What is Money? My Challenge to all Financial Pundits!

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Any pundit who thinks they understand this concept called ‘money’ are invited to challenge my views below.  Write a missive to counter my view and let’s create a challenge system to get to the bottom of this question: what is money? Today, I talked to more businessmen at my clubhouse (here in Arizona) on the question: what is money? I expressed my view that a new book must be written on this question (I have started collecting my data). Answers from users of money are interesting and revealing. Some say ‘green’ is money. Some say ‘digits’ are now money. Some say printed ‘notes’ are money. None, so far, have said that ‘gold’ is money. This surprises me. And some say they have no idea what money is. Let’s get more pundits into this discussion as ‘money’ rules our planet and our global system of commerce! Write your missive on this issue for all of us to read and evaluate.

 

Money is so important to many that they will die for the opportunity to get more money. Others will scheme and use psychological intrigue to gain more money assets for their portfolio. Politicians (many) will lie, cheat, steal, and distort reality if more money is offered to them. Brazil, Venezuela, and Russian politicians are currently in the news with serious ‘money’ issues and intrigue. So getting to the bottom of the question: what is money? could be relevant for making major changes to our system down the road. My view is basically that ‘money’ is a ‘phantom’ of our imagination (today). Money used to serve a viable purpose but no-longer does IMO. At its origin, American money ($) played a major role in our development, prosperity, and political success. It has allowed us to create global hegemony over this planet (given that we control most $$$ and their distribution on this planet). The American Empire can be attributed (to a major extent) to the success of the American dollar.

 

Today, it is my contention that our ‘money’ unit (the dollar) is mostly a ‘phantom’ of reality which emerges from our ‘inner’ self (being) and which has no existence within space/time. There is no money ‘thing’ anywhere within our greater material universe in my view. I can not locate, find, or discover this ‘thing’ called MONEY anywhere. When I look at the heavens I find no money. When I look at the earth I find no money. And when I look under the earth or under our water bodies I also find no money. An aerial view of our planet reveals NO money anywhere. So what is this ‘thing’ called money? Does anyone know? I use this item called money daily to do my duties and purchase my survival needs, yet when I ask pundits what this ‘thing’ is, they respond with all kinds of confusion, unawareness, and distortions. Why?

 

Today, my money is revealed within my various cyber accounts. I have cyber digits located at institutions like TDAmeritrade, Fidelity, Wells Fargo, and Chase. I trade cyber digits to increase and decrease my various cyber trading accounts. Most all my accounts now reside within this Netherworld space called Cyberspace. My accounts are within various computer screens. I look at my personal computer screen to discern how my cyber digits are performing within these various accounts. So isn’t it important to discern specifically what this ‘thing’ called money actually is? My personal view is that our money is now pure fantasy and illusion (mostly) and the unit is a phantom of reality. Let’s think about the ‘nature’ of this concept called money and the currency called our American dollar.

 

Is money (our current dollar) actually a ‘thing’ which exists within our space/time universe? I would suggest NO. Is money a concept of my mind/consciousness? I would suggest, YES. Money, to me, is purely an ‘inner’ concept of my metaphysical MIND. I think and/or invent money from my inner self (mind) prior to spending this unit. The best example for understanding money is to think and visualize what happened prior to us inventing money. I like to use the example of our original founders of America who came here via the Mayflower (1620) and started one of the first colonies at Plymouth Rock, Mass. These Americans had no official money as our country was yet to form. They bartered with the Indians (our native Americans) and planted crops (within the soil) so they could survive without any money.

 

Basically, Americans had NO money at their start and there was no private landholdings (ownership). The pilgrims later claimed land in the name of their foreign King and later created private property for their settlements. They then started primitive trading markets from their surplus productivity and bartered for goods and services. In time, the concept of a proxy for ‘value’ emerged within their inner self (mind). Keep in mind that trading involves this inner concept called ‘value’. The question emerged as to what could serve as a viable trading proxy for this inner concept called ‘value’. What do you think emerged over the years? Various goods took on the aura of being a viable proxy for ‘value’. Tobacco, corn, deer skins, beaver skins, wampum, silver coins, etc. took on this psychological aura of being a viable proxy.

 

Then as America grew and developed and after we created our Independence from King George (via the Revolutionary War) we decided to invent our own money concept. In 1785, the person called Thomas Jefferson (a genius on issues of money) thought up the idea that we needed a new American dollar to serve as our money unit. His idea then led him to ask the question: what should Americans invent as their money? Does the idea of a currency unit such as ‘dollar’ need a definition to be viable as our proxy for ‘value’? He concluded that this was absolutely necessary and a proposal was made to our first Congress in 1789 that our dollar be defined in terms of this commodity called silver. Then in 1792, our Congress passed legislation, called the Coinage Act of 1792, to legalize (make our new dollar legal tender for all goods and services). We now had a ‘thing’ called the American Dollar for trading, buying, selling, and saving.

 

Over these past 225 years our American dollar has taken on new changes and definitions and it has evolved into what today is called a cyber/digital dollar. The invention of the computer and our electromagnetic spectrum of frequencies has allowed us to create a new American dollar (mostly since the 1980’s) which now lives within Cyberspace. Cyber money has developed these past 30+ years as our computer technology has developed. With the creation of the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 and with FDR destroying the definition of our dollar in terms of gold (1933) we created the fiat paper dollar thereafter and now the virtual/digital dollar. Our private independent Federal Reserve banking system has created this phantom dollar which we now call the American CYBER dollar. This unit gets created ‘out-of-nothing’ (no material ‘thing’ as a definition) and it gets distributed globally via computer trading and various Fx transactions.

 

Math and numbers have replaced the ‘outer’ gold/silver dollar which I called a ‘thing’ and we now have a ‘no-thing’ dollar which lives within cyberspace (our inner being). This virtual dollar is now ubiquitous and serves as the Reserve currency for most of the World. Virtual money has emerged for our global trading system (since the closing of the gold exchange dollar in 1971). All foreign trade is now valued with a cyber dollar which has a phantom existence within this Netherworld space called Cyberspace. What is cyberspace? This is not the same as ‘observable’ space and/or space that we observe with our physical eyes. Cyberspace is a Netherworld which gets created by connecting computers and which gets revealed within our extended consciousness (our inner being). It has NO existence within our space/time universe IMO. Cyberspace can be viewed as an artificial space which accommodates this technology called the electronic computer.

 

Computers have existence within our space/time universe but cyberspace and cyber money have NO real existence IMO. That is my view of reality today. This means that our new cyber dollar is a ‘non-thing’ which has no real physical existence within our greater material universe. Can anyone find or possess this cyber unit? Does a virtual number in our computer screen represent a real ‘thing’ which exists permanently? What happens to a cyber dollar when the computer is shut-down? What happens when our authorities shut-down a market via their electric circuit breakers? What happens when our electrical grid is shut-down or made unavailable? What happens if the cyber numbers are wiped clean from a computer server by the choice of our authorities? What happens when a bank’s computer is made inoperative for exchanging these cyber units? What happens if our Central Bank and Political Authorities create a new Bank Holiday to reset the system?

 

My challenge to all the financial pundits and experts is to think about our new cyber money and to discern if this new global system is viable for longer-term trading and commerce. How does cyber money fulfill the core functions of money (standard of value, unit of account, medium of exchange, store of value)? If the unit has no substance and no physical existence how can it serve longer term as a unit of value and/or a store of value? What happens when the business cycle turns negative and our current bubble markets start to collapse? What happens to asset values during this decline/collapse of a normal business cycle? Could our cyber money go to ZERO? Could it vanish and disappear back into our inner consciousness? How stable is a cyber unit when the business cycle turns downward significantly? Give these considerations some reflection and then challenge my assumptions so we can further our understanding on this issue. Enjoy! Read my prior missives for more information on this issue of: What is money? I am: https://kingdomecon.wordpress.com.

Some images for your consideration:

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Can anyone discover ‘money’ on planet Earth or anywhere within our greater material universe? What about this concept called ‘value’?

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This concept called ‘money’ is so important that people will sacrifice their life for this phantom! Why?

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Socrates originated the philosophy of Dualism. He viewed himself as non-physical (immortal)! He did not view himself as his body!

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Can anyone find or locate money within our greater material universe? If not, then where is this ‘thing’ called money? Is it an ‘inner’ idea?

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If Gold is Gold (Au), how can Gold be Money? Logic says Au = Au? Was J.P. Morgan deceived?

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What underlies this proxy item called ‘money’? Is it the concept called ‘value’?

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Items chosen as a proxy for this concept called ‘value’! What is ‘value’? Is ‘value’ subjective/imaginary?

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Do ‘inner’ units such as our current cyber dollar have any ‘value’? Who gives ‘value’ to a cyber unit which gets created ‘out-of-nothing’?

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Ralph suggests that money is an illusion which serves no purpose in itself. Do we still need money for today’s commerce?

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Is cyber money an illusion or an observable reality? Where is this space called Cyberspace? Who can find it?

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Aristotle (a Monist) would agree with above (mostly). Reality is composed of ‘things’ from matter or nature. If people choose gold as their money then one could assume that money is gold. But logic says that gold is gold (irrespective of any other chosen ‘name’).  What is Dualism?

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Under Dualism money is a unit of consciousness (the human spirit) and not a ‘thing’ which exists! Socrates would be the philosopher of Dualism. Plato expanded upon the Socratic philosophy. 

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If my mind is separate from my body then I would not be my ‘body’. I would be my ‘mind’! Mind is equivalent to my ‘inner’ self! Cyberspace, to me, derives from mental activity and is revealed within my extended consciousness!

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This person who created the above images was correct until our paper dollar become our DIGITAL dollar. Today, digital money (also called cyber money) is created by merely ‘typing’ numbers into the computer screen (cyberspace). Out of thin air derives more thin air (abstractions produce abstractions)!

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A commercial banker in the process of creating money via typing numbers into cyberspace!

 

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Banks actually do not create money…bankers create money. They create cyber units by ‘typing’ numbers into cyberspace!

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QE is quantitative easing. QE starts with the Central Bank typing new cyber cash into their own account. They then spend this QE money to manipulate the markets! Central Banks also trade our markets to create our bubble economy!

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We need to get educated on this issue of What is Money! Our survival is dependent upon understanding this concept and where money derives from!

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Where is money on this planet called Earth? Do bankers just create $$$ and enslave humans on this planet? What do you think? Is money now a tool for enslavement? Could we eliminate money from this planet? What do you think?

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The electromagnetic spectrum could be free for all humanity. Smart phones are not needed for our money needs. We could eliminate all money going forward! The ‘root of most evil’ derives from this concept called ‘money’!

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A world without money is possible and realistic today. Robots and computer technologies can replace physical production via labor. Money could be eliminated if people desire to change and live as equals. Kingdom Economics could be a model for our future!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments

Autumn Cote Added Jun 1, 2017 - 7:47pm
Please note, the second best way to draw more attention to your work is to comment on the work of others. I know this to be true because if you do, I'll do everything in my power to draw more attention to your articles.
 
PS - There is a lot I can do and would like to do on your behalf.
Donald Swenson Added Jun 1, 2017 - 9:01pm
Yes, I will start to do this as I have time. Thanks for your help to get me off the ground. D
Autumn Cote Added Jun 1, 2017 - 9:21pm
The gratitude is mine.  Also note, it's against the rules to post more than one article within a 48 hour period.  So long as you follow the rules (starting now), many thanks for your participation with Writer Beat!
Donald Swenson Added Jun 1, 2017 - 9:28pm
Sorry, Autumn. I was unaware of this. Will follow from now on. D
John G Added Jun 2, 2017 - 1:09am
I'd suggest you take the time to read David Graeber's excellent 'Debt: The First 5000 Years.
Money is virtual and infinite.
 
George N Romey Added Jun 2, 2017 - 6:31am
Money changes over time and can mean many things.  Money is used to express value.  "Paying for something" can include barter or a future promise. 
Utpal Patel Added Jun 2, 2017 - 6:43am
“My view is basically that ‘money’ is a ‘phantom’ of our imagination (today). Money used to serve a viable purpose but no-longer does IMO.”
 
If money is what allows me to pay my mortgage and feed my family, it most definitely serves a purpose.  Furthermore, just because we often exchange money electronically doesn’t mean it’s a phantom of our imagination. Anyone can take those numbers on a computer screen and turn it into cash.  However, it’s becoming increasingly pointless to do so.  Many people don’t even walk around with wallets anymore as your money is easily accessible via mobile device. 
Matt Added Jun 2, 2017 - 11:47am
It is just a means of exchange. In a post-capitalist , commonly owned , production for use world, money would be obsolete along with all aspects of the market economy, digi currencies, banks, insurance, wages, prices etc.
 
D.H. Lawrence on money.
http://socialiststandardmyspace.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/d-h-lawrence-and-abolition-of-money.html
 
Donald Swenson Added Jun 2, 2017 - 2:02pm
What all the above responses are missing is this concept called 'value'. Value is a subjective/imaginary concept of our inner consciousness. Value does not exist as an outer reality.
Money served the role as a proxy for this subjective concept called 'value' until the dawn of Virtual currencies. Today, we are transitioning to virtual currencies globally. What are virtual currencies in reality? 
Are you aware that virtual currencies are units of our inner consciousness? These cyber units do not technically EXIST. They are 'imaginary'.
Imaginary money will vanish and disappear when our business cycle turns down. Virtual money units vanish back into our consciousness during a correction and a downward business cycle.
Beware of a coming bank holiday to prevent this vanishment from overwhelming our virtual/cyber index markets.
Gold and silver money does not vanish and disappear. Get some physical money for the coming bank holiday. D
Donald Swenson Added Jun 2, 2017 - 2:08pm
I think that our Central Banks recognize this virtual nature of our cyber currencies. These Central Banks are now refusing to allow any serious correction. Central Banks now trade all our stock markets. This used to be illegal. We live with a corrupt currency/money system today with few pundits comprehending the nature of these virtual markets. D
Donald Swenson Added Jun 2, 2017 - 2:09pm
Get prepared for a coming bank HOLIDAY. D
John G Added Jun 2, 2017 - 4:09pm
Money has no intrinsic value. 
Utpal Patel Added Jun 2, 2017 - 5:33pm
What your response to my comment misses is that I value the ability to feed my family and put a roof over their heads.
Donald Swenson Added Jun 2, 2017 - 5:52pm
John and Utpal,
The information above should help you prepare for your survival needs during the coming transition. D
Utpal Patel Added Jun 2, 2017 - 6:09pm
So let's assume your 100% right, and I should be preparing, what do I do in the interim...not pay my mortgage? Renegotiate my salary so that they pay me in non-perishable cans of food?
John G Added Jun 2, 2017 - 6:17pm
Your religion doesn't appeal to me, Donald.
Donald Swenson Added Jun 2, 2017 - 6:20pm
John, We live in a free choice nation. There is no need for you to buy into my philosophy. Be yourself!
Utpal, My suggestion is to live in the now and change as events change. Live as if today is your only reality. D
John G Added Jun 2, 2017 - 6:51pm
I don't live in the US. I'm watching your country go crazy from afar. I don't think you have much free choice.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 2, 2017 - 7:58pm
Money is law. I explain this here (video). See part 3.
Donald Swenson Added Jun 2, 2017 - 8:37pm
Virtual money has not been adjudicated. It is not official law. Virtual money should be viewed as imaginary. D
John G Added Jun 2, 2017 - 8:50pm
Yet your imaginary dollars were taken as payment for gold. And they will settle your tax liabilities. Money is created by accounting. Period.
Donald Swenson Added Jun 2, 2017 - 8:55pm
Yes, John you are correct. Imaginary money works for a season. But when the business cycle heads South, these imaginary units vanish. Central Banks are keeping the financial system from collapse. They trade the markets to keep the bubbles from deflating. How long can this Ponzi scheme continue? Only God knows. I sense rather soon. D
John G Added Jun 2, 2017 - 9:14pm
It isn't a ponzi scheme in any way shape or form. You say QE creates money that creates market bubbles and then claim the Fed is trading in them to stop them collapsing. How do you believe both?
I don't understand what you imagine money should be. 
As I said earlier, read David Graeber's book.
Richard Plank Added Jun 2, 2017 - 10:00pm
Donald,  I certainly applaud you for attempting to take this to a more abstract level.  What I would argue is through time humans have perceived their world in certain ways and created things to deal with world as they perceive it.  Religion comes to mind as does money as typical creations.  We can come from several points of view depending on what we have been exposed to as that is what can lead to how we perceive our world.  My take, given my background, is money has always been a way to provide a means to value things.   Many people have been involved in the creation of the idea we call money and this latest digital version is simply just another iteration.  Government is the tool we use to regulate ourselves or be regulated and it will continue to be the vehicle which decides what money is and what it means.  Governments are more or less representative and issues they control are mostly "wicked problems" not amenable to simple solutions and assumptions are clearly not either considered nor understood.  To be sure the business cycle will turn down and more permanently then most people have considered when it either becomes obvious that this planet is overpopulated or some serious natural situations out of our control take our population down to more manageable levels.  I doubt we will bomb ourselves into smaller numbers, but that is possible as well.  We will rethink money and what is value over time,  just like we have in the past.
Tamara Wilhite Added Jun 2, 2017 - 10:22pm
It is a measure and act of trust, but by having money, we have more freedom than bartering goods and don't have to rely on theft or attempts to generally make everything ourselves.
Donald Swenson Added Jun 2, 2017 - 11:48pm
What you folks are all missing is the imaginary nature of today's virtual money. Do you comprehend this concept called cyberspace? What is this space? 
Do you comprehend that cyber money totally disappears and vanishes when our markets correct or crash? Virtual digits serve as
Donald Swenson Added Jun 2, 2017 - 11:50pm
Our money today. These units live in our consciousness not within space/time reality. D
John G Added Jun 2, 2017 - 11:52pm
Donald, government money is extinguished when you pay tax. Broad money is extinguished when you repay your bank loans.
That is the nature of money. It is created out of thin air (or 0 more accurately) and disappears to the same place.
It has always been thus.
Donald Swenson Added Jun 3, 2017 - 12:01am
Paper notes do not vanish and disappear. Silver coins do not vanish and disappear. Gold bars do not vanish and disappear.
 
Yes the accounting unit does extinguish itself per our accounting rules. But we now have accounting units for most all spending, investing, trading, saving. These units are virtual. What does virtual mean? Where is this Netherworld called cyberspace? What is a virtual/cashless society?
 
You, John, are not perceiving my message. The entire financial system now lives in cyberspace. Respond if you comprehend. D
John G Added Jun 3, 2017 - 12:12am
Whether it exists in cyberspace, in paper ledgers, tally sticks, papyrus scrolls or clay tablets, money is and always has been virtual.
Money is an accounting expression of credits and debits.
BTW, if you pay your taxes in paper notes (which originally came from a bank and was deducted from that bank's reserve account) your paper notes will be received as an accounting entry and shredded.
Gold bars are not money. 
John G Added Jun 3, 2017 - 12:13am
What you want is not money.
Donald Swenson Added Jun 3, 2017 - 12:32am
John: money has never been virtual (historically). Cows, tobacco, deerskins, beaverskins, wampum, paper certificates, silver coins, gold coins, and many other 'things' have served us as money. 
 
Currency, however, is what you are referring to (like the dollar). Currency gets created for the purpose of increasing transaction units for the purpose of valuation. Measuring 'value' is the role of a currency unit. Plus it serves as an 'accounting unit'. 
Money, however, has always been (until recently) an object from nature. Virtual currencies are not 'objects' from nature, John. Look inside your inner consciousness for these units.
Donald Swenson Added Jun 3, 2017 - 12:35am
Article I, Section 8 of our Constitution says ONLY gold and silver shall be used for the payment of debts. Also, Thomas Jefferson, created our dollar and he defined this currency unit in terms of silver and gold (371.25 grains of silver and 24.75 grains of gold). I think this means that our Constitution does not recognize virtual money (what you think is money). D
John G Added Jun 3, 2017 - 1:15am
Money, however, has always been (until recently) an object from nature.
Nope. That's just wrong. And part of the disinformation process that the monetarists have inflicted on the public.
 
Ari Silverstein Added Jun 3, 2017 - 3:08am
Richard Plank:
“Many people have been involved in the creation of the idea we call money and this latest digital version is simply just another iteration.”
 
Just because cash doesn’t exchange hands, doesn’t mean anything has changed regarding the value or nature of money.  In other words, it’s the same iteration as always, but now it’s simply more efficient to pay for things by not actually using hard cash.  While some currencies become valueless, the idea we won’t pay for things using money in the future is a doomsday scenario.  Perhaps doomsday is coming, but the way I see it money has been around for thousands of years, there is no reason to think it’s suddenly going to go away in my lifetime. 
Doug Plumb Added Jun 3, 2017 - 10:55am
Money is not as simple as people think. Almost no one understands it. It took me a very long time to understand what money is and now I completely understand it. It is law and if you really want to learn about money and law, start reading the anti income taxers.
Donald Swenson Added Jun 3, 2017 - 2:47pm
Money actually derives from our inner consciousness. Today, banksters just create new units from their consciousness. Out of thin air are the words of Ron Paul.
Since Money is An inner concept of our mind, we can choose to eliminate it.
Production can occur without any money. Robots now have taken over most production.
Money is merely an INNER spiritual concept. I say let's eliminate it from planet Earth. D
Donald Swenson Added Jun 3, 2017 - 2:48pm
Ari,
Digital money lives in cyberspace. Do you understand the nature of cyberspace? D
John G Added Jun 3, 2017 - 9:39pm


Doug Plumb 



Money is not as simple as people think. Almost no one understands it. It took me a very long time to understand what money is and now I completely understand it. It is law and if you really want to learn about money and law, start reading the anti income taxers.
I watched your video and I can assure you that you don't understand the system at all. You've just fallen for all the libertarian myths.
The Fed is not a private bank, we don't have fractional reserve banking and government debts are not loans.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 4, 2017 - 12:17pm
John G,
Nice argument 8-)
The Fed in fact a private institution and the fact that it is no way responsible to government has been admitted by Alan Greenspan. Also, numerous people have written books on it, including attorney Ellen Brown.
John G Added Jun 4, 2017 - 4:27pm
The Fed is not a private bank and cannot function without minute to minute co-operation with Treasury. If you really understood the system you would know that.
The Fed, in this day and age, should really just be an office within Treasury but the illusion of separation and independence suits the politicians and their wealthy backers.
But make no mistake, it is a mirage.
Donald Swenson Added Jun 5, 2017 - 1:43am
The Fed was established by the Federal Reserve Act in 1913. Legally, it was delegated authority over Article I, section 8 of our Constitution. It was legally established as a private corporation. It operates independent of our government. Our Congress appropriates no money for this private institution. The Fed does create money out of thin air (nothing). Our Treasury sells bonds to primary dealers who operate under Fed rules and supervision. The System should be viewed as unconstitutional. D
John G Added Jun 5, 2017 - 2:19am
A 'private institution' that returns all its profits to the Treasury, has its CEO appointed by the POTUS and is legally junior to the Secretary of the Treasury.
A 'private independent institution' that must be in constant lockstep with Treasury for its liquidity operations to actually function.
You guys are just kidding yourselves.
What would be your system?
Donald Swenson Added Jun 5, 2017 - 1:42pm
I would abolish the Fed and then ask the American people what money system they want. The Fed is unconstitutional and it flaunts our decentralized philosophy which established our country. Where to you live. Are you an American? D
John G Added Jun 5, 2017 - 2:53pm
I've already told you that I'm not American. You seem to have comprehension problems.
What is unconstitutional about the Fed? 
Do you think not having a central payments system would work?
I think you have some serious misunderstandings about how it all works and the roles of the Fed, the Dept of Treasury and the Congress within the system.
Milton Friedman sold you a bunch of myths.
Donald Swenson Added Jun 5, 2017 - 3:06pm
Nothing will work given the issues with our current system. We have 200 trillion of debt in American and some 1.5 quadrillion of debt internationally. Can this continue indefinitely? I don't think so! None can be repaid now. Check out: www.usdebtclock.org for evidence. D
John G Added Jun 6, 2017 - 3:14am
We have 200 trillion of debt in America
Nonsense.
You're just falling for the scare stories of charlatans working for the oligarchy.
Matt Added Jun 6, 2017 - 8:34am
Before WW3 breaks out,  as all wars do  over trade routes, raw matriqls and sphers of geo-political intersts, it is defintely past time we moved onto a post-capitalism, post scarcity , free access, democratically controled model, of common ownership and production for use.
 
We can dispense with govwernment over people and any means of exchange then.
http://www.worldsocialism.org/
Donald Swenson Added Jun 6, 2017 - 12:09pm
Matt,
You progressive thinking has merit. Yes, we need a new System given that technologies can now create most of our products. We could eventually eliminate all money. D
Donald Swenson Added Jun 6, 2017 - 12:11pm
Kingdom economics is promoting a new system for our planet. D
john kirk Added Jun 18, 2017 - 6:49am
Dear Donald Swenson

this is why it is not possible to live without money
A world without money is possible and realistic today. Robots and computer technologies can replace physical production via labor. Money could be eliminated if people desire to change and live as equals
There is no one person that's wants to live as equals even you, and I don't have to go on, and on, and on to proof this if you did you would not have even have written the article. Yes we want to be treated equal is certain rights , but do I want to eat as much as you , no maybe more or less, show me two equal snowflakes . If you really want to be a con-man you really have to do much better ha-ha
Matt Added Jun 18, 2017 - 9:06am
John Kirk, social equality means free and equal access and control over productive and distributive processes. It doesn't mean we have to take equal amounts.That is rationing.
In a commonly owned , production for use, free access, post-capitalist world then we have a different set of criteria. "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs."
Needs and abilities being self determined by individuals who are free to choose.
We can make democratic collective decisions to ration a scarce resource or more practically substitute another one, but this is qualitively different from being at the mercy of blind market rationing, by wages and prices with ownership and control being the provision of an economic parasite class, while everynoe else is a waged slave producing the wealth in return for a subsistance ration.
Donald Swenson Added Jun 18, 2017 - 3:21pm
Matt perceives my message. Equality of personhood is my message... not equality of consumption. We are all different as to wants and needs but we need to relate as equals with respect to our personhood. D
Donald Swenson Added Jun 18, 2017 - 3:25pm
We now need to think in terms of creating a new System based on equality of personhood. This is possible if money is eliminated. Scarcity is why we invented money. Scarcity can be totally eliminated if we desire. We now need to think in terms of creating a new System. D
Donald Swenson Added Jun 18, 2017 - 3:28pm
The key to creating a new System is to eliminate the STATE. The individual needs to be Supreme, not the STATE. D
Donald Swenson Added Jun 18, 2017 - 3:29pm
Individual freedom is what Americans founders were all about. Read the Declaration of Independence. D
john kirk Added Jun 18, 2017 - 3:53pm
Hi Donald and Matt:
To help you with your enlightenment you need to watch . Movie 1. America: Imagine The World Without her
. Movie 2. Hillary's America which exposes the false Democratic narrative.
john kirk Added Jun 18, 2017 - 3:54pm
this will help you enjoy the 4 of July
Donald Swenson Added Jun 18, 2017 - 3:57pm
Kirk, do you have the links to these videos? D
john kirk Added Jun 18, 2017 - 4:05pm
the down side of watching is cognitive dissonance as a unbeliever
john kirk Added Jun 18, 2017 - 4:12pm
I can remember a young man saying to me if God would only talk to me and tell me what to do. I told him he has already talk to you , but it was not what you wanted to here , and I think it is the same for you Repent ,and read God's Word
john kirk Added Jun 18, 2017 - 4:30pm
Why Nazism Was Socialism and Why Socialism Is Totalitarian
john kirk Added Jun 18, 2017 - 4:32pm
https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian
Donald Swenson Added Jun 18, 2017 - 5:08pm
Thanks. D
Matt Added Jun 18, 2017 - 8:50pm
Von Mises and his understanding of socialism is flawed.He equates state control as socialism. It sn nothing of nthe kind . The state is just the executive arm of the dominant social class in society. This applies to state capitalist regimes, autarkic fanciful models and all other versions of capitalism.
Matt Added Jun 18, 2017 - 8:55pm
"To help you with your enlightenment you need to watch . Movie 1. America: Imagine The World Without her
. Movie 2. Hillary's America which exposes the false Democratic narrative."
  What does a capitalist supporting politician have to say of any interest to me? I want the whole world to be owned in common by the whole worlds population in a post-capitalist, production for use, common ownership model, with free access to the collective wealth and no government over the people, but rather the people governing over resources.
Matt Added Jun 18, 2017 - 9:10pm
Mises, the arch-advocate of the dystopia of a free market capitalism, argued that in a socialist society, with common ownership and no free market in means of production, rational economic calculation would be impossible and that such a society would not last for long but would eventually break down in economic chaos. This was a circular argument in that he defined rational economic calculation as calculation based on prices set by the free play of market forces.
 
 Mises’s argument that in a situation where productive capacity is not enough to satisfy people’s needs, calculation in some general unit of account such as money or labour-time would be necessary.
 
 The bourgeois concept of the human being having infinite needs is ridiculous, but it is the basis of bourgeois economics. … In fact there is a limited amount that needs to be produced for a given society and consequently under socialism we will be able to identify the limited areas in which increased production is needed.
 
 We will not need the wasteful money system, its banks ,checks and balances to calculate human needs in order to raion access via the wages and prices nexus, this freeing up human resources for productive activities.
In any case Calculation in Kind already exists inside capitalism, Economic calculation is only later, necessary for realising profit.
Production ofr use within a comonly owned societal mode,l with Calculation in Kind rebuts the von Mises, Hayeckian capitalist models.
So, why would we need to go to the trouble – and waste – of setting up a vast bureaucracy to measure the labour-time content of everything with a view to reducing it to a minimum and an individual’s input to production with a view to calculating their entitlement to goods and services, when the supposed need for this is not going to last for long?
 
 Even Mises conceded that earlier models of socialism, before the current mass production capacity of capitalism developed, could continue for a while without having recourse to his ‘rational economic calculation’.
 
Capitalism is obsolete.
 
Donald Swenson Added Jun 18, 2017 - 10:03pm
Matt: The Kingdom of our God is what your model seems to describe. God owns all the resources and man shares these resources with everyone as to needs. Money is eliminated and people are supreme. Is this your model.
 
I agree Capitalism is obsolete. D
Matt Added Jun 18, 2017 - 10:28pm
I couldn't possibly use that terminology. Kingdoms and gods are anathema to me. Certainly in a commonly owned, post -capitalist, production for use , free access, classless,  society the people are supreme over the means of producing and disributing wealth in a cooperative world community..
Donald Swenson Added Jun 18, 2017 - 11:08pm
The idea of commonly owned does not make much sense. What do you mean by commonly owned? What portion would I own. What portion would you own. Who would enforce the system so a classless society emerged? I think you end up with a hierarchy whether you like it or not. D
Matt Added Jun 19, 2017 - 8:41am
We all own it all.
 
 It is a majority social revolution. All previous revolutions were minority ones and necessarily installed a new ruling class. "Meet the new boss, same as hte old one." (The Who).
 
Nothing untowards about the idea .
 
 
 Early Christian communiites Annabaptists etc. held that all should be owned in common. This was impossible and led as you said to heirarchies of dominance over scarcity, as we did not have the technological capacity, the informational structure or an educated producer class to mass produce utilities for use.
 
We do now have in place, since the start of last century, the means of sustaining a production for use , free access, society wihtout elites or heirarchies.
 
 It will be organised,democratically, locally, regionally and globally, using  recallable delegation where specialisation is required.
 
A distinguishing mark of socialism is that distribution would operate according to need, rather than input … people will be able to walk into a distribution point and pick up what they need.
 
  In a socialist society you would expect workers to work in the way that they judge is correct. Since a worker’s incentive under socialism is not money, they work as best they can in order that they not only fulfil what they are doing for the collectivity, but for themselves. You would expect that they would work as well as they can, without any need for discipline from outside.
 
 Obviously there will be no such thing as finance, and whole sections of economic activity will no longer exist because they are completely wasteful and unnecessary.
 There will be no arms production, no advertising and, of course, no City of London, Wall Street, Frankfurt Exchange etc. – you can go through the different wasteful forms that will cease to exist. It is quite clear that the standard of living could very quickly be raised if such waste is removed.
 
The only thing needed is to win the immense majority to the idea and the people who make this social revolution will run it collectively form where they are with the informational technology at their disposal to enable themselves without the need for government over themselves.
 
Already millions of people volunteer  often in dangerous circumstances to help their fellow humans and there is no need to expect this to cease when a world of free access and production for use is established. Co-operation in humans is as hard wired into our genetic makeup of socially conditioned ranges and other propensity for responses.
 
As competition over scarce resources gives way to cooperationover a superabundance of necessities, it will simply be unthinkable to engage in anti-social activities as unrewarding, even foolish.
 
 Social disapproval of our fellows, will be  a better aid to self discipline than any coercive statist apparatus. This is evidenced in smaller primitive communistic societies.
 
Here are some short introductory articles explaining things better than I can.
http://www.worldsocialism.org/english/introductory-articles
john kirk Added Jun 19, 2017 - 9:13am
please give me an example of the successful countries even China and Russian had to use  capitalist ideas to bring themselves  up .
once a con always a con
Donald Swenson Added Jun 19, 2017 - 12:54pm
Matt: your big picture overview is excellent. Human nature is your problem. How can man become so cooperative and inclusive?
 
God would need to change our inner thinking for your model to arise. Human nature has not changed and this is why man government's prevail.
 
Your thinking is very logical with the exception of getting agreement among the masses for this alternative. How can general human nature be changed. Only God can do this!!! D
Donald Swenson Added Jun 19, 2017 - 12:56pm
Our current world system is on a self destruct course. Without an intervention from our Creator, I don't think we have any real hope. Show me otherwise. D
Matt Added Jun 19, 2017 - 1:10pm
Sorry. John Kirk your examples arer state capitalist , post-feudal revolutions and not of an advances towards a post capitalist society.
"State capitalism would be a step forward for us " (Lenin in What is to be done.)
Marxists of my kind pointed this out as early as 1918.
 
I keep stressing socialism is an advanced post-capitalist society which has not yet happened. It builds upon the technological advances of cpaitalism once it has removed, private, corporate or state ownership and installsa  production for use, free access society of relative superabundance.
Matt Added Jun 19, 2017 - 1:24pm
Human nature is the worst argument to use. Itis a religious one and has no substance attached ot it. What is this 'human nature' you refer to? It is human nature to eat, drink, sleep,procreate etc.
 
It is always depicted in reference to negative human behaviours and never to positive cooperative ones.
 
If human nature was a barrier to social progress, then we would not exist as we would have killed each other off.
 
The feudal powers that existed cited human nature against the emancipation of the peasants, into waged slavery and asserted the God given "Divine Rights of Kings"....
 
Human behaviour on the other hand is socially created and produced and arises out of society.
 
In one such as capitalism where warring competiion is rewarded then behaviour will be shaped by that particular ethos.
 
God and religious arguments about a negative 'human nature' is a useful weapon in the reproduction of slavish attitudes which prevent the development of alternatives.
Matt Added Jun 19, 2017 - 1:35pm
John Kirk: There is not and never has been any such thing as a socialist country. They have either been reformist capitalists or state capitalists.
The con is in your rulers and political opportunists saying otherwise.
 
"What you have is state capitalism."John Foster Dulless to Mikoyan at the time of Kruschev's visit to USA.
 
john kirk Added Jun 19, 2017 - 1:51pm
simple question   what are these three numbers   anyone
x23-46-9876       x346 7892 7655 9876     x34578 456921 341298 
I used x in place of a number  
john kirk Added Jun 19, 2017 - 2:48pm
come on Matt ,  Don you can guess  at least one
Donald Swenson Added Jun 19, 2017 - 4:58pm
Matt: Human nature changes gradually from the 'inside'. I have changed over my life span of 74 years. I used to steal, lie, cheat, (when in my youth) to a much greater degree than now. I now seek to control my 'inner' desire to grow by using selfish means (which harm others) to accomplish a goal. Money, to me, is no longer important (except for my basic survival and daily needs). When I look at the entire human race of 7.4 billion I do notice that human nature varies from person to person. The beheadings of Christians by radical Muslims was done for logical reasons (in the minds of the perpetrators). Their human nature (using killings) is what human beings have used since Cain killed Able. Trump just killed hundreds with his mega-bomb over in Afghanistan. He then killed many civilians over in Syria with more bombs. Obama did the same with his drone killings. Is this human nature in order to survive? Putin kills to advance his agenda. Xi kills to advance his. Duterte kills to advance his ideas. So do all our political leaders. Look over in Venezuela today and the actions of those leaders (their human nature). Can our existing human nature lead to a new world of peace and progress? Not in my view! What I witness is a trend towards the destruction of the whole human race given what is now happening. I think we need to give this concept called 'human nature' some reflection? What is it? Where does it derive from? What is meant by our 'inner' self? What is consciousness? What is man? D
Matt Added Jun 19, 2017 - 6:25pm
All your examples are driven by the economic imperatives of a competitive system, which as Marx put it "came into the world oozing blood from evey pore". Nothing to do with human nature.
 
 Scum rises to the top of class societies. But even good men have to do bad things to maintain the system, which economic imperative they serve.
 
 It is a pragmatic decision rather than some moral one, which drives them. They will dress it up as saving their constiuents from a greater fate. It is all hogwash, ideologically reinforced by the history books written by the victors.
 
Workers never declare war upon fellow workers of other countries.
 
 But when their leaders for reasons of winning raw amterials, trade routes, markets or spheres of geopolitical advantage deem it expedient, hatred will be manufactured and dressed in patriotic garb and blessed by religious leaders on all sides, with some few exceptions.
 
The beheadings of one group by by nother has nothing to do with religion but manipulation foot-soldiers by powerful elites tapping into other previous histories where England's Lloyd George could wonder if, "America could use Britains expertise in bombing niggers."
Where a racist parasite class member, Churchill  applauded the machine gunning of Afghan tribesmen, long beore he was willing let millions of Indians starve to aid his war effort in Europe.
 
 It was the 'good guys' who conducted the war science upon a civilian population at Nagasaki and Hiroshima. A choice,, they lied, of 'lesser evils'.
Darn all to do with some base human nature but more, much more,  to do with the inevitability of immense fortunes and rewards for maintaining the dominance of the minority (95-10%) for this sort of behaviour, in an obsolete class dominated society where the 90-95% have to produce all of the wealth in return for rations and must be kept in ignorance of their historic role of over throwing it.
 
But nothing is forever.
 
We do not need leaders, political or otherwise.
 
I stand alongside Marx and Engels in this regard.
------------------------------------------------
" The emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves. We cannot, therefore, co-operate with people who openly state that the workers are too uneducated to emancipate themselves and must be freed from above by philanthropic big bourgeois and petty bourgeois."
(1879 Marx and Engels )
=============================================
"From each according to their abilities to each according to their needs."
Donald Swenson Added Jun 20, 2017 - 12:30am
But nothing is forever. We do not need leaders, political or otherwise. I stand alongside Marx and Engels in this regard.
------------------------------------------------
" The emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves.
 
Bill: So you desire to conquer your opponents (with your working class buddies). Is that your message? I would suggest that this idea of your 'human nature' is seriously flawed. In the process of conquering, you set up another class (yourself and your buddies). Do you suppose that you can administer a new economic system via this methodology?
 
The core problem is not conquering another class to set up a new class, but we need to all step down from any type of 'power' position or mentality. Let God be King and you and I servants of this invisible Source (who rules us now even though most are unaware). D
Matt Added Jun 20, 2017 - 8:09am
 No, the class struggle has been going on for a couple of centuries, whether we know it conscioulsy or not. It is evident in the struggle for wages, the number of people incarcerated for crimes against property.
 
 It consists of a battle of ideas and culminates in the immense majority using capitalist democracy to capture power from the ruling class and the establishment of a class less society.
 
 With a commonly owned, production for use,free access society, social classes cease to exist.
 
An idea which predates even capitalism itself.
"When Adam delved and Eve span who was then the gentleman."
(A Dream of John Ball 1381)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ball_%28priest%29
I have already sketched out how the new society would function.
You need to investigate the links I gave you.
Your religious stuff reads like childish gobbledygook to a European.
 
john kirk Added Jun 20, 2017 - 8:26am
Hi Matt :
 Are you still on your soap box , I expect that you think  you’re  better that most because you are willing to get dirty for the sake of something good , PHD. you are( Pile it High and Deep) but you really want to get someone else dirty . I have heard this stuff since late fifties , and studied  it in the government 1963 or so, also  was there in Cuba  yes , and  you really have no idea and I am still having fun. PS. Love that Trump Guy . mmmm lets think about it do people want to leave America or come to it . Ask any of the 1  million that climb over the fence every year. We have the best.
Matt Added Jun 20, 2017 - 8:26am

'Our Demands Most Moderate Are, We Only Want the Earth’
 
Wage-workers in industrial and developing countries, skilled and unskilled labourers, manual and mental workers, urban and rural workers, all are ravaged by this global scourge with lost jobs and low pay, wage freeze and wage cuts, downsized and diminished benefits, factory closures and run-away shops, and casualisation of labour, strike-breaking and union-busting. he prophets of
 
Globalization talk of “free markets” and “free trade”. But how about freeing labour from wage-slavery?  The gap between the rich and the poor is wider and deeper than ever in history.
 
Despite all the advances in social production through new technology, billions today still have no food on their tables or roofs over their heads.
 
The last 100 years of capitalism has been a century of over-abundance for the owners of capital and utter deprivation for those who live only by the sale of their labour. Globalisation has inaugurated not a post-scarcity society but the unadorned class rule of the international capitalism and its insatiable pursuit of profit.
 

Socialism means that production is based on human need and is not designed to satisfy the greed of the few. The capitalist market should not dictate what is produced but the majority of people should be able to debate and plan what is needed for society as a whole.
 
The road to socialism requires a clear vision. We have no desire to add itself to the number of people's leaders. We are not back slapping or head patting when we say that young people of Britain  the world are the hope of the future.
 
Without their present and future labour power, capitalism has no future. We seek understanding and cooperation in the biggest of all projects, not to fight for the abolition of this or that, or the amelioration of that or the other, but for a complete revolution in our social system.
 
Capitalism took the idealism of our fathers and their fathers and covered it with the muck of two great wars. It took their young bodies and shattered them for its narrow interests. It continues to poison the Earth with pollution: it continues to cloud your vision with nationalist falsehoods wrapped up in sentiment and cheap patriotism. It will, if necessary, throw you in conflict against our brothers and sisters of other lands.
 
These demands are not excessive; they are most moderate. We only want the earth! It is humanity’s choice.
Matt Added Jun 20, 2017 - 8:34am
John Kirk you have studied capitalist lies  and propaganda and regurgitated it. You do not have an original idea in your head.
Cuba? What as this to do with socialism?
Here is what Fidel said when urging Mexican businesspeople to invest in Cuba, in 1988:
“We are capitalists, but state capitalists. We are not private capitalists.”  
(Daum, Walter , 1990,. The Life and Death of Stalinism; A Resurrection of Marxist Theory,  NY: Socialist Voice Publishing., p.232)
 
Socialism is a post-capitalist, production for use society with free access and democratic control of resources by all of the people.
 
http://www.whatissocialism.net/
 
john kirk Added Jun 20, 2017 - 9:52am
Matt: when are you starting up your company and start producing the new i-phone and paying those high wages? The area where I live has a saying results talk and bull s--- walks. Tell me where it is so I can put in for a job. You are not even close to selling me on this crap.
Matt Added Jun 20, 2017 - 11:31am
I am not selling anything. I just want you to do yourself a favour and put your own brain into gear.
 "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation." (Contended source Spencer or Paley)

 
 It matters little whether wages are high or low. In any case they will be eventually be driven down or the rate of exploitation increased, or production moved to a lower waged economy as other competitors enter the market.
 
 Capitalist exploitation takes place at the point of production via the waged slavery system and necessitates rationed access for the many and immense profits for the few, as well as war over trade routes, raw materials and spheres of geopolitical advantage.
 
 Capitalism is not forever. No social system is. I am advocating the rational forms which will shape the post-capitalist, democratic, production for use free access society of the future.
 
 Capitalism can not be reformed and shorn of war (by deed or proxy) and poverty (absolute or relative). Different political flavours between Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, Conservatives, minimum states,or full on state control, does not alter this status quo one iota.
Only the self emancipation of the wage slaves and the replacement of production for profit with production for use, a resource based economy will do so.
 90-95% of the worlds population produce all of the worlds wealth in waged enslaved conditions of rationed access to it and 5-10% of the economic parasite class live in ease and luxury form the profits of the endeavours of the immense majority.
 
 We have the technology to build a global paradise on earth, and at the same time we have the power to end life as we know it.
 
I cannot predict the actual future — only what it can be if we manage the earth and its resources intelligently.
 
 Capital is not necessary for the functioning of a post-capitalist society.
http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/education/depth-articles
 
Donald Swenson Added Jun 20, 2017 - 6:43pm
Matt: You have great ideas but a lack of wisdom (in my opinion). Capitalism is soon over as Agenda 2030 and the United Nations is forcing this new agenda on the 193 nations who voted for it. Agenda 2030 is your model as it desires Socialism, then Communal living, and then Utopia. Have you taken the time to read their sustainable goals and doctrines? 
 
Agenda 2030 will not give us this ideal society as human nature will not allow it. Humans desire to rule over others with laws that are mandated and enforced. This is what I have observed my entire life span. Your model will still need to work with humans who will not agree to your model. What will you do? Can you enforce your model on those who reject it and you?
 
The problem with all systems is that our human nature does not bow to another's rulership. Will Iran bow to Britain? Will Putin bow to Trump? Will I bow to your ideals? Eliminating these rulers and replacing them with your choices (workers or whatever you choose as a label) still ends up with human nature ruling over others. 
 
We need to dig deeper into ourselves and recognize that we are really spiritual beings at the core. America was founded on the concept of a Creator (Declaration of Independence). This Creator was and still is viewed as the REAL source which governs this planet. Where do you live? Europe? Which country? I think your view of reality is flawed and this is why your model can not work for this planet. You would need to implement your ideals on another planet.
 
I do like your ideals, however, as I think Capitalism is essentially over for this planet. My view is the Kingdom of our Creator as ruler. We need to DEED the planet back to our Source. Think on this for a few minutes. Give me your response. D
Donald Swenson Added Jun 20, 2017 - 7:05pm
Matt: This comes from your link on Socialism: Socialism extends democracy to the economy. The means of life are controlled democratically by the community, which owns them in common.  
 
Comment: The idea that 'the means of life are controlled democratically by the community' is what was tried by the Pilgrims in 1620. These religious people were following scripture and thought that a centralized system (the resources provided by the individuals of this community) could then be administered by the community (really the leaders of the community). This system would then provide all the needs for the community and everyone would be satisfied. Give then Receive was the model. What happened in real-time after a year of trial?
 
The individuals lost incentive and became alienated and frustrated with the unfairness of the distribution by the leaders. The leaders were designated as those responsible for distribution and who were the most disciplined. Gradually, the system broke down and people started to starve and rebel. That is when the leaders learned about this concept called 'human nature'. Human nature did not like a select few elites running the distribution system and forcing the policies (of give and receive) upon everyone.
 
For your Socialism to work, Matt, you will need to change human nature from what we have today to your ideal. This I don't think is possible (at this point in our history with a secular mindset). Yes, your ideals are great and your system could work if 'human nature' changed. But can you accomplish this change with your model? With you concept of reality? Not in my view.
 
We need to recognize that Utopia is great but first 'human nature' needs to change so that everyone 'gives' first and then 'takes'. This is a change that you need to address. Give and it shall be given unto you is a biblical statement. Can you get workers (everyone) to adopt this mindset? If so, then human nature would be changed. D
 
 
Matt Added Jun 20, 2017 - 10:40pm
 
Matt: You have great ideas but a lack of wisdom (in my opinion). Capitalism is soon over as Agenda 2030 and the United Nations is forcing this new agenda on the 193 nations who voted for it. Agenda 2030 is your model as it desires Socialism, then Communal living, and then Utopia. Have you taken the time to read their sustainable goals and doctrines?
I do not claim any wisdom. I am just a retired working man who has spent a lifetime studying real history, not the 'great men' nonsense I was taught in school. UN is a collection of capitalist nation states attempting to police themselves, while dominated by the larger geopolitical giants and has nothing to do with the bottom up establishment of socialism. It has some useful global functions, WHO etc and these will be utilised where necessary after the revolution, using recallable delegation.
Agenda 2030 will not give us this ideal society as human nature will not allow it. Humans desire to rule over others with laws that are mandated and enforced. This is what I have observed my entire life span. Your model will still need to work with humans who will not agree to your model. What will you do? Can you enforce your model on those who reject it and you?
it will not give us anything but the same old capitalism as capitalism can not be reformed and shorn of its twin concomitants of war and poverty. Nothing to do with human nature, but all to do with human behaviour arising out  the economic and political model of capitalism.
 
The problem with all systems is that our human nature does not bow to another's rulership. Will Iran bow to Britain? Will Putin bow to Trump? Will I bow to your ideals? Eliminating these rulers and replacing them with your choices (workers or whatever you choose as a label) still ends up with human nature ruling over others.
This is absurd. In a  class dominated society it gives the lie to itself. The worlds working class is in a subservient relationship to the world capitalist class. The human nature argument is one of the ideological weapons, which keeps them from fearlessly changing this slavish relationship. Britain,Iran Trump an dPutin wil be swept aside in the revolutionary tide which engulfs the spread of real socialist ideas. Nothing will stop an idea which time has come.
"The foes will rise with the sleep still in their eyes,
and they'll jerk from their beds as if they're dreaming,
They'll pinch themselves and feel and know its for real ,
 the hour that the ship comes in.
They'll raise their hands and say "we'll meet all your demands,
but we'll shout from the bows ,"Your days are numbered."
Like Pharoe's triumph they'll be drowned in the tide,
like Goliath they'll be conquered." (Apologies to Bob Dylan for nicking part of, "When the Ship Comes In" for my socialist allegory)
 
We need to dig deeper into ourselves and recognize that we are really spiritual beings at the core. America was founded on the concept of a Creator (Declaration of Independence). This Creator was and still is viewed as the REAL source which governs this planet. Where do you live? Europe? Which country? I think your view of reality is flawed and this is why your model can not work for this planet. You would need to implement your ideals on another planet.
No I am a human being all through. spirituality whether capitalized or not is such a tenuous philosophical construct I prefer not to use the expression for my emotional or psychological needs.
America was founded upon the opportunistic seizure of power by an elite from the Imperial power of another elite. The fact that they fanned 'the chimed flames of freedom', is largely irrelevant, 'all men created equal' stuff and nonsense while holding slaves and such, any notions of equality soon to be jettisoned in favour of class rule, civil war , murder of indigenous inhabitants, theft of territory and inevitably imperial expansion of their own just followed the capitalist developmental route.
 God is on everyones side in these conflicts, save the wretched of the earth who are enjoined to be, 'meek and humble' wage slaves, fearful of their human nature, so as to elect power over themselves, rather than rising,".. like lions from their slumbers, in unvanquishable numbers, shake their chains to earth like dew, we are the many they are few" (Shelley) .
I do like your ideals, however, as I think Capitalism is essentially over for this planet. My view is the Kingdom of our Creator as ruler. We need to DEED the planet back to our Source. Think on this for a few minutes. Give me your response. D
I don't regard myself as an idealist. I am a revolutionary. Capitalism may be obsolete, but it is far from over as they are picking sides for WW3 and boom wil follow bust, and be followed aga
Matt Added Jun 20, 2017 - 10:41pm
 
Matt: This comes from your link on Socialism: Socialism extends democracy to the economy. The means of life are controlled democratically by the community, which owns them in common. 
Yes, but this is not representative democracy where n elite is elected to govern but a recallable delegatory one.

 
Comment: The idea that 'the means of life are controlled democratically by the community' is what was tried by the Pilgrims in 1620. These religious people were following scripture and thought that a centralized system (the resources provided by the individuals of this community) could then be administered by the community (really the leaders of the community). This system would then provide all the needs for the community and everyone would be satisfied. Give then Receive was the model. What happened in real-time after a year of trial?
Well they were quite wrong then. A life of drudgery and toil in the absence of modern type equipment would not bring the same yields as modern methods.
Some of their communities did survive though.
The individuals lost incentive and became alienated and frustrated with the unfairness of the distribution by the leaders. The leaders were designated as those responsible for distribution and who were the most disciplined. Gradually, the system broke down and people started to starve and rebel. That is when the leaders learned about this concept called 'human nature'. Human nature did not like a select few elites running the distribution system and forcing the policies (of give and receive) upon everyone.
They did not learn about human nature. They learned about human behaviour in the face of perceived injustice, in response to representative democracy which surrenders control and is elitist, rather than delegatory democracy which retains control.
Puritanical , hard work and thrift imposed from above in the name of the collective.
They brought their fear of human nature with them in their fairy tale holy scriptures and were in awe of it, as they elected government over themselves in fear of the human nature bogeyman of religious invention. It is no accident that Weber wrote the book , "The Protestant Ethic the Spirit of Capitalism."
 
For your Socialism to work, Matt, you will need to change human nature from what we have today to your ideal. This I don't think is possible (at this point in our history with a secular mindset). Yes, your ideals are great and your system could work if 'human nature' changed. But can you accomplish this change with your model? With you concept of reality? Not in my view.
I have said before I am not an idealist.
 
We need to recognize that Utopia is great but first 'human nature' needs to change so that everyone 'gives' first and then 'takes'. This is a change that you need to address. Give and it shall be given unto you is a biblical statement. Can you get workers (everyone) to adopt this mindset? If so, then human nature would be changed. D
People already gave first. All the wealth with which we are surrounded was created by the worlds working class. It is time we took it, back, the wealth creating capacity and distributive networks, under our own collective control and utilise it to satisfy human needs.

 
Donald Swenson Added Jun 21, 2017 - 12:02am
Matt: I think you have some solid ideas that will develop after our current Capitalistic system collapses. So don't give up on your ideals, is my advice. But...
 
I don't regard myself as an idealist. I am a revolutionary. Capitalism may be obsolete, but it is far from over as they are picking sides for WW3 and boom wil follow bust, and be followed...
 
Capitalism, to my mind is over. Central banks now rule our financial system. By the way are you British? Your Central bank is one of the most corrupt on this planet (if you are British). Our Fed has followed the British lead since 1791. 
 
All the wealth with which we are surrounded was created by the worlds working class. It is time we took it, back, the wealth creating capacity and distributive networks, under our own collective control and utilise it to satisfy human needs. 
 
Taking wealth back is the problem, Matt. You would start your new system with a 'means' that could not work longer-term. The means is the key to the END. 'Taking back' would not work as human nature will want to 'take back again' from you and your workers. Your starting point is the flaw, Matt. The key to a successful END is the MEANS. Give and it shall be given unto you means that this mindset must develop prior to any system being established. Yes, I am an 'idealist' because that is the ONLY means that can work long-term. We need to DEED the planet, all the resources, and all the control BACK to our Source. This would work! D
 
 
 
john kirk Added Jun 21, 2017 - 10:38am
Hi Matt :
You never answered me about the numbers I posted , so I guess you don’t know or you are not really reading what anyone else has to say because you are so much better than them . The first one is a social security number , the second one is a visa card number . the third one is the tough one for some .
What do you think or do you not care what other people say ? Just ask
john kirk Added Jun 21, 2017 - 11:31am
Hi Again Don:
                You started talking about money which people use for buying and selling stuff, things, labor , and  on and on .
In the bible the book of Revelation the writer is in the spirit and sees the future and what they use to buy and sell
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
the writer looks at it he does not know the language or if it is a number , so he counts the degits
                                                234153   687912  300912
Now you have your 666 ,but not what people are looking for don’t get caught on the wrong side bthis is what I see , but you or someone may see something else.
 
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
 
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: buy and sell .
john kirk Added Jun 21, 2017 - 11:32am
your new money system
Matt Added Jun 21, 2017 - 5:41pm
Matt: I think you have some solid ideas that will develop after our current Capitalistic system collapses. So don't give up on your ideals, is my advice. But...
 
I don't regard myself as an idealist. I am a revolutionary. Capitalism may be obsolete, but it is far from over as they are picking sides for WW3 and boom wil follow bust, and be followed...
 
Capitalism, to my mind is over. Central banks now rule our financial system. By the way are you British? Your Central bank is one of the most corrupt on this planet (if you are British). Our Fed has followed the British lead since 1791.

I do not have a central bank or a country. I am a member of the international working class. Banks are just another capitalist institution. But banks are just a part of the money economy ensuring capital flows etc.. it is irrelevant whether some are more corrupt than others. Deregulation by Reagans administration and in the UK by Thatcher/Blair/Brown allowed an explosion in speculative finance and dodgy stock, which was itself a consequence of reduction of economic returns on investments in productive outlets.
 There is still a lot of dodgy stock being held by banks as a part of the buyouts and rescue deals but while these are not supposed to be traded there are bound to be some shady operations going on. There is always a conflict within sections of the capitalist class, rural against urban interests , small business versus big, financial against industrial capitalists. On eof the points of capitalist governments is to mediate between those interests but it is capitalism after it should be no surprise when via lobbying interests we see the 'best government money can buy', regardless of the supposed political flavour of it.
 
All the wealth with which we are surrounded was created by the worlds working class. It is time we took it, back, the wealth creating capacity and distributive networks, under our own collective control and utilise it to satisfy human needs.
 
Taking wealth back is the problem, Matt. You would start your new system with a 'means' that could not work longer-term. The means is the key to the END. 'Taking back' would not work as human nature will want to 'take back again' from you and your workers. Your starting point is the flaw, Matt. The key to a successful END is the MEANS. Give and it shall be given unto you means that this mindset must develop prior to any system being established. Yes, I am an 'idealist' because that is the ONLY means that can work long-term.


The means determines the end is my philosophy. Hence a majority revolution using the present democratic means to overthrow the dominant minority has as consequence the enabling effect of recourse to democratic society with the reverse also the case that the democratic ends determine the means. A virtuous circle.
 
 But any attempt to thwart this by violent means, by a minority, is doomed and will be seen to be so doomed, long before the formal enactment of common ownership.
 
It is, "peacefully if we may and violently only if we must". The will of the immense majorty will not be thwarted.
Then state wil have either been cpatured to render its weapons defunct or the armies comprising of the immense majorty will not fire upon their fellow workers as in Germany, Russia etc

We need to DEED the planet, all the resources, and all the control BACK to our Source. This would work! D

I do not know about DEED. Why the capitalisation? The source of all wealth is the same as it always was human labour applied to nature given raw materials. It was the same when the first humanoid creatures appeared on the African continent and will be the same in the future before the planet is obliterated by its sun. There is nothing external to this that can be ascertained scientifically.
Matt: I think you have some solid ideas that will develop after our current Capitalistic system collapses. So don't give up on your ideals, is my advice. But...
 
I don't regard myself as an idealist. I am a revolutionary. Capitalism may be obsolete, but it is far from over as they are picking sides for WW3 and boom wil follow bust, and be followed...
 
Capitalism, to my mind is over. Central banks now rule our financial system. By the way are you British? Your Central bank is one of the most corru
Matt Added Jun 21, 2017 - 5:47pm
John Kirk:
The title which attracted my attention and  a bit of my time was, "What is Money? my challenge to all financial pundits."
You have not posted anything of interest to me.
What is Money? My Challenge to all Financial Pundits! - See more at: http://writerbeat.com/articles/16675-What-is-Money-My-Challenge-to-all-Financial-Pundits-#sthash.qeXfls8x.dpuf
Donald Swenson Added Jun 21, 2017 - 6:05pm
Kirk: You concept of 666 is creative and certainly makes sense. Where did you get this idea from? Thanks.
 
Matt: Your knowledge is exceptional and you seem to think that your vision is inevitable. You may be correct that the working class will eventually wake-up and work to overthrow the elites. This would be fine with me...as long as violence is avoided. Go for it!
 
My vision is based on prophecy and the idea that man is not in control of events. Man just discovers reality but can not originate reality. We are all servants (most unknowingly). D
Matt Added Jun 21, 2017 - 6:52pm
My vision is based on prophecy and the idea that man is not in control of events. Man just discovers reality but can not originate reality. We are all servants (most unknowingly).
++++++++++++++++
Sorry, all that is just weird.
"Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past."
(18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon Marx)
 
We are active agents and not some slave of a god or master.
Matt Added Jun 21, 2017 - 7:16pm
Prophesy is pathetic. That is a recipe for sitting on your thumb. I am a child of the enlightenment. Some Americans can sound to me like creatures of a quasi- religious black lagoon. Just as weird as Islamic nut jobs.
No I do not think it inevitable, far from it.
But capitalism can not be reformed.
I am encouraged by the intere, ,st many are discovering in socialist ideas especially the younger generation. Even those not yet socialists neverthless are participating in the class struggle, they can not not help this, but some are prepared, based on their present understanding, to resist, in Occupy and other struggles, using peaceful democratic means and some again may prepared to risk themselves in providing aid and assistance to fellow workers in difficult and trying circumstances.
I am an optimist and not a pesimist. But I am also realistic and do not expect any massive change in the remaining years of my lifetime.
 
The stark choice though, is socialism or barbarism.
 
Donald Swenson Added Jun 21, 2017 - 8:08pm
Matt, have you read the book of Job in the old testament? Any serious thinker ought to read the book and contemplate its meaning. Most students of philosophy have read Job. My beliefs derive from the message of this book...as I think it reflects reality as we live it. The reading is heavy and deep. Dust off your Bible and read the words with contemplation. D
Donald Swenson Added Jun 21, 2017 - 8:09pm
The unexamined life is not worth living. D
Matt Added Jun 21, 2017 - 9:34pm
Your beliefs are just that. Beliefs. I grew up and out of religious fairy tales. I do not have any beliefs. I put behind me these foolish things.
I am an historical materialist. What makes you think only believers examine their life?
We do not need religious instructions to do so, without fear of the bogeyman.
Donald Swenson Added Jun 21, 2017 - 11:42pm
Yes, my beliefs are just beliefs. Where does that leave you? I think your situation is similar. To belittle the spiritual realm is belittling yourself. Do you have a 'mind', Matt? Is your 'mind' distinct and unique (subjective)? What is a 'mind' and what does it mean to think about reality? Could you be missing reality with your view that all my spiritual beliefs are 'fairy tales'. I challenge you to read the book of Job, Matt. Start at the beginning and read to the end. Get yourself a modern translation which uses contemporary words and thoughts. I think you will find the experience worthwhile. Enjoy! D
Matt Added Jun 22, 2017 - 8:41am
I have read all that stuff and also Jung on it. (I was the one meant to join a R.C. priesthood.) I am not belittleing you personally, indeed I gave you credit for your original question on money, but what you call the 'spiritual realm' has no scientific justification.
 
 I regard it as a psychological question.
 
 It has no bearing on material solutions (moneyless society), to material problems. (Capitalist parasitism and class domination).
 
 The mind is a material one, residing in a material brain, in a material body and does not exist outside of itself.
 
"Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world.
 
 Man is the world of man – state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification.
 
 It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.
 
 Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."
Marx
john kirk Added Jun 22, 2017 - 11:13am
To Matt and Don
If I told you that I went to Moody Bible Institute and Grace Seminary read the book of Job many times
Had verses from it on my grave stone it sounds very prideful or if I told you no I didn’t read it I would sound uninformed, but what I will tell you is that I have had a wonderful life and when I see Christ my joy will be complete . I don’t have to be a rebel and if a person does not know Christ all the deeds and acts will end with these words .
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
john kirk Added Jun 22, 2017 - 11:18am
who really cares what Marx said when he died hell open it's doors for him, and today he would say don't follow me< but his works will follow him . very sad
Donald Swenson Added Jun 22, 2017 - 3:51pm
Matt:  The mind is a material one, residing in a material brain, in a material body and does not exist outside of itself.
 
Your view, Matt, is typical of a  host of others who hold this premise on the 'mind/body' problem. I have studied this issue (go to: www.closertotruth.com for more details). My mind is separate from my body, Matt, and I would suggest that it is NOT material. Consciousness is spiritual and so is my mind. So, I differ with your monist worldview. You are obviously a materialist and this gives you your view of reality. Marxism is natural for a monist/materialist.
 
I, however, view the spiritual realm as ultimate. This makes me a Dualist (similar to Socrates). I view reality as an experience within TWO realms (the inner and the outer). So, I view a higher power (spiritual in nature) as logical and obvious. Thomas Jefferson and many of America's founding fathers had a similar view. We separated from England (our mother country) and adopted a Creator as the source of our rights and liberties.
 
You have rejected all this (which is your right and privilege). I, however, view the book of Job as a real message from our higher power that this message is real. Why don't you check out the above website as the dialogue on the issue of consciousness and the mind/body problem is dealt with by many experts (from Europe and the United States).
 
Kirk: Your rejection of Marxism is natural given your worldview. I agree with this and hope our planet does not adopt this mentality (and I don't think they will when informed). D
Matt Added Jun 22, 2017 - 5:50pm
There is no problem of the mind/body kind for me.
Goodbye.

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