There is Rape with a capital R and then rape that really shouldn't be called rape

Many years ago we all knew what Rape was, forced intercourse with someone who had to be beaten or threatened into submission, by someone they would never never never want to see again.  The penalty was justifiably strong because victims life was usually wrecked and there is no greater personal invasion than a forcible rape.


Today we've redefined the term and rape includes victims who changed their mind in the middle of consensual intercourse, even if they don't consider themselves to have been raped and willingly continued to have sexual relations with the same person even after that. 


That redefinition has greatly increased the rape statistics way beyond reality and subjected a horrifically large portion of the population to potential rape charges.  It's also made it pretty darn easy for a young girl who regrets getting pregnant to try and cast aside some of the blame by claiming she was raped.


Forced rape is a honorific crime perpetuated by sick people and should never be confused with sex that was so acceptable to the victim at the time it happened that they weren't upset enough to stop having sex with that person in the future.  Date rape isn't a good thing, but it's another crime all together, and should not be subject to the same law and punishments as we previously set aside for violent rapists who force themselves on totally unwilling victims.


Flying Junior Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:32am
How about forty years for violent rape of a stranger and twenty years for date rape?  Does that satisfy your male ego?
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 6:51am
Rusty - I served on a jury for a rape allegation. The girl concerned went out with her friend and consumed a lot of alcohol. At two in the morning she went with her friends to a pizza parlour and met up with some squaddies. One offered to walk her home (about half a mile). Her friend called out 'I hope you've got some condoms'. Back home, at gone 3.00 am she invited him in. She claimed she passed out and woke to find him having sex with her. He denied it.
He was convicted of rape, lost his job in the army, was dishonourably discharged and sentenced to fifteen years.
I think there are different levels and types of rape deserving of different punishment.
Dave Volek Added Oct 11, 2017 - 8:23am
Another provocative article by Rusty.
I try to teach the young people in my life that the social atmosphere around alcohol puts them in a little more danger than they need to be in. They can avoid many life pitfalls if they stay away from that sub-culture.
Not sure how successful I have been or will be, but I don't think it's a bad idea to offer this message to counter the image created by the alcohol industry.
Bill Kamps Added Oct 11, 2017 - 2:16pm
Dave is correct, both guys and women, when they get drunk put themselves at risk in any number of ways.  Getting drunk and going to bed with a stranger isnt a good idea, though of course in the real world it happens. 
Of course there are different sentences possible for guys convicted of rape, though the stigma obviously exists regardless of the degree of penalty.  The joke of course is we need signed documents.
On a much lighter note, Louis CK talks about the danger men present to women.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 3:12pm
Bill - for me it should be like murder with different degrees. Rape is a bad crime but there are still different levels.
Bill Kamps Added Oct 11, 2017 - 3:19pm
opher, yes exactly.  Here in Texas you can actually get probation for murder.  Of course this would be an unusual circumstance, but they like to have a wide range for penalties here.  We also have the death penalty. 
The problem with sex crimes is the data base they keep.  So even if it is a minor offense, or statutory rape between a 18 and 17 year old, you still get tossed into the sex crime data base which screws up one's life.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2017 - 5:13pm
Bill - my experience on that jury convinced me that something was badly wrong. That young man was found guilty but we all thought he was innocent. He chose the wrong defence. I think he was in panic.
The law needs an overhaul.
Rusty Smith Added Oct 11, 2017 - 11:45pm
Flying Junior  I'm not sure how you define date rape but I think a guy who drugs a girl and then rapes her is just one step down from one who mugs her and does the same thing.
However I don't even think either of them is close to a case were the girl and guy have been dating and having sex, and the girl says that she said stop one time and he didn't, especially if she keeps going out and having more sex with him.
There are lot of folks, you might be one, who call it rape, and want 20 years, even when the girl doesn't consider it rape, and still likes and continues to date the guy.  Those are cases I wouldn't call rape, because it has so little in common with violent rape.
Rusty Smith Added Oct 11, 2017 - 11:52pm
opher goodwin  I think we shouldn't be mixing up violent crimes with actions that show poor judgement but not a real criminal intent.
Since Rape is so loosely defined an 18 year old kid who has been banging his willing girlfriend can be accused of a super bad crime that will follow him for the rest of his life, over something that was consensual up to the moment she said, or claims she said, stop.  Even at worst he's not "violating" her in any way that resembles a violent rape.  Those guys may be jerks, and need to get slapped around but their not the same threat level as the ones that beat women into submission.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2017 - 4:11am
Rusty - I agree with what you say. Somehow someone who beats, threatens or drugs a girl is in a different category to one who is in a situation where the girl changes her mind. They are all wrong - it's just the degree of wrongness in my mind - yet they are all saddled with the same crime.
Bill Kamps Added Oct 12, 2017 - 8:40am
Rusty, if an 18 year old is having sex with his 17 year old girl friend, she doesnt even have to say no, for it to be statutory rape, and be a sex crime.  If the girl's father decides to charge him with rape, the guy will be charged.  If it so happens  the guy  is black and the girl is white, there is a good chance the guy will be going to jail, for doing nothing more than having sex with his girl friend.
So yes is a whole range of possibilities that could lead one to be charged with rape, and  have a sex crime label attached to the guy for life.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2017 - 9:01am
Bill - that is true. Is the age of consent 18 everywhere in the States? Jerry Lee Lewis married his cousin who I believe was only 13. How was that possible?
It is 16 in England and varies around the world. Sex with an underage girl is rape.
Somehow I think there should be gradations.
Bill Kamps Added Oct 12, 2017 - 10:20am
opher, the law in each state is different as to the age of consent.  Jerry Lee was able to marry with consent of her father, or mother, I forget which it was.
Sex with an underage is rape.  However, there is a big difference between a 25 year old having sex with a 13 year  old, and an 18 year old having sex with a 17 year old.  Laws of course are black and  white, and sometimes parents use the law to harass a boyfriend they dont like or try to stop their precious baby from having sex, as if they can.  This is especially true if the couple is mixed race, and live in the south. 
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2017 - 1:48pm
Bill - it seems weird to me that what would be the serious crime of rape in one place would be perfectly acceptable in another.
Bill Kamps Added Oct 12, 2017 - 2:05pm
Goes to Rusty's  main point that the laws in this area dont make sense, and dont distinguish between a serious crime, and something that in general isnt even a crime.  When you add to this the sex offenders database, and the fact that once on it, you have to register your location, it is a real problem.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2017 - 2:56pm
Bill - it's crazy and unfair.
Rusty Smith Added Oct 12, 2017 - 9:04pm
opher goodwin and Bill Kamps  it's not just unfair, the way it is it risks cheapening what real RAPE with a Capital is.  50 years ago you knew a rapist was someone who practically deserved to put to death or at least locked away for most of their life but today it might just be someone whose girlfriend got pregnant and claimed she said no to avoid personal condemnation.   
I tried to hire an elderly worker many years ago who had statutory rape on his record from when he was 18 years old, but for over 30 years had by all accounts including his last employer of 20 years, been a seller employee.  I couldn't hire him at my company because he had "exhibited a fatal lack of judgment".  He was right up front about having pleaded no contest and said her dad had caught them and called the police.  He was by far the best candidate, but I had to give the job to runner up number 2.
opher goodwin Added Oct 13, 2017 - 7:19am
Why couldn't you employ him Rusty?
wsucram15 Added Oct 13, 2017 - 8:42am means no. There is no other definition for the word No.
Sex must be consensual all the way.  If a girl wants to be close and make out and the guy gets pushy, she says has to stop there.
End of story.
No means No. 
I dont care if she is dressed like a slutt, is a prostitute and walks the walk...IF SHE SAYS NO...ITS NO!!!
If a man decided he liked your ass and was bigger than you, even had a buddy or two take a turn because they could overpower you..EVEN THOUGH YOU SAID the FUCK WOULD YOU FEEL WHEN THEY WERE STITCHING UP YOUR ANAL CAVITY?
Bill Kamps Added Oct 13, 2017 - 9:09am
opher, in many companies you cant hire someone that is in the sex offenders database.  That database does include people convicted of statutory rape.  The problem is the database includes everything from pedophiles, to serial rapists, to people just exposing themselves in public to statutory rape.
opher goodwin Added Oct 13, 2017 - 10:23am
Bill - that seems harsh. Surely it should be a disclosure and then the company has the right to decide?
opher goodwin Added Oct 13, 2017 - 10:25am
Jeanne - I don't think anybody is disputing that. No means no. That is clear. What I am saying is that there are various degrees as there are with murder. Nobody is condoning it.
Tamara Wilhite Added Oct 13, 2017 - 4:16pm
I agree that the creeping expansion of the definition rape has ruined its meaning and hurt the credibility of women who claim to be raped.
wsucram15 Added Oct 13, 2017 - 7:25pm
Opher- a Retort To Rustys article-"Date rape isn't a good thing, but it's another crime all together, and should not be subject to the same law and punishments as we previously set aside for violent rapists who force themselves on totally unwilling victims."
I call Bullshit! HE is wrong...dead wrong.  No means No. Whether you go out with a guy, you are best friends with him, know his best buddy and got in his car to go meet your guy or perhaps you danced suggestively in a club and he took you in the bathroom to sort come coke,  perhaps you went to buy cigarettes and your BF best friend followed you and raped you outside the store in an alley.
Man I could tell you about daddys and their daughters and their step daughters.. brothers and sisters..cousins..all kinds of screwed up shit.  One girl was drug by HER HAIR outside the door of her fathers car (while it was moving) for fighting him back over raping her.  She suffered permanent neurological damage.
RAPE IS RAPE. NO MEANS NO.   These are simple words.
MEN walk STILL..most of the time, even with DNA evidence because the WOMAN is made to feel like the guilty party.  I know this because I have been through the process.  I have also been through the process with other women.  
No man can even begin to understand the ramifications of rape, especially when they say something like if you knew him, it shouldn't be considered as serious. 
SO....if you knew Jeffrey Dahmer and he cut you into little pieces, should we not have tried him for YOUR murder?  Because all 17 of those young boys knew him.   SO WHAT..his butchering, murdering and eating people is at a lower level that lets say another mass murderer?  Or is premeditated murder just murder?
Follow me here?
Jesus Christ (Im sorry lord) people are so stupid. Help them please.
opher goodwin Added Oct 13, 2017 - 7:44pm
Jeanne - I understand your anguish stemming from your own experience. I cannot totally understand a woman's view but I can empathise. Date rape is no excuse. Rape is a serious offence. All I am saying is that there are degrees and each needs to be judged on its circumstances. I have a daughter and wife and all the protective emotions that go with that. To me there are different levels of violence and harm that go with rape. Now, as a woman you can tell me I'm wrong, but there seems to me to be a difference between a situation where a couple are completely consensual and she is just underage (and I'm not talking paedophilia here and grooming) and a man who attacks a woman, beats her, threatens her life and savagely rapes her.  
Rusty Smith Added Oct 14, 2017 - 11:46am
Rusty Smith  I was stopped cold by the VP, who told he "exhibited a fatal lack of judgment" and that could not be overlooked.
Rusty Smith Added Oct 14, 2017 - 11:53am
wsucram15   I think you've defined your attitude very clearly, and I quote, "DAMN MEN".
At the same  time you've done something else quite interesting, used an examples of people who were certainly violently violated to show  what jerks the men who commit rape rare and demonstrate why they all need to be imprisoned forever.  Lets back off a little, baby steps.
The least sever form of "rape" I can think of is a wife who says stop in the middle and a husband who takes a few more strokes anyway.  In that case would YOU throw that RAPIST in prison if you were on the Jury?
Rusty Smith Added Oct 14, 2017 - 12:05pm
Tamara Wilhite  what do you say to someone like wsucram15, in her world man are the devil and their is no black and white.  It sounds like she or someone very close to her was raped and now she can't even see a difference between a women who would tell her attacker she'd never wanted him to tough her in any way, and one who says not now to someone she regularly wants to have sex with before and after that time.
I doubt that she even realizes there are lots of people who regularly enjoy sex with foreplay that resembles rape.  I've had several long time girlfriends that asked me to do things like that and I always complied with one rule, I refuse to actually hurt them.  I wonder if I described what I did if Tamera would say I should be in prison?  Certainly if she was on a jury and my actions were described out of the full context, it sound like rape.     
Rusty Smith Added Oct 15, 2017 - 9:49pm
Tamara Wilhite  when university women are asked if they have ever had a guy do something to them like not stop when they said stop, about 25% say yes.
Ok now you have your chance.
If you could, would you put 25% of the men in prison right now?
Tamara Wilhite Added Oct 17, 2017 - 7:00pm

Rusty Smith  We know the 1/4 RAPE statistic is not true because if it was, no one would be paying $10-20,000 a year to send their daughter somewhere with a rape rate akin to war torn Congo. Much less say "sure, live on campus, go to drunken parties, we trust you girls to be responsible for your safety and sexuality!"
The only way 1/4 is remotely applicable is if the definition of "rape" is stretched to the point of irrelevancy, applying to one night stands girls regret later or oral sex she felt obligated to give so he wouldn't be with someone else. That is not rape, it is poor judgement, and calling it rape dilutes the word and denigrates the seriousness of the charge when it is actual rape.
Tamara Wilhite Added Oct 17, 2017 - 7:35pm
So no, I wouldn't put 1/4 of men in prison. There is no way that many are guilty of rape, and inflating issues to try to say they are rape is unfair.
Rusty Smith Added Oct 17, 2017 - 11:33pm
Tamara Wilhite  It sure sounds like wsucram15   would like to lock up 1/4 of the men.  
Rusty Smith Added Feb 17, 2018 - 1:03pm
Tamara Wilhite  I just watched the Ritchie Valens movie and it had a great line from his brother who was complaining about his wife.  He said "he practically has to rape his live in girlfriend to get sex".
Obviously his girlfriend, the mother of his child, frequently didn't want sex most of the time they had sex. By the values of many posters in this forum, he should have been thrown in prison.