The Bible is the Ultimate Source of Truth

The Bible is the Ultimate Source of Truth
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All true science will agree with Scripture. Aside from the Theory of Evolution, you can't point out a single instance of where science, history, or any other field contradicts Scripture.  Accordingly, I defer to the authority of the Bible above all else,

 

The age of the universe is disputable, but I acknowledge that other stars and planets are much older than the earth. Since this was written for men, the focus was our planet and how everything came into being. Nobody can prove the age of the universe. It really doesn't matter how old it is, as we agree that the our solar system is probably not the oldest.   The Bible is inspired by God, it's not a science book, and the authors often use descriptive language. This hardly proves God (or even Moses) is wrong.

 

Scientists don't even agree on the age of the Earth. How could they possibly agree on the age of the universe? Our dating methods are not an exact science. I get that people have studied these sciences. However, scientists who believe in Creation have also studied these topics quite extensively. I've heard that the universe is still expanding. Actually, I don't doubt it. God is constantly in the act of creating. 

I agree, Science is not a religion. However, I believe that Evolution is more of "belief" than true science. True science not only is a tool, but uses techniques of observation, experimentation, etc. People often mistakenly believe that those of us who do not believe in Evolution are "anti-science", but nothing could be further from the truth. There are a great many scientists such as Ken Ham and Carl Baugh who can support the "creation" argument with plenty of evidence.

Comments

opher goodwin Added Nov 6, 2017 - 6:51pm
Yep the earth is flat. The sun circles the earth and stars are little pinpricks through to the glory of heaven above. Hell is under the ground. Snakes talk. Apples are bad for you. We should bash out baby's brains on rocks. God only talks to people when they are alone up mountain or in wildernesses. The earth is only 6 thousand years old and fossils were implanted in rock to confuse us. I get it.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Nov 6, 2017 - 8:34pm
Jesusfuckingchristonagoddamnfuckingcrutch the shit from the thumpers gets deeper and deeper. 
Thomas Napers Added Nov 7, 2017 - 4:02am
So is it your opinion that one can believe in creationism and evolution at the same time?
 
What I don’t understand is why people get so hot and bothered by those that believe the bible is the ultimate source of truth. Your previous two commenters being two examples of what I’m talking about. 
Even A Broken Clock Added Nov 7, 2017 - 10:19am
My God's better than your God.
My God's better than yours.
My God's better 'cause he eats Ken-L-Ration
My God's better than yours
Bill H. Added Nov 7, 2017 - 10:55am
 
When someone tells me that humans and dinosaurs coexisted during the same time period, that pretty much gives me my view on religion.
Narnian Added Nov 7, 2017 - 1:03pm
I am new to this forum, so I don't know if I can respond to individuals.  My answers to those who have commented thus far are as follows: 
Opher, Jeffrey and Broken Clock: Seriously?  I thought this was a site to engage in serious discussions.  Your comments are very childish. 
 
Thomas Napers: Yes, I believe a person can believe in both Creationism and Evolution.  I think the term is "Theistic Evolution".  That being said, I do not personally hold that view. 
I have to agree regarding people who disagree with one's opinion, but won't back it up with a real comment.  Are we supposed to be impressed when those who disagree just post condescending and disparaging remarks. 
 
Bill: I didn't mention anything about dinosaurs.  Since you bring it up, Dr. Carl Baugh (Creation Evidence Museum in Glen Rose, Texas) has evidence that man and dinosaurs did co-exist.  See this link:
http://www.creationevidence.org/displays/burdick_track.php
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Nov 7, 2017 - 1:14pm
Narnian
 
I see that you're new but please understand that the god thing slowly takes overhand on the site. Might as well call it Wishful Blather instead or Writer Beat ;-)
Narnian Added Nov 7, 2017 - 1:19pm
I learned of this from "Disqus", which has different "channels" for different interests.  Is this site set up in a similar way?  If not, are any topics banned?  Don't people discuss religious views here?
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Nov 7, 2017 - 1:38pm
Narnian
 
No, there's no banned topics here and no censorship from a sysop (Autumn). What I simply notice is that there is a flood of articles on religion lately. I don't know if this is a sign of the unsafe times we live in, the danger of war, so people flee into the artificial world of religion for comfort, or if the US is so deeply infected by the god virus.
 
It's just...well..different from Europe where we mostly focus on real issues that concern daily life.
 
We should rather discuss earthly matters instead which can give room for new opinions and clarify things for the ones of us who don't know about a specific item. We have many bright authors here who try to get off the ever returning issues of god, Trump or Nazi/Jew stuff and present other interesting items.
Narnian Added Nov 7, 2017 - 1:48pm
I can appreciate that point of view, and I agree that our unsafe times, terrorism, etc. get people thinking about spiritual matters.  However, I disagree that matters of faith do not concern daily life.  Especially for those with strong faith, it affects our view of everything.  My faith is the lens that I see the natural world through.  From just a casual browse over the home page, I see a wide variety of topics being discussed.  Those who do not wish to engage in religious topics do not have to engage.
 
What topics (or subjects) do you typically bring up or engage in, if I may ask? 
Michael Cikraji Added Nov 7, 2017 - 2:28pm
The New Testament is cool, I am completely into Jesus.
But the Old Testament is largely just whack, particularly about God. Plain and simple. Anyone that thinks it's okay that God enjoys mauling us with lions, bears, snakes, plague, floods, etc. is a bit disturbed....
God as Vengeful Overlord
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Nov 7, 2017 - 2:35pm
Narnian
 
Especially for those with strong faith, it affects our view of everything
 
It may affect this, but it mostly doesn't affect their BEHAVIOR. The big majority talks hypocritically of god and their faith, but when it comes to follow the lifestyle of their Jesus, they miserably fail.
 
I like as subjects: Poems, music, foreign cultures (ok, I'm an Africa freak), international politics (NOT national ones), Humour, global history and strategy.....
 
......but not religion, national matters (be it Europe or the US), because nowadays no matters are national anymore but in fact globally affected, worn-out subjects such as global warming or delusional stuff like creationism or flat earth....;-)
Dino Manalis Added Nov 7, 2017 - 2:36pm
The Bible gives us a path to life with important moral lessons.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Nov 7, 2017 - 2:37pm
...and science such as astronomy, anthropology and sociology are also among my favorites, but I'm by no means an expert on them...
Narnian Added Nov 7, 2017 - 2:43pm
It's commonly viewed that the God of the OT is harsh, vengeful, etc., while the God of the NT is kind and merciful - especially in the Person of Jesus. The OT does have plenty of examples to support your view. 
However, it's the same God.  Rather than being vindictive, the OT shows that God is just, forgiving, patient, and slow to judgment.  However, He is also holy, just, and righteous. 
The Bible is ultimately the grand story of God's love, grace, and redemption.  God redeemed us by coming to Earth as the Man Jesus, who died for our sins and rose again.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Nov 7, 2017 - 2:43pm
Dino
 
The Bible gives us a path to life with important moral lessons
 
We should be intelligent enough to learn these lessons without external help by an advice book. An open mind and tolerant and educated parents at first should suffice. Mine were like that, and I think I'm a pretty peaceful atheist who follows those Bible rules without a Bible or god. Why ?
 
A VERY simple phrase everybody knows is enough for all that:
 
Don't do to anyone what you don't want to be done to you.
Michael Cikraji Added Nov 7, 2017 - 2:50pm
Hey Narnian,
What if through Jesus we turned God into a better, more compassionate, loving being? 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Nov 7, 2017 - 2:57pm
Michael
 
Goodie, that one. Worth a thought !
Narnian Added Nov 7, 2017 - 3:03pm
Stone-Eater
The responses come faster than I can catch them, so I am probably answering out of order.  Anyway, I believe that one's faith often does affect one's behavior.  Of course, too many people who claim to be religious don't "walk the talk". 
You definitely like some interesting topics.  I like history, but know very little of African history.  I agree that the topics you mentioned are pretty worn out. 
As you say, we should be intelligent enough to treat each other with respect and dignity.  However, I believe the Bible is about more than just the Golden Rule, but eternal salvation.  Of course, that really wasn't the topic of my post.  Also, I'm certainly not here to "push" Christ onto anyone. 
Narnian Added Nov 7, 2017 - 3:06pm
Michael
We don't affect God, but we can learn to understand Him through Jesus.  In John 14:9, Jesus said "anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father".  His ultimate act of love was on the Cross.
Michael Cikraji Added Nov 7, 2017 - 3:08pm
Narnian,
Amen, brother. You're preaching to the choir. But was Jesus' love so great that he also helped God to understand us? 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Nov 7, 2017 - 3:10pm
Fair enough...except
 
eternal salvation.
 
That one made me cough LOL
 
BTW: My articles on recent African daily life didn't get much reply, as I assumed...and African HISTORY would even get less responses. So I mostly write poems and comment on other articles for the time being, because many of my subjects are also covered by other writers who are mainly anglophone and have a bigger vocabulary than me.
 
But when I'm back in Africa I'll surely write more articles about my life there.
Narnian Added Nov 7, 2017 - 3:31pm
Michael,
I can appreciate that.  Has it ever occurred to you...that nothing occurs to God.  By His very nature, He is omniscient.  He created us, and has always understood us far greater than we could imagine.  The love of Jesus was an extension of the Father's love.
Narnian Added Nov 7, 2017 - 3:33pm
Stone-Eater,
Glad I got you to laugh.  If I may ask, how is it that you've spent time in Africa?
Even A Broken Clock Added Nov 7, 2017 - 3:35pm
Narnian - sorry about my frivolous post. Call me a dyslexic jingle singer - I remember that Ken-L-Ration commercial jingle from a long time ago, and it just clicked with the post you made.
 
I'm a retired engineer with broad interests in the sciences. I had an opinion on whether the universe was created via big bang or via the steady state theory in second grade, just before the cosmic microwave background radiation was discovered that clinched it for the big bang.
 
My own belief system is that something triggered the act of creation. I'll call that God. Ever since one creature on one of the vast number of planets gained the ability of language, that creature has been searching for the divine, in order to help make sense of what can be a senseless life and death.
 
This universal striving is genuine, I believe. Where I will diverge from your post and stated beliefs is that you think a single manifestation of the spark of the divine is the sole and utter truth for all time, amen. I'm sorry, but my view of the divine is much larger than a single series of stories taken down and sanitized over the millennia. I choose to worship the divine through membership at an Episcopal church, but even though I repeat creeds weekly, I don't necessarily believe in their inherent infallibility and in their absolute accuracy.
 
I could debate you on your science perspective, but you probably wouldn't accept my arguments.
Michael Cikraji Added Nov 7, 2017 - 3:49pm
Narnian, 
You have:
Has it ever occurred to you...that nothing occurs to God. By His very nature, He is omniscient. He created us, and has always understood us far greater than we could imagine.
 
 
Yes, that did occur to me. Then I remembered that us humans are very imperfect beings indeed. By definition, a perfect being cannot create imperfection. Given the depraved level of imperfection that we humans have....
 
Also, there are multiple times in the Bible when men, like Moses, have to go and calm God down
It also occurred to me that the Old Testament God isn't what He appears to be. Did you know that the Old Testament concept of Yahweh actually derives from an ancient PAGAN god of war and fire named "El"? No shit. Here's the proof:
 
Angel = "Messenger of EL"
Gabriel = "Man of EL"
Michael = "Who is like EL"
Raphael = "EL heals"
 
OR = ISRAEL = "The land of EL"
Narnian Added Nov 7, 2017 - 3:51pm
Broken Clock,
My apologies for a "knee-jerk" reaction.  Now that you mention it, I remember that commercial from when I was a kid (too many years ago). 
You are actually the first to return to the original point.  While I don't totally understand your viewpoint of the divine, I respect it, as well as your view of the Bible. 
I'm glad you aren't debating me regarding science, because I'm not really very strong in science.  I rely on sources such as "Answers in Genesis" and "Institute for Creation Research" to understand the science behind creation.  I've had many discussions with skeptics who claim that my sources are not "true science", and that's fair enough.  While I enjoy a good discussion, I am not really out to change anyone's mind.  If I happen to persuade someone of my point of view, it's probably just my dumb luck.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2017 - 4:04pm
Narn - the bible is a medieval text that came straight out of a Jewish cult from an Arabic tribal culture. It is full of cultural baggage and misogyny courtesy of that rather primitive culture. The Old Testament is a mish-mash of old myths and stories - mainly Sumerian. The New Testament was only really put together by Constantine for political purposes. At the Nicene symposium they decided what should be in or out and burnt the rest as heresy.
The USA was set up by a bunch of religious extremists and has promulgated this mass  psychosis ever since.
I see the creationists and all the fundamentalists as a bunch of crazy nutters. If you take that stuff literally then I think you are either mad or brainwashed. You obviously know nothing of its history.
Narnian Added Nov 7, 2017 - 4:06pm
Michael,
Your list of "EL"s was really cool.  Regarding Moses and getting God to calm down, we have a question of whether God really does change His mind as if He is learning something.  On the other hand, He revealed Himself to Moses as "YHWH" - the Self-Existent One.  The various "names" of God we see in the OT were more of descriptions.
God has always know the condition of the Jews, even when He was seemingly ready to destroy them.  Numbers 23:19 tells us the "God is not a man, that he might lie, or a son of man, that he might change his mind".  If God did literally change His mind because He found something out, then He would not be omniscient.  1 John 3:20, which tells us that "God knows all things" would not be true.  Therefore, the Bible itself would be untrustworthy. 
It makes more sense that God waited for a reason, threatened to destroy Israel, and allowed Moses to intercede on their behalf so they would be saved.
Narnian Added Nov 7, 2017 - 4:20pm
Opher,
I must respectfully disagree.  Your knowledge of the Bible's history is very inaccurate.  The New Testament was together long before Constantine.  Your knowledge of the Nicene Council is also faulty. 
At least you recognize that the USA was founded under Christian principles.  That is more than a lot of skeptics will admit. 
Of course I take the Bible literally.  On that note, how well do you know the Bible?  I ask, because, as one who takes the Bible literally, I hope you can help me understand a certain passage.  In Exodus 33:3, God tells the Israelites that He will lead them into "a land flowing with milk and honey".  How would the Israelites be able to walk around in that mess?  With milk and honey everywhere, it must have been awful.  What do you think?
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2017 - 4:41pm
No - I beg to differ. The Nicene council gathered together all the documents and decided what was in and what was out. They burnt the ones that didn't fit as heresy.
The US was founded by religious extremists. Fortunately they had a couple of atheists amongst them who kept them on the straight and narrow.
I think they were lucky not to come to a sticky end - particularly if they sat down.
Narnian Added Nov 7, 2017 - 4:47pm
Clearly, we disagree about the Nicene Council and whether the US Founders were "religious extremists".  I guess it really doesn't matter too much, though.  In both cases, it's history that has long passed.  Glad you didn't mind my "milk and honey" joke.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Nov 7, 2017 - 5:13pm
Narnian
 
That story would fill a book dating from 1993 to now ;)
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Nov 7, 2017 - 5:14pm
BTW...a lifelong love affair....
Narnian Added Nov 7, 2017 - 5:18pm
Anything that can be described as "a lifelong love affair" sounds rather fascinating.  You must have led a most interesting life.
Steve Bergeron Added Nov 7, 2017 - 6:22pm
The Canon of the Bible was decided at the Councils of Hippo (393 A.D.) and Carthage (began in 394 A.D.).  The councils went through over 300 writings that were considered sacred, coming up with the 27 that comprise the New Testament as being "worthy" of belonging in the Bible.  The Old Testament was easier.  There were two versions at that time, the Hebrew version, whose canon wasn't decided until the late first, early second century, as a sort of reaction to Christianity converting Jews), and the Septuagent, which was the Greek version.  The Church chose the Septuagent version because the vast majority of references in the New Testament came from that version, so they believed that was the version used by Christ and the Apostles most often.  The different versions is also the reason why most Protestant versions have seven books less in their Bibles than Catholics.  Martin Luther, on his own authority, adopted the Hebrew version, which has seven less books.
Even A Broken Clock Added Nov 7, 2017 - 6:51pm
Narnian, as both Steve and Opher have noted, there was a committee decision made hundreds of years after the events of the New Testament occurred, where the committee decision determined what made the cut and what did not. That is exactly what I was referring to when I said that the story of the bible represented a sanitized version of history.
 
You mention the source of some of your beliefs regarding science. Let me relate a personal anecdote. A few years ago, I took the opportunity to visit the Creation museum in Petersburg Kentucky, with my family. I was very circumspect as we went through the museum, seeing the displays of blatant falsehoods presented as gospel. I did not exhibit my true feelings. Once we got outside after completing the indoctrination course, onto the patio where we could purchase ice cream and gelato, I broke out into uncontrollable laughter. I was amazed that such idiocy could be presented as biblical fact, and my wife was concerned that the armed guards stationed around the place would view my outburst as one that would require an armed response.
 
I have never in my life seen such tripe presented as fact. On the other hand, I will admit they had a few good fossils and crystal rock specimens to see.
 
The god of the creationists is such a limiting concept. What is truly inspiring is the originator of the universe who could invent the laws of physics, and use powers still not understood to inflate the universe much faster than the speed of life, to develop a universe where creation is continuing to this day. Imagine Jesus coming off the bench in yet another planet where the sentient civilization is ready for the message of redemption. All Jesus wants to know is what is the life form of the sentient civilization, and what are their origin myths. Then he is dispatched to send his message of salvation.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2017 - 6:51pm
Thanks for that Steve - I stand corrected. Apologies Narnian. Same difference though.
The bible sure ain't gospel.
Steve Bergeron Added Nov 7, 2017 - 7:10pm
Clock, that's interesting.  So many people do not understand the Bible, and are certainly not the authentic and authoritative interpreters needed to get the message correct, but pass themselves off as "experts."  You are so right!  The Bible is not a science book, nor was it ever intended to be.  
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 7, 2017 - 10:25pm
Opher
 
I'm curious in what manner you think the Founders were kept on the, "Straight and Narrow," by these atheists?
 
Those most distrustful of government, both in matters of ruling honestly and in matters of religion, was in fact Puritan New England.
opher goodwin Added Nov 8, 2017 - 5:37am
Well there is Tom Paine to start with - he had a lot of influence -
So Paine’s a hero, right? He was also a radical Deist whose later work, The Age of Reason, still infuriates fundamentalists. In the tome, Paine attacked institutionalized religion and all of the major tenets of Christianity. He rejected prophecies and miracles and called on readers to embrace reason. The Bible, Paine asserted, can in no way be infallible. He called the god of the Old Testament “wicked” and the entire Bible “the pretended word of God.”
Then there were George Washington, James Adams, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. All of whom had dubious religious beliefs if any.
They put into place a constitution that prevented religion taking over the country. They prevented it becoming a theocracy.
Unfortunately, despite that, I believe that America is an intolerant back-door theocracy.
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 8, 2017 - 5:47am
Yeah, but it was the crotchety Puritans, who thought that everyone, everywhere, was always up to no good without being watched, who insisted on the structural mechanisms which made that possible.
 
If you appreciate the Establishment Clause, you have Puritanical Paranoia to thank for it.
opher goodwin Added Nov 8, 2017 - 6:06am
Pagan - I don't deny that. You don't get a bunch of religious fanatics fleeing to set up their own society without it having a great deal of influence. The wonder is that the religious extremism has persisted in the States for so long. It is certainly dying over here in Europe.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Nov 8, 2017 - 7:14am


When someone tells me that humans and dinosaurs coexisted during the same time period, that pretty much gives me my view on religion.






Narnian Added Nov 7, 2017 - 1:03pm






I am new to this forum, so I don't know if I can respond to individuals.  My answers to those who have commented thus far are as follows: 
Opher, Jeffrey and Broken Clock: Seriously?  I thought this was a site to engage in serious discussions.  Your comments are very childish. 
 
Indeed about the coexistence of humans and dino and the need to flee from the bible on such proclamation.
 
Heck, the creature that was to become humans were scampering in the trees trying to avoid being eaten by Rex.
 

Stone-Eater Friedli Added Nov 8, 2017 - 8:07am
Narnian
 
For sure I had and have an interesting life. But it's one's own choice if he has one or not ;-)
Narnian Added Nov 8, 2017 - 9:21am
Steve Bergeron,
You are right in that the Council of Hippo was the first to affirm the 27 books of the NT.  There were earlier "canons" (e.g. the Muratorian Canon of AD 170) which did not have the books that we have today.  I am guessing you are well aware of that, though.
Michael Cikraji Added Nov 8, 2017 - 10:06am
Hey Opher,
In two different responses you have:
 
The USA was set up by a bunch of religious extremists and has promulgated this mass  psychosis ever since.
 
Then there were George Washington, James Adams, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. All of whom had dubious religious beliefs if any.
 
So, do you think the USA's founders were religious zealots or not?
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 8, 2017 - 10:58am
Narnian, welcome to WriterBeat. Just understand People of Faith are like Daniel in the Lions Den of Atheism here. No one believed in Christ Jesus until he started to talk.
 
While Stone Eater and others might be chagrined because >>> What I simply notice is that there is a flood of articles on religion lately.<<< personally, I'm glad to see it increase so much since I joined.
 
But in my "Personal" Faith, I don't see this as being True as you do,
'The Bible is the Ultimate Source of Truth"
 
You can know the Bible by heart and not know the heart of God. Christ testifies to this by these words, You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
This people draws close to me with their mouth, and honour me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Those words are not addressed to Atheists, but to those who claim to embody the Spirit of Christ.
 
To say the Bible is the Ultimate Source of Truth is a misconception of the Reality.
 
The Bible is a Good Book. It has everything in it people do Today, both Atheists and the Faithful, Seculat and Religious. It covers the Economy, War and Peace and everything between. But ultimately it's just a Book with both Good and Evil things written and described between it's covers.
 
Even though our TIME, 2017, is measured after the Birth of Christ, I believe this world is still operating under the terms of the Old Testament where God created GOOD and EVIL. Makes War and Peace. The God and Father of Christ Jesus is ALL GOOD and a Peacemaker, Healer and Forgiver of Sins.
 
In the Book, the Living Christ says, I am the way, the truth, and the life:
In another part he says, Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
 
But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by Faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Before Faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the Faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law a.k.a. the Bible, was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by Faith.
But after that Faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
 
For you are all the children of God by Faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile), there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if you be Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
Israelis don't accept that!
 
Narnian Added Nov 8, 2017 - 11:26am
Thank you, Ray. 
I really appreciate your comments - especially since you obviously put a lot of thought into them.  I also thank you for your encouraging words.  I do feel like I've stepped into a "lion's den".  (Funny, as I am currently doing an in-depth study of the Book of Daniel.) 
What you say definitely makes sense.  While I believe the Bible to be absolutely true, Christ declares Himself to be "the Way, the Truth, and the Life".  I believe the Bible to be inerrant, but I also realize that our modern translations have been known to have mistakes.  Even with their variances in translation, though, I believe none have strayed from the core teachings of becoming "children of God by Faith in Christ Jesus".  As you say, Israelis don't accept that (except for Messianic Jews, of course).
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 8, 2017 - 12:10pm
Opher
 
Religion endured in America because of the bottom-up approach of disestablishment.
 
The top-down establishment European model, made the Church into an arm of the state, preaching the temporary interests of the government, cloaked behind the mask of proclaiming the eternal will of God.
 
Think about it, if your budget comes from the public treasury, obviously you are going to say that the taxes which support it are righteous and fair. Likewise if the Crown determines whether or not you get the additional funds to repair your church's damaged roof, you would not dare suggest that the King's wars are ever anything other than moral and justified.
 
Religion isn't going to mean much to people, when its just government propaganda from the pulpit.
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 8, 2017 - 12:59pm
Narnian
 
Doesn't the belief in the Bible's inerrancy also demand a very discipled and objective clarity about what it really is saying?
 
Does the Bible ever make an attempt to spell out the mechanics of the natural world?
 
Does the Bible say that God is limited to human understanding of the passage of time, or does it suggest that God is so incomprehensibly beyond us limited human beings, the the concept of the "Day" is completely meaningless?
 
Does it say that God's every action is spectacularly supernatural, or does it describe a God who prefers to work subtly, through the mechanics of his creation, and who only performs miracles to get get through the thick skulls of stubborn human beings?
 
I disagree with the Bible, but I don't object to it, so I will judge it fairly.
 
But to me, I don't think that its fair to hold even its claims of inerrancy, to the standard of expecting God to even try to explain, just going off of our superficial current scientific understanding, concepts like galaxies, supermassive black holes, atoms, thermonuclear fusion, DNA, cells, photosynthesis, and so on, to a man for whom the height of technology was The Wheel.
 
The two simple chapters at the Bible's start is to establish the Truth that all which materially exists came into being and assumed its current form by the deliberate Will of God, and that the sentient being possessed of Free Will which is man, is a special creation made for a reason.
 
The facts about exactly how that was done, have no specific bearing on that.
Narnian Added Nov 8, 2017 - 1:37pm
Pagan Tea Partier,
Fair questions, so I'll attempt to give them an intelligent answer. 
Inerrancy - Yes, if you mean that the reader needs to be open to what God reveals to him. 
Mechanics of the natural world - Certainly not in the sense of a science book.  There are several passages where God does reveal "earth sciences", though.  Consider Job 38: 16-24.  It wasn't until the early 20th century that deep sea springs were discovered (v. 16-17).  Light always travels in a "way", but darkness doesn't travel.  It has a "place" (v. 19).  It's only in modern times that we've learned that sunlight heats the earth, which causes the temperature to rise, which causes wind (v. 24). 
Limited Understanding - The Bible tells us that there is no limit to God's understanding.  The passage about time is a matter of His perspective vs ours. 
Supernatural - God does work through the mechanics of His creation.  However, He has also performed many supernatural acts (reversing the course of the sun, raising the dead back to life, etc.) for His own purposes. 
I truly appreciate that you don't object to the Bible, even though you disagree with it.  Fair enough.  God created the galaxies, DNA, etc., so we should learn all we can about them.  Many early discoveries were made by devout Christians who studied nature, the stars, etc. 
Genesis explains our origins and is the beginning of God's plan for mankind.  He did make man with free will.  We are not His pets, nor are we automations. 
While we disagree, you have been very civil and thoughtful.
john guzlowski Added Nov 8, 2017 - 2:43pm
There are 40,000 different Christian denominations.  
 
Each one reads the bible differently.
 
What's the lesson here?  
 
There is no true truth in the bible?  Just a lot of Meshuga?
 
john guzlowski Added Nov 8, 2017 - 2:47pm
Ken Ham?  Wasn't he that guy who taught high school science for a few years and got tired of grading and quit?
 
Narnian Added Nov 8, 2017 - 2:49pm
John,
While there are thousands of Christian denominations, there is only one Bible.  While each denomination may understand some segments or teachings differently, they agree on most major teachings.  The lesson is, even among Christians who disagree about doctrines or teachings, the Bible is the source for their belief. 
Even those who believe the Bible to be more mythology than inspired by God agree on many truths in the Bible - e.g. the Proverbs generally hold true for everyone.  Likewise, the teachings of Jesus generally hold true for everyone.
Dave Volek Added Nov 8, 2017 - 3:05pm
I'm finding the original article vague and inconclusive. And as for some the interpretations, I would say Scriptures have been bent to suit the opinion of the writer. But that is just me, take my opinion for whatever it is worth.
 
But there is an interesting comment about the tone of the Old Testament and the tone of the NewTestament.
 
Although the Old Testament was a story that lasted over centuries, it chronicles the history of the Hebrew people. They had to fight to survive in a hostile world. If they had taken on a more pacifist nature, the OT just might have not been written.
 
The New Testament, on the other hand, was offering humanity a new humanistic culture that was much better than the Roman culture of personal advantage and gain. Christianity was the social force that held the pieces somewhat together as the Roman Empire declined. 
 
So the two books are for two different times. The stage had changed, and it was time for a new play to be written.
 
 
Narnian Added Nov 8, 2017 - 3:05pm
Ken Ham - President, CEO and founder of Answers in Genesis.  He had a much higher calling than teaching high school science.
Narnian Added Nov 8, 2017 - 3:13pm
Dave,
Actually, the original article was a series of responses from conversations I had on the Disqus website.  Autumn Cote asked if she could post it here, which was okay by me.  That's why it's pretty vague.  Much of it was in response to others.  
 
I must admit that, while I've heard different views on why the Old Testament and the New Testament seem so different, yours is a little different.  You seem to be a bit of a historian, and I can appreciate that type of perspective.   
There is an old saying that "the New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, and the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed".  The two are very connected, especially regarding the prophecies about the Messiah and redemption for mankind.
opher goodwin Added Nov 8, 2017 - 3:48pm
Pagan - I see the hypocrites of American politicians spouting their religious beliefs and pandering. Their actions belie their words. Religion is used in America to gain power. America is so soaked in religion that nobody can get on without it. You have to join in or you are excluded and shunned. America is a backdoor theocracy.
opher goodwin Added Nov 8, 2017 - 3:53pm
Narnian - only one Bible? Surely to start with there are two distinct Bibles - Old and New. Very different in every respect. Secondly, what about the majority of material that was dumped as heresy? There's enough to make a third and fourth Bible there.
These books were arbitrarily put together and we are expected to believe they are the word of God? I think not. They are a compilation of medieval texts some of which are very good and interesting and some of which are either poor, childish or incredibly nasty.
I prefer the sense and logic of the UN's charter of Human Rights. It isn't ambiguous or contradictory like those ancient compilations.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 8, 2017 - 3:54pm
While I can't articulate the whole Vision, I think Canadians are destined to become the "Chosen People" for OUR TIMES.
 
As the Jews and Palestinians are still at War over possession of the "Promised Land" and the inheritance of Abraham over there, as a People with a Diaspora from All Nations, CanaDa also has it's National Identity rooted in the physical Plains of Abraham in Quebec City. This is a Spiritual Sign Canadians have recognized yet.
 
In addition, by the design of the God of Nature and History, CanaDa is the Buffer between the US and Russia, Canada's neighbour on the other side of the North Pole.
Narnian Added Nov 8, 2017 - 4:13pm
Opher,
Yes, there is only one Bible as I've have explained.  You reject the Bible, and that is your right, of course.  It's been an interesting, but I don't think we really have anything more to discuss on this subject.  All the best to you.
Narnian Added Nov 8, 2017 - 4:25pm
Ray,
I must say that is a surprising statement about the Canadians.  I didn't know the Canadian history you've described. 
 
To be completely honest, I have a completely different take on the "Promised Land" inheritance.  Based on several passages (e.g. Joshua 21:43-45, Nehemiah 9:8), I believe this promise was fulfilled in the OT.  In regards to my views on "End Times", I am a Partial-Preterist.  That is, I believe most of prophecies in the Bible have been fulfilled.  I could go into more detail, but this is not a discussion about the "End Times".  Besides, you might be right.  Only God knows for sure.
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 8, 2017 - 4:26pm
Narnian
 
You missed my point.
 
I did not ask if there are insights about natural mechanics to be found within its pages, I'm asking if the Bible ever presents a comprehensive understanding of the natural mechanics, in such a way as to suggest that our understanding of these things matters to God.
 
Whether there are clues to be found or not, teaching us about physics is not what the Bible is trying to do in the first place.
 
Nor was I trying to ask whether God has the capacity to act miraculously, I am asking whether the Bible describes a God who would have any reason to violate the physical laws which he authored, before there were any humans around to deliver a message to.
 
Why would you expect physical evidence to exist, of God intervening in the formation of the material universe, or in the development of life on Earth; what reason would he have had to need to break the laws he authored and circumvent the natural processes which he designed; wouldn't it make a whole lot more sense to assume that he is intelligent enough, that all of the influence he would ever need to exert his will upon his creation, was already "baked into the pie" at the moment of creation?
 
As for Time, yes the Bible describes that difference in perspective, but it is also material fact that the passage of time is not constant within the Universe. It is a property of space and is distorted by matter in the same way that produces a gravitational field. To a being which exists independently of our material universe, our understanding of the passage of time really would have no meaning at all.
 
Take all of the collective body of human history, put it in the perspective of God, now ask yourself, if you were to stand before God right now, and ask him how long ago he created everything, would you honestly expect any other answer than, "Oh, I just did that last week."
 
I'm not actually trying to argue about the inerrancy of the Bible, I am simply saying that I would not judge that based upon the expectation, that it would have been in any way possible for God to have revealed the totality of how he created the universe, to a man who had absolutely no conceptual context with which to understand it.
 
Considering the fact that we have mathematically demonstrated that there must be at LEAST 10 dimensions, and we know that we have no understanding at all of 6 of them. And considering the fact that we have no reason to doubt, that there is so much more beyond what we already know that we are ignorant of, that we are too ignorant to even perceive the full scope of just how ignorant we really are.
 
Do you really think that if God were to reveal how he created the universe to us right this second, either of us would have the capacity to understand what we were witnessing?
 
Moses would have had a better chance of grasping applied quantum mechanics.
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 8, 2017 - 4:33pm
Opher
 
You are talking about culture, the US Constitution spells out a system of government.
 
And in the system the Constitution spells out, that government is supposed to be ruled by, and be reflective of, the organic culture of the people from who's consent that government's just powers derive.
Narnian Added Nov 8, 2017 - 4:43pm
My apologies for misunderstanding your meaning, Pagan. 
I am not even sure what quantum mechanics is, to be honest.  Is it related to quantum physics?  (Not that I know what that is, either.)  I believe you, but I've got the "deer in the headlights" look about now.  I can't even imagine a 5th dimension (aside from the music group, of course), let alone 10 of them.  
You make a good point about God revealing how He created the universe would totally blow us away.  Truly, as God tells us in Isaiah 55:9, "For as heaven is higher than earth, so My ways are higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."
Steve Bergeron Added Nov 8, 2017 - 5:04pm
John Guzlowski, you brought up something interesting.  Protestantism has splintered into tens of thousands of different-believing denominations, all based on some individual's personal interpretation of the Bible.  Christ founded one Church, not 40,000 denominations, and that one Church has never changed the deposit of faith given it through the Apostles and their successors, the bishops for 2000 years now.  The truth cannot contradict itself, and neither does God's truth.  The problem is that while we claim the Bible is infallible, it requires an infallible, authentic, and authoritative interpreter.  Else, you end up with what Protestantism has become, where you have as many different doctrines as you have self-interpreters.
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 8, 2017 - 6:18pm
Narnian
 
Yes its related to quantum physics, which is the description of our current understanding of how matter behaves at the subatomic level. Applied quantum mechanics would be an understanding not only of the physics, but of the engineering principles behind what happens inside a particle accelerator.
 
That is a book that scientists today, have only just begun to sketch the first concepts of.
 
Now, if anyone were to say that the Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution disproves the existence of God, then you can laugh in their face at the hubris of thinking that those theories represent a sufficiently detailed understanding, to make such an assertion.
 
If the history of science teaches us anything at all, it is that the more we learn, the more those theories will prove to be as naively simplistic as the early models of the atom were.
 
But these theories are not wrong simply because they do not match up with the exact biblical account, because the biblical account never even tried to express the details which science is struggling to understand.
 
The Genesis account describes a singular moment of creation, which produced chaos. It then describes a process by which that chaos was repeatedly sculpted to form an orderly universe.
 
It then describes God breathing life into that universe, which was then built on in stages to produce the natural ecosystem which we see today.
 
It then describes the formation of sentient beings which are capable of subjugating that ecosystem and the matter upon which it rests.
 
That is the substance of what science describes. The only difference is that science is really trying to figure out the exact mechanics of how that happened, where as the Genesis account is God giving us limited mortals the children's story version, because the full totality of it all is beyond our comprehension.
opher goodwin Added Nov 8, 2017 - 6:42pm
Pagan - the constitution seems written in stone to me. Take the 2nd Amendment - in the face of the terrible attrition due to the archaic rule written hundreds of years ago, pertaining to a totally different time, era and culture, you are saddled with lunacy that seemingly can't be changed because it is a right enshrouded in the constitution. Hundreds of thousands of people die.
opher goodwin Added Nov 8, 2017 - 6:43pm
Narnian - why no response to my assertion? You merely ducked it. One bible??? No.
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 8, 2017 - 8:04pm
Opher
 
Its not written in stone, its been amended over a dozen times since the Bill of Rights was ratified.
 
The 2nd Amendment endures because the American People still support it.
 
All of the calls for gun control after these attacks happen, don't go anywhere because they don't wind up inspiring public support.
 
We tried gun control as a reaction to these shootings, they never actually stopped. And of all of the high profile incidents in the last decade or so, none of the measures being proposed would have prevented a single one of them.
 
We the People look at the situation and ask ourselves only one question. If I ever found myself confronting a situation like that, would I rather be armed or not?
 
And THAT is why there is nowhere close to 37 state legislatures that would be willing to face their voters after ratifying a repeal of the 2nd Amendment.
Flying Junior Added Nov 9, 2017 - 3:13am
Welcome Narnian,
 
I was lucky enough to have been a third grader in Kensington starting Christmas of 1967.  Our teacher thought it important to read to us from the famous series.  I bought the Penguin paperback anthology to bring back home to the states where I read and thoroughly enjoyed every volume.
 
As an organist I have had opportunity to discuss the theology and bibliography of C.S. Lewis.  Unparalleled theology integrated into top drawer children's literature.  I still have the original set in a cardboard slide-in box.  I am afraid to give them away because surely the pages will fall out when read.
 
It became very much a part of who I am.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 9, 2017 - 7:30am
Glad to see you keep an open mind, Narnian. Even though you say this is not a discussion of "End Times" if, as your article title suggests, that is part of Biblical Truth so why limit discussion?
 
As to what's in the Bible, the last sentence in the last Gospel of John the Divine says a lot to me;
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
John21:25
Steve Bergeron Added Nov 9, 2017 - 7:34am
With regard to the writings in the Bible, the Old Testament writings began about 1400 years ago, give or take.   The New Testament writings began in the first century, and ended with the death of the last Apostle, St. John.  The Old Testament clearly pointed to Christ (provided one knows how to properly interpret it), and the New Testament fulfills the Old Testament.  The books were written by mere men, under the inspiration of God, but not outside of their abilities and culture.  The was written solely for the sake of our salvation.  Not for scientific facts, or anything else.  
When the Church decided on which books went into the New Testament, it prayed to the Holy Spirit for guidance, and ended up with the 27 books we now have.  It's not that the other almost 300 books, letters, etc., were completely wrong, but that they didn't rise to the level of "Scripture."  Or, sometimes they did have an untruth that didn't line up with what had always been taught.
Keep in mind the perspective that it's only been in the last 100 years or so that universal literacy was of interest to mankind.  Before that, the vast majority of people didn't read or write, because they didn't need to do so to survive.  Most work was manual, etc.  So, oral teaching, referred to by the Church and the Bible, was more important.  Christ's truths were handed down from generation to generation, mostly orally at first.  Not by reading a book.  We have to be careful of not falling into bibliolatry (Bible worship).  The Word of God is not a book.  It is a Person, Jesus Christ.   "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  St. John was clearly referring to Jesus Christ in the beginning of his Gospel.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 9, 2017 - 7:50am
Steve, you write, " So, oral teaching, referred to by the Church and the Bible, was more important."
 
Have you seen how Oral transmission of a joke changes as it is passed on orally from person to person?
 
I always thought Moses wrote the Books covering the 2000 years from Genesis to his Time.
Steve Bergeron Added Nov 9, 2017 - 8:13am
Ray, that's a good point!  Oral transmission, left solely to humans, changes very quickly.  However, we are talking about Oral Tradition (capital "T"), which is also known as Holy Tradition.  This has passed on under the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit, for 2000 years now.  It is not by man's ability alone.  Christ did not leave a book for us to find and learn His truths.  He left a Church, which St. Paul calls the "body of Christ."  He said he would send the Holy Spirit to guide it into all truth, and the "gates of hell would never prevail" over the Church.  This means that the Church would never teach doctrinal error.  And, it hasn't .  In 2000 years, the Church has never changed a doctrine.  Matters of discipline, yes.  But, then, most secular folks these days don't know how to tell the difference between the two.  Sad.
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 8:45am
Opher,
The Old Testament and the New Testament make up one Holy Bible.  Most people (even atheists) accept that.  I'm not really trying to duck the question.  I have been pretty busy the last couple of days, and will still be pretty busy today. 
I could point you to websites that describe the Bible's history, but I honestly think that you are familiar with it. 
I am trying to catch up with some responses, then I will be out until next week.
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 8:51am
Pagan,
If I understand your comments, you are basically giving a scientific summary of the Creation account in Genesis.  What you've said makes sense.  As you say, Genesis gives a simplified account of what has happened, because we are just now beginning to understand some of the quantum mechanics and science behind it. 
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 8:55am
Flying Junior,
Thank you for sharing.  By coincidence, C.S. Lewis was one of the first Christian authors I was introduced to after I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior.  I was 19, and full of questions.  The allegorical style of "The Chronicles of Narnia", as well as his "Mere Christianity", "The Problem of Pain", and several others greatly influenced my life.
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 10:07am
Ray,
Always a good idea to be open regarding anything you cannot know for sure, right?  Regarding topics such as the "End Times", I can study and ponder, but the only thing I know for sure is that I don't know for sure. 
Your quote from the end of St. John's Gospel is most appropriate.
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 10:11am
Steve Bergeron,
Pretty concise history of the Bible.  If I may ask, are you a Theologian?  You certainly come across as one who knows more than the average layman.
opher goodwin Added Nov 9, 2017 - 10:24am
Narnian - don't you accept that the two books artificially joined to make the Bible have different origins, different context and even a very different God?  They are indeed very different books. The old testament was in circulation prior to Jesus. The New testament was conjoined to it for a variety of reasons - mainly to give it a credence that it otherwise would not have possessed.
Bill Kamps Added Nov 9, 2017 - 11:06am
Narnian, the Bible is a religious book for Christians.  For people who are not Christians, it is just a book.  You dont really need to justify it with history, it is completely based on the faith you have in the  Christian Church.   If one has faith, it all makes sense, if one lacks faith, it doesnt matter and isn't in and of itself proof that the Christian God is the one and only God.  Other religions say their books prove much  the same.  Your faith, makes the difference.
 
It gets confusing with the Old Testament, since that is largely a set of Jewish accounts, passed on by oral tradition.  Whether the Christian or Jewish God guided these writing Im sure depends on what religion you are.  Even the Gospels differ quite a bit, and were written at different times.  A secular person would say that the earlier ones are more "Jewish" while the later ones are more "Christian" in style.  Maybe this is what the Holy Spirit intended, who knows. 
 
Steve, perhaps doctrine hasnt change while discipline has.  To people like Galileo who were put in prison, presumably over discipline, the distinction matters very little.  When the Church imprisons people for being against "discipline", when it allows pedophiles to escape the rule of law, it undermines itself in the eyes of secular world, and presumably also with the faithful.
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 11:11am
Opher - Actually, I do not accept that theory.  The Bible has one consistent theme and message throughout both testaments.  They were both inspired by the same God.  The purpose of the Bible is to reveal who God is, His will for mankind, and to document prophecies about the Messiah.
You are right, of course, that the Old Testament was in circulation prior to Jesus.  Jesus Himself said "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me."  Whenever St. Paul or the other New Testament writers make reference to the Scriptures, they are pointing to the Old Testament. 
 
The focus of the Bible is Christ Jesus.  The individual books of the New Testament already had credence in the first century. 
Hebrews 1:1-2 shows the relationship between the testaments: "Long ago God spoke to the fathers by the prophets at different times and in different ways.  In these last days, He has spoken to us by His Son.  God has appointed Him heir of all things and made the universe through Him." 
In 2 Peter 1:16, the Apostle declares "For we did not follow cleverly contrived myths when we made know to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ; instead, we were eyewitness of His majesty." 
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 11:23am
Bill,
You make a valid point in that the Bible is "just a book" to non-Christians.  Actually, your comments agree with a passage that we cannot understand the Bible without the Holy Spirit. 
On a personal note, before I gave my life to Christ, a friend had been trying to get me converted for a long time.  I finally had enough, so I accepted a Bible that he offered me.  Then I ripped it to shreds right in front of him and told him what I thought of his religion.  My friend was shocked, but he didn't get mad.  He just told me that he would pray that I see the truth some day.  About a year later, I did.  Eventually, I apologized to my friend for my hateful action. 
I must agree with you on this.  While I believe the Bible to be the Ultimate Source of Truth, a Muslim may make the same claim regarding the Koran. 
john guzlowski Added Nov 9, 2017 - 11:29am
Narian, interesting response.  You agree  that though there are 10 of 1000s of different denominations they all agree on certain truths that appear in the Bible -- the old and new testament alike, I assume.
Which are the 10 major teachings that all Christians agree on?
Thank you.  I await your answer.
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 12:04pm
John,
Thank you.  Interesting challenge.  All Christians should agree upon the following teachings from the Bible. 
1. God created the universe.
2. Adam and Eve fell from grace when they sinned.
3. The Deity of Christ - He is God in the flesh. 
4. Jesus was crucified to pay the penalty for our sins.
5. The Resurrection of Christ
6. There is only one God
7. Salvation is by Grace through faith. 
8. Jesus is the only way to salvation. 
9. Jesus lived a sinless life.
10. God created the universe.
The Bible is very clear about each of these doctrines.  If someone claims to be Christian, but rejects any of these, I do not believe him to be a true Christian.   
Bill Kamps Added Nov 9, 2017 - 12:21pm
Narnian, thanks for the reasoned response.  In your list of ten, it is interesting that there is nothing there about  loving our  fellow man, or how to treat each other.  These are things I took away from my reading of the New Testament.
 
One of the things that troubles me about all religions is this notion that their way is the only true  and possible way.  No possibility that we all may be wrong.  That there may be a Creator but that our religions may all be getting some parts of this correct, while missing others.  Also interesting is that ALL religions preach love and kindness towards our fellow man, again, not on your list.
 
A few thousand years ago the Greeks thought  they had it correct.  They found the huge bones of their gods, so of course they thought they knew what was going on.  Turns out they found the bones of dinosaurs but with their limited knowledge they made a reasonable error.  Seems to me that our knowledge is far more limited than the Greeks, compared to a Creator, and that to say we have a book that is the true and only way, is similar to what the Greeks believed. 
 
I know Baptists that think they know exactly how the world will end, what people will be on what  bus to Heaven, which people will have to wait a bit longer, and so on.  It all strikes me as nonsense.  While I realize this is not fundamental to Christianity the arrogance of this kind of thing has turned me off. 
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 9, 2017 - 12:29pm
Bill
 
No, not every religion claims to be the exclusive holders of the keys to truth.
Bill Kamps Added Nov 9, 2017 - 12:31pm
PTP, true enough, I should not have said "all" since Im certainly not familiar with all.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Nov 9, 2017 - 12:36pm
Bill
 
I know Baptists that think they know exactly how the world will end, what people will be on what  bus to Heaven, which people will have to wait a bit longer, and so on. 
 
You shouldn't really discuss such items with people who live in a mental ward :-)
Bill Kamps Added Nov 9, 2017 - 12:41pm
Stone, but that's the thing, they were walking around free and clear, just like you and me LOL.   Look up The Rapture, and you will some pretty interesting stuff.
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 9, 2017 - 1:14pm
Narnian
I was demonstrating that the biblical account and current scientific understanding, both describe the same pattern. It was that pattern which the bible was trying to communicate, in a way that the readers could understand, because the details are so incredibly complex, creation is so mind bogglingly vast, and the scope stretches into elements of nature which we have no interaction with, that the fullness of it all is beyond the capacity of not just the human mind, but the human brain itself, to comprehend.
 
If the entire world devoted all of its resources for a thousand years, into the most intensive scientific investigation of the mechanics of nature imaginable, do you really think that our most advanced and sophisticated scientific models of the natural world, from the perspective of the complete understanding of God, would appear any less childish than stick figures in finger paints?
 
Science is struggling to understand How, because increasing that understanding provides us with new tools to better address the challenges of mortal life; the Bible is trying to express Why, to put scope and meaning into where those mortal lives fit into the larger scale beyond them. Those are vastly different questions, which do not relate or intersect with each other.
 
So, do you think that you might be able to make peace with science, even while rejecting the hubris of many scientists?
Bill Kamps Added Nov 9, 2017 - 1:28pm
Narnian, to pick up on what PTP has said.
 
Even in my Lutheran upbringing, which is a pretty conservative religion, our Pastor would not say that the Earth was created in the same kind of week that we think of today.  He was more willing to say that it was a metaphor for creation. Now he may have been wandering from approved doctrine, but his response at least made sense in that the book of Genesis was written so that people could understand it, even though the wheel had not yet been invented. 
 
I have a problem with people who say that the Bible must be interpreted literally given when it was written.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Nov 9, 2017 - 1:32pm
I have a problem with people who say that the Bible must be interpreted literally given when it was written
 
Me too. These people are no different to those Muslims who have the same opinion on their Islam.....
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 9, 2017 - 1:58pm
I think the Rapture is a is an absurd proposition to believe in.
Basically those Christians think just before all Hell breaks loose on earth, the 'good Christians" they think themselves to be, will ascend into Heaven like Elijah, Jesus and Mohammad.
 
As I understand the English language and the Word, Christ doesn't believe in any Rapture as it is taught as Doctrine by men.
 
Everyone has heard of the LORD's Prayer, but those 'Christians' believing in the Rapture don't understand the LORD's other prayer.
'I pray not that You should take them out of the world, (Rapture)  but that You should keep them from the evil.
John 17:15
 
If Jesus, the Son of Man and the Son of God, had to experience the pain, suffering and torture of the Crucifixion, are we sinners so special, we should be exempt from any hardship or disappointment. Jesus' followers were asleep while he prayed to God in his torments, to be spared Crucifixion.
 
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (false beliefs about God in Judaism, Christianity & Islam, written some 500 years before Islam, the 3rd arm from the Jewish religious record appeared)

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth (the 1%, Presidents, Prime Ministers, CEOs, and other Idols of the People) and of the whole world, (the rest of Humanity) to gather them to the Battle of that Great Day of God Almighty. (the war is already underway between Judaism, Christianity and Islam leading to the climax of that Great Day)
Behold, I come as a thief. (when you least expect it)
Blessed is he that watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Revelation 16:13-16

Armageddon was derived from Har Megiddo, located in Judea and Samaria of occupied Palestine 2000 years ago. Israel as a kingdom disappeared some 800 years before Jesus walked in that area during the occupation.

Har Megiddo/Armageddon still exists as a physical place in this material world, but is now under the control of temporal Israel re-created from the Bible after an absence of some 2800 years. After all those years, the occupation of Judea and Samaria in Palestine is still an unresolved, violent, open wound in the Middle East and this material world.
 
The imagined Heaven is a place of Peace and Joy for all who make it.
The Bible paints an alternate Reality for those going to Heaven in the Revelation of the Signs of the Times.
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he does judge and make war. [...]
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: [...]
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
 
So if I understand the words correctly, when a Christian gets to Heaven, they have to come back to earth as Christian Soldiers.
 
The sharp sword coming out of his mouth means the Word will be effective without using the world's weapons of War.
 
This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel, saying: 'Not by military force and not by physical strength, but by My spirit,' says the Lord of Hosts.
 
As to the Sonship of Jesus, that has to be kept in perspective.
'He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them, he gave power TO BECOME the Sons of God,

 
Furthermore, in having the Goal of Perfect Union with God through Christ, though we be imperfect, 'To him that overcomes, will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and AM set down with my Father in his throne.
He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

 
That is the Revelation o
Michael Cikraji Added Nov 9, 2017 - 1:59pm
The Bible was written by people, like you and me, not by God. People, of anytime in history, are supremely influenced by their surroundings and life experiences, and the role of God or gods in these experiences helps define their view.
 
It explains why God in the Old Testament is portrayed as angry, jealous, murderous, violent and malevolent. These poor people were wandering lost in the desert for decades, being attacked by everyone/everything and their neighbor, while they're often starving and severely dehydrated. Is it any wonder why God appeared so menacing? 
 
That being said, believing in the Bible literally, particularly the Old Testament, is absolute nonsense.
 
If Jesus came back tomorrow, and found all this out, and visited that uber retarded Creation Museum in Kentucky, he'd laugh so much he'd poop himself....
 
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 9, 2017 - 2:00pm
That is the Revelation of Jesus Christ Experience.
Michael Cikraji Added Nov 9, 2017 - 2:01pm
Exact to my point Ray, thank you.
Bill Kamps Added Nov 9, 2017 - 2:11pm
Ray, thanks for the insight.  I thought The Rapture was nonsense, without a detailed knowledge of Revelations.
Steve Bergeron Added Nov 9, 2017 - 2:28pm
Bill Kamps, with regard to the Church's discipline and administration, the Church can be as wrong as any institution.  There is no guarantee.  And, through the ages, the Church has made many errors in this area, most lately the child abuse scandal.  Not so with regard to doctrine, thank goodness.  And that's where the rubber meets the road.  Wise people would view the Church as they would a gym, and not judge the equipment and programs by those who don't use the gym or follow the programs.  This includes the instructors.  :)  The Church has the complete truths (equipment and programs) of Divine Revelation.  Each individual's challenge is to live by those truths...or not.  (Not a great analogy, but I'm sure you get the point, yes?)
 
With regard to Galileo, his problem was not that he proposed the heliocentric theory, as had Capernicus (who was, by the way, greatly honored for doing so).  His problem was that he published it as fact before he had the scientific proof to back it up.  The rule, back then, was you could not publish a scientific fact unless it had been scientifically proven.  With regard to being in "prison," he spent his time in confinement in luxury apartments of friends, etc.  We imprison people today for fraud and breaking government regulations, do we not?  And they usually don't get luxury accommodations, best I know...  :)
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 9, 2017 - 2:54pm
Steve
 
No Galileo's problem was that he wrote a play in which he presented the Pope's argument against the Heliocentric solar system, as being argued by the character of the Fool, and the Pope took it personally.
Bill Kamps Added Nov 9, 2017 - 3:02pm
We imprison people today for fraud and breaking government regulations, do we not?
 
Well today the Church isnt imprisoning anyone, thankfully.  However, I understand that there was a mixing of Church and State then, so fine he broke the law as then defined.
 
Thankfully the Church no longer makes the laws for secular society, for all people, believers and non-believers alike. 
 
While I see how you clearly distinguish between doctrine and discipline, I dont think the Church does the same when speaking to its members.  I think it often clouds the two, in order to get the members to abide by its rules.  People are told things are a sin, which are clearly discipline, and not doctrine.   We can chalk this up as administrative over reach, like any institution might do, but other institutions arent implying that breaking the rules is a sin against God.  Unfortunately many poor and uneducated members dont know the  difference between doctrine and discipline, and believe all of it is doctrine.
 
 
 
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 3:02pm
Bill Kamps,
Now that is embarrassing that I didn't list anything about loving our fellow man.  To be honest, I wasn't thinking of that as a "doctrine" per se, as many religions have a variation of the Golden Rule.  You are right, of course.  If a Christian doesn't believe in loving our fellow man, he is actually violating what Christ Himself taught. 
 
If one chooses to follow Christianity, he must take Christ at His word - "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.  No one comes to the Father except by Me." (John 14:6).  Different religions may have some things in common, but only one can be completely true.  To have faith in Christ is to believe there is no possibility He may be wrong. 
 
People object that Christianity is too narrow-minded.  Consider Christianity to be an airplane.  We wouldn't want the pilot to fly to the wrong destination, or to land in the side of a mountain.  We want a pilot who will take us to our destination and land on that narrow runway.  Jesus proved He was the Son of God.  Who better to trust? 
 
Regarding the "creation week" - What difference does it really make whether it was a literal 7-day week or several millennium?  It's the same miracle of creation, and it really can't be proven either way. 
 
Your point was about interpreting the Bible literally.  We definitely should interpret it literally.  R.C. Sproul uses the term "sensus literalis" - according to the sense of the scripture.  Historical narrative should be interpreted one way, poetry another way, prophetic imagery another way, etc.  You may be right to interpret the Creation account as more symbolic than "literal" history.  Then again, maybe not.  Does it matter?
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 3:16pm
Pagan Tea Partier,
What would make you think I'm "at war" with Science?  I've always been at peace with Science.  I tend to agree with your post.  There is so much to learn.  Genesis is a very simple account of an event so complex, it's unlikely that we will ever comprehend it fully.  We will learn more insight, I'm sure, through science.
Bill Kamps Added Nov 9, 2017 - 3:20pm
Different religions may have some things in common, but only one can be completely true. 
 
Perhaps none of them are completely true.  Perhaps all of them are partly true. 
 
To have faith in Christ is to believe there is no possibility He may be wrong.

 
Faith is unarguable.
 
 
Since a number of the major religions all believe that they are the only truth, some or all of them are mistaken.  Other than faith, I see no reason to conclude that Christianity has a monopoly on the truth. 
 
That doesnt mean that we shouldnt still love our fellow man :)
 
We definitely should interpret it literally.  R.C. Sproul uses the term "sensus literalis" - according to the sense of the scripture..... What does it matter?

 
Interesting and convenient definition of literal.  Webster defines literal as "without allegory or metaphor".  RC Sproul I see does not. I  think it matters because if we allow for allegory and metaphor the scripture makes more sense and therefore is more accessible to a greater number of people.
 
 
 
 
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 3:30pm
Ray,
I agree that the Rapture is a gross misinterpretation of Scripture.  The passage from John that you quoted is an excellent argument against it.  In addition to that passage, I reject the Rapture and the whole modern "Left Behind" scenario based on my interpretation of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21).  Jesus prophesied the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem when He was speaking with the Disciples.  This came to pass under the Roman General Titus in AD 70. 
Jesus did not change the subject, but went on to describe other signs of "The End".  While many Christians believe He was talking about the time just before Jesus comes, I believe He was describing the end of the Old Covenant system.  The Jews were scattered with the destruction of Jerusalem. 
 
I do believe Christ is coming again, but no Rapture.  I can appreciate how we can have an intelligent conversation even though we have different views.
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 3:42pm
Hi Bill,
True, faith is unarguable.  I think that is good - but our faith is only as good as the foundation it is built upon. 
I can't possibly disagree about the point that we should love our fellow man.  James 1:27 says "Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unstained from the world."  That lines up with the Golden Rule, and I believe many religions have something similar. 
 
Sproul's point was not to redefine "literal", but to show us how to properly interpret scripture.  When God led Israel to a land of milk and honey, did everyone get stuck in a gooey mess?  Do trees really clap their hands as Isaiah 55:12 says?  Not everything in the Bible is to be taken in a wooden literal sense.  In that sense, I think we agree.  When we understand Biblical figures of speech, it's much easier for more people to understand.
opher goodwin Added Nov 9, 2017 - 3:42pm
Michael - If Jesus came back tomorrow, and found all this out, and visited that uber retarded Creation Museum in Kentucky, he'd laugh so much he'd poop himself....
I couldn't have put it better.
opher goodwin Added Nov 9, 2017 - 3:44pm
Narnian - I do believe Christ is coming again, They've been saying that for 2000 years now.
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 4:07pm
LOL - They certainly have.  I won't try to guess when He will return.  Too many "prophecy pundits" out there now.  Whether He comes back tomorrow or never, it really doesn't change how we should live, right?  Micah 6:8 tells us that what the Lord requires of us is to "act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly" with our God.  That is all any of us can do.
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 9, 2017 - 4:11pm
Bill
 
It is worth noting that I am not actually arguing against a literalist interpretation of the Bible. It is not my book, and thus it is not my place to assert the proper way for it to be understood.
 
I am arguing in favor of humility.
 
A person can interpret the Genesis account literally, and at the same time recognize that it is a pale shadow of an oversimplification, describing something which has always been beyond our comprehension to begin with.
Bill Kamps Added Nov 9, 2017 - 4:22pm
Narnian, my point is that when someone says we should take the Bible as literal most people assume Webster's definition. Using a different definition defeats the purpose of the word literal.  According to Sproul, the  answer to literal interpretation, if not "no", should at best be "not exactly".  I understand it is not a math book, but a lot of the poor and uneducated do not see these distinctions, so words like literal do matter.
 
Using Webster's definition turns people off because it is pretty obvious that parts of it are not literal, and other parts are maybe literal and maybe not.   If you are talking to children and trying to teach them Christianity, and tell them the Bible must be taken literally, they are not going to accept it as easily as if one uses Sproul's suggestion for how we should interpret it.  As I child when I was told to interpret it literally I thought the person who said it was crazy, and made me less likely to accept everything on faith.
 
While I dont consider myself an expert on Christianity I have spent a lot of time in the church, and this is the first time I have heard of Sproul's definition of the word literal, so I presume I am not alone there.  I would generally agree with how he suggests we interpret the Bible, just not calling it literal.
 
Unfortunately Christianity is not very consistent on matters that affect a lot of people in their day to day lives.  Some forms of the religion allow birth control, others not; some accept homosexuals, others not; some allow divorce, others not.  So while it matters very little whether creation took seven days or seven thousand years, these other things do matter and do affect the very real lives of people today.  This is especially true when these differences arent just painted as preferences like whether you go to church every Sunday, but are in fact described as sins against God if you violate that particular branch of Christianity's rules.  How can something be a sin against God in one branch if Christianity, and ok in another branch?
 
More than a few people I know have been turned off of Christianity by the apparently arbitrary nature of some of these rules, and their consequences.  It is impossible for me to believe the Christ would not accept homosexuals into his company without repentance for those acts, regardless of what the Old Testament has to say about the matter.  It is also impossible for me to believe that he would excommunicate people who got a divorce.  To me his teachings were about inclusion not exclusion. 
 
Then again, I dont have the faith that Christianity is the one true religion.
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 9, 2017 - 4:31pm
Narnian
 
This discussion is about an article criticizing Evolution for its non conformance with scripture.
 
Its one thing to argue against those who say that this proves that there is no God, because all life came about as a result of natural processes and random chance. That case can't hold its own weight, because if there is a God he obviously designed those natural processes and there really is no such thing as random chance to begin with.
 
But it is quite another thing to argue against the evidence for an incomplete understanding of the mechanics of nature, because it does not precisely conform to a simplified account of divine creation.
Bill Kamps Added Nov 9, 2017 - 4:38pm
Pagan, humility is always  a good thing when talking about religion and the  creation of the universe.  In my mind, its not possible that any of the religions got it correct, because we are talking about something that man has to understand, which we cant possibly.
 
Whether we are talking about creation, an after life, our souls, or what have you, these are impossible things for man today to understand, much less the men who wrote the Bible.  The Old Testament was largely written before the invention of the wheel, so c'mon.
 
Certainly we can understand the general jist of religion, and how  we should love one another.  Interesting that the Narnian left that out of his ten doctrines on Christianity.  This is not to throw stones at him, but while I dont believe all the tenants of Christianity completely on faith, I do believe the New Testament message of inclusion, and loving one another.  If we take nothing else away from the Bible, to me that should be it. 
 
I dont know if there is an after life, I rather doubt there is a Hell and Heaven as Christianity usually describes it.  However, that doesnt  mean I shouldnt try to lead a life as a decent human being, and treat the people around me with love and respect.   That is the best I can do.   While many may disagree, I think to what degree I have faith will matter very little after I am gone from this Earth. 
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 4:40pm
Bill, I think you make a good point.  Sproul's use of "literal" is fine for "mature" Christians, but not for everyone.  Your comparison to teaching children is a good illustration. 
Maybe it's best to take each passage as we encounter it to expound upon.  That way, we are less likely to overwhelm or confuse the reader.  What do you think? 
 
Your point regarding the inconsistency of Christianity is valid, as your examples show.  Oddly enough, many people with opposing views will use Scripture to back up their view.  Religious rules have kept a lot of people out of the church and away from Christ.  I agree with you in the example of the homosexual who repents.  Christ receives all who are truly repentant.
Steve Bergeron Added Nov 9, 2017 - 4:43pm
There is a proper methodology that should be used to correctly interpret the Bible, believe it or not. 
 
The Bible should not be viewed as "a" book, but rather as a library, with different genres.  Some books of the Bible are poetic, some historic, some allegorical (like Genesis).  Yet, all contain the truth within them.  Not necessarily the literal truth, although some do.  For example, Genesis is allegorical.  Like Aesop's fable, the actual details may not be true, but the principle underlying the stories are true.   Jesus taught in parables.  The details in the parables need not have been true, but the underlying principles were.  
 
Here are the three principles one should use in interpreting the Bible:
1.  Read the Bible as a whole context, rather than in snippets out of context.  Surely, anyone can make any book mean what they want, if they begin with the answer they want, and twist the writing to fit  their desire.  And we've seen a lot of that! That's why there are tens of thousands of Protestant denominations, rather than one. So, consideration must be given to the literary style of each book, the language and the way the language was used at the time it was written, and the cultural norms of the time in which it was written.  The goal is to understand what the author intended it to mean, given all that.
 
2.  Read the Bible in light of Holy Tradition, i.e., the Oral Tradition passed on from Jesus to the Apostles to their successors, the bishops, for 2000 years now.  Oral Tradition preceded the New Testament.  The Apostles didn't sit down and begin writing the day after Christ ascended to heaven.  :)  Properly understood, there can never be anything in Oral Tradition that contradicts a correct understanding of the Bible, because Oral Tradition is where the New Testament came from.  As the Apostles began to die off, they realized that it might be useful to write down the basics that Christ had taught them.  Some of what was orally taught was written down.  (But not all.  See John 21:25.)
 
3.  Read the Bible in light of the living Magisterium of the Church, established by Christ.  That's the Pope, successor of Peter, and the bishops in union with him, successors of the Apostles.  Everyone who loves sports understands that there must be a referee or umpire to keep the game within the rules.   The referee isn't there to control every movement in the game, but to assure that the rules of the game are being followed.  The same is true with the Magisterium of the Church.  It is there, not to dictate every thought, but to prevent error.  As one wise man said, "I don't need the Church to tell me when I'm right.  I need the Church to tell me when I'm wrong." 
 
 
Steve Bergeron Added Nov 9, 2017 - 4:44pm
P.S. - Keep in mind that all translations of the Bible have errors within them, simply due to the fact that the ancient languages don't always translate well into the vernacular languages (like English).
Steve Bergeron Added Nov 9, 2017 - 4:46pm
Narnian, no, I'm not a licensed theologian.  I am a Catholic apologist.  
Bill Kamps Added Nov 9, 2017 - 4:49pm
Pagan, again there are various descriptions among Christians about the  creation.  There are those who  would tell us that all the forms of life that ever existed were present on the seventh day of creation.  This of course flies in the face of science.  A more liberal Christian interpretation might say that God put things in place, and other forms of life evolved from those present at creation.  That is not inconsistent with science.
 
Some Christian leaders believe that the Earth is less than 100K years old, while others accept numbers that science has calculated of a few billion  years old. 
 
A lot depends on who you ask, for whether Christianity is consistent with the scientific explanation.  Again, we go back to that word literal.  Some people believe you can count the days in the Bible, and total up the age of the Earth, but that would  be using Webster's definition of literal, not Narnian's.
 
While Narnian says  these things dont matter, they may not to him.  However, for those trying to approach Christianity, people are often turned away by the inconsistencies within the various factions of the  religion, and with science. 
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 4:56pm
Steve,
My compliments to you, sir.  You are certainly very skilled in apologetics.  Even though you are Catholic and I am Protestant, I follow pretty much the same guidelines that you describe to study Scripture.  Trying to understand what the author meant, and how the original audience understood the passage are definitely key.  I love the quote at end - truly we do need the Church to tell us when we are wrong.
Bill Kamps Added Nov 9, 2017 - 5:01pm
Steve, interesting and amusing, and it is shame that your explanation isnt more widely espoused among Christian leaders.  Even though you are Catholic, I kind of like you (sarcasm and humor intended ).
 
I agree with you in the example of the homosexual who repents. 
 
Narnian, the question is repentant of what? if you mean repentant for being a homosexual then we have to disagree, since I believe people are born homosexuals, and therefore dont need to repent about that, other things like any one else of course.   Yes I know the Old Testament says differently, but then the Old Testament says we should kill people who work on the Sabbath, and kill people who aren't Christians.  We have evolved from the Old Testament, we have the wheel!
 
Narnian Added Nov 9, 2017 - 5:12pm
FYI - Guys, I just learned that my wife was admitted to ER.  I have to run, and probably will be gone until Monday.
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 9, 2017 - 5:55pm
Narnian
 
I hope that it isn't too serious and that she recovers well.
 
Best wishes to you and your family.
Steve Bergeron Added Nov 9, 2017 - 6:04pm
Narnian, my prayers go with you and for your wife!  
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 9, 2017 - 6:15pm
Bill
 
Those internal conflicts, however, are not my business. I hate it when people try to tell me what Neopagans "Really" believe, and while I'll point out when a Christian's positions do not seem to conform to their scriptures, I'm not going to presume to lecture them about "True" meaning of their religion.
 
They can figure that out for themselves, and if outsiders find the internal conflicts off putting, that is not my problem.
 
But the humility that I was referring to isn't limited to religion. Scientists should realize that 200 years from now, their own best understanding will be sneered at, just as much as they laugh at the superficial understanding of Classical Newtonian Physics. Just what fundamental understanding of today will turn out to be the Luminefrious Ether of our age?
Steve Bergeron Added Nov 9, 2017 - 6:17pm
I think that homosexuality is a grave disorder, much like pedophilia, and other similar disorders.  It's not what someone is.  It's what someone chooses to do.  I can understand the confusion, however, because the brain has been discovered to be very "elastic."  It can change, based on our actions and circumstances.  It seems the ancients may have had a clue about this, when we reflect on the phrase, "As we pray, so shall we believe, so shall we live."  If we claim to believe something (or Someone, like God), and act contrary to those beliefs, we create tremendous strain in our psyche.  One of three things must happen over time, I believe. 
1) We change our beliefs to fall in line with our actions.  We see some of the most vociferous anti-Christians who were once good Christians but decided to live a life of sin.  They come up with all sorts of rationalizations to justify their sin.  Very common.  
2) We change our actions to fall in line with our beliefs.  This is called repentance.
3) We become insane.  Nietzsche killed himself, I believe, because he could not reconcile his beliefs and his actions. (My opinion, other than the fact that he did, indeed, kill himself.)  It drove him insane.
The big mistake those with same-sex attraction make is labeling themselves as if they have no choice in the matter.  Or worse, blaming God for turning out that way.  I believe a lot of the problem stems from societies general acceptance of artificial birth control.  Before 1930, all major Christian groups taught that contraception was disordered (evil).  Then, at the Anglican Lambeth Conference that year, the Anglicans said, basically, "Well, maybe not in all cases."  That put a crack in the dam and now pretty much all Protestant denominations believe it's okay.  What that did, though, was change the meaning of sex from being primarily about creation of another person who will live forever, to "my pleasure."  If the latter becomes accepted, then all bets are off for anything and any reason. And destruction will follow not long thereafter.  The building block of society is the family.  Take the family out, and you take out society.
Barath Nagarajan Added Nov 9, 2017 - 6:26pm
    Scientists did not create living beings; the sun, the moon or the stars. Scientists didn't create themselves, nor did their parents create themselves. Neither did the Universe or life create itself.
    The Lord created the World for living beings, they should be grateful to their Creator.
opher goodwin Added Nov 9, 2017 - 6:50pm
No Barath- scientists didn't create themselves or the universe but neither did some supernatural being created out of human imagination. To replace one unknown with an even greater unknown is illogical. Faith is based on nothing.
The universe did create itself. Hard to get your head round but far more feasible than any alternative.
Barath Nagarajan Added Nov 9, 2017 - 7:09pm
Opher:
You say,
     The universe did create itself.
 
From nothing? How did it do that?Where did it get the material for creation?
   Not possible.
Barath Nagarajan Added Nov 9, 2017 - 7:36pm
.   7.7  And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons’ wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
     There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
.   So all living beings procreated through sex with their relatives. That's disgusting.
Barath Nagarajan Added Nov 9, 2017 - 7:44pm
Genesis 3.20
    And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
.   So Adam and Eve procreated through sex. Then everyone in the bible procreated through sex with their relatives.
Barath Nagarajan Added Nov 9, 2017 - 7:56pm
Plus most Jews are usually white, so who created Black people, Chinese people, Arabs etc.?Adam and Eve are usually pictured as being white and they procreated through sex.
 Adam and Eve had two boys, one killed the other killing of 25% of the World's population(metaphorically?), then they had Seth, so how did they procreate?
 
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 9, 2017 - 8:13pm
Opher
 
The universe created itself... seriously?
 
You might not believe in God, but that isn't even science.
Bill Kamps Added Nov 9, 2017 - 9:56pm
Well Steve I guess I respectively disagree.  Tell me Steve, with regards to homosexuality are we talking about doctrine or discipline?  You have already acknowledge many errors in discipline by the Church over the centuries.
 
Pedophilia is an adult preying on a child, and there is no equivocation that this is a crime, not  just  sin.  Of course when a priest preys on a child it take on even greater darkness, since the child has a trust in a priest.  Despite this, the church has protected the pedophile priests. Instead of turning these priest over to authorities for imprisonment it transfers them to unsuspecting parishes, where they can prey on new populations.  By many accounts this practice has diminished but not completely stopped.  Yes of course this is discipline not doctrine, and and these are just mistakes made as any institution can make mistakes.
 
Homosexuality is sex between two consenting adults. To equate homosexuality with pedophilia shows no concept for the difference between a crime with a child as a victim, and enjoyment between two consenting adults.   This is the kind of lack of knowledge I've come to expect from the Church.
 
While you see sin in this combination, I dont.  Im not going to engage in whether homosexuality is a result of nature vs nurture, there are studies on both sides of course.  However, to me what happens between two consenting adults is fine by me.  If those adults happen to love each other so much the better.  It is difficult enough to find love in this world, and to me it doesnt matter how it happens.
 
To me it is not up to religion to decide that sex should be just for procreation and not for enjoyment.  The fact that the Catholic Church does not allow contraception has doomed many poor families to even worse impoverishment because they have more children than they can afford.  In general people in wealthier families ignore the Church's ban on contraception, while those who are poorer with less education still follow the Church's ban.
 
These and other medieval beliefs have caused me to turn my back on Christianity because it does not serve people as they live.  Christianity is making rules for how people should live based on outdated styles of living.  Back in the times of the Old Testament men owned their women, and had multiple wives.  Christianity no longer encourages multiple wives, and ownership of women,  yet it still  wants to control the sex lives of the members.  Both practices are outdated. 
 
People are not here to serve the religions, quite the opposite.  You say that discipline has changed over the years.    I agree.  Things like homosexuality, birth control,  divorce, and women's rights are not treated the same within all sects of the Christian Church.  Clearly this is not doctrine but merely old fashioned ideas that are putting undue burdens on people because the Church thinks it can tell people how to live their lives.
 
 
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 9, 2017 - 11:25pm



In the Bible Timeline, in the Beginning, before the thoughts of Male and Female came into the mind of God the Spirit, or any mention of gender or Flesh, it is 1st mentioned in Genesis 1:26-27, "And God (singular) said, Let US (plural) make MAN (singular) in OUR (plural) image, after OUR (plural) likeness: and let THEM (plural) have dominion [...] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them [...] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
That's the end of the 1st chapter of Genesis. The Book says God rested from all his work.
 
In Chapter 2 there is still no WOMAN. and the MAN is alone. God told him it's ALL GOOD. You can have it all, except don't touch the Tree of the Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL. It's all good. You don't want to know evil. People don't think much beyond the 'Apple Tree' from that Bible Genesis story. We've all had a taste from that Tree since then!
 
Even though God said in chapter 1 it is 'very good,' the LORD God appears for the 1st Time in chapter 2 saying, 'And the LORD God said, It is not good that the MAN should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.'

That's as True Today as it ever was since that 6000 year old Genesis record. God had to go back to work on Monday?
 
And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a WOMAN, and brought her unto the man.
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Genesis 2:21-23


And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
 
It is possible God left a little bit of each in the other. Medical Science essentially confirms that Creation story TODAY.
 
WOMEN have the singular X Chromosome. MAN has both the X and Y Chromosomes. When the X of the FEMALE unites with the X IN THE MALE, a FEMALE is born. When the X of the Female unites with the Y in the Male, a male is born.


opher goodwin Added Nov 10, 2017 - 7:18am
Pagan - I think it is science. At the moment of the Big Bang the universe came into being complete with all energy, matter, space and time. That seems like science to me. 13.7 Billion years ago.
Now how that came about, what was before it and such is not understood.
Stephen Hawkin talks about the possibility of our universe being the result of two other universes touching. An interesting speculation.
It is precisely because human beings have an immense problem understanding how something like this could possibly occur that they created god in order to explain it.
Science - the universe came out of nothing.
Religion - God created the universe out of nothing.
No contest for me. The first is a far simpler more logical explanation.
If you go for religion you are there left with a series of imponderables of even greater magnitude - what is god? Where was he before the universe was created? How did something so immensely powerful as god come into being in the first place? Who created God? God would have to be more complex and powerful than the universe. How could that come level of sophistication come first?
I could go on.
You are amazed at the idea that the universe came from nothing. I am amazed that anyone can believe in such a simplistic human concept as god.
opher goodwin Added Nov 10, 2017 - 7:21am
Ray - you really believe the X and Y chromosome confirms the genesis story?
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 10, 2017 - 8:23am
Opher, Atheists such as yourself accept 'The Big Bang Theory" as an article of Faith, like any religion not requiring proof.
 
For there to be a big bang, there had to be some kind of power or energy to cause the Bang. It could not happen in a vacuum.
 
The 2nd & 3rd lines in Genesis, the Beginning, suggest a big bang.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Bang! There was Light!
 
The X & Y chromosomes are scientific fact the early writers of the Bible would not know.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 10, 2017 - 9:31am
With over 100 + email or Face Book notices everyday Day to read this, or that, for obvious reasons, I would get a kick out of discovering this more than anyone reading this and participating in this discussion.
 
The Russiagate farce, or how the Russians corrupted our pristine democracy
 
Of particular interest to me, was the image of Jesus arm wrestling with Satan. Russia is accused of posting it on line to help Trump win. The Russians are alleged to have used the Alias "Army of Jesus"
 
Army of Jesus makes the story relevant to this ongoing discussion of the Bible Narnian was able to make happen with the Title.
 
I would think some of Trump's ecstatic Evangelical supporters with the computer expertise, were more likely to have posted it and masking their trail, portraying Hillary as Satan and Trump as Jesus
 
I posted this article to my Blog 18 months before Trump announced his pursuit of the Presidency with the same Jesus arm wrestling with Satan picture
 
I AM THAT I AM

TODAY is my Birthday! Thirty-nine years have gone by since that Unexpected, Wonder Filled Day when I was target="_blank" rel="noopener">‘Born Again” by the Spirit of God February 1, 1975. I was 29 going on 30, and never experienced anything like it before.
 
That Day, I came alive to God and/or God came alive in me.
 
Before that unexpected Day I was like most people, never thinking about God. There was no time or room for God in Life, my thoughts, my calculations and questioning of Life and the systems of THIS world. Why it is the way it is?
Steve Bergeron Added Nov 10, 2017 - 10:46am
Hey, Bill Kamps!
 
    Good morning.   I'm talking about neither doctrine nor discipline.  I'm talking more about the Natural Law.  Natural Law is like the owner's manual in the glove box of your automobile, put there by the manufacturer to explain how your automobile was designed to operate.  For example, it says that you should use unleaded gasoline in the fuel tank.  Suppose one day, you decided that after long contemplation and with all sincerity, you decided that it would be just as efficient and a lot more cost effective to fill your fuel tank with water the next time you needed to tank up.  So, you pulled the garden hose over and tanked up.  What would be the result of that decision, with regard to your automobile?  It would result in you becoming a pedestrian.  Why?  Because your automobile was not designed by its manufacturer to operate on water.  It was designed to operate on unleaded gasoline.  But, you respond, "Wait!  It's MY car!  Who are they to tell me what to do with MY car?!"  
 
    The primary purpose of sex is for procreation, not "my pleasure."  The secondary purpose of sex is within marriage to strengthen the bond between husband and wife.  Remove the procreative element, and you have a disordered act, which always leads to problems.  The act becomes self-centered, rather than centered on your spouse.
 
    The problem with most people in our modern society is that they live by the primacy of their autonomous will, rather than within the broader context of truth of things.  That's always a formula for problems, usually disasters.  We see our society digressing in many ways.  Murder rates are way up, as are suicides.   Breakup of families, etc.  We're getting worse, not better, as a society.  We're not improving, except perhaps technologically.  
 
     The moral demise of a nation always precedes its ultimate demise.  If we, as a nation and a society, do not fix this, we are doomed.   History repeats itself because man is too stupid to learn from the mistake of others.  He gets high and mighty in his mind and thinks he is above God and God's Natural Law.  I'm glad I'm as old as I am.  I probably won't be around to witness the final destruction of our country and culture.
 
 
     
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 10, 2017 - 12:12pm
Opher
 
Except you've changed your assertion to, "came from nothing," from having said, "created itself."
 
I have no doubt that there were natural processes, which resulted in all of the matter and energy of the universe generating seemingly from nothing, and I don't think that disproves the existence of God.
 
What I scoffed at, was your proclamation that an effect produced its own cause.
opher goodwin Added Nov 10, 2017 - 1:36pm
Pagan - I think that is mere semantics. If something comes from nothing it is perfectly proper to say that it created itself. No other agent was involved.
 
opher goodwin Added Nov 10, 2017 - 1:48pm
Ray - I do accept the Big Bang as the logical event. There is much evidence for it and if you follow the expansion back you arrive at that moment.
It is pretty much the same as waiting for a train. When that train arrives it is pretty logical to work out that it must have come from the station before.
You are stuck on the problem of what caused the Big Bang. Aren't we all?
My answer is that we can say with some degree of certainty (never completely certain) that the Big Bang happened. Why it happened and what was there before is not possible to say. It is a mystery that could even possibly be beyond the grasp of humans.
Your answer is that God did it. As I said before - that answers nothing. It merely poses even greater questions. It is a very convenient human explanation for the unknown. Where was god in the midst of that nothing before he invented the universe? Or was there always something? Who invented God? Where did he come from? Was he spontaneously formed? Was he always there? How could something so powerful and complex as God be spontaneously formed?
And you think the Big Bang is illogical!
There are huge questions here that nobody has the answers to .... yet. But I bet science has a better chance of finding those answers than religion. Religion is merely a medieval human answer to an unfathomable. Religion's answer isn't an answer at all. To invent something to explain something merely takes the mystery one more step away and an even bigger mystery.
I'll stick with science thanks. It makes much more sense.
opher goodwin Added Nov 10, 2017 - 1:52pm
Ray - I am a biologist. I know all about X and Y chromosomes but I have never seen any mention of them or any other of the technological delights in our modern world in the bible. It is a product of its culture and time. But you can read what you like into it.
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 10, 2017 - 2:40pm
Opher
 
Except it has not actually been demonstrated that the universe came from in fact Nothing.
 
It can only be demonstrated that whatever that currently unidentified something was, it divided itself so perfectly evenly, that it left no residual trace of itself which needs to be factored into our equations.
 
The lack of an explanation for this absolute perfect balance, in the formation of a universe in which that level of total perfection cannot be observed ANYWHERE, is known as "The Flatness Problem."
 
Even in your attempt to justify your claim, you presented Hawkings' speculation of two other universes colliding. That may an explanation of how the "something" may have been something other than Divine Intervention, but the collision of other universes is NOT "Nothing."
 
You would certainly jump all over a Biblical Creationist, who in the process of defending or challenging a position, made a claim which was beyond what their scriptural source material asserted. So its not just "semantics" to point out that your assertion, was beyond what science has actually determined.
 
Face it, while running your mouth, you started talking out of your rear.
john guzlowski Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:20pm
Narian, if Jesus is the only way to salvation, what happens to the 66% of the people in the world who have different religions?
 
Are they damned because they grew up in a culture or country where Christianity was not accepted?
 
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 10, 2017 - 6:12pm
opher, you missed this in my comment, "The X & Y chromosomes are scientific fact the early writers of the Bible would not know.  

For being such a smart person, I see no reason why you would post this except for deflection, "I am a biologist. I know all about X and Y chromosomes but I have never seen any mention of them or any other of the technological delights in our modern world in the bible. Rather disingenuous for you to write.
 
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
 
But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Daniel
 
 
For the LORD has poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers has he covered.
 
And the vision of all is become to you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray you: and he says, I cannot; for it is sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray you: and he says, I am not learned.
Isaiah
 
Steve Bergeron Added Nov 10, 2017 - 6:15pm
John Guzlowski, 
    Everyone who has been saved, is being saved, or will be saved, will be saved by Jesus Christ.
     However, that does not imply that all those who are saved will know Jesus Christ.  Jesus (God) is infinitely merciful and infinitely just.  It would be unjust to condemn anyone to hell because, by no fault of their own, they did not know Jesus Christ.  Those people will be judged according to how they lived in relation to the truth they did know.  If they lived a righteous life, as best as they knew, then they certainly have a shot at heaven, and if they make it, it will be because of Jesus Christ's death on the cross.  
     We have to be careful not to judge the souls and culpability of any individuals because 1) that's not our call and 2) we have no way to know the hearts of anyone else.  We are not God.  :)
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 10, 2017 - 6:48pm
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
 
But what do you think ? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
He answered and said, I will not: but afterword he repented, and went.
And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and did not go.
Which of the two did the will of his father? They say to him, The first. Jesus said to them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
 
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
 
Then shall the King say to them on his right hand, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was hungry, and you gave me meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
 
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see YOU hungry, and fed YOU? or thirsty, and gave YOU drink?
When did we see YOU a stranger, and took YOU in? or naked, and clothed YOU?
Or when did we see YOU sick, or in prison, and came to YOU?
 
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of these my brethren, you have done it to ME.
 
NOTE: There is no requirement to be a Jew, Christian, Muslim or any other religion, even Atheist in the message. The Spirit of Christ is travelling Incognito all over this world.
opher goodwin Added Nov 10, 2017 - 7:11pm
Ray - Disingenuous? You were claiming that the X and Y chromosomes had some pertinence to what was written in the bible. I think not.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 10, 2017 - 8:28pm
Yes, Opher, I do see the modern Scientific FACT of X & Y chromosomes as confirming the Genesis story of the Woman originating in the Man. The writer of Genesis was not aware of X & Y chromosomes.
 
And out of Woman comes Male and Female and an occasional hermaphrodite.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Nov 12, 2017 - 5:47pm
 
"Many early discoveries were made by devout Christians who studied nature, the stars, etc.  Genesis explains our origins and is the beginning of God's plan for mankind.  He did make man with free will.  We are not His pets, nor are we automations. 
While we disagree, you have been very civil and thoughtful."
 
How can many early discoveries were made when it was an anathema to make discoveries that when against church's belief about the world?
 
So here is a devout Swami of 30 years and when Gods comes he will be told he will be dammed to an everlasting oven because in the wilderness, where he lived all his life, a bible or radio broadcast never reached.  OK thats a stretch! What about those people living in Peruvian rain forest who had no contact with the outside world? God will burn them in everlasting flames because they did not know about Him?
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 12, 2017 - 7:27pm
Dr. Green. did you read this in my comment upstream?
 
NOTE: There is no requirement to be a Jew, Christian, Muslim or any other religion, even Atheist in the message. The Spirit of Christ is travelling Incognito all over this world.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Nov 12, 2017 - 7:48pm
@ Ray. "There is no requirement to be a Jew, Christian, Muslim or any other religion, even Atheist in the message. The Spirit of Christ is travelling Incognito all over this world."
 
is this what religious leaders preach to million of members across the globe?
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 12, 2017 - 9:51pm
No, but that's how I see it. The Establishment Jewish religion wanted Christ dead.
Narnian Added Nov 13, 2017 - 12:45pm
FYI - After a very long weekend in the hospital, my wife was finally released yesterday afternoon.  Long story short, the had to give her a pacemaker.  She is restricted from lifting her left arm for a couple of weeks - which is especially awkward for her.  She's a "lefty". 
Thanks for your prayers and concerns - especially from Pagan Tea Partier and Steve Bergeron.  I appreciate it.
Narnian Added Nov 13, 2017 - 1:04pm
John Guzlowski,
A fair question, to be sure.  While Steve Bergeron has given a very good reply, I wanted to add a couple of my own thoughts from a Protestant perspective.  This may come across as "preachy", but the Scriptures are key to my point. 
In Romans 10:14, St. Paul asks "How shall the believe in Him whom they have not heard?"  As Steve pointed out, it would be unjust to condemn someone to Hell if, through no fault of their own, they did not know Christ.  While God doesn't expect us to respond to what they've never heard, we are accountable for what we have heard.  Romans 5:13 tells us that "Sin is not taken into account when there is no law".  So, what are they accountable to respond to? 
Romans 1:20 shows us that God's eternal power and divine nature have been clear to everyone from the complexity of nature.  Even those who haven't heard of Jesus are accountable for knowing that God does exist.  Those who don't hear about Jesus still need to humble themselves before God.  They cannot earn God's favor by following religious rituals or being a "good person".  You may be good compared to some people, but nobody is good compared to Christ. 
As Steve so wisely put it, we have no way to judge men's hearts.  While I share the Gospel, I leave "those who have not heard" in God's hands.  He is just and fair.
PaganTeaPartier Added Nov 13, 2017 - 1:11pm
Welcome back Narnian.
 
Of all of the reasons that someone could need to suddenly go to the ER, there are a lot worse outcomes than needing a pacemaker.
 
I hope that she continues to recover well and that you two have many more happy years with each other.
Narnian Added Nov 13, 2017 - 1:19pm
Thank you, Pagan.  That means a lot to me.  Take care.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Nov 13, 2017 - 1:42pm
Welcome back Narnian. Glad to know your wife is on the road to recovery. My 83 year old sister had heart failure recently. In the US private health care system older people have to pay more. With CanaDa's Universal Health Care system, she got 1st class care with no monthly Insurance premiums or deductible.
 
"You may be good compared to some people, but nobody is good compared to Christ."
 
And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
And he said to him, Why call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 19:16-17; Mark 10:17-18; Luke 18:18-19
Narnian Added Nov 13, 2017 - 2:08pm
Thanks, Ray.  I appreciate that.  I am glad that I had already met my total out-of-pocket, or that could have been quite expensive. 
That passage is often used to show that Jesus wasn't God in the flesh, and that we "earn" our Heavenly reward.  We know that Jesus was, in fact, without sin (see 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, 7:26).  Jesus was making the rich young ruler see his own lack of goodness.  In Mark 10:21-22, Jesus tells him "You lack one thing.  Sell all you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven.  Then come, follow Me."  The man went away grieving, because he was rich. 
 
I think we would agree that Jesus is not commanding everyone to sell everything they own in order to follow Him.  He is not against wealth, but He doesn't want wealth (or anything else) to become an idol.  Because this man's riches were of more value to him than God, he was not "good" in God's eyes.  Goodness doesn't flow from our deeds, but from God Himself.  To follow Christ, we must place Him above all else.
Narnian Added Nov 13, 2017 - 2:10pm
Ray,
I meant to tell you that I am very glad your sister got the care she needed.  I hope she continues to do well.
Narnian Added Nov 13, 2017 - 3:23pm
Dr. Green,
My apologies for not getting back with you earlier.  I am catching up on replies to my posts. 
One of early my favorite examples of scientists who were devout Christians is Copernicus.  Even in the 16th century, he was never under threat of religious persecution for his views that the planets revolve around the sun.  Catholic Bishop Guise, Cardinal Schonberg, and Protestant Professor Rheticus each encouraged him to publish his views. 
Likewise, Kepler never suffered persecution for his views of a sun-centered solar system. 
Gregor Mendel was the first to lay the mathematical foundations of genetics, which he began in 1856 (which preceded "Origin of Species" by three years). 
 
Regarding your other point, St. Paul himself asked a similar question in Romans 10:14 - "How can they believe in someone they've never heard of?" (my paraphrase).  While that motivates missionaries, how does that help our Swami or the Peruvian rain forest natives? 
 
I think we would agree that, if the God of the Bible does exist, He is fair and just.  He wouldn't condemn someone for something beyond their control.  I believe those who have never heard the Gospel will be judged in a different way.  Scripture doesn't specifically address this issue, so I cannot make an absolute statement concerning it.  I will have to trust that God does have a fair and just solution, because He is righteous.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Nov 13, 2017 - 4:26pm
@Narnian. Hope the best for your wife. You did crack me up with this; "Thank you, Pagan."  That means a lot to me.  Take care."  Seems contrary by distinction.  Your response is not dogmatic but enlightening. I try not to belittle or berate individuals who take the time to share their knowledge. Rather, I seek to pull out more information from them. 
 
Still, these persecuted folks would tell a different story "The Church has never been on the cutting edge of science -- on the contrary, it has been the one persecuting scientists. The list of those who earned the wrath of the Church reads like a Who's Who of Science: Copernicus, Bruno, Galileo, Descartes, Newton, Halley, Darwin, Hubble, even Bertrand Russell. The Church has also been on the wrong side of the social sciences for over 1,500 years, actively promoting slavery, anti-Semitism, the torture and murder of women as witches, sexual repression, censorship and the Inquisition, Crusades and other aggressive wars, and capital punishment for misdemeanors. This has given rise to a Christian field called apologetics, which attempts to defend the Church's errors, even claiming that science and Christianity are compatible friends, not enemies. But the atrocities and scientific errors were too profound, and stretched on for too many millennia, to be defended in any reasonable manner>"
 
Source
 
Narnian Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:31pm
Than you, Dr. Green.  With her pacemaker, she said she feels like a new woman.  Gotta love modern medicine.  A technician installed an app to my wife's Smart Phone so she can send data every few months.  Almost like science-fiction.  (I was looking around for Dr. McCoy of Star Trek.) 
Had to smile at your observation.  That was ironic, considering his "screen name".  I appreciate the respect you show.  There is no reason we can't have an intelligent and meaningful conversation.
 
The information on your link definitely makes a point, and I can't argue with it.  No doubt, the Church does have a dark history.  This is a link that I used as my source: Famous Scientists Who Believed in God.  I would be interested in your view, if you don't mind. 
You described Apologetics as attempts to defend errors of the Church.  My understanding of the term is more specifically about defending the faith.  @Steve Bergeron, who has also posted a lot on this topic, refers to himself as a Catholic Apologeticist (I'm sure I messed up the spelling.)  While we disagree on doctrine, I can see that he is very good at apologetics. 
 
I believe that there isn't any real conflict today between the Church and Science - with only one major exception (Theory of Evolution).
Barath Nagarajan Added Nov 15, 2017 - 6:04pm
Opher you said,
    Snakes(can't) talk.?
So let me get this straight, you're saying that animals can't talk. Can animals think? Do they have spirits?If they think why can't they talk in some manner?
   For example a boy hits his head and is unconscious, his dog goes and gets help, he barks at a policeman, or a person on the highway. He's trying to tell the bystander something, so he's trying to communicate a thought, so animals can think.