GOP Congressman Shot During Congressional Baseball Practice

To quote John Lennon, I read the news today, oh boy.....

 

A gunman attacked a group of Republican Congressmen today while these Congressmen were practicing for the annual congressional baseball game.  From the reports that I'm reading, if not for the bravery of Capitol Hill policemen and policewomen it is likely that the shooter would have killed everyone present.  Two members of the police, a man and a woman, were injured during the attack.  I saw a report that the gunman died, thankfully (as far as I know) no one else has.  At least five people were injured, including Steve Scalise, the Republican House Whip.  He is in surgery as I write this.

 

From the reports coming through the gunman supported Bernie Sanders in the last election.  He reportedly wrote several anti-Republican messages on his Facebook page and also opposed the nomination of Hilary Clinton.

 

I struggle to put words together regarding this, though I think I need to.  This senseless act reminds me of how far things have gotten for both sides.  It also reminds me that violence never solves anything, it only leads to escalation and a desire for revenge.  What will come from this, I wonder?  Is there someone like this individual who believed the way to solve political problems was by shooting people he didn't know, but thinks the gun is best aimed at Democrats?  Is this what we've degenerated to?

 

I'm a liberal, always have been.  But, I like to think of myself as a thoughtful one that's driven by common sense.  I don't sweat the small stuff, to me equal rights and making sure that those who can vote have the opportunity is my focus.  I think liberals (like many conservatives) go too far in pushing things this country is not ready for.  I oppose them, just like I oppose those on the right that go too far pushing their agenda.  I didn't mind that people protested Trump's win, my main focus was keep it peaceful.  There were plans by Trump supporters to do the same if Clinton won, I would've supported them as well.

 

But, now things have gotten nasty and downright dangerous, even life-threatening.  Is this the tip of the downward spiral?  Are we just now seeing the beginnings of increasing acts of violence, of our political leaders lives at risk along with civilians?  I hope not.  I wish those who were hurt well, them and their families.  I hope they have a speedy recovery.

 

One other sad note:

I wondered why security wasn't better.  I was told that the protocol is to treat congressional members as ordinary citizens when they are out on activities like this.  It saddens me that those days are coming to an end.

Comments

George N Romey Added Jun 14, 2017 - 2:11pm
This divide will ultimately fail this country.  The ironic thing is that an HRC administration would not look that much different from the current Trump administration.  Both would advance the agenda of the neoliberal and deep state.  HRC would have just appeared a little more "liberal."
 
We've had nutcases before.  We should remember 1968 when Robert Kennedy and MLK were gun down.   None of this solves the very complex problems we face.
Leroy Added Jun 14, 2017 - 2:49pm
I question the efficacy of the security detail.  Maybe the are given too much credit.  I understand the gunman unloaded 50 rounds, reloading several times.  With a little damage as he did, he obviously wasn't a trained shooter.  No doubt he is one of the #NeverTrump nutcases out there.  We shouldn't be the least bit surprised at what happened.  Mr. Zhao made some predictions.  IMHO, it is just the logical conclusion based on all the raving lunatics out there that can accept the election results.  This Russian investigation just adds more fuel to the fire.
wsucram15 Added Jun 14, 2017 - 2:58pm
This has gone too far.  I dont like most of them, but shooting representatives with their kids at a baseball practice is a bit much, no matter who they are.  There were two other killings this week..not by people supporting Bernie or Hillary, one a cop, the other so far 11 people in SF.  Are those the extremists that value Trump? Come on...
 
People are going to die now...its gone too far.
Leroy Added Jun 14, 2017 - 3:33pm
"I dont like most of them, but shooting representatives with their kids at a baseball practice is a bit much, no matter who they are."
 
The shooter should have at least asked which ones brought their kids before shooting them.
Mike Haluska Added Jun 14, 2017 - 4:46pm
Remember back in October when the Democrats were all "concerned" that Trump supporters would not "accept" the results of the election?  If the months, weeks and days since November 8th have exposed anything, it is the blatant hypocrisy of the Democratic Party from Hillary Clinton to Chuck Schumer all the way down to that nitwit shooter.
 
I can't wait to hear how the shooter's favorite TV personality, Rachel Maddow, spins this into an "anti-gun control" rant.  The continual 24/7 Trump bitch session, Russia "investigation", Kathy Griffin's stunt and the NY Shakespeare portrayal of Trump as Julius Caesar getting stabbed (along with Melania) are not "coincidence" - they are the Democrats "Ginning Up" their radical base in hopes someone gets riled up enough to assassinate President Trump. 
 
This is no longer a political struggle - the Democrats don't give a crap who gets killed or hurt they want political power back and will stop at nothing to regain it.  The Republican leadership ought to grow a pair and suspend the "investigations" until somebody comes up with ACTUAL EVIDENCE!!!  If the Democrats insist on "investigations" - we start with Hillary and Bill Clinton, Comey, Lynch and Obama.  We at least have ACTUAL EVIDENCE of crimes being committed with them!!!
 
 
The Objective Observer Added Jun 14, 2017 - 5:02pm
I posted a simple message on this, just posts from the guy's Facebook page. I think that told the story better than anything else. Granted that this guy most likely had mental issues, but no doubt that the extreme political divide in this country was a motivating factor. The "Trump is a Traitor" post is telling and it is all that has been in the news from the media, that Trump is a traitor and needs to be impeached. The main stream media has blood on its hands.
Leroy Added Jun 14, 2017 - 5:28pm
No doubt if the shooter had better access, he would have went straight to the top.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 14, 2017 - 5:31pm
@ Mike Haluska:
 
"Remember back in October when the Democrats were all "concerned" that Trump supporters would not "accept" the results of the election?"
 
We had good reason to be.  The resident Snowflake-in-Chief threatened to contest the elections, Mike Walsh threatened to grab his musket and march on Washington and I saw this echoed by Trump supporters who wanted to march on Washington and hang all the Communists.
In a way I think we all got lucky that Trump got elected, I shudder to think about what would have happened with all those triggered Trumplings running around.
 
"If the months, weeks and days since November 8th have exposed anything, it is the blatant hypocrisy of the Democratic Party from Hillary Clinton"
 
Well, I'm willing to agree that Clinton blaming everyone but herself for losing the election is pretty pathetic.  She needs to go away.
 
"to Chuck Schumer"
 
Yes, because it's Chuck Shumer's job to kiss Trump's ass and his ring.  I'll remind you that the Republican Party played the opposition party thing to the hilt while Obama was president.  It's mind boggling to me why Republicans and Trumplings would expect the Democratic Party to play this out any different.
 
"all the way down to that nitwit shooter."
 
NO ONE supports what that crazed dumbass did.  DO NOT lay that on any of us.  I'll also remind you that hate crimes are on the rise since Trump's election.
Oh, remember this?
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/dan-bowman-trump-supporter-take-clinton-out

"I can't wait to hear how the shooter's favorite TV personality, Rachel Maddow,"
 
I haven't seen that one.  Link?
 
"spins this into an "anti-gun control" rant. The continual 24/7 Trump bitch session,"
 
Well, I don't like him.  I think he's nothing more than a conman who managed to con just the right amount of people in the right amount of states to vote for him.  He used the language of demagogues to stir up nationalism and fear to get himself elected.  I still can't believe people fell for the whole "forgotten man" shtick, he's a billionaire who  declared bankruptcy, a serial cheater and pussy grabber who is twice divorced but somehow the evangelicals love him (that is so jacked up) who is somehow tied up in Russia that thirty years ago would never have gotten elected.
BTW, I have a litmus test on religious people who darken my doorstep.  I ask them who they voted for, when they say "Trump" the last thing they here from me is "hypocrite" as I shut the door in their face.
 
"Russia "investigation","
 
LOL, yes, something that Trumplings avoid like the plague.  They don't want to hear it, it puts a bad taste in their mouth that their hero is possibly complicit with Russians.
I don't know how much Trump is involved, it's entirely possible that he never knew.  But, it's a fact that people close to him were involved in various ways.  
Let me ask you and the others:
Let's say that this wasn't Trump.  Let's say it was a Democrat, for example, Hilary Clinton. If this stuff was piling up around her, the possibility that Putin had his claws in her in some way or fashion, would you still be indifferent?
Be honest, now.
 
"Kathy Griffin's stunt and the NY Shakespeare portrayal of Trump as Julius Caesar getting stabbed (along with Melania) are not "coincidence" - "
 
Yes, all those things are in bad taste.  I don't agree with any of them.  It was right that Griffin was fired and it is fine by me if advertisers pull out of the play.
 
"they are the Democrats "Ginning Up" their radical base in hopes someone gets riled up enough to assassinate President Trump."
 
I have a two-part answer to the above statement:
1)  You are dead wrong.
2)  You need a larger tin foil hat.

"This is no longer a political struggle - the Democrats don't give a crap who gets killed"
 
WTF is wrong with you?
So, by the same logic I believe Trump and other dumbasses are stirring up the masses to exterminate Muslims and Hispanics in this country.
Got it.  You need a warm cup of tea, a big comfy blanket, a tin foil hat and a Valium.
 
 
"or hurt they want political power back and will stop at nothing to regain it."
 
You mean like the Republicans who swept to power in 2010 immediately passing voter suppression laws and gerrymandering the districts in states where they held majorities?  Well, then, then Democrats are in good co
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 14, 2017 - 5:34pm
" The Republican leadership ought to grow a pair and suspend the "investigations" until somebody comes up with ACTUAL EVIDENCE!!! If the Democrats insist on "investigations" - we start with Hillary and Bill Clinton, Comey, Lynch and Obama. We at least have ACTUAL EVIDENCE of crimes being committed with them!!!"
 
LOL
 
Uh, Oh.  Triggered Trumpling.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 14, 2017 - 5:45pm
I'm starting to regret posting this article.
 
I wanted to explain how I felt and why this disturbed me.  I took a break from history to do this.
 
From what I've seen so far by the comments it's turned into a "who's responsible" fest blaming the media and liberals for triggering this disturbed person into committing a heinous act.
 
I, nor anyone in their right minds, would encourage such a thing.  I abhor what Kathy Griffin did and the whole "stab Trump" thing irks me because it is ridiculous and really juvenile.
 
What this is turning into is one-upmanship, my need to answer ridiculous comments that make liberals and Democrats into bloodthirsty monsters who advocate killing....up to and including Trump.
 
This is nonsense.  No right minded person advocates that, be they Democrats or Republicans.  
 
Why don't we all show some respect for the victims on this day.  The people who were injured weren't Republicans in my eyes, they were victims of a senseless act.
The Objective Observer Added Jun 14, 2017 - 6:24pm
 Agree to a point Jeffrey Kelly but that Trump post clearly speaks to motivations and motivations are a fair topic. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 14, 2017 - 6:31pm
" Agree to a point Jeffrey Kelly but that Trump post clearly speaks to motivations and motivations are a fair topic. "
 
Sure.  But, the actions of a disturbed individual do not speak to the whole.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 14, 2017 - 7:00pm
 It's mind boggling to me why Republicans and Trumplings would expect the Democratic Party to play this out any different.-Because they're rightists and exist only to further their agendas, but should any other-leaning group assert themselves as they've done for over 8 years: "they're violent terrorists," look no farther here than "Rush HaHaHaluska" or Leroy for good rightist examples of "illogical" hatred on anything they think is "leftist." The rightists have even been all over the NY theatre troupe for producing a contemporized "Julius Caesar," with a Trump-appearing Julius.  Although I'd think more along the lines of "Richard III" like that done by Sir Ian Mckellan, a 30s facist-like redo. As OO noted: and motivations are a fair topic.   Motivations Do matter, but that wasn't the author's point. The author said in comment: The people who were injured weren't Republicans in my eyes, they were victims of a senseless act.-  Agreed. That was the point.
Gregory S. McNeill Added Jun 14, 2017 - 7:03pm
I feel the same way. I don't wish for ANYONE to be shot. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. My thoughts and prayers to the 3 Congressmen and 2 Policemen shot and for a speedy recovery.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 14, 2017 - 7:03pm
Thank you, Jeff.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 14, 2017 - 7:10pm
Thank you, Gregory.
Dino Manalis Added Jun 14, 2017 - 7:24pm
That's why stop; question; and search policing has to be enforced nationally to enable law enforcement to stop and question anyone about anything to stop; prevent; and resolve crimes.
John G Added Jun 15, 2017 - 3:47am
Manalis is a Nazi.
Utpal Patel Added Jun 15, 2017 - 6:36am
“This senseless act reminds me of how far things have gotten for both sides.”
 
The GOPers were engaged in soft ball practice when they were attacked by a deranged Bernie gunman, how is their behavior evidence of how far things have gotten?  It really doesn’t say much about how far things have gotten on the other side, after all, it was a lone gunmen.  Or are you the type of person that blames all Muslims every time a single Muslim kills people?
Leroy Added Jun 15, 2017 - 9:27am
It's easy to declare this guy is a nutcase and agree that what he did was wrong.  If he had survived, I am sure everyone would have agreed, except perhaps Michka/John, that he should have been punished.  However, the idea that he is a lone wolf acting in isolation is incorrect.  After the first bombing of the World Trade Center, the Democrats were quick to say that the perpetrators should be caught and punished.  They were also quick to say they acted alone and it had nothing to do with terrorism and Islamic Fundamentalism or Muslims.  These people, as with the final bombing of the World Trade Center, were acting on ideology.  It is the ideology that encouraged them.  That is what we need to be concerned with, not the individuals.  What I hear here is that it is just about the individual.  You can't separate the two.  It is the constant dribble that Trump is evil and must be taken out at all cost that is the problem.  There are idiots that believe 6 billion people will perish because Trump pulled us out of the Paris Accord.  They can justify eliminating Trump on this rhetoric.  Make no mistake about it; there are people out there encouraging people to take Trump out.  They won't do it themselves, but they will surely encourage others in hopes that some nutcase will do it.  They can then wash their hands of the whole matter.  They almost got part of their wish.
 
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 15, 2017 - 9:50am
@ Leroy
"That is what we need to be concerned with, not the individuals. What I hear here is that it is just about the individual."
 
It is about the individual.
 
"You can't separate the two."
 
I do.  Are you going to blame rock music for encouraging kids to shoot up schools?  Are you going to blame violence on TV for crazed employees shooting up businesses?
Leroy, this was a disturbed man.  He latched onto something like disturbed people do to commit crimes like this.
 
"It is the constant dribble that Trump is evil and must be taken out at all cost that is the problem."
 
Oh, he's not evil.  He's just a con man.
Also, do you see any Democratic leader telling anyone to take Trump out?
No, what they want is expose any possible misdeeds this man committed.
Yeah, I know.  Kathy Griffin....who Democrats almost universally condemned for her actions.  I did, too.
 
"There are idiots that believe 6 billion people will perish because Trump pulled us out of the Paris Accord."
 
That's a "them" problem.  I have no doubt there will be serious environmental issues if we don't correct our ways.  I sure can't make predictions on the body count because there are too many unknowns.
 
"They can justify eliminating Trump on this rhetoric."
 
Who is "they?"  Is that a "them" thing, a "other" thing?
 
"Make no mistake about it; there are people out there encouraging people to take Trump out."
 
Who?
If you have knowledge of a possible crime it is your duty to report it.
 
"They won't do it themselves, but they will surely encourage others in hopes that some nutcase will do it."
 
"They," again.  If you have knowledge of a possible conspiracy to cause harm to the president it is your duty to report it.
 
"They"
 
Is that a (((them))) thing again?
 
"can then wash their hands of the whole matter. They almost got part of their wish."
 
That's funny, I don't remember seeing any reports that Trump or Pence were at the scene or anywhere close.  Were they present?
George N Romey Added Jun 15, 2017 - 10:19am
We have a divided country and an economic system that is working poorly for 80% to 90% of Americans.  People get stressed and frustrated and those that are unstable lash out in horrible ways.  We can expect to see this kind of behavior from both sides, sad indeed.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 15, 2017 - 10:29am
George, I agree.
Leroy Added Jun 15, 2017 - 11:15am
Jeffrey, you have a way of rationalizing everything.  People will die because of similar attitudes.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 15, 2017 - 11:24am
@Leroy:
"Jeffrey, you have a way of rationalizing everything. People will die because of similar attitudes."
 
No, Leroy, I do not.  What I am unwilling to do is blame the collective for the actions of a disturbed individual.
Should I blame all Trump supporters and Republicans for the acts of racism I see posted everyday?  I don't, maybe I should.  Apparently according to you and others like you I should.
wsucram15 Added Jun 15, 2017 - 12:48pm
First Leroy..lose the sarcasm.
Second Mike, Stop it...people like yourself DO NOT represent ALL Trump supporters.  Yeah they might jump on this also, but you are personally going too far.  The election is over...I tell the progressives who bring up the 39 state election vote thing, the same thing..ITS OVER! LET IT GO..  Investigations are fine..usually they find nothing, anyway. If it does, then something is wrong.
But let this go between people. That is just hate.
 
You guys arent around DC..lately because of my knee and fractured foot, I have not been for the past month.
But I have seen so much venom spit at both sides that its disgusting, it makes this site look like a playground. The people feeding it are the elected officials.   ITS SAD IT TOOK SOMEONE GETTING SHOT TO SHUT PEOPLE UP FOR A MOMENT. 
On the Same day, almost at the same time a disgruntled UPS right wing extremist killed 3 people at work...I dont see any outrage at that.  Last week a cop was shot by another extremist.  IT DOESNT MATTER ANYMORE WHO IS DOING THIS..the DIVISION AND HATE have to stop.
 
I agree with Jeffrey above.."What I am unwilling to do is blame the collective for the actions of a disturbed individual"   this is not a collective stance.   I have marched against Trump but would stand in front of his face and tell him why, in fact I have written letters to his office, to that effect. I have marched with thousands of people who didnt shoot anyone, some I actually know personally.  Some I met at his inauguration, you know because its the "American thing to do".
 
Thousands upon thousands of people have these issues with both sides of the fence...yet only ONE person acted on it. ITS NOT A PROGRESSIVE OR BERNIE THING... It takes one person to go too far and chaos erupts...we have been on that edge for awhile, whats next?  We need to stop this before more people are killed.
Leroy Added Jun 15, 2017 - 1:02pm
"First Leroy..lose the sarcasm."
 
Where's the sarcasm?
wsucram15 Added Jun 15, 2017 - 1:19pm
Also Leroy..
All websites are monitored, I give you my word on that.  Now guessing people want Trump to"eliminate Trump" is one thing but to accuse and give motivation for such a high crime is probably a flag. Dont know but Im guessing at this point in time..yeah it is.
I am sure many people would like to see what you are saying..but it will only be that single crazy person that tries to do it...
Stop the hate because you are feeding it as well, with your own form of hate.  If you dont like liberals, then find out why they feel the way they do, instead of bashing them for it. 
I did that with Trump supporters, its fascinating.
Leroy Added Jun 15, 2017 - 1:28pm
WSU, I'm quite sure all the government agencies out there are keenly aware of the situation and the veiled and not so veiled threats out there.  Breitbart has a list of Hollywood advocating violence against the Republicans and Congress.  Bash the source, if you will, but you cannot deny what was said.  If you think Kathy Griffith and the NYC park episodes aren't pushing an agenda, then you are just naive.  Maybe they don't wish death, but they would certainly celebrate it.
wsucram15 Added Jun 15, 2017 - 2:45pm
Ok Kathy Griffin went too far. The Caesar play with the Donald look alike, is stupid...its just dumb.  But people like that kind of crap, I dont. If I want to go see a play..it will be something on broadway with some kind of value to me personally or just something that seems enjoyable.
However, did you complain when Obama was questioned on his birthright? Michelle Obama was called an Ape?  George W Bush stupid?
I could go on and on..
This is afforded in the 1st Amendment.   We have to allow for things that sometimes we really do not agree with. I doubt the play will be open long...its supporters have all pulled out.
Mike Haluska Added Jun 15, 2017 - 2:48pm
Just WHO has been demanding "investigations" without any evidence?  Who has been in total control of the Mainstream Media?  Who has been making excuses for losing the election and blaming it on the "Russians"?  Who has been rioting on college campuses?  Who has been shouting down or demanding speakers be cancelled/shut up/boycotted? 
 
Listen up "progressives" - adults are back in control of the country.  The Democratic Party is on the verge of irrelevance because of the "progressive wing". 
- Their last weapon of pushing through their agenda (SCOTUS) is now 5-4 Constitutionalist, with 3 liberal judges retiring soon and their appointments made by President Trump making SCOTUS 8 - 1 Constitutionalist. 
- 25 Democratic Senators are up for re-election in Red State - making a "Filibuster Proof" Senate all but done. 
- The Mainstream Media (Democratic Party's version of "PRAVD") is bleeding red ink and has credibility ratings in single digits. 
-You have NO CREDIBLE CANDIDATE TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT IN 2020. 
- Your stupid delay tactics are boring and NO EVIDENCE is ever produced. 
- The only people that think this is a serious investigation are "progressives", the rest of us are going back to work in the growing economy. 
- Your younger voters (Millennials) are completely clueless thanks to the crappy education (rather - indoctrination) system you gave them.  On election day 95% of them will be passed out in their parent's basement instead of voting.
- Union rank and file will abandon the Democratic Party in droves as the Democrats propose more economic poison like high taxes, more regulation, more welfare, etc. 
- The Welfare State's remaining inhabitants won't be large enough to vote in a dog catcher, much less a Senator, Representative or President. 
- Those lifted out of the Welfare State will NEVER vote Democrat again after awakening to the realization that the Democrats exploited and abused them for decades.
wsucram15 Added Jun 15, 2017 - 2:51pm
Mike shut up...seriously.  You have points to make can you make them in lower case non bold writing please.
You are not the utmost authority on politics on this site or any other site. Its your opinion and you are screaming it at people.
Slow down and talk...
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 15, 2017 - 3:14pm
@Leroy
"Breitbart has a list of Hollywood advocating violence against the Republicans and Congress."
 
Yes, because anything attached to the name "Steve Bannon" is an impeccable, unbiased source.
 
"Bash the source, if you will, but you cannot deny what was said."
 
I will.
BTW, does Breitbart keep a list of those Republicans who advocated violence like Ted Nugent, Rand Paul, Joe Walsh and even Trump himself?  Where can I find that list on Breitbart, Leroy?
 
"If you think Kathy Griffith and the NYC park episodes aren't pushing an agenda, then you are just naive."
 
What I'd call that is really bad taste.
 
"Maybe they don't wish death, but they would certainly celebrate it."
 
WTF is wrong with you, Leroy?  How many progressives, stars, Democrats, whatever, did you see celebrating the sick action yesterday, Leroy?  Please provide links to any sort of proof regarding this, plesase.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 15, 2017 - 6:23pm
How can wsucram15 and Jeffrey use such harsh and hateful words about wonderful, brilliant people like Leroy and Mikey?  Leroy sez he knows everything, doesn't need to prove a word, since his is solid gold! So does Mikey.  See how good it is to fully embrace Love, Love, Love!
Jeff Michka Added Jun 15, 2017 - 6:27pm
What I am unwilling to do is blame the collective for the actions of a disturbed individual"- But folks like Leroy and Mikey say you should.  Probably should issue a formal apology on behalf of the shooter to them both, He musta been a commie and Jewish, afterall. Love, Love, Love.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 15, 2017 - 6:47pm
Worse, apparently he supported Bernie Sanders.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 15, 2017 - 7:09pm
Jeffrey Kelly sez: Worse, apparently he supported Bernie Sanders- I'm not sure where he got it, since no cite, but fear not!! We've got Dino TAKING THE BEAT ON THIS ONE for the WB rightist crowd.  Dino! *sigh* the insight, depth and brilliance of this soul.  Love, Love, Love extends all the way to apparent fake news and those perps that deploy it.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 15, 2017 - 8:08pm
LOL
Jeff Michka Added Jun 15, 2017 - 9:18pm
Am I going too far?
Leroy Added Jun 15, 2017 - 10:03pm
“I have concerns about some of the language that is being used because I saw this myself in the late 70s in San Francisco,” said the then-speaker of the House, referencing the infamous assassination of a city councilman and mayor in the city.
 
“This kind of rhetoric was very frightening and … it created a climate in which violence took place,” she said. “I wish that we would all, again, curb our enthusiasm in some of the statements that are made.”
 
--Nancy Pelosi, 2009
 
Guess it only applies to Republicans.

Read
 
more h
 
 
ere: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article156387164.html#storylink=cpy
Patrick Writes Added Jun 16, 2017 - 1:49am
" Is there someone like this individual who believed the way to solve political problems was by shooting people he didn't know, but thinks the gun is best aimed at Democrats?"
 
If it's not been said already, the guy that shot Gabby Giffords in the head when she was a Congresswoman. 
Leroy Added Jun 16, 2017 - 8:20am
Patrick, there is very little parallel between Gabby Giffords and the current shooting.  She just happened to be Democrat.  Some blame Sarah Palin for a map with cross-hairs showing her location.  There is no indication the shooter ever saw it.  The shooter was a confirmed psycho.  To my knowledge, the shooter wasn't targeting Democrats.
Mike Haluska Added Jun 16, 2017 - 1:25pm
wsucram -
 
Does bold/italics really hurt your ears/eyesight?  Who are you to tell anyone to "shut up"?  You are free to skip right past my posts as I am yours.  What I would appreciate is you actually responding to the points I make.     
wsucram15 Added Jun 16, 2017 - 1:40pm
your point is mute, you dont shoot human beings unless you are A) at war  B) are defending yourself C) have something lose in your thought pattern  D) are completely insane or E) all of the above.
Most people have a hard time with something like that, unless they have somehow rationalized that its the right thing to do somehow.  I have no problem killing for food or for defense.  But I will not shoot a person because they made me mad. What? 
 Therefore anyone who shoots another human being has pretty much lost his mind or is on his way there.  Being methodical does not give indication you are sane..I would argue to the contrary.  He had intent and planned this, it made sense to him.  Maybe he thought it would change things which for a hot minute it might.  Much like a Charles Manson like person who wanted a war in which he would come out on top.  This guy wanted all this to stop..who knows what he thought would the outcome would be.   Scarier still, how many more are out there like him, either way?    I-N-S-A-N-E.
The hate speech has to stop...just because you can handle it, perhaps not everyone can is the point!
wsucram15 Added Jun 16, 2017 - 1:53pm
Mike you yell at everyone on here IN ALL CAPS AND IN BOLD that disagrees with you.  When you want to speak to me..I am reasonable and you know that, stop being such an ass.
I will speak to you and address your points.  But do me a favor stop spitting out Trumps tweets and past history.  100 million dollars has been spent on trying to nail the Clintons.
Lets get through the Russian hacking on the elections, lets see what happened.  Factual or not, I want to know as does 80% of America now. Then we can move on to other issues.  As I have repeatedly said to you, repeatedly...if someone did something wrong and we can prove it, lets put them on trial and punish them for it.
So lets finish this and move on to issues that need handled in a Congressional cycle.  There will be plenty of scandals, I am sure of that. 
Mike Haluska Added Jun 16, 2017 - 4:51pm
wsucram - I promise to only use bold/italics to differentiate my point from the statements the person I am referring to, just to make it easier to understand who is who. 
 
So, to your point about Russia interfering with our election.  There is no need to involve both Houses of Congress, the FBI and the DOJ when there has been no evidence of anything inappropriate by the Trump campaign or the Russians.  I have no problem with an intelligence agency investigating and gathering any facts or evidence for a reasonable amount of time - independent of Congress. 
 
What we have here is accusations made by the loser of an election with no actual evidence of proof - period.  All we actually know is that the DNC computers (not the Federal system) had been hacked as shown by Wikileaks.  Wikileaks has offered to provide proof that their source was not Russia.  Since it was disclosed that the DNC computer system and Hillary Clinton's private server were poorly secured (e.g. John Podesta's password was "password") it's not surprising they would try and deflect attention away from their own incompetence.
As I stated, this practice of "holding investigations to find evidence for further investigations" is Unconstitutional and just wrong.  If all it takes to bring the nation's government to a halt is an accusation, then nothing will ever get done. 
Suppose your neighbor decided to go to the local police and accuse you of a serious crime and had no evidence.  Despite this lack of proof, the police and district attorney's office started interrogating you at home and work, questioned your neighbors, etc. for months on end.  You'll have to spend tens of thousands (maybe more) on attorneys and even if you're exonerated people will still mistrust and your reputation may be ruined. 
This is an extremely powerful weapon that incumbent politicians would absolutely love to have at their disposal!  Anyone who challenges their stance or run for office against them has no chance once the incumbent sends their "investigative attack dogs" after them.  Don't you find it curious that neither incumbent Democrats nor incumbent Republicans are protesting the use of this unlawful practice???
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 16, 2017 - 5:04pm
Yawn.  Another Trumpling denying the whole "Russian" thing because it is damaging to their hero.
 
I repeat my question to Mike H. and Leroy:
If this was a Democrat instead of Trump, would you complain about an investigation?
 
Leroy Added Jun 16, 2017 - 7:57pm
Jeffrey, it's getting to the point where the president can't take care of the people's business.  If they feel they need to conduct an investigation in the background, then let them.  But this public trying of Trump is idiotic.  It has one purpose: get rid of Trump at any cost.  It is not Democratic or Republican.  Republicans are just as much of a problem.  They could put an end to it.  Pelosi recognized the problem in 2009.  Too bad she and the rest can't recognize it now.
wsucram15 Added Jun 16, 2017 - 8:06pm
I happen to believe the 17 intelligence agencies including foreign agencies that would disagree with you on Russian meddling in the election. 
Something happened Mike, to what degree IDK , but I want to know.  You cant know nothing happened unless you check out any suspicions. I dont understand the objections, if everyone is innocent then protecting our democracy should be the most important thing and everything should be opened up for that purpose. Period. I also prefer this independent of Congress, but they don't. I have spoken with Paul Ryan, Mike...and this is how he and McConnell want it.
Is it going to change anything with the current election..NO.
Will it prevent something else, hopefully.
 
Now I dont care about Clinton, except to say that if this was an unfair election, she was treated pretty shitty by 62 million Americans. 
I do not think this was brought on through the intelligence agencies because of Clinton.  Many people dont like her either.  I know I took place in a good deal of the protesting on this matter and many there were Trump supporters, Bernie Supporters and indifferent to Clinton.   You guys listen to too much news bullshit, over and over and over.  Comey even said it in his testimony, one of the stories just was not true.  I think it was the Washington Post, it was off on some dates I believe.  
Ive gone out and listened to both sides of this mess, Ive talked to Trump supporters, protestors and Congress people. This is insanity right now. 
Believe me I understand more about attorneys and careers than you will ever know.
Actually an investigation did happen to me once...not a neighbor but a kid in recovery I was helping who had relapsed. I had to throw him out.  He thought it would be cool to call an anonymous tip in about a drug dealer at my house.  Now my mother was in hospice at home at the time so caregivers came and went at all times of the day and night.  I came at various hours because I was finance, budget and HR in a 100 million dollar company during that time.  They logged this as drug traffic.
My son smoked pot and left stems in my trash with my mail.  Yeah big drug dealer me...it cost me over 10,000 + to save my house. I had to explain it to my boss who had to keep it quiet or I would have lost my job.  I was NEVER CHARGED, not even a ticket.  But they still tried to take my house over pot stems.  I had to hire a Constitutional lawyer from DC and I have a law degree..and the warrant wasnt even for me it was bullshit.  Whatever rights you THINK you have, you dont.
Dont talk to me about the law, what is legal, is subjective to the better argument. I know what its like to have EVERY PIECE of your life investigated. To this day (and I do not do drugs) I never put out my mail in the trash, and when I shred my paper, I take it somewhere else to dump it.   I tried to sue, good luck with that...no damages, as in tortuous law.  What they did was legal..no judge will overturn another judges warrant on a case like that.  So dont talk to me about what I know.  Because I know more that you do about all of this shit.  Both in experience and education.
 
These people are investigating a man  who has been suspected of serious crimes most of his life, under RICO and other federal statutes. Some of his team the same, you need to do some personal research on these people. I suspect mostly the $$$ finances, which he runs his mouth about too much, which BTW, is most of his problem AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN.  He has been connected with multiple crime syndicates in various countries for years.  I tried to tell you this before the election( i even did a huge amount of research on this for YOU).   Now they have him to investigate by a very thorough man and a team of highly specialized people.  They are going to get him for anything they can..ARE YOU KIDDING ME MIKE?   Come into the real world, the rest is fluff.
 
You can believe what you want..unless he gets a MUCH better lawyer (this one is connected with Russians and lost many cases for him) they will nail him on something.  This has nothing to do with Republican or Democrat..get real.   I sure as shit dont want Mike Pence as President or Paul Ryan.   So hopefully Trump is proven to be a big mouth like I think he is..and this is just one more embarrassment. All that will be damaged is his pride.  His cabinet is already shot to hell...they are ruined.
wsucram15 Added Jun 16, 2017 - 8:17pm
Let me rephrase about the cabinet..the ones that arent filthy rich anyway, will just write books. But in DC, I doubt they will do much..we will have to see. Priebus seems to be getting a following although charges were filed against him with the bar association for impeding the FBI investigation back in February.
Leroy Added Jun 16, 2017 - 9:59pm
I was in the doctor's office the day the shooting happened.  There was a man there wearing a t-shirt that said, "Get up. Get down. Get funky!". I'm 92% sure sure he was a Democrat.  He blamed it on karma and reference ObamaCare.  They were messing with his healthcare.  In other words, the Republicans deserve to be shot.  It on that one funky individual to carry out the wishes of the people around them.  But, no, the people who encourage this violence accept no responsibility.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 16, 2017 - 10:05pm
Leroy whines irrationally: But, no, the people who encourage this violence accept no responsibility. - Oh you mean like WB rightists, too, eh, Leroy?  Or like you of "pure soul," exempt.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 16, 2017 - 10:56pm
@Leroy:
"Jeffrey, it's getting to the point where the president can't take care of the people's business."
 
It's probably for the best, he'll just muck things up and realize he can't declare bankruptcy to get out of it.  Or get divorced again.  Or tweet his way out of trouble.
 
"If they feel they need to conduct an investigation in the background, then let them."
 
What do you think they are doing?
 
"But this public trying of Trump is idiotic."
 
Um, he's the president.  That's a part of the job description, getting tried in public.  It happens to all Presidents, is Trump some sort of special case deserving of special treatment?
 
"It has one purpose: get rid of Trump at any cost."
 
Well, sorry, it's sort of a Trump problem. BTW, back when everyone thought Clinton was going to win was it Nunes who bragged that they had enough on her to keep investigations going for two years?  Asaaaawwww, it sucks when it happens to the giant, orange ass.
 
 
"It is not Democratic or Republican. Republicans are just as much of a problem. They could put an end to it. Pelosi recognized the problem in 2009. Too bad she and the rest can't recognize it now."
 
Yes, I suppose it's the Democrats who need to shake off what the Republicans did for the previous eight years.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 16, 2017 - 11:03pm
@Leroy:
"I was in the doctor's office the day the shooting happened. There was a man there wearing a t-shirt that said, "Get up. Get down. Get funky!". I'm 92% sure sure he was a Democrat. He blamed it on karma and reference ObamaCare. They were messing with his healthcare. In other words, the Republicans deserve to be shot."
 
Is that what he said, Leroy?  Republicans deserve to be shot?
 
"It on that one funky individual to carry out the wishes of the people around them. But, no, the people who encourage this violence accept no responsibility."
 
 
So, I should judge all Trump supporters on the actions of the one:
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.www.complex.com/life/2016/11/trump-supporter-racist-rant-against-muslim-uber-driver
 
John Minehan Added Jun 17, 2017 - 7:14am
Leroy Added Jun 17, 2017 - 7:19am
I'm sure the Germans said the same thing about the NAZIs.  Just punish the guy who opened the valve.
John Minehan Added Jun 17, 2017 - 7:20am
.."What I am unwilling to do is blame the collective for the actions of a disturbed individual"  
 
I agree.  But I also think you have to ask: How pervasive is the meme (on both sides of the political spectrum) that violence can solve the problem? 
John Minehan Added Jun 17, 2017 - 7:27am
"I'm sure the Germans said the same thing about the NAZIs.  Just punish the guy who opened the valve."
 
Interesting historical question: what did people who opposed opening the valve (someone like Schindler, for example or the families of people like von Stauffenberg or Bonhoeffer) actually think about that? 
wsucram15 Added Jun 17, 2017 - 1:16pm
Sorry to the author about the rant.  I had to answer Mike.
The only answer to this situation is for people to recognize there is a terrible divide and decide not to feed into it.  
Leroy Added Jun 17, 2017 - 3:33pm
Glad to see that you found your meds.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 17, 2017 - 8:00pm
Leroy, the disposable, empty plastic bag sez: Glad to see that you found your meds.- Great response.  Why haven't you been penning stuff about "If I was there, I'D HAVE SHOT THE LIBERAL DOWN," which is your usual gun waving bilge.  Someone actually took the time to reply to HaHaHaluska ravings, and disclose what she did, and this is your "studied" reply?  Think this best fits under "Why we're having troubles," but of course as a rightist that needs to constantly vent, it's okay, right.  Well as much as ol Mikey is a complete hypocrite, you're trying to take the number 1 spot.  Seems WB is awash with clowns like you right (far right), as is the nation.  Go away.  Wave your gun at some storm surge, or shoot a trangendered person in a public restroom, you'll be a rightist hero.  Maybe you can be appointed as governor of North Carolina.
John G Added Jun 18, 2017 - 3:01am
I happen to believe the 17 intelligence agencies including foreign agencies that would disagree with you on Russian meddling in the election
That's not true though. They didn't agree. Only the CIA and FBI did and the NSA was neutral.
Believing the CIA and FBI is worse than naive.
wsucram15 Added Jun 18, 2017 - 4:53pm
Well..ok then. Im going by what Congress said and testimony since that time in which everyone has agreed on Russian interference. K?
Now I dont have much faith in our government or Congress, but do prefer it to Putin's rule or word..also hope thats ok with you... John G. Not naive, just relying on other sources as well that support this. You think what you like.
Mike Haluska Added Jun 19, 2017 - 11:54am
Jeffrey - my answer to your question:
 
"If this was a Democrat instead of Trump, would you complain about an investigation?"
 
is yes!  This is America where we don't initiate investigations unless we have evidence first.  This should be important to anyone of any political affiliation because although this Trump "investigation" may be fun for you now, sooner or later the shoe is on the other foot.  The truth is I don't anyone as far as I can throw a battleship with a broken arm with this kind of power. 
 
Jeffrey - now I have a question for you: 
 
Can you in good conscience support the continuance of this "investigation to find evidence to justify an investigation" when there was never any evidence of collusion to begin with and none has been found in almost a year?
Mike Haluska Added Jun 19, 2017 - 12:07pm
wsucram -
 
Thanks for your honest assessment.  Whatever happened as far as any "foreign interference", that can certainly be investigated on an ongoing basis provided:
 
1) It is kept strictly confidential
2) It is confined to strict parameters
3) No US Citizens are investigated without proper court authorization
4) Congress is able to conduct its business uninterrupted unless some tangible evidence of a crime by a government official is found
 
With all of the leaks to the press it is obvious that the first requirement is not possible in today's partisan environment.  The Democrats would love to invalidate the 2016 election but that is just a wet dream.  Their real objective is as Chuck Schumer has plainly stated - delay and obstruct damned near anything the Trump Administration wants to accomplish. 
 
In a few months when nothing actionable is discovered and the economy continues to improve, this will have run out of gas and the Democrats will have set themselves up for more internal strife.  The perception that they are obstructionists and the division between the "progressives" and the traditional working class Democrats ( the former "Reagan Democrats") will result in another landslide election in 2018 for the Republicans.  After 2018, the Republicans will have a "filibuster proof" majority in the House, Senate and the Supreme Court - making the Trump Agenda impossible to stop.
Mike Haluska Added Jun 19, 2017 - 12:13pm
wsucram -
 
You are exaggerating by claiming that Trump has been prosecuted for RICO charges.  Many Trump haters have clamored for RICO because they had nothing else to use as an excuse.  In any case, he has never been accused of or convicted of a felony.  Lots of people as wealthy as Trump have their tax returns audited, it doesn't make them criminals.  
Mike Haluska Added Jun 19, 2017 - 12:21pm
wsucram - as far as "Russian Interference" in our election, please keep in mind that the US has on multiple occasions directly interfered with the elections of other nations and has tried to assassinate foreign leaders (e.g. Fidel Castro).  So before we get all "high and might" about spying and interfering, we should take a long, hard look in the mirror.
 
For decades, the US wiretapped the USSR by tapping into an underwater cable that stretched across the Atlantic (before satellite communications).  We knew everything the Soviets were doing militarily and strategically - we may as well have had a tap on the Soviet Premier's intercom.  If you want to learn more Google "Operation Ivy". 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 19, 2017 - 1:51pm
@Mike Haluska:
"Jeffrey - my answer to your question:

"If this was a Democrat instead of Trump, would you complain about an investigation?"

is yes! This is America where we don't initiate investigations unless we have evidence first. This should be important to anyone of any political affiliation because although this Trump "investigation" may be fun for you now, sooner or later the shoe is on the other foot. The truth is I don't anyone as far as I can throw a battleship with a broken arm with this kind of power."
 
Very well.  In good faith, I will accept your answer.


"Jeffrey - now I have a question for you:

Can you in good conscience support the continuance of this "investigation to find evidence to justify an investigation" when there was never any evidence of collusion to begin with and none has been found in almost a year?"
 
Are you not paying attention?
But, yes, I will continue to support this investigation.  If nothing else it will lead to stronger safeguards of our voting practices and our Democratic institutions.
 
I'm going to answer some of your other comments here:
 
You do realize that the USSR and the US were engaged in a Cold War, right?  That both sides spied on each other.  
 
It it really does matter to me, Mike, to what extent the Russians meddled in the last election.  No, I do not accept the BS Trump and his supporters say about us not being so innocent.  I don't care, its irrelevant.  I don't think Trump got elected due to Russian interference, I think he managed to con the right amount of people in the right amount of states to vote for him.  But, the fact that Russians hacked 39 states troubles me deeply and we need to figure out how this happened.  We also need to figure out Russian ties to whoever and however high it goes.  Period.
Mike Haluska Added Jun 19, 2017 - 2:12pm
Jeff -
 
So you're OK with someone being able to accuse you of some heinous crime, having you "investigated" with no evidence, interviewing your employer, co-workers, neighbors, friends, relatives ad infinitum???  You see no potential for abuse by powerful people???  Who is going to challenge authority when those in power can simply put anyone challenging them under investigation for anything from child pornography to treason???
 
If you want to investigate Russian "involvement" in the last election - great!  There is no need to stop the government of the entire country to do so.  If the Russians pulled some bullshit, then punish the Russians and the stupid officials of the Democratic Party for being idiots and not taking action back in March when they found out they were hacked and punish the State Department and Hillary Clinton for having Clinton's "private server" directly connected to a secured federal government system. 
 
None of this has anything to do with the Trump Campaign or the Trump Administration.  Not one single piece of evidence of collusion with Russia has been brought forth against Trump or his campaign staff.  Why don't you demand "investigations" of Democrats with "Russian ties"?  If we brought forth every politician (D or R) who had a conversation with a Russian official, this stupidity would never end!
 
One more question for you to answer honestly:
 
If the Russians had hacked into the RNC computer would you be so anxious to "get to the bottom" of every Democratic politician who may have had an interest or benefitted from it?    
Mike Haluska Added Jun 19, 2017 - 2:23pm
Jeff - a skeptical person would question your real motives for continuing this "investigation".  Why are you so obsessed with finding out who in the Trump administration "colluded"?  And "colluded" to do what, exactly?  If you want to fix a fight then you go to the favorite and get them to take a dive, you don't go to the underdog and bribe him to do something he will do anyway! 
 
I have asked dozens of Clinton supporters the same questions I asked you and never get a rational answer.  The shock of losing that election just won't go away for a lot of people and they can't look in the mirror and admit they just lost.  Just like your rationalization above:
 
"I don't think Trump got elected due to Russian interference, I think he managed to con the right amount of people in the right amount of states to vote for him."
 
Maybe Trump got elected because not enough people got "conned" by Hillary Clinton - has that possibility ever occurred to you???  Of course not!  The last person to admit he has been taken by a Con Artist is the guy who got conned! 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 19, 2017 - 2:27pm
@Mike Haluska:
"Jeff -

So you're OK with someone being able to accuse you of some heinous crime, having you "investigated" with no evidence, interviewing your employer, co-workers, neighbors, friends, relatives ad infinitum???"
 
Again, you are not paying attention.  There is ample evidence of some sort of collusion, we just don't know how far yet.
Also, Trump attempted to interfere with James Comey over Flynn.  Are you not concerned about this, even if Trump had nothing to do with Russia?
 
"You see no potential fo abuse by powerful people??? Who is going to challenge authority when those in power can simply put anyone challenging them under investigation for anything from child pornography to treason???"
 
I believe it was Nunes who said that If Clinton won the Republicans had enough material to investigate her for two years.  How do you feel about that?

"If you want to investigate Russian "involvement" in the last election - great! There is no need to stop the government of the entire country to do so."
 
Who says that it has?  Trump is just a shitty president who can't figure out how to govern.  Maybe Trump should've thought this through.
 
"If the Russians pulled some bullshit, then punish the Russians"
 
There are punishments put into place, those sanctions were put in by Obama.  
 
"and the stupid officials of the Democratic Party for being idiots and not taking action back in March when they found out they were hacked"
 
So, you want to punish victims of a crime?????
 
"and punish the State Department and Hillary Clinton for having Clinton's "private server" directly connected to a secured federal government system."
 
Already investigated, Mike.  

"None of this has anything to do with the Trump Campaign or the Trump Administration. Not one single piece of evidence of collusion with Russia has been brought forth against Trump or his campaign staff."
 
Wow, you really haven't paid attention.
 
"Why don't you demand "investigations" of Democrats with "Russian ties"? If we brought forth every politician (D or R) who had a conversation with a Russian official, this stupidity would never end!"
 
There is nothing wrong with talking to Russian officials.  You have to disclose those conversations and not lie about them.

"One more question for you to answer honestly:

If the Russians had hacked into the RNC computer would you be so anxious to "get to the bottom" of every Democratic politician who may have had an interest or benefitted from it?"
 
 
Yes.  For the reasons I gave above.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 19, 2017 - 2:59pm
@Mike Haluska:
"Jeff - a skeptical person would question your real motives for continuing this "investigation". Why are you so obsessed with finding out who in the Trump administration "colluded"?"
 
Uh, because it concerns me that an elected official colluded with a foreign power in order to get elected.  It also concerns me if people close to that official colluded in order to get him elected.
 
"And "colluded" to do what, exactly?"
 
We are talking about a quid quo pro situation where Russian officials actively worked to get Trump elected in order to receive favors.  Those include getting sanctions reduced or dropped, recognition of Russia's land grab in Eastern Ukraine, the weakening of NATO and the EU, etc.  Russia actively assists nationalist candidates throughout Europe, they want a weaker or non-existent EU to do business with.
 
 
"If you want to fix a fight then you go to the favorite and get them to take a dive, you don't go to the underdog and bribe him to do something he will do anyway!"
 
It's called "insurance."  


"I have asked dozens of Clinton supporters the same questions I asked you and never get a rational answer. The shock of losing that election just won't go away for a lot of people and they can't look in the mirror and admit they just lost."
 
Well, it was a shock.  Admit it, it shocked you, too.
 
"Just like your rationalization above:

"I don't think Trump got elected due to Russian interference, I think he managed to con the right amount of people in the right amount of states to vote for him."

Maybe Trump got elected because not enough people got "conned" by Hillary Clinton - has that possibility ever occurred to you??? Of course not! The last person to admit he has been taken by a Con Artist is the guy who got conned!"
 
 
No, Mike.  I see bewildered Trumplings now realizing what this all means.  See, I want Trumpcare passed, I want Trump's budget passed, I want Scott Pruitt to gut the EPA and Betsy DeVos to gut education.
 
Do you know why?
Because I'm tired of being outraged.  I want all of those things to happen so that all of those consequences hit home.   Lose your funding for something that's important to you and you vote Republican and voted for Trump?
Fuck you.
Lose your insurance because of Trumpcare and you voted Republican and Trump?
Fuck you.
Lose your food stamps and your daycare subsidy and you voted Republican and Trump?
Fuck you.
See, I'm tired.  I've had enough.  I want all those things to happen.  Sad, huh?
Mike Haluska Added Jun 19, 2017 - 4:37pm
Jeff - you pay attention to totally unfounded allegations with no evidence and ignore the obvious factual ones with evidence.  You still have not one shred of evidence of any "collusion" but cling to it anyway.
 
Meanwhile your Saint Hillary has committed with full evidence:
 
1) approving sale of uranium to Russia and getting multi-million dollar donation to her "Clinton Foundation" days later
2) same type of above bullshit with Saudi Arabia
3) knowingly destroyed subpoenaed digital evidence - does Trump get to look at evidence first before it gets handed over to the prosecutor?
4) lied to families of Benghazi victims about the cause of the incident just after telling her daughter in an email there was no "Youtube" cause
5) set up a private email without the knowledge of the federal government and conducted government business on it and connected it to the federal government State Department system
6) called half the electorate a "basket of deplorables"
7) basically ran a "shakedown scam" as the Secretary of State and used the Clinton Foundation as a money laundry.
 
But - NO EVIDENCE is where you want to focus your attention!!!
Mike Haluska Added Jun 19, 2017 - 4:47pm
Jeff - you revealed your real intentions:
 
"Lose your funding for something that's important to you and you vote Republican and voted for Trump?
Fuck you.
Lose your insurance because of Trumpcare and you voted Republican and Trump?
Fuck you.
Lose your food stamps and your daycare subsidy and you voted Republican and Trump?
Fuck you."
 
You're just another entitlement minded, government-gimmee, cradle to grave, screw the debt we're piling up on our children and grandchildren . . . you belong in some "worker's paradise" like Cuba - not in a country that was built on individual initiative and personal responsibility.
 
It's just too bad for you that responsible adults who don't want to bankrupt our nation have taken control and are restoring the nation to what made her the most free, greatest and most prosperous nation ever.  You had your fun, now it's to the point where we have more people riding in the wagon than pulling the wagon - and the riders are cursing the pullers for not pulling hard enough and long enough! 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 19, 2017 - 5:01pm
@Mike Haluska:
"Jeff - you pay attention to totally unfounded allegations with no evidence and ignore the obvious factual ones with evidence. You still have not one shred of evidence of any "collusion" but cling to it anyway."
 
LOL
Mike, the sad Trumpling, refused to see what's in front of his face.
 
I think that's pathetic.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 19, 2017 - 5:21pm
@Mike Haluska:
"Jeff - you revealed your real intentions:"

"Lose your funding for something that's important to you and you vote Republican and voted for Trump?
Fuck you.
Lose your insurance because of Trumpcare and you voted Republican and Trump?
Fuck you.
Lose your food stamps and your daycare subsidy and you voted Republican and Trump?
Fuck you."
 
That's right.  As I said, Mike, I'm tired.  

"You're just another entitlement minded, government-gimmee, cradle to grave, screw the debt we're piling up on our children and grandchildren . . . "
 
That's funny, Mike.
So, the funds to keep the Great Lakes clean, the money for educating and rehabilitating coal miners, the subsidies for farms and ranches....all for good, red-blooded Americans who voted for Trump....you want all that to go away?
Me, too!!!!!!
Fuck them, right, Mike?
 
"you belong in some "worker's paradise" like Cuba - not in a country that was built on individual initiative and personal responsibility."
 
You mean like the farmers and ranchers who happily gobble up subsidies?
Or, the Red State food stampers who claim they want food stamps but want the government to stay out of their lives?  LOL
Fuck them, Mike.  I agree with you.  Cut them off, I say.  Drought?  Fuck you.  Hungry?  Fuck you.

"It's just too bad for you that responsible adults who don't want to bankrupt our nation have taken control"
 
LOL
You mean, the orange anus-in-chief, the serial Twitter junkie who whines about how mean people are to him, he's an adult?  Coulda fooled me.
Hey, how many golf trips has he taken?  I thought he was going to be too busy to golf.
 
 
"and are restoring the nation to what made her the most free, greatest and most prosperous nation ever."
 
A caveat to that, as long as you aren't Muslim, Hispanic, a Democrat, a liberal or a non-Christian.  Other than that, I agree with you.
As an aside, I still think it's funny that a majority of evangelicals voted for a pussy grabber that's been married three times.  I guess it's OK to be a hypocrite as long as you get what you want.  
 
"You had your fun, now it's to the point where we have more people riding in the wagon than pulling the wagon - and the riders are cursing the pullers for not pulling hard enough and long enough!"
 
You mean like all those Red States that get all that Government aid?
Jeff Michka Added Jun 19, 2017 - 5:39pm
Jeffrey Kelly challenges Mikey HaHaHaluska: the money for educating and rehabilitating coal miners, the subsidies for farms and ranches....all for good, red-blooded Americans who voted for Trump....you want all that to go away?
Me, too!!!!!!  Well consider these Trump states amount of federal money as part of state revenue: LA: 41.9%, WV: 34.1%, MI: 32.8%, TN: 34.9%, KY: 35.1%, CA: 25.0% MT: 37.4%, to name a few, source: https://taxfoundation.org/which-states-rely-most-federal-aid-0/  So, Mikey, once again, didn't bother to look for any numbers, just spewed his normal WB rightist BS, and everyone should "just believe him."
Jeff Michka Added Jun 19, 2017 - 5:42pm
and the riders are cursing the pullers for not pulling hard enough and long enough!"-Yeah, Mikey...you aren't contributing enough!!! Stop paying alimony and pay more taxes...your ex will understand.  Same ol Mitt ROMNEY bs about "makers and takers," but in Mikey's case it's "fakers and takens."Mikey is, of course, a faker and needs more taken.
John Minehan Added Jun 20, 2017 - 1:13am
The really bad thing is that both Mr. Kelly and Mr. Haluska are right.
Mike Haluska Added Jun 20, 2017 - 8:52am
Jeff -  your statement:
 
"Mike, the sad Trumpling, refused to see what's in front of his face."
  
Then please - name a single piece of evidence that there has been any collusion between Trump and Russia.  What you can't see that's right in front of your face is a scam!
Mike Haluska Added Jun 20, 2017 - 9:00am
Jeff K -
 
I oppose all forms of government subsidies whether they are to individuals, businesses, farms, unions, private organizations, etc.  I do not oppose funding to clean the environment, provide safe access, etc. 
 
Jeff M -
 
25% of California and 37% of Michigan's (Democrat states) budget is more than the combined budgets of the other states.  However, your point is valid.  As I have stated previously, I oppose all subsidies except those that are in the overall benefit (Interstate Highways, Environmental, etc.)
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 20, 2017 - 11:00am
@ Mike Haluska:
"Jeff - your statement:
"Mike, the sad Trumpling, refused to see what's in front of his face."
Then please - name a single piece of evidence that there has been any collusion between Trump and Russia."
Now, Mike, is this going to be one of those things that I provide evidence of something and you scream and shriek about it? I get that from Holocaust deniers all the time.
And, Mike, what we have is evidence of multiple meetings of people close to Trump who met with Russian officials and failed to disclose it. We don't know about Trump (yet) but what we have against him is that he asked for loyalty from Comey....and what he wanted to prove it was to drop it against Flynn. That's obstruction, Mike. Ignorance isn't an excuse.
"What you can't see that's right in front of your face is a scam!"
Yes, you are completely objective and unbiased.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 20, 2017 - 11:04am
@Mike Haluska:
"Jeff K -

I oppose all forms of government subsidies whether they are to individuals, businesses, farms, unions, private organizations, etc."
 
Excellent, thank you.  It's good to know where someone stands.
 
Well, I hope you are never in a position to have to use a "subsidy."  I hope your health never fails you or you ever go hungry.  Or lose a job.
 
 



Leroy Added Jun 20, 2017 - 11:27am
"We don't know about Trump (yet) but what we have against him is that he asked for loyalty from Comey....and what he wanted to prove it was to drop it against Flynn. That's obstruction, Mike. Ignorance isn't an excuse."
 
Assuming what you say is true, how is that obstruction?  Trump was effectively his boss.  It may be untraditional, but it is well within his constitutional purview to fire people who work for him and to say who gets investigated and who does not.  You might not like it; what you say may even be true, but what Trump did is legal.  End of story.
 
"Well, I hope you are never in a position to have to use a "subsidy."  I hope your health never fails you or you ever go hungry.  Or lose a job."
 
My beliefs are similar to Mike's.  Therefore, I feel I have a better right to these things because I don't believe in them but have been forced to pay for these things.  I have contributed to Social Security and MediCare.  I have a right to these, even more so.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 20, 2017 - 11:41am
@ Leroy:
""We don't know about Trump (yet) but what we have against him is that he asked for loyalty from Comey....and what he wanted to prove it was to drop it against Flynn. That's obstruction, Mike. Ignorance isn't an excuse."

"Assuming what you say is true, how is that obstruction? Trump was effectively his boss."
 
Effectively, yes and the FBI Director serves at the discretion of the sitting president.
However, directors serve ten years terms, precisely to keep them ABOVE politics.  What Trump did was to ask for loyalty when he should want HONESTY and INTEGRITY from his FBI Director, to be above politics and "loyalty."  
This means that Comey should have and Trump should want the FBI's independence to investigate however it needs to.
 
"It may be untraditional, but it is well within his constitutional purview to fire people who work for him"
 
Sure.  But it's illegal to do so in order to stop an active investigation.  The president is not above the law, no matter how much Trumplings want Trump exempted.
 
 
"and to say who gets investigated and who does not. You might not like it; what you say may even be true, but what Trump did is legal. End of story."
 
Uh, no.  The president does not have the right to tell the FBI who it can and cannot investigate.  The purpose of the FBI and the Justice Department is to investigate crimes.  Period.  A president does not have the right to obstruct any investigation as obstruction is against the law.


"Well, I hope you are never in a position to have to use a "subsidy." I hope your health never fails you or you ever go hungry. Or lose a job."

"My beliefs are similar to Mike's. Therefore, I feel I have a better right to these things because I don't believe in them but have been forced to pay for these things. I have contributed to Social Security and MediCare. I have a right to these, even more so."
 
Good for you.
Steve Bergeron Added Jun 20, 2017 - 12:16pm
Jeffrey,
    The sittings President absolutely has the right to fire the FBI director at any time, for any reason or no reason.  This foolishness about this being obstruction is just that...foolishness.  Comey wasn't doing the investigation himself.  He was a figurehead.  And the 10 year term, is a maximum, not a minimum.  It doesn't, in any way, prevent the President from firing him.  Whether firing him was politically prudent is quite another issue.  But, without a doubt, firing Comey was well within Trump's authority and legal rights.  
    Comey should have been fired long before he actually was.  He was a stooge, who evidently didn't know his job or the limits of his authority.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 20, 2017 - 12:29pm
@Steve Bergeron
"Jeffrey,
The sittings President absolutely has the right to fire the FBI director at any time, for any reason or no reason. This foolishness about this being obstruction is just that...foolishness. Comey wasn't doing the investigation himself. He was a figurehead. And the 10 year term, is a maximum, not a minimum. It doesn't, in any way, prevent the President from firing him. Whether firing him was politically prudent is quite another issue. But, without a doubt, firing Comey was well within Trump's authority and legal rights.
Comey should have been fired long before he actually was. He was a stooge, who evidently didn't know his job or the limits of his authority."
 
Sure.  But, here's the part you keep missing:
If what Comey said is true (and I have no doubt that it is), that Trump asked Comey to drop the investigation into Flynn, THAT is the obstruction.  
 
As an aside, I find it funny that Republicans and Trumplings loved them some Comey last October....and hate him now.
To be fair, Democrats did the same.  I appreciate the irony.
 
Mike Haluska Added Jun 20, 2017 - 2:56pm
Jeff K - your statement:
 
"Well, I hope you are never in a position to have to use a "subsidy."  I hope your health never fails you or you ever go hungry.  Or lose a job."
 
deserves a response.  I have nothing but sympathy for anyone who falls on hard times - regardless of whether it was their "fault" or not.  We're all human and we all screw up at one time or another.  My problem is with how the government "charity" has been perverted to into a self perpetuating, politically self-serving Multi-Billion Dollar Industry.
 
I believe that as individuals acting charitably through local organizations, we can truly help those that are deserving and in need.  When I have had hard times in my life I was fortunate enough to have a large, loving family to help get me back on my feet.  In turn, when I have had the chance to help someone I did it out of appreciation for the help I was given and in the spirit of someone who has "been there".  When someone I help wants to repay me, I insist that they salt the money away and use it to help someone else. 
 
The biggest problem with the Welfare State is the removal of the human "one-on one" relationship.  The Welfare State makes it entirely impersonal and puts artificial barriers up.  In addition, the Welfare State makes no distinction between "deserving" and "needy".  Someone may have lost his job and "needs" money to survive, but if he lost his job because of abusing drugs or alcohol then "giving" him/her money only exacerbates the problem and turns it into a lifestyle.  The other problems (waste, fraud, abuse over 30%) of the Welfare State occur because the Welfare Case Worker isn't dishing out his/her own money.
Mike Haluska Added Jun 20, 2017 - 3:05pm
Jeff K - your allegation:
 
"If what Comey said is true (and I have no doubt that it is), that Trump asked Comey to drop the investigation into Flynn, THAT is the obstruction."
 
is simply not true.  It is routine for people to "go to bat" for co-workers, friends that have messed up but are not criminals.  No law had or has been broken - period!  The Constitution says the President has the ability to dismiss anyone in the Executive Branch for any or no reason.  Not liking what Trump did is not enough to merit an investigation.  Additionally, Trump never said that if Comey didn't do his job he would fire him.  Additionally, the investigation was not terminated or even delayed because of Comey's firing. 
 
Comey is one of the people who deserve investigation.  He admits to deliberately leaking government documents of a confidential conversation and no doubt has been "looking the other way" for leakers in his department.    
John Minehan Added Jun 20, 2017 - 3:26pm
"And, Mike, what we have is evidence of multiple meetings of people close to Trump who met with Russian officials and failed to disclose it. We don't know about Trump (yet) but what we have against him is that he asked for loyalty from Comey....and what he wanted to prove it was to drop it against Flynn. That's obstruction, Mike. Ignorance isn't an excuse."
 
Well, sort of.
 
Trump would have an absolute right to tell Comey to lay off the Flynn investigation if it were because Flynn is a good guy and has suffered enough.  Comey would have a right NOT to do that, BUT Trump could fire him based on the perceived waste of prosecutorial resources.
 
On the other hand, Trump would NOT have the right to tell Comey to lay off Flynn because Trump perceived that Flynn might flip on him and may know something that would get Trump impeached. 
 
In the same way, Trump's right to fire Comey for any reason or no reason is predicated on his not having a pernicious reason.  (Here is an analogy, an employer can fire anyone for any reason or no reason in an "at-will employment" state BUT an employer can be liable for treble damages for firing someone for a pernicious reason.)
 
Trump's problem is that his and his campaign and West Wing Staff have done things that tend to indicate he had a pernicious  reason.
 
Part of this may be that Trump does not know how to be a political man and creates issues where none may exist.
 
On the other hand, and this is "inside baseball," the fact that the IC released the dossier on Trump, when that was against its collective interest, implies that there may be more here than meets the eye. 
 
Let's see.  Ideally, no one is either above or below the law.     
John Minehan Added Jun 20, 2017 - 3:36pm
"'Jeff K -
I oppose all forms of government subsidies whether they are to individuals, businesses, farms, unions, private organizations, etc.'
 
Excellent, thank you.  It's good to know where someone stands.
 
Well, I hope you are never in a position to have to use a 'subsidy.'  I hope your health never fails you or you ever go hungry.  Or lose a job."
 
I think a lot of this should be done at the lowest level possible, optimally through what Peter Drucker called "the Social Sector" or what de Tocqueville called "the Civil Society."
 
The interesting thing about the Scandinavian Model is that as collective as it may be (or more accurately, was)that system had a lot of local control. 
 
 
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 10:18am
@Mike Haluska:
"Jeff K - your statement:

"Well, I hope you are never in a position to have to use a "subsidy." I hope your health never fails you or you ever go hungry. Or lose a job."

deserves a response. I have nothing but sympathy for anyone who falls on hard times - regardless of whether it was their "fault" or not. We're all human and we all screw up at one time or another. My problem is with how the government "charity" has been perverted to into a self perpetuating, politically self-serving Multi-Billion Dollar Industry.

I believe that as individuals acting charitably through local organizations, we can truly help those that are deserving and in need."
 
Perhaps but the problem is that this does not always exist.  The type of charity you describe is dependent on others giving money (or other items)to local charities, churches, etc.  This fluctuates and is not dependable, especially in times of economic downturn.  
I know this because I work for a state agency and we coordinate with organizations.  They sometimes have to turn people away because money (or whatever) is short.
 
"When I have had hard times in my life I was fortunate enough to have a large, loving family to help get me back on my feet."
 
Lucky you.  That doesn't exist for everyone.
 
"In turn, when I have had the chance to help someone I did it out of appreciation for the help I was given and in the spirit of someone who has "been there". When someone I help wants to repay me, I insist that they salt the money away and use it to help someone else."
 
I've done the same.

"The biggest problem with the Welfare State is the removal of the human "one-on one" relationship. The Welfare State makes it entirely impersonal and puts artificial barriers up."
 
Those barriers exist in large part due to legislation.
 
 
"In addition, the Welfare State makes no distinction between "deserving" and "needy". Someone may have lost his job and "needs" money to survive, but if he lost his job because of abusing drugs or alcohol then "giving" him/her money only exacerbates the problem and turns it into a lifestyle."
 
The problem is you are targeting only one person.  In addition, you want workers (and others) to delve into personal issues that violate privacy (and believe me, we hear enough about "violation of privacy" with the normal questions that are asked when someone applies for benefits).  Also, these people have families, are you suggesting we starve children?
Now, some programs do require that the worker delve into private matters but the basics, like Food Stamps and Medical, do not.
BTW, the official term for Food Stamps is SNAP (Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program) so I will use that term going forward.
 
"The other problems (waste, fraud, abuse over 30%)"
 
There is but it's probably much smaller than that.  I know, I used to investigate SNAP and other forms of fraud, generally the percentage is small.  It's harder to commit fraud now, there are systems in place to prevent abuse.  I also found that for the most part it was not deliberate, more likely a lack of knowledge on the part of the recipient.
 
"of the Welfare State occur because the Welfare Case Worker isn't dishing out his/her own money."
 
LOL
Are you suggesting that workers aren't concerned by fraud and waste?  On occasion I had to dial back some of my workers from making multiple referrals on things that I investigated previously.
Mike Haluska Added Jun 21, 2017 - 12:36pm
Jeff K - your statements:
 
"The type of charity you describe is dependent on others giving money (or other items)to local charities, churches, etc.  This fluctuates and is not dependable, especially in times of economic downturn."  
 
is a rationalization and has no basis in fact.  There are literally hundreds of thousands of large private charities in the US - and as a people Americans are BY FAR the most generous people in history. 
 
"Are you suggesting that workers aren't concerned by fraud and waste?"
 
There is a difference between "concerned" and "committed" to stopping waste, fraud and abuse.  You have to admit that when you have lent your own money to "help out a friend" you are much more adamant about the funds not being blown at the racetrack than the welfare recipient 100 miles away you authorized somebody else's money to.  Your breakfast this morning is a great example:
 
The chicken that laid your eggs was "concerned" about you enjoying your breakfast.  The pig that gave you bacon was "committed".
Mike Haluska Added Jun 21, 2017 - 12:46pm
John - your allegation:
 
"And, Mike, what we have is evidence of multiple meetings of people close to Trump who met with Russian officials and failed to disclose it."
 
is more jibberish.  First of all, many people "meet with Russians" every day in their official capacity - it's their JOB.  Second, there are a slew of Democrats who "met with Russians" - why aren't they being investigated? 
 
Allegations are NOT evidence - and nobody has produced one document, witness, tape, etc. as evidence of any member of Trump's administration "colluding with Russians".  Comey had a Frakkin' laundry list of criminal offenses and hard evidence against Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton and the Clinton Foundation.  We KNOW that Hillary approved sale of Uranium to Russia and days late the Russians make a huge contribution to the Clinton Foundation.  This happened many times with Saudi Arabia and other nations that favors in return for donations.  Where is your outcry for "full disclosure" when Democrats are involved?
 
There should be logo of the Democratic Party alongside the word "HYPOCRITE" in the dictionary.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 1:05pm
@Mike Haluska:
"Jeff K - your statements: "The type of charity you describe is dependent on others giving money (or other items)to local charities, churches, etc. This fluctuates and is not dependable, especially in times of economic downturn." is a rationalization and has no basis in fact."There are literally hundreds of thousands of large private charities in the US - and as a people Americans are BY FAR the most generous people in history."
 
You left out the bit where I have personal experience with this.  That's irritating, Mike.  Don't selectively quote me again.
 
I can tell you that in 2008 I sent people to local churches and other charities like the Salvation Army when we ran out of federal money for programs like LIHEAP and ECAP (programs that help poor people pay for electric and gas).  They sent them away because their donations went down.  The same thing happened at Christmas that year, businesses that normally donated toys for foster children didn't that year because they couldn't.
 
It's completely normal.  It took about two years to get things back to pre-2008 level.
 
"Are you suggesting that workers aren't concerned by fraud and waste?"
 
"There is a difference between "concerned" and "committed" to stopping waste, fraud and abuse."
 
Again, you are stepping into areas you know nothing about.  
 
All Social Agencies have investigative bodies that look into fraud and waste.  The problem is that workers are not investigators nor can they be expected to be.  Their main focus is insuring eligibility for the programs they administer.  This is as it should be.  When there is a concern about fraud the workers turn that information over to the appropriate investigative body.  Here it is the Office of the Inspector General.
 
See, this is the problem I have with people spouting off about things they don't know or don't understand.  You sit on the outside, thinking you know how these things work, that no one cares about "fraud" or "waste."  Of course that is a concern.
 
"You have to admit that when you have lent your own money to "help out a friend" you are much more adamant about the funds not being blown at the racetrack than the welfare recipient 100 miles away you authorized somebody else's money to."
 
I cut off the irrelevant crap.
 
Uh, Mike, do you think that this stuff is just given away?  There are laws and guidelines that HAVE to be followed in order for someone to receive public services, there is no such thing as a free lunch.  
 
I'll give you SNAP as an example.  Single adults with no dependants are required to work a minimum of 20 hours a week in order to maintain eligibility after the initial three months.  There are income maximums for SNAP, no one can continue after their income reaches a certain point (based on family size).  Now, SNAP is one of the easier programs because, let's face it, everyone has to eat.  But, non-citizens do not qualify (except under certain circumstances), only citizens can receive those benefits or naturalized citizens who have been here for five years.  
 
See, Mike, do some research.  Don't be an ignorant Trumpling or right-winger.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 1:12pm
@Mike Haluska 
"John - your allegation: "And, Mike, what we have is evidence of multiple meetings of people close to Trump who met with Russian officials and failed to disclose it." is more jibberish. First of all, many people "meet with Russians" every day in their official capacity - it's their JOB. Second, there are a slew of Democrats who "met with Russians" - why aren't they being investigated"
 
Name them.  Also, it's not about meeting them, it's the failure to disclose those meetings when required to do so.
 
 
"Allegations are NOT evidence - and nobody has produced one document, witness, tape, etc. as evidence of any member of Trump's administration "colluding with Russians". Comey had a Frakkin' laundry list of criminal offenses and hard evidence against Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton and the Clinton Foundation. We KNOW that Hillary approved sale of Uranium to Russia and days late the Russians make a huge contribution to the Clinton Foundation. This happened many times with Saudi Arabia and other nations that favors in return for donations. Where is your outcry for "full disclosure" when Democrats are involved? There should be logo of the Democratic Party alongside the word "HYPOCRITE" in the dictionary."
 
Sorry, Republicans and Evangelicals already own that label.