A Ghetto By Any Other Name

Yesterday a member of our illustrious group defined a ghetto as "a place where white folks can't go, except to buy drugs or black women."

 

Now, this left me in stunned amazement.  My first reaction was to laugh, my second was to help the poor fellow out.  Alas, my efforts came to naught.  I don't think the author is much for "book larnin'", he immediately lost his mind and deleted my comments.  It might have been due to my delivery, I really need to work on that.

 

In any case, I thought I might flesh out the idea of what a "ghetto" is and was.  I'll post links below, I'm typing this out on a different device and find it easier to post links on my phone.

 

So, what is a ghetto?  The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines  a ghetto as the following:

1) a quarter of a city where Jews were formerly required to live,

2) a quarter of a city in which members of minority group live, especially because of social, legal or economic pressure, 

3) an isolated group, a situation that resembles a ghetto, especially in conferring inferior status or limiting opportunity.  The etymology is Italian, the root is gheto, meaning "foundry."  It traces back to the island where Venetians forced Jews to live, originally the island was a foundry for artillery.  This somewhat controversial, from what I've read there is disagreement over the root of the word.  In any case, the links I will leave will discuss all that.  The Venetians forced Jews to live there starting in 1516.  The word morphed into "ghetto" and became the standard name for areas where Jews were segregated throughout Europe.  Per Merriam-Webster the word became synonymous for any crowded urban area where ethnic or racial groups were confined by poverty or prejudice.

 

Ghettos spread throughout Western Europe during this period.  The situation was somewhat different in Eastern Europe, initially welcomed Jews became part of a persecuted minority but were never forced into ghettos.  The Russian, Austro-Hungarian and Prussian Empires restricted Jewish movement, primarily in the "Pale of Settlement" but no formal ghettos were formed.  A large percentage of Jews lived in "Shtetles," rural market towns that were primarily Jewish in nature.  Jews also lived in large cities but like all minorities at that time they lived in their own areas.  In any case, as states formed and Jews became emancipated citizens ghettos died out.  Napoleon started the process by eliminating ghettos whenever he conquered a city or state, I believe all ghettos in Europe where eliminated by 1850.

 

The term began to be used to describe ethnic enclaves in large cities where poverty and overcrowding were epidemic.  Just as an example, the Lower East Side (Jewish), East Harlem (Puerto Ricans), Five Points (Italians), etc., were all described as "ghettos" or "slums."  The Germans introduced ghettos in occupied Poland and the USSR to park Jews while they figured out what to do with them.  The Germans later emptied out those ghettos when they turned to killing their inhabitants.

 

The term "ghetto" also now refers to pop culture references.

 

So, no, the word ghetto doesn't mean "places where where white people can't go unless they want drugs or black women."

 

I'll add links later.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments

Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 3, 2017 - 12:51pm
Jeffrey
 
Ghetto is not a place, it's in someone's head LOL
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 3, 2017 - 12:55pm
BTW: Where I've been living in Cameroon might be seen as a ghetto. As only white guy in a town of 100'000. But I could move anywhere LOL
 
The only problem was at the beginning I was stared at all the time or had to answer questions so the 1 km walk from home to the post office took me two hours and approx. 3 visits in bars when people called me in ;-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 3, 2017 - 12:57pm
BTW2: I was NEVER attacked anywhere in the world at night. It's a matter of talking to people and building trust. Of course anything could happen, but I was lucky. in Africa I was and am never afraid, but in Europe or the US I would be more careful now.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 3, 2017 - 12:58pm
....except twice in Zurich, my home town, I forgot. Funny, eh ?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 1:00pm
Thanks, SEF.  BTW, apologies to anyone who started reading my article when I had to edit it, some of it got cut off when I published it.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 1:02pm
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 3, 2017 - 1:16pm
Actually a ghetto can be by choice of the inhabitants.  Thus immigrants that speak a different language will live in the same area because they share a culture and language.  And often only the bread winner and the children learn the new language.  If the bread winner is employed in the neighborhood he also does not have to learn the new language.  And as we have seen sometimes if enough immigrants are in an area only some have to learn the language if they work together.  
 
Religion it self and not driven by government is another reason by choice people form a ghetto.  A ghetto is a group living in an area because they share something. 
 
Our ghettos maybe difficult places for non-members to go but they are far from no go zones.  We have factories that have mixed employees within these zones.  The police are mixed and go into the zones regularly and with out significantly different procedures as non-ghetto areas.   People own small family owned businesses in these areas and go there regularly.  One only has to go back and play the video of the new cast presenting the owners of small businesses destroy or damaged in the Obama incited "hands up do not shoot" false scenario driven riots.  
 
Ghettos however, are often created by government creating barriers.  The inner city black ghettos were the result of housing policies of FDR in the depression that continued without much change until the civil right laws passed in the mid 1960 but they already built up and the now social issues presented by FDR, those I mentioned above have slowed the self destruction of them.  
 
"We have a myth today that the ghettos in metropolitan areas around the country are what the Supreme Court calls 'de-facto'
— just the accident of the fact that people have not enough income to move into middle class neighborhoods or because real
estate agents steered black and white families to different neighborhoods or because there was white flight," Rothstein
tells Fresh Air's Terry Gross.

"It was not the unintended effect of benign policies," he says. "It was an explicit, racially purposeful policy that was pursued at
all levels of government, and that's the reason we have these ghettos today and we are reaping the fruits of those policies."  http://www.npr.org/2015/05/14/406699264/historian-says-dont-sanitize-how-our-government-created-the-ghettos
Dino Manalis Added Oct 3, 2017 - 1:47pm
Ghettos and slums should be connected to urban enterprise zones with strong law enforcement to give people safety and jobs!
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 3, 2017 - 1:54pm
"Ghettos" exist due to the non-acceptance of the "other" in the first place.
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Oct 3, 2017 - 2:09pm
Stone-Eater writes "Ghettos" exist due to the non-acceptance of the "other" in the first place.
True, but we really can't expect low life scum like the kind that Jeffrey wrote this article referring to, to accept anyone even remotely different from themselves. Too damn stupid and willfully ignorant to learn much about anything different from their own inbred selves. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 2:16pm
@Thomas Sutrina:
"Actually a ghetto can be by choice of the inhabitants. Thus immigrants that speak a different language will live in the same area because they share a culture and language. And often only the bread winner and the children learn the new language. If the bread winner is employed in the neighborhood he also does not have to learn the new language. And as we have seen sometimes if enough immigrants are in an area only some have to learn the language if they work together."
 
Perhaps I should have made that clearer, you are right.  Immigrants were hardly forced into these areas, first generation immigrants often lived together for protection in areas they could afford and where people spoke their language.  Later generations left these areas as they assimilated into society (looking at US history).

"Religion it self and not driven by government is another reason by choice people form a ghetto. A ghetto is a group living in an area because they share something."
 
Right.  

"Our ghettos maybe difficult places for non-members to go but they are far from no go zones. We have factories that have mixed employees within these zones. The police are mixed and go into the zones regularly and with out significantly different procedures as non-ghetto areas. People own small family owned businesses in these areas and go there regularly."
 
Again, right.  There is information I left out, I should have made all of this clearer.  
 
"One only has to go back and play the video of the new cast presenting the owners of small businesses destroy or damaged in the Obama incited "hands up do not shoot" false scenario driven riots.""
 
Obama incited these riots?  You mean cops killing black people and not getting punished for it had nothing to do with it?  Wow, what a revelation!!!!!
 
Now, I'm not saying that rioting is justified under these circumstances.  What I am saying is anger under these circumstances is justified.
 
Not all of the killings that occurred warranted punishment of some kind but some did.  BTW, I am pro-law enforcement, I've worked with the police and I empathize with what they go through.  But, police officers that execute citizens of any color no longer deserve protection for their actions.
 
The rest of what you said I agree with, I'm not going to answer the rest.
 
Thomas, if you want to add links click the icon that looks like a paper clip at the top of box, next to "U" and drop your link there.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 3, 2017 - 2:17pm
Jen
 
What's a "low life scum" ?
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Oct 3, 2017 - 2:42pm
Stone-Eater, it's any and all willfully ignorant racists as I see it. 
Simply Jews Added Oct 3, 2017 - 2:45pm
SEF,
 
Should you even ask? But I am sure that the Lady Emetic will be happy to tell you.
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Oct 3, 2017 - 2:50pm
Here is a good example SEF above ^
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 3:00pm
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Oct 3, 2017 - 3:11pm
Yes Jeff, the slimeball author of that racist article is who I was referring to as well. But he is far from the only racist around here. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 3:12pm
Very true.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 3, 2017 - 3:12pm
SJ
 
I'm not sure if I understand the word "emetic" correctly. Would you mind explaining to an ignorant foreigner ? :-)
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 3:25pm
BTW, just to clarify, there is probably a disagreement over who LS and I consider racist but "White Trash" is one we agree on.  Same with Billy Roper.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 3, 2017 - 3:27pm
Micheal Brown as the black witnesses testified, charged the officer.  "Hands up do not shoot" is a lie still being used today to justify BLM.
 
  "Obama incited these riots?  You mean cops killing black people and not getting punished for it had nothing to do with it?  Wow, what a revelation!!!!!" 
 
Cops do get charged with killing black people.  I was in Charlotte NC.  when a cop was charged and I am sure convicted.  The Chicago cop is going to get convicted.    
 
The problem is that the culture teaches black men like the NFL player in Nevada not to follow the commands of the police of stopping and not reaching for things.  The police want to go home to there families too.  They shoot first because to shoot second may mean they will not be going home.  It is in every policy of police around the world.
 
So the black man that reached for his wallet could have been reaching for a gun.  The police do not wait to find out.   
 
The toy gun without the painted tip that the boy was waving around got shot because plastic or steel look the same from 10 to 30 feet away.  The police do not wait to find out.  Sorry but that as I said is the historic way police for decades have done since they the majority of the dead police men and women are shot by actions like these.  
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 3, 2017 - 3:35pm
Hey Jeff,
You shouldn't be swayed by people that are ignorant. They speak their own language, and have their own following. If you try to confront them with something rational, they'll beat the crap out of you with their ignorance. You'll feel like a fool, when it's really them that's completely wrong...
Even A Broken Clock Added Oct 3, 2017 - 3:44pm
Thomas - you are normally well-reasoned even if I don't agree with you. But on the issue of police shootings, and the culture of ignoring police commands, you are far off. And it is not just white officers / black miscreants in these situations. Think about the Minnesota situation where the woman from Australia who phoned in the call about a woman screaming was shot through the door by a trigger-happy policeman who had not given any time at all for someone to follow a command. Shoot first, command second.
 
No, ask a black family whether they have had the "talk" with their children - about how you must show complete deference to an officer, not make any sudden moves, in order to be allowed to live after a traffic stop. There are definitely cases where the police are attacked and are justified in using deadly force. But in the case of the man running away after a broken taillight stop in North Charleston? Was he a threat to the officer? Or just someone who did something very dumb and paid for it with his life?
 
The Cleveland incident was one where incomplete information led to the tragedy. The person who called in to 911 about the child with the plastic gun said that she thought it was a toy, but that information did not get transmitted to the responding officers. Then you saw the tape - they never gave the child time to do anything. They shot within two seconds of exiting their vehicle.
 
This discussion has deviated considerably from its original intent of covering the etymology of ghetto.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 3, 2017 - 3:55pm
I never said police do not shoot people that should not be shot.  What I am saying is that non-corrupt police departments hold the policeman responsible and they will face a trial.  Their are departments of police that are corrupt.  Chicago is one such department.  But the vast majority are not corrupt.  They as any organization do not want to find themselves in a situation where they charge one of there officers so you will get some level of back peddling, but this is true for all human organizations.  That is not corruption it is not believing we can screw up that bad.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 4:16pm
@Thomas Sutrina:
"Micheal Brown as the black witnesses testified, charged the officer. "
 
Did you miss the part where I said that many of the killings did not justify punishment? If a cop shoots someone while protecting the public, his/her life and other police officers I have no issue with that. That goes without saying.
 
"Hands up do not shoot" is a lie still being used today to justify BLM."
 
Black lives do matter. I agree with the concept, I do not agree with much of the execution.
I think in this day and age any young black man should be freaked out by getting stopped by a white cop.
 
"Obama incited these riots? You mean cops killing black people and not getting punished for it had nothing to do with it? Wow, what a revelation!!!!!"
"Cops do get charged with killing black people."
 
Charged, not always convicted. But, that's what a trial is for.
 
"I was in Charlotte NC. when a cop was charged and I am sure convicted. The Chicago cop is going to get convicted."
 
Good.
 
"The problem is that the culture teaches black men like the NFL player in Nevada not to follow the commands of the police of stopping and not reaching for things."
 
No, the problem is that there is a perception among black people, especially young black men, that their risk of getting shot is much higher than the regular populace. Now, whether or not that is justified can go both ways but many young men feel the need to turn on Facebook Live to record their experiences. I've watched those videos and they are nauseating to watch. You can feel their fear, especially when they get pulled over for a routine traffic stop and the cop approaches their car with weapons drawn. One man got stopped for wearing headphones while driving, two cop cars showed up and they wanted to search his fucking car because he was wearing headphones. A simple traffic stop turned into him recording the whole thing, live, because he couldn't figure why two cop cars showed up to search his car for a traffic stop. He refused to allow them to search, BTW, because that is his right as a citizen to refuse that search. Two more cop cars showed up, luckily for him one of them was a sergeant with a great deal of common sense who settled the whole thing down, issued a ticket and sent him on his way.
That's the kind of horse shit that happens to minorities every day. Luckily for us we're white, right, Thomas?
 
"The police want to go home to there families too."
 
Sure, I get that.
 
"They shoot first because to shoot second may mean they will not be going home."
 
No, Thomas, what that shows is a lack of discipline. A cop without discipline is a thug with a gun.
The job of the police is to protect and serve, Thomas. That's what they signed up to do. That means they agreed to put their lives on the line, not shoot an innocent (or guilty) person first.
We are a nation of laws, Thomas, no matter how inconvenient that is.
 
"It is in every policy of police around the world."
 
No, because not every police force in the world operates the way the US police does. Many of them are thugs with guns, Thomas and guilt or innocence means nothing.
 
"So the black man that reached for his wallet could have been reaching for a gun. The police do not wait to find out."
 
Holy crap, so, the man attempting to get his identification out deserves a bullet on the off chance he might produce a gun???????????
No, that is a presumption of guilt, that is not a right that the police have to decide. What I would say in that circumstance is that the police officer is dead wrong and does not deserve the badge or the weapon.
Laws, Thomas. Presumption of innocence, remember? That's a right that we all have, regardless of the color of one's skin.
 
"The toy gun without the painted tip that the boy was waving around got shot because plastic or steel look the same from 10 to 30 feet away. The police do not wait to find out."
 
Now you are moving the goalposts, Thomas. There is a vast difference between some dude at a traffic stop and some kid waving a gun around. I watched a video where a black kid got shot for waving a gun around. The cops begged him to drop it and he wouldn't so he got shot. It turns out it was a plastic gun. Well, his parents failed him on that one, not the police. There was liberal uproar (keep in mind I'm a liberal) but I completely disagreed. Why? Because the police didn't know, they gave him a chance and he was a risk to the public and the police facing him. It turns out the kid was very troubled but that's not an excuse.
 
"Sorry but that as I said is the historic way police for decades"
&nbs
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 4:17pm
Cont....
So, only black people killed police officers?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 4:21pm
To all:
 
I don't mind have this discussion and it doesn't bother me if this wandered off course from my original intent.
Lady Sekhmetnakt Added Oct 3, 2017 - 4:36pm
We had a goon thug cop here in Cincinnati that shot an unarmed black man at a routine traffic stop. The DA said it was the most depraved and inexcusable thing he had ever seen. The body cam confirmed that the victim never reached for anything, he just attempted to drive off when the officer became threatening. The psychopath cop claimed he "feared for his life" = automatic dismissed case 100% of the time. So the goon thug walked, charges dropped. Case closed. Is that "justice"? 
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 3, 2017 - 4:40pm
Jeffrey I heard this last week, ""Hands up do not shoot" stated as a fact of what happens to blacks by the police.    It is used to justify protests against police by the pundits for knee of the NFL."  I agree, "the problem is that there is a perception among black people, especially young black men, that their risk of getting shot is much higher than the regular populace,"  but until the pundits stop pushing the lies then the black young men will continue to believe lies."  We both know that whites are shot more often then blacks as a percentage.  
 
This is true and he was told not to do by the police, "Holy crap, so, the man attempting to get his identification out deserves a bullet on the off chance he might produce a gun???????????"  The police may tell a person to do something they may not understand and think is stupid, but you think that when the police are pointing a gun at you, maybe you should follow the directions and not do anything that the,police think is questionable.  The gun is pointed at them because the police at that point think they may be threatened by force, a gun, could appear.  Justified or not in the persons mind is not important at the moment.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 4:49pm
No, that is not justice.  This is why things have gotten to this point.
John G Added Oct 3, 2017 - 6:06pm
Gaza.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 6:41pm
Turtles.
John G Added Oct 3, 2017 - 7:00pm
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 7:28pm
I don't know about everyone else but I enjoy John taking every opportunity to bash Israel on completely unrelated posts.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 3, 2017 - 8:02pm
Jeffrey simple fact police get shot by people in domestic disputes. stopping cars for traffic violations,  ambushed, etc.   Most cases the gun is still in the holster.  So they assume any situation could put them on the list of dead policemen.   They want to go home to their family. 
 
They consider black young men more dangerous then most.  Three times the number of crimes occur in the black community and young black men with in the community commit the most crimes.   Murder is about the same proportion of crimes.  So Jeffrey the fact actually do not match the fact that more white are shot by police then blacks.  And that black police have a higher percentage then white police.  Just the facts Jeffrey.
John G Added Oct 3, 2017 - 8:03pm
Right, because Gaza isn't a ghetto in Kelly world. Obtuse arse.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 3, 2017 - 8:51pm
Jeffery, glad you followed through with this post even though it's unlikely white trash will see it.
 
I do agree with John. Gaza is an Israeli controlled Ghetto like the Warsaw Ghetto was in a different place and Time.
John G Added Oct 3, 2017 - 8:59pm
Amusing that the libberdeee!!!!! yappers are the same people as tell us that the cops are right to shoot people for not obeying their orders. Whether or not those orders are right or legal.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 9:02pm
I'd feel more inclined to listen to what John says if he'd write his own article about it instead of cluttering up my post.
 
I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians.  I oppose Israeli policies but John's problem is that he can't accept that.  I recognize the problems but John seems to think that if you don't accept his point of view you are a racist, hasbara troll.
wsucram15 Added Oct 3, 2017 - 9:31pm
OMG..ghetto.  Jeffrey, what a topic.  I dont think Ghetto is determined by culture. (laughs)
It is definitely determined by the select few as to who can sell what properties to whom. This is how the "race riots' In Baltimore began and what the Civil rights movement was initially about.  Housing outside the "ghetto", the fair housing act.
But even now, people segregate those they dont like from those that they do.   They do it in schools, work and now they have the luxury of social media in order to torture those that are different.
 
So anything that is an isolated group "could be" a ghetto.  The Jews..who were tortured throughout history, The Blacks..The Indians.. the Irish...wow anyone in early NYC.  We have stuff like that here, but they are called by their names..Little Italy, Little Mexico..etc..
The Ghettos are everywhere.
Saint George Added Oct 3, 2017 - 9:36pm
Ilan Pappe has been debunked numerous times, even by his former "New Historian" colleague, Benny Morris. In short, nothing Pappe writes can be trusted to be accurate.
John G Added Oct 3, 2017 - 9:38pm
I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. 
But you don't want to talk about Gaza in a post about ghettoes. 
I believe you. 
No, really I do.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 10:27pm
@John:
"I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians.
But you don't want to talk about Gaza in a post about ghettoes.
I believe you.
No, really I do."
 
Good, I'm a believable fellow.  I'm also very charming.
John G Added Oct 3, 2017 - 11:14pm
No evidence of that.
Simply Jews Added Oct 4, 2017 - 1:24am
SEF,
 
"I'm not sure if I understand the word "emetic" correctly."
These autocorrects... when you want to say "eclectic" and the result is so surprising :-)
 
"Would you mind explaining to an ignorant foreigner ? :-)"
Yeah, sure. Tee hee...
John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 1:54am
Hasbara 101. State that evidence/messenger has been 'debunked numerous times'.
Zionists are sooooo predictable.
Saint George Added Oct 4, 2017 - 4:54am
to accept anyone even remotely different from themselves. Too damn stupid and willfully ignorant to learn much about anything different from their own inbred selves.
 
Not open-minded, curious, and tolerant like you, I suppose.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 4, 2017 - 5:22am
SJ
 
Well.......there's quite a differene between emetic and eclectic LOL
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 4, 2017 - 5:24am
I do agree with John. Gaza is an Israeli controlled Ghetto like the Warsaw Ghetto was in a different place and Time.
 
I guess that's about as correct as it can be.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 4, 2017 - 7:46am
To John and Ray:
 
Is Israel the only country enforcing some sort of blockade on the Gaza Strip?
wsucram15 Added Oct 4, 2017 - 8:02am
SEF..here, its due to govt. funding in specific areas. Some get more, some get less. Its how it is. Its been a battle for decades, looks like it will continue. 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 4, 2017 - 8:07am
Jeanne
 
Gaza is a huge prison. No doubt about that. And it's strategically important for Israel. If they could, they'd certainly kick all the Palestinians out and incorporate it into Israel fully.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 4, 2017 - 8:10am
@SEF, John and Ray:
Is Israel the only country currently enforcing a blockade of the Gaza Strip?
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 4, 2017 - 8:16am
Jeffrey
 
Egypt also controls a minor part in the South. And as you might know, Egypt is a friend of the West - therefore not too far away from Israel concerning international relations. You might throw in that Hamas (Shiites)/Iran/Russia are related. Of course it's geostrategy. Only that the West is 10x stronger in terms of the military and economics than that group.
 
And I doubt that people in Gaza care about chess games.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 4, 2017 - 8:30am
Correction: I meant Hezbollah, not Hamas.
 
BTW: Egypt would not be interested to open the Gaza border. And feed all those people ? Egypt is not Uganda. And then the Sinai comes in the game. Which ones will fight for or against what when they settle there ? I guess we can't really see behind the curtain.
 
Hamas and Egypt (Saudi) are mostly on the same course and Hezbollah is tied to Iran.
 
I guess neither Israel nor Egypt like to burn their fingers. Although I tend to the POV that for Israel the Sunnis are more comfortable -> Saudi Arabia -> USA.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 4, 2017 - 8:36am
We know Israeli's ally, that beacon of Democracy called Saudi Arabia, has placed economic sanctions against Qatar for their friendly relations with Iran and Gaza
 
See ? It fits.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 4, 2017 - 8:39am
Jeffery, Israel's only friends in the Middle East are the most brutal of Dictatorships, who love the technology Israel has developed to keep the Palestinians quiet and under control, to use on their own societies
 
When Hamas won the free and fair Palestinian election in 2006, Abbas, at the urging of Israel-US, dissolved the Palestinian Legislature, and has governed as a proxy Israeli-US Dictator/Po;iceman for the last 10 years. He cut off electrical power to Gaza to 4 hours a Day to make the people's lives more miserable.
The US-Israel dare not allow another Palestinian election because Hamas would win again. Whenever Fatah and Hamas meet to discuss Palestinian Unity, Netanyahu goes ballistic. It's easier to keep Palestinians under control when they're divided.
 
Yes, at the urging of Israel, Egypt has also closed the crossing at Rafah, opening it only occasionally.
We know Israeli's ally, that beacon of Democracy called Saudi Arabia, has placed economic sanctions against Qatar for their friendly relations with Iran and Gaza. At whose insistence?
Doesn't take much intelligence to figure that out.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 4, 2017 - 8:47am
@SEF:
The Egyptians could open their border quite easily to let aid come through.  Which they have done.  Just like Israel has.
 
SEF, the reason why the Egyptians closed that border is they suffered terrorist attacks out of the Gaza Strip, just like Israel has.  So, of Egypt has the right to protect themselves, why does wanting to protect themselves make Israel Ghetto masters and racist scum?
 
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 4, 2017 - 9:11am
@Ray:
So, Hamas is completely innocent in all of this, like little lambs?
 
Look, I'm going to repeat this so that we all understand where I am coming from:
 
I disagree with many Israeli policies in regards to Palestinians and the Gaza Strip.  Frankly if it was up to me....which it is not......I would link any aid to Israel based on their compliance with UN resolutions regarding these issues.  I fully support a two-state solution for the Palestinians.  I've read up on the conditions in the Gaza Strip and I share your outrage.
 
But, to pretend Israel doesn't have legitimate security concerns in the region is naive.  Both Israel and Egypt suffered from terrorist attacks originating out of the Gaza Strip for years.  Israel is also an ally, has been since it's inception, so naturally this factors in as well.  
 
I actually supported Obama's attempts to show a tougher attitude towards the Israelis but Israel remains popular amongst the Right-Wing nutjob evangelicals and their proxies.  So, right now we are in a stalemate over the situation.  Both sides need to show a willingness to come to the table and negotiate.  Period.
Simply Jews Added Oct 4, 2017 - 9:22am
@JK,
 
I agree with most of what you just said. 
 
The current showstoppers are (not necessarily in the order of importance):
 
1. The lack of two balls-equipped leaders on both sides - unlike it was with Sadat - Begin and Rabin - king Hussein.
2. The Hamas' widely declared and popular goal: "Palestine from the river to the sea".
3. The accumulated mutual distrust.
 
As for pressure: nope, it just wouldn't work. Never did.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 4, 2017 - 9:40am
Jeffrey
 
So, of Egypt has the right to protect themselves, why does wanting to protect themselves make Israel Ghetto masters and racist scum?
 
The problem is that a terrorist is not a terrorist in the traditional sense anymore. It's a brainwashed and fanatized fighter for foreign interests he doesn't even figure. Except their leaders, but they mostly sit quietly outside of that sphere....
 
The problem was the artificial creation of Israel by the West. The same would happen anywhere where foreign forces go somewhere and create a country with borders out of nothing someplace where people already live and use thousands of years old scriptures to justify it.
 
Africa was created the same way.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 4, 2017 - 9:43am
BTW: I mean African countries. You can see that clearly on ALL countries from Ivory Coast to Kenya. North = Islam, South = Christian.
 
Hail religion. It's so a fucking useful division tool !
wsucram15 Added Oct 4, 2017 - 10:27am
I think that is horrible. SEF, a prison of religion and culture by anyone is unacceptable.    You know how I feel about these things.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 4, 2017 - 12:19pm
How can I make it any plainer? It's called War that has been going on since 1948, and in any War, each side sees the other as the terrorist. 
Only the Israeli side has the money and means to cast the other side as terrorists, and not Freedom Fighters, fighting a Colonial Invasion.
 
The BS Netanyahu spouts is sickening. He claims to stand for Peace Negotiations without pre-conditions, as he builds more and more immovable pre-conditions on the ground as a fait accomplis, in addition to all the other pre-conditions before he will start GOOD FAITH Peace Negotiations.
 
In reality, Netanyahu is demanding complete and total Palestinian surrender to Jewish Sovereignty over all Palestinian territory.
Naturally, Netanyahu is gone ballistic again, since Fatah and Hamas are talking Unity.
That could put an end to Israel's Divide and Conquer policies.
Simply Jews Added Oct 4, 2017 - 12:26pm
"Only the Israeli side has the money and means to cast the other side as terrorists, and not Freedom Fighters, fighting a Colonial Invasion."
 
Don't you blush a little, writing crap like this, RJC? And the petrodollars that go into the pro-Palestinian propaganda count for nothing? And the combined might of Muslim countries in UN counts for nothing? 
 
No matter what kind of motormouth Netanyahu is, it's like comparing a mouse with an elephant. 
 
Do blush a bit, please.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 4, 2017 - 12:44pm
Not much pro-propaganda over here in the MSM.
The only Nations in the Middle East supporting Gaza were the Qatar and Iran, and there's no doubt Trump and Saudi Arabia, with the encouragement of Israel, are going after them.
 
Did you not read reports Netanyahu wanted the IDF to attack Iran a few years ago and they wouldn't?
How Israel's military stopped Netanyahu attacking Iran
When I watched Trump threatening Iran at the UN, and it switched to Netanyahu, I sensed by the smirk on his face he was thinking, 'Good. He's repeating everything I told him to say in our meeting yesterday.'
Simply Jews Added Oct 4, 2017 - 1:10pm
"Not much pro-propaganda over here in the MSM."
 
Hah. So far I didn't see you having a slightest problem with finding what you need on the 'net. Like that latest example of unrelated story. Do you want a list of English language publications specializing on anti-Israeli drivel and financed by petrodollars... nah, I bet you have it handy.
 
As far as your sudden switch of the subject: arguing a point with you is not totally unlike trying to catch an eel when your hands are oiled. Stay on your message, please.
 
Have you blushed a bit, by the way, as was appropriate?
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 4, 2017 - 1:38pm
No blushing at all, as you seem to be flustered getting red in the face. lol!
 
I expressed my plain view of the situation as I've observed the Israeli-Palestinian conflict unfolding over decades. It's my honest opinion with no subterfuge.
 
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
 
Obviously we don't see exactly eye to eye on everything, Simply, I will treat you and everyone who doesn't see it exactly as I do with respect.
 
There is no switch of subject. This article is about Ghettos, and Gaza is one controlled by Jews, even if some don't want to see it or even discuss it. Too bad!
Simply Jews Added Oct 4, 2017 - 1:55pm
Interesting. I have addressed one point only in your comment:
 
"Only the Israeli side has the money and means to cast the other side as terrorists, and not Freedom Fighters, fighting a Colonial Invasion."
 
You have tried to answer it, poorly, I (and you, obviously, too) think and then, to recover, immediately went to a totally unrelated intention of Bibi to make war on Iran.  
 
But I agree on politeness rule too, so here we, at least, in accord.
Sorry, I have to disconnect for today. Tonight, in fact.
John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 3:06pm
Aaaaaaand Kelly proves once and for all that he is, at the very least, an Israeli apologist, in attempting to paint the Palestinians as equally powerful and blameworthy.
The Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed from most of their land and live under a brutal military occupation.
There is no equality of power or guilt.
Gaza is a ghetto under siege by the USA, Israel AND the puppet, murderous dictator of Egypt.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 4, 2017 - 3:47pm
Ray C. and others  I get the impression that you must go to bed before the new is broadcast and do not read anything.  Since you have no idea what the United Nations has been doing in the last 40 years.  Have no idea what the US and European media has been saying.  Ray show me any proof that the money of Israel has done to change the message of either? 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 4, 2017 - 4:19pm
Jeffrey
 
the reason why the Egyptians closed that border is they suffered terrorist attacks out of the Gaza Strip, just like Israel has.
 
Sorry, but that "terrorist" argument doesn't work with me anymore. Only a margin of those so-called terrorists work for their own cause. The vast majority are comparable to mercenaries who are paid for a job serving other interests. From the Maidan to Brussels, London or Paris.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 4, 2017 - 4:24pm
BTW: Do you think that countries like the big Egypt and the heavily armed Israel are afraid of those small-scaled attacks from some Palestinian kids ? Not at all. They NEED them to get their interests trough on an international audience, and the kids firing those rockets are either paid or - really think that they're disadvantaged. Which they are, in fact.
John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 4:26pm
Ray C. and others  I get the impression that you must go to bed before the new is broadcast and do not read anything.  
And clearly you uncritically believe what the corporate media tells you about the zionist project.
It is you that is ignorant of the facts.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 4, 2017 - 4:27pm
NetanYahoo could have put an end on that easily. But since he's His Masters Voice of AIPAC no-one wonders anymore.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 4, 2017 - 4:53pm
@John G:
"Aaaaaaand Kelly proves once and for all that he is, at the very least, an Israeli apologist, in attempting to paint the Palestinians as equally powerful and blameworthy."
 
Aaaaaaannnnnnddddd John G proves again that he can't stand anyone who doesn't agree with every little thing he says.  There is no middle ground with John, only his way.  If you do not agree with exactly what he says you are a racist or hasbara troll.  Or both.

"The Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed from most of their land and live under a brutal military occupation."
 
This is why they need their own country.

"There is no equality of power or guilt."
 
Well, I'm sure that's a comfort for Israeli or Egyptian citizens who died as a result of terrorist actions originating out of the Gaza Strip.

"Gaza is a ghetto under siege by the USA,"
 
Wow, there are US soldiers participating?  Did not know that!!!!
(That's sarcasm, John)
 
"Israel AND the puppet, murderous dictator of Egypt."
 
Oh, wow, John actually includes a country not named "Israel" in his pantheon of evil!!!!
 
That's growth, John.
 
So, let's see.  Terrorists attack Israeli and Egyptian citizens and the response should be.....not a damn thing.  Yeah, that's realistic.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 4, 2017 - 5:07pm
@SEF:
 
I'm just going to answer both of your posts here:
"Jeffrey
Sorry, but that "terrorist" argument doesn't work with me anymore. Only a margin of those so-called terrorists work for their own cause. The vast majority are comparable to mercenaries who are paid for a job serving other interests. From the Maidan to Brussels, London or Paris."
 
It's irrelevant if these are mercenaries or "True Believers" in the cause.  That distinction means nothing to the victims.

"Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 4, 2017 - 4:24pm
Unfollow Me
Delete comment
BTW: Do you think that countries like the big Egypt and the heavily armed Israel are afraid of those small-scaled attacks from some Palestinian kids ? Not at all."
 
Well, SEF, if their citizens are victims then it doesn't matter what the scale was.  It especially means something in Israel, a parliamentary democracy.  The goal of any democratically elected government is to stay in power and voters quite understandably don't take kindly to their fellow countrymen dying.  Even a dictatorship has to worry to some degree, it shows a weakness they cannot afford.
 
"They NEED them to get their interests trough on an international audience, and the kids firing those rockets are either paid or - really think that they're disadvantaged. Which they are, in fact."
 
Agreed.  The Palestinians are victims and I understand why some of them would choose terrorism.  But, irregardless, these type of actions trigger a reaction.
John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 5:53pm
Wow, there are US soldiers participating?  
Yes, there are. I wasn't referring to soldiers actually but yes there are.
Did not know that!!!!
I'm not surprised, you are nothing if not ignorant.
John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 5:54pm
So according to Kelly, Palestinians are terrorists.
John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 6:25pm
And they don't have equal legal rights under international law. Every population under occupation has the legal (and moral) right to resist. But the Kellys of this world would have you believe that resistance is aggression (when practised by Palestinians).
The reverse logic applies to the zionists of course. Their aggression is portrayed as self defence.
Sick, twisted and morally repugnant.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 4, 2017 - 6:32pm
Thomas thinks, "Since you have no idea what the United Nations has been doing in the last 40 years."
 
I know the annexation of the Golan and East Jerusalem is in violation of UN Resolutions. The occupation and the building of Jewish settlements on Palestinian land is in violation of UN Resolutions. Communal punishment of Palestinians is in violation of the Geneva Convention.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 4, 2017 - 6:34pm
@John G
 
"Wow, there are US soldiers participating?
Yes, there are. I wasn't referring to soldiers actually but yes there are.
Did not know that!!!!
I'm not surprised, you are nothing if not ignorant."
 
There are US troops assisting in enforcing the blockade of the Gaza Strip????
 
Prove it.  I want proof that US troops are enforcing the blockade of the Gaza Strip.

John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 5:54pm
Follow Me
Delete comment
"So according to Kelly, Palestinians are terrorists."
 
No, according to me you are a conspiracy theory obsessed loon.  I hope that makes it clearer, John.  I hate to have any sort of misunderstanding between us.
John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 6:45pm
No, according to me you are a conspiracy theory obsessed loon.
Cheap smears and ad hominem is all you've got, Kelly.
You're actually promoting the zionists' conspiracy theory here about Palestinian 'terrorism'.
You're an establishment narrative swallowing authoritarian. And a troll.
John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 6:48pm
US Army Corps of Engineers in Gaza
Results: 457,000.
John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 7:06pm
Well, I'm sure that's a comfort for Israeli or Egyptian citizens who died as a result of terrorist actions originating out of the Gaza Strip.
Such as?
Palestinian deaths vs Israeli deaths.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 4, 2017 - 9:31pm
@John G
"No, according to me you are a conspiracy theory obsessed loon.
Cheap smears and ad hominem is all you've got, Kelly."
 
Nope, I'm positive you are a conspiracy theory obsessed loon. You are also intolerant to the nth degree to anyone who doesn't believe in your beliefs.
 
"You're actually promoting the zionists' conspiracy theory here about Palestinian 'terrorism'."
 
So, Palestinians are not terrorists? No Palestinian has ever committed a terrorist act?
Wow, it's amazing you actually have the ability to type in complete sentences.
 
"You're an establishment narrative swallowing"
 
Because I don't believe in your whackaloon conspiracy theories. Got it.
 
"authoritarian."
 
I'm a liberal democrat. Yeah, I'm real authoritarian.
 
"And a troll."
 
Hhhhhhhmmmm, let's see. I'm the troll yet you post off topic crap in my posts. Got it.
 
"John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 6:48pm
Follow Me
Delete comment
US Army Corps of Engineers in Gaza
Results: 457,000."
 
LOL, from 2009, you jackass. The US Army Corps of Engineers helped the Egyptians cut tunnels used for smuggling in and out of the Gaza Strip.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 4, 2017 - 9:33pm
@John G
 
"Well, I'm sure that's a comfort for Israeli or Egyptian citizens who died as a result of terrorist actions originating out of the Gaza Strip.
Such as?
Palestinian deaths vs Israeli deaths."
 
There are Israeli deaths recorded in that graph, jackass.
John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 10:35pm
I'm a liberal democrat. Yeah, I'm real authoritarian.
You're a neoliberal 'centrist' that believes the government and the press no matter how irrational.
That makes you an authoritarian by definition.
 
So, Palestinians are not terrorists? No Palestinian has ever committed a terrorist act?
One is not the same as the other.
 
LOL, from 2009, you jackass. The US Army Corps of Engineers helped the Egyptians cut tunnels used for smuggling in and out of the Gaza Strip.
YOU brought up US troops, not me, smeg breath. 
 
Hhhhhhhmmmm, let's see. I'm the troll yet you post off topic crap in my posts.
So you are still claiming that Gaza is NOT a ghetto?
Or is it only not a ghetto because the inhabitants are Arabs and not human in your racial hierarchy?
John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 10:36pm
Well, I'm sure that's a comfort for Israeli or Egyptian citizens who died as a result of terrorist actions originating out of the Gaza Strip.
Such as?
John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 10:38pm
There are Israeli deaths recorded in that graph, jackass.
I'm well aware of that, smeg breath.
Your point? Apart from avoiding answering a direct question like a good troll.
John G Added Oct 5, 2017 - 1:19am
No doubt Kelly still believes in Iraqi WMDs and mobile anthrax labs.
How the CIA Invented and Promoted 'Conspiracy Theories' to Discredit Controversial Views
During the mid-1960s there had been increasing public skepticism about the Warren Commission findings that a lone gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald, had been solely responsible for President Kennedy’s assassination, and growing suspicions that top-ranking American leaders had also been involved. So as a means of damage control, the CIA distributed a secret memo to all its field offices requesting that they enlist their media assets in efforts to ridicule and attack such critics as irrational supporters of “conspiracy theories.” Soon afterward, there suddenly appeared statements in the media making those exact points, with some of the wording, arguments, and patterns of usage closely matching those CIA guidelines. The result was a huge spike in the pejorative use of the phrase, which spread throughout the American media, with the residual impact continuing right down to the present day. Thus, there is considerable evidence in support of this particular “conspiracy theory” explaining the widespread appearance of attacks on “conspiracy theories” in the public media.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 6:56am
@John G
"I'm a liberal democrat. Yeah, I'm real authoritarian.

You're a neoliberal 'centrist' that believes the government and the press no matter how irrational."
 
No, I just don't believe in whackaloon conspiracy theories and I can see both sides. I also realize I live in the real world, John. Israel is there, so, unless your solution is wholesale genocide or the forcible removal of some six million Jews there has to be a solution to accommodate both sides. Hence, the two-state solution.
 
"That makes you an authoritarian by definition."
 
Your definition, therefore useless and irrelevant.
 
"So, Palestinians are not terrorists? No Palestinian has ever committed a terrorist act?
One is not the same as the other."
 
How so? Both wind up with dead and injured people.
 
"LOL, from 2009, you jackass. The US Army Corps of Engineers helped the Egyptians cut tunnels used for smuggling in and out of the Gaza Strip.
YOU brought up US troops, not me, smeg breath."
 
John, you said the Gaza is under siege by the USA. You need a physical pressence to be included in a siege, you can't psychically participate. This isn't a long distance kind of relationship. When I said my sarcastic bit about soldiers, instead of clarifying what you meant you made reference to the US Army Corps of Engineers. Well, they were there in 2009, they aren't, as far as I can tell, there today. The only thing they did was help the Egyptians destroy tunnels used for smuggling, they were not part of any military operations.
 
"Hhhhhhhmmmm, let's see. I'm the troll yet you post off topic crap in my posts.
So you are still claiming that Gaza is NOT a ghetto?"
 
No, not a ghetto or a prison. I'm not sure either designation really fits.
 
"Or is it only not a ghetto because the inhabitants are Arabs and not human in your racial hierarchy?"
 
First of all, John, fuck you.
 
Second of all, it's hard for me to have a "racial hierarchy" considering I don't believe in races, only ethnic identities. We are all humans but certain evolutionary conditions led to certain populations looking different from the others. Humans are still evolving, that means all of us, not just certain "races."
 
John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 10:36pm
Follow Me
Delete comment
Well, I'm sure that's a comfort for Israeli or Egyptian citizens who died as a result of terrorist actions originating out of the Gaza Strip.
Such as?"
 
Do you want a list?
 
"John G Added Oct 4, 2017 - 10:38pm
Follow Me
Delete comment
There are Israeli deaths recorded in that graph, jackass.
I'm well aware of that, smeg breath."
 
Didn't seem like it. But, I noticed you don't explain yourself very well.
 
"Your point? Apart from avoiding answering a direct question like a good troll."
 
My point? You can't figure that out by looking at your own graph?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 7:00am
@John G
 
"No doubt Kelly still believes in Iraqi WMDs and mobile anthrax labs."
 
No doubt that John G believes that micro-lasers and mini-nukes brought down the Twin Towers.  They were put there by the Mossad, the CIA and reptilians from Uranus.

How the CIA Invented and Promoted 'Conspiracy Theories' to Discredit Controversial Views
During the mid-1960s there had been increasing public skepticism about the Warren Commission findings that a lone gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald, had been solely responsible for President Kennedy’s assassination, and growing suspicions that top-ranking American leaders had also been involved. So as a means of damage control, the CIA distributed a secret memo to all its field offices requesting that they enlist their media assets in efforts to ridicule and attack such critics as irrational supporters of “conspiracy theories.” Soon afterward, there suddenly appeared statements in the media making those exact points, with some of the wording, arguments, and patterns of usage closely matching those CIA guidelines. The result was a huge spike in the pejorative use of the phrase, which spread throughout the American media, with the residual impact continuing right down to the present day. Thus, there is considerable evidence in support of this particular “conspiracy theory” explaining the widespread appearance of attacks on “conspiracy theories” in the public media."
 
Snore.
 
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 9:06am
After some reflection....I guess we can call Gaza a "ghetto."  I guess it fits enough that this designation works.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 5, 2017 - 3:42pm
Jeffery, welcome to the real world! :)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 5, 2017 - 3:47pm
Jeffrey
 
After some reflection....I guess we can call Gaza a "ghetto."
 
Thanks. Nice to see that arguments still can make people reflect :-) I also had to admit at one point that Switzerland is a nice country to look at but it's foreign policy is bullshit. We're a bunch of cowards, and that's also why I'm leaving.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 5, 2017 - 3:48pm
Why the fuck do I always write it's when I mean its ? Get off my back, Alzheimer !
John G Added Oct 5, 2017 - 3:50pm
Your definition, therefore useless and irrelevant.
It may be inconvenient to you but it is English. And you don't get to change the meaning of words, smeg breath.
How so? Both wind up with dead and injured people.
Because one is collective punishment. Why is Israel not blockaded?
You need a physical pressence (sic) to be included in a siege, 
There's that Humpty Dumpty version of English again. The siege would not exist without the US. 
No, not a ghetto or a prison. I'm not sure either designation really fits.
Why? What doesn't fit?
Second of all, it's hard for me to have a "racial hierarchy" considering I don't believe in races, only ethnic identities. 
Avoiding the point and misusing language again.
My point? You can't figure that out by looking at your own graph?
It's not MY graph, smeg breath. But the graph clearly shows that Israel causes far more Palestinian deaths than vice versa. Yet you aren't calling for a blockade of Israel strangely.
Why is that?
Double standards is why. You are blaming the victims of Israel and excusing collective punishment.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 3:51pm
Well, it fits, I guess.  It has all the appearance of a ghetto, limited access to the outside world, dependent on an outside power for its supplies, limited ability for people to get in and out, etc.
 
However, Ray, my original point regarding Israel and Palestine still stand. We need a two-state solution.  I remain critical of Israeli policies but I understand their security concerns.
 
Also, Israel bashing simply makes me tired.  I'm willing to listen to both sides and I have.  You don't seem like an unreasonable sort so I'm willing to hear you out.
 
However, a discussion regarding Israel and its policies is better suited for a specific article regarding it.  But, I'm the flexible sort so I don't mind off-topic discussion on what I write and I have a policy of not deleting comments (even when I'm wrong or look like an ass) adopted after I once did so and felt bad about it.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 4:02pm
@SEF:
"Thanks. Nice to see that arguments still can make people reflect :-) 
 
Well, it just fits.  I don't approve, naturally.  It's ironic that the Israelis chose to do this, considering the history involved.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 5, 2017 - 4:08pm
Jeffrey
 
It's ironic that the Israelis chose to do this, considering the history involved.
 
People forget easily and restart to follow nature...and apart from that: Zionist are about the same small percentage as Wahhabia extremist Muslims are. The media makes them big. Tel Aviv isn't really a big synagogue LOL
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 4:19pm
@John G:
"Your definition, therefore useless and irrelevant.
It may be inconvenient to you but it is English. And you don't get to change the meaning of words, smeg breath."
 
Not inconvenient to me because it doesn't apply to me.  You applied a label to me based upon your arbitrary decision on who and what I am.  Well, fuck you, John.  I don't accept labels from whackaloon conspiracy theorists who are intolerant and inflexible to boot.  That's a you problem, not me.
 
"How so? Both wind up with dead and injured people.
Because one is collective punishment. Why is Israel not blockaded?"
 
Why is Israel involved there in the first place, John?

"You need a physical pressence (sic) to be included in a siege,
There's that Humpty Dumpty version of English again. The siege would not exist without the US."
 
Are struggling with basic concepts again?

"No, not a ghetto or a prison. I'm not sure either designation really fits.
Why? What doesn't fit?"
 
I've changed my mind about this.

"Second of all, it's hard for me to have a "racial hierarchy" considering I don't believe in races, only ethnic identities.
Avoiding the point and misusing language again."
 
It's exactly the point.  You essentially accused me of being a racist, of having a "racial hierarchy."  I can't because I don't believe in races.  Oh, fuck you again for that, BTW.

"My point? You can't figure that out by looking at your own graph?
It's not MY graph, smeg breath."
 
You posted it, you own it, dog meat.
 
"But the graph clearly shows that Israel causes far more Palestinian deaths than vice versa."
 
Deaths are deaths, whackaloon.  The Israelis are not going to passively sit by while terrorists in Gaza shell their populace.  Perception is everything.
 
"Yet you aren't calling for a blockade of Israel strangely."
 
Actually, what I've said is that Israeli aid needs to be linked with their compliance to UN resolutions and international law.

"Why is that?"
 
I just explained it....

"Double standards is why."
 
Oopsie, here we go.......
 
"You are blaming the victims of Israel"
 
Is it OK if I also blame Palestinians for their terrorist actions?  Or does that not fit in your racial hierarchy?
 
"and excusing collective punishment."
 
Actually, no, I'm not.  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 4:34pm
@SEF:
 
"People forget easily and restart to follow nature..."
 
Yes, Stone, humans never learn a fucking thing.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 5, 2017 - 4:48pm
Opher
 
No use to complain. See my comments on Katharine's new article. It points into the same direction.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 5, 2017 - 4:53pm
BTW Opher:
 
I don't accept labels from whackaloon conspiracy theorists who are intolerant and inflexible to boot.
 
Hm. Let me tell you that so-called conspiracies are mostly better researched than official media, and they mostly turn out as true -> attention span + historical knowledge + the ultimate question: Who profits ?
 
We have seen that in numerous cases such as the WMD in Iraq. Geostrategy. What the official media tells us are slogans easy to remember for the Twitter generation. But that's another agenda - or "conspiracy theory", if you will LOL
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 5:30pm
@SEF:
"BTW Opher:"
 
I think you mean me, Stone.

"I don't accept labels from whackaloon conspiracy theorists who are intolerant and inflexible to boot.

Hm. Let me tell you that so-called conspiracies are mostly better researched than official media, and they mostly turn out as true -> attention span + historical knowledge + the ultimate question: Who profits ?"
 
No, not really.
At one time I became fascinated by the various conspiracy theories floating out there when I was a kid.  The biggest one for me was JFK's Assassination.  I ate that up, it was the CIA, no, the Mob, no, the Military Industrial Complex who wanted to remain in Vietnam, no, the Shadow Government, etc., etc.  
 
As I got older I started looking into it with a jaundiced eye.  I realized, with some additional research, that Oswald acted alone.  Were there discrepancies?  Yes, of course, just like with any human event.  But, you have to burrow through the bullshit to find the truth.
 
Later on in life, with the advent of the internet, I noticed the growth of multiple conspiracies on-line.  Any dickhead with a computer could toss out the most random shit ever and people would believe it.  Flat-earth?  Yup.  Nuclear weapons a myth?  Yup X 2.
 
With my background it is no surprise that I gravitated towards Holocaust denial.  The implications of such a thing stunned me.....until I looked closely at it and found it chock full of holes.  It sickened me with its implied racism and antisemitism.  I started whacking deniers on-line....which, of course, led me many different directions.
 
Deniers led me to the "Truthers," a weird amalgamation of antisemites and Israel bashers, New-Age whackadoodles, government conspiracy theorists, etc., etc.  Their claims were easily debunked with just a little research.
 
See, Stone, I've been around the block with this many, many times.

"We have seen that in numerous cases such as the WMD in Iraq."
 
WMD's were quickly debunked in the mainstream media, Stone.  
 
"Geostrategy. What the official media tells us are slogans easy to remember for the Twitter generation. But that's another agenda - or "conspiracy theory", if you will LOL"
 
Conspiracies exist, Stone.  But, the more convoluted a "conspiracy theory" gets the more likely it is just horse shit.  People really aren't that smart and really suck at keeping secrets.  The truth always outs.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 5, 2017 - 5:42pm
Opher
 
What is the "truth" ? Who allows us to see which "truth" ? You see, when I hear Wesley Clark about longterm US war agenda 10 years before and then see that it happend and I read stuff like this
 
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=24369
 
It might be fake, but it looks like NOT. I see history as a constant struggle for hegemony by ANY people who has the chance for it, and history proves it right. Caesar used propaganda, the Popes did and Goebbels did. So why should it be different today ?
 
WHO PROFITS.....NOW....or later IF......?
 
And that's not a moral question. Humans are not good per se. They're dumb animals when the "civilization cover" is lifted.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 5, 2017 - 5:48pm
BTW: Humans are NOT capable to understand the world in the short life span they have. Nature did not foresee mental progress. If it would, it would accept that people who are old and wise can liv,e longer to have an impact on future. They can only advise the young, but they are, by nature, bound to fail - because experience is a condition to get "wise". And youth + experience is simply not possible.
 
You see ?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 6:10pm
Stone, it's Jeffrey (Jeff), not Opher.
 
In my car, will respond later.
John G Added Oct 5, 2017 - 6:19pm
If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
~ Desmond Tutu
John G Added Oct 5, 2017 - 6:30pm
Not inconvenient to me because it doesn't apply to me.  
You are clearly a high rwa follower. So yes it does apply to you. You are beholden to your authority figures and institutions for what you choose to believe.
You've proven this of yourself over and over here.
That makes you an authoritarian. It has nothing to do with your 'liberal' stances on social wedge and identity issues.

Why is Israel involved there in the first place, John?
WTF? They are the colonial invaders and the occupiers/oppressors.
 
It's exactly the point.  You essentially accused me of being a racist, of having a "racial hierarchy."  I can't because I don't believe in races.  Oh, fuck you again for that, BTW.
Well under that definition there is no such thing as racism. Sounds ;like something the alt right would say.
 
Deaths are deaths, whackaloon.  The Israelis are not going to passively sit by while terrorists in Gaza shell their populace.  Perception is everything.
This Zionist hasbara — frequently parroted by the US government and mainstream media — is deceit by omission. It’s true that in the years prior to Israel’s 2008-09 “Operation Cast Lead” thousands of rockets were fired at Israel from Gaza — and indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli population centers are certainly war crimes. However, what the Zionists don’t tell you is that on June 19, Israel and Hamas entered into a ceasefire agreement that was repeatedly violated not by Hamas, but Israel.
The New York Times actually reported on the most serious of those Israeli violations on the day it occurred (November 4, 2008), but thereafter tossed this fact down the memory hole. Subsequently, when it referred to the ceasefire, it merely said that it “broke down” without stating the reason why: because it was violated by Israel. More frequently, that there had even been a ceasefire — much less that it was not Hamas but Israel who violated it — was completely omitted, replaced by a false narrative in which Israel was acting in self defense against Hamas rocket attacks.
As illustrated by Operation Cast Lead, it is a modus operandi of Israel’s to take actions to attempt to provoke a violent response from Palestinian militants in order to create pretexts for its own resorts to its own violence, which occurs on an incomparably greater scale.
 
"and excusing collective punishment."
 
Actually, no, I'm not.  
And yet here you are defending the collective punishment of Palestinians for defending themselves from their occupiers. And justifying that collective punishment on behalf of the occupiers.
 
You're an utter fraud.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 5, 2017 - 6:34pm
John G Added Oct 5, 2017 - 6:34pm
Their claims were easily debunked with just a little research.
But you never, ever do. You never, ever address any of the myriad discrepancies in the official stories. Yes, plural.
Instead, you smear people and falsely associate skeptics with holocaust deniers and antisemites.
You're a fraud.
You haven't addresses SEF's point at all. Instead you've skated around it, careful not to engage his argument.
Like a practised professional troll would.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 6:51pm
@Ray Cormier:
""But the graph clearly shows that Israel causes far more Palestinian deaths than vice versa."

Total fatalities in the history of rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza into Israel: 44

Israel killed more Palestinians in 2014 than in any other year since 1967"
 
Are you saying that Israeli deaths don't count as much as Palestinian deaths, Ray?  That's a bit of an odd attitude to take, don't you think?  My understanding is that you are a Christian man, aren't we all equal in the eyes of God and each death is a tragedy?
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 5, 2017 - 7:05pm
Actually Jeffery there is not one word of my own in the comment, so please don't put words in my mouth that originate in your imagination.
 
 
John G Added Oct 5, 2017 - 7:18pm
Even calling them rockets and mortars is disingenuous. Home made tubes.
Compared to Israeli F-16s and helicopter gun ships and the like.
A 10 year old Palestinian kid with a rock is a terrorist. An Israeli in full armor hiding behind a Palestinian kid is a hero.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 8:24pm
@SEF:
"Opher"
 
Jeffrey.

"What is the "truth" ?"
 
Well, I know that the Mossad, the CIA, a Jewish landlord or reptilians from the 5th dimension didn't bring down the Twin Towers or shoot a missile into the Pentagon.  That's truth.
 
"Who allows us to see which "truth" ? You see, when I hear Wesley Clark about longterm US war agenda 10 years before and then see that it happend"
 
If it's that video from YouTube you showed me then that's kinda barking up the wrong tree.  All militaries make contingency plans, there are probably contingency plans for invading Switzerland.  The fact that the Bush Administration took advantage of the 9-11 Attacks is not a surprise even if it was a despicable thing to do.
 
"and I read stuff like this

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=24369"
 
Sigh.
Stone-Eater, I've read things like that before.  It's a typical denier bullshit, one of the more amusing things I saw was this:
 
"Given six million Jews gassed at Auschwitz who ended up in the “burning ovens” (the Greek word holocaust means burned offerings), therefore, the prophecies have now been “fulfilled” and Israel can become a “legitimate state”. –Unknown"
 
Six million Jews didn't die at Auschwitz, not even close, major fail.  Also, Jewish scholars dislike the word "Holocaust" due to its pagan origins, they prefer the term "Shoah," it means "catastrophe" in Hebrew.
 
If you have questions about this kind of stuff, ask me.  

"It might be fake, but it looks like NOT."
 
It's fake.
 
"I see history as a constant struggle for hegemony by ANY people who has the chance for it, and history proves it right."
 
You are right.
 
"Caesar used propaganda, the Popes did and Goebbels did. So why should it be different today ?"
 
It isn't.  Except in your case you seem to only see one side.  The Muslim world has a major beef with the West and for good reason.  The Western world's obsession with oil clashes with a large percentage of the Muslim world's desire to be left alone.  There are competing forces at work here, this where wars start.  

"WHO PROFITS.....NOW....or later IF......?"
 
It isn't always about money.  

"And that's not a moral question. Humans are not good per se. They're dumb animals when the "civilization cover" is lifted."
 
Agreed.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 8:25pm
@Ray Cormier:
 
"Actually Jeffery there is not one word of my own in the comment, so please don't put words in my mouth that originate in your imagination."
 
You chose to put those under your name, Ray.  You post it, you own it.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 8:28pm
@John G:
 
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
~ Desmond Tutu"
 
I love the psuedo-intellectual BS, John.  You think it makes you look smart, the reality is it makes you look like a douche.
 
No offense.
John G Added Oct 5, 2017 - 8:53pm
Deny, evade, change the subject, attack the messenger. Never engage the argument.
Troll school 101.
You know nothing about the muslim world or why the empire is attacking it, you disgusting islamophobe.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 8:57pm
@John G:
"Not inconvenient to me because it doesn't apply to me. 
You are clearly a high rwa follower."
 
LOL, what the fuck is that??????  John, if you call me something you need to define it for me.
 
"So yes it does apply to you."
 
Not if I don't know what the fuck it means.  What the fuck is a "high rwa follower?"
 
"You are beholden to your authority figures and institutions for what you choose to believe."
 
Because I don't believe every word that you spew out on your computer?  What an enlightened attitude you have, douche.

"You've proven this of yourself over and over here."
 
To your warped worldview, I guess I have.  After all, I don't believe every word you say.  Because you are an intolerant, overbearing douche.
 
"That makes you an authoritarian."
 
In your paranoid delusional world, maybe so.  In the real world, absolutely not.
 
"It has nothing to do with your 'liberal' stances on social wedge and identity issues."
 
Sure, douche.
 
"Why is Israel involved there in the first place, John?
WTF? They are the colonial invaders and the occupiers/oppressors."
 
Yes, I know.  So, what should we do with them, John?  It's obvious now you are a revolting antisemite.  Should we go with an oldie but goody and gas them?  Roast them over flames?  Or, should we do something more modern and use nuclear weapons?  Bio-weapons?  

"It's exactly the point. You essentially accused me of being a racist, of having a "racial hierarchy." I can't because I don't believe in races. Oh, fuck you again for that, BTW.
Well under that definition there is no such thing as racism. Sounds ;like something the alt right would say."
 
Huh?  Do you even know what the alt-right is?


"Deaths are deaths, whackaloon. The Israelis are not going to passively sit by while terrorists in Gaza shell their populace. Perception is everything.
This Zionist hasbara — "
 
I enjoy it when you drag out the "hasbara," John.
 
"frequently parroted by the US government and mainstream media — is deceit by omission."
 
Of course.
 
"It’s true that in the years prior to Israel’s 2008-09 “Operation Cast Lead” thousands of rockets were fired at Israel from Gaza — and indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israeli population centers are certainly war crimes."
 
Whoa, I can't believe it, John actually conceded a point.
 
"However, what the Zionists don’t tell you"
 
Uh, oh, those fucking lying Zionists.
 
"is that on June 19, Israel and Hamas entered into a ceasefire agreement that was repeatedly violated not by Hamas, but Israel."
 
Shocking development!!!!!! 

"The New York Times actually reported on the most serious of those Israeli violations on the day it occurred (November 4, 2008), but thereafter tossed this fact down the memory hole."
 
Well, the Jews do own the New York Times.
 
"Subsequently, when it referred to the ceasefire, it merely said that it “broke down” without stating the reason why: because it was violated by Israel. More frequently, that there had even been a ceasefire — much less that it was not Hamas but Israel who violated it — was completely omitted, replaced by a false narrative in which Israel was acting in self defense against Hamas rocket attacks."
 
The answer is obviously genocide against every Jew on earth.
 

"As illustrated by Operation Cast Lead, it is a modus operandi of Israel’s to take actions to attempt to provoke a violent response from Palestinian militants in order to create pretexts for its own resorts to its own violence, which occurs on an incomparably greater scale."
 
I think we should just nuke Israel.

"and excusing collective punishment."

"Actually, no, I'm not.
And yet here you are defending the collective punishment of Palestinians for defending themselves from their occupiers."
 
Uh, no, I'm not.  What I am saying is that while attacks continue this state of affairs will continue.
 
"And justifying that collective punishment on behalf of the occupiers."
 
You are incapable of actually understanding what I'm saying.  Why?  Because you've already made up your mind.

"You're an utter fraud."
 
You're a giant douche.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 9:03pm
@John G:
"Deny, evade, change the subject, attack the messenger."
 
Hey, sounds like a certain douche I know.
 
"Never engage the argument."
 
What's the point?  Antisemites who want genocide are impossible to argue with.
 
"Troll school 101."
 
Is that where you graduated from.
 
"You know nothing about the muslim world"
 
LOL, says you, douche.
 
"or why the empire is attacking it,"
 
What empire?
 
"you disgusting islamophobe."
 
Of course a genocidal antisemite would say that.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 9:18pm
@ John G
"Their claims were easily debunked with just a little research.
But you never, ever do. You never, ever address any of the myriad discrepancies in the official stories. Yes, plural."
 
I have, John.  I posted a lot of them in Jen's post.  I'm not going to sit there and that all over again, especially in a post about ghettos.  
 
"Instead, you smear people"
 
Well, I'm a tad annoyed with you for posting random shit in my posts, insulting me at every turn, making random accusations about me, etc.  If you think I owe you any courtesy you can go piss up a rope.  I tried to be pleasant, John.  I no longer see any point in being that way with you, the paranoid, delusional douche you are.
 
"and falsely associate skeptics with holocaust deniers and antisemites."
 
For fuck's sake, for the last time, not every "Truther" is a "denier" and not "denier" is a "Truther."  However, a lot of the arguments both use are similar to each other.  I'll remind you, John, that I found "Truthers" through a denier site.  I'd never heard of such a thing until then.
 
"You're a fraud."
 
You're a douche.  You are also an intolerant, overbearing, vile little antisemite, John.

"You haven't addresses SEF's point at all."
 
Uh, yeah, I did, but I'm not going into this in any depth in a fucking comment.  
 
"Instead you've skated around it, careful not to engage his argument."
 
John, why do you think I copy and paste comments?  It's because I can then go line by line and reply to each line or paragraph.

"Like a practised professional troll would."
 
Is that what they taught you in professional troll school?
John G Added Oct 5, 2017 - 9:28pm
To your warped worldview, I guess I have.  After all, I don't believe every word you say.
Not at all Mr Strawman builder. It is about knee jerk rejection of alternative (to official sources) evidence.
And the deliberate smearing of those who don't accept your gospel.
Hypocrite.
In your paranoid delusional world, maybe so.  In the real world, absolutely not.
No. In the real world it means you are an authoritarian thinker i.e. you follow rather than think.
Yes, I know.  So, what should we do with them, John?  It's obvious now you are a revolting antisemite
LOLOLOLOLOLz
I'm with Edward Said and have been for years. There is no 2 state solution. It's just a farce. The Israeli elite states repeatedly that there will never be a Palestinian state.
So stop the charade that amounts to the slow genocide of Palestinians and the erasure of Palestinian society and history.
Huh?  Do you even know what the alt-right is?
Yes I do. I don't count liberals as being much different to the right on substantive issues of war and peace and economic justice.
You are neoliberals and neoconservatives.
Definitely anti-progressive.
The answer is obviously genocide against every Jew on earth.
And you wonder why you get called a hasbara agent?
You are a pathetic enabler of the occupation, an islamophobe and a massive hypocrite.
It's little wonder that you choose to 'debate' the knuckleheads in the Nazi and holocaust denial fringes.
 
John G Added Oct 5, 2017 - 9:29pm
Of course a genocidal antisemite would say that.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLz.
Twat.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 5, 2017 - 11:08pm
@John G
"To your warped worldview, I guess I have. After all, I don't believe every word you say.
Not at all Mr Strawman builder."
 
Why, yes, yes indeed.
 
"It is about knee jerk rejection of alternative (to official sources) evidence."
 
No, it's about me laughing at whackaloons like you, John.
 
"And the deliberate smearing of those who don't accept your gospel."
 
That's funny, you see, Holocaust deniers often claim that "believers" are members of the "Holocaust Church" and that Raul Hilberg wrote the official "gospels."
See how I connect the dots?
 
"Hypocrite."
 
Douchebag.
 
"In your paranoid delusional world, maybe so. In the real world, absolutely not.
No. In the real world it means you are an authoritarian thinker i.e. you follow rather than think."
 
Yes, do I need to take a "red pill?"
LOL
 
"Yes, I know. So, what should we do with them, John? It's obvious now you are a revolting antisemite.

LOLOLOLOLOLz"
 
You are a revolting antisemite, John. It drips from every word.
 
"I'm with Edward Said and have been for years."
 
That's nice.
"There is no 2 state solution."
 
Well, aren't you just a ray of sunshine.
 
"It's just a farce."
 
Well, I'm reading a farce right now.
 
"The Israeli elite states repeatedly that there will never be a Palestinian state."
 
This is why if I had the power...which I don't....I'd link any continuing aid to Israel with her compliance on the formation of an independent Palestinian state. The caveat to this would be cessation of any terrorist activities. To enforce this UN peacekeeping forces would occupy the area while Israel withdrew behind her established borders. All illegal settlements would be emptied with US assistance to help with the rehabilitation of these settlers with matching funds to help rehabilitate Palestinian areas. Afterwards the Palestinians would agree to control terrorist activities in their areas.
See? This is what I want to happen. But, I don't see it happening anytime soon.
 
"So stop the charade that amounts to the slow genocide of Palestinians and the erasure of Palestinian society and history."
 
So, again, because I don't agree with everything you've said I simply don't care what happens to the Palestinians.
Stupid douche.

"Huh? Do you even know what the alt-right is?
Yes I do."
 
Doesn't seem like it.

"I don't count liberals as being much different to the right on substantive issues of war and peace and economic justice."
 
Yes, because they aren't whackaloons like you. Got it.
 
"You are neoliberals and neoconservatives."
 
You're a fucking douche.

"Definitely anti-progressive.
The answer is obviously genocide against every Jew on earth.
And you wonder why you get called a hasbara agent?"
 
I honestly don't give a fuck. 

"You are a pathetic enabler of the occupation,"
 
Because I don't call for genocide of Jews? I know, it's a bitch, isn't it?
 
"an islamophobe"
 
Wow, it's amazing, I'm an Islamophobe because I'm not an antisemite like John.
 
"and a massive hypocrite."
 
Because I'm not an antisemite. Got it.
 
"It's little wonder that you choose to 'debate' the knuckleheads in the Nazi and holocaust denial fringes."
 
Hey, don't put them down. They are just like you, they hate Jews.

John G Added Oct 5, 2017 - 9:29pm
Follow Me
Delete comment
"Of course a genocidal antisemite would say that.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLz."
 
Wow, John, thinks being a genocidal antisemite is funny. You need help, dude.

"Twat."
 
Fucktard.
John G Added Oct 5, 2017 - 11:26pm
You haven't addressed a single point and you're reduced to strawmen and ad hominem. 
You're a slimy troll, Kelly. 
There is absolutely no viability in your 'plan' for Palestine.
So it's just the same macabre dance of death (to Palestine) that your puppet masters play.
Nobody but you has mentioned 'genocide of Jews' but you, smeg breath.
John G Added Oct 5, 2017 - 11:37pm
The caveat to this would be cessation of any terrorist activities.
Afterwards the Palestinians would agree to control terrorist activities in their areas.
Different standards for zionists and Palestinians and implicit demonisation of the Palestinian people.
A population under occupation has every legal right to resist. And a moral duty.
Peaceful resistance has always been met with barbaric brutality and cruelty by the zionists.
And our great 'liberal' friend here condones and apologises for this brutality and collective punishment whilst claiming 'concern[' for the Palestinians. 
Whilst demonising them.
Filthy, lying, deceitful, intellectually vacuous, morally bankrupt scum.
 
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 5, 2017 - 11:55pm
Jeffery, what a ridiculous reply to this, "But the graph clearly shows that Israel causes far more Palestinian deaths than vice versa."
 
target="_blank">Total fatalities in the history of rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza into Israel: 44
 
target="_blank">Israel killed more Palestinians in 2014 than in any other year since 1967
 
The links lead to statistics, not the meaning of death for the families on one side or the other.
Naturally, there would be more grief on the Palestinian side just because of the disproportionate number of deaths at the hands of Israelis.  One set of statistics indicate Israel might be engaging in State Terrorism.
 
For the 1st time, I saw glimmers John G might be right about you?
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 1:42am
 I tried to be pleasant, John.
LOLz I missed that.
"Their claims were easily debunked with just a little research.
But you never, ever do. You never, ever address any of the myriad discrepancies in the official stories. Yes, plural."have, John.  I posted a lot of them in Jen's post. 

We all missed that. Link?
Burning down strawmen doesn't count.
You haven't addressed any discrepancies. You admitted that you didn't even look, you lying troll.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 6:58am
@Ray Cormier:
"Jeffery, what a ridiculous reply to this, "But the graph clearly shows that Israel causes far more Palestinian deaths than vice versa."

target="_blank">Total fatalities in the history of rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza into Israel: 44

target="_blank">Israel killed more Palestinians in 2014 than in any other year since 1967"
 
Ray, you chose to post links and didn't bother to explain why you did it.  The first link shows deaths from Gaza, the second is a link to a story in Guardian saying that more Palestinians died in 2014 than at any more time since 1967.  Both are from 2014.  The next time put a bit more explanation into what you are trying to say.


"The links lead to statistics, not the meaning of death for the families on one side or the other.
Naturally, there would be more grief on the Palestinian side just because of the disproportionate number of deaths at the hands of Israelis."
 
Sure, there might be.  But that doesn't mean that Israeli families won't feel grief at the loss of their loved ones...and express that grief to their government.
 
"One set of statistics indicate Israel might be engaging in State Terrorism."
 
 
Overreaction, definitely.

"For the 1st time, I saw glimmers John G might be right about you?"
 
Ray, John is a conspiracy theory obsessed freak who popped up on a story I wrote to argue about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.  It was completely unrelated to what I wrote.  John's litmus test is that if you don't agree with exactly everything he says you are a hasbara troll.  
 
 
The reality is that my background is history, especially European history, so that it is the lens I see things through.  I know how much European Jews suffered over the centuries, I correspond with a Holocaust survivor and I debate Holocaust deniers on-line.  I understand the obsession that the Israelis and Jews have over their security, I also understand why they don't trust anyone, the last time they relied on someone else to save them some 5.5 million of them wound up dead.
 
What I see is a lot of Israel bashing with no solutions on how to solve this.  If you have an idea I'm happy to hear it and discuss it.  
 
You know what the ironic thing is, Ray?  I also belong to a forum called the Skeptics Forum.  On there I've actually gotten into arguments with Jews and Israelis over the mistreatment of the Palestinian people.  Concerns over security do not excuse the oppression of anyone and behaving like Fascists is not the way to solve problems.  
 
But, ironically, I'm placed into the opposite position here.  I'm not particularly comfortable with it but I have to give their side of things because no one else will.  Israel is a reality that needs to be dealt with.  I want US politicians to show more firmness towards Israel over it's policies but the truth is none of them want to.  
 
That's it, Ray.  I don't really care what you think about me but it's probably helpful for you to see how I think about things.  I understand why Israel has the security concerns it does.  But, in my mind they tend to make things worse.  I also have no sympathy for terrorists, be they Muslim, Christian or Jew.  Indiscriminately firing rockets at civilian or military targets is an excellent way to provoke a pretty crappy response.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 8:38am
@John G
"You haven't addressed a single point and you're reduced to strawmen and ad hominem."
 
Yes, I know, because I don't agree with you.  I get it.
 
"You're a slimy troll, Kelly. "
 
You're an antisemitic, conspiracy theory obsessed douche, John.  Considering you are currently trolling my thread because you forgot to take your OCD medication, I find that accusation hysterical.

"There is absolutely no viability in your 'plan' for Palestine."
 
I know, because it doesn't include any mention of killing every Israeli currently living in the region.  Sorry, I'm not an antisemite who secretly wishes to murder every Jew currently living there.  I don't roll that way.

"So it's just the same macabre dance of death (to Palestine)"
 
I'm not sure where you got that from....but, who am I to question what a conspiracy theory obsessed loon says, right, John?
 
"that your puppet masters play."
 
Uh, oh, your conspiracy theory is showing, John.  So, who holds my strings, John?  This should be good.

"Nobody but you has mentioned 'genocide of Jews' but you, smeg breath."
 
Well, it's obvious what your solution is, John.  You don't have to spell it out, I get it.

John G Added Oct 5, 2017 - 11:37pm
Follow Me
Delete comment
"The caveat to this would be cessation of any terrorist activities.
Afterwards the Palestinians would agree to control terrorist activities in their areas.
Different standards for zionists and Palestinians and implicit demonisation of the Palestinian people."
 
Yes, that's me, I love to demonize Palestinians.  It's what I live for.

"A population under occupation has every legal right to resist. And a moral duty."
 
The flip side to that is any occupying power is under obligation to keep the peace and defend itself.  There are two sides to that coin, John.  There is always a reaction to any action.
 
I've actually argued this in other places.  I got into a rather heated discussion with someone over German actions as an occupying power during WW II.  The Geneva Conventions at that time permitted reprisals against the populace in cases of terrorism or sabotage (I can't remember if the updates still permit this).  The problem is that the Germans overreacted to terrorist activities in the occupied territories which were not permitted.  So, the issue is not that they shot hostages, the issue is they went way overboard in doing so.
 
"Regardless of whatever else they did, 
Peaceful resistance has always been met with barbaric brutality and cruelty by the zionists."
 
I know, Zionists suck.

"And our great 'liberal' friend here"
 
I am a liberal, John, thanks for acknowledging that.
 
"condones and apologises for this brutality and collective punishment whilst claiming 'concern[' for the Palestinians."
 
Is that what the voices in your head told you, John?

"Whilst demonising them."
 
Wow, the voices in your head are in overdrive mode this morning, John.

"Filthy, lying, deceitful, intellectually vacuous, morally bankrupt scum."
 
LOL, wow, I'm not sure if I should be hurt, offended, amused......
I think I'll just be amused.  Thanks for making laugh this morning, John.
 
"I tried to be pleasant, John.
LOLz I missed that."
 
Well, I requested that you write your own article about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, John.  I requested that you stay on topic in my thread.  I didn't curse at you or belittle you in any way.  Within about three comments you were accusing me of being a hasbara troll.  It's then that I realized there was no point in being pleasant.
 

"Their claims were easily debunked with just a little research.
But you never, ever do. You never, ever address any of the myriad discrepancies in the official stories. Yes, plural."
 
I have.  I just don't really see the point in rehashing this with you, John.  You obviously have some sort of mental deficiency that doesn't allow any sort of reasonable conversation to take place over your warped perceptions.  
 
"have, John. I posted a lot of them in Jen's post.
We all missed that. Link?"
 
Go to Jennifer's article about 9-11.

"Burning down strawmen doesn't count."
 
Yes, because anything that doesn't match your worldview doesn't count.  Got it.

"You haven't addressed any discrepancies."
 
Yes, I did.
&nb
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 8:39am
Cont....
"You admitted that you didn't even look, you lying troll."
 
Says the troll.  You are really good at this.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 6, 2017 - 9:11am
Jeffery, I've been involved in a few face to face, passionate debates in my lifetime, and at the end of all the words, we saw we were both arguing to make the same point, but from a different angle or perspective.
 
Your comment is very long, and they get longer as we re-post what has already been posted upstream.
 
For the last 24 hours it has been a 3 way with you, John G, and I.
I had to back track, to see who else showed some interest in the subject and re-read a lot of information.
 
What Stone Eater wrote yesterday makes sense to me, but in case you missed it here it is;
What is the "truth" ? Who allows us to see which "truth" ? You see, when I hear Wesley Clark about long term US war agenda 10 years before and then see that it happened and I read stuff like this
 
target="_blank">target="_blank">http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=24369
 
It might be fake, but it looks like NOT. I see history as a constant struggle for hegemony by ANY people who has the chance for it, and history proves it right. Caesar used propaganda, the Popes did and Goebbels did. So why should it be different today ?
Btw, Stone, in the spirit of your paragraph above, 5 years ago, I posted target="_blank">THE TOWER OF BABEL & THE BEGINNING OF NATIONS
 
WHO PROFITS.....NOW....or later IF......?
And that's not a moral question. Humans are not good per se. They're dumb animals when the "civilization cover" is lifted. [...]
 
I agree with the comment below by John G.
I saw Operation Cast Lead and the Orwellian named 'Operation Protective Edge' when Israel already had the protective edge with the Iron Dome system, as murderous bombardments on a civilian population with no defences.
Seeing Israel using illegal phosphorous bombs indiscriminately on the trapped civilian population of Gaza, as blaming them for what the Europeans did to Jews during WWII. The illegal phosphorous bombe left burn marks on the skin like the tattoos the Jews ere given during WWII.

"Even calling them rockets and mortars is disingenuous. Home made tubes. Compared to Israeli F-16s and helicopter gun ships and the like. A 10 year old Palestinian kid with a rock is a terrorist. An Israeli in full armour hiding behind a Palestinian kid is a hero."
 
Jeffery, obviously, while we don't see eye to eye on some things, this is ridiculous,
"Are you saying that Israeli deaths don't count as much as Palestinian deaths, Ray?  That's a bit of an odd attitude to take, don't you think?  My understanding is that you are a Christian man, aren't we all equal in the eyes of God and each death is a tragedy?  
 
You wrote, "Deaths are deaths, whackaloon.  The Israelis are not going to passively sit by while terrorists in Gaza shell their populace.  Perception is everything.
 
It was that statement that moved me to search for facts and figures.
on comparative death - Jewish vs Palestinian. A Jewish mother and a Palestinian mother feel the same pain and anguish when on side or the other takes a life.
 
Palestinian Youth have to live under the brutal Israeli Military Dictatorship in place since before they were born. With that hopelessness of ever getting out from under the Israeli boot, they opt for suicide by the IDF approaching a check point with a pencil, scissors, or other shiny object pointed at the troops knowing they will be shot DEAD, not disabled.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 6, 2017 - 9:18am
Stone Eater, these words impressed me more Today than when I read them Yesterday. Totally logical, reasonable and just plain common sense,
"BTW: Humans are NOT capable to understand the world in the short life span they have. Nature did not foresee mental progress. If it would, it would accept that people who are old and wise can liv,e longer to have an impact on future. They can only advise the young, but they are, by nature, bound to fail - because experience is a condition to get "wise". And youth + experience is simply not possible."
 
Are you familiar with Kahlil Gibran? He wrote 'On Children'
 
Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 10:18am
@Roy Cormier:
"Jeffery, I've been involved in a few face to face, passionate debates in my lifetime, and at the end of all the words, we saw we were both arguing to make the same point, but from a different angle or perspective."
 
It's important to do so. There are very few issues with a single side.
 
"What Stone Eater wrote yesterday makes sense to me, but in case you missed it here it is;"
 
I replied to it up thread but in essence, this is what I said. All militaries have contingency plans for a lot of different situations. I agree that the Bush Administration took advantage of 9-11 to put those contingencies in place but I disagree that they had anything to do with 9-11.
 
Stone also linked back to this:
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=24369
 
I've seen this website before, I'll not comment about here but I always find talk of "Holocausts of Yore" amusing. There is never any context to what was going on at the time. I also think it's funny that people use random newspaper articles to make their point.
 
"Palestinian Youth have to live under the brutal Israeli Military Dictatorship in place since before they were born. With that hopelessness of ever getting out from under the Israeli boot, they opt for suicide by the IDF approaching a check point with a pencil, scissors, or other shiny object pointed at the troops knowing they will be shot DEAD, not disabled."
 
Ray, not sure what you want me to say about this....so, the IDF soldiers are supposed to know that these are disturbed kids and they don't mean harm? What do you think a soldier's reaction is going to be when approached by someone holding something at them?
If there's something else you want to talk about separate from your above comment.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 11:05am
Opher
 
Yep, sorry. My reply was to Jeffrey. But let me read the rest in between....
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 11:10am
Jeffrey
 
The Western world's obsession with oil clashes with a large percentage of the Muslim world's desire to be left alone.  There are competing forces at work here, this where wars start.  
 
Agree. The problem is that the indigenous people in those countries never figured that there's oil and what it can be used for....and now.....see ? Who owns it ? The ones who found out that it exists or the ones who sat on it not knowing ?
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 11:13am
Ray
 
Thanks. Kahlil Gibran ? Never heard. I'll check that. But you know: When it comes to religion, I'm out LOL
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 11:19am
Jeffrey
 
I also think it's funny that people use random newspaper articles to make their point.
 
Ah-huh. And what about today ? They can't even READ a newspaper article of more that 140 letters ;-)
 
I don't BELIEVE that stuff, it's long time ago. But when something fits into an agenda which is visible during a long period of time, and followed it, it becomes plausible.
 
As I said: John Doe or Ali Faisal or Hans Meier think short-term. Others do not, especially the ones who have far-reaching goals and the cash to realize it.
 
Why did medieval kings across Europe marry amongst each other ? To secure terrain and - if possible - have more influence and power abroad.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 11:27am
Ray
 
The truly great man is the one who does not rule anyone and is ruled by no one
 
- Khalil Gibran
 
I can fully agree on that.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 11:30am
BTW; That's what I've tried to do all my life. Mostly it worked. That's why I live very modestly LOL. But I'm a free man. Not because I have money but because the world has become my home.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 6, 2017 - 11:37am
S-E a few more Gibran quotes
 
I also learned freedom by controlling material appetites!
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 11:42am
Ray
 
Impressive guy. I never had a material appetite since I can remember. I bought life time out of money.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 11:43am
@SEF:
"Jeffrey

The Western world's obsession with oil clashes with a large percentage of the Muslim world's desire to be left alone. There are competing forces at work here, this where wars start.

Agree. The problem is that the indigenous people in those countries never figured that there's oil and what it can be used for....and now.....see ? Who owns it ? The ones who found out that it exists or the ones who sat on it not knowing ?"
 
Right now whoever is sitting on it is the one who owns it.  The issue then becomes who wants it.  The developed and the developing world purchase that oil and do not want a disruption in that supply.  Otherwise they simply wouldn't care what happened in the region.
 
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 11:49am
...I mean LIFE. Time is money, and time spent on LIFE is never wasted. At least my daughter asks me:
 
"Papa, you know so much. Where did you get the time to get all that knowledge ?"
 
"Because I didn't work all my life 9to5. That's why we don't have a house of our own, a car and lots of gadgets. But you will have a house on the beach one day in Africa, where your mother comes from."
 
"Wow ! Then I come for vacation !"
 
"Sigh" LOL
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 11:53am
@SEF
"Jeffrey

I also think it's funny that people use random newspaper articles to make their point.

Ah-huh. And what about today ? They can't even READ a newspaper article of more that 140 letters ;-)"
 
Yup, LOL.  

"I don't BELIEVE that stuff, it's long time ago. But when something fits into an agenda which is visible during a long period of time, and followed it, it becomes plausible."
 
Yes, but, who and what's agenda?

"As I said: John Doe or Ali Faisal or Hans Meier think short-term. Others do not, especially the ones who have far-reaching goals and the cash to realize it."
 
You are drifting into a nebulous territory here.  

"Why did medieval kings across Europe marry amongst each other ? To secure terrain and - if possible - have more influence and power abroad."
 
In the end that came to nothing.  Europe looks nothing it 1,000 years ago, 500, years ago, 100 years ago, hell, 25 years ago.  
 
We've seen the fall of empires and kings, the rise and fall of both Fascism and Communism and so on.  Long-term plans mean nothing, no one or group of people can know or influence plans across the centuries, decades or years.  Humans can't and don't operate like that, self-interest comes into play and outside forces disrupt well-made plans.
 
Stone, I know too much history accept some sort of well-ordered plan for us all, it simply doesn't work that way.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 1:36pm
Jeffrey
 
I know enough history too and I don't have the time to cut'n'paste all that stuff, it would take me ages from Pippin to Fugger.
 
But I think that the feudal system lives on - by the influence of the Brits to the USA (common wealth LOL) to the Jewish community in either place from Amshel to today's financiers.
 
Kings and Queen's powers have been replaced by banks and corporations. What the pope and the kings were in medieval ages is now the BIS (Bank of International Settlements).
 
Decentralization.....Globalism LOL
EXPAT Added Oct 6, 2017 - 1:49pm
Autumn commented on my post that I need to comment more to post. So here it is!
You are a total ASS Kelly, and I can't believe a dozen MORONS 'LIKED' this shit!
There, happy Autumn?
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 2:03pm
@ Expat:
"Autumn commented on my post that I need to comment more to post. So here it is!
You are a total ASS Kelly, and I can't believe a dozen MORONS 'LIKED' this shit!
There, happy Autumn?"
 
Wow, that's just brilliant and inciteful, Expat.  So, let's see:
 
"You are a total ASS Kelly, and I can't believe a dozen MORONS "LIKED" this shit!"
 
Hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmm......
Well, no explanation on why I'm an ass.  I've read over it a couple of times, don't see any real valid criticism, just that I'm an ass.
 
Well, perhaps I'll just head over to Expat's article and see why I'm an ass.
 
Pardon me.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 3:29pm
Oh, well, while I wait for Expat to come back and explain what he meant, I'll answer Stone.
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 3:32pm
The flip side to that is any occupying power is under obligation to keep the peace and defend itself.  There are two sides to that coin, John.  There is always a reaction to any action.
Rogue State: Israeli Violations of U.N. Security Council Resolutions
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 3:34pm
I am a liberal, John, thanks for acknowledging that.
I don't know whether liberals or fascists disgust me more these days. At least the fascists tend to be upfront about what they are.
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 3:40pm
Under international law an occupying power is responsible for the well being of the civilians under occupation.
Which is why 'Israel' will never declare its borders.
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 3:41pm
And why they 'withdrew' from Gaza, but retained complete control of it.
It's a sham.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 3:55pm
@SEF:
"Jeffrey



But I think that the feudal system lives on - by the influence of the Brits to the USA (common wealth LOL)"
 
There hasn't been a feudal system in Britain in a long time.  That didn't really make it to the US,  there was indentured servitude but that was only for short periods, once the servitude ended the person was free to go.  The last country I believe to drop feudalism was the Russian Empire, sometime in the mid-1900's, I can't remember the exact date.
 
"to the Jewish community in either place from Amshel to today's financiers."
 
A bit obscure, can you explain that?

"Kings and Queen's powers have been replaced by banks and corporations. What the pope and the kings were in medieval ages is now the BIS (Bank of International Settlements)."
 
The BIS has a very checkered past.



Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 4:04pm
@John G
"The flip side to that is any occupying power is under obligation to keep the peace and defend itself. There are two sides to that coin, John. There is always a reaction to any action.
Rogue State: Israeli Violations of U.N. Security Council Resolutions"
 
Absolutely fascinating, John, but you couldn't find anything more up to date?
 
But I can see why you want to commit genocide against the Israeli people.

John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 3:34pm
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"I am a liberal, John, thanks for acknowledging that.
I don't know whether liberals or fascists disgust me more these days. At least the fascists tend to be upfront about what they are."
 
IKR?  I mean, that's why you agree with Fascists like the Nazis because you want to murder every living Jew you can get your hands on.

John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 3:40pm
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Under international law an occupying power is responsible for the well being of the civilians under occupation.
Which is why 'Israel' will never declare its borders."
 
Well, Jews are clever people.  I know that's why you want all of them dead.

John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 3:41pm
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And why they 'withdrew' from Gaza, but retained complete control of it.
It's a sham."
 
Yes, I know, kill'em all and let God sort'em out, right, John?
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 4:14pm
In hasbara-world, people are taught to determine right facts about Israel, selectively, and to discredit, then suppress all the other ones. They are taught that there is one right interpretation of facts. Bottom lines can’t be criticized at all, such as Israel’s designation as Zionist.
What is a fact, anyway? In this approach, the test is not empirical, but the other way around: if it’s good for Israel, it’s a fact. If not, it must wrong.
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 4:18pm
you want to commit genocide against the Israeli people.
you want to murder every living Jew you can get your hands on.
you want all of them dead.
 kill'em all and let God sort'em out, right, John?
That's all you've got?
You're the justifier of violence and repression here, Dorothy.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 4:36pm
@John G
 
"In hasbara-world,"
 
Is that like Disneyworld?
 
"people are taught to determine right facts about Israel, selectively, and to discredit, then suppress all the other ones. They are taught that there is one right interpretation of facts. Bottom lines can’t be criticized at all, such as Israel’s designation as Zionist."
 
That's a really boring fucking amusement park, John.  Why would anyone want to go there?
 

"What is a fact, anyway?"
 
Why are we here?  What is the meaning of life?  Did I forget to turn the dryer on this morning?
 
All of these questions are essential, John.
 
"In this approach, the test is not empirical,"
 
Is this a spelling test?
 
"but the other way around:"
 
Round and round and round, we got the beat....Goddamn you, John, now I've got that fucking song in my head.  Thanks a lot.
 
"if it’s good for Israel, it’s a fact. If not, it must wrong."
 
Is it live?  Or is it Memorex?
 
Wow, showing my age now.
 
 
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 4:43pm
Make ‘hasbara’ a household word
 
But there’s a lot more to hasbara than that, and the practice deserves to be scrutinized. Hasbara, which comes from Hebrew for “explaining,” has come to mean chiefly propaganda: concerted and tireless efforts to pressure newspapers and governments whenever they say a word in favor of Palestinians or Arabs, efforts to swarm websites that make the same mistake. The activity is concerted, organized, and subsidized; and the organized component is partly concealed. Anyone who’s seen the regular shift changes in commenters at this site knows what I’m talking about.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 5:28pm
@John G:
"you want to commit genocide against the Israeli people.
you want to murder every living Jew you can get your hands on.
you want all of them dead.
kill'em all and let God sort'em out, right, John?
That's all you've got?
You're the justifier of violence and repression here, Dorothy."
 
Well, you've yet to really express what you want to do with Israel, John.
 
What would you do with them?
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 5:28pm
"to the Jewish community in either place from Amshel to today's financiers."
 
A bit obscure, can you explain that?
 
Not obscure. Check out who rules the financial system. Not Olo Ubuzu from Botswana or Hans Meier from Austria. Check names. Anything from Greenspan (Grünspan) or Spielberg to Zuckerberg or Streisand (Streusand) to whatever helps.
 
Of course there are exceptions, see Bob Dylan alias Robert Zimmermann. Take the old Bush gang from Horowitz to Rove. But the main focus should be on those...
 
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constellis
 
First military...
 
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/constellis-group-to-merge-with-olive-group-300079518.html
 
...and now they try to "broaden their portfolio". Mafia, that's all. Legalized and approved by Tweetie and before 0bama, and before the new-born Texan alcoholic Bush.
 
Burp LOL
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 5:34pm
BTW: You might know Rothschild. It's a common name by now in the net, but worth following the history of that clan. They are pretty in the dark, and that's why they didn't end up like the Kennedys, the Bushes, the Rockefellers or other influential clans.
 
Such people tell the Orange Twat what to twit. You might have seen his change in policy before election and after.
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 5:39pm
Well, you've yet to really express what you want to do with Israel, John.
 
What would you do with them?
This is the problem when you make no effort to read or comprehend the other's position, Kelly.
In your haste to fling absurd abuse and unsupported allegations of 'antisemitism' you completely missed that I stated my position.
And that position doesn't involve any genocide or even mass murder.
Genocide and mass murder is your invention in lieu of a rational, equitable position. Your 'concern' for Palestinians is fake.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 5:48pm
@John G:
"newspapers and governments whenever they say a word in favor of Palestinians or Arabs, efforts to swarm websites that make the same mistake."
 
Hey, John, if you actually look at what I write about and frankly pay a little more attention, you'll note that I write about history, racism and politics.  Israel hardly factors into that and only when you jump in.  You wrote on one of my articles first and brought up Israel and Palestine, not me.  I naively thought that you wanted an honest dialogue so I gave you my honest opinion.  Silly me, because you are an intolerant little ideologue.  So, I gave an honest opinion and therein followed some of the wildest accusations I have ever seen.
 
Why am I here?  Because Autumn extended an invitation to a Holocaust denier that I was following.  Intrigued, I came here, found ol' Billy, Tom and Doug Plumb and wrote some articles to combat their stupidity.  That's all.  I do rather enjoy the style, it's different than the forums I belong to.  That's why I stayed.
 
Naturally you'll just post more hasbara shit and ignore what I am saying because you are an intolerant ideologue.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 5:52pm
@John G

"This is the problem when you make no effort to read or comprehend the other's position, Kelly.
In your haste to fling absurd abuse and unsupported allegations of 'antisemitism' you completely missed that I stated my position."
 
State it again.
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 5:59pm
I naively thought that you wanted an honest dialogue 
I'd love to hear an honest 'dialogue' from you. I don't see any evidence that honesty is in your repertoire. 
so I gave you my honest opinion. 
Which was the usual US establishment position, that amounts to having no position that will alter the status quo.
Which I disagreed with.
You immediately stooped to smearing me by using the 'antisemite' epithet.
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 6:05pm
State it again.
So you can dismiss it out of hand again?
I think it's more instructive watching you run through your hasbara bag of tricks and fail epically. 
You know two fifths of fuck all about Palestine or the Middle East. And less about the geopolitics involved.
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 6:09pm
you are an intolerant ideologue.
Care to specify what this ideology you imagine entails?
I'm intrigued. Although I do rather suspect that it is just another attempted epithet.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 7:06pm
For those who are curious, this was the second interaction John and I had, the one where John first brings up Palestine-Israel.  Keep in mind, the actual article had nothing to do with either, it was about did the Jews declare war on Nazi Germany:
 
"@John G:
"Do you have anything to say about the plight of the Palestinians? That's happening right now.
Nobody in their right mind will defend Billy the nazi.
But what will you defend?"

Yes, I do.
Israel as a nation state has the right to exist and defend itself.
However, I have no sympathy for their claims on the West Bank, the settlements are illegal and Israel needs to vacate the West Bank and accept the two state solution.
Jerusalem needs to be divided into Israeli/Palestinian sections. No, I don't think the US needs to move its embassy there.
Israel needs to understand that what happened to the Jews during WW II does not justify its current misdeeds in regards to the Palestinian people.

Billy Roper Added May 29, 2017 - 11:07am
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Well, that's an honorable position to have, at least. I also support a two state solution, there, and here.

Jeffrey Kelly Added May 29, 2017 - 11:33am
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Sorry, not gonna happen.

John G Added May 29, 2017 - 2:02pm
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The right to exist?

Jeffrey Kelly Added May 29, 2017 - 2:06pm
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No, Billy's need for a two state solution in the US.

John G Added May 29, 2017 - 2:40pm
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Why does 'Israel' have this 'right to exist'? Exist as what, where and by what writ? And for who?
What other state demands a right to exist.

Jeffrey Kelly Added May 29, 2017 - 2:53pm
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John G:
"Why does 'Israel' have this 'right to exist'? Exist as what, where and by what writ? And for who?
What other state demands a right to exist."

Are you saying that they don't have the right to exist? What do you suggest, that they be destroyed and finish what Hitler started?

John G Added May 29, 2017 - 2:56pm
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Don't try that bullshit on me, sunshine. Israel is a legal construct, not people.
Answer the questions."
 
Now, John actually showed up on my first article but didn't bring up Israel-Palestine.
 
Now, I honestly didn't get what John was aiming for.  I gave him my solution, I didn't curse.
 
Now, he did piss me off with that crap, so:
"
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 29, 2017 - 3:09pm
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@John G
"Don't try that bullshit on me, sunshine."
Blow me, douchebag.

"Israel is a legal construct, not people.
Answer the questions."

I'm not at your beck and call. If you don't like it go piss up a rope.
Naturally I mean that with all due respect."
 
Granted, perhaps not the best reply but, still, I sure as hell didn't start with the rude crap.
 
http://writerbeat.com/articles/16624-Did-Jews-Declare-War-on-Nazi-Germany-Denier-meme-2
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 7:09pm
Cont...

"John G Added May 29, 2017 - 6:11pm
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Typical hasbara troll sinks to insults when the going gets tough.
Low life Zionist."
 
This is where John decided I was a Zionist and hasbara troll.
 
 
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 7:10pm
Cont...
"

Jeffrey Kelly Added May 29, 2017 - 8:48pm
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@John G
"Typical hasbara"

Isn't that some sort of meal on Star Trek?

"troll"

Takes one to know one, right?

"sinks to insults when the going gets tough."

Oh, gee, sorry to hurt your feelings, ❄️.
"Low life Zionist."

Yeah, a real Zionist:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26670&start=280

What part of "I believe in a two-state solution and I want Israel to evacuate the West Bank" do you not understand, John? Are you as dense as Billy?


John G Added May 29, 2017 - 8:59pm
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You could have answered the questions. But you went the smear tactic route.
The two state solution is a propaganda narrative. Always has been.

Jeffrey Kelly Added May 29, 2017 - 9:20pm
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@John G:
"You could have answered the questions. But you went the smear tactic route.
The two state solution is a propaganda narrative. Always has been."

What do you suggest, John? Are you saying that all the Jews need to bug out?

Here's the thing:
Israel exists. Period. It needs to cooperate with helping find solutions to settle things down in the region. A couple of ways to do this is to evacuate the West Bank and cooperate with the setting up an independent Palestine.

I think Netanyahu is an ass. However, I don't have any political power of my own so if you are looking for me to fix things I can't. I can vote for those that want to fix things but even they can't force Israel to do anything. Now, one thing the US can do is withhold aid....but this requires a bipartisan effort that I don't think will ever happen.

Another thing, John:
I know what a "hasbara" is. I've had Holocaust deniers call me that for a couple of years...when they aren't busy calling me a "Jew" (I'm not, my parents raised me as Roman Catholic) or calling me a "Jewish shill." Now, there's nothing wrong with being a Jew...except when it's being used as an insult. So, when you call me a hasbara it causes me to immediately class you as no better than a denier. Please keep that in mind. As you can tell I have no respect for the breed.
 

John G Added May 30, 2017 - 2:16am
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What do you suggest, John? Are you saying that all the Jews need to bug out?
I've said nothing that would give cause to think that.
You clearly have no idea of what 'hasbara' means and you have no right to attempt to smear me.

Jeffrey Kelly Added May 30, 2017 - 5:30am
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@John G
"What do you suggest, John? Are you saying that all the Jews need to bug out?

"I've said nothing that would give cause to think that."

Really? Then what do you think should happen?
"You clearly have no idea of what 'hasbara' "

It's (allegedly) someone who is paid to spread Israeli propaganda on-line. This includes someone who is paid to go after Holocaust deniers on-line.

"means and you have no right to attempt to smear me."

Good grief, John. Get over it.
 
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 7:23pm
You've just provided more evidence that when challenged you resort to ad hominem, smearing and bullying rather than attempt to back up your (off the shelf) opinions.
In this thread it only took one word i.e. Gaza, to set you off on your pro-Zionist ranting.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 7:31pm
@John G.
"I naively thought that you wanted an honest dialogue
I'd love to hear an honest 'dialogue' from you. I don't see any evidence that honesty is in your repertoire."
 
No, your problem, John, is that you are intolerant and inflexible.  You are incapable of dealing with anyone who disagrees with you.

"so I gave you my honest opinion.
Which was the usual US establishment position, that amounts to having no position that will alter the status quo."
 
Well, having a Palestinian state would alter the status quo, don't you think?
 
"Which I disagreed with.
You immediately stooped to smearing me by using the 'antisemite' epithet."
 
Nope.  I posted our first conversation about this, John.  See above.

John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 6:05pm
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"State it again.
So you can dismiss it out of hand again?
I think it's more instructive watching you run through your hasbara bag of tricks and fail epically."
 
Do you even have a position, John?  Other than wanting Israel to disappear?  Permanently?
State your position, John.  Failure to do so will be an admission on your part you don't have one.
 
"You know two fifths of fuck all about Palestine or the Middle East. And less about the geopolitics involved."
 
Well, no one knows if you do, John.  You won't tell us.

John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 6:09pm
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"you are an intolerant ideologue.
Care to specify what this ideology you imagine entails?
I'm intrigued. Although I do rather suspect that it is just another attempted epithet."
 
Sure.  I'd categorize you as a half-assed leftist, filled with hate towards the US and Israel.  It's not full-blown Communism or Marxism, it's unformed and nebulous, based more upon your dislikes and hatreds.  I'm basing this solely on your comments, not on your articles.  I did read one, the Jobs Guarrantee one, which I actually agreed with.
 
In any case, you remind me of different leftists I've known.  They were like you, intolerant and judgmental and exceptionally unpleasant to be with.  Most of them harbored a hatred of Israel, just like you and they expressed a solidarity with the Palestinian people.  It was easy for them to do so because they didn't interact with them on a personal level.  They expressed a distrust of governments, particularly the US government and felt the US government was attempting genocide in many different areas of the planet.  Just like you.  Many of them were full blown conspiracy theorists, just like you.  
 
Its not a formal movement by any means and I'd hardly name you an organized party.  But, you share the same characteristics of those same leftists who annoyed the hell out of me in college and on the internet.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 7:36pm
Jeffrey
 
It needs to cooperate with helping find solutions to settle things down in the region. A couple of ways to do this is to evacuate the West Bank and cooperate with the setting up an independent Palestine.
 
A country which has the plan to expand doesn't give a shit about cooperation. Only when the US motherland orders them to. That's the reality. Without the cash that the US shoves up their ass they'd be fucked. And with that cash one could develop the whole of Africa. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for Israel and their "policy" at all. Just a note: I'm not talking of the regular Avi. I talk of hoodlums like NetanYahoo.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 7:38pm
@John G:
"You've just provided more evidence that when challenged you resort to ad hominem, smearing and bullying rather than attempt to back up your (off the shelf) opinions."
 
No, John, I'm simply sick of your shit.  

"In this thread it only took one word i.e. Gaza, to set you off on your pro-Zionist ranting."
 
Actually, John, when you said "Gaza" I said "turtles."
 
See:

John G Added Oct 3, 2017 - 6:06pm
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Gaza.

Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 6:41pm
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Turtles.

John G Added Oct 3, 2017 - 7:00pm
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Israel Is Committing Genocide in the Gaza Ghetto
By Ilan Pappé / Electronic Intifada




Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 7:28pm
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I don't know about everyone else but I enjoy John taking every opportunity to bash Israel on completely unrelated posts.



John G Added Oct 3, 2017 - 8:03pm
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Right, because Gaza isn't a ghetto in Kelly world. Obtuse arse.

Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 3, 2017 - 8:51pm
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Jeffery, glad you followed through with this post even though it's unlikely white trash will see it.

I do agree with John. Gaza is an Israeli controlled Ghetto like the Warsaw Ghetto was in a different place and Time.

John G Added Oct 3, 2017 - 8:59pm
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Amusing that the libberdeee!!!!! yappers are the same people as tell us that the cops are right to shoot people for not obeying their orders. Whether or not those orders are right or legal.

Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 3, 2017 - 9:02pm
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I'd feel more inclined to listen to what John says if he'd write his own article about it instead of cluttering up my post.

I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. I oppose Israeli policies but John's problem is that he can't accept that. I recognize the problems but John seems to think that if you don't accept his point of view you are a racist, hasbara troll."
 
Hhhhhhhmmmmm, no pro-Zionist ranting.....
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 7:42pm
BTW: The time when someone can show up and carve out a country out of nowhere should be over by now. The fact that this creates problems should be clear by now to any neocolonist idiot.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 7:45pm
BTW2: 2000 year old scriptures gives no one an argument to justify such. If that's the case, I demand that my tibe, the Helvetians, get their country back up to Bavaria LOL
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 7:46pm
tribe, not tibe. Damn keyboard.....
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 6, 2017 - 7:51pm
BTW3:
 
When Israel is so fond of their country, and seeing their own history, they should be the first supporters of the Kurds, the Scots, the Catalans, the Basques, the Armenians.....
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 8:04pm
Well, having a Palestinian state would alter the status quo, don't you think?
The "2 state solution" dance is not about creating a Palestinian state. It is a charade entirely for western propaganda purposes.
Do you even have a position, John? 
Yes I do. I stated it above. Your condescending response was "That'[s nice".
There is no 2 state solution so clearly a single state of Palestine has to be the goal. 
I'm sorry that no genocide is involved but, unlike you, I don't believe in killing.
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 8:06pm
I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. I oppose Israeli policies
Your problem, like many liberals (I have the same problem with Opher Goodwin's blathering) is that you think that typing these bland platitudes gets you off the hook for justifying your overtly unjust and biased views.
They don't. They just make you a bigger hypocrite.
John Minehan Added Oct 6, 2017 - 8:14pm
Would that "single state of Palestine" be a secular state open to a Jewish right of return?
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 8:21pm
 open to a Jewish right of return
For whom?
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 8:23pm
And before you go any further, I have no right to any say in what the citizens of Palestine would decide for themselves.
I know your game, Minehan.
John Minehan Added Oct 6, 2017 - 8:56pm
" open to a Jewish right of return
For whom?"
 
The answer is similar to the one to "Who is buried in Grant's tomb?" 
John Minehan Added Oct 6, 2017 - 8:58pm
"And before you go any further, I have no right to any say in what the citizens of Palestine would decide for themselves.
I know your game, Minehan."
 
. . . and who are those citizens?
 
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 9:24pm
@John G.
"Well, having a Palestinian state would alter the status quo, don't you think?
The "2 state solution" dance is not about creating a Palestinian state."
 
Um, well, I advocate for a Palestinian state and an Israel.  Two states, governed independently of each other.  I'm not sure where the disconnect is......
 
"It is a charade entirely for western propaganda purposes."
 
Really?
https://web.archive.org/web/20150510134721/http://unispal.un.org:80/UNISPAL.NSF/0/19862D03C564FA2C85257ACB004EE69B
I guess I know fuck all about it.
 
But, undoubtedly this is incredibly helpful and shows the willingness of Hamas to negotiate.  Do you know if this has changed, John?
"“There are controversial issues in the points that Abbas raised, and Hamas has the right to preserve its position over them,” said Salah al-Bardaweel, a spokesman for Hamas in Gaza, on Thursday.
We do not recognize Israel, nor the partition of Palestine, and Israel has no right in Palestine,” he added. “Getting our membership in the U.N. bodies is our natural right, but without giving up any inch of Palestine’s soil.”
 
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/11/30/world/middleeast/Palestinian-Authority-United-Nations-Israel.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0&referer=
 
 
"Do you even have a position, John?
Yes I do. I stated it above. Your condescending response was "That'[s nice".
There is no 2 state solution so clearly a single state of Palestine has to be the goal.
I'm sorry that no genocide is involved but, unlike you, I don't believe in killing."
 
So, you fully expect Israel to give up everything and peacefully subsume itself into a Palestinian state.
 
LOL, what a fucking loon.
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 9:25pm
Your style is like Kelly's. Slippery and dishonest.
Say what you mean without he bullshit.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 9:33pm
@John G
"I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. I oppose Israeli policies
Your problem, like many liberals (I have the same problem with Opher Goodwin's blathering) is that you think that typing these bland platitudes gets you off the hook for justifying your overtly unjust and biased views.
They don't. They just make you a bigger hypocrite."
 
Actually John, I look at this in a realistic fashion.  I know there is not a chance in hell that Israel will willingly give up their state without a fight.  So, the only way to get this done is to link a two-state solution with guarantees over Israel's borders, probably linked with either a bilateral treaty with the United States or Israel's full inclusion into NATO, thereby guaranteeing any attack on Israel be met with immediate assistance of the US or NATO.
 
What I would do is link that with Israel's compliance with the amount of aid it would get, up to and including the cessation of any aid until Israel complies and link any future aid and tying those treaties with Israel's guarantees of Palestine's borders.  Any failure to do so would result in the loss of aid and the cancellation of treaties guaranteeing Israel's borders.
 
That's what I would do, John.  Unfortunately I don't have that power.
John Minehan Added Oct 6, 2017 - 9:33pm
"So, you fully expect Israel to give up everything and peacefully subsume itself into a Palestinian state."
 
I honestly don't think he is considering giving them that option.
  
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 9:37pm
That's just platitudes Kelly. The US is not an honest broker.
Your 'solution' is just a dodge that allows the zionists to continue the genocide and the erasure of Palestine.
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 9:38pm
I honestly don't think he is considering giving them that option.
You have no idea what I think, army boy.
John Minehan Added Oct 6, 2017 - 9:38pm
"I hear your daily cries
in the far-off byways in your mouth
pointing north and south
and my Calvary looms again,
desperate in rebirth.
Your earth is partitioned,
but in contrition
it is the partition
in your hearts that you must abolish"----Richard Harris
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 9:41pm
So, you fully expect Israel to give up everything and peacefully subsume itself into a Palestinian state.
 
LOL, what a fucking loon.
Look you moron, what do you think 'Palestinian stae' means?
It doesn't mean exclusive of jews you utter fuck knuckle.
You are so utterly ethno-centric that you cannot conceive of jews living as equals (only) of Arabs.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 10:12pm
@John G
"So, you fully expect Israel to give up everything and peacefully subsume itself into a Palestinian state.

"LOL, what a fucking loon.
Look you moron, what do you think 'Palestinian stae' means?"
 
Did you mean "state?"  Cause I don't know what you mean by "stae."

"It doesn't mean exclusive of jews you utter fuck knuckle."
 
That's different.

"You are so utterly ethno-centric"
 
Well, at least you didn't call me a racist.  That's growth, John.
 
"that you cannot conceive of jews living as equals (only) of Arabs."
 
No, what I'm saying is that Israel will not willingly give up its independence as a sovereign nation.  No nation willingly does so, it takes wars to accomplish that sort of thing.  So, to force such a thing on Israel would require a war, a war, BTW, with a nuclear power.  That only opens up ghastly possibilities.  
 
So, it doesn't matter about my "ethno-centric" attitude (so, what exactly does that mean, John?).  It only matters what Israel would do if threatened.  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 6, 2017 - 10:14pm
@John Minehan:
""So, you fully expect Israel to give up everything and peacefully subsume itself into a Palestinian state."

I honestly don't think he is considering giving them that option."
 
I'm trying to figure out how John thinks he can make it happen.
 
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 10:17pm
Did you mean "state?"  Cause I don't know what you mean by "stae."
Really? This is the level of debate you are capable of?
Just another way of dodging.
It only matters what Israel would do if threatened.  
What is Israel that gives it these super duper powers?
How did it enter existence? By divine intervention?
The USA forcefully overthrows states with monotonous regularity. So what's your point exactly?
 
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 10:21pm
Well, at least you didn't call me a racist.  That's growth, John.
Even by zionist troll standards, you are an astonishing hypocrite
John Minehan Added Oct 6, 2017 - 10:28pm
No, Jeff.  He's NOT talking about giving them the option.
 
"What is Israel that gives it these super duper powers?"
 
How about "possessing Special Weapons," gaon?
 
John, it takes a special gift to advocate genocide against a nuclear power, where they take every kid who completes Basic to Masada, where they see how their forbearers fought to the death rather than surrender back when they were NOT a nuclear power.
 
Ever read about the Yom Kippur War back in '73?   
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 10:30pm
Nobody is advocating genocide, you knuckle dragging military buffoon.
John Minehan Added Oct 6, 2017 - 10:38pm
"It only matters what Israel would do if threatened.  
What is Israel that gives it these super duper powers?
How did it enter existence? By divine intervention?
The USA forcefully overthrows states with monotonous regularity. So what's your point exactly?"
 
No, John that is exactly what you are advocating and that is exactly what it would take. 
John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 10:45pm
No, John that is exactly what you are advocating
Wtf are you talking about, clown?
John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 12:32am
One wonders whether Kelly and Minehan are Nakba deniers like a number of the other zionist shills here.
Some of them even deny the existence of Palestinians as a people.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 2:13am
@John G
"Did you mean "state?" Cause I don't know what you mean by "stae."
Really? This is the level of debate you are capable of?"
 
I'm just fuckin' with you, John.  Christ, look up "sense of humor."  Lord knows you could use it.

"Just another way of dodging."
 
Nah, I'm just getting bored.  I needed to do something to keep this fresh.
 
"It only matters what Israel would do if threatened.
What is Israel that gives it these super duper powers?"
 
Let's see, John.  Israel has a fully functioning modern army that has proved time and again they are more than a match for the other powers in the region.  That's a given.  They also possess nuclear weapons.
 
So, in order to force Israel to give up being the Jewish Homeland you'd need to break that army and at the same time prevent the use of her nuclear weapons. Very hard to do, John.  
 
I don't know why this is even a consideration.
 
"How did it enter existence? By divine intervention?"
 
Now you are just being goofy.
 
"The USA forcefully overthrows states with monotonous regularity. So what's your point exactly?"
 
You want the US to participate in the formation of a Palestinian state that includes the destruction of Israel?
I'm going to just go with no and leave it at that.


"John G Added Oct 6, 2017 - 10:21pm
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Well, at least you didn't call me a racist. That's growth, John.
Even by zionist troll standards, you are an astonishing hypocrite"
 
Hey.  Take the compliment.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 2:15am
@John G:
"One wonders whether Kelly and Minehan are Nakba deniers like a number of the other zionist shills here."
 
WTF is a "Nakba denier?"  


John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 2:22am
You want the US to participate in the formation of a Palestinian state that includes the destruction of Israel?
What does the 'destruction of Israel' mean?
Enough of the melodramatics.
John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 2:24am
"How did it enter existence? By divine intervention?"
 
Now you are just being goofy.
And once again you avoid the point.
You're a slime.
John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 2:34am
the Jewish Homeland 
What does that mean?
John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 2:40am
WTF is a "Nakba denier?"  
Clearly you are one. Ironic considering your usual schtick.
Simply Jews Added Oct 7, 2017 - 5:22am
"The 1948 Palestinian exodus, also known as the Nakba, occurred when more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from their homes, during the 1948 Palestine war. "
 
The number of those who fled vs the number of expelled is debated, but definitely a part of those were expelled. The others left, told by their leader that the war will be over soon, the Jews will be done with and they will be able to return.
 
Of course, these days Nakba is presented as the Arab version of Holocaust. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 9:12am
Thank you, Simply Jews.  John likes to accuse me of being things he refuses to define.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 9:24am
@John G
"You want the US to participate in the formation of a Palestinian state that includes the destruction of Israel?
What does the 'destruction of Israel' mean?
Enough of the melodramatics."
 
John, you want the formation of a Palestine, a single state.  In order to do that you have to get the Israelis to give up being a sovereign state.  How do you propose to get them to do that?


John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 2:24am
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"How did it enter existence? By divine intervention?"

"Now you are just being goofy.
And once again you avoid the point.
You're a slime."
 
I will accede to John's request and give him a link describing the creation of the state of Israel:
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel
 
Apparently he doesn't know.

John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 2:34am
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the Jewish Homeland
What does that mean?"
 
It's where Jews call their homeland.  Holy crap, do I have to explain everything to you?

John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 2:40am
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"WTF is a "Nakba denier?"
Clearly you are one. Ironic considering your usual schtick."
 
I now know.  No thanks to you.
Simply Jews Added Oct 7, 2017 - 10:04am
As for the so called "one state solution", it is for many a supporter of BDS just a term for something entirely different. Here is Mr Abunimah, one of the drivers behind BDS.
 
He acknowledges that in a one-state solution “we couldn’t rule out some disastrous situation” (4:43) for Jews.
 
It should be clear when you here the popular "From the river to the sea" buzzword. 
 
 
Simply Jews Added Oct 7, 2017 - 10:04am
"hear", of course.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 7, 2017 - 12:49pm
Netanyahu proclaims 'there will never be a Palestinian State under his watch, and a one State solution, with EQUAL RIGHTS FOR JEWS AND PALESTINIANS, is off the table, because eventually, Israel will not be able to maintain the majority control in a Democratic State for both Jew and Arab. NOW Palestinians live under a brutal Military Dictatorship and Military Courts with NO CIVIL RIGHTS.
 
So Jeffery and Simply Jews, what do you suggest to break that DEADLOCK, that will only mean more dead people on both sides, most of them on the Palestinian side, as is so evident without question?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 1:54pm
Well, the key is having US politicians with balls who stand up and tell Israel "Your aid package is directly tied with you complying with UN Resolutions on the foundation of a separate Palestinian state."  Then guarantee both borders with appropriate treaties.
 
That's the only thing that will break this deadlock.  Israel will never accept a single state solution.  Never.  No sovereign nation willingly gives up its independence.  The flip side is will organizations like Hamas agree to an independent Israel and cease their terrorist activities.
 
I have yet to see any solutions from you, Ray.  What is your solution to stop the killing?
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 7, 2017 - 2:12pm
Your solution sounds nice theoretically, but American politicians bought by Israeli NCOs, are attempting to criminalize any talk or engagement in BDS Today.When does relief for Palestinians actually start.
Americans don't seem to recognize how UN American that is?
 
The hypocrisy of it all! Israel has placed EXTREME BDS on Gaza for the last 10 years. Israeli calls for more BDS on Iran and Syria.
 
But don't put mild BDS on us Jews, that's anti-Semitic! BS!
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 2:22pm
Ray, what is your solution to the problem?
Simply Jews Added Oct 7, 2017 - 2:42pm
@RJC,
 
I don't have a solution, somewhere in this thread I mentioned the missing ingredients for one.
 
As for "Israel has placed EXTREME BDS on Gaza for the last 10 years."
And the reasons for it? 
You obviously didn't relate in any way to the recent history of Gaza, starting with 2005. I thought I've provided some points on it for you.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 7, 2017 - 2:59pm
Let's take off the rose tinted glasses. Even though Israel is mostly secular these days, is a Nation built on the supremacy of a dominant religion. It is a recreation of the Bible after an absence of some 2800 years. Those are the simple True Facts.
 
Because of their material idols, the people of Israel Today have long forgot they were the oppressed ones in Europe so long ago, but think nothing of oppressing Palestinians Today who had nothing to do with the Jewish condition in Europe prior to WWII.
 
First of all, the "chosen people" of thousands of years ago are dead and gone.
God is choosing new chosen people who are alive all over this world TODAY, and not all of them are in temporal Israel.
 
You want my solution? Go forward with the fundamental Spiritual dimension of the 3 monotheistic religions.
Naturally the secularists will say that's impractical.
It takes Time for sure, but it grows one soul at a Time. But with mass communications these days. it could take less Time.
 
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
 
And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.
 
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 4:10pm
That's nice, Ray, but do you have a solution not grounded in scripture?
John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 4:31pm
 The others left, told by their leader that the war will be over soon, the Jews will be done with and they will be able to return.
This is 100% hasbara. aka a lie.
John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 4:35pm
This is what your 2 state solution has achieved.
Disappearing Palestine.
 
It's where Jews call their homeland. 
Who are 'the jews'?
And why do they get a homeland exclusive of others?
Why are they special? And why do the Palestinians have to be erased due to their specialness?
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 7, 2017 - 6:14pm
That's nice, Ray, but do you have a solution not grounded in scripture?
 
Entirely fitting Jeffery since Israel wouldn't exist if it wasn't for scripture.
John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 8:03pm
There are two principle fallacies in this argument:
One, it was not simply that Palestinians fled war. Many did flee, but this was encouraged by the Zionist forces, which also directly expelled many civilians from their homes and destroyed their villages so they could never return. It was the intent of the Zionists to ethnically cleanse Palestine of most of its Arab population in order for the demographically “Jewish state” of Israel to be established. Indeed, cleansing Palestine of Arabs was a prerequisite for this state to be created. This is why Israel refused to allow those refugees to return.
Two, this argument assumes that the Zionists’ unilateral declaration of the existence of Israel on May 14, 1948, was legitimate. It wasn’t. The Zionists had neither any legal nor moral authority to declare sovereignty over a land in which they were a minority and of which they owned only about 7 percent. While they cited UN Resolution 181 (the “partition plan” resolution) as granting such authority, in fact, this resolution neither partitioned Palestine nor conferred any legal authority to the Zionists for their unilateral declaration.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 9:11pm
"That's nice, Ray, but do you have a solution not grounded in scripture?

Entirely fitting Jeffery since Israel wouldn't exist if it wasn't for scripture."
 
I'm sort of a hard-headed, Ray.  I don't really care about scripture or prophecies.  I find them irrelevant.
 
Now, don't get me wrong.  I'm actually very tolerant of people's belief systems, I really don't care if someone is Christian, Jew, Muslim, Wiccan, whatever.  I just simply don't accept religious beliefs as arguments.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 9:31pm
@John G
"This is what your 2 state solution has achieved.
Disappearing Palestine."
 
WTF do you want me to do about it, John?  I've already told you what the solution is and it sure as hell isn't one happy, giant Palestinian State you advocate for.  It isn't practical and Israel will never accept it.  I suppose I could just whine, bitch and moan about on completely unrelated subjects on Writer's Beat like someone I know.  

"It's where Jews call their homeland.
Who are 'the jews'?"
 
Google is your friend, undoubtedly there are millions of articles, webpages and forums that discuss who the Jews are, their origins and their belief systems.  A lot of them have probably have comment sections, that'll give you new opportunities and new people you can bore the shit out of with your whining, bitching and moaning.

"And why do they get a homeland exclusive of others?"
 
Undoubtedly just to piss you off.  That's as good a reason as any.
 
"Why are they special?"
 
Their specialness is derived from the fact that this question makes you lie awake nights sobbing in your pillow.
 
"And why do the Palestinians have to be erased due to their specialness?"
 
Because it gives you a reason to whine, bitch and moan on completely unrelated subject on Writer's Beat.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 7, 2017 - 9:34pm
Jeffery, do you deny "Israel wouldn't exist if it wasn't for scripture?"
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 9:36pm
@John G:
"There are two principle fallacies in this argument:
 
I have two thoughts on what you posted:
 
1) I don't give a shit.
2) Who fucking cares.
John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 10:01pm
So once again, Kelly answers arguments and issues with a string of insults and dodges.
And this gem of hysterical irrationality....
 
WTF do you want me to do about it, John?  I've already told you what the solution is and it sure as hell isn't one happy, giant Palestinian State you advocate for.  It isn't practical and Israel will never accept it.  I suppose I could just whine, bitch and moan about on completely unrelated subjects on Writer's Beat like someone I know.  
 
What a study of right wing authoritarian illogic.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 10:04pm
@Ray Cormier:
 
"Jeffery, do you deny "Israel wouldn't exist if it wasn't for scripture?"
 
I think it's irrelevant.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 10:07pm
@John G
 
"So once again, Kelly answers arguments and issues with a string of insults and dodges."
 
Once again John G posts another comment guaranteed to bore the shit out of me.


"WTF do you want me to do about it, John? I've already told you what the solution is and it sure as hell isn't one happy, giant Palestinian State you advocate for. It isn't practical and Israel will never accept it. I suppose I could just whine, bitch and moan about on completely unrelated subjects on Writer's Beat like someone I know.

What a study of right wing authoritarian illogic."
 
What a study in boring the shit out of me.
John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 10:09pm
Google is your friend, undoubtedly there are millions of articles, webpages and forums that discuss who the Jews are, their origins and their belief systems.
The Invention of the Jewish People
 
So we're going to decide citizenship on Wikipedia entries now?
And just for this one country.
John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 10:11pm
What a study in boring the shit out of me.
What a drama queen you are.
All these histrionics because you can't deal with losing an argument.
Best stick to debating the dumb Nazis that are more in your intellectual neighbourhood, Priscilla.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 10:16pm
@John G
 
"Google is your friend, undoubtedly there are millions of articles, webpages and forums that discuss who the Jews are, their origins and their belief systems.
The Invention of the Jewish People

So we're going to decide citizenship on Wikipedia entries now?
And just for this one country."
 
Try harder, John.  Keep looking, I'm sure you'll find new forums and blogs to post comments on and bore the crap out of new people.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 10:23pm
@John G
"What a study in boring the shit out of me.
What a drama queen you are."
 
What a dull retard you are.

"All these histrionics because you can't deal with losing an argument."
 
What argument, John?  You're just rehashing the same old old shit and finding new ways of saying the same fucking thing you've been droning endlessly about.  

"Best stick to debating the dumb Nazis that are more in your intellectual neighbourhood, Priscilla."
 
I'll give them this much, John.  They at least admit to their antisemitism without trying to wrap it in psuedo-intellectual horse shit and spicing it up with crocodile tears for the Palestinians.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 7, 2017 - 10:25pm
John G is the new poster boy for Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.
John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 11:24pm
They at least admit to their antisemitism without trying to wrap it in psuedo-intellectual horse shit and spicing it up with crocodile tears for the Palestinians.
Ever been there, shit for brains?
You give the Nazis far more respect than I do, smeg breath.
Yelling 'antisemite' every 5 seconds doesn't disguise the fact that a) you have no argument deeper than your Democratic Party hasbara talking points and b) that your 'concern' for Palestinians is really concern trolling and your actual attitude is more islamophobic than not.
Your continued demonisation of Palestinians and double standards in treatment for each group betrays your innate racism.
John G Added Oct 7, 2017 - 11:27pm
Israeli F-16s pounding civilian areas, hospitals and UN shelters is 'sef defence'.
Palestinian kids with rocks against their oppressors' tanks and armor is terrorism for the Kellys of this world.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 7, 2017 - 11:51pm
"Jeffery, do you deny "Israel wouldn't exist if it wasn't for scripture?"
I think it's irrelevant.
Deny, Deflect, Hypocrite!
That's nice, Ray, but do you have a solution not grounded in scripture?
 
You have just moved me closer to John G's position and the fulfillment of this scripture:
These things say the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the Creation of God;
I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would you were cold or hot.
So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.

Revelation 3
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 12:31am
@John G
"They at least admit to their antisemitism without trying to wrap it in psuedo-intellectual horse shit and spicing it up with crocodile tears for the Palestinians.
Ever been there, shit for brains?"
 
Nope.  It's not exactly a vacation spot.

"You give the Nazis far more respect than I do, smeg breath."
 
That's funny.  

"Yelling 'antisemite' every 5 seconds"
 
I'm not yelling "antisemite."  THIS IS YELLING "ANTISEMITE!!!!!!!!!"
 
"doesn't disguise the fact that a) you have no argument deeper than your Democratic Party hasbara talking points"
 
I'm confused, I thought the whole "hasbara" thing was an Israel thingy, are you saying that the Democratic Party does the hasbara thingy too?  Are they the same, do they coordinate with each other?
 
"and b) that your 'concern' for Palestinians is really concern trolling"
 
What is "concern trolling?"
 
"and your actual attitude is more islamophobic than not."
 
Wow, just think, you saw through that article I wrote criticizing both antisemitism and Islamophobia.  
 
http://writerbeat.com/articles/17209-I-Don-t-Think-I-ll-Ever-Understand-it-and-I-m-Glad-I-Don-t-
 
I even said this:
"@Nancy Heard:
I'm sorry that you feel that way, Nancy.

The reality is that Islam has a long history of tolerance for other religions that stretches back to the Middle Ages. Back in the days of the early Caliphates Jews and Christians lived in relative peace in those Caliphates because Islam preaches tolerance. They paid higher taxes but that was it.

It's only as time went by that sections of Islam became radicalized....as a result of Western nations colonizing their lands and exploiting their resources. Some of the blame rests with Westerners, Nancy. Some of that blame extends to the creation of Israel.

Now, I will not excuse violence and I don't care if certain Muslims in this country want Sharia Law. If that's what they want then they can move to a Muslim country.

My original point still stands. Most Muslims prefer to live in peace, we only focus on the loud, angry minority that causes problems.

But, I'll remind you of this. Muslims aren't the only terrorists, Nancy. Remember Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing? White Christian man. Have you ever heard of the Lord's Resistance Army? Google them, Nancy. It's an eye opener. Dylan Roof ring any bells, what about the KKK? Do you know what the Phineas Brotherhood is, Nancy? Google them. Actually, you can just google "Christian terrorists" and get an eyeful. Google Christian militias and see what they are."
 
I guess you saw through that as well.  Good for you, John.
 
"Your continued demonisation of Palestinians and double standards in treatment for each group betrays your innate racism."
 
Didn't we already go over this?  I don't believe in races.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 12:36am
@Ray Cormier:
"You have just moved me closer to John G's position"
 
To be honest, Ray, I don't care if you join OCD boy's position on me.  It's irrelevant.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 12:37am
I'm not impressed by Bible babble, Ray.  No offense.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 8, 2017 - 12:41am
like the Biblical 'chosen people' Israel claims to be?'
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 12:51am
@John G
"Israeli F-16s pounding civilian areas, hospitals and UN shelters is 'sef defence'.
Palestinian kids with rocks against their oppressors' tanks and armor is terrorism for the Kellys of this world."
 
Unless you are on the receiving end, John.  They aren't just using rocks:
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/israel-palestine-deaths/
 
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 12:52am
@Ray Cormier:
"like the Biblical 'chosen people' Israel claims to be?'"
 
I don't know.  Nor do I care.
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 1:22am
Simply Jews Added Oct 8, 2017 - 2:24am
@RJC
 
"It is a recreation of the Bible after an absence of some 2800 years. Those are the simple True Facts.
First of all, the "chosen people" of thousands of years ago are dead and gone."


When your thesis starts with "First of all" premise, which appears to be incorrect, what is the total worth of the whole? You see, RJC, this absence you mention is a wrong premise (I don't call it an intentional lie, since I try to believe in your good intentions). The point is that Jews were never absent from Israel even during the worst periods. 
 
Try again.
 
As for the "chosen people" bullshit: try this.
Seriously - like many before you, you don't understand the meaning of this term, so do try to avoid using it.
 
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 2:35am
The Palestinians are the descendants of all the ancient peoples of the region. 
Rulers changed and religions changed is all. The biblical stories are myths.
Zionism is a European colonialist movement that always sought to expel the indigenous people from their land.
And that's what they've done.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 8, 2017 - 8:14am
Simply, satire is satire. Facts are facts.
 
According to the Jewish virtual Library, since the Roman expulsion, Jews were the minority in Palestine until the European invasion in 1948.
In 1517 Jews made up 1.7% of the inhabitants in Palestine. A year after the Balfour Declaration they made up 8.1%
In 1946 Jews made up only 30% of the residents of Palestine.
That changed to 80% after the 1948 invasion from Europe.
Simply Jews Added Oct 8, 2017 - 8:28am
@RJC
 
"Simply, satire is satire. Facts are facts."
 
And how do the numbers you quote prove that statement about so called "absence of some 2800 years"?
Percentage considered not sufficient to confirm presence?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 9:24am
@ John G:
"target="_blank">https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/israel-palestine-deaths/

LOLz."
 
Wow, John thinks Palestinians killing Israelis funny.  Looks like he's showing his true colors again.
Simply Jews Added Oct 8, 2017 - 9:58am
RJC,
 
Your way of debating leaves a lot of room for improvement.
"absence of some 2800 years" - remember how it started?
By the way, your count of years is wrong too. Look it up.
I have to switch off. 
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 8, 2017 - 9:59am
Israel as a kingdom/Nation disappeared some 2800 years ago until temporal Israel was recreated from Biblical scripture in 1948.
 
That is totally different from the fact there was always a minority of Jews living in Palestine.
 
When the European Christians were expelling Jews, the Islamic Empire welcomed them.
Jews and Arabs mostly lived in Peace together, until the Arabs slowly woke up to see the massive influx of Jews since the Zionist Conference in the late 1880s was leading to the full scale European Colonial invasion in 1948.
 
Rothschild money helped make that possible.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 10:41am
@Ray Cormier:
"Jews and Arabs mostly lived in Peace together, until the Arabs slowly woke up to see the massive influx of Jews since the Zionist Conference in the late 1880s was leading to the full scale European Colonial invasion in 1948."
 
So, did all those Jews just show up out of nowhere? Did anything cause this impetus to invade Palestine? Was every Jew a Zionist that spontaneously decided that it would be great to invade Palestine at this time period?
 
"Rothschild money helped make that possible."
 
See, whenever I see the words "Rothschild money" my conspiracy theory bullshit o'meter pegs.
 
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 8, 2017 - 11:17am
So, did all those Jews just show up out of nowhere?
No, they came from Europe mostly.
 
"Rothschild money helped make that possible."
 See, whenever I see the words "Rothschild money" my conspiracy theory bullshit o'meter pegs.
 
Like you, I really don't care if "your conspiracy theory bullshit o'meter pegs."
 

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917
Dear Lord Rothschild, (Do see that, Jeffery? Rothschild money)

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.
 
His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
 
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour
 
WWI wasn't over yet!
Having read the Balfour Declaration so many Times, I just noticed it was dated November 2, ALL SOULS DAY, the same date THE KANSAS CITY TIMES did the follow up to the September 13 record, choosing the header, Prophet Plans Appeal of Conviction which I'm still doing here.
 
The 247 year British Empire was coming to it's end just before WWII. Realizing they might have made a mistake with the Balfour Declaration, they tried to correct the mistaken suppositions with the 1939 White Paper which reads in part,
"It has been urged that the expression "a national home for the Jewish people" offered a prospect that Palestine might in due course become a Jewish State or Commonwealth.
His Majesty's Government do not wish to contest the view, which was expressed by the Royal Commission, that the Zionist leaders at the time of the issue of the Balfour Declaration recognised that an ultimate Jewish State was not precluded by the terms of the Declaration.
 
But, with the Royal Commission, His Majesty's Government believe that the framers of the Mandate in which the Balfour Declaration was embodied could not have intended that Palestine should be converted into a Jewish State against the will of the Arab population of the country.
That Palestine was not to be converted into a Jewish State might be held to be implied in the passage from the Command Paper of 1922 which reads as follows:
"Unauthorized statements have been made to the effect that the purpose in view is to create a wholly Jewish Palestine. Phrases have been used such as that `Palestine is to become as Jewish as England is English.'
 
His Majesty's Government regard any such expectation as impracticable and have no such aim in view. Nor have they at any time contemplated .... the disappearance or the subordination of the Arabic population, language or culture in Palestine.
They would draw attention to the fact that the terms of the (Balfour) Declaration referred to do not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home should be founded IN PALESTINE."
But this statement has not removed doubts, and His Majesty's Government therefore now declare unequivocally that it is not part of their policy that Palestine should become a Jewish State. They would indeed regard it as contrary to their obligations to the Arabs under the Mandate, as well as to the assurances which have been given to the Arab people in the past, that the Arab population of Palestine should be made the subjects of a Jewish State against their will.
 
Then Zionist terrorists started terrorizing the British in Palestine when they started restricting Jewish emigration  to Arab PALESTINE.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 1:34pm
@Ray Cormier:
 
"So, did all those Jews just show up out of nowhere?
No, they came from Europe mostly."
 
Why?

"Rothschild money helped make that possible."
See, whenever I see the words "Rothschild money" my conspiracy theory bullshit o'meter pegs.

Like you, I really don't care if "your conspiracy theory bullshit o'meter pegs."
Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917
Dear Lord Rothschild, (Do see that, Jeffery? Rothschild money)
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour"
 
"WWI wasn't over yet!"
 
Do you know why the British issued the Balfour Declaration?

"Having read the Balfour Declaration so many Times, I just noticed it was dated November 2, ALL SOULS DAY, the same date THE KANSAS CITY TIMES did the follow up to the September 13 record, choosing the header, Prophet Plans Appeal of Conviction which I'm still doing here."
 
?

"The 247 year British Empire was coming to it's end just before WWII. Realizing they might have made a mistake with the Balfour Declaration, they tried to correct the mistaken suppositions with the 1939 White Paper which reads in part,
"It has been urged that the expression "a national home for the Jewish people" offered a prospect that Palestine might in due course become a Jewish State or Commonwealth.
His Majesty's Government do not wish to contest the view, which was expressed by the Royal Commission, that the Zionist leaders at the time of the issue of the Balfour Declaration recognised that an ultimate Jewish State was not precluded by the terms of the Declaration.

But, with the Royal Commission, His Majesty's Government believe that the framers of the Mandate in which the Balfour Declaration was embodied could not have intended that Palestine should be converted into a Jewish State against the will of the Arab population of the country.
That Palestine was not to be converted into a Jewish State might be held to be implied in the passage from the Command Paper of 1922 which reads as follows:
"Unauthorized statements have been made to the effect that the purpose in view is to create a wholly Jewish Palestine. Phrases have been used such as that `Palestine is to become as Jewish as England is English.'

His Majesty's Government regard any such expectation as impracticable and have no such aim in view. Nor have they at any time contemplated .... the disappearance or the subordination of the Arabic population, language or culture in Palestine.
They would draw attention to the fact that the terms of the (Balfour) Declaration referred to do not contemplate that Palestine as a whole should be converted into a Jewish National Home, but that such a Home should be founded IN PALESTINE."
But this statement has not removed doubts, and His Majesty's Government therefore now declare unequivocally that it is not part of their policy that Palestine should become a Jewish State. They would indeed regard it as contrary to their obligations to the Arabs under the Mandate, as well as to the assurances which have been given to the Arab people in the past, that the Arab population of Palestine should be made the subjects of a Jewish State against their will."
 
Where are you citing all this from?
 
Also, it took 20 + years for Israel to come into being.  Took'em long enough.

"Then Zionist terrorists started terrorizing the British in Palestine when they started restricting Jewish emigration to Arab PALESTINE."
 
And?
John Minehan Added Oct 8, 2017 - 4:21pm
Wow.
 
The truth is . . . in there (somewhere).
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 4:41pm
Where are you citing all this from?
Wow. You've never read these?
Some historian you are.
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 5:29pm
Wow, John thinks Palestinians killing Israelis funny.  
No I think it's amusing in an ironic way that you are using decontextualised 'statistics' from a US propaganda rag after rejecting statistics on comparative death rates further up the thread.
You're a hypocrite of the highest order.
So I'm laughing at you, troll.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 6:36pm
@ John G
"Where are you citing all this from?
Wow. You've never read these?
Some historian you are."
 
Actually, it's essentially word for word from the Wikipedia entry.  What I wanted Ray to do is cite his source for his information, I know he didn't pull all that straight from his head.
It's the intellectually honest thing to do, John.  All historians know that.

John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 5:29pm
Follow Me
Delete comment
"Wow, John thinks Palestinians killing Israelis funny.
No I think it's amusing in an ironic way that you are using decontextualised 'statistics' from a US propaganda rag after rejecting statistics on comparative death rates further up the thread.
You're a hypocrite of the highest order.
So I'm laughing at you, troll."
 
 
No, be honest.  You think it's funny that Palestinians are killing Israelis.
 
You know, John, I always find it ironic when you call me a troll.  Let's face it, troll is your middle name.
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 6:40pm
I love the way that 'liberals' have adopted the right wing tactic of inventing their opponents views for them.
Today's liberals are asinine wingnuts. Neoliberals and neoconservatives in the wrong party.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 8, 2017 - 6:42pm
"Actually, it's essentially word for word from the Wikipedia entry."
FALSE!
 
My original comment says exactly where it comes from.
John Minehan Added Oct 8, 2017 - 6:54pm
"There Are Too Many Saviors on My Cross
There are too many saviors on my cross,
lending their blood to flood out my ballot box with needs of their own.
Who put you there?
Who told you that that was your place?
You carry me secretly naked in your heart
and clothe me publicly in armor
crying “God is on our side,” yet I openly cry
Who is on mine?
Who?
Tell me, who?
You who bury your sons and cripple your fathers
whilst you bury my father in crippling his son.
The antiquated Saxon sword,
rusty in its scabbard of time now rises—
you gave it cause in my name,
bringing shame to the thorned head
that once bled for your salvation.
I hear your daily cries
in the far-off byways in your mouth
pointing north and south
and my Calvary looms again,
desperate in rebirth.
Your earth is partitioned,
but in contrition
it is the partition
in your hearts that you must abolish.
You nightly watchers of Gethsemene
who sat through my nightly trial delivering me from evil—
now deserted, I watch you share your silver.
Your purse, rich in hate,
bleeds my veins of love,
shattering my bone in the dust of the bogside and the Shankhill road.
There is no issue stronger than the tissue of love,
no need as holy as the palm outstretched in the run of generosity,
no monstrosity greater than the acre you inflict.
Who gave you the right to increase your fold
and decrease the pastures of my flock?
Who gave you the right?
Who gave it to you?
Who?
And in whose name do you fight?
I am not in heaven,
I am here,
hear me.
I am in you,
feel me.
I am of you,
be me.
I am with you,
see me.
I am for you,
need me.
I am all mankind;
only through kindness will you reach me.
What masked and bannered men can rock the ark
and navigate a course to their annointed kingdom come?
Who sailed their captain to waters that they troubled in my font,
sinking in the ignorant seas of prejudice?
There is no virgin willing to conceive in the heat of any bloody Sunday.
You crippled children lying in cries on Derry’s streets,
pushing your innocence to the full flush face of Christian guns,
battling the blame on each other,
do not grow tongues in your dying dumb wounds speaking my name.
I am not your prize in your death.
You have exorcized me in your game of politics.
Go home to your knees and worship me in any cloth,
for I was never tailor-made.
Who told you I was?
Who gave you the right to think it?
Take your beads in your crippled hands,
can you count my decades?
Take my love in your crippled hearts,
can you count the loss?
I am not orange.
I am not green.
I am a half-ripe fruit needing both colors to grow into ripeness,
and shame on you to have withered my orchard.
I in my poverty,
alone without trust,
cry shame on you
and shame on you again and again
for converting me into a bullet and shooting me into men’s hearts.
The ageless legend of my trial grows old
in the youth of your pulse staggering shamelessly from barricade to grave,
filing in the book of history my needless death one April.
Let me, in my betrayal, lie low in my grave,
and you, in your bitterness, lie low in yours,
for our measurements grow strangely dissimilar.
Our Father, who art in heaven,
sullied be thy name."----Richard Harris
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 8, 2017 - 7:20pm
The Palestinians’ Right and Duty to Resist
Faced with a reality in which Israel is strong and the United States is in its pocket, it is the duty of Palestinians to resist the occupation. The only question relates to the means.


Imagine you’re the Palestinians. Perhaps residents of East Jerusalem. Forty-seven difficult years are behind you; a big, depressing darkness lies ahead. The Israeli tyranny that dooms your fate declares arrogantly that everything will stay like this forever. Your city will remain under occupation “for ever and ever.” The defense minister, second in importance in the government that subjugates you, says a Palestinian state will never be established.
 
Imagine you’re Palestinian and your children are in danger. Two days ago, the occupation forces killed another child because “he lit a firebomb.” The words “Death to Arabs” were sprayed near your home. Everywhere you turn, a soldier or Border Police officer may shout at you. Every night, your home may be invaded brutally. You will never be treated like human beings. They’ll destroy, humiliate, intimidate, perhaps even arrest you, possibly without trial.
 
There are close to 500 administrative detainees, a record number in recent years. If one of your dear ones is arrested, you will have difficulty visiting him. If you succeed, you’ll get half an hour’s conversation through a glass window. If your dear one is an administrative detainee, you will never know when he’ll be released. But these are trivia you grew accustomed to long ago.
 
Maybe you’ve also grown accustomed to the land theft. At every moment a settler can invade your land, burn your plantation or torch your fields. He will not be brought to trial for this; the soldiers who are supposed to protect you will stand idly by. At any moment, a demolition order or random eviction order may appear. There’s nothing you can do.
 
Imagine you’re the Palestinians. You can’t leave Gaza and it’s not easy to leave the West Bank, either. The beach, less than an hour’s drive from your West Bank home, is beyond the mountains of darkness. An Israeli can go to Tierra del Fuego, between Argentina and Chile, much more easily than you can go to the beach at Ajami.
 
There are no dreams, no wishes. Your children have a slim chance of accomplishing anything in life, even if they go to university. All they can look forward to is a life of humiliation and unemployment.
 
There’s no chance that this situation is about to change anytime soon. Israel is strong, the United States is in its pocket, your leadership is weak (the Palestinian Authority) and isolated (Hamas), and the world is losing interest in your fate. What do you do?
 
There are two possibilities. The first is to accept, give in, give up. The second is to resist. Whom have we respected more in history? Those who passed their days under the occupation and collaborated with it, or those who struggled for their freedom?
 
Imagine you’re a Palestinian. You have every right to resist. In fact, it’s your civil duty. No argument there. The occupied people’s right to resist occupation is secured in natural justice, in the morals of history and in international law.
 
The only restrictions are on the means of resistance. The Palestinians have tried almost all of them, for better and worse – negotiations and terror; with a carrot and with a stick; with a stone and with bombs; in demonstrations and in suicide. All in vain. Are they to despair and give up? This has almost never happened in history, so they’ll continue. Sometimes they’ll use legitimate means, sometimes vile ones. It’s their right to resist.
 
Now they’re resisting in Jerusalem. They don’t want Israeli rule, or people who set live children on fire. They don’t want armed settlers who invade their apartments in the middle of the night, under the Israeli law’s protection, and evict them. They don’t want a municipality that grants its services according to national affiliation, or judges that sentence their children according to their origin. They also go nuts when the house of a Jewish terrorist is not demolished, while the house of a Palestinian will be torn down.
 
They don’t want Israel to continue tyrannizing them, so they resist. They hurl stones and firebombs. That’s what resistance looks like. Sometimes they act with heinous murderousness, but even that is not as bad as their occupier’s built-in violence.
 
It’s their right; it’s their duty.


Gideon Levy
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 7:28pm
@John G
"I love the way that 'liberals' have adopted the right wing tactic of inventing their opponents views for them.
Today's liberals are asinine wingnuts. Neoliberals and neoconservatives in the wrong party."
 
I love the way that John feels like he can just act like a douchey troll while accusing people of trolling.  That takes special skill.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 7:29pm
@Ray Cormier:
""Actually, it's essentially word for word from the Wikipedia entry."
FALSE!

My original comment says exactly where it comes from."
 
Then you have my apologies.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 7:33pm
@John Cormier:
The Palestinians can certainly resist.  But, when that resistance draws shelling, missiles or bullets, then they can't complain about the reaction.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 7:37pm
This whole thing has gone so far from my original intent I no longer remember why I wrote it.  
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 8, 2017 - 7:39pm
Yes, the Israelis do use phosphorous bombs dropped from bombers, jet fighters, Apache attack helicopters, tanks and artillery against home made rockets that more often than not, miss their mark. The Iron Dome stops the rest. State Terrorism!
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 7:45pm
Well, if you fire a rocket, Ray, it doesn't really matter if it hits a target.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 8, 2017 - 7:57pm
Jeffery, you are so morally blind in your extreme Zionism underneath the faux moderate image you falsely propagate!
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 8, 2017 - 8:03pm
It was to educate white trash on the various types of Ghettos. This post does establish a record in WriterBeat with 664 viewers and 274 comments to now.
Then you admitted Gaza fits the description of a Ghetto by your own standards you thought applied only to Black Ghettos in the US
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 8:10pm
To the zionists, history always starts with the Palestinian action.
Israel is ALWAYS the poor victim reacting to terror!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 8:12pm
Never mind that they are the colonialists, the occupiers, the ethnic cleansers, the squatters and the mass murderers.
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 8:38pm
The Palestinians can certainly resist.  But, when that resistance draws shelling, missiles or bullets, then they can't complain about the reaction.
I imagine that you'll claim you are unaware of what happened when they peacefully resisted prior to the first intifada and what peaceful protests draw today.
You're simply not interested in Palestinians or justice.
As I suspected long ago, you are a zionist troll.
Zionists love Nazis and encourage the Stormfront type nonsense.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 8:49pm
@ Ray Cormier:
"Jeffery, you are so morally blind in your extreme Zionism underneath the faux moderate image you falsely propagate!"
 
So, then, you've swung to John's side on this, I'm a morally blind Zionist. I find that to be extremely strange, all things considered.
 
You've come to that conclusion because I simply don't feel comfortable leaving only one side on the table. I've repeatedly tried to tell you what I feel the only solution to be, a separate Palestinian state with a commitment to Israeli security that I feel must happen.
 
Instead you seem to think the only appropriate reaction is blind condemnation of all Israeli actions without offering any realistic solution. Sorry, Ray, wanting the Holy Spirit to descend on all the concerned parties is extremely unrealistic. While I find that faith admirable, it has no application in the real world. No Bible versus have ever stopped wars, no prayers have ever stopped bullets.
 
If you've glanced at anything I've written here, Ray, you know my interest is European History, particularly WW II and the Holocaust. One of the troubling things I've read is how much the victims prayed. They prayed to God for salvation, they prayed to God for vengeance, they prayed to God for one more day, they prayed to God for forgiveness for the things they did to survive. Many of them lost their faith because of what they went through. I think that troubles me most of all.
 
See, Ray, that is what you come up against when you talk about Israel, the knowledge of what happened to the Jews before there was an Israel. I noticed you didn't bother to answer me on why European Jews went to Israel after the war. They went there because they thought it was the only safe place for them after what they went through. Did you know, Ray, that persecutions of Jews continued after the war? It was particularly virulent in Eastern Europe when the survivors went back and tried to claim their property. Some of them died, Ray.
 
So, this is the heritage you so studiously ignore. I'm not making excuses for them, Ray. I know what is happening isn't right, this is why I think a separate state for the Palestinians is the only solution.
 
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 8, 2017 - 8:03pm
Follow Me
Delete comment
"It was to educate white trash on the various types of Ghettos. This post does establish a record in WriterBeat with 664 viewers and 274 comments to now.
Then you admitted Gaza fits the description of a Ghetto by your own standards you thought applied only to Black Ghettos in the US"
Not even black ghettos are blockaded, Ray. Gaza more properly fits under the historical model of the ghetto, with limited access to the outside world and the inhabitants reliant on outside forces to supply them.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 8:50pm
*verse, not versus.
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 9:06pm
 I've repeatedly tried to tell you what I feel the only solution to be, a separate Palestinian state with a commitment to Israeli security that I feel must happen.
This is your fig leaf. But it is plain as day that you take the side of the oppressor AND that you take this fig leaf knowing full well that it will never happen.
So it's a nonsense anyway.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 8, 2017 - 9:22pm
They went there because they thought it was the only safe place for them after what they went through. Did you know, Ray, that persecutions of Jews continued after the war? It was particularly virulent in Eastern Europe when the survivors went back and tried to claim their property. Some of them died, Ray.
 
I know the US and England didn't want to take the Jews in after WWII. Much easier to impose the European Jews on the Palestinians. They had not much power to resist the European invasion. Naturally those Jews thought it was better Palestinians died than Jews, and think nothing of treating Palestinians with the same sub human attitude the Nazis had for the Jews.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 9:30pm
@John G
"To the zionists, history always starts with the Palestinian action.
Israel is ALWAYS the poor victim reacting to terror!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
 
To loons like John, all that counts is the Israeli reaction, not the action that spurred it.


John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 8:12pm
Follow Me
"Delete comment
Never mind that they are the colonialists, the occupiers, the ethnic cleansers, the squatters and the mass murderers."
 
Wow, were there no Jews at all in Palestine until the founding of Israel?????
 
I guess the other part is why you secretly want to massacre them all, right John?  I mean, that's justice, isn't it? 

John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 8:38pm
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"The Palestinians can certainly resist. But, when that resistance draws shelling, missiles or bullets, then they can't complain about the reaction.
I imagine that you'll claim you are unaware of what happened when they peacefully resisted prior to the first intifada and what peaceful protests draw today."
 
You mean like this?
https://www.google.com/amp/foreignpolicy.com/2011/05/18/palestines-hidden-history-of-nonviolence-2/amp/
 
BTW, I believe this is the first time you or Ray mentioned nonviolent protests.  To me, this is actually the key.  
 
You see, nonviolent protest is actually more powerful than violent actions.  It is extremely powerful and really bad optics to peacefully resist only to have the IDF fire weapons at you.  It shows the world that the Israelis are the oppressors and you are not terrorists.  It forces the West to acknowledge this.
 
"You're simply not interested in Palestinians or justice."
 
Because I don't parrot back your belief systems to you.  Got it.
 
"As I suspected long ago, you are a zionist troll."
 
In your delusional world, where you despise anyone who doesn't believe exactly what you believe, I guess I am.
 
You are the authoritarian, John.  Only authoritarians believe their views are the only views worthy of existence and everyone else is the enemy.  Or a Zionist troll.  Or both.
 
"Zionists love Nazis"
 
LOL, wow, you really are retarded.
 
"and encourage the Stormfront type nonsense."
 
I find Stormfront funny as hell, just like I find you highly amusing.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 9:35pm
@John G
" I've repeatedly tried to tell you what I feel the only solution to be, a separate Palestinian state with a commitment to Israeli security that I feel must happen.
This is your fig leaf."
 
No, this is my sincere belief.
 
"But it is plain as day that you take the side of the oppressor"
 
Only plain to authoritarians like yourself, John.  
 
"AND that you take this fig leaf knowing full well that it will never happen.
So it's a nonsense anyway."
 
You mean like your fantasy of only a single Palestinian state?
 
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 9:37pm
Like Zionism started with WW2 anyway. 
 
As you say, Ray, few of the refugees wanted to go to Palestine, Zionism was a fringe political movement amongst European jewry with some pretty unsavoury links.
Kelly's 'history sounds a lot like he's watched Exodus and imagined it to be true.
A bit like St George quoting Joan Peter's fantasy book as history.
 
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 9:40pm
 authoritarians like yourself,
LOLz. One of my failings in life is that I've never, ever had respect for authority.
You mean like your fantasy of only a single Palestinian state?
A single state is the only viable option. 
You are just too blind and too racist to be able to imagine it.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 8, 2017 - 9:44pm
"You see, nonviolent protest is actually more powerful than violent actions."
 
Now you understand why Israel's proxies in the US pay American politicians to criminalize the non violent BDS movement, the only way to get Israel to change it's repressive Military Dictatorship in the occupied territories, depriving Palestinians of any Civil Rights in the Military Courts.
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 10:03pm
The One-State Solution
I wonder if Kelly realises that Israel is a 'Jewish state' like South Africa was a white state?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 10:06pm
@ Ray Cormier
"I know the US and England didn't want to take the Jews in after WWII. Much easier to impose the European Jews on the Palestinians."
 
They didn't want them before or during the war, Ray.
 
"They had not much power to resist the European invasion."
 
You make it sound like the European refugees were armed to the teeth and spoiling for a fight.  
 
Also, you do remember that a coalition of Arab states attacked Israel the day after Israel proclaimed itself, right?
https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/arab-israeli-war
 
 
"Naturally those Jews thought it was better Palestinians died than Jews, and think nothing of treating Palestinians with the same sub human attitude the Nazis had for the Jews."
 
Those Jews wanted to escape from the Displaced Persons Camps where they were being held.  Did you know, Ray, that many of those camps were Nazi Concentration Camps?
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 10:20pm
You make it sound like the European refugees were armed to the teeth and spoiling for a fight.  
The zionist militias who were ethnically cleansing Palestine (since well before the unilateral and illegal declaration of statehood) far outnumbered the Arab troops sent. And were better armed.
80% of the indigenous population was expelled and their villages destroyed so they could never return.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 10:21pm
@ John G
"Like Zionism started with WW2 anyway."
 
Who said that it did?  I sure as shit didn't.
 
"As you say, Ray, few of the refugees wanted to go to Palestine, Zionism was a fringe political movement amongst European jewry with some pretty unsavoury links."
 
Maybe you should write your own fucking article about it instead of cluttering up my post with your horse shit.

"Kelly's 'history sounds a lot like he's watched Exodus and imagined it to be true."
 
Please show me where I'm wrong.


John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 9:40pm
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"authoritarians like yourself,
LOLz. One of my failings in life"
 
You have many failings in life.
 
"is that I've never, ever had respect for authority."
 
You mean like Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin?  They didn't respect authority, either.

"You mean like your fantasy of only a single Palestinian state?
A single state is the only viable option."
 
How are you going to make that a reality, John?  How exactly do you go about making Israel give up its sovereignty?
Tell me John.  Do you ask pretty please with sugar on top?
 
"You are just too blind and too racist to be able to imagine it."
 
The next comment you make accusing me of being a racist better show me to my satisfaction how I'm a racist or it will be deleted, John.  Period.  I have a high level of tolerance for stupidity...God knows I've tolerated your stupidity far longer than I should....but I will no longer tolerate you making that accusation.  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 8, 2017 - 11:09pm
John, I'm serious.  I've just deleted the first of your comments.  I even see "racist" without you explaining to my satisfaction how I'm a racist will result in deletion.
 
I've come to the end of my patience with you.  I've had enough of your baseless accusations about me, John.  My tolerance has limits and you've reached them.
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 11:18pm
I guess the other part is why you secretly want to massacre them all, right John? 
 
 I've had enough of your baseless accusations about me, John. 
 
LOLz.
John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 11:18pm
John, I'm serious.  I've just deleted the first of your comments.  I even see "racist" without you explaining to my satisfaction how I'm a racist will result in deletion.
You deleted my reasoning because it is impeccable logic.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 9, 2017 - 12:29am
@John G
"I guess the other part is why you secretly want to massacre them all, right John?

I've had enough of your baseless accusations about me, John.

LOLz."
 
You started it, fuck face.

John G Added Oct 8, 2017 - 11:18pm
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"John, I'm serious. I've just deleted the first of your comments. I even see "racist" without you explaining to my satisfaction how I'm a racist will result in deletion.
You deleted my reasoning because it is impeccable logic."
 
No, I deleted it because you do not tell me how I feel, what I believe in or what I'm thinking, John.  Period.  
 
You seem fit to slime your way onto various people's posts, arrogantly assuming you are right about who they are or what their motives are.  You think only your views are the only correct views in the universe.
 
Well, fuck you, John.  You are on a tight leash with me.  I've spent the last couple of days wasting my time with you and that time is done.  You post comments here at my sufferance.  You are done calling me a troll and a racist, any more personal comments will be deleted.
 
I hope we are clear on this, John.  Up until this moment I actually had a "no delete" rule.  I put this in place after the first time I deleted some of your comments, I actually felt bad about it.  I can see now that this simply encouraged you to be a trolling little fuck, feeling free to post insults towards me in my own article.  You accuse me of being a troll but the reality is that you haven't written anything of your own in a while.  Nothing says a troll quite like a troll that doesn't even write his own articles.
 
So, stay if you want but you'll conduct yourself courteously or you will find your shit gone.
John G Added Oct 9, 2017 - 12:52am
You started it, fuck face.
Oh no I didn't. You slung the antisemitism epithet very early on in the piece and you've smeared a whole bunch of people here with your 'like holocaust deniers' routine.
No again. You deleted it because I did as you asked i.e. justified my statement with logic that you can't defeat.
 
John G Added Oct 9, 2017 - 12:53am
Deleting posts will get you into the pantheon of like minded posters here.
John G Added Oct 9, 2017 - 12:58am
you haven't written anything of your own in a while. 
I write pieces elsewhere. And I probably won't publish here again under the current rules.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 9, 2017 - 8:14am
Look at the overall division of the Ottoman Empire after WWI.  The Objective was to create states that were favorable to Europe.  They had  almost 1200 years of Islam wars and the growth of multiple Caliphate empires.  They wanted divison of ethnic groups and they wanted to appoint the leaders.  The government chosen for Turkey for example up until the present prime minister was westernizing.  This is the first major move back toward a caliphate.  The kurds wanted a separate nation when the nation was broken up.  The nations were created with internal ethnic conflicts built in.  The Europeans wanted weak states.   The concept worked for a century and through WWII.  The state created around Jerusalem was purposely constructed with a seeds of the present conflict on purpose. 
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 9, 2017 - 8:33am
The Islamic Ottoman Empire lasted longer than the Babylonian, Persian, Grecian, Roman and British Empires.
 
I agree with this, "The Objective was to create states that were favourable to Europe." They did the same thing in Africa, carving up the Continent with total disregard to Tribal and Linguistic boundaries.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 9, 2017 - 8:47am
John G
 
I've deleted both of your posts on the BDS, this is not an advert for the BDS.  You want to talk about the BDS?  Do it in your own article.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 9, 2017 - 9:10am
@John G
"You started it, fuck face.
"Oh no I didn't. You slung the antisemitism epithet very early on in the piece"
 
John, you've essentially spent your whole time here calling me a hasbara troll.  Calling me a racist will not be tolerated.
 
"and you've smeared a whole bunch of people here with your 'like holocaust deniers' routine."
 
Wow, you have reading comprehension problems, don't you?
 

"No again. You deleted it because I did as you asked i.e. justified my statement with logic that you can't defeat."
 
Uh, John, no, you cannot use your fucked up logic to explain to me how I feel.  To say you are biased against anyone who doesn't agree with you is an understatement.


John G Added Oct 9, 2017 - 12:53am
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"Deleting posts will get you into the pantheon of like minded posters here."
 
In your case I'm making an exception.

John G Added Oct 9, 2017 - 12:58am
Follow Me
Delete comment
"you haven't written anything of your own in a while.
I write pieces elsewhere. And I probably won't publish here again under the current rules."
 
So, then, you've stayed to troll.  Good to know.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 9, 2017 - 10:32am
Deleting John G's posts is something you said you didn't do when white trash deleted your posts! That is what moved you to write this article!
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 9, 2017 - 12:35pm
@ Ray Cormier:
"Deleting John G's posts is something you said you didn't do when white trash deleted your posts! That is what moved you to write this article!"
 
Ray, I will not tolerate being called a racist.  Period.  I also do not have to suffer being told what I believe from some troll who made up his mind who and what I was in about 3 posts.
 
See, I actually agree with a lot of what you and John post about Israel.  I've said multiple times how I feel and what I believe about it.  
 
But John refuses to believe anything I say because he is a monumentally intolerant individual.  Back when I replied to him the first time, when I didn't immediately parrot back to him what he wanted to hear, that's when he started this hasbara crap.  
 
In any case I've put up with it long enough.  John is welcome to post, as are you, but he is under probation.  Anything I find objectionable will be deleted.  Period.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 9, 2017 - 1:34pm
See, I actually agree with a lot of what you and John post about Israel.  I've said multiple times how I feel and what I believe about it.  
 
Words and deeds are not the same, Jeffery. It was your cavalier attitude in your comment in reply to me, not to John on Israeli vs Palestinian deaths that made me suspect of your sincerity?
John Minehan Added Oct 9, 2017 - 1:44pm
Ottoman Empire 1299-1922 CE, 623 Years
 
Eastern Roman Empire/Romaioi 330-1453 CE 1,123 Years.
 
Now, as to the other named Empires, the question is how do you count them?
 
There was an Achaemenid Persian Empire, there was a Parthian Empire and there was a Sassanid Persian Empire.  All were dominated by ethnic Persians and were influenced strongly by the Mazdeism or the Zoroastrian faith and used a similar sort of quasi-feudal/manorial system using Satraps.
 
Was that one Empire lasting from about 330 BCE until 651 CE (981 years with interruptions)?
 
The Roman Empire was founded in 27 BCE.  Do you assume it passed on its way by 476 CE (503 years) or do you tack the Romaioi to that and say that Rome lasted 1480 year?  Do you tack the Roman Republic at some point, perhaps when it started to control vast swaths of territory outside Italy?
 
Why does any of this matter?
 
Because what everyone is saying here is true.  The disagreement is over what weight to give the facts, what facts to include and (although it is not really relevant) the relative good or bad faith of the parties.
 
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 9, 2017 - 2:15pm
@Ray Cormier:
"Words and deeds are not the same, Jeffery."
 
So, I should move to the Gaza Strip and shell Israeli positions from there, Ray?  
 
"It was your cavalier attitude in your comment in reply to me, not to John on Israeli vs Palestinian deaths that made me suspect of your sincerity?"
 
Ray, it's truly irrelevant to me whether or not you suspect my sincerity.  I know what I believe in, what other people think about me is irrelevant.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 9, 2017 - 2:21pm
John, thank God for the Internet!
 
The last Roman Emperor was overthrown in 476, so the Roman Empire lasted only 503 years, less Time than the Ottoman Islamic Empire.
 
If you include the page of History turning from Emperor of Rome to Pope of Rome, maybe your Time for the Roman Empire lasting 1,123 years might be right?
 
Why does any of this matter, you ask?
Knowing the Past might give us a better understanding of where we're at, but what we do TODAY determines the FUTURE for us individually, and collectively, and that matters!
 
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 9, 2017 - 2:28pm
"So, I should move to the Gaza Strip and shell Israeli positions from there, Ray?"
That is facetious and ridiculous, and indicates you're not a serious person.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 9, 2017 - 2:35pm
@Ray Cormier:
""So, I should move to the Gaza Strip and shell Israeli positions from there, Ray?"
That is facetious and ridiculous, and indicates you're not a serious person."
 
I'm actually a very serious person.  
 
What do you mean by "deeds," Ray?
John G Added Oct 9, 2017 - 4:51pm
Quite so, Ray.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Oct 9, 2017 - 4:58pm
I'm removing myself from this useless discussion.
John G Added Oct 9, 2017 - 5:07pm
Me too.
Edward Miessner Added Oct 9, 2017 - 6:19pm
Well it looks like the discussion thread about ghettoes has focused on one ghetto in particular: Gaza. And has gone astray from there.
 
And it really looks like there is NO solution to the unpleasantness in that corner of the globe. The only workable solution in my opinion would be, "United Republic of Israel and Palestine," from the River to the Sea, from the Negev to the Galilee, as a secular democratic state with Palestinians on an equal footing. Which would never happen, for multiple reasons.
John G Added Oct 9, 2017 - 6:40pm
Yes well I was called a genocidal, jew hating, antisemite for that very same suggestion.
It could happen if the USA were to get out of the way.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 9, 2017 - 7:01pm
I thought you were leaving, John.  I can't miss you until you fuck off.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 9, 2017 - 7:30pm
@Edward Miessner:
"Well it looks like the discussion thread about ghettoes has focused on one ghetto in particular: Gaza. And has gone astray from there."
 
I never thought of Gaza as a ghetto but I can certainly see that now.

"And it really looks like there is NO solution to the unpleasantness in that corner of the globe. The only workable solution in my opinion would be, "United Republic of Israel and Palestine," from the River to the Sea, from the Negev to the Galilee, as a secular democratic state with Palestinians on an equal footing. Which would never happen, for multiple reasons."
 
It's why I advocate for a two state solution.  For some reason that makes me a racist, Zionist, hasbara troll.
John G Added Oct 10, 2017 - 3:11am
Simply Jews Added Oct 10, 2017 - 3:26am
I am of a habit to ignore that character, which is a generally healthy idea for everyone, but this is extraordinary indeed. Thanks to him/her you can get now a sound advice on correct behavior from a lady (First Lady, no less) whose hubby happily presides over killing of half a million of his own citizen and dispersal of half of his country. Not to mention destruction of most of big cities...
 
Will the wonders ever cease?
Simply Jews Added Oct 10, 2017 - 3:28am
Wait for him telling all about how ISIS/Daesh is a baby of CIA and Mossad by way of controlled demolition of WTC and fake lunar landings. 
John G Added Oct 10, 2017 - 3:35am
Yeah, that's why Syrians flee to government held areas and Bashar al Assad is far more popular than any western leader.
Moron.
John G Added Oct 10, 2017 - 4:35am
Setting the Stage to Commit a Massacre in Gaza
2005: The First Rain
The militarization of the Israeli policy towards the Gaza strip began in 2005. That year Gaza became an official military target from the Israeli point of view, as if it were a huge enemy base rather than a place of civilian habitation. Gaza is a city like any other in the world, and yet for the Israelis it became a dummy city for soldiers to experiment with the most recent and advanced weapons.
This policy was enabled by the Israeli government's decision to evict the Jewish settlers who had colonized the Gaza Strip since 1967. The settlers were allegedly moved as part of what the government described as a unilateral policy of disengagement, the argument being that since there was no progress in the peace talks with the Palestinians, it was up to Israel to determine how its borders with the Palestinian areas would ultimately look. In essence, Prime Minister Sharon was willing to turn the Strip into a West Bank Area A and in turn strengthen Israel's grip on the West Bank (and in evicting the Gazan settlers against their will, it would create an alleged trauma that would absolve Israel from ever repeating it again).
But things did not turn out as expected. The eviction of the settlers was followed by a Hamas takeover, first in democratic elections, then in a pre-emptive coup staged to avert an American-backed seizure by Fatah. The immediate Israeli response was to impose an economic blockade on the Gaza Strip, to which Hamas retaliated by firing missiles at the nearest town to the Strip, Sderot. This gave Israel the pretext to use its air force, artillery and gunships. Israel claimed it was firing at the launching areas of the missiles, but in practice this meant anywhere and everywhere in the Strip.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 10, 2017 - 8:13am
@Simply Jews:
"I am of a habit to ignore that character, which is a generally healthy idea for everyone, but this is extraordinary indeed."
 
Well, I find it hard to ignore someone who calls me a slime, a hasbara troll and a racist.  
 
"Thanks to him/her you can get now a sound advice on correct behavior from a lady (First Lady, no less) whose hubby happily presides over killing of half a million of his own citizen and dispersal of half of his country. Not to mention destruction of most of big cities...

Will the wonders ever cease?"
 
Well, at least she was really easy on the eyes.  

Simply Jews Added Oct 10, 2017 - 3:28am
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"Wait for him telling all about how ISIS/Daesh is a baby of CIA and Mossad by way of controlled demolition of WTC and fake lunar landings."
 
John's a bit more grounded than that, I've never seen him claim that the lunar landings were faked.  I think it's because he can't blame it on the Jews.
Edward Miessner Added Oct 10, 2017 - 12:41pm
Jeffrey: "It's why I advocate for a two state solution.  For some reason that makes me a racist, Zionist, hasbara troll."
 
But as Ray Joseph Cormier stated, Netanyahu will never agree to that. And Netanyahu knows that the current crop of US politicians have his back, on "both sides of the aisle."
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 11, 2017 - 9:50am
@Edward Miessner:
"But as Ray Joseph Cormier stated, Netanyahu will never agree to that. And Netanyahu knows that the current crop of US politicians have his back, on "both sides of the aisle."
 
Israel will never agree to a single Palestinian state, either. A two state solution has a better chance of happening.
Edward Miessner Added Oct 11, 2017 - 12:38pm
Jeffrey,
"Israel will never agree to a single Palestinian state, either. A two state solution has a better chance of happening."
 
As in Israel and Palestine as separate states? That has as much chance of happening as an icicle in Hell. Of course, Israel could just go ahead and annex the two places, but then the Palestinians would immediately become Arab Israelis and the Knesset would have to recognise their full and equal rights, at least to those enjoyed by the present-day Arab Israelis. I think THAT has a better chance of happening than the classic two-state solution which would immediately become unworkable on the negotiating table because FATAH and HAMAS would immediately want their territories linked by a limited-access, extraterritorial road. I believe a similar demand was a precipitate cause of World War 2.
John Minehan Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:03pm
"Of course, Israel could just go ahead and annex the two places, but then  Palestinians would immediately become Arab Israelis and the Knesset would have to recognise their full and equal rights, at least to those enjoyed by the present-day Arab Israelis."
 
That would open the way for the fact that the Palestinian (and general Arab population) is growing faster than the Israeli population to lead to something like what John G is talking about (and the UN envisioned in 1947: a combined state with protection for the Jewish population, rather than a Jewish-state per se.
 
That could work, but would be very difficult to achieve.  The Israeli Government is not unaware of its demographic dilemma.
 
Edward Miessner Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:06pm
John, and that is why I think the Israeli government will continue with it's Palestinian reservation system until the Arab Israelis outnumber the Jewish ones at the ballot box and in the Knesset. A one-state solution would instantly swamp the Israeli Jews in an Arab-majority state.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:07pm
@Edward Miessner:
"As in Israel and Palestine as separate states? That has as much chance of happening as an icicle in Hell."
 
So does a single state solution.
 
"Of course, Israel could just go ahead and annex the two places, but then the Palestinians would immediately become Arab Israelis and the Knesset would have to recognise their full and equal rights, at least to those enjoyed by the present-day Arab Israelis."
 
It isn't a bad idea but the problem is the Palestinians need to agree to it.  Treating them as subjugated citizens....what they are doing right now....is an atrocity.
 
"I think THAT has a better chance of happening than the classic two-state solution which would immediately become unworkable on the negotiating table because FATAH and HAMAS would immediately want their territories linked by a limited-access, extraterritorial road. I believe a similar demand was a precipitate cause of World War 2."
 
 
The extraterritorial road was nothing but a pretext, a bargaining chip that Hitler understood the Poles would never go for, at least, it became that way.  It depends on the interpretation of Hitler motives in the Spring of 1939.  This is my opinion but if the Poles ceded Danzig and the road then it might have avoided war but by that time no one trusted Hitler's motives.  
 
Hitler, tried, repeatedly, to draw the Poles closer to him throughout the 30's. He wanted the Poles to join him against the USSR.  In return for Polish territory there are indications of Hitler wanting to compensate the Poles with Soviet territory, most likely in Belarus.
 
But the Poles had no desire to join any anti-Soviet alliance and no desire to become a German puppet.  When this became obvious Hitler turned on them.
Edward Miessner Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:16pm
Jeffrey, agreed.
 
"It isn't a bad idea but the problem is the Palestinians need to agree to it.  Treating them as subjugated citizens....what they are doing right now....is an atrocity."
 
Exactly. But a one-state solution would create an Arab-majority state and it would be a short time before the Palestinians are no longer subjugated. But they'll still have to deal with the systemic results, which they would have to do in their own landlocked state at any rate.
 
"The extraterritorial road was nothing but a pretext, a bargaining chip that Hitler understood the Poles would never go for, at least, it became that way."
 
And for that reason the Israeli government would never agree to an extraterritorial road for Palestine.
Simply Jews Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:22pm
Not that I want to butt in, gentlemen, but that extraterritorial road (as well as an airport and a seaport) were agreed upon in the Gaza "disengagement" in 2005. That the result was disappointing, to say it gently, is another matter. Only the airport came up, and even this was short lived. 
Edward Miessner Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:26pm
Simply Jews, so what happened to it?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:27pm
Thank you, SJ.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:28pm
Feel free to comment whenever you want, it does us all good to hear differing viewpoints on this.
Simply Jews Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:30pm
The rocket science started to develop in Gaza. Unlike some people think, it started way before Hamas takeover. So the airport was bombed out (I think the landing strip is still intact, though), but the seaport and the connecting road never came to be.
Sad.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:31pm
@Edward Miessner:
"Exactly. But a one-state solution would create an Arab-majority state and it would be a short time before the Palestinians are no longer subjugated. But they'll still have to deal with the systemic results, which they would have to do in their own landlocked state at any rate."
 
Would they then turn on their Jewish minority?  
 
That is something you need to consider, Edward and why this possibility makes a single state an impossibility.  The Israelis will not place themselves in a position of weakness again.  They have two thousand years of history to examine when Jews are a minority and it is not a pretty picture.
 
Also, what do you do with Israeli nukes?
Edward Miessner Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:41pm
Jeffrey, the same sort of situation arises when you have a two-state solution: the Jews wouldn't be a minority in their "own" country, but they would be surrounded by hostile Arab states in the exact same manner that they were in 1956 and in 1967. Israel went back behind their borders in 1956 and apparently after 1967, they said, Never Again. And you gave your own reason why a two-state solution is also an equal impossibility.
So we are all going to have to wait until the Arab Israelis outnumber the Jews, or until the United States weakens to the point where it can no longer support the State of Israel. And we can't rule out the possibility that the Jewish Israelis would subjugate their Arab fellow citizens, or find new allies to support Israel either!
Simply Jews Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:55pm
"And we can't rule out the possibility that the Jewish Israelis would subjugate their Arab fellow citizens, or find new allies to support Israel either!"
 
Not much support or appetite for the former and only a slight possibility of the latter, I would say.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:56pm
Edward, this is why I think the following needs to happen:
1) A separate Palestinian state 
2) A bilateral treaty with the US and the two states guaranteeing their borders, or an international agreement with the US, EU, whoever else doing the same
3) Possible entry of Israel into NATO
4) All of this overseen by the UN
 
In addition, any US and other international aid to both countries tied to both sides standing by these treaties.
 
That is my solution. 
Simply Jews Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:00pm
Might work, except #4.
 
John Minehan Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:00pm
The Demographic Issue is probably fatal to the existence of a Jewish State.
 
There are two potential ways of dealing with this: 1) is to try to maintain control; 2) the second is to set up a legal framework to  protect the rights of the Jewish minority (with their economic contribution being enough of a benefit to the Arab majority to   ensure the laws would be honored).
 
The second possibility is essentially what happened in South Africa.
 
The US ceasing to be a protector of Israel is probably less of a factor.  Israel is a major power in the region.  Further, many  Arab states have quietly become aligned with Israel, in order to oppose things like the expansion of Iranian power and things like the Arab Spring.
John G Added Oct 11, 2017 - 3:10pm
The truth is that while the Palestinian leadership has accepted the two-state solution since the late 1980s, Israel has always rejected it. In fact, the US-led so-called “peace process” is in reality the process by which Israel and its superpower benefactor have long blocked implementation of the two-state solution.
John G Added Oct 11, 2017 - 3:18pm
Jeffrey Kelly Added Oct 11, 2017 - 3:38pm
@John Minehan:
"The US ceasing to be a protector of Israel is probably less of a factor. Israel is a major power in the region. Further, many Arab states have quietly become aligned with Israel, in order to oppose things like the expansion of Iranian power and things like the Arab Spring."
 
Israel is heavily reliant on US aid.  I don't see the Israeli-US relationship ending any time soon, they are a longstanding ally in the region, as you say they are a major regional power.  The Right-Wing Christians love Israel and as Edward says, they enjoy bipartisan support.
John Minehan Added Oct 11, 2017 - 4:29pm
The US is not the power its was.  I think Israel understands that and is seeking new patrons. 
 
I think Russia is a likely protector, given Russia's long (and somewhat tortured) history with Israel and the Jewish people. 
John G Added Oct 11, 2017 - 4:30pm
'Israel' is American capitalism's attack dog in the ME that keeps the region destabilised and thus impotent and unable to harness its resource wealth.
The Arab tyrants and dictators are satraps of the empire. They are propped up to keep their people down.
Making common cause with zionists has never been a problem for them. Keeping their people unaware was.