Interference in American Elections, Russia or Israel?

Interference in American Elections, Russia or Israel?
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Last week the Senate Judiciary Committee postponed a meeting ostensibly convened to discuss the failure to enforce the Foreign Agents Registration Act of 1938 (FARA). Originally rescheduled for this week, the postponed meeting would have featured Donald Trump Jr. and former Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort testifying about their controversial Trump Tower meeting, but their subpoenas were canceled at the last minuteafter they arranged to turn over documents. The June 2016 meeting under investigation included Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya, lobbyist Rinat Akhmetshin, publicist Rob Goldstone, businessman Ike Kaveladze, and translator Anatoli Samochornov. Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner was also in attendance, apparently only briefly.


The Judiciary Committee hearing was originally set up to look at the possible Russian links of former journalist and head of the research firm Fusion GPS Glenn Simpson, who was behind the infamous Trump dossier that appeared in January. Yet in reality it is part of the broader effort of Russiagate, the heavily biased project to supposedly determine whether Moscow interfered in the 2016 election on behalf of the Donald Trump campaign.


FARA was created in the lead up to World War II to help monitor the activity of Italian, German and Japanese agent-lobbyists who were believed to be working hard in the U.S. to influence opinion as well as congressional votes in favor of their respective sponsoring nations. The intention was to force the “foreign agents” to register with the Department of the Treasury so they would have to identify their government sponsors and be required to reveal their sources of income.


FARA is not very rigorously enforced, which was one of the points that the Judiciary Committee was prepared to address in regards to Russia, but there can be consequences for those who ignore it. Former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn was recently compelled to register as an agent of Turkey after he received $530,000 in payments to support Ankara’s view regarding those it believed to be behind last year’s coup.


Ironically, the most powerful and effective foreign-government lobby in Washington is so dominant that it has been able to avoid registering for the past 55 years. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) was last confronted by FARA when its predecessor organization the American Zionist Council was pressured by John F. Kennedy’s Justice Department in 1962 and 1963. Kennedy’s death stopped that effort—and ended White House attempts to hold Israel accountable for the development of its secret nuclear weapons program (which depended on nuclear material removed illegally from the United States with the connivance of a company located in Pennsylvania called NUMEC).


AIPAC’s website declares that it is “America’s Pro-Israel Lobby,” so by its own admission it functions pretty clearly as Israel’s proxy. It spent $102 million in 2015, had 396 employees in 2013, and claims to have 100,000 members, many of whom are organized into state and city chapters. It also benefits from being a tax exempt 501(c)4 organization classified as promoting “international understanding.” Its annual Summit in Washington attracts more than 15,000 participants, including scores of congressmen and other senior government officials. It blankets Capitol Hill with its lobbyists and is a prolific source of position papers explaining Israel’s perception of what is taking place in the Middle East. Its easy access to the media and also to politicians in Washington is so widely accepted on Capitol Hill that it reportedly frequently drafts bills that Congress then goes on to propose.


No Washington lobby is benign. Lobbies exist to subvert the public interest. They promote particular agendas and are not intended to enhance the general well-being of the American public. Lobbyists would argue that they are in the information business, that they make lawmakers aware of facts that impact on pending legislation, but the reality is that every lobby is nevertheless driven by self-interest.


The power of the Israel Lobby and of AIPAC is not cost free for the American public. The current $3 billion plus that Israel, with a thriving first world economy, receives in military assistance is on top of the $130 billion that it has received since 1949. Protecting Israel in international organizations like the United Nations has sometimes marginalized the U.S. in such bodies and the lobby’s influence over American foreign policy has often been noted. In 2010 General David Petraeus stated that Israeli policies were putting American military personnel in the Middle East in danger. He quickly recanted, however.


Once upon a time AIPAC’s Steven Rosen boasted to an interviewer, “You see this napkin? In twenty-four hours, we could have the signatures of seventy senators on this napkin.” He meant that congressmen would sign on to anything if they thought it would please Israel. Recently the U.S. Congress has been working on bills that would criminalize individuals or groups that support a boycott of Israel. It would not be the first such legislation. The 2015 omnibus trade agreement with Europe included an amendmentmandating that nations engaging in anti-Israel boycotts, to include “Israeli controlled territories,” should be subject to retaliatory action by the U.S.


There are currently two bills constituting the Israel Anti-Boycott Act of 2017 (S.720 and H.R. 1697) being considered by the Senate and House that outdo any previous deference to Israeli interests. The Senate bill was introduced by Senator Ben Cardin, who also had a hand in the trade-legislation amendments protecting Israel. According to the Jewish Telegraph Agency, the bill was drafted with the assistance of AIPAC. The legislation, which would almost certainly be overturned as unconstitutional if it ever does in fact become law, is particularly dangerous, and goes well beyond any previous pro-Israeli legislation, essentially denying free speech when the subject is Israel.


The two versions of the bill that are moving through Congress have 238 sponsors and cosponsors in the House and 46 in the Senate. If you do your math, you will realize that those numbers already constitute a majority in the House and are only five short of one in the Senate, so passage of the bills is virtually assured. The bill’s sponsors include many congressmen who have in the past frequently spoken out in defense of free speech, with Senator Ted Cruz having said in 2014, for example, that “The First Amendment was enacted to protect unreasonable speech. I, for one, certainly don’t want our speech limited to speech that elected politicians in Washington think is reasonable.”


The movement that is particularly targeted by the bills is referred to as BDS, or Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions. It is a non-violent reaction to the Israeli military occupation of Palestinian land on the West Bank and the continued building of Jewish-only settlements. BDS has been targeted both by the Israeli government and by AIPAC. The AIPAC website, which describes the group’s lobbying agenda, includes the promotion of the Israel Anti-Boycott Act as a top priority.


The Israeli government and its American supporters particularly fear BDS because it has become quite popular, particularly on university campuses, where administrative steps have frequently been taken to suppress it. The denial of free speech on campus when it relates to Israel has sometimes been referred to as the “Palestinian exception.” Nevertheless, the message continues to resonate, due both to its non-violence its and human rights appeal. It challenges Israel’s arbitrary military rule over 3 million Palestinians on the West Bank who have onerous restrictions placed on nearly every aspect of their daily lives. And its underlying message is that Israel is a rogue state engaging in actions that are widely considered to be both illegal and immoral, which the Israeli government rightly sees as potentially delegitimizing.


Twenty-one state legislatures have already passed various laws confronting BDS, in many cases initiating economic penalties on organizations that boycott Israel or denying state funds to colleges and universities that allow BDS advocates to operate freely on campus. The pending federal legislation would go one step further by criminalizing any U.S. citizen “engaged in interstate or foreign commerce” who supports a boycott of Israel or who even goes about “requesting the furnishing of information” regarding it, with penalties enforced through amendments of two existing laws, the Export Administration Act of 1979 and the Export-Import Act of 1945, that include potential fines of between $250,000 and $1 million and up to 20 years in prison.


Interestingly, a number of churches, to include the Presbyterians, Mennonites, and United Church of Christ, have divested from companies participating in the occupation of the West Bank and could be subject to the punitive steps authorized by the legislation. And it also is interesting to note that the bills would not punish anyone who does not have a business relationship with Israel for reasons other than politics. The punishment comes solely when one states that he or she is not engaging in business with Israel due to objections regarding what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.


Daniel Larison has observed that even if one assumes that the legislation will face judicial hurdles and will never be enacted, it is nevertheless discouraging to consider that a clear majority of congressmen thinks it is perfectly acceptable to deny all Americans the right to free political expression in order to defend an internationally-acknowledged illegal occupation being carried out by a foreign country. That the occupation is illegal has even been acknowledged repeatedly by Washington, which contradicts its own policy with this legislation.


Those co-sponsoring the bills include Democrats, Republicans, progressives, and conservatives. Deference to Israeli interests is bipartisan and crosses ideological lines. Glenn Greenwald and Ryan Grim, writing at The Intercept,observe that “…the very mention of the word ‘Israel’ causes most members of both parties to quickly snap into line in a show of unanimity that would make the regime of North Korea blush with envy.”


Finally, the seemingly unrelenting pressure to make criticism of Israel illegal is particularly dangerous as it is international. Indeed, it is a global phenomenon. Wherever one goes—Western Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the United States—there is a well-organized and funded lobby ready, willing, and able to go to war to protect Israel. In France it is illegal to wear a t-shirt supporting BDS or to demonstrate in favor of it. Britain has introduced laws that includedefining criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism. In Canada, support of BDS has been regarded as a hate crime.


Will FARA registration of AIPAC as a foreign lobby fix all that? Of course not, but it would be a good first step. AIPAC would have to publicly acknowledge that it is acting on behalf of a foreign government and its sources of income would be subject to review. While the Congress is busy searching for imaginary Russian agents under FARA it just might spend some time also examining the pernicious influence of the unregistered and unrestrained Israel Lobby. 





Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Jul 30, 2017 - 5:59pm
Good, let them! I posted this article because of being pissed off at just that kind of attitude around here, and the lies about BDS and the lack of information regarding anti-BDS legislation. 
William Stockton Added Jul 30, 2017 - 6:42pm
If you are going to post an article from another source, word-for-word, at least post the reference.
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Jul 30, 2017 - 6:51pm
You are right William, I will amend the article to reflect the source material. 
The Burghal Hidage Added Jul 30, 2017 - 7:27pm
You make some valid points here about lobbyists. I think they should all be abolished but as long as there is money to be gained for any of the parties involved there will be lobbyists. A sad fact but nevertheless true.
Beyond that? Israel runs the world. The great international jewish conspiracy, right? I'm sorry, thats where I get off the bus. What is that in your avatars chalice? Kool-aid?
And you have the nerve to call those who challenge your drivel as fascists? You have a college degree? From where? A Cracker Jacks box?
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Jul 30, 2017 - 7:33pm
The BH writes "And you have the nerve to call those who challenge your drivel as fascists?" 
Wow, that's a first. You assume my reply to you before it was made! My "drivel" is simply to point out that Israel has actual influence in our elections, unlike Russia, regardless of the corporate mainstream media Russiagate narrative. And to illuminate the unfair bias towards Israel to the point that even peaceful protest against them is criminalized. Can you name another entity so shielded from criticism? 
Patrick Writes Added Jul 30, 2017 - 9:05pm
Sounds reasonable to me. 
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Jul 30, 2017 - 9:42pm
Thank you Patrick :-) 
Stone-Eater Added Jul 31, 2017 - 4:25am
Well-researched and objective. Now let's wait for the usual Antisemite !!! labeling.
Utpal Patel Added Jul 31, 2017 - 8:34am
The Russiagate narrative is perpetuated by the liberal media, corporate and otherwise. In other words, a blanket attack on all corporate media sources is totally unfounded. 
As for Russiagate, I’m still confused about what it is.  If it’s evidence of Russia changing the election results by hacking into ballot boxes, it’s totally false.  If it’s evidence of Russia hacking into the DNC email database and releasing/leaking damaging emails to Hillary Clinton, which may have caused some people to change their vote, it’s totally true. 
Lastly, I’ve seen people plagiarize before, what you did is the worst example of it I’ve ever seen. 
Dino Manalis Added Jul 31, 2017 - 9:09am
Foreign meddling is common and it should technically be prevented, but we shouldn't offend U.S. voters for exercising democracy.
John Minehan Added Jul 31, 2017 - 12:39pm
It's not like the US has clean hands, especially as to both the countries you discuss. 
We really helped Boris Yelsin in his first election and the Clinton Administration tilted sharply toward  Ehud Barack in 2000 and the Obama Administration tilted sharply against Benjamin Netanyahu in 2014.
The last went really badly, with Netanyahu beating the grandson of the 1st Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of The Republic of Ireland in an election held on . . . March 17th. 
Perhaps it is time for everyone to go back to their neutral corners.
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Jul 31, 2017 - 2:34pm
Patel, I was hoping to have a discussion on the material, nothing more, it is fully credited. So I don't know what your issue is. Furthermore you state in one paragraph that Russiagate is perpetrated by the liberal media, and in the very next that you have no idea what it is. Kind of all over the place and scatter brained IMO, maybe that is your issue overall. 
Dino, i agree. 
Stone-Eater it is getting to the point that people are missassociating anti-zionism with antisemitic, the article points this out and where it is even a crime. Beyond ridiculous to any person with an ounce of intelligence as antisemitic is about race, and Zionism is a political movement involving people of many different races. This is akin to calling someone who is anti-Republican a racist. Illogical and outrageous. 
John, I agree but although the Russiagate nonsense is pure fantasy with no substance, AIPAC interfere in America elections is not and really should be addressed. They need to be registered and put on the same level playing field as everyone else. They are much more than simply helping to uncover some truthful damaging emails, which amounts to essentially nothing, they directly influence our government through outright bribes and gifts. It should be much more closely monitored and controlled, at least that's my opinion. 
Stone-Eater Added Jul 31, 2017 - 2:39pm
Stone-Eater it is getting to the point that people are missassociating anti-zionism with antisemitic
I'm not surprised as long as the same people call social democracy "socialism" or even "communism"......
No idea but talk about it....
Bill Caciene Added Aug 1, 2017 - 8:39am
I’m as confused as Utpal regarding the meaning of Russiagate.  I thought it was the theory that Trump colluded with the Russians to undermine Hillary’s campaign. There is no evidence of that either.  However, if it wasn’t for Russian interference in the election, I do think Hillary wins.  At least in Israel’s case they attempt to influence our election (like many other entities) without hiding behind computer screens.     
wsucram15 Added Aug 1, 2017 - 3:30pm
Jenifer..I was going to tell you what an outstanding and articulate article this is, and then I saw Williams comment. 
This is that article, (source material is what you used to write an  article)  then you put your name on it.  There are other words for that.
It is a very good article, and a great opinion, why didnt you just find a couple of more articles as source materials and write your own op-ed.
It would have been very good, I am sure of that, this is a great topic choice.
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Aug 1, 2017 - 5:42pm
WSU I felt this article is to the point and worth of discussion regarding the AIPAC question. I'm more interested in debating with those who disagree with the simple idea of registering AIPAC than writing an additional article on the same subject. It seems there is in fact little or limited disagreement with this notion, which I found surprising. 
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Aug 1, 2017 - 5:46pm
Bill you are correct on your take on Russiagate. Although as bad as Hillary was as a candidate it's hard to tell whether or not she would have still lost had the truthful emails about her people rigging the primarys for her (something that many suspected before it was proven) or the various horrible things Hillary said about her own supporters. She was probably the worst candidate that the DNC ever ran, it would have been hard to lose to her. 
S.R. Morris Added Aug 2, 2017 - 7:39am
It's high time we define what it means to Interfere in an election and what it means to illegally interfere in an election. An Israeli friendly lobby is legal. A foreign country hacking into the denial database of the DNC has broken the law. We should also define anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is targeting Israel for doing nothing wrong.
Stone-Eater Added Aug 2, 2017 - 9:32am
Is a Russian friendly lobby legal ?
Stone-Eater Added Aug 2, 2017 - 9:33am
....or is that not allowed for "ideologic" reasons....or for the fact that Russia is a big power ?
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Aug 2, 2017 - 2:42pm
First off, it's only wild speculation and conspiracy theories that Russia (or anyone for that matter) hacked the DNC. The following debunks virtually all the claims of Russian interfering in the election: “What’s Left of Russiagate — Are We Down to the 1,000 Paid Trolls?”
Secondly supplying the American people with factual information about their candidates can hardly be called interfering unless an honest election and actual democracy is now forbidden in America. 
Finally antisemitism is racism against the semetic peoples, such as the people of Palestine by the mostly white European Israelis. Israel and Zionism are not races they are a nation and a political movement, opposition to either or both is obviously not any form of racism. 
Bill Kamps Added Aug 2, 2017 - 4:55pm
Jenifer, agreed.  Whether Russia hacked the DNC server or not, is an open question.  If that is all they did, that is very minor compared to the various ways the US has interfered, and manipulated elections around the world.  It hardly calls for retaliation, since that makes working with them more difficult on other matters.  While what Israel does is probably not illegal, it has a more substantive effect on legislation and political decisions in the Congress and US in general. This is never questioned of course. 
Tamara Wilhite Added Aug 2, 2017 - 7:02pm

CNN producer, caught on camera: Russia-Trump ‘mostly bulls—’

New O’Keefe video shows CNN producer calling Russia coverage ‘mostly bull----’
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Aug 2, 2017 - 7:04pm
Another thing that bothers me is people calling Russia "a hostile nation" this is highth of the absurd. When has Russia attacked or threatened the United States? Even if one buys the laughably zero evidence Russian Ukraine invasion nonsense, Ukraine is not a US partner nor a NATO member. Neither is Syria, Russia was asked by the sovereign Syrian government to intervene there, everyone else present is there Illegally, in violation of international law, that includes the United States. Back in Ukraine the United States backed the an illegal coup in 2014 which installed Neo-Nazis into power. Russia intervened to protect the Ukrainian people in the east (Including Jews) from Nazi war crimes. Unless the United States is institutionalized antisemitism I don't see how we can justify supporting a Nazi government against Russia.
The United States violated it's agreement to not push NATO any further eastward after the fall of the Berlin Wall. NATO now encircles Russia and threatens her with missiles and military exercises on Russia’s boarders. All of this is American/NATO aggression and hostility. Where is the so called "Russian hostility"? Russia continues to allow NASA to use Russian space facilities despite the unprovoked and dangerous Western hostilities, where would the United States space program be if Russia decided to respond in kind to American provocations? "Russian hostility", what a pathetic joke! Like the playground bully complaining about his victims faces "hostility" towards his fist. Does the West know no limits to their hypocrisy? 
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Aug 2, 2017 - 7:11pm
Thanks for your comments Bill and Tamera. Here's some more regarding Russiagate and CNN
"Russiagate Is Bullshit, And We Fucking Told You So”
CNN Commits Felonies, Challenges 4Chan To A Meme War”
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Aug 3, 2017 - 2:31am
Michael B is BANNED from posting on this article for multiple rules violations. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Aug 3, 2017 - 8:43am
You need to add Council on American–Islamic Relations (CAIR) is a Muslim civil rights[2][3][4] and advocacy group.[1] It is headquartered on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C., with regional offices nationwide.  Wikipedia
It had access to Obama's administration and still a strong influence on the media and Democratic Party.  It is defined my many as having ties to terrorist, a front organization.  The funds that they receive also have strings to funding terrorism.
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Aug 3, 2017 - 4:51pm
I would agree Thomas that any organization that influences elections be registered appropriately. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Aug 3, 2017 - 10:19pm
Jenifer your article is not about registering but of influence so stop being selective on who you choose to examine.  I believe that Cair has has more effect then Russia because they actually talked to Obama's administration.  The favoritism of government and the media toward Muslims compared to Christians is obvious but you do not want to discuss known influence.
We know that both parties talked to the Russians and that they that same Russian lawyer talked to the Democrats and Hillary's campaign.  So why are you not discussing the Democrats equally?   Bill Clinton gave speeches for ungodly sums of money.   Should we not investigate the reason why he was paid more that anyone else.   
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Aug 3, 2017 - 10:43pm
Relax Thomas, I have no love for CAIR. I have no problem discussing their influence in our elections. I certainly hold no favoritism of any Abrahamic religion, Muslims included. But it seems to me that the religious/political group with the most influential powers in Washington are the Zionist Jews currently, and it's been that way for a while now. 
The article does not single out either Republicans or Democrats, both are held accountable for taking money and gifts for their support. Personally I could go my entire life without even hearing the words Republican or Democrat and I would be a happier person for it. It would be hard for me to say which party I despise more, but with all the Russophobic warmongering I'm leaning towards hating the Democrats the most currently. So if you have a vendetta to settle about the Democratic Party, Obama, or the Clintons especially you are more than welcome to voice your thoughts about it here. You are, as they say, singing to the choir. 
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Aug 4, 2017 - 2:24am
Nikki Haley  a true ZioNazi fascist antisemite racist vermin piece of filth if there ever was. And another example of Trump’s atrocious cabinet picks.
The entire asskissing endlessly of Israel is proof positive that Christian fanatics run the United States foreign policy. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Aug 4, 2017 - 8:41am
John G. I consider any time you slander me a complement since one must consider the source.  Thank You. 
Jenifer, Judaism does have more influence AFTER THE ELECTION OF TRUMP, but you are talking about the election.  Democratic party had significant contact with CAIR and other Islamic countries.  Hillary was secretary of state when the Obama favored leaders favoring the return of Sharia law  over secular law.  Example is Egypt,   The whole region is more unstable and radicalized.  Turkey has moved away for democratic secular government towards Sharia which is the focus of CAIR.  Hillary supports Saudi Wahhabism. "The Wahhabi ideological structure in Saudi Arabia perceived this as an opportunity to fill a gap to gain extraordinary influence over an Islamic community in the West that itself had immense potential for political and social influence.  This operation, which was largely successful, had multiple goals.  First, to gain control over a significant group of Muslim believers. Second, to use the Muslim
community in the U.S. to influence U.S. government and media, in the formulation of policy and in perceptions, about Islam. This has included liaison meetings, sensitivity sessions and other public activities with high-level Administration officials, including the FBI Director, that we have seen since September 11th."
Riley Brown Added Aug 12, 2017 - 1:12pm
I'm going to be quite surprised if Russiangate actually goes anywhere, too many people have scoured all the evidence and not found any real evidence that Trump had any criminal connection related to the elections.
So far about the best they could do is point out instances of activities between people connected to Trump that have had contact people from Russia, and that's not surprising.  Given Trumps international holdings, I'm actually surprised they haven't found more evidence of him talking to Russians, I guess he didn't do business there.
Every major country tries to court important and influential people all the time, that's why they come here and we know they do that.  I'm sure if we examined their "connections" to influential Democrats we'd see similar efforts and I bet the same could be said in previous years.
All this tells me is that the news media can't find anything else, they are desperate and the gullible public is eating it up.
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Aug 16, 2017 - 6:25pm
Probably true Riley. For anyone interested in the facts about Russiagate I highly recommend the following read “The Russiagate Hoax — Cutting to the Chase”

Zachery d Taylor Added Oct 19, 2017 - 10:50am
AIPAC is far worse than Russia when it comes to manipulating elections but the six oligarchies controlling the media re even worse then them, although they often cater to them.
The rig elections by simply refusing to cover honest candidates that don't take bribes disguised as campaign contributions.
BTW were you on Open Salon? your avator & name looks familiar.
wsucram15 Added Oct 19, 2017 - 11:06am
Sorry Lady..its a good article and a valid and interesting article.
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Oct 19, 2017 - 4:33pm
Zachary yes I was on Open Salon, but it has been some time since I have been active there. I'm mostly around here, Medium, and Truthdig these days. Thanks for your comments. 
George N Romey Added Oct 20, 2017 - 8:27am
If Russia hacked the election to force a Trump win they didn’t get much for it.
Stone-Eater Added Oct 20, 2017 - 9:31am
Who the fuck cares now about that election ? Have the relations between the US and Russia improved ? No. Wasn't intended anyway, orange or not.....better anticipate on what might be ahead. NK or Iran ? Any bets ?
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Oct 20, 2017 - 6:09pm
No bets from me regarding what's next with Trump, he's too irrational to predict. That said, Clinton was very easy to predict, and her over the top war provocations against Russia made her the biggest threat between her and Trump by far. This does not mean that we are out of the woods regarding nuclear threats, but at least we aren't on a certain path to Armageddon. I only care about the election so far as morons keep up with the Russophobic insanity to put us back in the world war III crosshairs for no damn reason. It needs to end so we can move forward and at least deal with the present problems instead of endlessly being obsessed with fake Russian conspiracy theories that never amount to anything but threaten all life on Earth. There is indeed more than enough to be concerned about regarding the North Korea situation, although a small amount of diplomacy could go a long way to settle that if Trump just would see a little reason for once. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 21, 2017 - 11:52am
Lady S., Clinton would do what Obama did, show her hand.  Trump is not irrational but also he does not what to be predictable on tactics.  He wants to be predictable on the big picture.  I do not think Trump can now stop either one without Russia and China wanting that also.  The problem is that Russia and China see the missiles aimed at America and Europe.  They would think differently if the missiles were aimed that them. 
It is only in the interest of Russia and China to prevent North Korea and Iran if we use the tactic of a missile fired from either one is a missile fired from Russia and China. 
Either your are with us on preventing them from having nuclear ICM or your facilitating them.  That is the big picture Trump needs to set in concrete.  I hear that the North Korean missiles are similar to China's.  And who else would give them the technology.  Russia helped create North Korea in the first place.  
China and Russia will insure nothing happens until after the Summer Olympics in Soul South Korea.  The present tactics of China may go not farther then summer.
Iran is a threat in the long run for both China and Russia.  North Korea is the source of it's technology.  So Stopping North Korea is the tactic that will get the most bang for any effort.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 23, 2017 - 12:03am
Current DUHmerican interference in upcoming Russian elections as attested to by Haley is the height of DUHmerican hypocrisy. Haley, the Secretary of State, the Director of NED should all be punished in the same way they have called for punishment of Russia/Russians.
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Oct 23, 2017 - 1:47am
Sutrina, I could not disagree more. Russia and China are clearly not responsible for the actions of North Korea. That would be like saying America is responsible for the ISIL terrorists in Syria. Oops, that's not a good comparison because the USA IS responsible for the ISIL terrorists in Syria, unlike Russia and China which are not responsible for nukes in North Korea. America is also responsible for encircling Russia and China with nukes, so you are beyond out of line expecting Russia and or China to be America's bitch for North Korea. You are a warmonger hypocrite Supreme. Don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out dumbass. 

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