DEAR USA

DEAR USA
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Dear USA.

 

Remember when you were an ideal for the world ? I do remember, back in the Seventies. My parents who have been young in the Fifties, were big fans of you. You brought us the washing machine and the dryer for everybody (sorry, the Germans were faster with the Volkswagen, but never mind) and more. 

 

You brought us Elvis and Rock'n'Roll. You brought us Jack Kerouac and Carlos Castaneda. Freedom and easy riding. Woodstock and Jimi. I mean I was 12 at that time, but it caught on. We saw all the hippies and others protesting against an unjust WAR in Vietnam. We were impressed.

 

We admired you.

 

We all wanted to be like you. An open society where everybody accepts everyone, all living together in peace, since: Wasn't the US created with those ideals (never mind African slaves...;-) ? Where all people which are persecuted at home can find a new place to live and "make their dreams come true" ? The statue of liberty. Well, actually, you probably would have to afford the ship's fare to get there.

 

I knew the US in the Eighties. I worked in Frisco, Modesto, Calgary (ok....Canada), La Crosse, Miami and New York. I really felt free, as long as I shut up about politics and did not dare to criticise foreign policy and religion, because that would be the death penalty for me ;-)

 

As long as I hailed the US and did not dare criticise anything I was welcome. And then I started to feel uncomfortable, to feel SMALL being an European. I felt slowly covered up by that immense self-confidence of Americans which did not allow anything but me saying how grateful I can be to be in their country.

 

In the next years, Clinton came and went, Bush senior came and went, Bush II came and went, 0bama came and went.....and I noted that not only the US itself started to become uneasy internally, but also its foreign policy started to become more aggressive.

 

Then 9/11 happened. I have my opinion on that, but it's not the point here. The point is that in the eyes of us Europeans we started to have more and more doubts if the US was fit to play the leader of the "free" (LOL) world. They seemed (and seem) more and more distanced from the ideals we thought they had, and were slowly turning into a macho which doesn't care for anything else than it's own economic advantages.

 

I started to think that the US doesn't give a shit what the rest of the world thinks. That they simply follow their neoliberal hegemonist agenda, no matter what the cost. And that idea is unfortunately still present.

 

I hope that the people of the US will realize that this is a dead end. We all need each other to let humanity survive. No matter which culture or religion. No matter which super power will emerge in the future: No leadership is eternal.

 

And by suppressing the rest it is even more short-lived.

 

Go back in time, guys. Play along WITH us, not against us. If not, we'll ALL go down together. I'm sure Elvis or Frankie Boy wouldn't have liked that too.

 

 

Comments

Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 20, 2017 - 7:01pm
I don't disagree.
 
Please tell me you aren't a 9-11 "Truther," Stone-Heart.
wsucram15 Added Jun 20, 2017 - 7:04pm
You might not remember this, but some time ago, I told you the US was no longer about all this stuff. I told you things had changed.  That what you see is not how it is, in fact, most Americans dont even realize it yet because they live in a bubble.
The free, fun times are gone... I remember them well, my sister protested, my brother fought in that war and my other brother fought in other disputes and semi-declared wars from the time he was 18 until a little while ago for our freedoms.
 
You are correct, something changed after 9/11..it gets worse every year.  But the largest problem we have is our government is no longer a true democracy.   Its not a partisan issue, its one of money and we have discussed that too.  Remember the Rockefeller's and the Federal Reserve conversation?
 
New Honesty Added Jun 20, 2017 - 7:09pm
True, the USA seem to be going backwards. They are nowhere near as relevant as they've been a couple of years ago. Trump isn't helping either. While I admired the USA and their pop culture in the past I wouldn't want to live there in a million years nowadays. 
If you take a close look, countries like Germany or France are way more developed than the USA in some aspects (e.g. health system, educational system)
Dino Manalis Added Jun 20, 2017 - 7:19pm
We love American culture, it's the policies people always differ on!
Tubularsock Added Jun 20, 2017 - 7:25pm
Well Stone-Eater Friedli, WE SURE FOOLED YOU!
You captured what the U.S. has always been about in your statement:
“I started to think that the US doesn't give a shit what the rest of the world thinks. That they simply follow their neoliberal hegemonist agenda, no matter what the cost. And that idea is unfortunately still present.”

The land of liberty was ALWAYS a “white-wash job” and all we have done is started to show underwear from that washing machine you spoke of in your Dear USA letter.
 
When a country is willing to drop an atomic bomb on men, women, and children; when a country is willing to burn hundreds of thousands of men, women and children to death with napalm; when a country is willing to drone unknown people that they don’t even see and blow them to death; when a country condones torture as an American policy; Well, you are looking at a very sick society and American's are asleep to all of this because they are self centered and lost. And their TV sets tell them how evil everyone else in the world is but NEVER self reflects.
 
And now, even the grossest aspect of America is tweeted out every morning by our supreme “leader”.
 
And the joke’s on us!
George N Romey Added Jun 20, 2017 - 7:29pm
The USA has never been perfect, far from it.  But I think it all started with American Pie.  Too much of the dream has become an illusion.  Maybe good people might eventually fix this.  I don't know, I'm weary but want to be hopeful.  I think in the next few years we will have determined our destiny. 
Jenifer Frost Added Jun 20, 2017 - 8:24pm
The problem with the United States is that the rest of the world doesn't want or need a leader. Each sovereign nation desires to have their own sovereignty respected and to be allowed to make their own decisions and form their own treaties with whomever they want. 
 
Hey Jeffrey, are you one of those 9/11 Commission Report believers? If so can you tell me what kind of magic was used to bring down WTC building 7? 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 20, 2017 - 8:37pm
@Jennifer Frost:
"Hey Jeffrey, are you one of those 9/11 Commission Report believers? If so can you tell me what kind of magic was used to bring down WTC building 7?"
 
Hey, Jennifer, why don't you enlighten me?
While you are at it, how do 9-11 "Truthers" explain the other two planes that went down that day?  Was that just a coincidence?
 
Jenifer Frost Added Jun 20, 2017 - 8:43pm
I wouldn't know Jeffrey, I'm not a "truther" or believer in any of the conspiracy theories, including the official story. I'm just a 9/11 truth seeker looking for answers. Thought you might have had some, I guess not. If you come up with any you are more than welcome to share when I post my "Official 9/11 Doubters Guide" in a few weeks once I complete my exhaustive research on the matter and gather as many facts as I can regarding it all to present without bias. 
Jeff Michka Added Jun 20, 2017 - 8:45pm
Jeffrey Kelly takes Princess JenJen's bait: Hey, Jennifer, why don't you enlighten me? While you are at it, how do 9-11 "Truthers"- JenJen is working up a deal with Alex Jones on her pet "Hillary will be president and start WWIII" conspiracy plot stuff.  You should have agreed with her.  All you'll get is abuse for not agreeing with Ms Millennial.  We need to collectively give her a "participatory back pat" so she'll feel better about her efforts here.  I'm waiting for Doug Plumb to show up and get her into "The moon landings were all fakes"... Yeah, that's right, on top of his holocaust denials.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 20, 2017 - 8:46pm
LOL
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 20, 2017 - 8:49pm
Just to add some sanity to this, Popular Mechanics did an article debunking 9-11 Truther crap.
BTW, Holocaust deniers, who, let's face it, will believe craptastic conspiracy theory as long as it includes Jews, believe that either the Mossad did it or the Jewish landlord did it for the insurance money.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a5688/debunking-911-myths-flight-93/
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 20, 2017 - 8:51pm
The best thing about Doug Plumb is that he doesn't know crap about history yet feels like he can honestly say the Holocaust never happened.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 20, 2017 - 8:52pm
In all fairness to Jenifer, I do like her avatar.
Jenifer Frost Added Jun 20, 2017 - 9:04pm
Just ignore Jeff he's a stone cold psychopath. Even reading his disjointed rants can cause sanity loss. 
Jenifer Frost Added Jun 20, 2017 - 9:10pm
I'll be sure to check out that article Jeffrey, thanks. But like I said I reject all the 9/11 conspiracy theories, just looking for some rational answers to the questions (like how a building hit by nothing --WTC7-- just collapses for no reason). 
 
If you are looking for a conspiracy nut Jeff is your guy. He sees conspiracies in just about anything, even when the dictionary meaning of conspiracy theory doesn't fit. Then again his thought process is not just devoid of logic and reasoning it actually operates in the reverse direction to them. 
Patrick Writes Added Jun 20, 2017 - 9:11pm
People overseas looked up to the hippies of the 60's and 70's?
 
The right wing in America has always hated "the rest of the world". The first attempt at a U.N. (League of Nations) in 1919 which was the idea of the U.S. President Wilson, that he fought hard to get into the Versailles Treaty, got voted down in Congress. So the U.S. couldn't join it. 

Apparently a lot of buttering up of Congressmen happened in the late 1940's to get the Democrat controlled Congress to allow the country to join the United Nations after World War II. 
 
You see this hatred in statements of George W. Bush "We will not seek a permission slip to defend ourselves". Since Bush spent most of his presidency trying to imitate Reagan, Reagan probably had statements of this kind as well but I don't know any off hand. 
 
George Washington's Farewell Address in 1796 told the country to beware foreign entanglements which encouraged the isolationist sentiments of the U.S. until World War II. 
 
It's strange, but the PostWar era of the late 40's, and 50's and 60's, the U.S. was controlled by liberal Democrats (they controlled the courts, the Congress, and the presidency--Eisenhower wasn't REALLY a Republican but my understanding is he ran to stop MacArthur getting the Republican ticket, Eisenhower was FDR's hand-picked commander to run the war in Europe in the 40's and was Supreme Allied Commander so controlled the British and French armies technically as well. FDR was a very left-leaning, heavy handed sorta guy, hated MacArthur, didn't love Patton, fully trusted Eisenhower--this guy 10 years later went onto to be "real" Republican president??).
 
I'd argue it wasn't until the 80's that the Republicans began to get back in charge of the government. So perhaps the era that the author admires was a Democrat-controlled (all 3 branches basically) era. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 20, 2017 - 9:13pm
The Popular Mechanics article addresses WTC7, Jenifer.
 
As for Jeff and I, we get along fine.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 20, 2017 - 9:14pm
Made the mistake on disagreeing with Perfect Princess JenJen who is really just another angry Mellennial if you read the comment above.  Okay, JenJen you get the WB Millennial back pat participation award!!!  YEEEAH!!! Self esteem abounds, eh?  Now that you got your name calling out of the way, try and answer, "Truther." AND- she really thinks her av pic is her,  And The Matrix is real. Go figure.
Leroy Added Jun 20, 2017 - 9:25pm
Wow.  The US haters unite.  The Captain must be sick or perhaps succumbed.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 5:09am
Jeffrey
 
What's a "truther" ? I have my opinion on 9/11 which seems logical for me. It was the ignition for the invasion of Iraq. Who was behind it, well, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the Cheney gang. In order to go to war (for economic reasons), you need a justification. And when there is none, you organize one.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 5:12am
Jeanne
 
But the largest problem we have is our government is no longer a true democracy
 
Was it ever as a republic ? And....was there ever any TRUE democracy in any country, even here in Switzerland ? I guess not. ALL the political systems from socialism to capitalism are no more than economic dictatorships.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 5:14am
NH
 
If you take a close look, countries like Germany or France are way more developed than the USA in some aspects (e.g. health system, educational system)
 
Sure are.....still. This might change too. The problem is that every time some in the US want to do something on a state level for people's benefit, the same people cry "socialism" !
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 5:16am
Tube
 
Sad but true...
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 5:19am
Jenifer
 
The problem with the United States is that the rest of the world doesn't want or need a leader. Each sovereign nation desires to have their own sovereignty respected and to be allowed to make their own decisions and form their own treaties with whomever they want. 
 
The US is not interested in what the world wants or needs. They simply say: Here we are and we're here to stay. The minimum price for that is a military base in your country ;-)
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 6:28am
Patrick
 
So perhaps the era that the author admires was a Democrat-controlled (all 3 branches basically) era. 
 
Could be right. But then, when I look at the democrats of today all I see is a weird kind of globalist ideology paired with PC and all that LGBTQUKHFD crap. Same happens in Europe.
 
Not my thing anymore.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 6:30am
Leroy
 
It's not a hate article. It's more of a plea for better relations and more brain instead of more profit. By all economic parties which try to globalize and control the planet to their gusto.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 8:28am
@Stone-Heart Friedli:
"Jeffrey What's a "truther" ? I have my opinion on 9/11 which seems logical for me. It was the ignition for the invasion of Iraq. Who was behind it, well, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the Cheney gang. In order to go to war (for economic reasons), you need a justification. And when there is none, you organize one."
 
Well, Stone-Heart, I'm glad you qualified that by saying it's an opinion.
opher goodwin Added Jun 21, 2017 - 8:56am
Without ideals we are nothing. The greedy multinationals run the world now and they run for the selfish few at the top.
Rich Purtell Added Jun 21, 2017 - 9:02am
I ordered "War is a Racket" by Smedley Butler a few days ago.  US hegemony goes back a long way.  Private central banking is a key problem we have since 1913 and the formation of the Federal Reserve system.  The Fed has been vacuuming away wealth from the middle class, plus funding wars and our imperialist approach.  Same problems with the British empire in the late 1600s, also caused by its central banking system.
 
In the short term we really need to rally around departure from Syria.  The US is an occupying force in a sovereign nation where we have not been invited - that is an act of war, yet war has not been declared.  This illegal status has to be resolved.
 
Big hearted progressives seek to help the downtrodden in the US through further centralization of power. But this centralization of power has created so much injury to US systems, and even more injury and death to people abroad.
 
But I have seen more dialog from progressives in support of federalism - a de-centralized approach for their agenda.  Think global, act local should be the approach for progressives.  If this attitude grows, we may see a fix yet.
 
Then we have to shut down the fascists and the deep state (CIA et al).  I'm still uncertain as to how this group is responding to president Trump.  I tend to think the deep state is appeasing Trump's ego but otherwise just executing their plan as if Hillary was elected.
Stephen L. Brayton Added Jun 21, 2017 - 9:53am
You may find part of the down-turn began in about 1962-63 when it schools were told they were to take prayer away. Look at the stats for many many things including suicides, teen pregnancies, divorce before this and the stats for after. There is a drastic change for the worse. The conditions were right for 'creating' crises and the government stepping in to try to 'help', but not really solving or minimizing things.
Ian Thorpe Added Jun 21, 2017 - 10:27am
SEF,  I've observed close up when working in London that Americans are usually quite shocked to learn what non Americans really think of their country's political and social positions. They seem to think we all accept America is "the shining city on the hill," and the hope of the world.

Like you I have my own opinions on 9/11 (probably not much different to yours), but how the hell did it get into this thread. All you said is that America changed after 9/11? It did, just as it changed after the fall of Saigon in 1973. And just as NATO changed after Bill Clinton's intervention in The Balkans. Before that the alliance had been a peacekeeping force, after it became the agency that legitimized US imposed regime changes.
As for that Popular Mechanics article someone linked, their efforts to support the cover up were so amateurish and inept and lacking in balance, I wouldn't employ them to whitewash a privvy.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 10:35am
@Ian Thorpe:
"As for that Popular Mechanics article someone linked, their efforts to support the cover up were so amateurish and inept and lacking in balance, I wouldn't employ them to whitewash a privvy."
 
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
 
BTW, what is it about tragic events that triggers conspiracy theorists to come screaming out of the woodwork?
You know, I'd think more of such weirdo, whackadoodle conspiracy theorists if they could come up with some sort of coherent narrative rather than blaming the US Government, Jews or aliens.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 10:48am
Wait, I just solved 9-11.  Only look if you want to know the truth.
https://i.imgur.com/t6KEXUc_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high
 
Rich Purtell Added Jun 21, 2017 - 10:53am
As the late, great George Carlin said, never trust the government.  Some of the 9/11 truth theories are way out there.  But many reputable structural engineers have questioned the oddity of the free-fall collapse of the buildings - especially building 7.  We know there are 28 redacted pages of the 9/11 commission report which a few liberty minded politicians want to see released, speculation being that these pages implicate Saudi Arabia in the tragedy.
I don't think the current mainstream dialog about 9/11 is fully correct.  This is not at all off topic here either, because our foundational beliefs about 9/11 are a key root motive to current US imperialist policy.
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 11:01am
Rich
 
Agree fully !
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 11:04am
Ian
 
They seem to think we all accept America is "the shining city on the hill," and the hope of the world.
 
LOL. Not that they would really care. As Nuland said: "Fuck the EU". That one is still vivid in our memory and we think it represents quite a few other people's positions -> Sanctions on Russia....
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 11:05am
BTW: You're right. How the hell did I get lured into a 9/11 discussion again ? Time to bury that subject, I think.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 11:06am
Rich
 
This is not at all off topic here either, because our foundational beliefs about 9/11 are a key root motive to current US imperialist policy.
 
True (mentioning my above comment), though....
William Stockton Added Jun 21, 2017 - 11:55am
Stone, I appreciate the x-ocean figleaf.
Europe was critically wounded for many decades after 1945.  So many people lost their lives and I'm sure Europe, in general, suffered greatly from the loss and trauma.  Europe wanted some leadership and peace.  There was good reason Europe looked to the US for some leadership.
As Europe healed and progressed into the early nineties, they no longer needed the US and were well along the road to their cultural reforming.  This is a great thing actually and I don't see anything wrong with the US not being a "leader" in Europe's business.  I mean . . . why?
 
So Europe stands on their own legs, own feet, and figures out how they will proceed in the 21st century.   Why call for more US leadership and influence?  Why pine for a time when Europe was still weeping for all those lost souls?
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 11:59am
William
 
The problem is not US leadership per se. The problem is that we have to "adopt" US foreign policy as our policy through NATO, so when the US has an "enemy" we are automatically supposed to judge it as an enemy too.....despite the fact that we might have different ideas.
And then we might get mixed up in a war that we don't want and which will damage us way more than the US over there....
Ian Thorpe Added Jun 21, 2017 - 12:08pm
Jeffrey Kelly, you say "what is it about tragic events that triggers conspiracy theorists to come screaming out of the woodwork?" and yet you are the one linking us to conspiracy theories to back up your position. Rich Purtell, above, highlighted some of the anomalies in the official narrative pointed out by structual engineers, I have read several statements by former professional pilots, both commercial and military, and by aircraft engineers who say it would be nearly impossible for a skilled pilot to execute the manoeuvres performed by those aircraft in a large passenger jet. As Rich said many structural engineers and military demolition experts have said the way the buildings collapsed could not be accidental. The PM article mentions none of those, even though they are the views of people whose credentials suggest we should take them seriously.
Are those people right? I really don't know. It the government telling the truth? I don't know that either but there is a first time for everything.
Does my saying I don't know what really happened make me a conspiracy theorist? Absolutely not, not by any sane definition of the phrase anyway.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 12:33pm
@Ian Thorpe:
"Jeffrey Kelly, you say "what is it about tragic events that triggers conspiracy theorists to come screaming out of the woodwork?" and yet you are the one linking us to conspiracy theories to back up your position."
 
Uh, no, I'm linking to article that debunks the conspiracy theories that are out there.  Those people are qualified to do that.
 
Look, Ian, I have very patience for this kind of crap.  If you want to persuade me you'll have to link to credible evidence supporting your view.  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 12:33pm
"Very little patience"
William Stockton Added Jun 21, 2017 - 12:41pm
Stone:  "so when the US has an "enemy" we are automatically supposed to judge it as an enemy too"
 
Who are the enemies?  As I see it, there are two the USA now faces.  One is real and the other is manufactured by a corrupt political party which has had too much influence in American culture.
The real enemy is one that has shown its faces nearly every day in both Europe and America . . . religious fatalism and fanaticism.
 
The manufactured enemy is Russia.  When was the last time Russia blew up a cafe?  Ran over pedestrians in a mall?  What America is fighting right now is internal corruption.  This is why America right now cannot lead the world.  We have to sweep under our own beds, clean our own commodes.  Half the population here has gone absolutely mental.
Rich Purtell Added Jun 21, 2017 - 12:43pm
Backing up what William said:
"Europe was critically wounded for many decades after 1945.  So many people lost their lives and I'm sure Europe, in general, suffered greatly from the loss and trauma.  Europe wanted some leadership and peace.  There was good reason Europe looked to the US for some leadership.
As Europe healed and progressed into the early nineties, they no longer needed the US and were well along the road to their cultural reforming.  This is a great thing actually and I don't see anything wrong with the US not being a "leader" in Europe's business.  I mean . . . why?"
 
You see the USA has really been screwed up for over 100 years.  Our boom period here in the 50s and 60s was more related to the rest of the developed world being so decimated after WWII.  We still had many, many problems with the structure of our society and economy during those decades, but we carried forward because the rest of the world was still rebuilding.
 
So the "good 'ole days" were more a credit to our huge economic advantages.  Now that the US is on a more level playing field with the rest of the world, we are finding that we cannot hold up to the competition.  The oligarchs are more in charge now than ever, and the working class is losing both their economic and social liberties.  Yet we still have many people under the delusion that this is still the greatest country in the world by a wide margin.  I'm not so sure we are #1 at all by many measures, and if we are, the margin is slim.  Nice report on that topic:
 
https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/freedom-world-2017/
 
 
 
wsucram15 Added Jun 21, 2017 - 1:14pm
SEF..yes at one time.  But the thing is that a majority of people still believed it up until recently.  I can remember having arguments with people on HERE actually about dark money in American government over 3 years ago now.
If I am not mistaken you were one of the FEW, that took what I had to say seriously.
This has been going on for a long time, but its so much worse now that its legal and " the people" cant stop the corruption anymore by threatening reps for misuse of power.
 
As far as 9/11 goes, all people believe what they want.  However, we will never know for sure like so many other things in this country because its all gone with nothing more than a "government" investigation..
mark henry smith Added Jun 21, 2017 - 1:26pm
We have met the enemy, and he is us, with a little help from our friends.
 
Stone, you are right on. There is no such thing as a free society without economic freedom, which doesn't mean capitalism, but the right of a society to choose from a variety of economic approaches. We don't have that here in the US. We have been brainwashed and bullied into believing that anything except capitalism is evil, while I believe the opposite, allowing only capitalism is evil. Some things respond well to capitalist incentives and some don't. Health care is one that doesn't, since it creates the perverse incentive to make people sick to make a buck. And only a fool or a completely deceitful person would not recognize this reality in the US.
 
As far as 9/11, it would not be a stretch to imagine that the Israelis have a secret arrangement with the Saudis to manipulate Middle Eastern and world politics to their benefit. The 1967 war, where Saudi air support was one of the key factors for Arab success in the conflict, a conflict that the Saudis promoted, then suddenly backed out at the last minute leaving the Arab forces hanging. Lack of air support was the main factor in their defeat.
 
So if we accept that premise, 9/11 appears to be another event where Saudi and Israeli interests combined to steer the world towards what these two rogue nations want. I more violent, chaotic, militaristic environment where might makes right. If you think either the Israeli's or the Saudis are afraid of losing US support because of their actions, I want to know where you've been burying your head.
 
Thanks Stone. The goal of any evil regime is to get the people to bend to its will. The goal of any benevolent regime is to help people to gain the will to make good decisions on their own. This is where the US has failed miserably. Love ya, man.    
Ian Thorpe Added Jun 21, 2017 - 1:54pm
Jeffrey Kelly, I have zero patience with bigots who point at me and scream conspiracy theorist, then argue against me by citing a load of conspiracy theories that back up official propaganda.
What is it about the very simple (but obviously too complicated for you) statement that I don't know what happened, that you are finding impossible to understand. I haven't put forward any theory, let alone a conspiracy theory,  and I don't think anyone else in this thread has, so you are being irrational.
You can write a million hysterical comments telling us everybody who doesn't agree with you is an idiot, it will not make your opinion worth more than any of ours.
Ian Thorpe Added Jun 21, 2017 - 2:00pm
Oh BTW Jeffrey, if as you say, you have "little patience with this kind of crap," why did you introduce 9/11 truthers into the thread?
I mean, what special kind of stupid does it take to do that and thenm start raving at everybody else that we are not allowed to talk about it?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 2:08pm
@Ian Thorpe:
"Jeffrey Kelly, I have zero patience with bigots who point at me and scream conspiracy theorist,"
 
How am I a bigot?  That's a new one on me.
 
"then argue against me by citing a load of conspiracy theories that back up official propaganda."
 
LOL
I love it, "official propaganda."  Ah, that one always makes me laugh.
Thank you, I'm irritable because the computers are down at work.  You just cheered me up.
 
"What is it about the very simple (but obviously too complicated for you) statement that I don't know what happened, that you are finding impossible to understand."
 
So, you question the event but have no idea why you do so.  Got it.
 
"I haven't put forward any theory, let alone a conspiracy theory, and I don't think anyone else in this thread has, so you are being irrational."
 
No, it just makes my teeth ache when someone questions something but can't tell me why or provide evidence for it.
 
I trust "Popular Mechanics" far more than some random conspiracy theorist on a blog or a website.  I actually looked into the "9-11 Truther" movement a couple of years ago when I ran across it on some Holocaust denier's blog.  I read some things' about it, decided it was crap and dropped it (just like Holocaust denial).
 
"You can write a million hysterical comments telling us everybody who doesn't agree with you is an idiot, it will not make your opinion worth more than any of ours."
 
Well, Ian, I actually linked something about it.  I still haven't seen crap from you.
Tubularsock Added Jun 21, 2017 - 2:10pm
Jeffrey Kelly, The Popular Mechanics article debunking 9/11 was debunked itself years ago!
 
But Tubularsock didn’t hold that against them Tubularsock still used their advice on fixing the garage door. Get real Jeffrey, Popular Mechanics indeed! If you are really interested in information try a real source. You might be surprised.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 2:14pm
@Ian Thorpe:
"Oh BTW Jeffrey, if as you say, you have "little patience with this kind of crap," why did you introduce 9/11 truthers into the thread?"
 
Because Stone-Heart mentioned it in his article.  Did you read it?
 
 
"I mean, what special kind of stupid does it take to do that and thenm start raving at everybody else that we are not allowed to talk about it?"
 
Uh, Ian, where did I say that no one is allowed to talk about it?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 2:19pm
@Tubularshock:
"Jeffrey Kelly, The Popular Mechanics article debunking 9/11 was debunked itself years ago!"
 
Really????  Do you have the debunking of the debunking that is the source of the debunk????
 
"But Tubularsock didn’t hold that against them Tubularsock still used their advice on fixing the garage door."
 
LOL
 
"Get real Jeffrey, Popular Mechanics indeed!"
 
Well, if they helped you with the garage door I'm sure they could figure out how the buildings came down.
 
"If you are really interested in information try a real source. You might be surprised."
 
Have any suggestions?
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 2:41pm
William
 
Thanks. We're on the same side.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 2:44pm
Jeanne
 
Yep, I remember. That was back in 2014 when I started here. Man, I'm getting old. BTW: Which music forum are you on at USmessageboard ? I started there with THAT article here, and I got so many hate responses in a tone that makes WB look like an innocent kiddie site !
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 2:46pm
Marko
 
Thanks. I appreciate that really.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 2:51pm
All
 
There seems to be a problem finding sites which apparently write the "truth" on whatever. I often go to
 
http://www.globalresearch.ca/
 
Now I'm sure that some will scream conspiracy site ! Russian propaganda ! But when one takes the time to read and has some historical and political/economical knowledge he can't deny that most of this stuff is no bullshit. There's LOGIC in it.
Ian Thorpe Added Jun 21, 2017 - 2:53pm
Jeffery, I owe you an apology, sorry I didn't realize I was dealing with a retard. I'll try to help as you are obviously very confused. First Stone merely noted that 9/11 happened, he made clear the point of the article was not to discuss that topic, he was using it as a marker for a change in the USA's political direction.

You actually didn't have to tell me you love official propaganda, your comments have made that abundantly clear. Have you ever in your life questioned anything anything the government told you?
Bigot a new one on you, maybe you should invest in a dictionary.
I'm a bit puzzled by "So you question the event but have no idea why you do so." No I don't question the event, the towers fell down, I saw it live on TV. I question parts of the official narrative that don't make sense. And when I hear aerospace engineers and structural engineers ask the same questions that tells me I'm right to question. I trust them rather more than a bunch of journalist who sell a magazine for guys that fix cars and motorbikes and machinery and such.

And finally, no you didn't say nobody could talk about it, but having introduced the truther issue to the thread (because Stone hadn't mentioned truthers or conspiracies in his article), and then started yelling at everybody who wondered why you even mentioned the topic, it is reasonable to infer  that either accusing people of being "truther" is some kind of mind wank for you, or you are that special kind of stupid (single figure IQ) I mentioned.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 2:56pm
Ian
 
Sorry, but that comment brought tears to my eyes. No, no, I wasn't crying ;-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 3:00pm
Jeffrey
 
As Ian said, it was NOT my intention to bring that worn-out 9/11 stuff on the table. He explained it quite well. The basic, and simple, tone of that message is simply: We used to understand and admire the US, and now we don't anymore. And I stated a few reasons as I hear and read them among friends and other people I know or work with here in Europe (or, Switzerland).
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 3:25pm
@Ian Thorpe:
"Jeffery, I owe you an apology, sorry I didn't realize I was dealing with a retard."
 
Now, that's not very nice.  It would hurt my feelings..........if I gave a shit about what you think about me.
 
"I'll try to help as you are obviously very confused."
 
Gee, I'm glad I'm sitting down for this.
 
"First Stone merely noted that 9/11 happened, he made clear the point of the article was not to discuss that topic, he was using it as a marker for a change in the USA's political direction."
 
Thanks, I read his article.  I do follow him, I read all of his articles with great interest.
However, I decided to query STONE-HEART about his beliefs about it and others decided to comment.  I replied back to them (and you) because I decided to.  If you don't like it you can go piss up a rope.
I say that with all due respect.
 
"You actually didn't have to tell me you love official propaganda, your comments have made that abundantly clear."
 
So, you gathered all of that from one conversation?  Wow.  This is fascinating, I've never been psychoanalized by a dumbass.  Can't wait to see what comes next.
 
"Have you ever in your life questioned anything anything the government told you?"
 
Yes, did you miss the bit about where I looked into the 9-11 Truther movement?
Of course I question what my government tells me, that's why I did some research on it.
 
"Bigot a new one on you, maybe you should invest in a dictionary."
 
No, I want you tell me why you think I'm a bigot.
 
"I'm a bit puzzled by "So you question the event but have no idea why you do so." No I don't question the event, the towers fell down, I saw it live on TV."
 
Good, then we agree on that bit.
 
"I question parts of the official narrative that don't make sense. And when I hear aerospace engineers and structural engineers ask the same questions that tells me I'm right to question."
 
OK, but, did you read anything else on it?  Or, did your questioning lead you into a dead end where you don't look at what others say about it?
I looked at both sides and went with the side that seemed most logical and likely.  
 
"I trust them rather more than a bunch of journalist who sell a magazine for guys that fix cars and motorbikes and machinery and such."
 
Hey!!!!  They helped Tubularshock fix the hell out of a garage door!!!!!!!!
 
"And finally, no you didn't say nobody could talk about it, but having introduced the truther issue to the thread (because Stone hadn't mentioned truthers or conspiracies in his article),"
 
But he did mention it in his article.  I decided to follow up with him, not you or anyone else.  Others chose to speak their piece and I answered them.  Sorry if you don't like but you can go piss up a rope.  Respectfully, of course.
 
"and then started yelling at everybody who wondered why you even mentioned the topic, it is reasonable to infer that either accusing people of being "truther" is some kind of mind wank for you,"
 
Sorry, I'm not freaky like that.
 
"or you are that special kind of stupid (single figure IQ) I mentioned."
 
Aaaaaaawwww, gee.  You hurt my feelings....no, wait, in order for you to hurt my feelings I have to give a shit about what you think about me.  Never mind.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 3:28pm
@Stone-Heart Friedli:
"Ian Sorry, but that comment brought tears to my eyes. No, no, I wasn't crying ;-)"
 
Hey, Stone-Heart, Ian hurt my feelings with that comment!!!!!!!!!
 
No, wait, I just checked.  I don't give a shit about Ian thinks of me.  Never mind.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 3:32pm
@Stone-Heart Friedli:
"Jeffrey As Ian said, it was NOT my intention to bring that worn-out 9/11 stuff on the table."
 
Well, you know me, Stone-Heart.  I still write about that Holocaust stuff you can't stand.
:)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 3:41pm
Jeffrey
 
No problem - but not on this thread ;-)
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 3:58pm
Well, Stone-Heart, here's something new and I didn't even mention Jews:
http://writerbeat.com/articles/16907-Eisenhower-s-Death-Camps-Holocaust-denier-Meme-3
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 4:19pm
Jeffrey
 
Hm....making publicity for your article ? You see, I don't really care for that anymore. Why ? Because I, and probably ALL of the writers and commenters here have NOTHING to do with that.
 
NOBODY has to feel guilty whether whatever is true or not. We should concentrate on the genocides which go on NOW and in recent history, such as Biafra, Sudan, Ruanda etc. Where I make no difference if genocide was done using real weapons or famine as a weapon.
 
The result is the same. But this doesn't get the same publicity, because Africans are apparently not considered worthy enough.
 
So fuck that Holocaust shit. I can't hear about it anymore !
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 4:27pm
Well, Stone-Heart, I asked you to write something about those genocides which matter to you.  I read everything you write with great interest.  If you won't write something about them then obviously you have no interest in teaching me, or anyone else, about them.  Why should I care if you don't?
 
As for drumming up interest, you're complaint is about the Holocaust.  The article I wrote only briefly touches it.  If you would prefer that I no longer follow you, or read what you write, then I won't.
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 4:33pm
Jeffrey
 
Don't get me wrong. I can't start to write about Ruanda, for example. I'd have to write n pages, or link stuff only which is not allowed, Autumn wouldn't like that...
 
You see, I'm a little tired. Because I've tried it many times, but people are not interested in stuff that is a) not repeated endlessly in the media (for whatever purpose) or b) is so far away from their own culture that they can't properly put it into a drawer or c) simply don't know where and what Ruanda is and what the colonies did to Africa.
opher goodwin Added Jun 21, 2017 - 4:36pm
The trouble with America is too much religion and John Wayne.
Religion is a mind-numb and John Wayne's answer to everything was violence.
Americans are fine about dropping napalm or bombs on people but the slightest hint of any danger, like a terrorist incident, and they are too scared to venture out. All the bravado is just posturing and talk. Picking on people who can't fight back is called bullying.
Back in the 60s we opposed this fascist answer to problems and were after a fairer world built on different principles - equality, sharing, the environment, tolerance, empathy and respect. That was worth fighting for.
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 4:37pm
BTW: I've made the experience over 25 years I'm involved in Africa that people simply don't give a shit about it since they're not concerned. They might give a few bucks on Xmas to a charity profit organization to cool off their bad conscience, but that's it.
 
I do write about it when I'm in Africa - not when I'm in Switzerland. Because there I get first hand info if wanted. That will be the case end of 2017.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 4:38pm
But, the thing is you are conversing with someone who knows about these subjects.  I'm interested in learning more.  If you post something I would read it.
Your choice, of course.  I realize you are not some sort of "On-Demand" service who pumps things out because I want to read them.  
We all write about the things that interest us.  I read the articles here to learn new things and discuss things with new people.  I post things here for people to read and get feedback on.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 4:38pm
BTW: Thanks for reading my stuff anyway. So you're in for a more deeper story about it when I have time.
wsucram15 Added Jun 21, 2017 - 4:48pm
Hey Ian..can you be nice?   Just be nice, Jeffrey is ok and sometimes he gets on ppls shit about something and other times, he is pretty funny like now.   Come on..we all have to get along.. Kumbaya.
SEF can handle his threads believe me.  He will tell you when he doesnt like something which is why he is a cool guy that everyone likes.
Also why are you so angry at people you do not know having a conversation about 9/11?
 
SEF..yeah but Im not in any spot yet (working on a whopper of an article) and now that you mention it, I have to remember the page, I dont think I saved it or my login.  Just tell me where you are and I will find you!
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 4:54pm
Opher
 
The trouble with America is too much religion and John Wayne
 
Spot on. That's what we think too !
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 4:55pm
Jeffrey
 
...as I said ;-) I'll get back on it.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 4:59pm
Jeanne
 
Thanks for the flowers - and I'm - Stone-Eater LOL
 
I still have problems navigating but here's a try:
 
http://www.usmessageboard.com/threads/dear-usa.603677/
 
I think the niveau there is way lower than here on WB. And I'm on another group "Your taste in music ?"
 
But I guess I won't stay there too long. More comments, but less quality. WB is my home LOL
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 6:46pm
https://youtu.be/LGNaBO-x2ho
 
Live Trump coming. I'm not for him nor against him. He probably doesn't have figured out himself what he wants to be like....but no one can be worse that that war bitch Clinton.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 6:48pm
.....so the globalist "democrat" PC LGBTQOIUHG fraction has lost again in local votes I've read. Get these "democrats" back to school to learn what "democracy" should be. At least the Reps never said they're democratic LOL
Jeff Michka Added Jun 21, 2017 - 6:54pm
iAN tHORPE COMPLAINS: to do that and thenm start raving at everybody else that we are not allowed to talk about it?- P erhaps it's a note of disgust with the new WB conspiracy theorists who have perpped a conspiracy theory about how Hillary Clinton is plotting to Start WWIII.  At least one of the WB conspiracy club and lighter than air faire members has started waving the Truther banner and want to dredge up 9/11 as another point to boost their currency with Infowars' Alex Jones.  The Clinton conspiracy will go on the same web page as "The Sandy Hook shooting conspiracy."  The sum of that conspiracy is "so "they" can "take ALL OUR GUNS!!!!!!!" SoS.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 7:13pm
Jeff
 
conspiracy theorists who have perpped a conspiracy theory about how Hillary Clinton is plotting to Start WWIII
 
Get some fucking glasses or a hearing aid. That bitch chick wasn't only favoring Iraq, she also orchestrated Libya. Women in power are WORSE than men. Because they have no prick which does part of the thinking ;-)
 
This is NOT conspiracy. 0bama nut had the chance to stop the Bush shit, but he didn't do fuck all, he enforced it. The African guy who gives a shit about Africa.
 
Democrat ? Hello ? These assholes have only produced LGBT shit and pretended "accepting all colors and opinions" while cooperating with the corporatocracy.
 
Hypocrits !
 
I'm not a fan of the Reps - but they seem more trustworthy to me. Why ? Because they defend free speech and don't fall into that hypocrit do-gooder shit. This would never work.
wsucram15 Added Jun 21, 2017 - 9:53pm
Really SEF?  I have to disagree.  I don't think it matters what side of the fence you are on, honesty is part of your core values as a person, not your political party. 
I'm going to repeat myself...IT is almost IMPOSSIBLE to be honest and be in public life working in politics.   Some just lie better than others and party has nothing to do with that.
Gotta give you grief over this one, you are basing this theory on what? 
I thought of this page the other day when I heard the outline of a plan that supposedly went down to appease the moderate REP in the Senate on healthcare.   It turned out to be untrue so I didnt say anything.
This is an exaggeration but heres how things go... the typical rob peter in a bump and dump to pay Paul, to borrow from Sue so you can do a investment deal with Joseph so you can then squeeze profits from other unsuspecting partners, and then stop by your Senator or Congressman's office for favors after you drop off your monthly donation is a norm.  This way when you have to pay Sue, you have the cash flow to start the entire process over again. 
Sounds crazy and silly but Im not the one that does this stuff, I just hear and write about it and  I have heard worse.
Jenifer Frost Added Jun 21, 2017 - 11:03pm
Stone-Eater, people like Jeff think literally everything they disagree with is a "conspiracy theory" even when, as in this case regarding Clinton and the Democrat Clintonites pushing us into another world war, it clearly doesn't even fit the dictionary definition of the term. From reading some of the irrational and incoherent ramblings of Jeff it's my conclusion he is psychotic. It's a mistake to associate with his ilk because psychosis can be contagious. For the sane who don't have tweet birds flying around between their ears the following proves what the Clintonites are up to, it's quite sobering:
“We Are Inches From A New World War, And Clintonists Are To Blame” https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/we-are-inches-from-a-new-world-war-and-clintonists-are-to-blame-da51d09e4fac

Ric Wells Added Jun 22, 2017 - 12:58am
I was going to respond to your article but it inspired me to write a little piece of my own. Thanks.
John G Added Jun 22, 2017 - 2:55am
Jeffry Kelly censors the comments on his posts. His posts are entirely dedicated to promoting victimhood for his own ethno-religious grouping at the exclusion of all others.
To call him an exceptionalist would be a mild criticism indeed.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 22, 2017 - 3:58am
Jeanne
 
I guess they're all the same, those politicians. But so far the Dems were making a far more desastrous foreign policy, at least under 0bama. As I mentioned....he had the chance to correct Bush's disasters but didn't even try.
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 22, 2017 - 3:59am
Jenifer
 
Going along with mass media doesn't require brains  ,)
 
Eileen de Bruin Added Jun 22, 2017 - 5:25am
I had to go back to the beginning having read through this thread to find the original point.
 
Point found.
 
I have been too engrossed - in the past weeks - with the emergence of the dangerously high unrest in the UK which the papering over the cracks no longer can keep down.
 
Parallel US.  We still love America and the American dream although that is not the same dream as Trump's America which is that if you are great then you will make lots of money. When you do this then you are able and equipped to run America.
 
The dream of which I speak is the liberty and freedom to be rich in those senses and to be able to pursue life and happiness. 
 
Trump is so like his caricature in Back to the Future that that particular story is uncannily overshadowing these days; and it is not funny.
 
The American troops marched into Maastricht (I am here right now). In de Stadhuis (the original Town Hall) there is a plaque on the wall which thanks the Hickory Division which walked into Maastricht and its Town Hall and freed them from the Nazis. To this day, the people here are grateful, as am I and I do not dishonour the memory of those Americans who came and gave their lives to make Europe free from the Nazi yoke.
 
My deepest sorry is that those Americans' honour is degraded by the politics of today's USA.
 
It is time for you all to get a grip and, like us in the UK, start taking a long and critical look at our utterly anachronistic governing vehicles which hid behind "tradition" but without substance any more. In the UK it's hair wigs and garters and tights from the seventeenth centuries. In the US, it's the Pentagon and the White House and the Statue of Liberty and Abraham Lincoln. trappings  - I have to repeat without substance. They are liars today. Let's make them hear it. Living and governing is not all about who makes the most money. It is about respect for human rights and for human development and for those freedoms which make honouring those America troops who were here on this soil in our parents' living memories.
 
Do we get the governments that we deserve?  What is in the hearts of the Americans? God love ya.
Lisa Pomerantz Added Jun 22, 2017 - 6:37am
The US is now an international embarrassment to the world. mr t has taken us to new lows and his rhetoric and band of merry white men are turning back the clocks of history by decades. It is frightening to watch. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 22, 2017 - 7:30am
@John G.
"Jeffry Kelly censors the comments on his posts. His posts are entirely dedicated to promoting victimhood for his own ethno-religious grouping at the exclusion of all others. To call him an exceptionalist would be a mild criticism indeed."
 
No, John.  I asked you to take your argument somewhere else, write a piece about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict on your own so that people could respond to you.  I did so in a polite manner.
 
Your replied by insulting me personally.  Multiple times.  I asked you to stop, you refused to do so.  
 
That was on you.
 
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 22, 2017 - 11:23am
Eileen
 
Your comment partly sounds like an extension of my article.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 22, 2017 - 11:25am
Lisa
 
Agree, although I'm not sure if it would be better when the Bitch would have won. Either way it looks like a dead-end street.
opher goodwin Added Jun 22, 2017 - 11:53am
Eileen - I'm with you - it is about tolerance, equality, humanity, rights and freedoms, respect and responsibility. Our schools should teach empathy. Life is not about economics. It is about relationship, love and looking after the planet we live on. It is about rubbing along with all different types of people. It is about improving ourselves and others. Life should be a happy adventure - not an investment in wealth, greed and selfishness.
opher goodwin Added Jun 22, 2017 - 11:54am
Trump is simply obscene. His arrogance is megalomaniacal.
opher goodwin Added Jun 22, 2017 - 11:56am
At least Clinton is civilised.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 22, 2017 - 12:01pm
I agree, Opher.  Trump is a ginormous baby.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 22, 2017 - 12:16pm
Opher
 
Bill ? Ok. But surely not his bitch :)
 
Ian Thorpe Added Jun 22, 2017 - 12:27pm
wsucram15, yeah I can be a nice guy, so nice that if someone writes that their god created the world in seven days I'm OK with that so long as they do not tell me I can't question their belief; if someone want to write that the holocaust didn't happen or that the holocaust did happen and the only victims were Jewish, I'm OK with that even though I know about the millions of other, gypsies, homosexuals, dissidents murdered and the 'useless eaters', euthanised by the Aktion T4 policy, and I can live with people who post articles claiming there was nothing questionable in the official report on 9/11; that the world has been ruled by ten-foot tall, super - intelligent, shape - shifting lizard men for 20,000 years, or that the towers were brought down by a Bush admin - Saudi Arabian conspiracy / extra terrestrials / concrete and steel eating termites / A secret weapon developed by by Iran and North Korea, all so long as these people don't claim theirs is the only valid opinion.
What I can't tolerate is intolerance.
Ian Thorpe Added Jun 22, 2017 - 12:37pm
Eilleen, have you ever driven north on the main road through Luxembourg? Approaching on of the little towns on the route, Ettlebruck or Echternacht, at the side of the road is Gen. Patton's personal tank, preserved as a monument to the liberation. When I did the drive it struck me as a very appropriate reminder of the Nazi oppression.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 22, 2017 - 1:02pm
Perfect Princess JenJen sez: It's a mistake to associate with his ilk because psychosis can be contagious.-Conspiracy theorists are so funny when contradicted, and your statement proves you are just another online hypocrite, all concerned about civility until one of your Millennial causes get qustioned, then she starts name calling and brings up other pet conspiracies to prove her last conspiracy.  Who cares? But more to point are her accusations.  Clinton is a failed candidate that ran a failed campaign.  Seems enough, but she is plotting WWIII according to you and others believe it.  You still can't tell anyone how Clinton's plotting WWIII, and WWIII itself, benefits anyone, including oligarchs.  Improve the economy?  What, Alex Jones "sister?"
opher goodwin Added Jun 22, 2017 - 1:40pm
Jeffrey - spot on - a pampered, pouting rich-kid baby at that!!
opher goodwin Added Jun 22, 2017 - 1:41pm
SEF - Why such an enormous down on Hilary?
opher goodwin Added Jun 22, 2017 - 1:46pm
Ian - I agree. People are entitled to believe what they like or have been indoctrinated with - so long as they don't force it on others - particularly kids.
I think most of these beliefs are simply nuts but people can believe what they like.
Having visited Dachau I would, as a non-Jew, say that it was a well-documented fact and nobody can justify it. People that try to are either racist, fascists or brainwashed. The systematic mass killing of people is simply horrendous. Anybody who supports that or tries to gloss over it is despicable.
opher goodwin Added Jun 22, 2017 - 1:47pm
SEF - if it is a choice between Hilary and SuperTwerp I'd chose Hilary any day. That man is a menace.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 22, 2017 - 1:57pm
Agree, Opher.  Rather Hilary than the giant ❄️ currently haunting the White House.
Clinton has Government experience, Thump does not.  I laugh about the whole "drain the swamp" crap, he's just making it deeper.
John G Added Jun 22, 2017 - 2:34pm
Kelly is Billy the Nazi in the mirror.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 22, 2017 - 2:45pm
Opher
 
Why I bash her ? Because she has a history of a warmonger since Libya. She's absolutely non-empathic and cold as ice (at least she appeared like that). Remember how she laughed when she heard of the death of Saddam.  She's a sadistic piece of shit.
 
Trump is just a dumb clown who apparently knows how to manipulate people to get to their money. His only talent. He doesn't even have a decent vocabulary....
 
BOTH are nuts.
 
Get someone up there who can represent the people of the US. Not such poor existences.
Janie Smith Added Jun 22, 2017 - 3:49pm
I do appreciate the sentiment of this article, Stone. You did a really good job of pointing out American nostalgia. But, America is no worse place to be then it was in the 70's. Just like every bygone age, the human condition remains.
 
When I was a young girl I met a boy from India. We only knew each other for a few hours but he decided to mail me a letter after he returned home. The letter was its own paper and envelope and it had half a dozen stamps on it. I kept it for the longest time not because of what it said but because of how truly amazed I was at the effort of all that was involved in that very small bit of communication.
 
But today, here we are, talking with people from every corner of the globe in real time and even though its an amazing and cool thing that we can do this we have also set ourselves up for scrutiny and culture clash.
opher goodwin Added Jun 22, 2017 - 4:04pm
SEF - well I would agree with you about both of them but that was the choice. How out of a population that size did they come up with those two?
The establishment wants puppets.
Bernie Saunders would have been my pick. But Gitface is a total disaster. Hilary would not have built walls or pulled out of Paris. I'd vote for a glob of mucus over him.
opher goodwin Added Jun 22, 2017 - 4:06pm
John G - I agree with Kelly - Trump is a subhuman joke. He's taking America for every cent he can screw out of them. He's obnoxious in every respect.
wsucram15 Added Jun 22, 2017 - 4:20pm
SEF..thats your name man, my entire family knows who you are, or "the music guy."  LOL.
You know America has always been internally contentious, but to this degree? Nope, there has not been such a revolt like now.
I watched a disabled man get hurt in the capital today by Capital police and a woman in a motorized chair get ripped out of her chair arrested for protesting outside McConnells office. All the protestors had severe disabilities and some were really hurt, there was blood on the floor.  Disgusting..the cops were doing their job, McConnell was being an asshole.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 22, 2017 - 4:39pm
Jeanne
 
thats your name man, my entire family knows who you are, or "the music guy"
 
Hey thanks *feeling honored* :-) I sure would like to see you guys in person !
Eileen de Bruin Added Jun 22, 2017 - 4:41pm
Stone and Opher, thank you. Yes we can know the situation and weep.
There is a just struggle emerging for our rights to be, to be just who we are inside a state which supports education and the development of its citizens. Tolerance, ah yes, a lonely word in our so calle free countries.
wsucram, yes, exactly. No tolerance and degrading behaviour is the keystone now.
The questions are:
Is this to be overcome through minds and hearts or through physical struggle? 
 
If people vote for such leaders, is this what America /Britain really wants?
 
Even if it is not what they need, perhaps we should be careful what they wish for and at any human and aggressive cost.
 
The cost is the Earth.
 
Or at least, the Earth will survive but the human race will not. Climate change will get rid of us and the Earth will recover, if slowly. She does not need us for survival, we need her.
 
Could you tell Trump please? And I will tell May. Deal!
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 22, 2017 - 4:43pm
Janie
 
Thanks for joining in :-) I know that past times are often glorified....that's also human nature. Keep only good memories to stay sane, if possible ;-)
 
I didn't experience aggression when I was living in the US (except in a place called Pleasant Hill, where I stayed for a few weeks, a suburb of Frisco).
 
I can only repeat what I see and read in all sorts of media, but it indicates that the US society has become more brutal than back then. Actually we see the same here in Europe.
 
Job losses, massive immigration, refugees....take their toll.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 22, 2017 - 4:46pm
Opher
 
How out of a population that size did they come up with those two? The establishment wants puppets
 
I'm sure that the 40 million or so who'd have voted for Bernie aren't happy about what happens now. But he gave in to pressure, maybe he was threatened by the Clinton mafia.
 
You should change the constitution. A 320 million nation can NOT have ONE simple dude as president who has he power to blow up the planet. This is not Abe Lincoln time anymore.
 
Peter Corey Added Jun 22, 2017 - 6:16pm
>Bernie Saunders would have been my pick.
 
The FBI Is Investigating Sketchy Land Deal Led By Bernie Sanders’ Wife
 
"Justice Department officials and the Federal Bureau of Investigation have investigated the university run by the wife of Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders — and may still be investigating it — over the possibly fraudulent acquisition of nearly $7 million in tax-exempt bonds when she was the president of Burlington College.
 
An extremely ambitious expansion and fundraising effort spearheaded by Jane Sanders ended up bankrupting the tiny, private and now-defunct school in Burlington, Vermont. It closed its doors — suddenly and permanently — in 2016."
 
Jane Sanders bankrupted Burlington College when she was its president, just as her husband, Bernie Sanders, would have bankrupted the United States had he been elected President.
 
Socialists are expert at spending "Other People's Money" until they run out of it.
 
Remember: Ideas and elections have consequences.
 
Peter Corey Added Jun 22, 2017 - 6:20pm
Dear Switzerland:
 
". . . leading Swiss sociologist Jean Ziegler closely examines the shady relationship between Swiss bankers and Nazi Germany. Based on the records of the German Armaments Ministry and other official documents, The Swiss, the Gold, and the Dead shows how Switzerland's leading financial institutions provided Hitler with the foreign exchange essential to his war effort — laundering gold looted from the banks of occupied Europe and from the bodies of concentration camp victims; granting sizable loans; and supplying Germany's war economy with weapons, ammunition, and precision instruments. In return, Switzerland was spared the devastation that befell the rest of Europe. Ziegler argues forcefully and authoritatively that without Swiss complicity the war in Europe would have ended earlier, sparing hundreds of thousands of lives."
 
Helvetia certainly set a fine moral example for the rest of the world to follow. We are duly impressed.
opher goodwin Added Jun 22, 2017 - 7:05pm
SEF - I agree. We find these sociopaths and psychopaths rise to the top because of their ruthless lack of empathy and black and white answers to complex problems. They appear strong. They are really megalomaniacs. We are conned. The answer is, as you suggest, to spread the load.
opher goodwin Added Jun 22, 2017 - 7:08pm
Peter - we certainly see the consequences of voting this nincompoop into office. He is a lying, racist conman.
BTW I agree that the Swiss bankers have a lot to answer for.
Peter Corey Added Jun 22, 2017 - 7:55pm
>we certainly see the consequences of voting this nincompoop into office. He is a lying, racist conman.
 
The only substantiated consequence I can see, so far, is that the stock market has gone up.
Jenifer Frost Added Jun 22, 2017 - 11:23pm
"The only substantiated consequence I can see, so far, is that the stock market has gone up." 
That and because of Trump’s continued illegal Syrian war (supported by the neocons and Clintonites) we are on the verge of another world war, and possible end of civilization. Nothing major though....
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:46am
Corey
 
As you know I don't care about your blather. In contrast to you I don't make a whole people responsable for what their criminal capitalist heads do.
 
And I talk of NOW not of stuff that happened longtime ago. Want to talk about US slavery then ?
 
So better shut up.
 
 
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:49am
BTW: Are you so naive to believe that US or any other bankers are different ? You're just a stereotype dude without substance.
John G Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:53am
America was never, ever a shining light on the hill. It was an imperialist project borne of mass murder and has been on its own imperialist path ever since.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:55am
BTW2 You didn't even understand the article. It's a plea for change not a discussion about past mistakes and a thread for useless accusations of people who have nothing to do with elitist crimes . So pack your stuff and leave.
Jenifer Frost Added Jun 23, 2017 - 2:46am
Stone-Eater writes "I don't make a whole people responsable for what their criminal capitalist heads do." Good point. And one Peter should know considering that such a ridiculous thing is exactly what Adolf Hitler did to blame all Jews for the actions of a few. That's how wars, genocides, and Holocausts begin. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 3:08am
Exactly Jenifer !
Eileen de Bruin Added Jun 23, 2017 - 4:31am
Ian Thorpe - sorry, I didn't respond earlier as this is not my thread but now I can tie your comments in with the Switzerland debacle. SEF home territory! No, not on that particular road, but I,have seen many abandoned tanks at the sides of roads. Of course, they abound in Normany as well as the museums. And also in Brittany where, when you drive off the boat, you go through a village with a tank and an old red London bus! On the beaches in South Brittany are the german bunkers deeply embedded and used by sea life mollusc for homes. The dates of liberation throughout all of the towns are, obviously different. In short, there is no missing the reminders of the last war which means there is a huge American presence and a huge gratitude to this day.
Which brings me to Peter Corey and the Swiss connection, so decidedly ejected by SEF. It has a place here. Looking back to what America meant to us all and most particularly in the last war but also its after effects. Ok many nazis found a home in America, as we know, but they stopped the hellish madness in
europe. Switzerland was complicit in many things as was the Vichy government as was parts of the UK's gentry. What is the most important factor in this thread is that we all looked to America for direction and guidance and believed in their drive for doing the right thing in times of great evil. Ever thankful to America and its people, ever happily in love with all that younhave given the world including great music, it is now coming to an end.
Clinton, the male or female one....Sanders ......and Trump with whom you have ended up....implies another paradigm. These are not people of great substance whom can lead America and show true greatness which has nothing to do with filling their own pots of money.
The world must move on and look away from America for guidance.. I still reflect on those brave men who so visibly even now, drove throughout this continent and gave so much to so many. So many plaques, so many grateful people here.....school kids go to the Normandie beaches, to the sites here in Holland of the battles. There are so many of them and American cemeteries, and they are places that are kept absolutely spotlessly clean and managed. Europe has great respect and admiration for that America. For those people.
What are the values of the US today? Does your government and its peoples represent you?....
 
This is nostalgia but it is also fact and it is about values and aims. For all.
opher goodwin Added Jun 23, 2017 - 5:34am
Really Peter? That is the only consequence you can see? I'm staggered.
opher goodwin Added Jun 23, 2017 - 5:40am
The Paris agreement is of no consequence? The string of countries he has annoyed? The standing of the USA around the world? The dangerous posturing over North Korea, Iran, Qatar, China, Syria....... The health care issues, Mexico.
I don't even live there but I can see the effects are major. There is chaos in the Whitehouse, ineffective government, posturing, lying and fake news.
He's on the verge of impeachment and a string of criminal charges.
Over here he is seen as a posturing buffoon, a clown and a complete imbecile.
No consequences?
opher goodwin Added Jun 23, 2017 - 5:42am
Eileen what about Britain?
opher goodwin Added Jun 23, 2017 - 5:52am
The USA stayed out of WW2 for over two years making a fortune out of selling arms to Britain, and bankrupting us, as we stood alone against Nazi Germany. They might not have come in at all if Japan had not bombed Pearl Harbour.
Our young men died on the Normandy beaches and died in Europe in huge numbers in both World Wars. In World War 1 the USA stayed out until 1917.
There seems to be a rewriting of history.
opher goodwin Added Jun 23, 2017 - 5:58am
Jennifer - I agree.
Peter Corey Added Jun 23, 2017 - 6:54am
>And I talk of NOW not of stuff that happened longtime ago.
 
The 1940s is "long ago"? Depends on your point of view. Obviously, yours is very nearsighted. Good for you. (Deny, deny, deny . . .)
 
>Want to talk about US slavery then ?  
 
Sure. Any time. 
 
One difference, however, is that quite a few people are still alive today who suffered in WWII thanks to the Swiss bankers lengthening the duration of the war by helping Der Fuhrer and his regime of thugs. Alas, no one is alive today since the end of the American Civil War, emancipation, and the implementation of the 13th Amendment. That's a major difference between discussing those two topics. 
 
>So better shut up.
 
Jawol, Herr Schweizer Scheiße für Gehirne!
 
(And always remember to click your heels when you order others to shut up. It's so . . . charmingly Swiss.)
Peter Corey Added Jun 23, 2017 - 7:00am
>It was an imperialist project borne of mass murder and has been on its own imperialist path ever since.
 
Right. That's why all those immigrants from all over the world left their native countries to come to the U.S. — they wanted to participate in mass murder and imperialism.
 
You truly are a rich, almost limitless, vein of pure, unalloyed stupidity. No wonder you wear a mask.
opher goodwin Added Jun 23, 2017 - 9:21am
Peter your rich vein of arrogance and rudeness is typical of the brand of right-wing fascism you represent, blinkered, limited and unpleasant.
Eileen de Bruin Added Jun 23, 2017 - 9:32am
Peter - did you miss my commentary on the Swiss connections? And the wider points?
 
Opher - what about Britain?  this here is not my thread as there is much to say about the parallels between Britain and the US right now.
 
Or, have I misunderstood and you are referring to the reminders of the second world war?  If it is the latter then, fine;  the reminders in the UK are less obvious than on the continent.  This is because no tanks came over.  The bombing of cities etc. meant that war memorials abound, but it is not the same as having been occupied.  Indeed, the Americans (and others who came to support the Brits and the Americans - from Australia, from NZ etc.) launched their offensive from the shores of Britain.
 
The rebuilding in and of the continent, however, took place with aid, from America. There has been a totally different rebuilding in Britain;, after the war.
 
Aside from the social housing created by the great Labour government which swept to power immediately following the end of the war, its development has been totally and utterly hindered and curtailed. It is a very backward looking place these days. Strange as it may seem, their inadequate and corrupt governments are using Nazi tactics to feed the hate which always blames anything foreign, in general (apart from the US which it is now following) and the immigrant, in particular.  But that is a whole other story.
 
 
 
 
Bill Kamps Added Jun 23, 2017 - 10:14am
Seriously Stone?  We were the ideal of the world in the 60s and 70s when we were involved in Viet Nam, installing governments like the Shah of Iran?  when LBJ was one of the most corrupt Presidents we ever had, etc.  You pick the decade, we werent that much different then than now.  I'm disappointed you dont know better.
 
You sound like George with this romantic notion that  everything was right with the US in the 60s and 70s and somehow we then jumped the rails, what nonsense.
 
I would suggest to you  that the same foreign policy that you dont like today, has existed for more than 100 years.  Before WWII it was not able to project power easily on the global scale, but wars with Mexico, and the Spanish/American war certainly were wars of intervention. After WWII our foreign policy has been very consistent in terms of our willingness to manipulate the world, and use the military to get what  we want.
 
We always had this idea that we are the USA, we are the good guys, and whatever we do is justified.  This was Bush 41's motto, he is a good guy, so it doesnt matter what he does, it must be ok, he has said as much in interviews.
 
opher goodwin Added Jun 23, 2017 - 10:40am
Bob Dylan - With God On Our side - a song about the injustice and stupidity of US foreign policy - executed through war, subterfuge and threat.
George N Romey Added Jun 23, 2017 - 10:45am
Bill I think recent events and the ability to get more truthful information from alternative sources as gotten many Americans, me included, to see the real picture of our government.  Again, I bring it back to the happy and fat analogy.  When Americans (me included) were happy and fat, plentiful good jobs and great opportunities for people with good skills and education we tended to look the other way.  We couldn't find most of the countries on a map (like the ones RR bombed in the 1980s) and really didn't care.  It might sound callous but it was the truth.
 
After 2008 this country changed.  We saw first hand how corrupt our banking system was and witnessed how people that should have gone to jail walked away with millions while millions of Americans crashed and burned.  Suddenly many Americans woke up to the fact that we were not this splendor or goodness, opportunity, and justice for all nation.  We had been living under a façade for many years content that our lives were good.  We were as bad as many of the countries we bombed in the name of "freedom."
 
All of this has changed over the past 10 years.  Other than a few ding a lings (some found here on WB) that think government and/or corporations are still great most Americans have become frustrated by a system that increasingly is leaving most behind while the top 5%, perhaps 10%, continue to reap the glory.  A country in which 90% of the populace becomes disillusioned can be a dangerous thing.  Since the industrial revolution only in the 1930s has the USA been in such a position and at the time FDR was able to steer the country through its misery.  Definitely a different time and place when a President could be larger than life with the media helping in the image.  Hell most Americans didn't realize that FDR couldn't walk.
 
The system we now have is unsustainable long term.  When the crash comes and what it will look like is yet to be determined, too many variables to accurately predict.  So is whatever comes afterwards.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
opher goodwin Added Jun 23, 2017 - 10:49am
There is a growing realisation that the USA and Britain, indeed the world, are being run for the good of a small elite to the detriment of the majority.
Bill Kamps Added Jun 23, 2017 - 10:55am
George I started out agreeing with you but then you said this:
 
After 2008 the  country changed.
 
The country didnt change.  People just see more clearly what is being done, and how things are manipulated.  The country was always run by the  rich and powerful.  Our foreign policy since at least WWII was largely the same as it is now.
 
As you said, people were fat, dumb and happy and didnt care. Now they arent so they are paying more attention.  But that doesnt mean that the  CIA wasnt busy meddling in foreign governments and manipulating elections as we now accuse the Russians of doing to us.  It doesnt mean the rich werent trying to use any  means necessary including bribery, and murder to get their way since the times of the robber barons. 
 
Im not saying things shouldnt change, just that this country has been remarkably consistent for a great many years.  Always the we are the good guys, therefore any means necessary is ok.
After 2008 this country changed. 
George N Romey Added Jun 23, 2017 - 11:00am
No Bill the country changed in the fact that Americans began to wake up to how corrupt their government, Wall Street and many corporations were.  Maybe on some level many Americans had a sneaky suspicion but what happened in the event of trillions in bailouts and the Iraq war tore the lid off the façade. 
Bill Kamps Added Jun 23, 2017 - 11:12am
George, ok people are more aware of what is going on, so yes that changed. 
 
However, too  many people think how the country is run changed, or that our foreign policy has changed over the past 25 years.  Look at Stone's original article.  This is nonsense.  It is just more difficult to hide what is really going on.
 
 
Tom C. Purcell Added Jun 23, 2017 - 11:37am
The expression, "If you and a friend are being chased by a bear, in order to survive you don't have to be faster than the bear, you only need be faster than your buddy" works here.  
 
Why does this phrase come to mind?  It's not natural for Earth's creatures to live in permanent harmony.  There will always be conflict and war between peoples because we all want and need the same things.  The more people get, the more they want. 
 
And besides, to abandon primal instincts in favor of subsiding our inner fears will dilute our primal instincts, leading to a devolution of the human race.  As sad and dark as it might seem, there must be competition between peoples/races, at least.  I don't wish harm or suffering to anyone at all, but there will be conflict, fighting, war, violence and death.
 
Tribalism is a primal human instinct, and unavoidable.  It's a measure of survival instinct within all of us, to bond together with brothers and sisters, with our own kind.  Self preservation will come before enemy preservation, as it should.  That's my too sense, Stone.
Ric Wells Added Jun 23, 2017 - 11:48am
You know Stone well over a year ago I was writing about the fall of this nation and people comented that my outlook was too dark. Well look a us now.
opher goodwin Added Jun 23, 2017 - 12:10pm
America and Britain sure are falling.
Carole McKee Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:03pm
George N Romey: I'm in total agreement. We are starting to wake up. Some of us, anyhow. I believe the United States is still a great place to live; but it's our politics and politicians who suck. Not to mention the greedy wealthy people who believe they will never have enough, so they need more. 
 
You've heard the saying 'you can't become a doormat unless you lie down first'? Not true any more. The politicians, the banks, and all the other wealthy entities will step right on your head to get what they want. Funny thing is, they sarcastically refer to what the poor receive from the government as 'entitlements.' But who is it that really believes they are entitled to so much wealth that they should take away from the poor? 
Bill Kamps Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:14pm
Carole, it is nice you are waking up.  The US was and is a great place to live.  However, that is not the same as fair and just, it was never that. Either at home or abroad.  Our politicians always sucked, it is just that before the internet it was easier to manage the charade. 
 
The funny thing is that while our politicians suck, they are better than most, or at least our Constitution forces them to be better than most.  It is not easy for them to change the Constitution as it is in other countries, otherwise they would have.
 
Unfortunately it will not be easy to change the behavior of companies or politicians.  While a lot of what they do is immoral nearly all of it is legal.  Changing the system is difficult and what does one change it to ?  We have an economic system that is largely devoid of central planning, and we have seen countries with central planning that make things worse.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:24pm
Corey
 
Jawol, Herr Schweizer Scheiße für Gehirne!
 
Stick to English. Or grow some more brain cells in order to speak another language. Ok ?
 
For the others: He means I'm a piece of shit, at least that's what I think. Quite impossible to figure out the exact meaning.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:27pm
Bill
 
Thanks for commenting. I guess you're right on that:
 
I would suggest to you  that the same foreign policy that you dont like today, has existed for more than 100 years".
 
Your comments are always well reflected and spot on.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:29pm
Opher
 
There is a growing realisation that the USA and Britain, indeed the world, are being run for the good of a small elite to the detriment of the majority.
 
Yep. And the problem is that this elite doesn't care about nationality or culture. They're truly global, and yes, Corey, there are surely Swiss in it too.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:31pm
Ric
 
I'm always happy to read you. I imagine you sitting there calmly, thinking about all that bullshit and just sighing about all the stupidity going on on this planet ;-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:32pm
Carole
 
We are starting to wake up
 
Good. You're ahead of many Europeans, then ;-)
Ric Wells Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:34pm
It just reminds me of a quote from the movie Forrest Gump I think. "STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES."
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:36pm
LOL I love that movie. It's genius and reflects society perfectly with that twinking eye ;-)
Tom C. Purcell Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:37pm
Only the actual quote is, "stupid is, or stupid does?"
Bill Kamps Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:37pm
Stone, countries like people are neither all good or all bad.  People had an idealistic view of the US for a long time. Now they are upset as more of our immoral behavior comes to light.  We never were that fair and  moral, and today we still do some good and are not only bad.
 
Examining history shows that we always did dirty deeds to advance our interests.  However, we also did our share of good.  I am often reminded of that when I go to Europe, and people show some respect for the help we gave in WWII.  I am impressed it still matters to them, even though they weren't alive at the time.
 
The Constitution protects the citizens from some of the worst instincts of politicians in general.  However, it does little to protect the world from our politicians.  It is a little ironic that they have more freedom to meddle overseas than they do in country.   As you see Trump cant even get his immigration order through the courts, but firing a few cruise missiles at Syria is a piece of cake.
George N Romey Added Jun 23, 2017 - 1:50pm
Carole I think before the 00s the USA was a great place to live even as income inequality and an unfair system was being created.  The crash of 2008 heightened the pace and then escalated the awareness.  I remember back in the 2004 election that if anyone remotely mentioned income inequality in the US they were quickly dismissed as a loon.  Now even corporate mainstream media won't try to ignore the subject albeit they come up with lame solutions like everyone should get a college degree.
 
As the economy has imploded and never recovered but for a sliver of the population we also woke up the fact that our government is just as dirty as all those countries we saw as unjust and corrupt.
 
What will America be like in 2030?  No one knows for sure but I'd sadly bet worse than now.  The improvements Americans are screaming for just are not getting done, and instead we are witnessing front seat a daily Washington DC freak show.
Carole McKee Added Jun 23, 2017 - 2:07pm
Totally agree, George. What I find disgusting is that our "Representatives" in Washington no longer give a shit about what the citizens want. They no longer listen.  But what is even more disgusting is that the ones voted into office take the best of everything and take away whatever they can from the average American. 
 
Why do they have such an extensive healthcare plan? Why? Because they voted on it for themselves--at the expense of taxpayers! Why do they have that humongous retirement deal? Why? Because they voted for it--among themselves--without consulting those who actually have to pay for it. It's sickening! 
Bill Kamps Added Jun 23, 2017 - 2:08pm
George, before the 00s the USA was a great place to live, even though it was based on income inequality, and until the 1960s legalized government enforced racism.  Stop pretending it was once fair, and now is not. 
 
It is just that before the 00s more people benefited from the system they now find unjust.  As long as it was working for them, they really didnt care whether things were fair or not.  Now we are are "shocked, shocked there is gambling going on in here"
mark henry smith Added Jun 23, 2017 - 2:20pm
I'm sorry, but I love America. I also love Australia. That was a fun trip. And Canada. I guess I'm just a slut.
 
Let's not assume. We assume that we're entering Armageddon, when all we're really entering is the same old shit hitting the fan again. Another breakdown in the social, economic, religious traditions that keep us from going for each other's throats.
 
So many assumed that Donald Trump didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of becoming the leader of the free world. Is that an oxymoron, Trump leader of the free world? Does Billary sound better?
 
Joni Mitchell said it best, you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone. We have been screwed repeatedly in this country by one BS MF after another telling us that what we need is another war. You'd think that after the third or fourth debacle people would start to get a sense of the futility of this approach, but apparently Americans are too stupid to believe in any solution beyond giving trillions of dollars to an industry whose sole mission is to go out into a relatively peaceful world and kill people, nature, anything that will provide them with a source of income.
 
I love America. We were founded on the principle that all men are created equal with multiple exceptions. On the idea that we are a nation of laws, except in those multitude of examples where laws, treaties, rights got in the way of expanding profits for THE MAN. We have freedom of religion, but who the hell can define what a religion is?
 
We are a nation of contradictions and confusion and that's what we impose on the world when we attempt to shape it, even when we do great good. That's what Imperialism always does, always has. Welcome to my world, rest of the world. America, the great hope for Imperialism at home and abroad. But we can change that.        
Carole McKee Added Jun 23, 2017 - 2:37pm
MHS: Re: We were founded on the principle that all men are created equal with multiple exceptions. You have a point there. But lately, it feels more like all people are created equal unless you are a member of the House, the Senate, or in the White House. Then, you are superior to those who are not.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 3:21pm
Bill
 
I am often reminded of that when I go to Europe, and people show some respect for the help we gave in WWII
 
The flip side is that many people have realized the support of the Nazis by the US in the beginning and the fact that the war helped the US to boom their economy through the Marshall Plan.
 
We now have many afterthoughts. Our parents didn't...
 
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 3:23pm
George
 
Agree. Those are my memories of the US back then. I loved it. But I would not go back now, because I'd surely be arrested at the airport because I would not sink on my knees and hail the USA LOL
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 3:24pm
Marko
 
You know I like you. But please stop those platitudes like
 
the free world
 
Or was that meant sarcastically ? ;-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 3:32pm
All
 
I guess the US would be much more loved by the rest of the world when it would get rid of those contradictions they still blow out to the world, such as:
 
- The land of freedom
- Everybody can make it
- We defend democracy
- We fight terrorism
- We stand for justice
 
etc.
 
Why not simply say:
 
Hey guys, we're not better than you are. We're the same egoists as you, but we're stronger. And we don't like you to become stronger than us, wherever you are. You would do the same in our position, right ? So - forget all the veggies on the table as long as we're the meat.
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 3:33pm
BTW: Just an idea LOL
Bill Kamps Added Jun 23, 2017 - 4:13pm
Stone, then again it was the Nazi's that occupied western Europe, and stayed until the US showed up.  As I say a mixed bag, but  it is difficult to paint the US as the bad guys for France, Holland, Italy,  the UK in WWII.  No one was perfect.  Ive seen some nice memorials in the roundabouts in Holland, and there are often flowers there, and people in the towns have pointed them out to me. 
 
After all, you are the  one who said you admired us until the 70s :) just  saying
John G Added Jun 23, 2017 - 4:53pm
The USSR defeated Nazi Germany. Then Churchill and Truman stabbed them (and all the European fighters of fascism) in the back like the true scum that they both were.
The UN Charter was created and almost immediately broken by the US.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 5:04pm
Bill
 
After all, you are the  one who said you admired us until the 70s
 
Yep, but NOT in the connection with WWII (not MY generation, that is, but our parents who didn't have a clue on backgrounds did, back to WWII). Only concerning the fact that your young stood up against Vietnam, and for the music and lifestyle you brought us. Your "free" lifestyle that was propagated while we still lived in a totally autoritarian society.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 23, 2017 - 5:05pm
The USSR defeated Nazi Germany
 
Yep again. Stalingrad was the start of the end.
George N Romey Added Jun 23, 2017 - 5:53pm
The Russians fought most of the Germans in WW2.  Once the Germans surrendered the Russians agreed to help the US finalize the win in the Asian theater.  Japan was already on the ropes.  The neocons of the day convinced Truman otherwise and the bomb was dropped without Russia being notified.  That began a long history of distrust that continues today.  If Wallace hadn't been forced off the ticket in 1944 we would probably have a much better world today. 
Peter Corey Added Jun 24, 2017 - 2:09am
>Peter your rich vein of arrogance and rudeness is typical of the brand of right-wing fascism
 
Surely you meant, "Typical of the brand of classical liberalism" such as (to name but one) William Lecky, no?
 
"Fascism" should not be used as a meaningless catch-all word to refer to anything you happen not to like, Herr Gopher.
 
"Fascism" — which comes from the Roman symbol from antiquity, the "fasces": a bundle of thin wooden sticks tied together with an axe-head sticking out of the top. The symbolism should be obvious, even for a benighted dullard like you, Gopher: a single stick represents "the individual" in society; by himself, alone, weak and easily broken. But when tied to many other individuals like himself, the bundle of sticks — the fasces — is much stronger and much harder to break.
 
FascISM, as practiced by FascISTS such as Benito Mussolini, for example, as well as by the German National Socialists in their economic organization, is a variety of collectivism; a species of socialism.
 
Do I sound like a socialist? No. Ergo, I can't be a fascist.
 
Know-nothings like you, Gopher, like the word "socialism" because it contains the word "social", which you believe refers to people holding hands, singing Kumbaya at Woodstock revival barbecues, and making sincere inquiries after the health of Joan Baez ("Is she OK? What's she doing nowadays, anyway?"). Nothing could be further from the truth. "Socialism" is authoritarian in nature, based on coercion; something you apparently feel is great so long as you aren't the one being coerced.
 
I believe it was Churchill who quipped something like, "If a man, at the age of 20, is not a socialist, he has no heart. If at the age of 40, he is still a socialist, he has no head." You're over the age of 40, right? Following Churchill's insight, I think it's obvious what your problem is.
Peter Corey Added Jun 24, 2017 - 2:11am
>The USSR defeated Nazi Germany.
 
LOL! You don't know what you're talking about, GooGooGaGa. You obviously know less about history than you do about economics. And you know nothing about economics.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 24, 2017 - 6:24am
Laurence
 
Thanks for joining in. Your comments (rather a speech) leave me speechless. When I read it I thought it would easily fit into a public manifestation.
 
You made my day.
opher goodwin Added Jun 24, 2017 - 7:23am
Laurence - a breath of fresh air after the putrid breath of Corey - not so much fasces as faeces.
 
opher goodwin Added Jun 24, 2017 - 7:27am
Corey - yes it was mainly due to Russia that the Second World War was won. They opened up the Eastern Front and destroyed the Nazi troops in tens of thousands. Read the account of Stalingrad. Without that Eastern Front the D-day landings would not have succeeded. What followed was a combined effort with Britain (and its commonwealth), Russia and the USA.
opher goodwin Added Jun 24, 2017 - 7:29am
Laurence I stand full square for a compassionate society that is tolerant, equal and caring. I would like to see a world that is not run on greed, selfishness and privilege and one that respects nature and stops trashing it. That is a vision worth fighting for.
opher goodwin Added Jun 24, 2017 - 7:32am
Corey - Fascism - (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practices.
Seems to sum you up to me. You need an education.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 24, 2017 - 2:06pm
Corey
 
LOL! You don't know what you're talking about, GooGooGaGa
 
Didn't I tell you to bugger off that article ? If not, I say it now. Please write an own article where you counter Opher's arguments in clear instead of putting "GooGooGaGa" in as an argument. I've looked in Google and did not find GooGooGaga as a fitting piece for this subject LOL 
 
We're not in school here, dude.
mark henry smith Added Jun 24, 2017 - 2:27pm
And so it goes, we call each other names, and revel in our cleverness.
 
Okay, so the USSR didn't defeat the Nazis. An allied effort did, but in really thinking about it, the Nazis defeated themselves with their unbridled cockiness about the power of their war machine. Isn't that a lesson for all of us? The power of weather to dash dastardly plans?
 
Laurence, I share your outrage and admire the rhetorical style with which you express it. We in the US are a nation of misfits. None of US really belong here, except our Native Americans, but they are not part of US. You could say the same for Australia, New Zealand, on and on. We have been given the power of life and death on this planet, we of western-European extraction, with our plethora of weapons, our access to so many material objects, our control of food, our insatiable, mindless desire for more, our unapologetic incursions into other lands to rape and pillage using democracy, God, and good intentions as a blind we can hide our murderous intentions behind.
 
We have never promoted democracy in any country we've conquered. Never. We say we do because we insist on elections, but if we don't like the results, we scrap that one and have another until we get what we want, capitalism, where our capital is what is promoted and protected. Capitalism is not freedom. It is just as coercive and restrictive as Communism, socialism, or any other ism you want to name, but it does not coerce in the same way. Other isms coerce with the claim that it is a duty of citizens to be members of the state first and individuals second. We in the US say that we are individuals first, the basis of capitalist thinking, not democratic thinking. I would argue that of all of the western democracies the US is the least democratic and Trump is the epitome of all that is so wrong with US.
 
But we can change that if we create a new party that doesn't pander to capitalist indulgence. A party that allows other concerns to be voiced along with the repetitious calls for jobs and economic growth. We could call this party, The Bridge and our motto could be, The Bridge to the future. Thanks all, Peace and Love Marko     
opher goodwin Added Jun 24, 2017 - 2:48pm
Cheers SEF - Corey is one fucked up individual.
opher goodwin Added Jun 24, 2017 - 2:50pm
I'm all for the Bridge Mark. I agree with you. Capitalism is dictating what happens everywhere. It buys off, corrupts and is a tyranny.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 24, 2017 - 3:47pm
Marko
 
I knew that you join the club. I'm not too clever, but more emotional, but I think I know what life is about, at least for me. And - when there are no emotions left - what are we ?
 
The art is to find a balance between emotion and realism. And a lot of people don't have that. IF they had, no president in no country would ever make it to the top.
Peter Corey Added Jun 24, 2017 - 4:49pm
>yes it was mainly due to Russia that the Second World War was won.
 
Not according to professional academic historians, though I'm sure the remnant of aging crypto-communists such as yourself and your ilk have a vested interest in believing otherwise.
 
The tenacity of the Red Army, despite getting their Bolshevik asses kicked by the Wehrmacht on the USSR's western front, was admirable, but ultimately irrelevant.  Russia was saved by the British and, above all, by the American forces. American Lend-Lease enabled the Russians to follow on the heels of the Germans when the scarcity of equipment and the threatening American invasion forced them to withdraw from Russia. They could even occasionally defeat the rearguards of the retreating Nazis. They could conquer Berlin and Vienna when the American airplanes had smashed the German defenses. When the Americans had crushed the Japanese, the Russians could quietly stab them in the back.
 
Another reason the USSR could not have been responsible for saving its own hide from Nazi victory was that earlier Stalin had summarily executed hundreds of the Red Army's best leadership in his notorious purges, putting the army under direct control of the ideological/political wing of the government. Stalin was less concerned with experienced leadership and military competency than he was with ideological purity.
 



The only reason the Nazis could not capture Moscow (the center-thrust of Operation Barbarossa), Leningrad (the northern thrust, near the Baltic Sea)  and Stalingrad (the southern thrust, near the Caspian Sea) was their lack of munitions, airplanes and gasoline. It was the Allied Powers' blockade that made it impossible for the Nazis to provide their armies with the equipment needed, and to construct in the occupied Russian territory a transport system that could ship this equipment to the far distant front line.
 
A clearer illustration of the massive Red Army's lack of competency was its 4-month long incursion into weak Finland between Nov. 1939 and March 1940. The Red Army was at least 5x larger than Finland's military, as well as better equipped; given those lopsided odds, Soviet victory was probably inevitable yet it took more than 4 months to defeat the Finns. Given that shining example, we're supposed to believe that the same Red Army by itself defeated the battle-seasoned Wehrmacht? I don't think so.


Peter Corey Added Jun 24, 2017 - 5:21pm
>Here we are in the 21st Century and an American "Faux-President" 
 
Why would Trump be a "faux president" if he won the election? You mind clarifying that?
 
>and Russian Agent who never had the courage to fight for his country
 
Putin? I'll remind that you Bill Clinton — whom you probably voted for and think was a wonderful President and all-around nice, liberal guy — also never had the courage to fight for his country. If Putin and Clinton are both guilty of craven behavior toward military service, why criticize the former only? You can clarify that little bit of hypocrisy, too.
 
>and turns an entire Continent into a Prehistoric Swamp. 
 
Putin is turning Europe into a "prehistoric swamp"? Not Iran and its  program to develop nukes? Not North Korea? But Putin. Got it.
 
I love the Lunatic Left; the Moronic Moonbats. They'll grab onto any idea or person they dislike and then blame every problem — real or imagined — on him, her, or it. What's nice about that practice of classic scapegoating is that it entails zero thought or analysis. As Swiss-Cheese-Shit-for-Brains admitted above, one can be more "emotional" than "analytical", a form of virtue-signaling to others on the left that one is "a warm, fuzzy, mensch; a good guy who sings the right songs, applauds at the right comedy routines, and conversely, disapproves of all the "approved" things: Brexit? "Hate it. Putin's obviously behind it somehow." Increased CO2? "Hate it. George W. Bush was obviously to blame!" Trump? "An outrage. We should have direct democracy like ancient Greece. This Electoral College nonsense does nothing but subvert the Will of the People! Besides, Trump stole the election — somehow, we're not too clear on how, exactly — with the help of Russian hackers in the employ of Putin. That's the only explanation. It couldn't be that people were simply disgusted with Obama's program and didn't want to see another 8 years of it under an influence-peddling criminal like Hillary Clinton. No, that couldn't be it. Had to have been Russian hackers and Putin."
 
LOL!
 
Speaking of which, see this commentary on Russian influence in the U.S. government:
 
We finally have proof of inappropriate financial dealings with Russia
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 24, 2017 - 5:25pm
People
 
This is not a WWII thread after all. Maybe some people haven't read what this article is about or it has become too long for some ?
 
Maybe my article is not too pleasant for some so they try to change subject ?
 
Mr. Alzheimer is not on this thread - yet ;-)
 
Let's talk about NOW.
John G Added Jun 24, 2017 - 5:50pm
Anyone trying to tell you that fascism is a socialist phenomenon is probably a fascist. And trying to pass the nazis off as socialists is asinine.
Fascism is the political face of late stage capitalism. It employs fake populism to divert public attention away from the capitalists that are screwing them.
Peter Corey Added Jun 24, 2017 - 6:20pm
>Anyone trying to tell you that fascism is a socialist phenomenon is probably a fascist. And trying to pass the nazis off as socialists is asinine.
 
Nah. You're just using the word "socialist" to mean "anything I happen to like and think is good", and the word "fascist" to mean "anything I happen to dislike and thing is bad."
 
And you pretend to have a "degree" in economics? I don't think so.
 
The fascism of Mussolini's Italy and the fascism of Hitler's National Socialist Germany were socialistic in every way: they both had national health care systems, big public education programs, rent controls, public housing, public welfare programs, etc. They had pretty much everything the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics had, except for direct ownership by government of the means of production. Fascism allowed private citizens to keep title to productive property (e.g., a cow), but permitted none of the rights and privileges that real ownership entails: under fascism, the cow-owner was told what to produce, how much to produce, in what way to produce, how much to pay labor, how much to charge for final products, etc. This is not exactly ownership, and therefore, it isn't exactly capitalism. See the book, "The Vampire Economy" on what it was like to try to conduct business in Hitler Germany.
 
I'll just keep posting this little lesson in economics until you start doing a little homework. You'll thank me some day.
 
opher goodwin Added Jun 24, 2017 - 6:53pm
Corey the day I thank you for anything will be the day you stop breathing.
Arrogance is a key component of fascism. I bet you strut round your own house so pleased with yourself.
John G Added Jun 24, 2017 - 7:14pm
Fascism can also be called corporatism. It is the merger of big business and the state. Capitalism on steroids.
Mises et al were frauds, Corey. You wouldn't know economics after reading all that voodoo.
opher goodwin Added Jun 25, 2017 - 4:36am
Laurence - I am speechless at the erudite way you have put that. I concur with it.
Peter Corey Added Jun 25, 2017 - 4:42am
>Arrogance is a key component of fascism.
 
It's also a key component of communism. (Um, remember that little hissy-fit Khrushchev threw at the U.N.: "WE WILL BURY YOU!!!" Not exactly an example of modesty, wouldn't you say?)
 
So?
Peter Corey Added Jun 25, 2017 - 4:48am
>"Bill Clinton cheats on his wife. Impeach him. Trump proudly brags about sexual assault (and has cheated on his wives). Elect him.
 
Laurence:
 
You're proving yourself to be a first-class twit. Clinton wasn't impeached because he fucked around; he was impeached because he lied to a Grand Jury, a crime known as "Obstruction of Justice."
 
The Senate didn't follow up on the House impeachment, but Clinton was disbarred. (Boo Hoo. He'll never be able to practice law again. Now he'll simply have to accept payments from his wife's foreign influence peddling through a division of the Clinton Foundation known as F.O.B., i.e., "Friends of Bill". What a loss to the law profession.)
 
You have evidence that Trump obstructed justice? Present it in your next post.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 25, 2017 - 4:52am
Laurence
 
Another goodie. In fact we should get off that damn high number of -isms who are in fact only covering up the same facettes of the real political system we have (and always had):
 
Economic dictatorship. And now it smells more and more like a global economic feudalism.
 
It's a bit like the number of sexes. Once we had two, now we have n of them....LGBTREQNGFIOPSD ?
 
Getting people so confused that they at one point will gladly accept resimplification is another way to get them under total control.
Peter Corey Added Jun 25, 2017 - 5:18am
Also from Wikipedia re: the 25-points of the National Socialist German Workers' Party announced in 1920:
 
"The Austrian monarchist Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn proposed that the 25-point Program was pro-labour: “the program championed the right to employment, and called for the institution of profit sharing, confiscation of war profits, prosecution of userers and profiteers, nationalization of trusts, communalization of department stores, extension of the old-age pension system, creation of a national education program of all classes, prohibition of child labour, and an end to the dominance of investment capital.”[5] Whereas historian William Brustein proposes that said program points, and party founder Anton Drexler’s statements, indicate that the Nazi Party (NSDAP) originated as a working-class political party.[2]
 
The 25-point Program of the NSDAP:

1. We demand the unification of all Germans in the Greater Germany on the basis of the people's right to self-determination.

2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in respect to the other nations; abrogation of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.

4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently, no Jew can be a member of the race.

5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.

6. The right to determine matters concerning administration and law belongs only to the citizen. Therefore, we demand that every public office, of any sort whatsoever, whether in the Reich, the county or municipality, be filled only by citizens. We combat the corrupting parliamentary economy, office-holding only according to party inclinations without consideration of character or abilities.

7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.

9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

10. The first obligation of every citizen must be to productively work mentally or physically. The activity of individuals is not to counteract the interests of the universality, but must have its result within the framework of the whole for the benefit of all. Consequently, we demand:

11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.

12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore, we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).

14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.

15. We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.

16. We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.

18. We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.

19. We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
 
20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently in
Peter Corey Added Jun 25, 2017 - 5:19am
Also from Wikipedia re: the 25-points of the National Socialist German Workers' Party announced in 1920:
 
20. The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbürgerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.

21. The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.

22. We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
 
23. We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press . . .
 
24. We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: The common good before the individual good. (Gemeinnutz geht vor Eigennutz).[10] Has also been translated as "The good of the state before the good of the individual."[11]
 
25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration."
 
* * *
 
[It appears that about 12 of these 25 points (in boldface) correspond closely with the talking points and the aims of socialists everywhere, as well as with the aims and talking points of the Democratic Party in the U.S.]
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 25, 2017 - 9:01am
Corey
 
So what ? There are enough points in it which would benefit the regular Hans.
 
Do you prefer US hire and fire and lay off policy ? McDonalds wants to kill about 6'000 jobs by replacing them with robots ? Cool, eh ? And then tell them sorry no welfare look for another job yourself.
 
I guess you're pretty well-off financially. Other your arrogance can't be explained. No idea about the real world but pretending you know best.
George N Romey Added Jun 25, 2017 - 10:28am
SEF the government will never save us. They are embedded with the 1% whether Trump and people, Clinton and people and even Sanders-who when the tough got going he folded into the camp of his enemies.  Only when social revolt comes about will change happen. 
opher goodwin Added Jun 25, 2017 - 10:38am
I think you're right George.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 25, 2017 - 11:30am
George
 
We had that subject quite a few times and will have it in future I'm afraid. Of course you're right. But the 1% are only the 1% because the 99% seem too stupid to do something against it.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 25, 2017 - 11:49am
BTW:
 
The US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
 
Still valid. People who talk about US democracy NOW, are helpless cases :-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 25, 2017 - 11:50am
https://youtu.be/LFxyrfDOvto
 
Daniele Ganser (Swiss historian) about the US empire. For the few who understand German :-(
opher goodwin Added Jun 25, 2017 - 1:10pm
The question remains as to how we might change the establishment when it is so firmly in control.
Carole McKee Added Jun 25, 2017 - 1:31pm
GNR: Re: Only when social revolt comes about will change happen. I agree. In fact, I've been thinking that this is what needs to happen.
 
Stone-Eater:  RE: The US is an oligarchy, not a democracy. You're right.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 25, 2017 - 3:39pm
Laurence
 
*shiver*. But you're right.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 25, 2017 - 3:41pm
Carole
 
Stone-Eater:  RE: The US is an oligarchy, not a democracy. You're right
 
Just - thank you. I hope people wake up before it's too late, also here in Europe, I do what I can...
 
Peter Corey Added Jun 25, 2017 - 9:42pm
>Peter Corey - AND?
 
And therefore, it's clear from the evidence cited above that the fascist political and economic philosophy called "National Socialism" was, in fact, a species of socialism, even if it wasn't Marxian.
 
Mussolini's variety of fascism — "Corporatism" — was also a species of socialism.
 
Anything else I can help you out with, Laurence Hazlewood?
Peter Corey Added Jun 25, 2017 - 9:49pm
>McDonalds wants to kill about 6'000 jobs by replacing them with robots ? Cool, eh ?
 
Had the noble McDonald's hamburger-flippers and grease-trap cleaners not demonstrated in the streets for an unreasonable $15.00/hour minimum age for low-productivity, no-brainer work, they might have been able to retain their jobs. They blew it.
 
If you truly want to increase employment, just dispense with all heavy machinery (back-hoes, bulldozers, jackhammers, etc.) at construction sites. Then hire 100x as many crew members as are currently employed (no need for skilled labor), and just give every person a little metal spoon to dig up the ground. This way, you'll employ far more people, right? Right. Face it: heavy construction machinery only robs jobs from people.
Peter Corey Added Jun 25, 2017 - 10:15pm
>I wonder how long it would take for the 1%  to divest themselves of their ill-gotten gains if having assets in excess of  - let's be generous  - say $50 million or even $100 million became overnight a Capital offence, with their holdings prima facie evidence of their guilt  and no grounds for appeal. Immediate conviction followed by speedy determination of sentence.
 
So charming.
 
Let's do a little simple arithmetic.
 
The 2015 Census shows that the current population of the U.S. is about 321 million. If we "divest" the top 7 billionaires of all their ill-gotten wealth (Gates, Jobs's estate, Bezos, Buffett, Soros, Brin, Zuckerberg) and assume for the sake of argument that each has immediately available for divestment the amount of $100 billion (some have more, some less), the total is $700 billion. If we divided that equally among 321 million American citizens, how much would each person receive? That's a tough one. Let's see:
 
$700 billion ÷ 321 million persons = ~ $2,181.00 per person.
 
Doesn't look like much per person.
 
After distributing these checks to everyone, two things will occur:
 
1. Each citizen receiving a check for $2,181.00 would deposit it, and then spend most of it. And depending on the pattern of spending, much of it is going to end up right back in the wallets of the same billionaires from whom it was divested.
 
2. You can forcibly divest these billionaires of their wealth once. Then they'll leave the country — or simply become a free-rider like the rest of the population — and you won't have those 7 billionaires the next year from whom you can generate another $2,181.00 check for everyone. There's no reason they would continue productivity if bureaucrats are just going to confiscate all of it for redistribution. At that point, you'll have to start "divesting" those with middle-class incomes.
 
I do appreciate your honesty, as well as that of Stoned, regarding the nonchalance with which you would employ deadly force against those who have something you want. It's as I've always said: scratch a lefty, find a tyrant.
 
"Humanitarians with Guillotines" like you and Stoned are the main reason I support carry-and-conceal permits for firearms: ordinary folks need some way of protecting themselves from their self-proclaimed "protectors."
John G Added Jun 26, 2017 - 3:42am
Fascism is a capitalist phenomenon. It is driven by the ruling (capitalst class).
The Coreys of this world are indoctrinated and sent out into the world (by big business funded 'think tanks') to subvert language so as to make rational political economic dialogue almost impossible.
Fascism and socialism are fundamental opposites.
The Nazis were overt fascists who killed off the leftists very early on. Their entire racial heirarchy crap was an anti-leftist construct
Anyone trying to tell you otherwise is a liar and/or an idiot. And probably a nazi or fascist. Corey certainly is a fascist.
opher goodwin Added Jun 26, 2017 - 5:24am
Laurence - that's quite an idea, isn't it? And hits right at the heart of the problem. The problems around the world are created largely out of this greed that promotes destruction and inequality. They are falling over themselves to progress into a consumer madness with the profits scooped up into the pockets of a tiny minority. It is destroying nature, using resources, creating poverty and exploitation, and war. A cap would put a stop to a lot of that. Nobody can possibly 'earn' billions.
opher goodwin Added Jun 26, 2017 - 5:25am
Carole - it is a question of how to create social revolt isn't it?
opher goodwin Added Jun 26, 2017 - 5:28am
Well anyone who argues that fascism is socialism is obviously an idiot.
George N Romey Added Jun 26, 2017 - 5:55am
The economy never really recovered is falling apart.  Every indicator shows this country (and the world at large) headed towards recession.  Central Banks will hold it off a bit longer and Trump will get the blame.
John G Added Jun 26, 2017 - 6:39am
>Well anyone who argues that fascism is socialism is obviously an idiot.
 
Dat B Rite. Socialism is goodness, kindness, truthfulness, and beauty, with fully-cooked rotisserie chickens and roasted potatoes flying in through the open windows of the noble worker. Doctors will fall over one another to be the first one to provide modern medical care to the Salt-of-the-Earth-Manual-Laborer, so that he and his muscular productivity can remain free of disease and physical discomfort in order to keep the wheels of socialized industry turning.
 
(Sigh) So beautiful.
 
And remember (this is especially important). If anyone has a problem complying with the rules laid down by his or her superiors in government, it's obviously indicative of antisocial behavior leftover from the pre-socialist, capitalist days. Such people will have to be quarantined for their own good, as well as the Common Good, and put through a mandatory re-education program. Nothing to worry about. I'm in charge of that, and according to my brothers and sisters, I'm a gentle sweet-heart.
 
That's why I wear this mask.
Peter Corey Added Jun 26, 2017 - 6:48am
>Well anyone who argues that fascism is socialism is obviously an idiot.
 
Well, anyone who argues that socialism isn't authoritarian — and that force is an acceptable way of directing the activities of people — is obviously a sinister power-luster.
 
GooGooGaGa's last paragraph above has socialism summed up about right. I'm surprised by his honesty . . . not to mention his lucidity.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 26, 2017 - 7:22am
Mixing up socialism and communism again ?? You people have strange definitions. And none of you seems to know what social democracy is. The system we have here. No extremes. Capitalism with a shot of socialism, so to say...
 
Social democracy is consensus. That needs a bit of skill and balancing...
opher goodwin Added Jun 26, 2017 - 7:34am
SEF - I'm glad someone is talking sense. Socialism does not have to be authoritarian and it certainly isn't communism. It is a system with more democracy and fairness. Sounds good to me.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 26, 2017 - 10:20am
Opher
 
I'm talking of social democracy as we have it here in Switzerland. Not socialism ;-)
 
Swiss democracy
opher goodwin Added Jun 26, 2017 - 10:40am
Right on SEF. I'm OK with Social Democracy. What I am looking at is a system that creates a better democratic process, more fairness and justice without being authoritarian.
Carole McKee Added Jun 26, 2017 - 10:54am
Stone-Eater:  I'm going to read over the Swiss democracy a little more, but doesn't this system work better in smaller countries? Smaller that the U.S., I mean. By the way, I love Switzerland. I have some really nice memories from there.
Janie Smith Added Jun 26, 2017 - 11:50am
lol, Stone.  I guess the consensus is that US patriotism still exists. :-)
 
Jeffry, I'm with you.
 
Tom, I loved your response!
Carole McKee Added Jun 26, 2017 - 12:19pm
Opher Goodwin: Carole - it is a question of how to create social revolt isn't it?  Yes.
 
Stone-Eater: I don't remember Hillary laughing about SH's death. But she does come off as cold. I'm thinking that maybe a lot of that has to do with her upbringing. I really don't think she's a cold as she appears. Then again, she had a lot of humiliation to handle when Bill's crap came out. I truly think she handled it with dignity. It's bad enough to learn that your husband cheated, but how do you face it when the whole world knows about it? And one more point--she was competing in a predominantly man's arena. Maybe she felt she had to be less feminine and less emotional. 
 
Just thoughts. I wasn't a real fan of hers, but she was a better choice than the orange shitgibbon we are stuck with now.
opher goodwin Added Jun 26, 2017 - 1:45pm
Carole - my concern with revolt is that we always let loose the maniacs who like anarchy and violence and end up with a psychopath in control.
SEF - I feel like Carole about Hilary. I think it is hard for a woman in this male dominated world. They have to be ultra-hard and unemotional to get on. Compared to the orange buffoon she was by far the better choice. I just wish they'd gone for Saunders.
Carole McKee Added Jun 26, 2017 - 1:55pm
Opher: we always let loose the maniacs who like anarchy and violence and end up with a psychopath in control. Unfortunately, this is true. But we have to do something. In case anyone hasn't noticed, the people who have been elected into office no longer listen to the people who put them there. 
 
I don't know about Sanders. His ideas were good, if not leaning toward impossible; but his demeanor was crazy. the way he constantly screamed at the podium made him look like a madman. I was afraid he was going to have a heart attack.
John G Added Jun 26, 2017 - 2:41pm
John G Added Jun 26, 2017 - 6:39am
 
That comment is not from me obviously. Corey is so dishonest and his arguments so weak that he has to pull shit like that.
opher goodwin Added Jun 26, 2017 - 3:22pm
Carole - He was passionate though and he seemed to stand for something better than the others.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 26, 2017 - 3:24pm
Carole
 
doesn't this system work better in smaller countries
 
I'm not sure but I don't think so. The federal system is not far from your US states, actually. The only difference is that we have no president (no power concentration on one guy), more parties to choose from, and people can vote directly on all issue. Of course we have lobbying and influence by the economy through the media, but with a well-educated population they don't have an easy game to get through with everything.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 26, 2017 - 3:26pm
Janie
 
The best way to show that patriotism is to throw out all those rich interest groups who fuck up the country !
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 26, 2017 - 3:32pm
Carole / Opher
 
I've considered your arguments about Clinton. May be true - or not. But often in politics a woman tries to be the better man - for example Thatcher. Women are often too emotional and not enough diplomatic (Has Trump the wrong gender ?), and she could have chosen between a) stay a woman and get empathy into the game or b) try to be more manly then a man or c) stay off the game.
 
She should have decided well before campaigning. But she chose b) from the beginning and that cost her the presidency.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 26, 2017 - 3:34pm
BTW: Of course I was, seen from Europe, for Sanders. But when he switched camp and embraced Clinton, I thought: what a coward. He would have won as an independent. But maybe he was threatened. JFK greets.....
opher goodwin Added Jun 26, 2017 - 3:45pm
Yes I think she did choose b. It was a mistake. We desperately need more empathy.
Bernie did back off. But was that due to threats or because they needed to unite against the orange menace?
George N Romey Added Jun 26, 2017 - 6:17pm
People want to claim that a country as diverse as the US can't have a social Democracy.  That's bull.  That assumes certain groups don't want to accept personal responsibility while having a concern for society as a whole.  People crave dependability, stability and comfort.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 26, 2017 - 6:22pm
George
 
We have three different mentalities here in Switzerland. A French, an Italian and a German one. And we are a nation because we wanted it. No problem.
 
The US has n mentalities and all feel American. So where's the problem ? Each state has different economic interests, agrarian like Nebraska, Kansas or the Dakota's, tourist ones like Florida, business ones like NY. When all interests are considered, where's the problem (again) ?
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 26, 2017 - 6:26pm
Opher
 
We desperately need more empathy.
 
4get it LOL The West has lost that. That's why more and more Swiss leave the country when they're on retirement and go to Asia, Africa or South America. Where they feel that they're not dead yet.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 26, 2017 - 6:42pm
Patrick Writes Added Jun 27, 2017 - 2:44am
Weren't the 42 negative confessions in ancient Egypt a different concept from actual commandments? A dead person passing into the underworld would state these (I have not killed anyone, I have not told a lie, I have not stolen something, etc...) and if their heart was light they'd be rewarded in the afterlife? If they failed, they would be punished or cease to exist.  
 
That's a different concept to commandments or laws for the living to follow. Me thinks, as usual, many are desperate to discredit the Bible and if they can't find ways, they stretch the truth to do so. 
 
Especially when you consider in the Old Testament, it was a given that people wouldn't be able to follow the 10 Commandments which is why sacrifices were always being offered for the sins of the people. The Jews weren't expected to, at their death, be able to say they never broke any of the commandments. That's why all the great guys of the Old Testament were always recorded messing up and God having to forgive them. 
Patrick Writes Added Jun 27, 2017 - 2:53am
If any legal system that existed prior to Moses means he "copied" the 10 Commandments off them, then Moses must have copied lots of dudes. There is the Code of Hammurabi. I'm sure the Sumerians before him that must have had a list of moral guidelines to follow. I'm sure ancient Egypt did have something although I'm not sure the 42 Negative Confessions were it. 
 
But the whole line of logic is silly to me. Any law in any culture that predates you passing a law means you copying someone? Really? 
 
In Western law there is the important concept of legal precedent but, again, not sure that we're copying the Code of Hammurabi every time a state amends its laws on murder or manslaughter. 
opher goodwin Added Jun 27, 2017 - 7:44am
So Patrick you really believe that Moses went up a mountain talked to God and came down with the ten commandments on tablets of stone? And these tablets, produced by none other than God and hence of immense importance, somehow got lost?
Most of the stories in the old testament have their origins in Sumerian legends. Coincidence?
mark henry smith Added Jun 27, 2017 - 11:36am
Enter your comment here...
mark henry smith Added Jun 27, 2017 - 11:38am
Woe, I have read all the comments and I have just a few things to add. One of the tricks of rhetoric is to bog people down in definition so we don't have an argument over salient issues, but semantic arguments that mean nothing.
I agree with Peter Corey. The National-Socialist agenda sounds very much like any socialist ideology where the individual is required to first and foremost define themselves as members of the state. The Nationalist element, requiring blood lines to some mythical band as a requirement to become a citizen, or remain a citizen, is shear madness. Wouldn't a Jew who had been born of a mix of Jewish and German blood be carrying the necessary baggage? No, because there is no logic to hatred. Jews were seen as evil personified, and anything they had contributed was seen as tainted. I think this is much the same way many people now see Muslims, liberals, conservatives, etc... Got hate, well you'll surely have some perverted argument to support it, because that's what hate does to people, makes them perverts.
That is the real problem in the world, that we have a world that allows perverts to rise to positions of power and use their authority to twist policy.
No one really hates rich people. We would all like to be rich and have the choices that wealth provides. We would be insane not to want that, since our wealth would allow us, if we were good, to do more goodness. I don't think that from anything I've heard that Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, or Jeff Besos is evil. They seem to be relatively smart people who got lucky being in the right place at the right time with the right ideas. And after you get your first couple of billion, it's not really that hard to get another billion. The money will come to you like iron filings to a magnet. Marx's greatest contribution to our present situation was the knowledge that once capital becomes an end in itself and not a means for promoting productive enterprises, capital will eventual dominate all other interests and lead to a massively unfair social structure. Let's not forget that Adam Smith recognized this potential too.
What is obscene wealth? At what arbitrary number does legitimate accumulation of wealth become obscene? There is no obscenity in wealth, since so many have made clear human wealth in the modern world is based on nothing more than numbers, numbers that people believe in, and give value to by that belief. What is obscene is how wealth is used. I am much more concerned by how the government spends it's vast wealth than by how Bill Gates does because government has an assigned social responsibility to spend its money wisely, while Bill Gates does not.  
 
I think these really wealthy people really want to make a better world, but exactly what that is is in dispute.   
mark henry smith Added Jun 27, 2017 - 11:53am
And further,
 
I do not agree that just because taxing the wealthiest citizens and corporations will not make the kind of difference to our economic situation that people hope, that it is not in society's best interest to do so. One of the great problems in the US and the world is the perception of unfairness and tax policy isn't meant to make us all equal, but to eliminate the idea that government is not fair in its dealings with its citizens, for if government can't do this, it will lose its legitimacy and we will spiral into chaos and anarchy, or even worse, a military dictatorship, which we may already have.
 
My fear is that information gathering won't just be used to protect us from hostile terrorists, but will be used to weed out ideas that threaten an entrenched status quo, or ideas that are deemed hate speech because they ask questions some powerful groups don't want answered. Remember, people, Jews first, Muslims second, Catholics third, and on down the line. Hate speech is as made up by the system of control as money is. If I call a woman a bitch, is that hate speech? What if she calls me a bastard first? What about cock-sucker? What about dyke? How many words need to be banned to prevent hate? It would seem logical to assume all of them.  
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 27, 2017 - 1:07pm
Marko
 
We've gotten to the point I wanted to avoid at first but was sucked in too: A discussion about -isms and religion in general. My original thought was:
 
We all need each other to let humanity survive. No matter which culture or religion. No matter which super power will emerge in the future: No leadership is eternal.
 
Maybe I forgot to say: What -ism.
wsucram15 Added Jun 27, 2017 - 1:38pm
Dear USA;
Please come to your senses and work together as a unified people.  Then work with the rest of the world to solve your problems and those of those that need the strongest to survive.  Dont try to solve the problems of those that do not seek you out.  But be compassionate to those that do.
Carole McKee Added Jun 27, 2017 - 2:02pm
Opher:  Bernie was passionate, but so is Elizabeth Warren. 
Stone-Eater: Bernie wasn't a coward. He teamed up with Clinton to try to beat the shitgibbon. Like in sports. All season, teams battle against teams in their league, but when the big deciding game(s) come, teams want to see the team in their league win. 
 
And: people can vote directly on all issues. In Switzerland? Sign me up! You have no idea how violently pissed off I get when I think that our government took it upon themselves to vote for full-pay retirement and healthcare for life. Taxpayers pay for it; yet the taxpayers are being denied decent healthcare coverage.
 
The best way to show that patriotism is to throw out all those rich interest groups who fuck up the country ! When can we start? 
 
Yes, Hillary did choose B. It did cost her the election. But for as long as I can remember, men have said women couldn't be president because they are too emotional, too weak, too soft, too compassionate, too menstral. She wanted to prove she had balls. But the truth be told, the voters wanted to see compassion and empathy. Hillary didn't hit on personal issues with people, like shitgibbon did. He convinced the unemployed that they were out of work because of the Mexicans, and he was going to fix that. Then he had a beef with the Muslims and said he would fix that, too. He didn't have to say how--just that he would. Hillary touched on all the issues, but never said what she would do about them. We all know what problems we have in the country. We all wanted solutions to them. Shitgibbon had solutions--as stupid as they were.
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 27, 2017 - 2:05pm
https://www.facebook.com/droppolo/videos/10211134771183848/
 
A nice example of what this country has become. I guess we're right to look for other "ideals" which are a bit more civilized than this LOL
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 27, 2017 - 2:07pm
Jeanne
 
Thanks.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 27, 2017 - 2:09pm
Carole
 
Bernie wasn't a coward. He teamed up with Clinton to try to beat the shitgibbon
 
He must have known that he would never have had a chance against the deep state which Bitchary is part of. He should have realized that people need emotions, and Trump gave it to them. The female ice block didn't. I still believe as an independent he'd have won.
Carole McKee Added Jun 27, 2017 - 2:11pm
Yeah. See? Shitgibbon has somehow convinced the knuckle-draggers that they now have a license to harm those who are different. 
 
I believe I mentioned how much I love Switzerland. Now that I know the politics and the ideals, the country is even more appealing. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 27, 2017 - 2:13pm
BTW:
 
You have no idea how violently pissed off I get when I think that our government took it upon themselves to vote for full-pay retirement and healthcare for life
 
How the hell is it possible that tens of millions of young and educted people don't have a chance to fight those delusional ones whose only word for whatever change is "COMMUNIST !" ?
 
Is it like in Africa where the media and the digital giants dumb down the population (or KEEP them dumb) ?
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 27, 2017 - 2:15pm
BTW2:
 
But the truth be told, the voters wanted to see compassion and empathy. Hillary didn't hit on personal issues with people, like shitgibbon did.
 
You answered. Sorry, I replied too fast ;-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 27, 2017 - 2:21pm
BTW3:
 
When you see that video: Did anyone ever address such issues which are a result of a general disorientation, lack of education respect and growing poverty ?
 
THAT should be 1st on any prez' agenda, not shit like trying to secure an empire abroad.
 
I really feel sad for the US public. They had the impression to be born or immigrate into a "god paradise" country and now they slowly realize it's turning into a frightful hell for a big part of the people.
opher goodwin Added Jun 27, 2017 - 2:23pm
Carole - but it's good to be passionate about the right things in the right way.
Carole McKee Added Jun 27, 2017 - 2:44pm
Opher: Yes, it is. 
 
Stone-Eater: This prez appealed to the ones who needed someone or something to blame for their lot in life. It has to be somebody's fault that these uneducated, unemployed, lacking in gray matter bunch don't drive Cadillacs and don't live in mansions. Right? Must be the Mexicans and the Muslims' fault. Oh, and don't forget Obama. His fault. Why that black Muslim from Kenya took the job right out from under some white guy. And who wants a woman running the country? She should be home cleaning her house and cooking for her husband. That's probably why he strayed in the first place. That, and she wouldn't give him the loving he needed. 
(I'm curious to see if anybody actually believes these are my opinions.)
John G Added Jun 27, 2017 - 2:45pm
Smith. any socialist ideology where the individual is required to first and foremost define themselves as members of the state.
Rational adults don't cast broad aspersions over things that they know nothing about. Try learning before you make a fool of yourself in future.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 27, 2017 - 5:54pm
Carole
 
This prez appealed to the ones who needed someone or something to blame for their lot in life.
 
Short and spot on. And - you ruined the question if someone believes that opinion by asking that question ;-)
 
But you see it fits into the time. That organized LGBTLKJGFDZFJ shit disorients people as much as the Internet in general. One has to LEARN digital media and to differ. If not, he will be lost and yearn for simple solutions as the Donnie or even the Bitch would have proposed.
 
MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN.
 
Ok. Do it. But you won't. No matter if you are G, B, T, or whatever PC defined existence :-)
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 27, 2017 - 5:58pm
What the US (NOT America) has to learn is that there are different cultures and habits on that planet since thousands of years, and they won't bow to Hollywood or plastic as easily as a country which doesn't know what a historical grown country is does.
 
But weapons can make anybody obeying - for a short time, that is.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 27, 2017 - 5:59pm
historically, sorry ;)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 27, 2017 - 6:02pm
BTW: I see a connection between "God's own country" and "God's chosen people".
 
Both are miscalculating in the long run. Arrogance doesn't pay out ;-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 27, 2017 - 6:07pm
The ONLY thing I accuse US citizens is: They don't reflect and think. The motherland of the Internet seems the most ignorant. Hello ?
 
But I have hope for the 60 or so million youngsters who voted for Bernie. Too bad they didn't take the streets. Maybe because there were too much army on the road (that's what your police appears to us Europeans) ?
Peter Corey Added Jun 27, 2017 - 11:18pm
>They don't reflect and think.
 
Neither do you, Jurgie. You said so yourself when you admitted being more "emotional" than "analytical." I agree with your self-assessment, though "puerile" is a more accurate term than "emotional."
John G Added Jun 28, 2017 - 4:09am
Corey couldn't make an honest argument if it was in his own interest. He is a liar first and foremost.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 28, 2017 - 6:31am
Corey
 
"puerile"
 
Childish, ok.
 
A lot of fun for an ultra-arrogant Anglophone to use uncommon words on another person who is NOT anglophone, right ? Solche Schnösel wie du werden wirklich dringend gebraucht.
Carole McKee Added Jun 28, 2017 - 11:51am
Stone-Eater:  Not sure what all of these letters stand for. LGBTLKJGFDZFJ  And can explain what you mean here? Ok. Do it. But you won't. No matter if you are G, B, T, or whatever PC defined existence :-)
And you ruined the question if someone believes that opinion by asking that question ;-) Not sure why you feel that way.
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 28, 2017 - 1:57pm
Carole
 
Joke. The ones after LGBT are fake. I was just mocking about the whole subject.
 
(I'm curious to see if anybody actually believes these are my opinions.)
 
Sorry, you didn't put a question mark on it. But either way what I wanted to say is that remark makes it obvious that these are NOT your opinions.
Carole McKee Added Jun 28, 2017 - 2:09pm
Okay. I thought maybe that was it, but wasn't sure. By the way, do you know what the Q stands for in LGBTQ? I'm really getting sick of all these special interest groups. We have a president who lies about everything, makes no sense half the time, and the other half of the time he's contradicting himself, has shady dealings with more than just Russia, and is unhinged. Yet special interest groups are worried about their "rights," We all need to be worried about where our country, as a whole, is going to end up.
I don't think that sentence is a question, since I wasn't really asking. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 28, 2017 - 2:40pm
I'm really getting sick of all these special interest groups.
 
Me too. Same in Europe.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 28, 2017 - 2:41pm
BTW: US citizens have it in their own hands on how to deal with their masters. The rest of the world are merely spectators.
Carole McKee Added Jun 28, 2017 - 3:11pm
I believe people should have a right to live the lifestyle they want, but what about my right to live a quiet life and not have to listen to any bullshit?
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 28, 2017 - 4:03pm
Carole
 
Ask the media LOL
Eileen de Bruin Added Jun 29, 2017 - 6:01am
Hello SEF and all contributors, I just went all the way back again to find Laurence. I can find no input from Laurence. Am I going doolally?
 
This thread evokes many sentiments and passion and it is interesting to read all contributors' efforts. The US is a little mixed up in its drivers and emotions and has been woefully let down and betrayed by its ruling classes and the elite. Same in the UK. Parallels are key. But, the real question is do we get the government that we deserve? We did vote them in in spite of the marginal arguments about infiltration. Fact is that the passions have not wiped out these right wing people, so they are in place. It is not about being right wing either, it is about a dreadful lack of vision and modernisation and serving the people with respect. There is none of these factors on offer.
 
If I see Trump stomping around like a kindergarten bully and that awful Sara Palin playing the revolting, loud-mouthed know all and all American lady, then I am reminded of Boris Johnson the buffoon and Amber Rudd the self-satisfied, supremely arrogant home secretary in the UK.
Continental Europe is the way forward methinks.
Or China!
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 29, 2017 - 8:49am
Eileen
 
Thanks. I agree.
 
opher goodwin Added Jun 29, 2017 - 10:10am
Eileen - I agree. I don't know - is anywhere safe on this planet?
Carole McKee Added Jun 29, 2017 - 12:36pm
Opher: Good question. 
Stone-Eater:  Which media? LOL!
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 29, 2017 - 12:54pm
Carole
 
For example
 
CNNBBCFOXRTJAZEERANBCARDZDFTF1NYTUSATODAYDERSPIEGELLEMONDE.
 
You choose LOL
mark henry smith Added Jun 29, 2017 - 12:56pm
First, Stone, thanks for a wonderful thread. The level of involvement is encouraging.
 
opher, define safe. Safe from mayhem, perhaps. Safe from global warming and the impact it will have, maybe not. Safe from the poisons we use to exert our will on the planet, certainly not. We all appear to have become test subjects in a Nazi experiment on the effects of stress on human health.
 
John G, what is your problem? Are you really Expat using another fake identity? All socialist, communist, communal systems of control, at their core define the individual as first and foremost a member of the state making those obligations paramount. Is this news to you? If it is we need to ignore you for being a total idiot. I am not saying that it is wrong to do this, just that it places the individual wants and needs in secondary status to state wants and needs.
 
The capitalist system takes the opposite approach. I am not saying that this superior either. I think that all systems of control need a balance between the two absolutes.
 
We have seen in this thread how the two sides view one another. The capitalists see the socialists as childish dreamers, and the socialists see the capitalists as heartless mercenaries. I think the truth is not so clear cut.
 
One of the advantages of a parliamentary system is that small niche parties can gain great influence in a dominant party's need to build a coalition. It allows smart, but unpopular movements to carve a foothold. The weakness of the American system is we allow lobbying to serve this function, and as we've seen, lobbying in the US has much less to do with making sense, then making cents.
 
Love to all from Marko Noyes     
 
 
George N Romey Added Jun 29, 2017 - 2:23pm
Great words Marko.  I've read a lot about the genesis of lobbying and it was first and foremost about making money. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 29, 2017 - 4:20pm
Marko
 
Thanks a lot. Seems that you're one of the few who understands it as I meant it.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 29, 2017 - 4:23pm
BTW:
 
I think that all systems of control need a balance between the two absolutes.
 
Well said !
Eileen de Bruin Added Jun 29, 2017 - 4:52pm
Opher, yes. Is there anywhere safe on this planet? No. I think you were posing a rhetorical question. You are a balanced thinker.
SEF  As usual, it is about the overall psycholigical impact of the governing classes in any country it ... supposedly ... "serves"... might it serve itself? Any organisation has to have a purpose for being and serve those ends. If, however, the organisation in itself becomes self-serving then it becomes a self-serving organism and leaves its original purpose subject to its will. So it changes everything And that is politics. You, also, balance your thinking.
Mark Henry, yes it needs the balance between the two. But if the organism itself ... the governing one... becomes self serving then there is no balance. The people are not properly represented as a whole.
It is not politics that will help us in the end unless we subject it to balance, as in the real balance from the people whom it purports to represent.
So, er.... how do we get to that state of being?
 
Answers on a postcard please, preferably one of the great Statue of Liberty! Now, there is a thought!
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 29, 2017 - 6:47pm
Eileen
 
If, however, the organisation in itself becomes self-serving then it becomes a self-serving organism and leaves its original purpose subject to its will.
 
That's why some big crooked "NGO's" fucked up the image of thousands of REAL NGO's. My own one had to stop because of them. We lost support, although I was always on site. But apparently you need big money for ads and pics of starving children on Xmas.....what a hypocrisy !
mark henry smith Added Jun 30, 2017 - 1:35pm
OMG, the praise is staggering, but I will attempt to merit it.
 
Eileen, I only see one way out of our present mess and it is a complete meltdown of the systems that have led us here. The complacency engulfing a vast segment of our citizenry is one problem that might never be fixed, since once people give up it's extremely hard to bring them back. And for the rest who believe in the rightness of this system that is so obviously corrupt and flawed, it will only take a sound knock on the head to get them to take another look, something that only complete devastation can accomplish.
 
But this does not mean complete devastation to our system or the world, but merely devastation to their balance sheets, which if you really study them are complete BS anyway. My agenda, if I had power, would be a government that never hands out money to any private enterprise, but is in the business of providing services to the citizens that the private sector can't, or won't provide efficiently or equitably. And these services would have to be open to all citizens, not just a select few who have been given the title, DESERVING of Special Treatment. A government doing that is a corrupt government.
 
Okay, more a quick note than a postcard.  
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 30, 2017 - 3:38pm
Marko
 
Right.
 
But like Alice Cooper said: "We're all crazeee !"
Eileen de Bruin Added Jul 1, 2017 - 1:11am
Mark Henry, but you are describing a socialist  agenda.
 
Note Carey, thiis is not socialism so don't give me any lexicon or etymological crap. Words' meanings change and reflect the times.
 
Yep, socialist policies to provide proper public infrastructure to all, whilst enabling a partnership with capitalism can work well.
 
SEF. NGOs yes. Any organisation including charities and such like are perfect covers for the shady dealers. Politics is the great evil really. 
 
Politics implies taking sides, bargaining and shady deals.  It is about self aggrandisement and having lots of money and power. Perhaps we need a new .....itics.....balanced and proven non self-seekers?  Plenty of them around but they don't catch the media's eye.  
And those that do, get killed.
RIP. Rest In Politics eh?
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jul 1, 2017 - 7:12am
Eileen
 
Yep, socialist policies to provide proper public infrastructure to all, whilst enabling a partnership with capitalism can work well.
 
-> as I say: Social democracy. But I guess only Europeans understand that.
Eileen de Bruin Added Jul 1, 2017 - 5:35pm
SEF -perhaps this is what Americans are craving, but have no avenue to go down. Their political system, similarly to,the UK, right now, precludes it with the fears of some kind of radical socialist...read Communist for America...agenda.
 
Do we need a new ..ism?  Peopleism? Wider popularism? What about World Citizenism?
 
Can this ideal or concept work out?
 
Why is destroying the planet a good idea anyway, for any ...ism? Our current political agendas mean war at all and any cost.
George N Romey Added Jul 1, 2017 - 7:41pm
Marko there are certain services left better in the hands of the government because they are essential to living.  The free market is not always the answer in the same way that government is never always the answer. The smart societies like Scandinavia have figured out a good blend but by no means are their countries perfect. However, their quality of life is much better while their corporations compete very effective on a global stage.  
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jul 2, 2017 - 5:14am
Marko
 
I don't understand why the US doesn't adapt a more democratic system and doesnt curb high finance lobbying....
 
 
 
Carole McKee Added Jul 2, 2017 - 12:05pm
Stone-Eater: I don't understand that either. I have signed many petitions concerning high finance lobbying and big-money donations to campaigns, but apparently they go nowhere. Ever read the book "Animal Farm"? I believe we may have hit the end results of that analogy.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jul 2, 2017 - 12:43pm
Carole
 
Good example. Good book too :)
 
 
Carole McKee Added Jul 2, 2017 - 12:56pm
Yeah, it was.
Ric Wells Added Jul 2, 2017 - 1:10pm
Because that might cut into the power structure of the elite and the caste system they are developing. Can't mess with the money now can we. 
mark henry smith Added Jul 2, 2017 - 3:19pm
Okay, I'd like to think that eventually we get this figured out and decide, less is more, but doesn't that sound like Newspeak? But less pollution is more healthy. And less greed is more equitable. And less ... you get the message. More is only more in the target area.
 
We like choice. It's human nature to like something that you choose more than something that you're forced to have, even if what you chose is less satisfying. And advertisers, PR people, lobbyists, they all know this, so they use this idea of choice as a bargaining chip. They say all of the time in healthcare that what people want most is choice, but I have to believe that's a lie, because it doesn't make any sense at all. It would seem obvious that people want good care at a price they can afford and if there are no choices that provide that, what's the point of having to pick a bad choice?
 
That's where our politics are. In fact I would say that if we look at where we are in just about every area in the social sphere, we're being given a plethora of bad choices, as if by design. As if the power brokers know that if even one good choice gets offered, a reasonable and manageable choice, it will opn the floodgates and people will start demanding better. If people don't know any better, they can't demand better. That's how our system works. Limit the argument to the choices that suit your goals.
 
And I'm all for private-public partnerships, Eileen, except the way they get drawn in the US is for the private to take most of the profits, and the public to take most of the risk, a recipe for public indebtedness to support private institutions.  Hey, that's what we have now.
 
Here's the ism I'd like to see. Rationalism, not Nationalism, or Radicalism, or Scoundralism.
Eileen de Bruin Added Jul 2, 2017 - 4:14pm
Mark, yes. I did not mean to imply public-private partnerships in public health care. This should be wholly in government hands if it were a sound policy to enable optimal healthcare, with choices, without any private and profit desiring facets. Public private partnership, as such, shoukd be highly suspect and monitored; regulated. I merely imply that enabling a capitalist backbone to business and commerce can be to the good of the society as a whole and provide the taxes to pay for the public health care and social care and housing projects. Not at all that the capitalist agenda could serve the overall piblic services.
 
Rationalism. Yes. I can go with that. And Respect for the human being and public services. Respectionalism?
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jul 3, 2017 - 11:02am
Marko
 
And I'm all for private-public partnerships, Eileen, except the way they get drawn in the US is for the private to take most of the profits, and the public to take most of the risk, a recipe for public indebtedness to support private institutions
 
Exactly ! That's what happens here in Europe too,. Fortunately we're not fully in the EU and NATO, if we were, we'd one day have to defend US interests....
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jul 3, 2017 - 11:03am
Eileen
 
Respect ? What's that ? The last place I find that is in so-called "uncivilized cultures" LOL
mark henry smith Added Jul 3, 2017 - 11:49am
Stone, I'm with you on this idea of respect. The way these big wicks say it, it sounds more like reject. "And I reject my good friend from the other side of the aisle, even though I think he's an idiot." It's way overused and uttered with complete insincerity. Namaste. I respect the spirit in you. I can say that without having to make any value judgment about you. We have president who has nothing to offer except value judgments. What an asshole, but I respect the fact that he doesn't shit where he eats.   
Carole McKee Added Jul 3, 2017 - 12:21pm
Mark Henry Smith: but I respect the fact that he doesn't shit where he eats.   Are you sure? I wouldn't put anything passed him. 
 
How can anyone respect a man who can't take criticism, who lies about everything, who deludes himself into believing he is the best at everything, while he holds the highest office in the country? 
 
And who can respect a man who claims that he doesn't pay taxes because he is smart? Does that mean that those of us who do pay taxes are stupid?
 
How can we respect a man who is ridiculed by the leaders of other countries? https://www.popsugar.com/latina/Vicente-Fox-Telling-Donald-Trump-Quit-Video-43697006
 
One more point: When a person constantly tells people he is smart, has a good brain, has a high IQ, and is great at everything, he probably isn't. A person who actually has these qualities doesn't have to tell anybody. People automatically know it.
mark henry smith Added Jul 3, 2017 - 12:27pm
Hey Stone, I posted this here because ....
Okay, Jung's idea of the archetype is a wonderful concept on the limits of human perception, but there are very few individuals who have the objectivity and intellectual acumen to be able to see themselves accurately and make sense of what they expose, even fewer who find a path towards a better self within the self.
 
The modern world of  consumerism, materialism, exploitation, all done in the name of self interest, a term that can be twisted to accept any behavior, make collective action to advance good causes nearly impossible.
 
Arab Spring as a victory for democracy? Is that a joke?
 
The colonial powers, when they left the areas they controlled, after raping and pillaging the spoils, left democracy, right? People could vote, but if you don't change the power structure all democracy will do is entrench it further. So Egypt had an election, Muslim Brotherhood, started rewriting laws in ways that we (Israel) don't like, so install a military dictator, because we know who runs the military, people sympathetic to our cause. Then, after a period of routing the parties that trouble you, you have elections again and look, now the military dictatorship is popularly elected. Isn't that special? Didn't Saddam Hussein win election?
 
Anyway, JJ, all the kumbaya talk of peace and love is great, but it fails to pass the smell test. Israel is a democracy that holds an entire population in ghetto and the world looks on passively. It is a police state as is the US, put in place to protect a privileged few from the rule of the many. The reality is that if we'd really allowed democratic principles to guide our foreign policy and not capitalist exploitation, the world might be a better place. But we have no control world with which to form a legitimate argument.          
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jul 3, 2017 - 4:36pm
Marko
 
but there are very few individuals who have the objectivity and intellectual acumen to be able to see themselves accurately and make sense of what they expose, even fewer who find a path towards a better self within the self.
 
I will always wonder about that. We're a flexible species, and it's not a matter of IQ generally. So WHAT is it what makes people empathic ?
 
I guess a combination of age, experience and flexible mind. But even that has to have a SOURCE.
Eileen de Bruin Added Jul 3, 2017 - 5:31pm
If we seek, we will find. It all depends what we seek, of course. Most people are afraid of the unknowns, the enemies, the alternatives and so they choose and re choose the devil that they know.
 
Perhaps we need to reflect on what IS. 
 
I suppose that the fact that we are all sharing perceptions and thoughts is a great intellectual push inside of the local and wider psyches. This is the way onwards and, ultimately, upwards isn't it?
 
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jul 4, 2017 - 7:14am
Eileen
 
Yep.
The Burghal Hidage Added Jul 10, 2017 - 7:51am
SEF -
 
 A good article and a useful perspective. As with any article of this nature there is a lot to be learned from all of the comment that follows. I think I will need to make my next post to address a lot of these questions.
 
The United States is not perfect. Human Beings are not perfect, ergo no country is perfect. Frank Zappa ( yes, I have the audacity to quote Zappa ) once wisely observed that the United States is a nation of laws poorly written and randomly enforced. This observation encompasses what ails this republic. We had a script to work off of. It was brilliant, and provided the participants adhered to the roadmap of the founding, though it would still never be perfect, it would have remained a model to aspire to. An establishment has grown in Washington that has an executive washroom with the Constitution furnished as their own private brand of toilet paper. Of course we are off if the path! Despite the picture portrayed for you by media outlets with their own dishonest agenda do not for one minute think that most Americans are not aware of this.
 
Opher - We are not populated by rabid gangs of religious zealots. If you want to find that try looking at places like Iran.The majority of Americans claim no religious affiliation at all. Do we have a lot of churches? Why yes, we do. We also have a lot agnostics, atheists, pagans and others you couldnt imagine. The reason why this diversity of thought and religion exist simultaneously in this country is because much of the first ten ammendments of our Constitution are collectively a compact for the respect and preservation of the right of individual conscience. John Wayne was an actor, apparently you were unaware of that. The same country that produced John Wayne also produced Emerson, Thoreau, Daniel Berrigan, Walt Whitman and Jello Biafra.
 
If you are one to suggest that 9/11 was an inside job I will tune out anything else you may have to say on that subject. I may still hear what you have to say on other topics, but on 9/11 conspiracies dont waste my time. I wont have it. Those theories suggest that the same government that cant get out of its own way or stop a flood of leaks from their own state department and intelligence services is capable of pulling off such a collosal ruse. Really. Do you have any idea how foolish that makes you look if you subscribe to such nonsense?
 
Never mind what comes out of Washington. Washington is not what makes America America. Truth be told we'd have been better off if those nutjobs had succeeded in hitting the rest of their targets in DC. It is a cesspool. Let me tell you what most of us think. We dont want to rule the world. We'd be only too happy to leave all of the rest of you to your own devices and just get on with our own business. We don't give a shit about you? Yeah, you're right. Most of dont really give a shit about the rest of the world and I'll make no apologies for it. If that makes a macho cowboy asshole? Oh well. If it bothers you thats your problem, not mine.
 
I do agree that the Iraq war was a mistake. I'm not going to waste any of our time trying to identify or assign motives. I will tell you why I think it and the rest of this sham of a war on "terror" is a huge mistake. You can stick your head in the sand if you want, but the truth is Islamic jihadists do pose an existential threat not only to the United States, but to the rest if western civilization. London. Paris. Paris again. Brussels. Nice. Manchester and London again. Last I checked these are not American cities.
I think its a mistake because it is half assed. It fritters away wealth, life and limb in a piecemeal fashion that ultimately does little to resolve the underlying issue. If you are going to fight the war then fight the damn war and be done with it! Either all in or just dont bother at all. There is the mistake, plain and simple. Grow a pair and tell the Islamic world that if they don't fix their problem then they leave us no option but to do it for them. Also make sure that they understand that if it is left to us it wont be pretty. There will be pain and there will be blood. And when it is all left in ruins we are not going to rebuild it. You can use all of your petro dollars and do it yourself. You will reap what you have sown. We did not choose this fight, it is being put upon us. Until we show the resolve to do what must be done this will only get worse. Much worse. When some jihadist attack inflicts damage a thousand fold of 9/11 what do you suppose happens? There wont be a safe haven for muslims anywhere. For right or wrong, innocent or not, that will be the consequence. All of your idealism and harmony will be trampled in the dust. If more muslims are convinced that this is where this is headed for them maybe they'll start to get serious about their problem.

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