Why Europe Should Rule the World

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Recently I wrote an article asking if the US just disappeared, what the world would be like. Well, I think it's fair to say that someone should be running the world, and I think it shouldn't be the US.

What the world needs is to be run by a United States of Europe.

Why?

For better or worse, the modern world is already a macrocosm of Europe. Except for very few examples,  historical European expansion has touched, manipulated and transformed the world into what it is today, it is only fair that it should decide its destiny.

Put together, a fully United Europe (including Russia), as one country, would be by far the largest economy and hold the largest and most developed military in the world. 

From the influence of Alexander the Great, to the Roman Empire, to the many Spanish colonies, to the mighty Russian frontier, to the "sun never setting on the British Empire," our world languages, cultures, systems of government, legal codes, economic infrastructures and commerce, etc. have a founding basis in Europe.

In a way, us outliers are all Europe's sons. In this fragmented and chaotic world we live in, maybe it's time dad should come back in to run his house...

A world state has been the dream of Western Civilization, and most agree the US wouldn't be the appropriate overlord. What about Europe?

Comments

Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 9, 2017 - 11:45am
Exceptionalist heads are about to explode all across WB. This is going to be fun.
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2017 - 11:46am
Michael - aah but our mathematics, writing, science and agriculture all emerged out of the Middle East - the part that is now Iraq.
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 9, 2017 - 12:03pm
Hey Opher,
For sure! Just the example of China itself has had many scientific and technological achievements, but I was thinking in particular about how Europe has manipulated (for better or worse) these achievements to their own ends....
As an example, gunpowder was a Chinese invention: used for fireworks and displays. But what did Europe do with it???
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2017 - 12:13pm
Michael - yes - I can see what you mean. I was just throwing something else into the mix. It could be argued that Europe is already doing what you suggest. The world is already ruled by Europe.
Katharine Otto Added Oct 9, 2017 - 12:23pm
Michael,
I don't believe in world government.  It is the problem, not the solution, according to me.  I like the idea of diverse countries, cultures, and beliefs, with sharing done by mutual agreement and learning from each other.  
 
That European values rule the world now is evidence that the imperialists are doing a lousy job of creating peace and prosperity, but for the selected few, at the expense of the many.
 
The Europeans have never been able to get along with each other, nor have the Americans, so what makes you think more power would be better?
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2017 - 12:30pm
Katharine - perhaps the problems we now have are too global to allow nations to operate - with all the conflict and war that creates. What with multinationals, environmental destruction, pollution, international crime, Tax havens, superpower involvement, proxy wars, we have situations that can only be solved by global action - perhaps a federation?
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 9, 2017 - 12:42pm
I like the idea of a world state because it would give us the OPPORTUNITY at least to end things like world hunger, unemployment, etc. 
I'm tired of different nationalities (including Americans)  thinking they're better than others. I think a world state would provide the best chance for world peace, which I think should be everyone's passion. 
I realize that's entirely naive of me on a massive scale, but we can always dream...
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2017 - 12:52pm
I agree Michael. It is the only way to put a stop to poverty, war and inequality.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 9, 2017 - 1:08pm
Too many things here not being considered. Centralization breeds unresponsiveness, fewer running things breeds even greater corruption, too many different cultures that are utterly incompatible, absurd notions of supremacy of the state, many billions of people don't like or want to live like Europeans, there aren't enough resources for everyone to live like Europeans, billions will die resisting this nonsense as the only way it'll happen is by force. 
 
EU is failed. United States of Europe is impossible. Neoliberalism is a joke. We're about to see how well this nonsense will work in Catalonia.
George N Romey Added Oct 9, 2017 - 1:09pm
No world government. It would be purely evil and the few countries that still have their own decent country would be destroyed. Its like thinking Wal Mart will be good for workers.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 9, 2017 - 1:11pm
It would be purely evil 
 
Damn Skippy.
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 9, 2017 - 1:11pm
It would be purely evil
 
The idea of it is pure evil.
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 9, 2017 - 1:48pm
Jeffry,
Centralization breeds unresponsiveness, fewer running things breeds even greater corruption, too many different cultures that are utterly incompatible, absurd notions of supremacy of the state,
This isn't true at all. Take the United States for example! Remember the Articles of Confederation? Didn't work so well. We needed centralization for stability and good government. The US has always had 
too many different cultures that are utterly incompatible
and in general, we get along just fine. The US is a great country, we always have been because of our diversity, not in spite of it!
Many billions of people don't like or want to live like Europeans
I don't know where these people are...
there aren't enough resources for everyone to live like Europeans.
This isn't true, and doesn't have to be the case. Just because Europe should run everything doesn't mean that everyone has to live just like them...
 
John Minehan Added Oct 9, 2017 - 2:03pm
I'm not sure "Europe" means anything.
 
Now, Afro-Eurasia in a Mackinder World Island way might mean a great deal . . . .  
John Minehan Added Oct 9, 2017 - 2:05pm
As for Countries that were never really colonized by Europe, you might add Ethiopia.  (Other than a brief occupation by Italy in the 1930s . . . .)
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 9, 2017 - 2:10pm
We needed centralization for stability and good government. 
 
No such thing exists, ever has or ever will. 
 
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 9, 2017 - 2:15pm
Jeffry,
Try not to be a "the-glass-is-half-empty" kind of guy! In general, the US has done pretty well for itself. 
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2017 - 2:18pm
Well we've never had a global federation so nobody knows. All is conjecture.
I believe that man has the intelligence to put together a federated global body that could get around the negative possibilities. Why not?
All obstacles are surmountable.
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2017 - 2:19pm
The United Nations has the seeds of possibility. It just needs overhauling, making democratic and putting in safeguards.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 9, 2017 - 2:21pm
Cikraji don't be obtuse. Anyone with any sense knows the glass was broken long ago. The rest of your comment is simply niave. 
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 9, 2017 - 2:38pm
Jeffry,
I'm fully aware that this dream is unrealistic. In a comment I already said:
I realize that's entirely naive of me on a massive scale, but we can always dream
What you're not realizing, and I am, is that the glass was never broken, there just never was one to begin with in the first place!
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 9, 2017 - 2:41pm
Opher,
I always loved the United Nations! I just wish they had more power and control. I think they could do much more to better the plight of the suffering people of the world, but they're often limited by the quarreling powers (including the US).
John Minehan Added Oct 9, 2017 - 3:18pm
"Well we've never had a global federation so nobody knows. All is conjecture.







I believe that man has the intelligence to put together a federated global body that could get around the negative possibilities. Why not?
All obstacles are surmountable."
 
I've always agreed with the Tofflers that anything like that would begin with more regional unions, like the EU or NAFTA . . . or perhaps whatever "One Belt/One Road: will turn into over time . . . . 







 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 9, 2017 - 3:21pm
there just never was one
 
Excellent! I'll modify my usage to reflect that. 
 
Leroy Added Oct 9, 2017 - 4:13pm
Funny article, Michael.  The Europeans (although I don't agree) are responsible for screwing up the world as we know it today.  Europe had its chance and blew it.  Even when they controlled the world, they couldn't hold themselves together.  
 
One world government might sound good: eliminating hunger, climate change, jock itch; but it can't happen any other way than at the barrel of a gun.  That's the only way to make everyone compliant like sheep.  The sheepdogs, of course, would be the ones advocating a one world government on the assumption they would be on top, living the good life ruling the lesser humans.
 
The fact of the matter is that since WWII and the emergence of the US as a superpower, the world has been at relative peace.  Relatively few people have perished in wars compared to the past.  Under US leadership, the world has come closest to utopia.  Yeah.  Let's screw that up by creating a one-world, communist government run by Europe.  Rah. Rah. 
 
No.  We need to become less like Europe.  The more the US becomes like Europe, the more we wallow in the mud with them.  The US needs to get back to its roots.
 
 
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 9, 2017 - 4:21pm
Hey Leroy,
Thanks for thoughts! I think there are a couple people on here that would disagree with this statement of yours:
Under US leadership, the world has come closest to utopia.  
 
But from my standpoint, this quote is classic:
We need to become less like Europe. The more the US becomes like Europe, the more we wallow in the mud with them. The US needs to get back to its roots.
 
The thing is that if we get back to our roots, we get back to Europe, where we came from!
 
 
George N Romey Added Oct 9, 2017 - 4:30pm
Anything will become corrupt.  Case closed. 
Saint George Added Oct 9, 2017 - 6:35pm
I like the idea of a world state because it would give us the OPPORTUNITY at least to end things like world hunger, unemployment, etc. 
 
Um, how, precisely?
Leroy Added Oct 9, 2017 - 7:20pm
"The thing is that if we get back to our roots, we get back to Europe, where we came from!"
 
Our roots are in the Age of Enlightenment.  We were influenced by many great philosophers and writers of the time, mainly Europeans.  Once we had our revolution, we encouraged revolutions across our great dustball.  Although the Age of Reason was heavily influenced by Europeans, it is uniquely American.  It wasn't theory for us.  We didn't just talk about it, we implemented it.  We showed the world the way.
 
 
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2017 - 7:53pm
Leroy - that relative peace since the Second World War only applies to Europe and the USA. The rest of the world has been in one great ferment of war, poverty and migration. Billions have died and the troubles are plenty. Try living in parts of Africa, the Middle East, South America or Asia if you want to see genocide, exploitation, drought, famine and chaos. And who is stirring it up and profiting?
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2017 - 7:54pm
Vote for me George. I promise I won't become corrupt.
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2017 - 7:56pm
Leroy - I agree that the roots of our emergence came through the age of enlightenment when we basically dumped theocracies and religion. That's when we developed science. But it's not our roots. US culture has its roots in European culture and that goes back further.
Saint George Added Oct 9, 2017 - 8:11pm
 aah but our mathematics, writing, science and agriculture all emerged out of the Middle East
 
Calculus emerged out of the Middle East?
 
I don't think so.
Saint George Added Oct 9, 2017 - 8:16pm
someone should be running the world
 
Why?
Saint George Added Oct 9, 2017 - 8:18pm
we basically dumped theocracies and religion
 
We didn't "dump religion."
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2017 - 8:20pm
Saint - mathematics - and the concept of numbers came out of that Middle East region - actually Egyptians I believe were the earliest recorded evidence. Mathematics developed under the Greeks. That's my understanding.
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2017 - 8:23pm
Saint - in terms of 'running the world' - as many things are now global we need policies and structures to control them. At present we have chaos and exploitation. It needs regulating.
Whether that is through a 'government' or through federation or agreement. Something needs doing to curb the multinationals, sort tax, pollution, environmental destruction, poverty, war, international crime, cyber attacks, migration, droughts, famines, global warming..........................
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2017 - 8:27pm
Saint - Europe has and the Us will follow. The founding Fathers set up the States so that it couldn't turn into a theocracy such as had created so much intolerance, war and held Europe back. There was a strong atheist presence.
Leroy Added Oct 9, 2017 - 8:40pm
"Billions"
 
You would be hard pressed to prove that anywhere near "billions" have died as a result of war since WWII.
Leroy Added Oct 9, 2017 - 8:48pm
"I agree that the roots of our emergence came through the age of enlightenment when we basically dumped theocracies and religion. That's when we developed science. But it's not our roots. US culture has its roots in European culture and that goes back further.
 
I am not denying the US has its roots in European culture.  The departure from Europe came in the Age of Enlightenment.  We threw off the divine right of kings and focused on the individual.  Now, you are suggesting that we revert back to the times of old, replacing kings with divine world leaders and forgetting about the individual in favor of the state.  It was objectionable then and it is objectionable now.  I have never understood Europe's fascination with royalty.
 
 
John G Added Oct 9, 2017 - 9:08pm
“He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.” 
~ George Orwell, 1984
Way too many Americans believe their national(ist) myths.
Michael B. Added Oct 9, 2017 - 11:55pm
I wanna see Lady GaGa's real tits.
white trash Added Oct 9, 2017 - 11:56pm
Europe can't rule Europe. Never Have, never will. They need USA to rescue and protect.
Saint George Added Oct 10, 2017 - 12:04am
Saint - in terms of 'running the world' - as many things are now global we need policies and structures to control them.
 
We already do. They're called "markets" and "voluntary contracts."
 
At present we have chaos and exploitation. It needs regulating.
 
Actually, chaos and exploitation exist in places like North Korea, Cuba, and other non-market societies where someone controls other people under penalty of pain, imprisonment, and death. That's the kind of system you want? Great.
Saint George Added Oct 10, 2017 - 12:08am
mathematics - and the concept of numbers came out of that Middle East region - actually Egyptians
 
1) I didn't ask about "mathematics in general". I was very specific and you chose not to pay attention. I asked if CALCULUS, specifically, came out of the Middle East. The answer is no, it did not. It was a completely European idea, based on earlier European ideas. It was discovered more or less simultaneously be Newton in England and Leibnitz in Germany.
 
2) Most of the basic concepts in mathematics, including the invention of zero and the invention of algebra came from India, not from the Middle east. Additionally, although the symbols, "1, 2, 3, . . ." are often called "Arabic numerals" (as opposed to Roman numerals such as, "I, II, III, IV, V . . ."), they are actually Indian – not Arabic – in origin.
John G Added Oct 10, 2017 - 3:41am
Oh good god. It sets up its own pedantry ops.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 5:10am
Leroy - the millions start to add up. I've never done the maths but it is certainly tens of millions. I wouldn't be surprised if it is not a billion.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 5:13am
Leroy - I have no love of royalty nor wish to have a world King. I just want a global body to control global issues, rein in and regulate multinationals and protect us and the environment from the excesses. So many issues that desperately need addressing on a global basis. At the moment they have a free rein and are literally getting away with murder.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 5:14am
White Trash - when?
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 5:16am
Saint - those markets clearly do not work. The environmental destruction is extreme. Multinationals get away with murder. Pollution, crime, tax evasion, human rights violations...............
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 5:17am
Saint - not sure about Cuba. There are some things I like about it. But no - I'm looking at a body that can control what is going on globally - not a repressive government.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 5:19am
Saint - note - I said mathematics not calculus. India certainly was the seat of a lot of maths. Debateable which came first.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:40am
Spanish Army surrounds Catalan Parliament to seize it if Independence is declared. 
 
A govt that won't honor the wishes of the voters/people is an illigetimate tyrannical one. 
 
That's why freemen have guns to prevent this contempt from tyrants. 
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:57am
Jeffry your logic is incredible to behold.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2017 - 7:03am
Nonetheless it's spotfuckingon dear head teacher. 
 
Because the people are disarmed the fuckin' government is free to do whatever it wants no matter what the people have overwhelming told it to do. 
 
Declare Independence and kill every fuckin' one of those bastards that try to prevent it. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2017 - 7:09am
The people are supreme not the fuckin' government or the tyrants who deny that supremacy. 
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 7:20am
Charming.
The trouble is that in reality it is a tad more complex than that. If you watched the massive counter demonstration you might notice that not everybody wants independence. What you are stupidly suggesting is civil war - dummy - the killing of millions and the destruction of a country. Your simplistic thinking is childish.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2017 - 7:36am
The opinion of a statist hall monitor is of no nevermind. 
 
Government needs to be brought to heel before lives will get better across the planet. 
 
Yes, lots of people are going to die but not a pussy like you. 
 
Go play with your 5000 whatthefuckever. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2017 - 8:26am
Pon's impotent rage at Farage in open session illustrates just how afraid they are of the people and the collapse of their joke of a so-called government.
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 10, 2017 - 8:33am
Jeffry,
That's why freemen have guns to prevent this contempt from tyrants.
 
Because the people are disarmed the fuckin' government is free to do whatever it wants no matter what the people have overwhelming told it to do.

Declare Independence and kill every fuckin' one of those bastards that try to prevent it.
 
The thinking here is completely correct... for the 18th century.
A major reason Americans are so passionate about guns, and why the 2nd Amendment was enacted, is the concept that if government goes wrong, the people can rise up and correct it. For the technology of the time (18th century), this made complete sense. It was an age when the firearms of farmers was (roughly) of the same strength as lightly armed soldiers in the field. But this isn't the 18th century anymore..
 
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 10, 2017 - 8:39am
Some of you are thinking that I'm arguing for a return to monarchy, a regression of government to that of kings again. That's ridiculous. 
And I'm not trying to undermine the achievements of non-Europeans. Where certain sciences originated is immaterial to this argument.
One of the many reasons why a world state, run by this "United States of Europe" would make sense is the method of representative government!
The USA has what's known as the Presidential System. It hasn't worked anywhere else in the world. Europe's model is much more stable and exportable: the Parliamentary System. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2017 - 8:44am
Yeah, after all EU Parliament works so well the MEP's are scared to death it's crumbling beneath their feet as Pons so vividly illustrated when Farage wiped the floor with Pons cucked beta ass.
Leroy Added Oct 10, 2017 - 8:59am
"Europe's model is much more stable and exportable: the Parliamentary System."
 
The European model is the EU, an autocratic form of government that bypasses the will of the people.  Yes, it would do well as a world government, one step away from outright communism.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 10, 2017 - 9:00am
Michael
 
At first sight yes, better than the US anyway, because we learned a bit through our own history. The US hasn't had that chance yet due to young age and has to repeat our fuckups first to regret them later LOL
 
But then, this history is based on greed and exploitation. So not too rosy picture after all. And Europe is still doing that, don't forget - on order or with the complicity of the US -> globalization.....
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 9:06am
Jeffry - they are not afraid of a silly little man like Farage; they are infuriated by his rudeness. He's an arrogant little shit.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 10, 2017 - 9:06am
BTW
 
One of the many reasons why a world state, run by this "United States of Europe" would make sense is the method of representative government!
 
You mean a method of representative government in the sense that the representants represent the economy as it is today ? Better try our Swiss direct democracy ;-)
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2017 - 9:08am
He's an arrogant little shit.
 
Takes one to know one dear hall monitor.
 
Leroy Added Oct 10, 2017 - 9:09am
"Leroy - the millions start to add up. I've never done the maths but it is certainly tens of millions. I wouldn't be surprised if it is not a billion."
 
Some folks are number challenged.  I get your point.  I believe it was the governor of Virginia that claimed guns killed 300 million a year in the US.  You are in good company. 
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 9:09am
Michael/Leroy - I don't think the EU government, in its current form is one to aim for. It requires making more democratic. But the British parliament is probably the best way forward - representative democracy. It just needs a bit of an overhaul too though. We need to get rid of the upper house and do away with lobbying, corruption and make MPs more accountable.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2017 - 9:12am
We need to get rid of the upper house and do away with lobbying, corruption and make MPs more accountable.
 
Bwahaawwww. You mean make it something it isn't. Bwahaawwww.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 9:49am
Jeffry - speak English.
Dino Manalis Added Oct 10, 2017 - 9:52am
Like the U.S., Europe needs to get its economic and fiscal house in order and stop the refugee crisis with stabler regimes in North Africa and the Middle East.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 9:59am
Dino - we seem to have done our best to destabilise them and then moan because they want to escape the war, mayhem, poverty and corruption we created for them. As you say - time to stabilise and sort it out.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2017 - 10:03am
Jeffry - speak English.
 
Oh no!!!!!
 
The hall monitor just slapped my hands with it's ruler.
 
 
Oh the humanity!
 
 
 
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 10:06am
Jeffry - the kids I taught were far more mature than you. Are you sure you had an adult job?
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 10, 2017 - 10:15am
we seem to have done our best to destabilise them and then moan because they want to escape the war, mayhem, poverty and corruption we created for them.
 
My words.
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 10, 2017 - 10:16am
OK… Europe should run things but I’m left wondering WHY Europe?  Other than you (Europe) influenced everybody else (and you dislike America).  But again, Why Europe?  What exactly does Europe have to offer now?  Today?  After reading the original post; I still don’t know.
 
As for a world state being the dream of Western civilization; that has usually been the case only of various tyrants in charge at the time.  Western though in general has abandoned that cause.  The more enlightened Western view would be one of self-determination.  Government as chosen by the people of that regions/nation.
 
George and Jeffrey are right in that the very idea of a world government is an evil one.  Heaven protect us from such a fate!
 
Michael states that “In general, the US has done pretty well for itself”, but that is because our founders started with the basic understanding that government is a necessary evil.  Knowing this, they put in place checks and balances to mitigate that fact.  And THOSE are the roots we should return too… but will never see again.  The system worked, for well over 200 years; we had a good run.
 
OG >> The United Nations has the seeds of possibility. It just needs overhauling, making democratic and putting in safeguards.
 
Uggg…  I just don’t see overhauling such a bloated bureaucratic mess.  I would just as soon the U.S. and the U.N. part ways.  Perhaps we can then be shown our folly with Europe taking it over (moving its headquarters and paying the bills) for a while.  You’re welcome to it…
 
Leroy is right, overall, in that the United States has been a tremendous force for good since WWII (saving many lives).
 
But no nation can ever completely temper humanities inclination towards death and destruction.  Despite her (the U.S.) best efforts, millions and millions have indeed died since WWII; most due to Communism (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim ll Sung).  Today, fascism (via Islam) is trying to reemerge as a major source of death and destruction.  (And Europe has opened her gates to those who would destroy her.)
 
For me; it all gets back to faith in government equals faith in humanity.  Faith/Trust in either is absurd to me.  The main reason we need to avoid world government is so there may always be some hope that somewhere a seed of freedom may still exist.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 10, 2017 - 10:25am
the United States has been a tremendous force for good since WWII (saving many lives).
 
Ah-huh......make the balance between saving and killing. When you don't kill anybody first the necessity is less that there's anybody to save after.....
 
Maybe you should talk to General Wesley Clark about that matter.
Leroy Added Oct 10, 2017 - 11:09am
Being ruled by Europe would be tantamount to being ruled by the Caliphate.  That is Europe's fate.  Maybe ours too, if we don't wake up.
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 10, 2017 - 11:15am
Hello Lynn,
Firstly, I am an American by nationality, a European by ancestry. I gather you are too. You write:
 
Other than you (Europe) influenced everybody else (and you dislike America). But again, Why Europe? What exactly does Europe have to offer now? Today?
 
Secondly, I do not dislike America. Quite the contrary. If you look at Europe as a whole, what you see is a BASIC model for what the world should be like in total. Just a few of these things are:
 
1) Multilingual and multiethnic, and people in general get along well
2) The best beer in the world
3) The most efficient transportation systems (bus/tram/rail/auto/plane/bicycle/pedestrian)
4) Well developed economies and commerce
5) Use of the metric system
6) The best beer in the world
7) Most traditionally vibrant economies of the world 
8) Most equitable and developed health care systems
9) A history of running the rest of the world (see above map)
10) The best beer in the world
11) The best systems of conservation, recycling, general respect for the environment
12) Best standards of living in the world
Leroy Added Oct 10, 2017 - 11:20am
Maybe you have a point: the best beer in the world, or at least the best mass produced beer.  Hard to beat the American Craft brews.
Leroy Added Oct 10, 2017 - 11:23am
And, another good point on the metric system.  How could any rational nation use any other system?  Americans are pretty stupid in that regard.
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 10, 2017 - 11:23am
Rome fell not because of the barbarians but because of the social and moral decay of the society.  The barbarians just came in and cleaned up the mess.
 
Europe is indeed lost.  They opened their gates to the barbarians (just as Rome did).
 
We (the U.S.) too are likely lost as well for the same reason.
 
The left embraces Islam as a friend thinking "the enemy of my enemy (conservatives, Christians, Western civilization) is my friend"  But if they really read and understood Muhammad they would know their fate is no different from any other infidels (extortion, slavery, and death... generally in that order).
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 10, 2017 - 11:40am
MC >> Firstly, I am an American by nationality, a European by ancestry. I gather you are too.
 
I am indeed (genetically) one of the most diverse mutts in the world.  Mostly European with a little Creole.
 
BUT... by the grace of God, I'm a Texan (birth, heart, and soul)!
 
MC >> Secondly, I do not dislike America.
 
My apologies for the assumption.  Based on the posting, I assumed you were on the left. :)
 
MC >> Just a few of these things (why Europe should rule)
 
Thanks for the list... it really helps. :)
 
1) Beer
2) Socialism
3) Beer
 
Got it! :)
 
As for as Europe or anybody else acquiring global dominion; we Texans have an old saying.  "Come and take it!“  ;P
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 11:52am
Lynn - well I can at least understand where you are coming from even if I don't agree with you. It is good to discuss things with people who think differently.
America has been running the world for its own ends. My concern is how we can control and regulate the multinational machines that are presently creating mayhem. There are so many global issues that need dealing with. I have seen no answers for this coming from anywhere.
The UN is not right. It needs to be made to work. I take your point about tyranny seriously. But just as the American constitution had safeguards built into it I am sure we could create a system that would work.
Leaving the situation as it is creating war, mass poverty, exploitation and massive environmental destruction. Meanwhile there is tax evasion and international criminals getting away with murder.
What is the solution?
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 10, 2017 - 11:52am
Hey Lynn,
I'm venturing to guess you haven't spent much time in Europe, so you wouldn't know.... you don't know what you don't know...
Well, I think Texans said the same thing when they wanted to separate from the Union at the start of the Civil War.
And yes, the Union did come and take it!
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2017 - 12:29pm
so you wouldn't know.... you don't know what you don't know...
 
I once spoke with a texan in texas about living in and traveling in other countries. 
 
His answer was something like: "Whell, all I know fer sure is I ain't got no call to be goin' off all them places like that there when I got me everythin' I need right heah". Then he spit out the juice from his chaw. Damn proud of himself. 
 
How does he know? Had he been around the world even once (RTW Ticket) and taken a year to do it I could understand that he was basing his decision on knowledge rather than what his mama taught him.
 
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 10, 2017 - 12:42pm
Jeffry,
Eh, I've been to Texas a couple times. It's okay, really flat and boring drives. I was amazed how many unattractive women there are in Houston... but in general it's okay. They're pretty good with fostering a good business climate.
Many Texans have these one liners that they feel compelled to droll out to make them sound tough or something, that have no real tough-guy basis anyway. Kinda cute though. My favorite is "DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS!"
Sounds tough, huh? Actually it comes from signs the state had to put up to stop idiots from littering on the highways there.... no joke.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 12:54pm
I went through Texas a couple of times in my travels. Very unfriendly, belligerent people, aggressive and looking for a fight. Very conventional and not much connection to the rest of the world. But that is a limited experience and I'm sure not all Texans are like that.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2017 - 12:56pm
I had a chief engineer from East Texas. Good Chief and funny fucker too. One of our early sails together he came up to the wheel house to make a report. I was checking my new 2nds work on chart corrections. The chief asked me with a big grin if I couldn't take my attention away from them thar water maps (charts) long enough to take his report as he needed to pump bilge (use the head) in the worst way. 
 
Leroy Added Oct 10, 2017 - 12:56pm
"Hey Lynn,
I'm venturing to guess you haven't spent much time in Europe, so you wouldn't know.... you don't know what you don't know..."
 
I've lived and worked and traveled in Europe.  I agree with what Lynn says.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 1:02pm
Seems like a lot of fear of Islam has been pumped up in the States. I've been hearing for a while that Europe is lost. Heard the same when the Huguenots, the Jews, the Pakistanis, the Sikhs, the Irish and the Jamaicans came over.  
I think it's important to keep it in proportion. Europe has had a long relationship with Islam. We have some beautiful architecture because of it and a richer gene pool. I don't think the present round of immigration will have too much of an effect.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 1:03pm
Michael - Bavarian beer is the best in the world - a bit lethal though.
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 10, 2017 - 1:04pm
OG >> I can at least understand where you are coming from even if I don't agree with you.
 
Same here...
 
>> It is good to discuss things with people who think differently.
 
Agreed... I do value the discussion.
 
>> America has been running the world for its own ends.
 
Like Europe of old... the U.S. has major, superpower level, influence; as did the USSR and as does China and Europe today.  But I would not categorize that as "running the world".
 
What this really gets down to is many (on the left) want to limit the influence of capitalism and expand the influence of "democratic" socialism.  I understand that.  I disagree with it... but understand it.
 
>> My concern is how we can control and regulate the multinational machines that are presently creating mayhem. There are so many global issues that need dealing with. I have seen no answers for this coming from anywhere.
 
We agree that there are worldwide problems, though not necessarily what those problems/solutions are.  My stance is they need to be solved through cooperation of sovereign nations, not an authoritative world entity/government.  I don't trust it and never will.
 
Is that system working well today... no; but I'm not ready to replace it with what I see will lead to world-wide tyranny.
 
>> The UN is not right. It needs to be made to work.
 
I just think it's too far gone.  Better to start over.
 
>> I take your point about tyranny seriously.
 
Thank you.  I take your point about worldwide problems seriously.
 
>> But just as the American constitution had safeguards built into it I am sure we could create a system that would work.
 
America's constitution succeeded because it started with the basic principle of government as a necessary evil and something that must be limited.  Without that understanding I don't see a workable system (on any scale); and I don't see anybody who wants a world government with an inkling of that understanding.  Thus, my adamant opposition.
 
>> Leaving the situation as it is creating war, mass poverty, exploitation and massive environmental destruction. Meanwhile there is tax evasion and international criminals getting away with murder.
 
I think you're just describing the human condition.  None of the things listed are anything new.
 
>> What is the solution?
 
What is the solution for the human condition?  Remaining secular... there is none.  It's like asking me to design a perpetual machine or produce an unstoppable force to overcome an immovable object.
 
What we're debating now is replacing something that isn't working with something that (in my opinion) won't work and will cause even more problems.
 
What do I suggest?  That a few (forget the world, forget the U.N.) likeminded sovereign nations get together and try to work things out (one problem at a time); then see who they can get to join them.
 
Do I really think that’s possible… less and less
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 10, 2017 - 1:08pm
MC >> I'm venturing to guess you haven't spent much time in Europe
 
Never been there.  I once thought about it, but that was before 9/11.  I haven't traveled much since then.  I hate airports and the kabuki theater (security) they make everyone go through.  I would love to see the world... but it's just not worth the hassle it takes to get there.  Invent teleportation and I may reconsider. :)
 
MC >> so you wouldn't know.... you don't know what you don't know...
 
We're all ignorant of something.  Me Europe... you (obviously) Texas.  But thanks for the arrogant (world traveled leftist) condescension.  It fits...
 
I once had a Muslim explain to me that I couldn't really understand the Koran because I didn't speak or read Arabic.  But he would be gracious enough to tell me what and how to think on the writings of Muhammad.  Same thing...
 
MC >> Well, I think Texans said the same thing when they wanted to separate from the Union at the start of the Civil War.  And yes, the Union did come and take it!
 
Thank God... otherwise we would all be speaking fascist German right now.
 
We lost the Alamo too... I'm OK with both in the grand scheme of things.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 1:08pm
Leroy - I've lived and travelled through Europe and the USA. Loved them both but prefer Europe. Too many gangs, drugs, guns, racism and violence, with poor education in America for me. Much worse than Europe for that. But I like most American people - they are in general very hospitable, I like the can-do attitude and the beautiful countryside. I can even put up with the odd arrogant, intolerant bastard.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 10, 2017 - 1:09pm
Michael C., I prefer a more realistic view of history. Your egnoring anything that came before the Enlightenment about 500 years ago. That map would look totally different at different points in history. So will the world picture that will follow todays be better because it is the newest. Please present a reason why today is the most important then any previous one or anyone in the future.
What grabbed me is your ending, "appropriate overlord." That to me is a problem. The history of the world is the history of class societies. The end results of every single one of the is collapse, without exception. You see the problem with class societies is that barriers must be in place to restrict the movement of people between the classes. And in the end the people in the lower classes revolt against being denied the same rights and wealth and power of the upper classes. That is the European you want to be an overlord.
May I point out that classes by definition creates poverty. Inequality is the definition of the existence of poverty. Poverty is the lower or lowest amount of wealth. The amount of wealth is not important just the range. And socialism or any system with classes can say equal distribution of wealth but it is always in the context of a class.
 
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 1:11pm
Thomas - it doesn't get more unequal that the USA does it?
William Stockton Added Oct 10, 2017 - 1:27pm
I love this phrase and so true.
The only thing Europe loves more than a land war is a dictator.
 
The only reason Europe has been peaceful as of late is directly attributed to the dominance of American militarily throughout the world with 700 military bases.
Enjoy your peaceful day compliments of the American military!
 
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 10, 2017 - 1:57pm
@Lynn: I very well may be ignorant about Texas. So, educate me! What is it that is unique about Texas that makes it so special to you? I'm from Ohio, and in comparison, like I said, the business climate is better in Texas. For sure! Also, we appear to have hotter women up here, by far. Sorry, just an observation....
 
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 2:02pm
William Ha ha. I can't believe that you believe that.
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 10, 2017 - 2:07pm
@ Thomas, you have:
Please present a reason why today is the most important then any previous one or anyone in the future.
 
Today is important because we've reached the point where the Earth is basically "full", there are really very few frontiers left.
 
Without the "safety valve" of places for people to run to, we have to begin to all get along with each other. Europe has had much experience with this, and in general is in good shape now to be a role model.
 
Lynn was poking me with it, but it's true, much of what is great about Europe has to do with some variation of socialism. It is a great tragedy that generations of propaganda have largely turned Americans off on the benefits of well-planned socialism: particularly those people that stand the most to gain.
 
William Stockton Added Oct 10, 2017 - 2:13pm
opher, then don't believe.  It is of no consequence.
 
And yet, please enjoy your peaceful day of writing therein UK with your comments here on WB . . .  compliments of American military dominance and American technology on an American website.
 
gawd I bet you Brits hate it! 
You have been conquered by the Yanks in every way conceivable. 
 
However, enjoy your peaceful day . . . on us . . . while belligerently claiming, like an 8-year-old, that Americans are doing it all wrong.  LOL
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 2:48pm
Michael - I agree with you. We have to learn to get along. Socialism is the way forward but Americans have been brainwashed against it for decades. They have been fed with the line that it equates to tyranny. Such a shame.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 2:52pm
William - but surely without Brits you wouldn't have achieved much? Without Turin you wouldn't even have computers. This arrogance that America does everything best, is responsible for everything and is bigger and better than everyone else is a bit of a farce, isn't it? The rest of the world takes the piss out of that attitude.
Nearly everything America has achieved was done by foreigners. Your whole space and atomic programme is a good example.
I enjoy my typing thanks.
William Stockton Added Oct 10, 2017 - 3:12pm
ok opher . . . ya, but the great Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi invented algebra.  Without algebra, we wouldn't have computers nor the Turin project!
 
LOL opher.  You lefty Brits enjoy your delusion over there.  I do know a few there who are not speaking such tripe.  They actually want liberty from both the EU and American influence.  If you actually wanted Liberty too, you would turn to the right in a heartbeat.  Rather, you do not and really want to be our boy-toys.
Cheers
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 3:55pm
William - that is precisely my point - everybody plays their part. The world is not just American. European, Asian, African, Australian and South Americans all contribute.
I have as much freedom as I want William. I am not constricted in any way. I can say and write what I like, go where I like and I agree with the majority of the laws we abide by - they are there to enable us all to get on with each other. Those fools who voted Brexit will restrict all our freedom. I will no longer be able to travel freely through Europe. My standard of living will drop and I will not have the money to do as much. Liberty?? I think not.
Breaking away from America will be even more difficult as we will be economically more ensnared than we presently are.
Liberty?? I'm not sure what you are thinking. I think you might be fooling yourself. Your laws are created by the same elite who make all the laws - they organise things for themselves and their own benefit. Your democracy is worse than ours. You end up voting for a very limited field of flawed candidates put forward by the establishment. You can't influence much at all personally and you do not have any freer a society than I live in - more military, more brainwashed and more violent from my experience. Where's the liberty in that?
John G Added Oct 10, 2017 - 4:55pm
The USA has what's known as the Presidential System. It hasn't worked anywhere else in the world.
Ever heard of a country called France?
John G Added Oct 10, 2017 - 4:56pm
Leroy: The European model is the EU, an autocratic form of government that bypasses the will of the people.  Yes, it would do well as a world government, one step away from outright communism.
LOLz. The EU is a neoliberal (capitalism on steroids) corporate kleptocracy.
John G Added Oct 10, 2017 - 4:58pm
Goodwin: Michael/Leroy - I don't think the EU government, in its current form is one to aim for. It requires making more democratic. But the British parliament is probably the best way forward - representative democracy. It just needs a bit of an overhaul too though. We need to get rid of the upper house and do away with lobbying, corruption and make MPs more accountable.
Good lord. You are the long winded Dino Manalis.
John G Added Oct 10, 2017 - 4:59pm
Despite her (the U.S.) best efforts, millions and millions have indeed died since WWII; most due to Communism (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim ll Sung).  Today, fascism (via Islam) is trying to reemerge as a major source of death and destruction.  (And Europe has opened her gates to those who would destroy her.)
This cowardly wacko obviously gets its history from Glenn Beck.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Oct 10, 2017 - 5:07pm
The EU is a neoliberal (capitalism on steroids) corporate kleptocracy.
 
True. I'm European. I can fucking confirm that !
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 10, 2017 - 5:48pm
Michael Cikraji >> I very well may be ignorant about Texas. So, educate me! What is it that is unique about Texas that makes it so special to you?  I'm from Ohio, and in comparison, like I said, the business climate is better in Texas. For sure!
 
If I had to point to one thing, the main thing, about Texas that makes her unique (from other states and nations); it would be the idea of freedom ingrained into the psyche of the people (on an individual level).  I'm not saying this concept is not found in the hearts of every American (though less today than yesterday); but it is more fertile in the hearts of Texans.  It may have something to do with the fact that we were a Republic all on our own before joining the great U.S. or A.
 
This heightened sense and appreciation of freedom is exactly what makes the better business climate possible; along with all the other benefits.  It is also what makes us adamantly opposed to things that threaten freedom (see socialism).
 
All that said... I would be the last to say my state is perfect or superior in every way to any other.  We definitely have our problems and our fair share of dumb-asses. :)
 
I shared this joke on another WB post...
 
What are the last three words of most Texans?  "and watch this".  What are the last six words of most Texans?  "Hold my beer... and watch this." :)
 
Michael Cikraji >> Also, we appear to have hotter women up here, by far. Sorry, just an observation....
 
I can't even begin to imagine how that is possible. :)
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 10, 2017 - 5:58pm
>> Socialism is the way forward but Americans have been brainwashed against it for decades. They have been fed with the line that it equates to tyranny. Such a shame.
 
Guilty as charged.  I (and many of my fellow Americans) do consider socialism an insidious path to a) insolvency (Europe) when you run out of other people's money (that's the slow path of "democratic socialism") b) tyranny (see Venezuela) (the fast path of just taking everything) or c) both (see Cuba)
 
Socialism is second only to communism in creating human misery in the world over the last century.  Both should be resisted at all costs.
 
I would advise you guys (socialist) to be patient.  We (America) may have taken a four to eight-year detour; but we'll be back on track soon enough.  Looking at the Democratic Party and the fact that Bernie Sanders was even remotely considered a viable candidate spells our eventual doom.  The Constitution, rugged individualism, freedom?  They'll be on the ash heap of history soon enough.  Then you guys can move forward with your socialist utopia... at least until Sharia (back to fascism) kicks in.
 
I weep for the future...
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:05pm
>> This cowardly wacko obviously gets its history from Glenn Beck.
This from the nut-job troll that equates fascism with capitalism.  I wonder how well he would have fared in the workers paradises created by his comrades (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim ll Sung)?
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:13pm
Lynn - your idea of freedom and liberty smacks of anarchy, macho posturing and inequality to me. My experience of Texas was not so much freedom as a place of conservative bullies who were totally intolerant of anyone different. That's not freedom. That is fine if you are one of the bullies, not so fine if you are different.
A place that is intolerant of difference is not a place of freedom is it? It's a place of conformity or else!
My idea of freedom is being able to say and do what I like within the limits of the law without fear or threat. I can't say I'd feel able to do that in the Texas I experienced.
Macho aggression doesn't make a man. It makes a bully in my book.
Tolerance is freedom and liberty. Intolerance and conformity is a prison.
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:18pm
Macho aggression doesn't make a man. It makes a bully in my book.
 
Because you're a fuckin' pussy. 
 
John G Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:22pm
There's no hypocrite like a christian hypocrite.
Fascism is a capitalist phenomenon. It puts big business in the drivers seat. The USA of today for example.
And the USA is by far the biggest killer on the planet.
But keep bending over for your oligarchs, dimwit.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:26pm
Jeffry - and you're a loudmouth, arrogant bully. Time you grew up a bit.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:29pm
Even if what DOHpher said about me were true he is and always will be a pussy. 
Leroy Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:31pm
I weep for our future too as we are flushed down the toilet of history.  It's little consolation that we will be riding higher on the swirl than the other nations and government moments before we pass through the siphon of no return.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:37pm
You don't know me at all Captain Birdseye. I wish I had you out on the rugby field we'd see who was the pussy then. All mouth and no trousers.
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:38pm
OP >> Lynn - your idea of freedom and liberty smacks of anarchy, macho posturing and inequality to me.
 
Yet this whole post (and comments) is about how you and the rest of the "enlightened" would like to form a world authority in order to tell  me (and my fellow Texans) how it's going to be; because we (ignorant hicks) just aren't progressing fast enough for you.
 
And we are the bullies!? 
 
You're hypocrisy is showing Mr. Goodwin.  But that is exactly what I have come to expect form the likes of socialism.  If only you were in charge of Venezuela or Cuba, real socialism could have thrived and all that human misery could have been avoided.
 
But you're absolutely right.  We Texans aren't the most "tolerant" of people.  We (by nature) don't tolerate evil or stupidity.  We know standing for everything really means standing for nothing.
 
We don't pretend men can choose to be women (or vice versa); that Islam is by nature peaceful; that Stalin and other communists dictators didn't murder tens of millions; or that socialism isn't communism lite.
 
I thank God for that every day.
 
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:39pm
Well Leroy - voting for a sociopathic moron like Trump has certainly ripped the country apart and hastened its descent.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:41pm
Intolerance and conformity 
 
You're intolerant of people who like guns and you conform to liberal gun grabber ideals.
 
Therefore by your own definition and words YOU are in prison. 
 
See how that works Cupcake? Hmm?
 
Leroy Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:50pm
He may be a sociopathic moron but he is our sociopathic moron.  No need for you to worry about him.  If appointing a Constitutionist to the Supreme Court is ripping the country apart, then let it rip.  More conservative federal judges are being appointed, which will have repercussions for a couple of decades.  So far, there are 13,000 fewer bureaucrats under Trump.  Businesses are less encumbered by regulations.  Congress is deadlocked and can't do any harm.  Things are moving in the right direction.  Maybe we need to be ripped apart so that we can put ourselves back together again.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:51pm
Pathetic Jeffry - not in any way intelligent. You're trying hard though ha ha ha.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2017 - 6:54pm
Leroy. He's certainly ripping you apart. I'm glad I'm not living there at the moment. I think it's beginning to implode.
I do worry about him though. When people like him dig themselves into a hole they usually start a war. With either of the two likely candidates - Iran or North Korea - that could be a costly mistake that would cost many many lives and could drag us into it as well. It could drag China and Russia in too.
A very dangerous game indeed.
Leroy Added Oct 10, 2017 - 7:12pm
Then again, he might be the first president to resolve the Korean situation rather than kicking the can down the road.
John G Added Oct 10, 2017 - 7:41pm
appointing a Constitutionist to the Supreme Court 
Americans can be so ignorant of their own country and its fake democracy.
The Supremes are Democrats and Republicans. They practice legal sophistry to forge their 'decisions' based entirely along party political lines.
Like everything in the USA, the oligarchs have the power. Not the people.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 10, 2017 - 8:13pm
Michael C. great answer to my first question, why us.  Before the industrial age the world was not totally used.  Today all reasonable land has been used up.  Only Antarctica is left.   I would like to hear more but for WB this is sufficient.  
 
I had a second issue with the original article and it appears that no other response piled on to is this issue:  What grabbed me is your ending, "appropriate overlord." That to me is a problem. The history of the world is for the most part about class societies. The end results of every single one of these overlord societies is collapse, without exception. You see the problem with class societies is that barriers must be in place to restrict the movement of people between the classes. And in the end the people in the lower classes revolt against being denied the same rights and wealth and power of the upper classes. That is the European you want to be an overlord, European social democrat governments and even USA government are class societies that build barriers.  The American Revolutionary War as clearly stated against them being put into a lower class.  The Declaration of Independence defines a classless society and the Constitution created a government that attempts to resist the creation of a class society.   Instead of a government built on man's laws America as originally stated in the Declaration of Independence is based on natural law, God's law.  
John G Added Oct 10, 2017 - 8:55pm
The Declaration of Independence defines a classless society and the Constitution created a government that attempts to resist the creation of a class society. 
 
The founding fathers were much concerned about the hazards of democracy. In the debates of the Constitutional Convention, the main framer, James Madison, warned of these hazards. Naturally taking England as his model, he observed that "in England, at this day, if elections were open to all classes of people, the property of landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place," undermining the right to property. To ward off such injustice, "our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation," arranging voting patterns and checks and balances so as "to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority," a prime task of decent government.
The threat of democracy took on still larger proportions because of the likely increase in "the proportion of those who will labor under all the hardships of life, and secretly sigh for a more equal distribution of its blessings," as Madison anticipated. Perhaps influenced by Shays's Rebellion, he warned that "the equal laws of suffrage" might in time shift power into their hands. "No agrarian attempts have yet been made in this Country," he continued, "but symptoms of a levelling spirit . . . have sufficiently appeared in a [sic] certain quarters to give warning of the future danger." For such reasons, Madison held that the Senate, the main seat of power in the constitutional system, "ought to come from and represent the wealth of the nation," the "more capable sett of men," and that other constraints on democratic rule should be instituted.
Saint George Added Oct 10, 2017 - 9:29pm
The environmental destruction is extreme.
 
Environment destruction is (and has been) the most extreme in those countries that have (and had) a government that controlled everything. Former Soviet Union, former communist China, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc.
 
The environment, globally, is doing much better than it was, for example, 60 years ago. The scientific evidence for this fact is overwhelming. What you have in mind is popular propaganda from the mainstream media.
 
not sure about Cuba. There are some things I like about it.
 
For example?
 
I'm looking at a body that can control what is going on globally - not a repressive government.
 
A difference without a distinction. "Control what is going on globally" = "repressive government." They're the same thing.
 
I said mathematics not calculus.
 
Calculus is a branch of mathematics. You've presented no evidence that something like simple counting (1, 2, 3, . . .) emerged from the Middle East.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:19am
wish I had you out on the rugby field 
 
30 seconds with you Sweetcheeks you'll remember every time you try to walk. 
 
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 5:09am
Cheers John Wayne - will you bring all your cowards body armour and helmet too? You talk like a cartoon Jeffry Pugwash.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 5:11am
Leroy - I can't believe that you think all this threat and ridicule will resolve anything. He's just making a fool of himself and all of you. He's as impotent as a jellyfish.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 5:14am
Saint - the environment is not doing better than 60 years ago. I have witnessed the destruction all around the world with my own eyes. 56% of vertebrate wiped out in the last forty years. 50% of invertebrates wiped out. Elephants of the verge of being wiped out. What on earth are you reading? The evidence is all around us. It is a catastrophe.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 5:18am
Saint - I believe I did. As I said the earliest recorded mathematical symbols were on parchment from Egypt. I'll check that up.
Although the history commences with that of the Ionian schools, there is no doubt that those Ancient Greeks who paid attention to it were largely indebted to the previous investigations of the Ancient Egyptians and Ancient Phoenicians.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 5:23am
Saint - I do not agree that in any way a global body to regulate the atrocities going on across the globe needs to be a repressive government. We are capable of producing something that is democratic and with sufficient safeguards to prevent it becoming tyrannical. I believe there is a cultural indoctrination at work here. Americans have been thoroughly indoctrinated against communism, socialism and government in general. They have this naïve frontiers attitude of complete freedom. Except this is the 21st century and there are no longer free wide open spaces. We mostly live in cities.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 11, 2017 - 5:36am
We are capable of producing something that is democratic and with sufficient safeguards to prevent it becoming tyrannical.
 
 
Which was the founding fathers goal and look how that turned out in less than 200 years. Or the EU, look how tyrannical that is in just a few decades.
 
Pretty kumbaya words of yours above that ignore the world is chock full of petty manipulative greedy people who will always fuck up a good thing. 
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 6:44am
Jeffry - yep. The world is certainly tainted with mean and nasty people. They will look to take over anything and turn it to their advantage. They have no morality or scruples.
But the world also has intelligent geniuses who learn from the past and are capable of putting together a structure with enough safeguards that the evil fuckers can't take it over.
The alternative is to stumble along and allow those greedy fuckers to do their thing completely unobstructed and they are presently creating war, poverty and destroying the planet.
What? We sit on our hands and say it can't be done?
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 11, 2017 - 7:13am
The alternative is to stumble along and allow those greedy fuckers to do their thing completely unobstructed
 
It's not binary.
 
I told you many times the most efficient effective way but you chose to reject it out of hand. 
 
You claim scholarship yet you appear to be uninterested in a point of view I'm certain you're unfamiliar with. 
 
Unintended Consequences
 
That link will download the free PDF file of the book. 
 
There's much more than the solution in the book. The solution begins in the last section - the last 209 pages if I recall.
 
Even if you reject it you will learn a great deal about a culture you repeatedly admit you don't understand. 
Leroy Added Oct 11, 2017 - 7:23am
"Americans have been thoroughly indoctrinated against communism, socialism and government in general. "
 
We have the British monachy to thank for that, and, in particular, King George III.  Thanks so much!
Leroy Added Oct 11, 2017 - 7:36am
"The alternative is to stumble along and allow those greedy fuckers to do their thing completely unobstructed and they are presently creating war, poverty and destroying the planet.
What? We sit on our hands and say it can't be done?"
 
Let's examine the facts.  The relative number deaths from war is at an all-time low.  World poverty is lower than it has ever been.  These multinational that you hate are bringing heat and disease resistant crops to places where crops are difficult to grow.  The environment is places like the US is cleaner today than it was 50 years ago.  Places under socialism such as China are dirtier than they have ever been.  What?  Do we want to mess all this progress up?
 
I understand what you mean.  You see all the problems of the world and you want to do something about it.  Progress is too slow for you.  It's understandable.  However, your knee-jerk reaction has zero chance of making things better.  Slow and steady progress is the key. 
 
It is naive to believe that we can all just get along.  Sure.  Europe is docile enough to be lead.  The EU has proved that.  Do you think Russia will consent to be ruled by being outvoted by Europe?  The UN is largely democratic, except for the Security Council.  Do you think Europe will consent to be ruled by third world countries?   Ok.  Maybe that is a bad question.  Substitute the US for Europe.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 7:40am
Leroy - I don't follow that. Why did King George create an American indoctrination against communism and socialism?
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 7:43am
Leroy - I think your complacency is ill-founded. The world is in a bigger mess right now than it has ever been. The environment is being ravaged. The billionaires are stuffing their money away. Extinctions are running out of control. The world population soars. Pollution is getting worse. There is starvation, drought, climate change, terrorism and mass migration. I think you live in a bubble.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 7:46am
Jeffry - I have downloaded the book and I will give it a read. I'm always interested in different points of view.
Leroy Added Oct 11, 2017 - 7:58am
"Leroy - I don't follow that. Why did King George create an American indoctrination against communism and socialism?"
 
Europeans have been indoctrinated for centuries into believing in supreme leaders.  The US broke that cycle.  Is a monarchy not an authoritative government?  What it the difference between it an communism and socialism?  Doesn't a monarchy have complete control over the means of production?  It is communism by any other name.  The result is the same; it benefits only a few at the top.  Communism is nothing more than an extreme version of socialism.  Workers are regulated by the state to do the right thing in the view of the state.
 
Americans threw off these thugs in favor of individualism.  Perhaps it is time for another revolution.  The statists have taken hold again.
Leroy Added Oct 11, 2017 - 8:08am
"Leroy - I think your complacency is ill-founded. The world is in a bigger mess right now than it has ever been. The environment is being ravaged. The billionaires are stuffing their money away. Extinctions are running out of control. The world population soars. Pollution is getting worse. There is starvation, drought, climate change, terrorism and mass migration. I think you live in a bubble."
 
I am not complacent.  I am all in favor in getting rid of unnecessary and abusive government control.  I am the opposite of you.  We do not have too little government.  Government is not the solution.  We are.
 
From a practical point of view, how would any of these problems be resolved by a democratic, centralized government without the use of force?  It is truly naive to believe that we all will just get along. Look at climate change, for example.  Forced hasn't been tried, but everything short of force has been tried.  Yet, we can't all agree.  To the extent there is agreement, it is because the third world countries have been bribed to go along.  If there wasn't financial gain by the leaders of these countries, there would be no support.  A pork barrel government can't work in the long run.  Sooner or later, the government would run out of other people's money.
 
If the bubble represents reality, then I plead guilty as charged. 
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 11, 2017 - 8:13am
@ Thomas S
My comment "appropriate overlord" is being taken here not how I had intended, but it's my fault. That wording makes Europe seem menacing, when today it clearly isn't. What I had in my mind is my personal, cynical thought that EVERY government is an overlord over us, but Europe most appropriately should be all of ours. In a way, I misspoke.
 
That map illustrates where Europe has owned/run things ANYWHERE in the last 500 years. To your point, no, they certainly didn't own/run all of it at the same time.
 
What is actually chilling is that long BEFORE we know the actual history, we're finding ancient Europeans very, very far from where they should be... all these stories of ancient whites in North and South America (long before the Vikings even), in Africa too, remains of another tribe of ancient Europeans in modern-day China
.... makes you wonder what influence Europeans had in the world before we even knew it...
Leroy Added Oct 11, 2017 - 8:39am
We make a distinction between Europe and Asia.  But, really, it is all one land mass: Eurasia.  It is not surprising that Asia and Europe had the influence on each other.  Northern Africa, due to its proximity, also had influence and was effectively part of Eurasia.  Outside of Mexico and Western South America, it is the cradle of civilization.  It is natural for developments and people in one area to flow to the other. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 11, 2017 - 9:04am
Michael C., this is so true, " That wording [appropriate overlord] makes Europe seem menacing, when today it clearly isn't."  The reason Europe is not as menacing is simply because my underlined comment just after presenting your words 'appropriate overlord' seems to be not that far off in the future.  Thanks again for the third time now of Germany, the birth place of socialism.  These words I underlined Michael C.,  The history of the world is for the most part about class societies. The end results of every single one of these overlord societies is collapse, without exception.   
 
You see Michael man's laws by a few make them the overlords of their citizens.  The state comes before them.  The overlords create classes two of which are the overlords and the enforces of the overlords.  Only force in the end keeps the state lording over the people.  The economy is built around serving the state.  Collapse of the economy or a revolution is inevitable.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 9:47am
Leroy- there are lots of ways of dealing with things
discussion
Agreement on treaties
bringing the issues into the open
applying diplomatic pressure
applying public pressure
sanctions
A lot of things get dealt with this way. It doesn't require force very often.
 
Leroy Added Oct 11, 2017 - 10:02am
Opher, all these things were tried to reach an agreement on climate change, yet it failed.  Where do we go from here, in your world?
 
Well, ok.  Sanctions against the US haven't been tried.  Why don't you guys give it a try?
 
Oh, wait.  To get China, India, and Russia to go along, you had to give them a pass, even though they are the worst polluters.  The agreement has no teeth and no effect.  Yep.  Let's give sanctions a try and see it the world is willing to go to the brink for an agreement without teeth that will not be met and is inconsequential.  That's world government.
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 11, 2017 - 10:49am
Please keep in mind that this article is a "pie-in-the-sky" dream. Unfortunately in today's world it's impossible, for a giant multitude of factors.
But just because something may be unrealistic today, doesn't mean that with time, work and passion it can't be a reality.... some day.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:00pm
Leroy - it didn't fail. It resulted in agreement. It was Trump who pulled out. But it looks as if he is being bypassed. Most States are doing what is needed anyway. All the countries who signed up are going ahead without him. The treaty is good. Talking and negotiation worked. There is always one chump who won't go along but we can do without him.
China, Russia and India are on side and are all bringing in programmes.
Whether it is fast enough or deep enough remains to be seen.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/climate/american-cities-climate-standards.html
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:01pm
Michael - I think most people got that. I'm looking ahead to the time when it becomes possible. Only by the dreams of men can we reach the stars.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:06pm
Leroy - BTW the USA is the second most polluting country.
Given that the population of China is over 4 times that of the States I would say that makes the States the worst of all.


CountryCO2 emissions (kt) in 2015% CO2 emissions by country

World
36,061,710
100%


China
10,641,789
29.51%


United States
5,172,338
14.34%


European Union
3,469,671
9.62%


Leroy Added Oct 11, 2017 - 1:23pm
So, what's your point, Opher?
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:13pm
John G,
You write:
The USA has what's known as the Presidential System. It hasn't worked anywhere else in the world.
Ever heard of a country called France?
 
France has what's called a Prime Minister. The idea with the "Presidential System" is that the head of state and the head of government are the same person: such as in the USA. France has both a Prime Minister and a President.
Michael Cikraji Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:18pm
Thomas S,
I think the Marxian class concept of human societies is needlessly complex, but essentially correct. Quite simply, there has always been the ruling class(es) and then everyone else: Patricians and Plebeians. 
A grand vision of communism was that these castes would disappear, but in fact they just reemerged as party members, and non-party members: in essence the same thing they tried to get away from.  
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:37pm
>> But it looks as if he is being bypassed. Most States are doing what is needed anyway. All the countries who signed up are going ahead without him. The treaty is good.
 
Wow... that's great.  So all's well that ends well.
 
I'm thus confused why there is still all the fuss about the U.S. not participating when we seem to be doing so more on a micro (state) level despite Trump?
 
It might have something to do with "most states" (I assume Texas isn't one of them); doing their little environmental hokey-pokey regulatory dances (appearances) but neglecting to pick up the tab ($3 billion out of 10) that the U.S. was supposed to contribute to the U.N.s Green Climate Fund (this would be known as substance).
 
I can only see all the wailing and gnashing of teeth if it was all about the money... and no so much about the "environment".
 
But Hey... we're not sending those bastards another dime and OG says things are going great without it... so I'm assuming we at WB can pat each other on the back and all declare victory!  We all got what we wanted!
 
Unless of course... it really IS all about the money... which it's not.  Right?
 
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 3:02pm
Leroy - my two points were that agreement and talking works without resorting to violence and that Russia, China and India aren't as bad as the USA.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 3:08pm
Lynn - it will probably work out despite Trumpos attempt to neanderthaishly throw a spanner in the works. What he achieved was to rile everyone up so that they did it to snub him.
Shame that Texans are cheapskating. But then they have vested interests in polluting industries, don't they?
When it comes to protecting the planet everybody should put in their fair share shouldn't they? It's a bit like buying a round in the pub with the guy who never reaches into his pocket, isn't it?
The important thing is that pollution is cut and global warming is addressed. Nothing else matters.
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 11, 2017 - 4:21pm
OG >> What he achieved was to rile everyone up so that they did it to snub him.
 
Did what?  Make up the difference in the money going to the U.N. slush fund?  No... that would require actual sacrifice.  They agreed to do all the stuff that is for show and little or nothing that is of substance.
 
But God bless 'em... do whatever you're going to do to feel better about yourself; just keep it to yourselves.  I fully support Europe, California, New York and whoever spending half their GDP on this stuff; just make sure it’s their supporters, their tax payers footing the bills.
 
But please, give us specific details as to what "they" actually did?  I suspect they signed some papers… made a few vague promises.  But what of substance did “they” do?
 
>> Shame that Texans are cheapskating.
 
We just don't like to throw good money after bad.  Believing in self determination, I thoroughly support leftist states (at whatever level) putting their money where their mouth is.  We'll do the same.
 
>> But then they have vested interests in polluting industries, don't they?
 
I support the oil industry as well as all other industries that actually produce something tangible; making it possible for the world economy to thrive and for people to make a living (even leftist hypocrites).  It’s pretty well what makes EVERYTHING you take for granted possible.
 
If you drive a car (or use any fossil fuels) ... you're a hypocrite destroying the planet (as you say).  But you’re probably like all other leftist (with a huge “carbon footprint”) that see sacrifice as the lot of the serfs… not so much for the enlightened.
 
It’s kind of like the left’s vision for socialism; equality for everybody else… but no so much for those of you who will be running the show.  “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others” after all.
 
But!  If you do decide to actually live by what you preach… we’ll miss you here at WB.
 
>> When it comes to protecting the planet everybody should put in their fair share shouldn't they?
 
All who believe in that crap... yes.  I believe your god demands nothing less.  I don't worship the "planet".
 
>> It's a bit like buying a round in the pub with the guy who never reaches into his pocket, isn't it?
 
No... of course it’s not.  It's more like passing the plate and demanding money from those who don’t worship your god.
 
>> The important thing is that pollution is cut
 
Yes
 
>> and global warming is addressed.
 
No
 
>> Nothing else matters.
 
Only if global warming is a religion.  Which for most of you it is... so I can at least relate to the faith you invest in it.  I just place mine elsewhere… and have the courtesy to not demand that you worship and sacrifice at my alter.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 5:21pm
Lynn - Ha ha. A religion? No a scientific fact.
Fortunately the majority of the world has looked at the facts and decided that they have to act.
Coal, oil and gas are polluting industries. We need them right now but they need running down as rapidly as possible. Non-polluting alternative energy is the future.
The UK produced 50% of its energy from alternative energy sources this year for the first time. That is brilliant.
Trump may be a convenient Luddite (convenient because promising to revive dirty industry got him elected) but he is being bypassed. If anything his moronic stance has served to make others more determined. Thank heavens.
I am saddened by your callous remarks about the plants and animals being wiped out even as we speak. The destruction going on is unprecedented. It's sad that you don't care for their suffering.
Enjoy your hurricanes, rain and storms. Nothing to do with global warming of course.
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 11, 2017 - 5:38pm
You're killing the planet with every keystroke you heartless $%^%#!  When will your rampage end!  Don't you even care? :)
John G Added Oct 11, 2017 - 6:14pm
Cikragi. Your distinction would hold water were we talking about Germany, Ireland and a few others.
But in France the President has much the same executive role as in the USA. 
 
John G Added Oct 11, 2017 - 6:18pm
You gotta love the way the extreme right attribute all capitalism's evils, drawbacks, faults and contradictions to the left.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 7:19pm
Lynn - I know - I can't help myself. But you know it's not about what individuals do. It's about the decisions made at the top. The power for my keyboard can come from the sun, wind, water, ground or coal, oil, and gas. It's not me that calls that play.
We don't have to rein in. They just have to make the correct calls.
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 11, 2017 - 7:56pm
OG... I am saddened by your callous typing!  Do you just want people to die?  OMG!  It's sad that you don't care. :) Enjoy the rain, cold and foggy weather. Nothing to do with your typing of course. :)
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 11, 2017 - 9:10pm
So Micheal your not worried that every class based civilization in history collapse from economic failure or revolution.  The third one is being conquered but that happens to any civilization.  Rome and Byzantine empires created welfare states just as Europe and America is doing today.  They also let in large numbers of immigrants.  The cost of welfare for these empires increased until it was consuming the money that should have been spent on defense. 
 
Islamic Ottoman caliphates and USSR failed due to economic collapse.  The foundation of Islam calls for one caliphate which never occurred since communications was limited by sail and horse based communications.  Internal conflicts kept breaking up the caliphates for centuries.  Islam based its sharia laws on those created by the first major caliphates that existed in the first century.  Man's laws that have not fit an agriculture culture but was not effective in dealing with the industrial revolution that required lots of experimentation that results in change.  I talked about laws of nature and nature's god laws.  Ten Commandments is a good example.  The Old testament tells us that the profits that present and defend God's laws are not part of governing the nation.  They may lead the nation for short times to deal with a problem.
 
Your world ruler has let their enemy build enclaves within their borders.  That is not an action anyone I would choose as a leader.  The murders emerging from these enclave is proof.
John G Added Oct 12, 2017 - 12:12am
Johnson the wacky fascist christian nutter is proving, is if any more proof were needed, that he is an childish moron. As well as an intellectual pygmy and moral coward.
John G Added Oct 12, 2017 - 12:16am
Sutrina proves yet again that he has absolutely no relationship with the real world.
I'm not for censorship at all but you have to wonder when these wackos that watch Glenn Beck etc come out with this stuff and start calling for genocide, whether these types need reining in.
Instead the leftist media is being attacked.
Full blown fascism here we come.
Saint George Added Oct 12, 2017 - 3:53am
But this isn't the 18th century anymore
 
Same argument could be used against the 1st Amendment In the 18th century, there were hand-driven printing presses; today, we have the Internet and all the Fake News that zombunist loaves of rat-turd like skid-mark-g can disseminate for the purpose of trolling and pleasing his political masters. Surely you see the great damage propaganda like that can do to young, innocent minds.
John G Added Oct 12, 2017 - 4:39am
We know who your political masters are, Corey/StGeorge. The donors of the CSIS.
I'm pretty sure this site isn't going to attract them though. And I'm pretty sure your style won't get you up the ladder.
Saint George Added Oct 12, 2017 - 4:41am
I don't know who "Corey" is, rat-turd-loaf, but we know you're an Arab-terror enabler and Russian-paid troll. How do you like living under a bridge? Lots of other trolls you can play with, I suppose? Hope so. Would hate for a sociopath nitwit like you to be lonely.
John G Added Oct 12, 2017 - 5:44am
I think that Autumn has lost the plot if she thinks your shit is going to win contributors.
Why would anyone invite people to come here when your filth is encouraged?
A broad range of right wing extremists isn't a broad range that will attract readers.
It's like Fox News here. A mass of extreme right wingers with a few token barely tolerated (right wing) liberals to provide 'balance'.
The racism, the fascism, the white supremacism is palpable.
Leroy Added Oct 12, 2017 - 6:22am
You guys give censorship a good name.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 12, 2017 - 8:28am
Jeffry G.  so what size shoe do you wear?  
 
How you keep getting it all in your mouth is amazing.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2017 - 11:10am
Lyn - there's far too many people and nowhere near enough words.
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 12, 2017 - 11:30am
My apologies OG... Just using absurdity to counter absurdity.  Best wishes. :) Type away... :)
Lynn Johnson Added Oct 12, 2017 - 11:35am
>> Johnson the wacky fascist christian nutter... blah blah blah...
Thank you John G.  Don't know how I would get though my day without some obscure pearl of wisdom from my favorite liberal troll. :)  You add so much to every conversation.  God bless you. :)
 
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2017 - 11:44am
Best wishes to you too. I too was being flippant.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 12, 2017 - 12:09pm
Jeffry G.  so what size shoe do you wear?  
 
WTF? 
 
Saint George Added Oct 12, 2017 - 9:22pm
I think that Autumn has lost the plot if she thinks your shit is going to win contributors.
 
You think your posts "win contributors"? You're psychotic. No wonder you're a socialist.
Katharine Otto Added Oct 12, 2017 - 11:13pm
Individuals have no rights under the US Constitution.  Read it again.  The US is not a democracy.  It is not a republic.  It is an economic engine with oligarchy controls through the electoral college and the Supreme Court.  
 
I believe it is idealistic to presume mere human beings are capable of ruling the world.  You're talking about absentee bosses who have no clue about local issues.  I'm for downsizing to the point of personally knowing the people making the decisions.  If the testosterone-poisoned control freaks would get out of the way, maybe individuals would have enough breathing room to figure things out without the self-appointed demi-gods' help.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 13, 2017 - 12:47am
  If the testosterone-poisoned control freaks would get out of the way
 
Reminds me of an advert I once read in a left coast free publication that read something like this:
 
Roommate wanted for testosterone free house....
 
Both statements leave me shaking my head. 
 
Beware the evil Y chromosome. Oooo. 
 
Katharine Otto Added Oct 13, 2017 - 4:07pm
Jeffry,
Remember, I live with roosters, the best example of testosterone poisoning I know.  I like men fine, but you have to admit (don't you?) that the sexes have been out of balance, politically speaking, throughout recorded history, at least in the histories we know.
 
I guess the Native Americans were matriarchal, which may be why they were basically obliterated.
 
And, I concede men have no monopoly on control freakiness.  Too many people believe they know what's best for other people, and don't give them credit for sense.  I'm of the "live and let live" persuasion, and I would be among the first to advocate undermining a top-heavy system.
Thomas Sutrina Added Oct 13, 2017 - 5:15pm
The 8th to the 19th centuries are very relevant.  History tells of how an idea works.  If it is a failure in the past.  Then only a foolish leader and nation will purposely repeat a failed experiment in government.  If they can not explain why dozens of variations of class societies with a governing class have failed in the past, and that means work there way down the list with reasons why for each.   They will fail because they will be repeating what already failed.  I am talking about fundamentals and not simple name changes or slight scale changes.  That has happened in the past also.  This is not an agriculture society so for that reason alone this government approach will work in an industrial society.  Today we have that didn't work in an industrial or and agricultural society but today in a information society.   Not enough.  Only a fool will buy that reason. 

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