Licensed Gun Owner Stephen Paddock v Los Vegas

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Stephen Paddock 64 year old devoured accountant. That has been purchasing guns for 20 years, with more than 42 guns found that he owned. He would be considered a collector, owns multiple guns. He had a license to purchase guns in at least two states.

 

Could we have identified him earlier? Not likely. The girl friend would consider him a gun collector. I do not know if the purchase of a bump adapter that uses the recoil of the gun to pull the trigger when the finger is held in a fixed position is legal in Nevada or the other state he had a license in. You can find you tube videos of this device. 

 

I live near Chicago. The news never report the status of a gun used by a criminal because the vast majority are not registered. A licensed gun would support the premise of restricting ownership by registration rules.  The deaths by guns are from gangs that have territory, rivalries, and obtain income by crime. They place little value on life. Basically societies with lower respect for the law and thus a high crime rate also place a low value on life.  What are the facts?

 

 

So let us look at the data in Europe.  “Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser – in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling: Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not.

 

The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).

 

For example, Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate. In contrast, Holland’s murder rate is nearly the worst, despite having the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe. Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns.”

 

Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: “Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence.”

 

The blue line is the mean value of the data for different communities in America. As you can see more gun ownership in a community reduces murder. Why, the criminal does not want to get shot by a citizen with a concealed gun. He can not identified them so can not shoot first. And he can not shoot everyone.

 

Drive by shooting minimized the opportunity to get shot by members of the opposite gang but reduces the chances of hitting the target. A 22 year old neighbor of a relative of mine was murdered because she wanted nothing to do with an X boy friend, gang member in jail even before jailed. The drive by attempt failed. Since she had no gun the gang member got out of the care and shot her point blank range as she hid from bullets from the car.

 

Comments

white trash Added Oct 4, 2017 - 3:01pm
Are you sure his gun's weren't purchased from Eric Holder. Fast and Furious was right next door, and all 2000 of the weapons he sold to drug dealers didn't go to Mexico.
Jeff Michka Added Oct 4, 2017 - 3:08pm
Another, "if all the concert goers had assault rifles, this wouldn't have happened."  We have to carry assault rifles to a concert?  More fear crap, And when all else fails, blame the previous administration.  wt the walking moron.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 4, 2017 - 3:39pm
If he obtained Eric Holder guns they would have been fully automatic without conversion.
 
Jeff.  this was shooting fish in a barrell.  The crowd did not know he was in the high rise building with sniper scope/ hunter scope.  The gun to fire quasi automatic with the bump stock would have to shake so his aim was poor but that didn't matter.  He just aimed at groups.
 
The crowd reacted to a shooter firing horizontal.  Actually stopping and crouching down made them a bigger target.   The only way to reduce being a target was to stand up and run like hell.   Time in the field of fire was the most important component.  
 
An assault rifle firing up at the shooter would have to one hell of a shot.   They would have a small target and the bullet would loose power and follow a ballistic path that was not practiced or the sights set up for that type of shot.  They would have likely hit the lower rooms.   A sniper rifle would be a better choice since the energy and velocity would be higher to begin with.  
 
I am not a gun owner.  I am interested in ballistics and mechanisms with an aeronautical engineering degree, planes and rockets.  Basic physics in HS covers the drop of a projectile, bullet.  
Dino Manalis Added Oct 4, 2017 - 4:30pm
Guns aren't toys and they're able to kill large numbers of people.  What happened in Nevada was premeditated.  Our surveillance needs to do a much better job, including the monitoring of ISIS correspondence.  Guns should alert authorities when fired and gun handles ought to recognize its owner's fingerprints.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 4, 2017 - 4:47pm
Jamal G., Chicago has very low gun ownership and if it wasn't for the court overturning a law, Chicago citizens could not own a gun. The courts said they can restrict but could not ban gun ownership. So the charts show low gun ownership meaning legal ownership corresponds to higher murder rates, that is Chicago.  The graph does not present illegal guns because where do you get those statistics?

The Harvard studies agree with the two charts. So you have to also show that there study was created on poor data. You can argue the exact numbers but the trend is clear.
 
You say, "Norway and Sweden, they have gun control laws. They require training, licensing, registration, it isn't a right guaranteed by law and you have to have criminal and mental health background check." They have a higher murder and suicide rate then other nations says the Harvard Study.  The murder rate is a social related issue not a gun ownership issue.  But societies with social issues try to use the simplest solution, gun ownership.
 
All the nations in Europe have similar controls as Norway and Sweden. What the study also shows that Russia with the strictest gun control laws and years of eliminating guns in the nation during the USSR period, has one of the highest rates. Not do to guns but knifes. 
 
The society in USSR and now Russia has a black market and criminal gangs.  The people violated the law to purchase things on the black market.  So society in Russia do not respect the law.   The USSR murdered thousands of people so the government did not respect life.   The state came before the citizens rights.  Murder rate is very high in such a society.
wsucram15 Added Oct 4, 2017 - 8:44pm
I saw the first chart..but the source was not good although I do agree owning a gun is a deterrent.  The past 6 years the murder rate has been higher than the previous 10 years the low being in 2010. 
Dont know where you got that data but from 1993 -2004 there was a sharp decline in murder rate by gun due to a law enacted by Clinton preventing certain guns and ammunition i believe from being sold.  Once that expired the murder rate went up slightly on 2005 by a couple of percentage points and leveled out in 2009-2010.  
Now that is the Department of Justice Report.  
Also in some of the years since 2010, the murder rate has increased slightly, 2012 was a banner year. 2013 was slightly lower but 2014 made a 2,000 less showing in deaths. 2015 though was an all time high, so far this year its been 11, 746 so its still up.
Dave Volek Added Oct 4, 2017 - 9:21pm
Canada has a homicide rate of 0.30 per 100,000 people. US has a homicide rate of 3.60 per 100,000.
 
Canada has some laws jump through for a gun owner to acquire a gun and ammunition. While many American gun owners would deplore these laws, the stats are suggesting some reasonable laws have an impact.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
 
And yes, Canada does have its criminals who obtain guns illeagelly. But again, look at the stats.
 
 
 
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 4, 2017 - 10:34pm
Jamal G., I think even the poorest trained person in Russia can tell the difference between death by knife vs death by gun shot.  Just as you question the statement that in Russia knife cause many killings because they do not have many guns. You are questioning all reports that do not match your desired outcome.   I can not argue with that.
 
Guns from Indiana, Mississippi, or Wisconsin have been identified by Chicago police because they are registered as being delivered to those states.  I am sure the Illinois and Chicago prosecutors are working on attaching guns to people.  They are breaking laws.
 
wsucram15, please do not keep your sources secrete. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 5, 2017 - 12:14am
Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.
Flying Junior Added Oct 5, 2017 - 3:25am
Los Vegas?  Is that pronounced like Los Angeles?
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 5, 2017 - 8:20am
Jamal G., I have not read the Harvard study in a few months.  I am almost sure Russia's homicide rate with knifes is worse then America.  It is I believe the highest in Europe.  You do not need a gun to kill someone.  As ISIS has shown vehicle and bombs works just fine.
 
Jeffry I like that, Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.  I will tweet that to Senator Durbin. 
 
Jamal yes politicians do want to make good people helpless.  That is power.  One of the first steps of all tyrannies is to take away guns.  That is precisely why we have the second amendment.   A tyrannical government is threatened by an armed citizenship.  USSR, China, India, and Europe which started to take away guns in the days of monarchs all took away guns so they could use force and not get shot.  The first think when trying to get a truce at the end of a civil war is to take away guns.  They never get many.  The people are not stupid Jamal.
Shane Laing Added Oct 5, 2017 - 9:04am
My perspective on this (being in the UK and ex army), is that guns don't hurt people (unless dropped on their feet) its the people pulling the trigger. I can see the argument for owning a handgun (self protection) and a rifle (single shot) or shotgun for hunting but semi-automatic (that can be converted to automatic) and automatic rifles no.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 5, 2017 - 12:24pm
a tyrannical government isn't exactly threatened by armed citizens. 
 
If that's really true why have so many taken people's guns shortly before making their lives really miserable if not killing them outright. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 5, 2017 - 12:59pm
Jamal I am in my 60's your obviously educated much later.   The thirteen colonies were divide about in 1/3s, however; the middle third did not turn in the rebels.  The guns the citizens that fought the revolutionary war were their own.  Yes they had some canons etc. that were the property of the colonial arm and also some guns.   The second amendment tight directly into the people owning guns.
 
The reason for the revolution is clearly spelled out in the Declaration of Independence.  That middle section is the least important since it applied to the time of writing.   I suggest that if you are going to speak for the founders maybe you should read what they said was the reason. 
 
If the English government was not threatened by the arm civilians they why is it called a war and why did they sign a peace treaty?  Cuba government fell to armed civilians.  And there are plenty of examples in history.  Governments do not try to take weapons away from civilians without a good reason.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 5, 2017 - 1:49pm
Hitler has noting to do with Los Vegas.  Madison's intent without citing his own words is a wild ass guess.   Britain did not allow guns on the island they controlled so those revolutions did not go anywhere.   
 
British signed the peace treaty because they were spending money to deal with armed resistance, the threat.  
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 5, 2017 - 1:58pm
That is not Madison reasoning that is a statement of the law.  The result of the requirements of the colonies approval of the Constitution.
 
American in effect only got a big standing army after WWII.  After the Civil War it has occupying troops.  And the army reduced in size when the threat of a second uprising vanished.
Jeff Michka Added Oct 5, 2017 - 6:09pm
Thomas. the decayed subatomic particle a Sutrino sez: Hitler has noting to do with Los Vegas.- Well, Hitler, it's rumored is dead, but do check with Billy Roper.  So I don't think Hitler was noting much in "Los" (sic) Vegas, and so learning to take cover in a combat shooting situation is a needed skill to attend a concert?  More crap fear mongering, Sutrino.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 5, 2017 - 10:11pm
Yes, the citizens owned guns and they were ALLOWED to because like the 2nd Amendment,
 
Statist nonsense. 
 
The BoR doesn't allow anything. It enumerates unalienable natural rights that everyone has by virtue of respirating. 
 
The government has no rights only limitations. 
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 5, 2017 - 10:18pm
 
"Political authority, or the authority of State, or the authority of Government, is something the average person virtually never questions. Most people go through their entire lives believing that their Government – although almost composed of provable criminals, cheats and liars – still has a solid basis for its political authority. Most people, whether left wing, right winigor anywhere in between on the political spectrum, are Statists: they think that Government has an inherent right to rule, using coercion if necessary.
Yet, even a cursory examination shows that, if a normal person acted like Government, they would be characterized as cunning, secretive and manipulative, and either be diagnosed as insane, or locked up as a danger to society, or both. So why do people allow and consent to such a situation?"
 
https://wakeup-world.com/2016/02/23/getting-the-idea-of-government-and-political-authority-out-of-your-mind/
 
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 6, 2017 - 1:27am
Henry Bowman:
 
"Parts of our government now operate without regard to the rights of citizens, and this philosophy of unlimited authority is taken for granted by everyone involved. Federal agents have put citizens in prison, gassed them, shot them to death, and burned them alive over tax issues involving trivial amounts of money.

Not one government employee has spent one night in jail or paid one dollar in fines. Instead, they are given paid leave, get promoted, and garner even more authority to do as they please.
 
"Worst of all is that the men and women who commit these atrocities are not acting out of deep moral purpose. It is only a job to them, a paycheck, a way to make the next VISA payment. That makes these people even more despicable, but it also makes the strategy for stopping them very simple." 
 
"Kill them, Individually, without risk to anyone else. Government employees have a strong instinct for self-preservation. Kill fifty or a hundred of them around the country, and many more will resign and look for less hazardous work. But kill them one at a time, when
others are not around. The blood of innocents helps the wrong side.
"One at a time," he repeated. "Pick your spot, use a piece of pipe, walk away, and keep your mouth shut.
 
It's ridiculously easy when the Constitution is on your side and you outnumber the enemy over five thousand to one. Good luck."
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 6, 2017 - 10:32am
An armed man is a citizen, an unarmed man is a slave.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 6, 2017 - 12:46pm
Great comments Jeffry could not add anything so let them stand for themselves.
 
No one has suggested any thing the would have prevented or significantly reduced the loss of life in Los Vegas.   We do know that Nevada has a conceal carry law and that some of the people at the event had hand guns, they talked to the media.  Modern liberals are saying citizen gun ownership will cause a wild wild west.  Not occurred from these 'country music' fans which you would thing would be more likely to like wild wild west history.  Those gun owners followed training for responsible gun owners.  Could not defend themselves of others from a sniper.  So hid or escaped.  Let the police do their job.
 
What happened in the church in Antioch tennessee is one of many examples of what a responsible gun owner, licensed gun owner does.  I will then the words of the police update tell you but I will italisize the responsible gun owners actions:

A woman was shot and killed in the parking lot of the church. She has been identified Melanie Smith, 39, of Smyrna.
 
The shooter has been identified as 25-year-old Emanuel Kidega Samson. Police have said he previously attended the church but had not been there in more than a year.
 
About an hour before the shooting, Samson had made several cryptic Facebook posts.
 
After killing the woman in the parking lot, Samson entered the church and began firing. Several people were wounded.
 
A churchgoer, 22-year-old Robert Engle, confronted Samson as he entered the church. Samson pistol-whipped Engle who struggled with him. During the struggle, Samson shot himself.
 
After Samson shot himself, Engle ran out to his vehicle, retrieved his own weapon, went back into the church and subdued Samson until police arrived
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 6, 2017 - 1:00pm
I have heard the other attempts of Stephen Paddock to commit this act of terrorism.  I see it as a process of learning.
 
All the explosives stuff he had suggest he originally though of that type of attack which others have done.  Car bomb and driving into a crowd.   The failures of much damage in Europe by a few would not insure a high death total.  Dropped as a starting point.
 
Shooting the aviation storage tanks.  Thrown into the mix without any testing of the effect of a bullet to the tanks.
 
Looking into base ball fields.  Dropped idea because the seats would be hiding places.
 
Chicago concert.  Dropped idea because he would have to load up his car and drive all those guns and ammunition to the hotel and then be bring up to many cases that were very heavy to skip notice.
 
The earlier concert in Los Vegas  has to problems.  The room he rented was not presented but if too low a floor the angle would not create a fish in a barrel opportunity.  Like the ball field people would have places to hide.   Or the girl friend would see him loading up the vehicle so she could turn him in and he needed the time in the room to prepare.
 
Sending the girl friend away and insuring a high enough room and access to his home to make personal multiple trips to bring up the heavy cases.  And the cases would hid the contents from cleaning staff.  This time he had solved the no go problems of the past.
 
Ari Silverstein Added Oct 7, 2017 - 9:13am
I think you make a lot of great arguments why gun laws are unlikely to result in reduced homicides but I think you take your argument too far.  The dot chart does not prove that higher gun ownership rates result in less murder because correlation does not equal causation.  The murder rate is high in poor neighborhoods…period.  The woman that was shot by a gang member while hiding behind a car, would have likely still been shot if she owned a gun.  After all, she might not have had it on her when she was attacked or had the wits to use it before being shot. 
 
As it relates to Stephen Paddock, it should be noted that the worst shooting in modern history occurred by a man using a shotgun living in a country with some of the strictest gun laws around.  https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/16/world/europe/anders-breivik-nazi-prison-lawsuit.html?_r=0
John Minehan Added Oct 7, 2017 - 11:38am
Mr. Gunn, great argument on the "large standing army" issue. 
 
But, "Militia" meant two things in 1787 and still does today (under the terms of the various sate military laws and militia acts): there is an "organized militia" (what we now call the "National Guard" and the Organized Reserves) and the "unorganized militia" (generally all men between 18 and 45 or so).
 
In the 19th Century, states had standing Militia units (say the 69th New York Infantry) but also had volunteer units someone would raise out of the unorganized militia (say, the 11th New York Volunteer Infantry "Ellsworth's Fire Zouaves").
 
The National Defense Act of 1903, 1916 and 1920 basically created the "One Army Concept" and made it harder to raise volunteer units out of the Unorganized Militia.  
Jeff Michka Added Oct 7, 2017 - 8:08pm
Dino Manalis actually sez: Guns should alert authorities when fired and gun handles ought to recognize its owner's fingerprints.-So rifles and handguns should come with sensors to let cops know when they are used?  Will the communication devices in rifles and handguns emit a gps signal to so they know where to "Book 'em, Dano?"  Hmmm.  Really?
Jeff Michka Added Oct 7, 2017 - 8:11pm
the Sutrino sez: Looking into base ball fields.  Dropped idea because the seats would be hiding places.-Are you sure that's why he didn't choose a baseball game?  Could it have been him with armloads of rifles and belts of ammo might have given him away?  Wow....Dino.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 8, 2017 - 10:49pm
Ari S., the murder rate is higher in poor black neighborhoods like Chicago. JUST A FACT. And the guns are often not registered to the person that has the gun.
I said the woman was assassinated point blank after a drive by shooting occurred and not return fire happened. I said criminals do not want to get shot. Without return fire not threat existed of being shot. That Ari was the point.
Thank you rot the article on Anders Breivik in Sweden. Bombs and shot gun and using Nazi language is reported. the bombs were surely illegal. It did not say the shot gun was illegally owned.

Anders Breivik doesn't change anything written. He is an example that more strict gun laws do not work since he would have done exactly what Stephen Paddock did if he has his finances. Both were willing to use bombs. Paddock tried to turn an aviation storage tank into napalm.
 
John M., The national guard is a state army.  The second amendment allows both a state army and individuals own guns which is what the Supreme Court has ruled.  A state can not use restrictions that in effect prevent people from owning guns. 
 
Jeffry, one gun manufacture made a gun that had an electric lock that recognized the owner.  A state I believe created regulations that would phase this in.  The product was a total market failure.  Those guns are no longer in production and the state does not require the feature.
 
Jeffrey I was suggesting reason not to pursue the base ball stadium.  I did learn that the hotel he had a reservation over the Lollapalooza week end said they had a policy on not promising a room.  And he called the hotel a week before the event and did not get a guarantee.   So he walked away from the reservation.
Robin the red breasted songster Added Oct 10, 2017 - 1:11pm
I think that this is hilarious.   You are trying to extrapolate from European country comparative figures on gun violence.    In the UK, for example, part of Europe, last year saw 8 deaths from handguns.   Not 8000.... 8.    Now if Holland, for example, had 10, you would say it was 25% higher rate... true.
 
I should also point out that overall rates of violence have been reducing around the world.   For example, they have halved in the UK over the last ten years.   Various reasons suggested for this... perhaps the most popular being that physically based crime is being replaced by fraud and cybercrime... which offers a better ROI tot eh criminal.
 
But the rate of firearm deaths in the USA is out of all proportion with Europe.   America leads the way by at least a factor of 40 pro-rate to the population.
 
And just to put down one obvious argument... overall levels of violent death in the UK are around one fifth that in the US... so it is not that the absence of guns leads to death being meted out by other means.
 
Forget all the bullshit about more guns making you safer.   They just don't.   They make you more vulnerable.   More vulnerable to the Black Dog (look it up)... and more vulnerable to someone stealing their weapon and using on them or another member of their family (usually a child)
 
The only reason that Americans want guns is because they like guns.   They get off on an image of themselves "enhanced" with firearms... it makes them feel more powerful. 
 
Perhaps they need this fantasy because they are increasingly slaves to the Man (tm)... stagnating living standards, plummeting social mobility and less and less real democracy.
 
No point in arguing the toss with you about this.   There is none so blind as those who will not see....
 
 
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 10, 2017 - 2:32pm
This came from the Harvard study published ~ 2006 above, "Russia’s murder rate is four times higher than the U.S. and more than 20 times higher than Norway."  Robin  Russia was in the study so they got the big dog in Europe included, Russia.  The study took what you are considering a problem into account.   
 
Your 'devil hound' {black dog} "more vulnerable to someone stealing their weapon and using on them or another member of their family," is a true statement for someone that knows you have a gun and planes to take it.   
 
Robin is not an average gun crime.  The criminals more likely to occur are those that want to rob a store with customers or employees in it.  They do not want to get shot by someone behind them before they even know that person has a gun.  
 
Robin the Los Vegas shooter planed his use of a gun.  He knew the police was likely to find him.   Killing himself was thought out long time before the day. 
 
I did not copy the interviews of criminals in jail.  I recall they said that they would choose to commit a crime where the likelihood of getting shot was the lowest.   Thus the likelihood of actually hitting the person aimed at is the lowest in a drive by shooting with a hand gun.  The distance to the person is far and often the car does not stop.   Why do they not stop get out and shoot it out with the opponents if he has a gun?  Simply Robin they would rather miss then take the risk of getting shot or the police arriving.  
 
Let me finish with responding to these liberal comments that you have mirrored from the media and politicians, "Forget all the bullshit about more guns making you safer. . . . The only reason that Americans want guns is because they like guns."  The statistics show that the every time politicians want to take guns away from the people the sales of gun spike upwards.  They are afraid that if they find themselves in a situation where they are threatened, they will not be able to purchase a gun.   Safer Robin is partially feeling that you have options and one of those options is a gun.  That equalizes a situation especially for a women that are smaller then a man and less likely to be aggressive.   The elderly also know they no longer can overpower an attacker.   The bolder criminals get like the punching out of people on the street the more reason people feel threatened.      
Robin the red breasted songster Added Oct 10, 2017 - 3:20pm
The "Black Dog" is depression, Thomas.   Studies show that gun owners are four times more likely to use a gun on themselves than on any attacker.   I think that their kids are also more likely to use one of their parents guns on a friend than the parents are on any home invader.
 
There is a great difference between "feel safe" and "be safe".   Guns in society make everyone less safe.   Empirically proven fact.   The fact that you get a buzz when you hold one, is your mind making you feel like you are John Wayne.   You are not John Wayne of course... you would probably shoot your own foot off if you tried to use your gun in anger...   Unless you yourself are certifiably insane, or the recipient of intense military style training, you would find it difficult to point a gun at a real, live, breathing, human being and pull the trigger.   If you were able to do so... you should be locked up.   If you can't, then the gun offers you no protection whatsoever.
 
You assume that everyone in society is looking to attack each other.   That is not the case in civilised parts of society.   "Home invaders"... where they still exist (smarter and more with it criminals having migrated to cyber crime long ago), are after your TV or jewels... not your life.   This is only true is sick made for TV thrillers...
 
Here we have guns for sport only... no need for "home protection".   That is what the police are for... who also, incidentally, don't carry guns here.
 
The fact that you Neanderthals still think in these crazy ways is very sad.   Still I guess you don't believe in global warming either... or that the earth is round... or that evolution is the best, most likely explanation for why the world is as it is...    You just don't like scientifically proven fact.   This article in Scientific American discusses the curious case of American attitudes to guns and tries to explain it.   I doubt that you will read it:  https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/
 
 
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 10, 2017 - 4:29pm
Robin as you can guess I did look of 'black dog' so giving us the answer is sometimes a better solution. 
 
Robin I did know that 2/3 of homicides are suicide.   But gun is one of many choices of how to commit suicide.  What is to say that if guns were not available another method would be chosen.   So blaming guns is a very weak argument against guns.  
 
Kids shooting kids is the fact that we do not instruct people on the handling of a gun.  We do not hand car keys and say go drive to your uncle Bills house a hundred miles away.  Why because they will not make it without getting in an accident.   Robin we think you can buy a gun and because you seen hundreds of movies you know how to use and handle a gun.  And the laws do not require a test to see if you actually know how to use a gun.  
 
Feeling drive liberals or at least that is how the media, advertisers, and politicians treat us.  So in this culture feelings are more important then facts in making decisions.  Your culture Robin. 
 
This is not a fact Robin, "Guns in society make everyone less safe.   Empirically proven fact."  The people in the church example above felt the opposite.  The people in gun free zones where a murder started shooting feel less safe.  The people in Los Vegas felt less safe.   The capacity to do something in response improves the feeling of safety.   You make the choice of not having a gun when you know others may have a gun.  You thus do not feel that threatened or you too would have a gun.  It is a fact that you make a choice of getting a gun because you trust yourself and others with access to that gun or not getting a gun because you do not have confidence.   
 
I did go through the Scientific American study.  That is a publication that I have read for many years and think is much of.  Chicago is a great example that more guns does mean more use of guns in crime.  But the police never, I can not remember once of the media saying a person caught for a gang shooting had a registered gun.   And I have heard Chicago media for about 50 years living within commuting distance and within the broad cast range of the next circle.
 
The Scientific American study was on the USA.  So it can not be compared to the Harvard study.  The Harvard study looked at different countries that have different social norms have different average rates.  And It makes logical sense that withing an average rate more guns in an area will result in more homicides.  But less guns means less homicides so an average is obtained.  
 
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 10, 2017 - 4:34pm
Robin the Scientific American study doesn't disagree with the two charts on murder in the USA.    My charts were over time your article is a point in time.   The dot chart is also a point in time and it clearly shows variation which agrees with the Scientific American study.  
Benjamin Goldstein Added Oct 11, 2017 - 12:58pm
I'm fine with everything but weapons of mass destruction. There. I said it.
 
You did a great job assembling the typical arguments. It's needed again and again.
 
For me the pro-gun argument is constitutional. If you can't assemble with guns, the authority can strip away your possibility to safely assemble. If you can't assemble (and all technical means of communication are controllable by the government), you can't speak in public. If you can't speak in public, you can't protect your other rights.
 
I live on a continent where nobody gets it. So I grew up with the opposite oppinion. Hillary Clinton changed my mind. Or better: Omar Mateen, the Orlando night club shooter, changed it. They still have not figured out his repeatedly stated motive and grabbed for the guns. Dubious enough.
 
BTW the crime rates correlate stronger with the level of immigration from third world countries than with anything else.
Robin the red breasted songster Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:06pm
You people are unbelievable.  Are you going to argue black is white next.
 
Just look at the stats on the USA versus sensible countries like Canada, Australia and the UK.   You are way out of whack.
 
By all means carry on arguing about the number of angels that can dance on the point of a pin if you must.
 
Your addiction to guns is killing you.  The fact that you deny that you are addicted is, of course, a common feature of addictions.
 
By the way:   one very swift way to reduce deaths:
 
Make sellers liable for any damage (aka death and maiming) that the weapons they sell cause.   Lets say $500,000 per death plus all medical expenses at cost.   Also a reasonable police estimate of the costs involved in bringing the perpetrator to justice.  Irrespective of any details.   If the gun you sell is used to kill... you pay.  A bit like the polluter pays principle.
 
This should cover both the retailer, wholesaler and manufacturer/ import agent.
 
That would mean that Paddocks suppliers would be facing a bill in the $100 Million plus level.
 
I reckon that everyone in the chain would suddenly become very concerned about who they sold weapons to and how they were looked after
Robin the red breasted songster Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:07pm
If the police are also not armed, how will the authorities deny you the right to assemble?
Robin the red breasted songster Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:10pm
The battle of Stockton Bridge, in which the locals sent the black shirts packing in the 1930's... despite police indifference... was won with fists.   Yes blood was spilt... but the fascists were faced down.
 
I guess that, if, say, you wanted to protest about the white supremacists marching down south, in America today, to be taken seriously, you need to turn up with heavy weaponry...
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:21pm
Benjamin, actually the level of violence correlated to the distance the society is farther from the laws of nature and of Natures God.  The farther from the shared first two of the Christians, Jews, and even Muslims Ten Commandments, the more these members of a society  commit homicide against other humans, the remaining eight commandments is a list of shall nots to leave not maneuvering room.
 
History has many examples of how societies gets members that do have this moral code to violate it.  The profit Mohammad started putting into Islam when he escaped from his birth place city the concept of classes of humans, lesser humans.  It is the classic method of getting your solders to kill other humans.  The solders must believe they are killing beasts that are not human like them, less then human, humans. 
 
So when you hear the word 'class' that person is creating lesser humans or acknowledging lesser humans.   Genocide is an extreme internal de-humanization of members within a community, a society, that are not worthy of life.   One thing that all governments that have created genocides have in common is a government running on man's laws created by a governing class of humans, master minds.  
 
The leading founders of America wanted to end slavery because that made a lesser human class.   One-hundred and forty years earlier British ships started to bring slaves to the colonies and a means of creating wealth by agriculture.  So the elimination of slavery was would have to wait until the principles of Natures God accepted by most of the colonies could first free them from England and a classless society established by the Constitution.  But class has a strong pull on man so it took a civil war for the principles of Laws of Nature and Natures God to rule the nation. 
 
Benjamin the pull of class brought us the socialism, a class based social structure, sold as being progressive, in actuality regressive.  Violence in American is directly related to a population that has not learned about the Laws of Nature, and the successful creation of lesser human classes.  The government class in their wisdom has orchestrated the forming of a piggy pile with classes struggling to move to a higher place. 
Benjamin Goldstein Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:34pm
Thomas: No, it really has more to do with fighting drug lords and having low level of immigration. Germany and Scandinavia had very low crime rates until fairly recently and it was not because of morals. There are other factors like a sensible birth rate.
In the United States there are other factors like fatherless children in some communities that seem to have some statistical relevance. I wouldn't know the details because this problem is virtually absent in Europe.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:49pm
Robin my comments to Benjamin are really aimed at your or those that think like you.  I am arguing black is white.   And it appears that I pierced that liberal armor.   The truth slams through it like an armor piercing bullet.
 
Robin you have to be arguing either:  black is the less human class or white is the less human class?   Because Robin, you believe in classes.  Classes by definition are not equal or there is no need for them.  
 
Canada, Australia and the UK do not have our Democratic Party that is trying to burn the Declaration of Independence and Constitution so has resorted to creating a class war, that piggy pile mentioned above.  They only have to get control of the parliament and change the law.  America has to amend the Constitution which is far harder or never loose control of the federal government.  Something England has shown is impossible.   That is how the Law of Nature via the Magna Carta and other documents got into their countries law based constitution.    
 
Your liberal politicians keep trying to "Make sellers liable for any damage"  Another failure is on the pile,  Cook County the home of the Chicago just repealed the tax on drinks with sugar.  The liberal media is saying they will have to find another way to fund pet projects.  "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money [to spend]." MT
 
Robin we are at that point of running out of money.
Robin the red breasted songster Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:50pm
Most wars in recent centuries have been fought by protagonists who believed that "God was on their side".  "Gott mitt Uns" proclaimed the belt buckles of the German troopers as they committed genocide in Russia...   That particular little conflagration cost some 50 million lives and quite a bit of suffering on the side.
 
"Marching into battle with the Lord" has been a favourite pastime ever since man first created God.
 
Class is endemic to every society.  In some societies its divisions are simply more brutal than in others.   In the USA, class is all about money.   Those with it, don't want to share it with anyone else.   Moving from the bottom to a higher "class" in America has never been more difficult... perhaps owning a gun... the means to kill other human beings... just makes some people feel like they have more power... even though they don't.    Just  one more way that they are effectively controlled.
Robin the red breasted songster Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:58pm
Thomas:  I have no idea what you are talking about now.   I think that you have veered significantly off piste.
 
Let me focus on one small area then:   if the sellers of guns don't pay for the damage caused by the weapons that they sell, and the users can't (coz the bills are too high and in many cases they are dead!), then who does pay for:
 
Medical bills for the wounded
Therapy for the traumatised
Funerals for the dead
Police time
Disruption to business
Programmes to counter the climate of fear produced by so much weaponry washing around
 
If not the gun industry... then who.
 
We taxed tobacco coz it was killing people... why not guns?
O I know... guns don't kill people... people do.  Well tobacco doesn't kill people either... smoking it does.
 
And, by the way, do you agree that silencers should also be legal?   Just in case you want to shoot someone without waking the neighbours...
 
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 11, 2017 - 3:04pm
Actually, "God is on our side" has been proclaimed for all of human existence.  As I said you have to some how convince many solders to break the natural moral code.  Government has to pit the solders families lives against the oppositions lives.  Their family are more human from personal experience then the person you meet for a fleeting few seconds on a battle field.
 
The real first question is why has the starting side gone to war in the first place?  You will find a government or society that is lead by man's laws.  The only exceptions I know of is the taking of the 'promise land' in the old testament and the defining the 'planet as the promise land' for Muslims.  Both religions however have a class structure.  So maybe these are not exceptions.   For all class structured societies have a government class. 
Jeff Michka Added Oct 11, 2017 - 8:14pm
Shane Liang sez: handgun (self protection) and a rifle (single shot) or shotgun for hunting but semi-automatic (that can be converted to automatic) and automatic rifles no. - Yeah, this "need" for semi autos for hunting....once those deer get you in their sights, it's all over...
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 11, 2017 - 8:22pm
Jeff M., thank Obama for turning a semi automatic into a near fully automatic with the bump stock.  It violates the spirit of the decades old ~ 50 yrs outlaw of automatic weapons. 
 
The second amendment addressed keeping government in check.  Personal gun made the Revolutionary War possible and other colonies without large numbers of personal gun failed to even get off the ground.  The second amendment can from the assistance of the colonies to approve the Constitution, Jeff.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 11, 2017 - 9:09pm
by the way, do you agree that silencers should also be legal?
 
Absofuckinglutely!
 
Unlike Hollywood silencers aren't silent. They do reduce the the dB but don't eliminate it. 
 
The reason to use a silencer is to reduce the stress on the ears of the shooter and those in the immediate area. 
 
You clearly don't realize that there are a significant number of us who send hundreds of rounds down range every week to maintain our skills. 
 
Then there is F-Troop's love of seeding the "evidence" during their inspections with washers and tubing so they can later claim they're parts to make silencers from so they can take your license, guns and in several cases your life. 
 
Jeff Michka Added Oct 11, 2017 - 9:14pm
Sutrino goes insane: The second amendment can from the assistance of the colonies to approve the Constitution, Jeff.  Huh?  I'll let you convene a board or commission to tell people what that means. Maybe Faux News will carry it as a "story."?"
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 12, 2017 - 8:23am
Jeffry M., the whole Bill of Rights, the first ten Amendments to the Constitution came from demands of multiple colonies.  In Congress James Madison lead the effort and used the text of the bills of rights that the colonies suggested to write I believe twelve amendments to be approved by then the states.  That is all written down history available to anyone.  Including you.
Robin the red breasted songster Added Oct 12, 2017 - 5:44pm
Hi Jeff:   I always wear ear defenders when shooting... surely much better than silencers for protecting your hearing.   Or are you worried about law suits from those you are shooting at?
Robin the red breasted songster Added Oct 12, 2017 - 5:53pm
God's laws are man's laws Thomas.   Or, if you are a believer in God, they are, at best, some men's interpretation of God's laws.   Just look at the way that the Koran (and the Bible) is interpreted by different extremist groups.
 
Of course these interpretations have always been bent to provide the greatest advantage for whoever leads the "faithful" at the time.
 
I believe that Christian Nazis did some pretty serious bending.   The interesting thing, when you read the testaments from concentration camp guards and the like, is that they did not claim to be "simply following orders" when they tossed those Zyklon B crystals into the air inlets.   They did not claim to be acting as mindless automatons.
 
No, they actually thought that they were doing the right thing, even though it was a distasteful duty that they had to perform.
 
Gas chambers were primarily introduced to ease the feelings of the executioners.
 
They thought that these things had to be done to fulfill the country's manifest destiny.   You know... to "make the country great again"
Robin the red breasted songster Added Oct 12, 2017 - 5:54pm
By the way, did not Jesus say that you should turn the other cheek?
 
So, presumably, owning a device designed to destroy another life is decidedly un-Christian by definition.   Or is some re-interpretation of the Bible going on among NRA members?
Robin the red breasted songster Added Oct 12, 2017 - 5:55pm
You know... go in peace and shoot to kill...
Robin the red breasted songster Added Oct 12, 2017 - 5:57pm
Oh Jeff:   Someone told me that another function of silencers is to conceal/ reduce mussel flash... to make it more difficult for a sniper position to be detected.   I guess that would be useful if you were hunting prey that might fire back?
John Minehan Added Oct 12, 2017 - 6:21pm
"Gas chambers were primarily introduced to ease the feelings of the executioners."
 
Read Timothy Synder's Black Earth.  It had more to do with improving the speed and efficiency of the executions.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 12, 2017 - 7:54pm
Robin and Jeff the flash of the gun is the method used to spot a sniper.  The flash identified the location of the shooter in the hotel.  Machine guns have a cone shaped fixture on the end to throw the flash forward to keep the flash as small as possible.  other fixtures may divide the flash and send it out two side ports.
Jeff Michka Added Oct 12, 2017 - 8:56pm
The Sutrino finally brings out the Barak Obama card, like all "good" rightists must do sooner or later in order to properly "lay blame" on someone.  Hey Sutrino....I know you're a bit dense, but even you should know Obama isn't president any longer: Jeff M., thank Obama for turning a semi automatic into a near fully automatic with the bump stock.  It violates the spirit of the decades old ~ 50 yrs outlaw of automatic weapons.-Okay, I'll send him a thank you card...geezus, you people...
Robin the red breasted songster Added Oct 13, 2017 - 4:23am
Yes John, that too.   But stress among the Germans tasked with extermination was a very big concern.   "Nazis: A warning from history" is a good education on this
Robin the red breasted songster Added Oct 13, 2017 - 4:29am
Here's a thought:   How about if every legally owned gun had to have a flash enhancer plus a device to instantly tell law enforcement that it had been discharged... together with GPS co-ordinates?   Certainly a great idea for those sold for "protection".
 
Of course better still:  forget about guns completely and have panic alarms linked to the local cop shop.   Plus maybe a "smoke cloak" device to disorientate and frighten an intruder.
 
You should do all that you can to promote non lethal means of protection... if you feel you need.   Personally I don't think you do... I think that you are suffering from paranoia.   Possibly brought on by all those guns that are around in US society...
Jeff Michka Added Oct 15, 2017 - 8:03pm
Or is some re-interpretation of the Bible going on among NRA members-Yup, just turn the other high capacity magazine...

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