WHAT REALLY HAPPENED AT SODOM?

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Nazi Propaganda Minister Goebbels said if a lie is repeated often enough, it will be accepted as the truth. Christianity has said for so long Sodom was destroyed because of gay sex, that interpretation is not questioned? I question it?

 

And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do JUSTICE and JUDGMENT; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he has spoken of him.

And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

I will go down now, and SEE WHETHER they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and IF NOT, I WILL KNOW

Genesis 18

 

Now here is God saying, something is happening in Sodom. It´s not good. I don´t know exactly what it is, but I´ll check it out and then I´ll know for sure.

 

For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment;

God knows Abraham is a just man, wise in his judgment.

God still doesn´t know for sure what the problem is in Sodom, but Abraham, in his concern pressed the Lord.

That be far from you to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from you: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

And Abraham drew near, and said, Will you also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
What IF there are fifty righteous within the city: will you also destroy them and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are there?

 

Abraham is holding God´s feet to the fire in the manner of speaking, saying to God, is ¨collateral¨ damage acceptable to the Great God? Collateral damage is totally acceptable to the world powers these days.

Abraham is very bold with the Lord, pressing for a commitment.

And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom 50 righteous within the city, then  will spare all the place for their sakes.

And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
What if there shall lack 5 of the 50 righteous: will you destroy all the city for lack of 5? And he said, If I find there 45, I will not destroy it.
And he spoke to Him yet again, and said, What if there shall be 40 found there? And he said, I will not do it for 40’s sake.
And he said to Him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: What if there shall be 30 found there? And he said, I will not do it, if I find 30 there.
And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: What if there shall be 20 found there? And He said, I will not destroy it for 20’s sake.
And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: What if 10 shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for 10’s sake.

That’s good reasoning with God anyway you look at it, the stereotype for Jewish bargaining talents.

Come now, and let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If you be willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land:
But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken it.

Isaiah 1

 

Abraham got the word of the Lord, but this implies the angels have orders to go into town, mingle with the people, and look for at least ten righteous people.

 

What would you be doing if the internet didn´t exist? No TV. radio, telephone, newspapers, movie theaters, public transit, electricity or indoor plumbing?

No manufacturing plants or punch clocks and no clocks at all except sunrise and sunset? No air conditioning? Life would be so basic.

Just surviving one day at a time would be an accomplishment. No knowledge about what is happening in the world beyond the city walls except when strangers come to town.

The streets were small and narrow, teeming with people looking for something, amusement, entertainment, anything to do to pass the evening.

 

And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and you shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but WE WILL ABIDE IN THE STREET ALL NIGHT.

And he PRESSED UPON THEM GREATLY; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

Lot wanted to get the information from the strangers firsthand, and he bugged them and bugged them until they abandoned their instructions to stay in the streets all night to find 10 righteous people.

 

The people would recognize strangers, but the angels must have had an aura about them that caused the Sodomites to pause and whisper to one another as Lot led them through the city streets to his house. Lot wanted them all to himself.

 

As Lot feasted with the angels behind closed doors, word quickly spread through Sodom about these mysterious strangers. Curiosity was building. Where are they from? What news can they tell us about the larger world beyond the our city walls?

But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

ALL THE PEOPLE, OLD AND YOUNG FROM EVERY QUARTER. We have to assume women were included in ALL the people. Did they have a giant orgy in mind? Old, young, male and female? ALL the people?

The whole city was curious about the angel/strangers.

 

And they called to Lot, and said to him, Where are the men which came in to you this night? bring them out to us, that we may KNOW them.

 

I have no idea when and where it started, but some Christian somewhere read that somewhere else in the Bible, probably when Mary, the mother of Jesus, was visited by an angel in human form to tell her she will be the mother of God and she said, 'how can this be since I have not "known man" Not known man means to be a virgin, so "to know them" was extrapolated to mean having sex.

I just don’t see that connection there in reading the story by this one line: bring them out to us, that we may KNOW them, and building a case that God destroyed Sodom because of gay sex.

What is worse, is people believe it because it’s preached from some pulpits, and don’t read the story for themselves and think with some realistic imagination to make up their own mind, nor have the ability to see the Spirit of the letter in their own “personal” relationship with God, but go by what other people tell them to believe. In the final analysis, it is not between you and them, but between you and God.

 

And Lot went out at the door to them, and shut the door after him,

Bring them out to us that we may know them. This is the third ¨KNOW¨”in the story. Bring them out! We want to know them. We want to know what they know about the outside world?

A detail in this story is that Lot shut the door behind him so the people did not know what was happening behind the closed door, neither did the angels know what was happening outside.

And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

The first thing Lot tells the crowd is you can´t touch the men, but you can do what you want with my virgin daughters.  Is this righteous? Is Lot a loving, responsible parent? I don´t think so!

 

And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will NEEDS BE A JUDGE; now will we deal worse with you, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

 

The people were pissed off at Lot by his free offer of his daughters. I supposed some would think they must be gay or they would want Lot´s daughters, but that´s not what the story says.

ALL THE PEOPLE said, this fellow Lot is new in town and he would judge us. WE want to know what the strangers know. We don´t want your daughters. They had righteous indignation over what Lot said to them and were angry.

But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.

And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

 

After Lot fed them, the angels should have continued on their mission to spend the night in the streets to find 10 righteous people in the city, but they did not even come outside to see what the commotion was all about, and pulled Lot into the house.

 

Not only did the angels not do what they were supposed to do, they stayed with an unrighteous man who thought nothing of offering his daughters to a mob.

The rest of the story gets very bizarre.

And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that MOCKED unto his sons in law.

Lot had many defects of character it seems.

Verses 30 to 36 I cannot imagine. Lot got so drunk, he wasn't aware his daughters seduced him. He was so drunk, he impregnated his virgin daughters. Being that drunk, how could he get it up and not even know it?

Sodom was destroyed out of confusion.

Genesis 18

 

It is recorded Christ Jesus said the following words. It must be important to understand since it is referenced in so many places

But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.

                                Matthew10:15 & 11:24; Mark 6:11; Luke 10:12

 

 

LUNCH WITH THE POPE¨S AMBASSADOR

 

In 1985 I was extended the rare honour and recognition of being invited to lunch with The Apostolic Nuncio to Canada. That's the Pope's Ambassador.

Mindful of how Jesus talked to the establisment religious leaders, I was also mindful while he lives in me, I am not he. I am a sinner like the Pope, Presidents, Prime Ministers, CEOs and everyone else without exception.

 

Passing through the main Dining Hall with it’s seven foot fireplace and table seating at least fifty, The Nuncio, Charge D’Affairs, Secretary and I entered a beautifully decorated, intimate Dining room with a table for twelve. The dinnerware had a gold band around the edge with the Papal tiara crown in gold at the top. It was a formal setting. with the whitest linen tablecloth and flowers.

 

As the guest, the man for all seasons and reasons served me first and the Secretary last, and at that point I deliberately picked up the dessert fork at the top of the plate to eat the rigatoni meat sauce appetizer with the most wonderful aroma just to see what would happen?

The Pope’s Ambassador stopped him, and pointing to the fork on the side said, “Use that one.”

 

Replacing it, I said, “Excuse me, Your Excellency. It’s been over ten years since I left the business world where I negotiated multi-million dollar deals in Board Rooms and fine restaurants. I’ve lost touch with that sense of refinement.

To tell you the Truth, Your Excellency, since I’ve been walking with Jesus, most of the people I encounter can’t even afford to eat good food, let alone have matched dinnerware.” Jesus was brutal talking to religious leaders.

Being a Diplomat and recovering, The Nuncio asked, “What’s on the mind of youth?” I answered, “Sex, drugs, music, peace, love, friendship, money, security and work, not necessarily in that order of priority.

 

“Oh! It’s just like Sodom and Gomorrah was the reply. I replied, “Surely Your Excellency knows the Prophet Ezekiel said what the sin of Sodom was in Chapter 16:48. It was pride, fullness of bread and abundance of idleness was in her and her daughters and she was haughty. Neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. It had nothing to do with sexual activity.” On that, The Apostolic Nuncio shushed both hands at me saying, ¨Eat! Eat!¨

 

All the nominally Christian Societies Today, fit within the reasons for the destruction of Sodom as described by the Prophet Ezekiel

 

Sitting in the front seat of the limousine with the man for all seasons and reasons living in the gatehouse with his wife and driving him home after lunch, he told me his wife is a Cormier.

Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah.
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? says the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I  have no delight in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
When you come to appear before me, who has required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination to me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
And when you spread forth your hands, I will hide my eyes from you: yea, when you make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil;
Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Come now, and let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
If you be willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land:
But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken it.
How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
Your silver is become dross, your wine mixed with water:
Your princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loves gifts, and follows after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither does the cause of the widow come unto them.
Therefore says the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
And I will turn my hand upon you, and purely purge away your dross, and take away all your tin:

                                                                 Isaiah 1

 

Comments

Flying Junior Added Oct 3, 2017 - 2:57am
So the perverts were angels?  Didn't hear that in the Baptist church.
Thomas Napers Added Oct 3, 2017 - 3:43am
Because the Nazi propaganda minister says something it must be so or it must not be so?   Who's Sodom?
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 3, 2017 - 6:57am
Junior, please point out where you think you see I said the angels were perverts?
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 3, 2017 - 6:58am
Thomas please rephrase your comment. As it is it makes no sense.
Ari Silverstein Added Oct 3, 2017 - 9:12am
I follow Thomas' question.  The question essentially is why have you chosen to quote a Nazi propaganda minister?  Do you agree with Nazis?  I also don't know who Sodom is.  
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 3, 2017 - 9:41am
Sodom and Gomorrha.......
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 3, 2017 - 9:44am
...are not persons. They symbolize a "sinful" life and the punishment for it. Even I as atheist know that ;-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 3, 2017 - 9:45am
BTW: Sodom and Gomorrha were cities.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 3, 2017 - 11:21am
Thank you for educating Thomas and Ari SE
I wrote, "Nazi Propaganda Minister Goebbels said if a lie is repeated often enough, it will be accepted as the truth." We know that's true with the obsession with false news and propaganda these Days.
 
I have no idea where you could possibly get the idea just expressing a Truth, you could think, "Do you agree with Nazis?"
 
If anyone read the whole article, within all the words, these are the most revealing in the record as far as I'm concerned, "Abraham is holding God´s feet to the fire in the manner of speaking, saying to God, is ¨collateral¨ damage acceptable to the Great God?
Collateral damage is totally acceptable to the world powers waging War these days, destroying people and cities like Sodom was destroyed so long ago.
Mircea Negres Added Oct 3, 2017 - 1:23pm
Mr. Cormier (may I call you Ray?), I know quite a bit about the Bible and Christianity (eg 2 Kings: 19 and Isaiah: 37 are the same, word for word, but nobody's got an explanation why that is, especially the crazy, retreaded retard fundamentalist Christians I've met, who insisted the Bible was written by the Holy Spirit- yeah, kinda weird the Holy Spirit had to first rely on scribes copying on leather parchment, then on Guttenberg's press, but anyway...) but believe it or not, have never actually owned a Bible. In that regard, what usually happened is that I'd either get hold of a Bible belonging to somebody else and read it, or look up online verses. Being an old fashioned kind of dude, I prefer hard copy, that is a book in my hands, and while I have a downloaded copy of the Bible, have never bothered to read it beyond a few verses of Genesis because I just can't connect to its words and wisdom electronically. Anyhow, I thought your post on what might have happened at Sodom and Gomorrah was very good and quite a nice analysis of the biblical text as we have it- translation and transcription errors and all. Furthermore, it explained some things about the story I hadn't spotted before and looked at them in such a way that I was actually pulled into the tale, analysis (of history, news and Intelligence) being a hobby of mine. Nice job, sir, you got my thumbs up on this one and will hit the "Like" too while I'm at it.  
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 3, 2017 - 1:44pm
Thought apart:
 
Does anyone ever think that the "foreseeings" of any scriptures are simply a manual for some religiously fanatized, influencial and wealthy clans to MAKE them happen ?
Mircea Negres Added Oct 3, 2017 - 1:58pm
Stone-Eater, yes, I think so. A few years ago, the US government hired some of the top thriller writers in the country to come up with scenarios for how it may be hit in a catastrophic way. The government did it because the authors had a very good imagination while it was clear for a long time to the government that its scenario planners were too "boxed in" in terms of imagination. They needed loose brains unconstrained by bureaucracy and processes to come up with off the wall scenarios that were based on real world data. As such, it seems reasonable to me that it is entirely feasible that somewhere, some dude with sufficient resources will come across an idea that he'll be willing to make happen, and if it's a religiously inspired scenario, that'll make it both holy and wholly okay, because he/she is "carrying out God's will".  
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 3, 2017 - 2:05pm
Mircea
 
Ah-huh. And soon we will see a gigantic hologram of Jesus in the sky where he announces his arrival. What a boost that would be !
Mircea Negres Added Oct 3, 2017 - 2:09pm
One such scenario is that posited by French author Renee Abbecasis in a book whose name I can't recall, in which she posited the disciples of Jesus believed he was the Son of God so much that they conspired to betray him to the Romans in order to force God to intervene or trigger the Apocalypse in reprisal for his death. Thinking about it, and I never forgot that theory, if it's actually what happened, that would make it one of the earliest cases of attempted mundicide (murder of the world), which on a smaller scale parallels suicide bombing by Islamic fundamentalists, where the perpetrators enact what I like to call "The Samson Protocol" (the biblical figure Samson brought down the temple upon himself AND 3000 Philistines...) by taking as many people along with them as possible.  
opher goodwin Added Oct 3, 2017 - 3:08pm
I know what happened at Sodom - aliens set off a nuclear device!
You don't want to be reading too much into those outdated medieval texts of yours. They were written by men way back. Historical documents are interesting but not to be taken too seriously.
John G Added Oct 3, 2017 - 4:17pm
What really happened at Sodom?
Buggered if I know.
John G Added Oct 3, 2017 - 4:43pm
Oh and btw, Goebbels was a keen student and copier of US propaganda as practised by Bernays etc.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 3, 2017 - 5:34pm
Mircea, Ray is my name. I'm glad we have the same opinion or impression of what the printed words in the Sodom story say.
A fertile imagination is absolutely necessary in reading Bible stories. It was the 1st book I read cover to cover, when I learned how to read in Grade 1. It really is a good Book.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 3, 2017 - 5:46pm
S-E, as for this idea, "Does anyone ever think that the "fore seeings" of any scriptures are simply a manual for some religiously fantasized, influential and wealthy clans to MAKE them happen ?"
 
I think that's exactly what happened with the recreation of Israel from the Bible after an absence of some 2800 years. 
 
Israel is an individual God renamed from Jacob. Calling Israel Israel was a deliberate thought out decision designed by the Zionists in the late 1800s, to take in the Christians for their unquestioning support in it's Colonial enterprise.
Tubularsock Added Oct 5, 2017 - 1:59am
Ray, Tubularsock has always been a big fan of fairy tales. So Sodom and Gomorrah is a fun story. And even that dude god is so cool. Destroying everything in a loving way.
 
Gosh isn’t THAT something to believe in!
 
And the the Torah and Koran are right up there with the Bible as bull shit personified.
 
Tubularsock loves them all. The true comedy of the absurd. Prey on mother fuckers!
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 5, 2017 - 7:27am
Tubularsock, you must have missed what I wrote upstream, "If anyone read the whole article, within all the words, these are the most revealing in the record as far as I'm concerned, "Abraham is holding God´s feet to the fire in the manner of speaking, saying to God, is ¨collateral¨ damage acceptable to the Great God?
Collateral damage is totally acceptable to the world powers waging War these days, destroying people and cities like Sodom was destroyed so long ago.
Zachery d Taylor Added Oct 6, 2017 - 11:24am
Ray, these angels don't sound quite so good after accepting the hospitality of someone that offered his daughters to a mob without some kind of correction, whether you consider them "perverts" or not.
 
"Nazi Propaganda Minister Goebbels said if a lie is repeated often enough, it will be accepted as the truth."
 
This is a fundamental basic of propaganda regardless of the source, which ironically may have been attributed fulfilling it's own claim. It has been attributed to many people including Goebbels and most often Lenin; however a search done by researchers didn't turn up the original quote implying that they may never have said it. 
 
However the principle can be confirmed independently and modern media and advertisers use it all the time.
Tubularsock Added Oct 6, 2017 - 1:03pm
Ray, Tubularsock read up stream as well as down stream and absolutely understand the demented logic of God and the boys.
 
The “real” problem is that God as well as his “son” were illiterate and thus had to rely on humans to write all this down and in there is the flaw in the ointment.
 
Did “God” have feet?
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 6, 2017 - 2:18pm
Tubularsock, God has my feet, hands and eyes
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 6, 2017 - 3:49pm
Hey Ray,
Yea, the Old Testament was written by people that were for decades lost in the desert, starving, dehydrated and being attacked or chased by everyone and their neighbor. It's an interesting read for historical/entertainment purposes, but largely irrelevant if you're actually a Christian.
It's a Jewish book. If you're Christian, you should follow "the new and everlasting Covenant." Not the old fire-and-brimstone God that was actually the Hebrew manifestation of the pagan god El.
Jesus is the correction and the answer, the Old Testament was when God didn't understand us yet, and treated us like vermin...
God was angry, violent, jealous and vengeful before. But Jesus calmed the storm because he loves us.
Think about it.

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