Eisenhower's Death Camps Holocaust denier Meme #3

I'm feeling a bit lazy (again) so I thought I'd share with you something I wrote at Skeptics about "Eisenhower's Death Camps:

 

There is a subset of Holocaust denial that claims that the German POW camps set up in the Rhineland were "death camps" where, allegedly, a million German soldiers died.
 
Basically the story goes that Eisenhower hated Germans so much he set out to murder a large portion of the German POWs under his control after the war. He subjected these German POWs to terrible conditions including lack of shelter and starvation rations. There is some implication that Eisenhower was a Jew or had Jewish ancestry.

These claims seem to center around a book called "Other Losses," a book written by James Bacque. Full disclosure, I have not read this book and, based upon what I've read about it, I will not ever read this book.

What Bacque says, essentially, is that in the Rhinelind POW Camps German POWs perished because of mistreatment, disease and starvation. The US refused to allow the Red Cross to feed or treat these men, they also refused to allow the local population to feed them. This despite the fact there were rations to feed these men, collected in Italy. Also, the US servicemen mistreated these POWs, even committing murder. There was no shelter built for these POWs and the camps even contained women.

As far as I can tell, James Bacque is not a Holocaust denier. He wrote fiction before researching this book.

Now, author and historian Stephen Ambrose reviewed the book and convened a panel to discuss the book.

One of the first things Ambrose did was to praise Bacque about actually writing about a difficult subject, on that hadn't been researched before.
The second thing Ambrose did was to dismiss Bacque's findings.

Bacque believed that there was not a food shortage in Europe in 1945, that the allies had warehouses full of food, that the US turned away the assistance of the Red Cross and that the German POWs were on starvation rations.

Ambrose corrects these assumptions. There was a severe food shortage in Europe in 1945. As early as February of 1945 Eisenhower wrote that the food situation was dire and was requesting additional food shipments to feed both the civilian and military population of Europe. Ambrose noted that the official ration for the German POWs, 1550 calories, was the same ration for Paris (granted this ration was sometimes not met for the prisoners but this was the same everywhere). The official ration in the USSR was lower while this was just a little higher in Britain. Yes, there were warehouses full of food but this was a stockpile, the allies feared a severe food shortage and were preparing for it.
Yes, the US turned away the Red Cross but this was to feed Dispaced Persons.

So, in essence, this subset of denial is based upon false conclusions. An example is over 600,000 Volksturm simply released, apparently Bacque included these numbers in the dead, the reality is these members of the Volksturm (young boys and old men) were released because they weren't a threat. Instead of one million deaths the number is, officially, around 56,000 out of around five million POWs.

This should not cloud the fact that these men (and women) were housed in terrible conditions and some were mistreated. Ambrose does praise this aspect of Bacque's book.

What deniers do is try to build a moral equivalency between the camps the Germans ran and what Eisenhower did to the German POWs.

 

Comments

Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 3:50pm
I wanted to link you to some denier sites about this:
http://www.rense.com/general46/germ.htm
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 3:51pm
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 3:52pm
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 3:52pm
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 4:23pm
I replied on my thread. Sorry ;-)
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 4:30pm
I read it.  And replied.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 5:45pm
BTW: I'm a Helvetian, that means we are cousins of the Germans. Helvetians are a side part of the Alemanni which are related to the Germans.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemanni
 
So we're a very old tribe, in fact LOL. And naturally we're close to the Germans, since we also speak a German dialect, High-Aleman. Unfortunately only Southern Germans understand us ;-)
 
That does not mean that we support genocides or aggression and wars in general. For that, we're too civilized. We leave that to the US ;-)
 
But, admitted, we have also profited from the wars around us. Why not ? The ones kick each other's heads, and the third stands aside and collects the purse.
 
Not our fault that some only understand physical force LOL
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 5:47pm
"That does not mean that we support genocides or aggression and wars in general. For that, we're too civilized. We leave that to the US ;-)"
 
Hey now!!!!!  Uncle Adolf declared war on us!!!
LOL
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 21, 2017 - 5:50pm
BTW
 
The ones kick each other's heads, and the third stands aside and collects the purse.
 
Why does that remind me of Iraq, Cheney and Halliburton ? ;-)
Jeff Michka Added Jun 21, 2017 - 6:28pm
What deniers do is try to build a moral equivalency between the camps the Germans ran and what Eisenhower did to the German POWs.-Ah, but it's those "good white Germans" being abused, hence greater "magnitude and proof" by racial lines.  Much like those other poor  white Germans dusting up in the debris fields of Dresden and Hamburg.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 7:18pm
@Stone-Eater:
"Why does that remind me of Iraq, Cheney and Halliburton ? ;-)"
 
LOL
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 21, 2017 - 7:22pm
@Jeff Michka:
"Much like those other poor white Germans dusting up in the debris fields of Dresden and Hamburg."
 
I struggle a bit with the bombing campaigns of the Allies, Jeff.
 
That being said all of this lies in Hitler's lap.  No warmongering, no bombers over Germany, no Red Army in Germany.
Bill Caciene Added Jun 22, 2017 - 12:34am
Denying The Holocaust occurred is quite different than suggesting the Americans killed German POWs in mass.  In other words, no matter how many German POWs were killed, doesn’t change the facts related to The Holocaust.  
 
More importantly, why are you wasting your time addressing Holocaust deniers?  Do you think you're going to change their mind?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 22, 2017 - 7:23am
@Bill Caciene:
"Denying The Holocaust occurred is quite different than suggesting the Americans killed German POWs in mass."
 
It's important to be accurate.  What happened to those German POWs is and was wrong but that's not an excuse to exaggerate what happened to them.  
 
"In other words, no matter how many German POWs were killed, doesn’t change the facts related to The Holocaust. More importantly, why are you wasting your time addressing Holocaust deniers? Do you think you're going to change their mind?"
 
No, not really.  But, again, I believe in accuracy.  Why should they distort the historical record and I can't correct it?
Dino Manalis Added Jun 22, 2017 - 8:19am
It's probably not true, but if it is, it was revenge for the Holocaust!  That's why peace through strength is so important to prevent such events from ever happening again!
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 22, 2017 - 8:35am
Dino, at that time the extent of the atrocities against the Jews was unknown.  It still doesn't excuse the conditions the German men and women were kept in.
Bill Caciene Added Jun 22, 2017 - 3:15pm
Why should they distort the historical record and I can't correct it?
 
They’re not distorting anything.  They’re choosing to agitate people like you.  Outside of their little denial club, nobody really cares what these people think, so why give them the time of day?  My advice is to write about a subject whereby you increase your field of potential readers to those that believe the Holocaust happened. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 22, 2017 - 3:41pm
@ Bill Caciene
"My advice is to write about a subject whereby you increase your field of potential readers to those that believe the Holocaust happened."
 
I do both.  I hope to teach others about this subject, those that want to know more.
Bill Caciene Added Jun 22, 2017 - 3:46pm
All you ever write about is the Holocaust and from the standpoint of educating crazy people (deniers).  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 22, 2017 - 4:17pm
Bill, I wrote this:
http://writerbeat.com/articles/16826-GOP-Congressman-Shot-During-Congressional-Baseball-Practice
 
I've also got some things I'm thinking about that have nothing to do with Holocaust denial.  I want to talk about the Concentration Camp system, I've also got something in mind about Soviet POWs during the war.
 
Naturally I have some other things I'm thinking about that have nothing to do with the war.  
 
I have a wide range of interests, this is just one of them.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jun 22, 2017 - 5:26pm
Jeffrey
 
 I hope to teach others about this subject, those that want to know more.
 
A lot of us are tired of that old bullshit (same with 9/11) and wish that we could get to the stage to PREVENT such shit and not let it happen again, and then mourn and complain for decades after.
 
Because that don't help anybody.
 
It's not a matter who has done what when for which purpose. It apparently happened. And it should not happen again.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 22, 2017 - 6:28pm
Stone-Eater, the key to that statement is "those who want to know more."
 
We write about we know and like, Stone-Eater.
Tom C. Purcell Added Jun 23, 2017 - 11:10am
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 23, 2017 - 11:40am
Tom, that's fascinating but what does that have to do with anything?
Tom C. Purcell Added Jun 23, 2017 - 11:41am
the generic response to your meme articles, especially this one... "ha ha ha ha ha"
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 23, 2017 - 11:56am
But, no thoughts?  Responses?  That's kind of the point.
 
Also, where did I mention the SS?  This is about the treatment of German POWs.
Tom C. Purcell Added Jun 23, 2017 - 11:59am
Oh that's right, SS men were shot dead on the spot, if not tortured by the Red Army first.  Otherwise the SS would be included in "German POWs".
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 23, 2017 - 12:31pm
"Oh that's right, SS men were shot dead on the spot, if not tortured by the Red Army first. Otherwise the SS would be included in "German POWs"."
 
All of the SS were tortured and shot?
Tom C. Purcell Added Jun 23, 2017 - 12:38pm
Ah geez don't play that way, Jeffrey.  Those who didn't fight to the death on the battlefield were summarily executed by the Red  Army in particular, but also by the U.S. Army.  There were some survivors of the SS.  Some endured Stalin's gulags, some escaped their SS identity and blended into the Wehrmacht - which wasn't 5 star treatment either.  But of course the SS had some survivors here and there.  The SS man was the most demonized German of all and you know that, don't ya?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 23, 2017 - 2:01pm
@Tom Purcell:
"Ah geez don't play that way, Jeffrey. Those who didn't fight to the death on the battlefield were summarily executed by the Red Army in particular, but also by the U.S. Army."
 
Where do you come up with this stuff?
 
"There were some survivors of the SS. Some endured Stalin's gulags, some escaped their SS identity and blended into the Wehrmacht - which wasn't 5 star treatment either. But of course the SS had some survivors here and there."
 
OK, so let's see.
I don't have the numbers in front of me but I'll assume that you do.
At it's height how many SS were there? Keep in mind there multiple types of SS, from the Waffen SS to the camp SS.
What number survived the war? I think, going from memory, that at its height the Waffen SS had two hundred thousand members. Is that right? If so, how many survived the war?
(From memory, the Waffen SS had a mortality rate of 25% which is very high.)
 
"The SS man was the most demonized German of all and you know that, don't ya?"
 
Well, I think to some degree this was colored by the fact that the SS ran the camp system and that the SS also ran the Einsatzgruppen Death Squads. I can see that, they are mostly associated with the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 23, 2017 - 6:16pm
Amazing, all I have to do to drive Tom off a thread is to ask him for proof of something.
John Minehan Added Jun 23, 2017 - 7:00pm
The period after WWII must have been something of a moral mine-field.
 
I served in the FRG from 1985-'89.  The people who ran the Ammo Supply Points at Truppenübungsplatz Grafenwöhr  and Truppenübungsplatz Hohenfels were fairly obviously not ethnic Germans. 
 
Later, while at HTA as an aerial observer, where I had time on my hands, I found out that were the descendants for the most part of people held at the Displaced Persons Camps that occupied the sites between 1945 and about 1955.
 
I would suspect that the films The Third Man (1949)  (set in Austria), the last sequence in The Victors (1963) (set in Berlin) and A Foreign Affair (1948) (set in Berlin) may give a fairly accurate feeling for the time.  
Jeff Michka Added Jun 23, 2017 - 7:57pm
Jeffrey Kelly notes: I struggle a bit with the bombing campaigns of the Allies, Jeff.-I don't.  They were earned, and to that extent should have been anticipated by both Hitler and Goering.  At least Goering who claimed to have read Guilio Douhet's "Theory of Frighfulness."  That was also a book Arthur Harris had read.  Turnabout in wartime is fair play.  I do agree: all of this lies in Hitler's lap.  No warmongering, no bombers over Germany, no Red Army in Germany.  AND- WHY? to drive Tom off a thread is to ask him for proof of something.  oL Nazi Tom has a hard time with facts when he's hyping the Third Reich.  Then fantasy as fact will do as long as it's good legend...
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 23, 2017 - 8:12pm
Jeff M., I'm going to direct you here if you want to read this:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26916
 
I'll invite you to join us, if you'd like.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 23, 2017 - 10:45pm
Jeffrey Kelly sez: Jeff M., I'm going to direct you here if you want to read this-THANKS for the invite, Jeffrey.  Just gave the link a scan and will read fully after supper.  I mat well join the discussion.  I have a pretty tough view of tactical and strategic bombing in war time, and it will probably raise a few eyebrows a bit, but that was the nature of WWII:  brutal at so many levels.  We talk, even jest slightly about Dresden and Hamburg, but we did a real nasty job in the Pacific theatre that makes Europe look like a mild excercise, IMO. 
Jeff Michka Added Jun 23, 2017 - 10:46pm
"I may well join the discussion.," pardon.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 23, 2017 - 11:08pm
Absolutely true, Jeff M.
Tom C. Purcell Added Jun 24, 2017 - 11:21am
Lol, y'all are such pussycats.  I'm not wasting my time pitching you boys softballs as "proofs" so you can find a link or two to dispute it.  That just gets silly.  I've been on WB long enough.  I don't fall for it.   
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 24, 2017 - 11:31am
@Tom Purcell:
"Lol, y'all are such pussycats. I'm not wasting my time pitching you boys softballs as "proofs" so you can find a link or two to dispute it. That just gets silly. I've been on WB long enough. I don't fall for it."
 
Tom, if you say something I expect you to prove it.  If you don't I'll conclude you don't know what you are talking about.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 24, 2017 - 11:34am
Oh, BTW, Tom, I extend an invitation for you to come here:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewforum.php?f=39
 
I notice that deniers don't like to go there....after all they don't like to expose how little they know of the history involved....but I extend the invitation out of courtesy.  I find it's easier to discuss things like this there but I understand deniers are intimidated by people that know more than they do.
Tom C. Purcell Added Jun 24, 2017 - 11:46am
Jewey Kelly, You've got a lot to learn.  Of course, don't we all?  I don't know everything about WWII, never claimed to.  You don't know all that there is to know either, as no one does.  I, however, after years of dedicated study have continued to realize that the Germans weren't evil, that Hitler was not a madman, and if anyone started WWII it was the allied powers.  I've also come to the firm belief that there was no Jewish holocaust, not as we know it.  There wasn't a secret plan to round up and kill Jews.  It was not a war of religious ideals, only social, cultural, economic and political ideals - national issues.  Hence, nationalism was born in Germany, then thrived.  Nationalistic principles are not evil. 
 
There are so many facets though.  The concept of lebensraum and how it evolved, along with the perception of Russians and Slavs being "untermenschen".  These concepts became fanaticized as the war closed in on Germany.  Propaganda went wild as a means of trying to save the Reich. 
 
There was not an innocent party involved in WWII, as far as I'm concerned.  But I have come to the conclusion that Jewry prevailed and the forces of light were conquered.  The Wehrmacht and Waffen SS were conquered by armies of seven nations.  The Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffa, overwhelmed, fought gallantly to the bitter end.  And oh how it was bitter. 
 
The tit for tat, link-dodgeball isn't for me.  I'd much rather hear your perception of the big picture, as I share mine.   
Tom C. Purcell Added Jun 24, 2017 - 11:57am
P.S. feel free to bring the skeptic party here to WB.  If you think I'm unaccustomed to opposition than you are mistaken.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 24, 2017 - 12:26pm
@Tom Purcell:
"Jewey Kelly,"
 
Well, I'll give you some credit for being original.  People just usually call me a Hasbara or just a plain old Jew.
 
"You've got a lot to learn."
 
I never claimed otherwise.
 
"Of course, don't we all? I don't know everything about WWII, never claimed to. You don't know all that there is to know either, as no one does."
 
That's true.  It's amazing how much there is to learn.
 
"I, however, after years of dedicated study have continued to realize that the Germans weren't evil,"
 
Why would it take years to conclude that?
 
"that Hitler was not a madman,"
 
I never claimed that and I correct people that do.
 
"and if anyone started WWII it was the allied powers."
 
LOL
Uh, oh.  First disagreement.
Look, by invading Poland, a country allied to both France and Britain, in spite of all warnings to the contrary, Hitler caused the war.  Hitler hoped that by signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact it would shake allied resolve.  It didn't.  Also, Britain and France saw no reason to trust Hitler anymore after Hitler violated the Munich Agreement.
 
"I've also come to the firm belief that there was no Jewish holocaust, not as we know it. There wasn't a secret plan to round up and kill Jews."
 
OK, you can convince me by showing me what happened to all of those missing Jews.  With proof, no guessing allowed.
 
"It was not a war of religious ideals, only social, cultural, economic and political ideals - national issues. Hence, nationalism was born in Germany, then thrived. Nationalistic principles are not evil."
 
That depends.  There's nothing wrong with being proud of one's country.  However, it's not an excuse to trample on the rights of others.

"There are so many facets though. The concept of lebensraum and how it evolved, along with the perception of Russians and Slavs being "untermenschen"."
 
Interesting, maybe you should write something about it and we can discuss it then.
 
"These concepts became fanaticized as the war closed in on Germany. Propaganda went wild as a means of trying to save the Reich."
 
Why don't you write something about it?

"There was not an innocent party involved in WWII, as far as I'm concerned."
 
OK, I'll agree.
 
"But I have come to the conclusion that Jewry prevailed"
 
That sort of thing really doesn't work for me but, again, you can write about it and we can discuss it.
 
"and the forces of light were conquered."
 
Tom, the maudlin stuff doesn't really work for me, either.
 
"The Wehrmacht and Waffen SS were conquered by armies of seven nations. The Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffa, overwhelmed, fought gallantly to the bitter end. And oh how it was bitter."
 
Well, it didn't help that Hitler forced them to.

"The tit for tat, link-dodgeball isn't for me. I'd much rather hear your perception of the big picture, as I share mine."
 
Well, that really isn't my direction but I'm flexible.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 24, 2017 - 12:27pm
@ Tom Purcell:
"P.S. feel free to bring the skeptic party here to WB. If you think I'm unaccustomed to opposition than you are mistaken."
 
Well, this kind of format really isn't their cup of tea.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 24, 2017 - 12:50pm
Nazi Tom Purcell sez: Jewey Kelly, You've got a lot to learn.  Of course, don't we all?  I don't know everything about WWII, never claimed to.- You know you've gotten to Nazi Tom when he starts accusing you of being a jew.  Tommy longs for nice things to be said, and nice dreams about the glory of the Third Reich, he loves that as much as he claims his vaunted knowledge as the ultimate historian, so he's trying to cover his previous lies...AGAIN.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 24, 2017 - 12:52pm
LOL
Jeff Michka Added Jun 25, 2017 - 5:53pm
Wow, Still no Nazi Tom appearance, or another WB Nazi touting the Third Reich.  Guees ya' got 'em for the moment, Jeffrey Kelly.  Good un on ya'.  LOL
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 25, 2017 - 5:53pm
Yes, all it takes is asking for proof....LOL
Jeff Michka Added Jun 25, 2017 - 6:04pm
Jeffrey Kelly: Finally had time to read the thread you sent me to.  Interesting but not a surprise in the dialogue.  Let me think through some replies and comments, as well as align my ducks.  AGAIN, THANKS FOR THE POINTER AND INVITE.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 25, 2017 - 6:09pm
Anytime.  We enjoy new members.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 25, 2017 - 6:10pm
Naturally I invite all the deniers I come across but they don't know enough about history to join in.
Janie Smith Added Jun 26, 2017 - 4:37pm
I am not sure how much of that is accurate because I don't know much about it.  But my family came over to the US from Austria in about 1892 and I can remember my grandma telling me about how people sometimes treated them here in America...mostly just name calling and dirty looks but they were careful to stay to themselves and their own churches and communities.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 26, 2017 - 5:01pm
I saw your comment on Tom's new article, Janie.  Sadly I think Germans still get painted unfairly on what happened during the war.
 
Jeff Michka Added Jun 26, 2017 - 6:52pm
Jeffrey Kelly sez: Sadly I think Germans still get painted unfairly on what happened during the war.- Hmmm.  like in the Fawlty Towers EPISODE, "The Germans,   ' after Basil Fawlty had gone through a series of German slamming jokes, one of the German tourista says"Stop it!  We, (gestures to the other touristas) didn't start it." Basil: "Yes you did, you invaded Poland."  I think this German guilt stuff is a little overplayed, and nobody the least bit rational points at Germans and abuses them for WWII.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 26, 2017 - 6:55pm
Jeff, I met a German woman once in a training class.  She brought the whole thing up before I did, almost like she expected me to bash her about it.
 
I told her that it was not an issue for me, that the past was the past.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 26, 2017 - 8:39pm
Jeffrey Kelly notes: She brought the whole thing up before I did, almost like she expected me to bash her about it.-WWII, Nazis, Hitler... Even though the Biily the Nazi/Nazi Tom stuff reeks of good white Germans as pass seems generationally silly, it says something about what younger people are taught, including how others may view their society's past.  And not necessarily in a glowing light, although blaming a German under70+ for things that went on in the 30s and 40s is absurd.  Younger Germans need not be persecuted for the proverbial "sins of the father." I hope it wasn't a training session of Seimens...
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 26, 2017 - 8:44pm
LOL
No, new employee training for the state agency I work for.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 26, 2017 - 9:57pm
in response JK SEZ: I hope it wasn't a training session of Seimens...No, new employee training for the state agency I work for.-ah, good thing.  Now jokes about "over engineering" can be made...LOL
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 26, 2017 - 10:13pm
LOL
Dannl Yoder Added Jul 8, 2017 - 9:34pm
@jeffrey Kelly, son, you have to admit, that killing 8 thousand people 24/7/1460 days to exterminate 6 million "targeted victims" plus fight a debilitating war is quite the accomplishment.
Especially when the 1933 world book States that there were only 3.5 Million of these "targeted victims" in all of Europe. Now, just consider the effort of using 8 thousand bullets one day, 8 thousand kettles one day ( to shrink heads)  8 thousand bars of soap every day ( tractor trailer loads 95 pallets of 10o cases of 24 bars to a load)
Well, let's burn 8 thousand bodies day,  I have cut wood for heat and cooking all my life so, maybe I can tell you that cords of wood ( dry) would have to be 3 miles high and over a mile long to burn in one day? What an inferno! And to think that you will burn 8 thousand bodies a day is folly. ( a kind and gentle word for NO!)
Well, that was Monday, so let's dig massive graves to hide these bodies. Every day,! 8 thousand! The heavy equipment needed to do this staggers the mind. Let us hide these pits we dig every day, who will know.
You gotta hand it to anyone who expects you, Jeffery, to believe this was done without admiring this Magician act and mathematical  phenomena? Heck we can't even keep a motor running and the Germans did this every day? Wow!
Dannl Yoder Added Jul 8, 2017 - 9:49pm
For anyone interested, read Corrie Ten Boom.
Have your hanky ready because she hid Jews from the "Nazis" her folks built "hidden rooms" to hide them.
The inept and stupid SS could not find them!
Imagine! No record of materials bought. No noise of hammers, saws, and other sounds of construction, and from the outside, who would even see this small room that was going to take in jews?
 Of course there were no shuffling of feet, coughing, sneezing and " other bodily noises" while dufus, the Goose Stepper, tapped walls and  listened for noises.
No shop keeper ever said, Corrie! You buy enough good every day to feed three families.. Out side of your own.. What gives.
It is all in Corrie's book. Get one today!
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 8, 2017 - 10:33pm
@Dannl Yoder:
"@jeffrey Kelly, son, you have to admit, that killing 8 thousand people 24/7/1460 days to exterminate 6 million "targeted victims" plus fight a debilitating war is quite the accomplishment."
 
Well, we've all heard how efficient the Germans were.

"Especially when the 1933 world book States that there were only 3.5 Million of these "targeted victims" in all of Europe."
 
Dannl, most of the world's Jews lived in Europe and most of those Jews in Eastern Europe.  There were about nine million Jews within German reach.
 
"Now, just consider the effort of using 8 thousand bullets one day,"
 
Huh?  8 thousand bullets a day is a drop in the bucket during wartime.
 
"8 thousand kettles one day ( to shrink heads"
 
The allies found and documented like two heads.  They were from Polish prisoners, not Jews.  That is if they weren't relics from Germany's colonial era (I've read conflicting stories on that, they also might be Soviet).
 
"8 thousand bars of soap every day ( tractor trailer loads 95 pallets of 10o cases of 24 bars to a load)"
 
I'm going to take a wild stab at this and assume you are talking about "Jewish soap."  The Germans did, in fact, manufacture small amounts of soap near the concentration camp at Stutthof in Poland.  They used dead bodies but these were not Jews, they were Soviet or Polish prisoners.  There were rampant rumors about the Germans turning Jews into soap but this was false.
 

"Well, let's burn 8 thousand bodies day, I have cut wood for heat and cooking all my life so, maybe I can tell you that cords of wood ( dry) would have to be 3 miles high and over a mile long to burn in one day? What an inferno! And to think that you will burn 8 thousand bodies a day is folly. ( a kind and gentle word for NO!)"
 
You can burn 8 thousand bodies a day if you use a combination of crematorium and open air pits (Auschwitz-Birkenau).  The only time this happened was in the Summer of 1944.  The furnaces were coke-fired, not wood.
Now, when the Germans were cleaning up the bodies at the Action Reinhard Camps they used grates to burn bodies. They used this same grate system in Dresden to burn bodies and US soldiers found this grate system used at the Ohrdruf concentration camp.  

"Well, that was Monday, so let's dig massive graves to hide these bodies. Every day,! 8 thousand! The heavy equipment needed to do this staggers the mind. Let us hide these pits we dig every day, who will know."
 
Is the assumption that this happened only at one location?  Because that is false.

"You gotta hand it to anyone who expects you, Jeffery, to believe this was done without admiring this Magician act and mathematical phenomena? Heck we can't even keep a motor running and the Germans did this every day? Wow!"
 
Why every day?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 8, 2017 - 10:34pm
@Dannl Yoder:
"For anyone interested, read Corrie Ten Boom.
Have your hanky ready because she hid Jews from the "Nazis" her folks built "hidden rooms" to hide them.
The inept and stupid SS could not find them!
Imagine! No record of materials bought. No noise of hammers, saws, and other sounds of construction, and from the outside, who would even see this small room that was going to take in jews?
Of course there were no shuffling of feet, coughing, sneezing and " other bodily noises" while dufus, the Goose Stepper, tapped walls and listened for noises.
No shop keeper ever said, Corrie! You buy enough good every day to feed three families.. Out side of your own.. What gives.
It is all in Corrie's book. Get one today!"
 
I don't read survivor memoirs.
Dannl Yoder Added Jul 8, 2017 - 10:57pm
@jefferey, the Germans had to dispose if 8 thousand corpses a day- minimum to kill 6 million in 4 years.. Or less.
Grinding their bones? Stand outside in a field..you and 80 others to throw 8 ,000 bags of dust, flour, grain, to the wind. Picture that in your mind.
8,000 rounds of ammo every day...every day? Is neglible in a war? Haha. Work with me here a little, we are talking about the mist stupendous act in History. Only God can kill ,6 million people,,just like that ( snaps fingers) and no logistical problems.
Let's give these Germans credit!
How many Jews did you say was in German reach? You did not read the 1938 world book, and in the 1945 world book there was an increase in Jews. Magic? It rankz right up there with his the Germans hid 8,000 bodies everyday.. Including the liberation by the Allies.
I have a book, Jeffery, it is called NEVER AGAIN.
It is a prize! A treasure trove. I rank it next to my complete set of the Babylonian Talmud.
It defys belief! Let us applaud the magic of the Germans if nothing else. Needing a mass grave the size of a football field,  to dispose of bodies that would have to be around 10 deep. After a few years, earth is sunk and maybe...maybe some vegetation that does not look suspicious. C'mon, can't we applaud this trick that still baffles the mind?
You really think 8,000 bodies can be burned every day. Give a big hand. Shall we stand now for a word from VolksWagon? :)
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 8, 2017 - 11:26pm
@Dannl Yoder:
"@jefferey, the Germans had to dispose if 8 thousand corpses a day- minimum to kill 6 million in 4 years.. Or less."
 
Not all of the bodies were burned.
 
"Grinding their bones? Stand outside in a field..you and 80 others to throw 8 ,000 bags of dust, flour, grain, to the wind. Picture that in your mind."
 
M'kay.

"8,000 rounds of ammo every day...every day? Is neglible in a war? Haha."
 
Yes, it is negligible in wartime, especially in a major battle.
 
"Work with me here a little, we are talking about the mist stupendous act in History. Only God can kill ,6 million people,,just like that ( snaps fingers) and no logistical problems."
 
I'm not really into the whole "God" thing.
There were extreme logistical problems in the disposal of so many bodies.  One of the issues I've seen is the contamination of ground water.
 
"Let's give these Germans credit!"
 
I do.

"How many Jews did you say was in German reach?"
 
9 million.
 
"You did not read the 1938 world book, and in the 1945 world book there was an increase in Jews. Magic? It rankz right up there with his the Germans hid 8,000 bodies everyday."
 
You mean the World Almanac thingy?
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/worldalmanac.html
 
 
. "Including the liberation by the Allies.
I have a book, Jeffery, it is called NEVER AGAIN.
It is a prize! A treasure trove. I rank it next to my complete set of the Babylonian Talmud."
 
I don't really know what to say so I'll just toss an M'kay in your direction.
M'kay.
 
"It defys belief!"
 
Um, wow?
 
"Let us applaud the magic of the Germans if nothing else."
 
Um, yippee?
 
"Needing a mass grave the size of a football field, to dispose of bodies that would have to be around 10 deep."
 
Except that you are talking about multiple graves in multiple camps.  Archeological investigations at Chelmno, Sobibor and Belzec found the remnants of mass graves that went down at least 4 meters (give or take, about 15 feet). Any lower and probes found groundwater.  So, yes, this is completely doable.
 
"After a few years, earth is sunk and maybe...maybe some vegetation that does not look suspicious. C'mon, can't we applaud this trick that still baffles the mind?"
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 8, 2017 - 11:27pm
Let's applaud.  I'm going to see if my emojis work.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 8, 2017 - 11:27pm
Nope.  
Dannl Yoder Added Jul 8, 2017 - 11:35pm
@Jeffrey. ' this is doable'
That is my point, Jeff!
The greatest accomplishment in the history or war..even Ghengis ( SP) Khan's Badger mouth could not win the envy of what the Germans did.. And (drum roll) fight a war that often pitted the Germans at odds of 8 to 1. Think of it! Breathless! :) we can agree on this I know!
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 8, 2017 - 11:41pm
@Dannl Yoder:
"@Jeffrey. ' this is doable'
That is my point, Jeff!
The greatest accomplishment in the history or war..even Ghengis ( SP) Khan's Badger mouth could not win the envy of what the Germans did.. And (drum roll) fight a war that often pitted the Germans at odds of 8 to 1. Think of it! Breathless! :) we can agree on this I know!"
 
You know, for some reason I can get this emoji to work:
❄️
But I can't get my applaud emoji to work.
 
Hhhhhhhhmmmmm....
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 8, 2017 - 11:42pm
Nope, can't get the poop emoji to work.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 8, 2017 - 11:42pm
No on the basketball.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 8, 2017 - 11:43pm
Anyway, Dannl, I have no idea what point you are trying to make.
Dannl Yoder Added Jul 8, 2017 - 11:54pm
@Jeffrey. Can't get the " B.S." emoji to work? I am under devine protection Jeffrey.:)
Now instead of attempting insults, remember that I have supported you with positive comments. What are friends for? You are such a stickler for facts and "Proof" I gave you absolute proof of how meaningful German contribution to Genius. Affected the world
Oh, and you need not bother to read " survivor " stories. They lead one to actually see the mental impairment of the writers and euthanasia comes to mind. I do have a heart. I cry when I read how one little girl survived the camps because a magician put a spell on her so she did not need water for three years.
Then there is the one who survived being gassed several times.
I feel threatened though, did these Jews have more magic that what was previously known?
Witches?
I knew it. Dunk them! Dunk them!
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 9, 2017 - 10:51am
@Dannl Yoder:
"@Jeffrey. Can't get the " B.S." emoji to work? I am under devine protection Jeffrey.:)"
 
I have to admit, I found that amusing.

"Now instead of attempting insults, remember that I have supported you with positive comments."
 
Um, thank you?
 
"What are friends for? You are such a stickler for facts and "Proof" I gave you absolute proof of how meaningful German contribution to Genius."
 
That I am.  A stickler for facts, that is.
 
 
"Affected the world
Oh, and you need not bother to read " survivor " stories. They lead one to actually see the mental impairment of the writers"
 
Now, contemporary accounts are useful. I recently picked up a copy of the "Lodz Ghetto Chronicle," I suspect I will learn many new things.  Unfortunately I'm backed up on my reading so it will have to wait.
 
"and euthanasia comes to mind."
 
Well, the Nazis did try that one.  
 
"I do have a heart. I cry when I read how one little girl survived the camps because a magician put a spell on her so she did not need water for three years."
 
That's sweet.

"Then there is the one who survived being gassed several times."
 
I'm going to go with that person was never actually gassed.

"I feel threatened though, did these Jews have more magic that what was previously known?
Witches?
I knew it. Dunk them! Dunk them!"
 
M'kay.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 9, 2017 - 10:55am
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 9, 2017 - 10:56am
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 9, 2017 - 10:57am
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 9, 2017 - 10:58am
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 9, 2017 - 10:59am
Here is the German version:
 
http://www.ns-archiv.de/imt/ps3401-ps3600/3428-ps.php
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 9, 2017 - 11:01am
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jul 9, 2017 - 11:02am
All of those documents come from Germans, Dannl.  No need to worry about witches.
Dannl Yoder Added Jul 9, 2017 - 11:11am
@Jeffrey. Thank you. I am like you, behind in my reading. I have a friend ( had one) that sent me boxes of books to read. When he calls ( hasn't since our German history discussion) he asks if I have read them. No. I have a small 'smart phone' no P.C. the phone is difficult to read from, but ( and since I joined WB) I spend my free time on the WB site, reading.
I left word press, because I tire of the same articles. Then they get reposted and then reposted and then reposted. Soon, the people I was following were just reposting and posting YouTube links, which I cannot view.
So Thank you for your links, I will read them as they come up in line... And if they are not hard on my eyes.:)