choice in the long run. So be it.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 20, 2017 - 1:56pm
Now this is getting weird. A country which has no ethnic past and history and does not have a prevalent race anymore wants to play secessionist ?
 
A country needs IDENTITY. And I doubt that one can find that in places like California or Texas. LOCAL customs and "identity" maybe, but that's not enough.
 
Proud to be American means now proud to be a Houstonite or a Friscoian ?
 
Tztz LOL
George N Romey Added May 20, 2017 - 2:04pm
The Deep State=the MIC, large MNCs, Wall Street, career politicians and certain plutocrats.  Their agenda is to wipe out most of the world in favor of their "kind".  They believe they can survive nuclear wars. They have no real national identity.  They are total psychopaths and sociopaths at heart.
 
They are betting on the stupidity and docile nature of the people.  Just look at WB for a small microcosm of Americans and Europeans. 
Norton Louis Added May 20, 2017 - 2:19pm
Stone,  wars and revolutions can be fought over ideas.  Though I find the cultural elitism represented by your remarks to be slightly offensive, it is the implied racism that truly saddens me as an artifact from the past.
 
The world is changing.  What used to be is not necessarily what will be to come.  The Deep State is an equal opportunity abuser ofpower, access and influence that crosses political and racial lines.  The sooner we drop our old labels and embrace this new reality, the better we can resist the erasure of our national identities.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 20, 2017 - 2:52pm
George
 
Just look at WB for a small microcosm of Americans and Europeans. 
 
I'm about the only lasting European here LOL
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 20, 2017 - 2:53pm
Norton
 
I find the cultural elitism represented by your remarks to be slightly offensive, it is the implied racism
 
??? Can you tell me where you had that idea ? I really wonder.
Norton Louis Added May 20, 2017 - 3:51pm
Stone your earlier comment speaks for itself.  If you don't perceive your apparent euro-condecension regarding the US, repeating your words back to you will not help.
John G Added May 20, 2017 - 5:52pm
The only fascists I see are the Sanders-nistas
Accusing Sanders supporters of being fascists just shows your ignorance.
Your 'silent majority' must have been busy elsewhere on election day as they managed to account for even less votes than Romney gathered in 2012.
You're a right wing fantasist.
 
John G Added May 20, 2017 - 5:54pm
And the Tea Party are not a legitimate movement. They are idiots being led by the nose by oligarchs.
George N Romey Added May 20, 2017 - 6:02pm
There is no movement in Washington against the Deep State.  Sanders when confronted with the corruption of the Deep State caved into HRC, the emblematic queen of the Deep State.  Trump is either fearful of the Deep State or chooses to prop it up.  Pence of course is another darling of the Deep State.
 
The Deep State will only die when there is social revolt to do so, including a true leader to start the fight.  As of yet I see no one. 
 
The Deep State has no party affiliation.  It's based upon a world in which global elite play Master in Charge, fighting among themselves using the rest of the human race as their sacrificial toys.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 20, 2017 - 6:12pm
Norton
 
You have to understand something:
 
The US sees itself as the leader of the world. A country which has no interest at all to even understand the history of all our peoples on the planet, how they tick and how they perceive things. No. They walk in like the elephant in the porcelain shop and smash everything.
 
That planet has a history that goes back thousands of years. And these people (not the regular Joe) show up and try again to play Caesar. The media tells your people that you must free the world of tyranny and create democracy. By using bombs and regime change.
 
The UN charta ? Fuck it. The one who has weapons decides. It will never change. Now it's your turn, later others will come. Nothing lasts. Not the Roman empire, not corporations, not the US, not even the planet in the long run.
 
You know what I mean ? Being humble is the only way to let our species last a little longer, for whatever purpose.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 20, 2017 - 6:14pm
BTW: When you think I'm a racist, cut and paste the parts where you had that impression. Then I will explain you.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added May 20, 2017 - 6:19pm
BTW2 Norton
 
I think you didn't understand someting. We Europeans and you Americans are in the same boat. The US leads the boat and we nod. And I don't agree at all. The EU is a bunch of cowards (paid or not), not being able to tell the US: Get out of here, we can candle the Russians. They are YOUR enemies, not ours.
 
Is that clear now ?
George N Romey Added May 20, 2017 - 7:33pm
The US will crumble in its current form.  Success never lasts forever in part because those that become successful take their success as a given or an inherent right.  Assuming mankind doesn't nuke the planet to near death the US will evolve into something else. That we do not know, it could be good for Americans it could be something more like the Third Reich.
John Minehan Added May 21, 2017 - 12:28pm
"The Deep State HAS ALREADY overthrown Trump as it did Obummer and Shrub. When it comes to continuing ALL the wars we’ve started throughout the world and the continued relinquishing our Constitutional rights you can start to see the pattern."
 
That's plausible, although it sounds more volitional than it probably was. 
 
What strikes me about Trump is how open the IC has been in its opposition, as with publishing the Dossier. 
John Minehan Added May 21, 2017 - 12:30pm
"The US will crumble in its current form."
 
While still adamantly maintaining that nothing has changed.
 
Our system gives a default to States again becoming more important than the Federal Government.    
John Minehan Added May 21, 2017 - 12:43pm
"And the Tea Party are not a legitimate movement. They are idiots being led by the nose by oligarchs."
 
The TEA Party/Liberty Movement, Obama For America in '08, Occupy in '11 and Bernie's folks were all idealistic attempts to fix the country at a national-level.
 
None of it could work, I think, for two reasons:
 
1) it is too easy to get co-opted into political squabbling instead of finding common ground and changing things (my Party winning is much less important than honest, competent people winning); and
 
2) the local level is easier to change than the national level and will probably be more important in the long term.  (The Liberty Movement has done some good work with this since '08, but a patronage-mindset in local politics is hard to overcome: "I want to be on City Council so my Brother-In-Law can be Ass't Parks Commissioner."  Citizens' Action, an off-shoot of Occupy,  is also trying to 'act local"recently . . . and seems to have the same issue.)   
Norton Louis Added May 21, 2017 - 5:22pm
John.....agree with your coopt comment.  Social issues tend to overwhelm the dialogue (LGTB, Prayer in School, Cross Gender Bathrooms).  Though these issues get the base stirred up and are fundraisers, they distract from doing business as a country.  There are people in both parties that only want to focus on the "economy, economy, economy"; better paying jobs, reduced national debt, tax relief, etc.  These issues are seldom served  other than with lip service oncee their representative politician gets elected.
 
Trump is engaging the center, which is why the cockroaches of the Deep State are coming out into the light more than they normally would.
 
One way to break this cycle is to carve a centrist party out of the middle that refuses to engage in social issues; a party focused only on the constitution, empowering States in lieu of the Federal Government, the economy and reform.  
 
President Trump - we are waiting for you to declare for a new, Constitutionalist Party.  In this way, those of us in the center can mobilize to help you drain the swamp and take back our country for its people.
John Minehan Added May 21, 2017 - 7:01pm
Not quite an admission, but close . . . .
John G Added May 22, 2017 - 2:28am
The Tea Party vs OWS and the Bernie Sanders movement are poles apart. There is no common ground whatsoever.
How could you have a 'centrist party' with extremist nut jobs like the Tea Party loons in it?
You are NOT a centrist by any means. You are on the right wing fringe.
Norton Louis Added May 22, 2017 - 2:43am
John, the biggest thing wrong with the Tea Party is that it is not a party at all.  The early focus of the Tea Party was Constitutional and economic.  To your point, it was co-opted by many that also hold right wing positions on social issues.
 
Without a separate platform, the message is going to drift.  This is why we need a third, Centrist party that refuses to involve themselves in the faux social issue war, and instead focuses on the business of serving the country for its people.  
 
Mike Haluska Added May 22, 2017 - 11:08am
Norton - well said!  I think we should call it the Constitutionalist Party.  If it's not in the Constitution, we don't discuss it at the Federal Level.
Mike Haluska Added May 22, 2017 - 11:12am
John G - your comment:
 
"extremist nut jobs like the Tea Party loons in it?
 
indicates how little you actually know about the TEA Party.  If standing up for the Constitution and not allowing it to be sidestepped, ignored or just plain violated is "looney" then - yeah, we're all Daffy Duck.
Norton Louis Added May 22, 2017 - 11:50am
John G.  On one level, sure Sanders "free school, free stuff, tax the heck out of people" and the Tea Party "smaller govt., less regulation, less taxes" are polar opposites. 
 
However, the rise of alternative messaging from both of these groups is wildly different than  the past generation two-party view of the world.  The rise of alternative political sub-groups is due to the same root cause; the failure of the two party system to protect American economic and social exceptionalism. 
 
Believe me, those disaffected millenials would not be burning cars and begging for free stuff from the State if their prospects for paying back their student loans after graduation were better.  In that manner they are aligned perfectly with USA/States first, constitutional messaging found in the Tea Party.
 
Let go of the old labels - they no longer apply.  The old labels come from a time that we had 60,000 more factories in the US than we do today.  They come from a time where we did not have crippling debt as a country.  They come from a time that we were not exporting 600 to 800 billion dollars of our economy yearly in the form of trade deficits.  They come from a time that politician corruption was a game played to benefit parties WITHIN the US, not to rob the US economically in the name of supporting a world economy. 
 
The world has changed.  The Deep State is counting on you to cling to the old definitions so that they can continue to change the country unchallenged.  Don't let them get away with it.
Norton Louis Added May 22, 2017 - 11:54am
Mike...ok where do we sign up for the Constitutionalist Party?  We need a leader on this.........
John G Added May 22, 2017 - 2:39pm
Only right wing proto-fascist loons would have balancing the federal fiscal position as a policy platform.
That's just nuts. It isn't economics, it's religion.
Mike Haluska Added May 22, 2017 - 2:41pm
John G -
 
No, financial responsibility is an acknowledgement that we can't get something for nothing.  There's no mysticism involved in living within your means.  The "mysticism" is all on your side with the mythology that "debt is good".
Norton Louis Added May 23, 2017 - 11:05am
Comment deleted due to content that could be perceived as racist
John G Added May 24, 2017 - 2:13am
The Federal Government 'debt' exactly equals the net financial assets of the non-government sector.
That isn't mythology, it's maths.
John G Added May 24, 2017 - 2:14am
Norton Louis Added May 22, 2017 - 11:50am
 
That's just drivel.
Norton Louis Added May 24, 2017 - 12:26pm
John G......check in with Greece or Puerto Rico to see what happens when your illusory asset of debt gets too far out of balance. 
 
Really, is there any position that you take that has some actual logic behind it?
John G Added May 26, 2017 - 2:06am
If your argument was sound you wouldn't need to delete comments.
Norton Louis Added May 26, 2017 - 5:08am
John, I delete comments that use vulgarity, racist comments or gross insults. While you have not yet made racial comments, you regularly stoop to vulgarity and insult.
John G Added May 26, 2017 - 8:03pm
Pointing out that Greece and Puerto Rico aren;'t currency issuing governments is neither 'vulgar' nor insulting.
Stooping to the 'civility' defence is, in and of itself, pathetic.
Norton Louis Added May 26, 2017 - 11:05pm
John when you call people "f@ck$ing pathetic morons that is both vulgar and insulting.  That is the reason that I deleted your comment - not due to any cogent argument you thought that you made.  Keep it clean and avoid personal insult and your comments will stand.
 
As to currency issuers, there is no free ride for diluting currency to avoid national bankruptcy.  One US dollar exactly 100 years ago has the comparative buying power of $20.81 today.  As currency issuers print money to pay the bills, they make their citizens poorer- wages never keep up with currency devaluation.
 
So Greece and Puerto Rico are not currency issuers...big deal.  They are bankruptcy candidates in lieu of currency devaluators..six of one and a half dozen of another.
 
As I said before, debt needs to occupy a balanced place on a Nation's P&L.  Too much debt impacts nations negatively whether currency issuers or not.  The US debt is a dam that will break and all flood the the world with devaluation when it is allowed to grow significantly in excess of our annual GNP, or when interest rates rise and we are no longer able to service the debt interest without borrowing even more. 
Jeff Michka Added Jun 3, 2017 - 1:43pm
Amazing the number of WBers that thrive on the existence of "The Deep State," conspiring to "rule the world." And they regularly meet and plan things out to confound all "The forces of light" that can never prevail against the tightly drawn plans of "the Deep State," and give them all this power to control Everything.
Norton Louis Added Jun 3, 2017 - 2:33pm
Not so crazy when  you place money and power in the mix Jeff.  Though you attempt to place the Deep State in the realm of hooded robes and secret handshakes, it's simply the corrupt alliances born of groups of people that share interests that often run contrary to the health of our nation as a whole.  
Jeff Michka Added Jun 4, 2017 - 12:04pm
Norton Louis defends: Though you attempt to place the Deep State in the realm of hooded robes and secret handshakes-I don't place it anywhere save the realm of different entities-similar org agendas.  For example, a banking firm not having a substantively different agenda from another banking firm.  Are they meeting and plotting the downfall of the Middle class?  Not likely, eh?  But there are those on WB that will insist on all this active plotting between entities, but nobody can say where or when they all meet up and decide the fate of the world.  Yeah, maybe ask who supplies the robes to the Deep State Illuminati, and we'll get answers. - You are probably correct: it's simply the corrupt alliances born of groups of people that share interests-Do these "alliances" all meet up and actively plot in a conspiracy, or just what?  If they don't then it's not this "grand conspiracy," just convergence.
Norton Louis Added Jun 4, 2017 - 3:07pm
Jeff
No plotting involved other than what naturally derives from financial activities.  One of the primary drivers of the Deep State can be embodied in two words:  Trade Deficit.  
 
An entire financial empire has arisen around selling American Consumers products made in other countries by underpaid people.......including children.
 
Some of the incredible wealth generated by this transfer of the American economy (17 trillion over the past several decades)  to other countries has been applied in the form of influence with American politicians at a level that amounts to corruption.
 
It does not take a rocket scientist nor a conspiracy theorist to follow the money.  NAFTA, TPP, "free trade" are there for anyone to see.
 
It takes a high level of gullibity or willful ignorance to refute the possibility of a Deep State given the evidence of media bias, intelligence leaks, cyclical senseless military actions and money in politics.  So which are you Jeff, gullible or willfully ignorant- or both?
Jeff Michka Added Jun 5, 2017 - 11:24am
Norton Louis sez:  So which are you Jeff, gullible or willfully ignorant- or both?-Neither, but then I'm not taken by conspiracy theorist nonsense either.  Apparently you are by "evidencing" the existence of Deep State by: the evidence of media bias, intelligence leaks, cyclical senseless military actions and money in politics.-Hmmm, media bias? You mean when the C*s of all the networks and cable channels got together (saved Fixed Noise) all sat down with the CIA, NSA, and other Deep State players and decided liberal bias would elect Hillary Clinton, all of them dressed in black robes, of course.  Then they all got away sight unseen through "the Matrix?" or when they all got together and drafted "Citizens United" for the Supremes?  Again, and not anyone made intelligence leaks about these meetings plotting against everyone everywhere.  Musta held these meetings at the Clinton Foundation?  And, of course, Bill Clinton was on the plane with Loretta Lynch to give her instructions detailed by "The Deep State?"  And when did the US stop a policy of senseless military actions?  Again according to you and other conspiracy theorists, "they" have been manipulating everything to make it happen.  I suppose that's an easier explanation to blame a shadow for the lack of light than simple stuff causing these problems, and might require solutions a little different than "unveiling The Deep State," which takes on more and more of an action hero movie than reality.  They'll all die when he sun shines on them, eh?  iF ANY "Deep State" exists, it's due to similarities of entitities and not some group plot where they all sat down and planned it.  There's nothing that even comes close to "proving it," just wishful conspiracy theorist thinking, and NOT expressing agreement with the existence of conspiring forces, gets heaps of abuse from proponents?  Call Alex Jones!!!  And yeah, I guess The Deep State is an agent of Santa Claus and the Easter bunny...which two I believe in as much as Deep State players all meeting up, rubbing their hands together and slathering as they plot to elect Hillary Clinton and start a war with Russia?  Sure they are...afterall, one of their "members" is "the Coffin makers Association of America, giant HRC contributor, of course. :-)
Jeff Michka Added Jun 5, 2017 - 11:33am
Tubularsock sez: But REAL CHANGE will have to take REAL ACTION and that is not in the cards for America-The-Asleep.-Amen, Tubular...but careful...the Deep State will stop all real action.  We need to worry and fret about people in black robes, on loan from the Freemasons, calling all the shots from 1000miles beneathe the surface of their fortified planet.  They are "conspiring" to stop real action, so we should surrender, 'cause it's useless, eh? You gave the "simple explanation:" America-The-Asleep.
Norton Louis Added Jun 5, 2017 - 11:34am
Jeff.......In logic, reductio ad absurdum (Latin for "reduction to absurdity"; or argumentum ad absurdum, "argument to absurdity") is a form of argument which attempts either to disprove a statement by showing it inevitably leads to a ridiculous, absurd, or impractical conclusion, or to prove one by showing that if it were not true, the result would be absurd or impossible.
 
Do you have anything in your debate arsenal other than trying to take valid points on the influence of money and power to the ridiculous extreme?   You appear to be somewhat of a one-trick pony, and your trick is becoming a little stale. 
Jeff Michka Added Jun 5, 2017 - 11:44am
Norton Louis deflects: Do you have anything in your debate arsenal other than trying to take valid points on the influence of money-The undue influence of money in politics has been a problem for a very long time.  Consider a Congressional candidate, having to either run every two years, or dropping out after sinking enough money into a candidacy to buy Panama. or spending several hundred thousand dollars on a state seat for anything.  And, if anything I stated is just reductio ad absurdum (Latin for "reduction to absurdity," then you've been asleep for decades.  But it isn't as absurd as trying to posit people in robes around a table plotting it all as a "reason."  You've just proved my thinking a bunch of you are just crap conspiracy theorists, and nothing more.  "Good people" can't afford to be elected officials.  Do you see that as problematic?
Norton Louis Added Jun 5, 2017 - 11:50am
Jeff,   Again..."robes".  Nobody is claiming anything about robes.   You just can't help yourself, can you? 
You said "good people can't afford to be elected officials".  You've actually said the first thing that I agree with.  The Deep State is nothing more than a large group of people that take positions to enhance their money and power, and do so in part by corrupting elected officials.  The only reason it IS a so called Deep State is that these positions often run contrary to the national interests of the United States.  Now really, is that so hard to believe?  Please no more references to Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 5, 2017 - 12:49pm
Norton Louis continues deflection: eff,   Again..."robes".  Nobody is claiming anything about robes.   You just can't help yourself, can you?- So okay, the Deep State player don't wear robes.  But the premise of this plotting and conspiring group is absurd, no "reductions" necessary. AND You said "good people can't afford to be elected officials".  You've actually said the first thing that I agree with.- Great you agree.  What have you actually envisioned to solve the problem.  What are you willing to do?  I've asked these question before and always get a ration of crap about it, which answers, automatically: Nothing.  Which seems the ongoing problem. AND Please no more references to Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. - Gee, are they a matter of faith?  Perhaps that's where I went wrong challenging another WB conspiracy theorist...it was a matter of faith.
Norton Louis Added Jun 5, 2017 - 1:21pm
Yawn
Jeff Michka Added Jun 5, 2017 - 4:05pm
Norton Louis tries: Yawn-Just wake up, or you're trying to show you've ran out of any arguments about the Conspiracy of the Deep State and their meetings to "conspire?" There are no other argument as, and by this reaction, can't keep the narrative alive "They" are "out" to conspire against "us."  Real good "conspiracy theorist" stuff, Norton, but once again, it's obvious you'll never do anything about money in politics as you would anything else since it would take more than touting "an evil empire."  At least you didn't lapse into a series of personal insults as a reaction, but as said, it still seems like your take is just conspiracy theory.  I will say the US has become a kingdom of Oligarchs, but still have no reason to believe they meet up to conspire, either.  Oligarchs, you might say, remain oligarchs, even when acted on by an outside source.  Oligarchs and oligarchy has been with us forever, so they'd all pretty much think/act the same self-preserving way.  Whadda shocker, huh?
Norton Louis Added Jun 6, 2017 - 1:19pm
 Jeff.  You'd probably be pleased with the results if you took some of that anti-deep state energy you possess and channeled it into some critical thinking regimens.
 
The thing oligarchs have today that did not exist to any great extent prior to technology is 100% access to all of our electronic communications.  As they say, "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely".  100% access to otherwise private information, when acted upon by people working towards goals contrary to that of a duly elected government is the very definition of a "Deep State". 
 
I'm curious, where does all of this ballistic energy you have against the concept of a deep state arise from?
Jeff Michka Added Jun 7, 2017 - 5:31pm
Norton Louis tries to imply: I'm curious, where does all of this ballistic energy you have against the concept of a deep state arise from? - i reserve to same scorn for conspiracy theorists as I do for nazis and other "rightist w/o reason."  Why?  You obviously are as bent out of shape over anyone questioning your pet theory as much as another on WB.  So you can make sense of it and have your own personal "Ah ha!" moment, it must only be because I'm a paid agent of the Deep State and Trump opponent since George Soros gives me and millions of other a check to be that way, each week.  Read Princess JenJen's take on me for "more reasons."  You're a real fool for even asking, but I can see your ego at work here and elsewhere on WB.  The smart marketer, Norton Louis...

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