The Auschwitz You're Not Supposed to Know

The Auschwitz You're Not Supposed to Know
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The Auschwitz You're Not Supposed to Know

by Tom C. Purcell (edit & repost)

 

For a moment, put yourself in an awkward position. You are tasked with developing a plan of eradication of an ungodly infestation of vermin, and let’s say you would need to eliminate 2500 units per day. Let’s say you had no choice but to exterminate via poison gas, 2500 people per day to preserve everything good about the world. And you have to solve this problem, it’s up to you.

 

"Work Sets You Free"

 

Would you begin the plan by setting the fumigation trap for something that could only accommodate 500 per day, knowing it’s 1/5th of your tasked quota?  Would you begin with a slatted (where poison gas can leak out), wooden, household sized door for an average of 2500 people regularly entering through it every day? Would you have that door made to close from the outside, (where it can be pushed open)? You’d probably make entry wider with a steel door that latched on the inside, if you wanted to be an efficient “exterminator”, avoid constant mutiny and leaking poison gas.

 

Wooden Door to 'Gas Chamber'

 

Would you equip your death factory like Auschwitz allegedly was, with religious facilities, a stage for plays, films and musical performances, a swimming pool, sauna, soccer field and other sports facilities, a brothel, library, camp university, art school, an enormous kitchen, camp post office, dentist, hospital barracks and medical staff? Auschwitz even had a child care center for mothers in camps with young children, there was a complaint office where inmates could make suggestions or register a complaint, and camp-currency that inmates could use for goods at the camp market. Photos of these amenities can be found at http://www.rense.com/lets_stop_with_the_auschwitz_lies.htm.html.

 

Swimming Pool at Camp Auschwitz

Theater for Inmates at Auschwitz

Camp Currency *e.g. from Buchenwald

Camp Grounds Circa 1940-41

 

What about disposing of the bodies? Now you have a much bigger task. Let’s say you’ve managed to fit 2500 bodies into your 500 max-capacity gas chamber and are successfully meeting your 2500 per day extermination quota in this camp built with resort-like luxuries. We’re trying to fathom at least 2500 human corpses…every day, and they won’t all fit in the trash for the weekly pick-up.

 

At 65-80% water, human corpses take about an hour or more to completely cremate in the most efficient, modern crematoriums, but then the charred bones have to be crushed in a specialized machine. The smiting of bones completes the cremation process.   It would have been about the same process, but slower in older ovens back in 1940s Europe.

 

Cremation Ovens Fit for One Body at a Time

Crematorium at Auschwitz

 

This 2500 per day extermination figure is what has been claimed to have happened at Auschwitz-Birkenau. That’s how many Kahzars (Eastern European Jews) would be necessary to fully process from gassing to cremation, every day from when it opened until war’s end. According to records and other “eye-witness accounts” from Auschwitz, bodies would have been burned to ash in about 10-15 minutes - impossible.

 

But Auschwitz’s design, found only in blueprints and subsequent models, lacks the capacity and basic structural fundamentals to have been an efficient “death camp”. There were 15 ovens built into the camp, and squeezing multiple bodies into one oven only elongates the cremation process manifold. By the way, “death camp” is a term that has risen to popularity for holocaust protagonists in recent decades, but was not the term used during the war and certainly never a term used by the Third Reich. It’s also en vogue for holocaust protagonists to reply to these direct challenges with words and phrases like, “Treblinka”, “other death camps”, “they were taken to the woods or burned in huge pits”, if not direct name calling or worse aggression when they run out of other copouts and Spielberg imagery. Despite the myths and legends of camps like Treblinka, there is a much greater likelihood that these were labor camps, not designated “death camps”.

 

Inked at Auschwitz

Prisoner Fatigues - Auschwitz

 

But what about the piles of hair, clothes and so on? Well first of all, when you’re trying to control typhus you have to destroy the lice, and hair was shaved as part of the hygienic process. If they were just going to kill the inmates when they got there or not long after, why would they shave their heads and issue them worker’s fatigues? Often, it’s really just logic that comes into play when sorting out the so called holocaust. It makes no sense whatsoever to tattoo an inmate, shave their hair, shower, re-shoe and re-clothe them, only to murder them right after.

 

The fact is, many Jews fled Europe leading up to and whence Jews were being pogromed from Europe, to the U.S., to South Africa, to Australia, South America and elsewhere. Many changed their identities, erasing all things Jewish to avoid being identified as such. While millions of Jews were out of Germany and Europe, the numbers of Jews increased in other countries simultaneously.

 

But why were there 15 ovens? It does seem like a lot for a camp, especially by modern western standards. Well, first it was 1940s, not 2017, and diseases, particularly typhus became a major problem in camps, and Auschwitz was built to accommodate a larger number of inmates than any other camp. Germans were polished preparers. It was critical to disinfect and/or destroy all things typhus related. Lice infestations created an enormous typhus pandemic in camps. Let’s not forget that there were also suicides and deaths via other means including towards the very end of the war, the vengeance that the SS was prepared to unleash.

 

An orchestrated genocide is not what happened in WWII. If anything, a Jewish “holocaust” is what is used as the excuse for the German genocide that Jewish internationalists and Zionists committed by wielding the military might of the American and British bombers, along with of course, the Bolshevik menace.

 

To compress 2500 people into such a small space is another logical fallacy. To achieve this would require militant discipline, plenty of practice, especially through a small doorway, and would require absolute, obedient compliance of the victims. So a handful of SS guards could manage to get thousands of people to assist in their own homicide every single day, sometimes multiple times per day? Human instinct, basic logic does not correspond to this alleged, utterly complicit genocide legend. The shower rooms, which according to many were gas chambers disguised as showers, were built narrow and long. They were also underground, and the crematoriums above, so that meant they had to trick thousands of Jews into cramming into a small space underground, only to have to take every corpse up an entire level for disposal.

 

My bet is, the Germans being such supreme engineers, were smart enough to know that if they wanted to build an efficient “death camp”, they would not be so stupid to design the process for 2500 people to be led by trickery underground, fully submissive, compressed in a poorly designed, narrow room fit for 500 victims, then entangled tightly from their final, asphyxiated moments, and piled up atop one another, only to now have to detangle oft stiffened corpses and without a conveyor belt drag the bodies back up an elevator to the crematory, in groups of 6 to 7 bodies. Even with slave labor, the camp was ill equipped and incapable of holding up to the murderous legacy it has.

 

The design of Auschwitz and the alleged processes that took place do not add up to a Jewish holocaust. It sums up to a ridiculous story that Zionist Khazars, who call themselves Jews, have benefited from for more than 7 decades and counting. Every month or so, another thousand or so Jews claim they are owed reparations and largely Auschwitz is the culprit. In the last 10 days there have been at least two new claims for reparations, one in Poland and the other Latvia. In fact thus far, Germany has paid more than $80 billion in “holocaust” reparations. It is truly worth saying twice – more than $80 Billion to Jews, exclusively.

 

Sources…many people like to accuse me of using discreditable sources. Continue reading and there will be some newer sources but as always, I refer you to great historians like David Irving, investigative truth seekers like Ernst Zundel, honest Jews such as Benjamin Freedman, Harold Rosenthal, David Cole, and there are other Jews to which the truth is most sacred.

 

I imagine some of you want to say, “You’re just a denier, a racist, an anti-Semite, crazy,” and “where’s your proof?” I often get the demand from people, to prove that the “holocaust” as we know it did not happen. Aside from some basic arithmetic, logic and reason, in addition to my past works this is what I supply you with: Watch this documentation from March 2012; The Surprising Hidden Truth

This is just one source, but there are many others that I’ve referenced in prior posts and can provide at your request. Otherwise, feel free to challenge my article, but not by glamorized, unverifiable “holocaust” stories.

 

If you take the few minutes to watch that video, compare it to the power of a propaganda film like this: Eerie Auschwitz Add dark music, dark imagery and the word “Nazi” and bang - you’ve got yourself a holocaust. It’s also alleged that Auschwitz was eventually fitted with up to 52 cremation ovens by war’s end, which for 1 million human exterminations it would need to take less than 20 minutes per body with all 52 ovens running nonstop, which makes what we know as a “holocaust” an utter fantasy. Here’s another documentary done by independent researchers and narrated, using even different figures and trying to make it work: Pastor Steven Anderson - What Happened?. Here’s a 2015 Documentary: Holocaust 2015

 

The official historical version of Auschwitz is somewhere between inaccurate and conjured. To this date, people are still hunting down poor old men with any obscure connection to Auschwitz. Some are actually trying to put 96 year old men in prison for the “holocaust”. Let these men have some peace.   Leave them be. It was a terrible war, and arms were rested 72 years ago.

 

Jews died, they were expelled and encamped, sometimes abused and murdered. The same went for everyone in Europe in WWII, not just Jews. I’ll concede that Jews had a different plight in Europe than non-Jews, but they did not suffer from a planned genocide and so called holocaust. Hitler and the Third Reich did want rid of Jews, yes, Jews were wanted out of Europe, especially Germany, but the concept of a systematic genocide does not add up, not based on the facts.  Whatever the truth might be, it's worth pursuing and defending.

 

If you want to know more about Judaism and Talmudism from educated, critical thinking Christians, you’ll soak up Marching to Zion and be glad for watching it. Marching to Zion.

 

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it” – Adolf Hitler

Comments

Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 9, 2017 - 5:26pm
LOL
 
Good grief, Tom, are we going to do this again??????????
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 9, 2017 - 5:28pm
You specifically asked me to post this again, Jeffrey.  Don't do that.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 9, 2017 - 5:49pm
Tom, is this image what you really believe?
http://writerbeat.com/images/19452/JewTeacher.jpg
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 9, 2017 - 5:51pm
The image is very much an exaggeration of the truth.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 9, 2017 - 5:53pm
What, that six million Jews died in gas chambers?
 
BTW, Tom, I knew you would appreciate the publicity so I posted your article on Skeptics.  You are welcome:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27784&p=613167#p613167
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 9, 2017 - 6:01pm
Well I'll try to see how your friends in Club Shabbos handle it.  Tell them to come challenge me here on WB if they think they can handle a heavyweight.  *I don't play link-dodgeball though.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 9, 2017 - 6:07pm
LOL
BTW, I always wonder why more deniers don’t join Skeptics.  I mean, you won’t join, why is that?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 9, 2017 - 6:08pm
Page layout.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 9, 2017 - 6:11pm
Is that all?  I actually find it easier.
 
You should really join, Tom.  All of our resident deniers ran off.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 9, 2017 - 6:14pm
"Tom, come on over it'll be fine!"   - "Why do all of you have both hands behind your backs?"  - "Oh it's nothing just come on over and join us!"
 
Yeah, and you should join the Black Panther Party, Jeffrey.  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 9, 2017 - 6:19pm
@Tom Purcell:
”Tom, come on over it'll be fine!" - "Why do all of you have both hands behind your backs?" - "Oh it's nothing just come on over and join us!"
 
Tom, if you aren’t willing to step out of your comfort zone and show confidence in your beliefs, what does that say about you?
Me?  I post wherever.  
I think your heroes would be disappointed in you.

“Yeah, and you should join the Black Panther Party, Jeffrey.”
 
That makes no sense, Tom.  I’m not black.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 9, 2017 - 6:20pm
"That makes no sense, Tom.  I'm not black.  Exactly, get it?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 9, 2017 - 6:26pm
Oh, well.
 
I always try and get deniers to join us, they don’t want to.
 
It’s because they lack conviction in what they believe.  That’s fact, it has to be.
 
In any case, Tom, we will start our instruction on Auschwitz tomorrow.
opher goodwin Added Nov 9, 2017 - 7:01pm
Tom - I'm quite appalled.
I visited Dachau. It was nothing like you describe. The shower chambers where the Zyklon was dropped in were large and have airtight doors. It was mass killing on an industrial level. The crematorium had large ovens to dispose of the masses of bodies.
I saw the films made of the concentration camps with the emaciated bodies being dumped in huge mass graves following the liberation.
I am appalled by your apology for genocide and mass murder. The cruelty was barbaric and inexcusable by any civilised person.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 9, 2017 - 7:07pm
Oh you were there at Dachau?  Well geez it must have happened then.  All Six Mill.  Right?  Lol. 
 
Heard this one?  A car salesmen approaches a Jew that has his eye on a full size automobile.  The Jew asks the car salesman how many passengers it will seat - "how many will fit"?  The salesman, hoping to sell a car replies, "Two up front, three in back, and about six million in the ashtray."
 
I'm pretty sure Dachau was one of the many "death camps" rebuilt for tourism.  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 9, 2017 - 7:21pm
Opher, Dachau was not a death camp.  It was a concentration camp, the oldest one in the Reich.
 
There is a lot of controversy about the Dachau Gas Chamber.  It’s likely it was used, however, only for experimental purposes.  It was never used for mass killings.  Most of the deaths that occurred in Dachau occurred through starvation, mistreatment by guards and epidemics.  Most of the dead were not Jews.
 
I don’t want to contradict you but we need to be very specific about this and as accurate as we can.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 9, 2017 - 11:41pm
@Tom Purcell:
”Pastor Steven Anderson - What Happened?”
 
Hey!!!!  I watched that one!!!!
 
I made some comments but unfortunately the video is now limited.
 
My professional opinion is that Pastor Anderson is full of shit.  I told him that...and explained why.
Autumn Cote Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:34am
Please note, it's against the rules to post articles here unless you comment on the work of others.  
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:34am
I find the door thing hilarious. So the outer door is the door to the gas chamber?
 
I can't even make my way into this thinking. So the photos show something that did not exist? Or did the camps exist, but were only hollyday parks with swimming pools and theaters?
 
Who ever said that this wooden door is the door to the gas chamber? The people who deny the existance of the gas chamber, obviously, but who else?
 
In the comments you blast a lie that nobody tells. Six millions is an estimate of how many Jews lost their lives because of the Nazi terror. Who ever said that they were all gassed in Auschwitz? Most holocaust victims died from hunger and exhaustion.
 
Are you aware that corpses were recycled? Hair, bones, skin were used in products. How long do you think does it take to burn the rests of an emaciated body in a high-temperature oven that is already heated. Isn't 15 minutes even long?
opher goodwin Added Nov 10, 2017 - 5:27am
Unbelievable in this day and age that there could be people who are apologists for such terrible acts and spent their time trying futilely to nitpick over inconsequential trivia to try to prove it's all fake. That is either nuts or plain evil.
The piles of emaciated bodies are all fake? Grow up! 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKmUZprD3RA
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Nov 10, 2017 - 5:50am
Doodledoodledoo. Here we go again :-)
 
As I always say: The truth finds itself in the middle. Exaggeration is propaganda and politics from either side.
 
So the truth lies somewhere between Tom and the rest of the commenters.
opher goodwin Added Nov 10, 2017 - 6:22am
Stone - who really cares if it was 6 million or 6 thousand. It happened. It was deplorable. It was the very worst side of human nature. It was evil.
As someone who has visited the sites, read extensively and seen a lot of the documentation and seen the footage I find it incredible that anybody could deny the level of atrocity.
It was 6 million. Murdered systematically, cruelly and callously. Starved to death, worked to death, gassed, shot and experimented on.
I suppose they'll be canonising Mengele next.
People can be monsters. Stalin, Pol Pot, the Rwanda instigator, Milosevic and Mao fall into the same camp. To excuse these monsters and their actions is despicable.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 9:55am
Everything in this article is true, Opher. 
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 9:56am
Autumn, good thing to know that I haven't broken that rule of yours.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 10:28am
Everything is true? So the outer door is said to be the door of a gas chamber? Quote and give a source!
 
No, seriously, how can you think people built Auschwitz as a tourist attraction and yet use some blankets (are they strapped together?) as a door of the mock gas chamber? Do you think everybody who visits the place is blind?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 10:36am
Not blind, Goldstein.  Misled.  Imagery is a very powerful thing.  Imagery and legend are the primary reasons, along with a Christian upbringing, that I spent half of my life damning the Germans for WWII and the Hollywoodcost. 
 
Sheer morbid curiosity piqued my interest in the subject, and after many years of immersion into WWII and European studies I have arrived at some complicated, difficult truths that reside in a convoluted mess that the west calls WWII history. 
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 10:54am
You can't answer one single question. And I think the problem is that you have invested too much time in an error to admit it.
Nobody, apart from you and other holocaust deniers, claims that this door is supposed to be the door to a gas chamber. It's ludicrous.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 10:56am
@Benjamin Goldstein:
”Everything is true? So the outer door is said to be the door of a gas chamber? Quote and give a source!”
 
I’m trying to find it, Benjamin.  If I’m not mistaken then that door is part of the Auschwitz photo album and Jean-Claude Pressac identified it as a gas chamber door.
 
There’s something odd about it, though, I think it’s mislabeled and might be from the Majdanek camp.
 
I’ll see if I can find it.
 
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 11:00am
BTW everybody can check that. If you go to images.google.com you can do a reverse image search.
All pages from holocaust deniers.
 
I did it for you. So here is the link to the results.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 11:03am
Jeff: So a photo album was mislabeled. Yet in Auschwitz nobody claims that this door is the gas chamber door. And aside from this labelling mistake that probably went unnoticed by the guy nobody claims that this door is the gas chamber door.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 11:15am
Jeff: I just googled the name of this photo album dude. He was a holocaust denier and then changed his act a bit (not entirely) and we don't even know when he 'identified' the door as a gas chamber door. Probably when he argued that it all did not happen.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 11:18am
How many protagonists does it take to rap at the chamber door?  Corny, I know but I couldn't stop myself. ;)
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 11:23am
I'm a jew and that joke went even above my head. So ?!?!?!
Can you answer any questions? Who makes the claims that you pretend to correct? (Indivuals no resort to 'the Jews say...').
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 11:26am
Edgar Allen Poe - his famous poem 'The Raven'.  Literature 101. 
 
Which questions aren't already answered in the article and the references provided?  Have you watched any of the videos or read the entire post carefully at all?
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 11:44am
I apologize for my sissy remark on your other post. I indeed mixed them up. You may delete my false allegation there of course. I would more than approve that.
 
The article does not answer the question who made the claims. I asked specifically about the door (one thing at one time). What person or institution says that this is the door to the Auschwitz gas chamber (or to any gas chamber)? Can you point to a website by a respectable group or person that shows this door as a door of a gas chamber?
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 11:45am
BTW I'm German. I'm not well-versed in English literature.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 11:50am
Are you a Jew or a German?  You can't be both.  You can speak German and be a Jew.  Is that what you mean?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 11:52am
@Benjamin Goldstein:
 
Benjamin, are you dismissing Jean-Claude Pressac for his original views that he then changed?
 
Pressac’s book is considered top-notch, a seminal work in utilizing original documents in figuring out how the gas chambers worked.  I frequently use his book, along with Robert Van Pelt’s report on Auschwitz for the David Irving Libel Trial, to argue points with deniers.
 
Also, PHDN is not a “denier website.”  It’s original founder, Harry Mazal, created it in order to have a website to gather materials on the Holocaust.  It was off-line for a bit (I had to use the way back machine to access it) but it is now back up and running:
http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/index.html
 
It, along with Nizkor and Holocaust Controversies, are some of the best resources I know in finding documents and combating Holocaust denial.
 
 
 
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 11:52am
I am a German and I am a Jew and proud of both.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 11:53am
It's in the Auschwitz blueprints and models.  At least two of the video links included in the article explore the chamber door in detail.
 
The chamber door is just a piece of this.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 11:54am
Though I must say I am a tad critical recently of what I see as the decline of German culture.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 12:00pm
"I am a German and I am a Jew and proud of both." 
 
Oh, you're one of those... a Jew or German depending on which is most beneficial for you at the time.  Let me guess, you had relatives in a death camp that were subjected to Mengele's experiments? 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 12:02pm
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 12:06pm
Jeff: phdn? Can you point me straight to the entry with the door, so I can check what person makes the claim?
 
I did not know this Pressac dude. But my short search found that he started out as a denier. When did he identify the door as a gas chamber door?
BTW It could possibly be sealed with metal on the other side. Somehow the door does not fit the frame. Maybe photo was shot after the thing burned down a bit and they unhinged it. So the photo could give the impression that it was like some loose blankets when in reality it was tightly sealed. I just see that the photo is hardly presented by anybody who is not a denier. And I wonder why nobody else shot a photo of this gas chamber entry.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 12:11pm
This door was found on a trash dumb! The caption is a guess!
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 12:16pm
You can't make that up. They found a door on a Bauhof trash dumb and tried it against variable frames. That is probably why it does not match in the photo above. And the conspiracy theorists have their field day. Hahaha
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 12:21pm
...various...
I'm bad a proof reading.
opher goodwin Added Nov 10, 2017 - 12:24pm
Tom - are you mad? You can't be a German and a Jew? That is like saying you can't be a Christian and an American isn't it?
I think you allow your racism, anti-Semitic views and grotesque attitudes towards the holocaust to get the better of you. 
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 12:27pm
In terms of race, a German is not the same as a Jew.  Don't tell me that Jewishness isn't a race.  Not all Jews but the ones I oppose are fundamentally racist, religiously supremacist, and dangerous to Christians.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 12:29pm
Goldstein might be a mixed race but he's not pure German and pure Jew (Kahzar/Ashkenazi in the case of a Goldstein)
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 12:33pm
Judaism is a people not a race. i forgot your old article. Are we Russian or Oriental?
I did admit that I went to the wrong article and accused you of deleting comments. Can you admit that the door above does not even meet the frame?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 12:40pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
 
I’m not sure what your issue is.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 12:45pm
Jeff Kelly: Maybe you specify your question. The door was found on a trash dumb. They tried it against various door frames like in the picture above. The door is MUCH smaller than the frame? It can't be some optical illusion, can it? The door is closer to the camera and yet much smaller than the frame.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 12:54pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
 
Is your issue that Pressac leaned towards denial?  Or that the door is wooden?  Or found on a trash heap?
 
What is your problem with PHDN?  Did you read my comment above about it?
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 1:00pm
I did not say that PHDN is holocaust denial. It is the site that told me that they found the door on a Bauhof trash dump - your link goes straight there.
 
I mean the holocaust denier case is absurd anyway. It isn't even a case. Hard to say what we disprove here. Are they saying that ALL alleged gas chamber doors did let gas out and therefore they are no gas chambers? What is even the case?
 
This door was probably something different. Yet the image goes round among holocaust deniers that ...eh... gas chambers were not tight and therefore didn't exist or so. How can a case fall apart if it isn't even made? Frustrating!
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 1:20pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
 
Eyewitness testimony states the doors were strong, wooden doors:
 
”From the corridor they went through the door on the right [1a] into the gas chamber. It was a wooden door, made of two layers of short pieces of wood arranged like parquet. Between these layers there was a single sheet of material sealing the edges of the door [3] and the rabbets of the frame were also fitted with sealing strips of felt. At about head height for an average man this door had a round glass peephole [see Document 11]. On the other side of the door, i.e. on the gas chamber side, this opening was protected by a hemispherical grid [see Documents 12 and 13]. This grid was fitted because the people in the gas chamber, feeling they were going to die, used to break the glass of the peep-hole. But the grid still did not provide sufficient protection and similar incidents recurred. The opening was blocked with a piece of metal or wood. The people going to be gassed and those in the gas chamber damaged the electrical installations, tearing the cables out and damaging the ventilation equipment. The door was closed hermetically from the corridor side by means of [two] iron bars (see Document 11] which were screwed tight [by means of two angled bolts which screwed through the catches onto the bars, which were themselves fitted with handles].”
 
http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/pressac0483.shtml
 
 
The thing is, the Germans used wooden doors to seal the regular delousing buildings:
 
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/disinfectionbldgBW5b_zyklonb15.jpg
 
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/auschwitzbirkenau.htm
 
 
 
 
 
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 1:31pm
Jeff: I said in a previous comment that it is possible that the door is sealed on the back or as in your description now there is a metal fold in between.
 
The thing with this door, though, is that the picture is supposed to prove that the gas chambers were not tight. They use this image because the door is shabby. The edge on the bottom right is somehow burnt off or broken off. So this is not one of the doors that you describe where a metal plate runs from left to right. More likely: it's just a door. Doors at the time were not terribly fancy. Oh my gosh, when I think of the self-made doors of my grandpa....
opher goodwin Added Nov 10, 2017 - 1:33pm
Tom - so that that basis all the Americans of European descent or African descent are not American. That is pathetic. If you are born in a country your have that nationality. It is nothing what-so-ever to do with race. That is churlish racist nonsense like this article.
My grandchildren were born in America. They are American despite having English parents.
Judaism is a religion not a race.
The holocaust happened. Millions of innocent people Jews, Gypsies, criminals and the disabled were systematically shipped like cattle, starved, worked to death, shot or gassed. Their treatment was disgusting, inhuman and should make all right-minded people outraged.
I visited Dachau, saw the places they were gassed with zyklon and the crematorium they were burnt in. I have watched the documentaries of the liberation of those camps with the repulsive footage of the emaciated bodies and heaps of corpses.
Your attitude towards Jews and the Death Camps disgusts me.
You make me ashamed.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 1:33pm
The fact that it doesn't meet the frame is even suggestive of the idea that the gas chambers were not tight. But again, what is even there case? Do they think in Auschwitz or Dachau doors that don't match frames are presented to visiters?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 1:55pm
@ Opher - LOL!!!  German is a nationality and a race.  Germany is inhabited by a wide range of races nowadays but it wasn't always the case, and in fact that's what Hitler and the Nazis wanted to prevent - precisely what is occurring there now.
 
Judaism is a religion, Jewishness is a race.  The Kahzars adopted a form of Judaism that is really Talmudism.  They claim to be Jews by race but Kahzars are not from the seed of Abraham, they're not of the holy land. 
 
Others -  this article is about far more than the chamber door(s). 
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 2:03pm
Purcell: I don't pass to other things until your position on the door is clear. You included it after the sentence:
You’d probably make entry wider with a steel door that latched on the inside, if you wanted to be an efficient “exterminator”, avoid constant mutiny and leaking poison gas.
Can you somehow explain what the point is? You say that there was no gas chamber and somehow this door illustrates it because it would leak gas. Can you clarify that? What is the reasoning?
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 2:05pm
Judaism is neither just a religion nor a race. It is a people (with a religion).
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 2:32pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
 
I think we are going round and round.
 
Suffice it to say the door does match what is described, it’s also somewhat hard to tell with the picture I posted all of the details of the door.
 
My suggestion to you is to click the link I posted to PHDN and look through the documents listed there.
 
Also:
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=10054
 
The above links to several suggested websites.  We also had deniers put in theirs, I would just ignore them.  There are three pages worth of possible sites to visit.
 
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 2:39pm
Jeff Kelly: Wow, now I take the position of Tom: The skepticforum is terribly layouted. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to find there.
 
The door does vaguely meet the description, but it is probably not a gas chamber door. The edges are not strengthened and the bottom right edge is broken off. It is even immaterial. I want Tom to tell us what reasoning the door picture is supposed to support. I don't see how this door does deny the existance of gas chambers.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 2:47pm
Benjamin,
I think I understand your contention on the chamber door.  Well, if you were using a high enough concentration of Zyklon B in enough volume to exterminate over 2000 people, you'd use the available technology and engineer at least one, if not more double wide entries with heavy locking steel doors. 
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:01pm
Tom,
most pictures of doors that I have seen of concentration camps do look quite tight.
Where does this number of 2000 people come from? To which gas chamber is this number attributed?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:10pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
 
Sorry you feel that way about Skeptics.  I actually find it easier than here, you can reply back easier and it’s easier to find subjects.  I’m also accustomed to forums that have that layout.
 
”The door does vaguely meet the description, but it is probably not a gas chamber door.  The edges are not strengthened and the bottom right edge is broken off.”
 
You are looking at a damaged door, not in its original condition.  Windows were common in such door but the key is the wire mesh, designed to protect the glass from being broken from the inside.  That is what sets it apart from the doors used at the delousing buildings.  This is why it is identified as the door to one of the gas chambers.
Also, you do understand that the SS began dismantling the buildings containing the gas chambers and blew them up before they evacuated Auschwitz in January of 1945, right?
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:13pm
@Tom Purcell:
”I think I understand your contention on the chamber door. Well, if you were using a high enough concentration of Zyklon B in enough volume to exterminate over 2000 people, you'd use the available technology and engineer at least one, if not more double wide entries with heavy locking steel doors.“
 
 
Why?  The delousing buildings used wooden doors.  The delousing buildings themselves were exposed to higher concentrations of cyanide, wooden doors are not a problem.  They can be made air tight.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:15pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
”Where does this number of 2000 people come from? To which gas chamber is this number attributed?”
 
Both Krema II and III are described as holding up to 2,000 victims, Krema IV and V held less.
Dave Volek Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:20pm
Tom posted a similar article about a year ago on WB. I can't find it right now. But a lot of the technical nature of what he had said was debunked with the responses. 
 
If I recall correctly, one contributor said that cremating emancipated corpses would be a lot easier than a usual corpse. Sort of like burning five sticks of 2" diameter wood as opposed to one 10" log. That made sense to me, but unfortunately we had to reduce this issue to this technical level.  
 
Other comments were: (1) the Germans were master engineers and organizers--if they could conduct a blitzkrieg into Russia, handling the technical details of a death camp should have been a cinch, and (2) the Germans tried their best to hide evidence of these camps--so some buildings and documents were likely destroyed. So some of the details may be lacking to fully support the 6,000,000 figure.
 
This time, the respondents didn't seem to go in the technical direction. But I admire those of you who have ventured into the websites Tom has suggested to hear the denier's side of the story. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:22pm
Jeffrey, are there other pictures of exactly this door. Because I don't see a wire mesh. My contention with the picture is that it is presented as an argument that gas chambers are not tight when the door shown is broken on the edge and does not even meet the frame.
 
Tom, I also don't see why the door would need to be 100% airtight. Some gas can evade. The room before the door must be aired before it can be entered (but that is also true for the chambers themselves). Zyklon B is not as expensive as gold, either (I'm a Jew, I can tell). For the argument of stability: A heavy wooden door isn't easily broken.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:31pm
Dave: I think he cleaned it up a bit then if so much was already debunked. So arguing with him is somewhat worthwhile after all. I also noted above that incrementing dry, emaciated bodies is done in no time.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:34pm
It's remarkable how foolishly presumptuous you are, Ben and Dave.  As it says in the article and has been proven time and again, emaciated bodies do not burn faster because they lack the fat to burn any faster, and their still over 65% water when dehydrated and famished. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:36pm
I think it might be useful at this point to actually identify the gas chambers in use at Auschwitz.
 
Auschwitz I-Krema I, the original crematorium built in Auschwitz I, it contained the first gas chamber (some initial experiments with Zyclon B were conducted in sealed rooms but I’m not going into that).
 
Auschwitz-Birkenau-the first provisional gas chambers were converted farm houses, known as Bunker I and II.  These were converted and put into use in the Spring of 1942, I held about 800 people and II about 1200.  These bodies were cremated in the open field behind the structures.
 
Kremas II and III, built in Birkenau, they came on line in the Spring of 1943.  They were underground and could hold about 2,000 people each.  IV and V, also built in Birkenau, came on line in the Summer of 1943, these were above ground.  To correct something I said, they also could hold about 2,000 people.  I mixed up cremation ability, II and III could cremate up to 1,440 and IV and V could only cremate 768 in a 24 hour period.  This was at optimum, the numbers were usually less.  
 
The Germans converted the old crematorium into an air raid shelter in 1944 (I think, I’m doing a lot of this by memory).  The Germans destroyed the other structures before they evacuated the camp.
 
Now, the last time I did this I provided links.  This was all wasted when Tom left and his article was deleted.  I’m not going to waste my time doing that this time.  Google is your friend...or, I may just do my own article but I don’t have time for that now.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:43pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
”Jeffrey, are there other pictures of exactly this door. Because I don't see a wire mesh. My contention with the picture is that it is presented as an argument that gas chambers are not tight when the door shown is broken on the edge and does not even meet the frame.”
 
I don’t really care about what Tom posted, I’m relying on the link that I posted.
 
http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/pressac/technique-and-operation/image_files/232-01.jpe
 
The picture on the right shows the grill (though not clearly).
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:46pm
because they lack the fat to burn any faster
This is silly. I shouldn't have used the word 'dry'. It does not matter. They had little body mass and burned quickly. How long do you think does it take to burn down a corpse in an oven before you have enough room to shove in the next?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:49pm
Document regarding cremation times, 24-hour time period:
 
http://s3.photobucket.com/user/Rodoh_Hans/media/Bischoff_28June43.jpg.html
 
Granted, this was optimum and only occurred when all the muffled were in operation. Generally some were off-line for repairs.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:51pm
Jeff Kelly: Oops, I had seen the pictures of course. Though, I did not see the grill (and still don't to be honest).
But there is another problem. I think it isn't the door! The one in that picture has metal-strengthened edges and nothing is broken off.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:51pm
*muffles, not muffled
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:55pm
Y'all shouldn't pretend to be experts on cremation.  I spelled it out in the article, imbeciles.  If you don't like my brief synopsis then do some of your own research on cremation.  Modern ovens still take up to 2 hours per body for cremation. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:55pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
”Jeff Kelly: Oops, I had seen the pictures of course. Though, I did not see the grill (and still don't to be honest).”
 
See the door on the right, the one that is tilted?  Expand the picture, it is the “bubble” near the top.
Sorry, I do this on my phone and can not manipulate the picture for you.
 

“But there is another problem. I think it isn't the door! The one in that picture has metal-strengthened edges and nothing is broken off.”
 
This is the door Pressac identifies as a gas chamber door, due to the grill.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 3:56pm
...Imbeciles include Benjamin "Gurion" Goldsttein and Dave Volek.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:04pm
Jeff Kelly: So the door that Pressac identified has nothing to do with the door in this article, right? I would also not see where the square under the bulleye has gone. So this door in the article is probably not a gas chamber door.
Imbecile: Modern ovens are used to cleanly seperate the ashes of the late and make sure that the entire body is burned before the next body comes in.

 
 
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:06pm
@Tom Purcell:
”Y'all shouldn't pretend to be experts on cremation. I spelled it out in the article, imbeciles.”
 
LOL
That is truly amusing, I will explain below.
 
“If you don't like my brief synopsis then do some of your own research on cremation. Modern ovens still take up to 2 hours per body for cremation.”
 
Tom, there is no comparison between modern cremation and what the Germans did.
 
In modern cremation we are talking about a corpse that may be encased in a coffin and definitely clothed.  Care is taken to separate the ash and cleaned out the oven before the next cremation.
This is about respect for the dead.
 
The Germans didn’t care about that.  Their concern was to burn as many bodies as possible, 3-4 in each muffle at a time.  Where this didn’t suffice the bodies were burned in pits.  No clothes, no coffins, no separation of ash or cleaning.  The cleaning only took place during down time.  This is what led to breakdowns, the SS were not professional morticians.  The bodies were alternated between adults and children, long-term prisoners and new arrivals.
 
Needless to say, this was not the same.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:07pm
Okay genius, why were cremation ovens in Auschwitz built for just one body?  Why wouldn't they have built industrial sized cremation ovens to achieve their master plan of Jewnocide?
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:10pm
Wasn't the whole thing industialized enough?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:11pm
It's useless to argue the cremation holocaust theory.  There are no facts to support this claim.  
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:14pm
It doesn't add up, Goldstein.  That's why I'm brazen enough to post articles like this.  We've been taught a comic book version of WWII history and it requires investigation and revision.  The German people have suffered enough at the hands of Zionists and Zion.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:17pm
Tom: Now, you try to complete steer away from your article. So I shelf the cremation for a moment. Can you admit that your door picture did not support any argument that there were no gas chambers?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:18pm
The gas chambers were for delousing, to control typhus, not kill people.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:24pm
The door in the image captioned 'Wooden door to gas chamber' , might have been the door to the showers, but such a slatted wooden door would not hold up to 2000 people trying to survive being gassed to death.
Edward Miessner Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:26pm
I thought I was going to read an article about the concentration camps of the Soviet Communists and instead got treated to... this.
 
I have seen photos of similar gas chambers staffed by Nazi camp prisoners and they were surrounded by piles and piles of naked, dead corpses and one was laid out on a grill to be inserted into the oven. I have also seen film footage of the British liberating the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp and there were just piles of these corpses lying around, some in open mass graves. You can't tell me they didn't kill off 6 million Jews en masse (and several million others). The Nazis used all manner of methods and in this regard disease and starvation were the Nazis' friends.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:32pm
Edward,
 
You've seen too many movies.  I believe the films you reference were actually directed by Alfred Hitchcock.  Not that there weren't actual dead bodies in these camps, emaciated by famine and disease, but in fact the black & white images you speak of have been seen by most of us and that's precisely what typhus looks like, that's what it does to the human body. 
 
A few dozen bodies dead from a typhus pandemic in WWII, on black and white film reel is not strange to me.  In fact even if there were images of dead prisoners from execution during wartime - a war that was actually Armageddon for Germans, doesn't surprise me nor does it compel me to jump to the conclusion that there was a planned genocide.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:41pm
The door in the image captioned 'Wooden door to gas chamber' , might have been the door to the showers, but such a slatted wooden door would not hold up to 2000 people trying to survive being gassed to death.
So we agree that this picture does not help you in saying that there were no gas chambers. Good.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:44pm
@Tom Purcell:
”Okay genius,”
 
Why, thank you, Tom.  At the very least I know more about Auschwitz than you.
 
:D
 
“why were cremation ovens in Auschwitz built for just one body?”
 
Because they were working with the available technology, the companies that built these crematorium only had experience with one body and there were material restrictions.  Building these Kremas ran off schedule because of a shortage of materials.
 
“Why wouldn't they have built industrial sized cremation ovens to achieve their master plan”
 
Actually there was a protype, Pressac talks about it.  AFAIK it never went beyond the planning/design stage.
 
“of Jewnocide?”
 
WTF?  I think the term you are reaching for is “Judeocide.”
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:45pm
@Tom Purcell:
”but such a slatted wooden door would not hold up to 2000 people trying to survive being gassed to death.”
 
Why?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 4:48pm
It couldn't hold the force and the weight of so many people pushing on it.  Plus it was hazardous to use for exterminating humans because gas would leak out all around it, and impractical because there would be survivors each time sucking air from the gaps and cracks - if it were actually sturdy enough to hold out all of the panicked people. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 6:25pm
@Tom Purcell
”It couldn't hold the force and the weight of so many people pushing on it.”
 
Not really.  It’s a single point in a concrete wall, you don’t have the full weight of 2,000 people bearing down on the door.  
 
You also have a poison gas filling the room with the oxygen levels declining at an exponential rate.  The people at the back succumb first, lessening the pressure.
 
“Plus it was hazardous to use for exterminating humans because gas would leak out all around it, and”
 
The door was sealed, making it air tight.
 
“impractical because there would be survivors each time sucking air from the gaps and cracks - if it were actually sturdy enough to hold out all of the panicked people.”
 
 
Um....no.  Read the description of the door that I posted above.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 6:35pm
You're really reaching, Jeffrey. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 7:03pm
@Tom Purcell:
”You're really reaching, Jeffrey.“
 
Nope.
opher goodwin Added Nov 10, 2017 - 7:08pm
Unbelieveable.
Inexcusable.
Subhuman.
A senseless debate. The facts are irrefutable. Only an idiot would attempt to deny that the Nazis worked through their Final Solution and were intent on wiping out the whole Jewish people. They were barbaric and disgusting.
Trying to make out otherwise with these silly arguments puts you in the same league.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 7:23pm
If the Nazis "were intent on wiping out the whole Jewish people", they would not likely have commemorated a coin with the star of Remphan (a.k.a. star of David) on one side and a swastika on the other, for example.  There would have been industrial sized cremation ovens, not a dozen or so single-capacity ovens, for another example. 
 
The Nazi elite were Zionists.  Hitler wanted the Jews out of Europe and if it meant granting them Zion in Palestine, so be it as long as it didn't come at the expense of Germany and Europe.   
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 10, 2017 - 7:25pm
One can't be emotional on this matter and still speak/write intelligently on it.  A man must discipline himself to think critically when it comes to the nuts and bolts of this legacy.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 10, 2017 - 9:49pm
@Tom Purcell:
”If the Nazis "were intent on wiping out the whole Jewish people", they would not likely have commemorated a coin with the star of Remphan (a.k.a. star of David) on one side and a swastika on the other, for example.”
 
What does that have to do with anything?
 
“There would have been industrial sized cremation ovens, not a dozen or so single-capacity ovens, for another example.”
 
Again, what does that have to do with anything?  
Tom, that’s supposition on your part.  That is pure hindsight, it’s like saying this didn’t happen because the Nazis would’ve come up with a better way of killing.  They worked with what they had and it worked quite well.  Where there were isssues they worked around them.
 
“The Nazi elite were Zionists.”
 
LOL
 
“Hitler wanted the Jews out of Europe and if it meant granting them Zion in Palestine, so be it as long as it didn't come at the expense of Germany and Europe.”
 
Except that that things didn’t turn out that way.  There was no mass exodus, there was no place for the Jews to go once the war started.  
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 3:01am
Jeff Kelly: coins, treaties, Palestine...there is a reason why he can't stay focused on his article. It doesn't hold water. That's why I simply drill down on the door.
 
Tom: The door above is what you offer to substantiate your claim that the gas chambers did not exist. So man up now and unequivocally agree that:
- ...the fact that the Nazi's technological choices differ from your personal practical approaches does not deny what they did.
- ...doors that are usually attributed to gas chambers look damn stable and airtight.
-....emaciated people who are choking don't push down walls and doors by sheer force. (Some basic understanding of Newton's laws would help you here)
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 10:26am
In terms of substantiation and credible data, my article and comments stand head & shoulders above the petty and fruitless comments made by Benjamin mostly, but some by, Dave, Opher...excuse me if I'm leaving anyone out.  At least Jeffrey K. makes some fair points and doesn't sound like a fool.
 
Some of you act like I haven't worked it out, as though my contentions are random and unstudied.   But it's clear that comments such as "emaciated people who are choking don't push down walls and doors by sheer force" is totally uninformed and naïve. 
 
I don't care if another _____stein doesn't like the truth, and doesn't like me or my work.  I fully anticipate comments like Goldstein's.  
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 10:43am
"emaciated people who are choking don't push down walls and doors by sheer force" is totally uninformed and naïve. 
So you say that emaciated people can push down doors while they are dying.
 
I asked you to admit three very obvious truths. And you can't. You could have still defended your "gas chambers didn't exist" position after admitting basic truths, but this is ultimately about balls. You don't have any, Sissy Goy.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 10:48am
Nice try.  Like Ernst Zundel said, "The Jews have a real holocaust coming".
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 11, 2017 - 10:49am
Zundel won’t be around to see it.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 11:03am
Kelly: I am impressed that you know all this stuff and these Nazi goys.
 
Have you found a proper source where a sane person attributes the door above to any gas chamber? The door which you found doesn't even have the same number of blanks. So I think this picture above is - as the reverse image search reveals IMHO - only circled among holocaust deniers as a strawman attack.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 11, 2017 - 12:23pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
”Kelly: I am impressed that you know all this stuff and these Nazi goys.”
 
In some ways I consider it a curse, this knowledge of denial and those who practice it.  This all started about five years ago.  I stumbled across a denier blog and my journey began.  I’ve read a few of the “Holocaust Handbooks,” visited their sites and blogs, joined a couple of their forums.
 
Along the way I found good resources to combat them and increased my knowledge of the Holocaust itself.  I’ve also met people like me on other blogs and forums, people who know far more than I do.  They’ve pointed me in the direction to books and other resources.
 
Before all this happened my interest was European History, in particular military history (odd for a liberal pacifist like myself, I know).  That knowledge helped me to see the inconsistencies in denial, it struck the wrong notes with me.  This is why their arguments never worked with me.

“Have you found a proper source where a sane person attributes the door above to any gas chamber? The door which you found doesn't even have the same number of blanks. So I think this picture above is - as the reverse image search reveals IMHO - only circled among holocaust deniers as a strawman attack.”
 
I lean on Pressac regarding the door, the picture I posted is the door he actually believed was a door to a gas chamber.  The pictures themselves exist from the Soviet investigation of the camp.  The Soviets made missteps in investigating the camp, a lot of the investigation seems geared towards propaganda purposes.  You can find the truth in what they found, though.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 12:39pm
Sounds like Jeffrey ought to post a Hollywoodcost article.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 11, 2017 - 12:44pm
I don’t know what “Hollywoodcost” means, Tom.  What I do know is I know far more about this than you ever will.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 1:05pm
It means the Jews own and control Hollywood and mainstream media, that the H-words have been cash cows for Jews for 7 decades, and that WWII history needs investigation and revision for the sake of truth and the greater good of mankind.  The wretched goyim are starving for truth. 
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 1:23pm
Kelly: I don't doubt that the door Pressac identified as a door to a gas chamber was that. I was caught up in it for some time and thought that this door, found on a trash dump, was the door in the article. Obviously both doors had nothing to do with each other.
 
So the ball that I try to get across is that if you see the picture again, take into consideration that it may have belonged to a delousing house or to some basement. The reverse image search does not point to a respectable site (I must confess here that Germany is very censor happy so I can't see what you see, so do a reverse image search yourself). My contention with the door from the very beginning was that it looked shabby and fragile.
 
The picture is propaganda material. Though doors of delousing houses and gas chambers look similar, I assume that the gas chamber doors where more stable and that the SS had a harder time to destroy them in the hurry. All doors that I see elsewhere look more stable. The door that you brought up had iron-clad edges. The door in this article is unprotected on the edges because the emittance of delousing chemicals are less of a concern than the emittance of zyklon B. Gas chamber doors are usually just stable and tight.
 
I had never been in such a holocaust debate in my life. So I don't know much details. I just used my basic debate mechanisms, but I must say that looking up stuff is really annoying because deniers put out so much tosh that it almost drowns everything.
 
P.S. I also used to be a pacifist left-winger until some years ago.
 
Tom: If you can't admit that water is wet if it doesn't serve you, you are a coward, as unmanly as it gets.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 11, 2017 - 1:25pm
@Tom Purcell:
”It means the Jews own and control Hollywood and mainstream media,”
 
Then it’s a good thing I simply don’t care about movies made about the subject.  I still haven’t seen Schindler’s List, Tom.  Nor will I.  Ever.
 
“that the H-words have been cash cows for Jews for 7 decades,”
 
So, you have numbers and other relevant data to back that up?  I know movies like Schindler’s List were blockbusters but for the most part movies like “The Pianist” and “The Reader” would hardly qualify as such.  There have been best sellers but as AFAIK books on the Holocaust and other related subjects don’t sell any better than any other similar books.  
 
“and that WWII history needs investigation and revision for the sake of truth”
 
Investigation and revision occur in history all of the time.  One of the most famous in regards to what we are discussing is “Functionlism vs. Intentionalism.”  Intentionalism says that genocide was always the goal, Functionalism says that the Holocaust grew out of certain specific conditions that occurred during the war.  For the most part most historians I read now are Functionalists, as am I.  It matches the available facts.
 
“and the greater good of mankind. The wretched goyim are starving for truth.”
 
Any “wretched goyim” who needs help can ask me, I have several good suggestions.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 1:27pm
I won't bite on the typical Jewish, petty, guttural bate.  I'm sure that you wouldn't say these things to my face if we found each other alone on the street Gurion Goldstein.   
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 1:33pm
Jeffrey,
 
Intentionalism and Functionalism is for those who need to draw a straight line down the middle and while this is an entertainable concept to debate, it's not the way I see it.  However, if I were teaching Hollycost 101 I would consider introducing and teaching that comparison. 
 
"For the most part most historians I read now are Functionalists, as am I.  It matches the available facts."
 
Then we agree largely, that circumstances were more or less blown in by the winds of war, so to speak.  Where we differ is that - to put it bluntly and overly simple - Tom doesn't think "holocaust" is an accurate description and Jeffrey thinks a lot more Jews were murdered by sinister Germans.  Yes?
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 1:37pm
I'm sure that you wouldn't say these things to my face if we found each other alone on the street Gurion Goldstein. 
You have no idea.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 11, 2017 - 1:46pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
”I had never been in such a holocaust debate in my life. So I don't know much details. I just used my basic debate mechanisms, but I must say that looking up stuff is really annoying because deniers put out so much tosh that it almost drowns everything.”
 
Here are some resources for you:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/?m=1
 
http://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/index.html
 
https://www.hdot.org/
 
Naturally I also use Skeptics, we exchange documents and book titles but apparently you don’t like the layout.
 
As for debates, I’ve been in several.  Deniers usually reduce things to “lies” and “forgeries.”
 


“P.S. I also used to be a pacifist left-winger until some years ago.”
 
I gather you and I differ politically.  It concerns me, this rightward shift in both the United States and Europe.  To me it augers conflict on the horizon.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 1:59pm
It concerns me, this rightward shift in both the United States and Europe.  To me it augers conflict on the horizon.
I agree. There is a rightward and leftward shift. More precisely, outside WB people don't talk with each other anymore. And i expect more political violence as a result of this. Some try to bridge the divide like Dave Rubin of the Rubin Report, but he is outcast by the left now. There are these purity spirals, the conformity pressure on the left that drives people to the right. It was also what pushed me away from it. My problem is that Germany is a left-wing extremist country now where you lose your job, family and friends if you take any conservative position on guns, immigration, death penalty, Islamism, war, or abortion. So I have to shut up and I am indeed writing under a pseudonym (Tom, jump on it how unmanly pseudonyms are).
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:18pm
@Tom Purcell
”Jeffrey,

Intentionalism and Functionalism is for those who need to draw a straight line down the middle and while this is an entertainable concept to debate, it's not the way I see it.”
 
There are differing degrees, Tom.  There are extremes in both sides.  I’d say the seeds of genocidal thinking always existed in Nazi philosophy, not just towards Jews but others.  That’s what happens when one group exalts itself over others.  That’s happened throughout history, the Nazis exalted “race” but for Communists it was “class” and economics.  Both carry dangers.
 

"For the most part most historians I read now are Functionalists, as am I. It matches the available facts."

“Then we agree largely, that circumstances were more or less blown in by the winds of war, so to speak.”
 
Yes and no.  I spoke about “seeds of genocide,” you can see that in the T-4 Program, the directed program to murder the disabled and the way Soviet POWs were treated.  In some ways it was the default mode of Nazi philosophy.  
 
Undoubtedly if given the opportunity the Nazis would have dumped Europe’s Jews in some inhospitable hell-hole like Madagascar or in the wilds of Siberia.  Same long-term solution, undoubtedly it would have decimated the Jewish population.  But, neither of those locations were an option.  
 
 
What the Einsatzgruppen, Order Police and SS Cavalry showed in the Summer and Fall of 1941 was that you could get Germans and their proxies to kill, even women and children, if given incentive.  The problem was mass shootings were loud and messy and caused psychological problems amongst the killers.  This caused the impetus to find other solutions that were less messy.
 
“Where we differ is that - to put it bluntly and overly simple - Tom doesn't think "holocaust" is an accurate description”
 
I’m not all that fond of the term “Holocaust.”  I use it for convenience, that’s all.
 
“and Jeffrey thinks a lot more Jews were murdered by sinister Germans. Yes?”
 
That’s a bit simplistic for my taste, Tom.  If we take a number of about 5.5 million Jews that died during the war versus the total number of ethnic Germans that died during and after the war then I’d say that number is probably higher.  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:22pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
 
I agree that extremism on both sides is an issue.  There are about 20% on the left and right that dominate conversation.  Extreme leftists piss me off just as much as the extreme right.  I’m a liberal but I have common sense.  I’m also a free speech advocate.
Edward Miessner Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:26pm
Tom, so what if they were directed by Alfred Hitchcock? They are still live footages of the aftermath of the liberation of the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp where Anne Frank perished. And yes, these bodies were all emaciated by famine and racked by disease including typhus. In the film survivors are seen heading for real showers, not the pretend ones the Nazis put on site, and afterward British military or red-cross nurses are seen delousing the survivors because it is the lice that are the agent of spreading typhus among the concentration camp inmate population.
 
You just hoist yourself with your own petard when you mention the starvation and typhus among the prisoners because that is but one disease among several that were the actual agents of death which the Nazis encouraged through their policy of malign neglect which included starvation rations. Gassing people in pretend showers weren't the only means of killing people off in these detention centres.
Billy Roper Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:36pm
I wonder why, if the sign at the camp saying how many had died there has been downgraded and changed three times, why it is that the official total has not been?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:38pm
Ok, Ed.  Of course there were other means of killing, none of which add up to Six Million Ashkenazim "exterminated".  Incidentally, even if there were Six Million people murdered in a comically botched genocide, that number  pales in comparison to the Seventy Million that perished as a result of WWII, including over Eleven Million Germans burned alive in a storm of fire dropped by American and British bombers on civilians in cities devoid of any military installations. 
 
If you want an unequivocal genocide to harp on, just look at what happened to innocent Germans during and after the war and enemy occupation to this day.
 
War is terrible and there were ugly perpetrators of atrocities in every nation, none nearly as bad as the Red Army, and there was no innocent participant that I know of in WWII (arguably Belgium in part and one or two others), but the truth is Germany was far more chivalrous and noble both militarily and civilly, at least until invasion came from all sides.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:39pm
Kelly: I regret that I used the word extremist in my previous comment because it is so abused now. I mean ideological purity freaks. There are people on the right that also drive me nuts. I hate sycophants. These same people exist on the left and the right and I wonder what they even disagree about. They could just agree on a Fuhrer and blindly follow him. My problem, and I am very serious, is that under Merkel who grew up as a devout socialist, free speech, the protection of the apartment, the rule of law and other democratic principles have gone out the door. And I mean really. Not this 'Trump is mean to CNN' BS panick. I talk about media leaders being replaced en masse by sycophants.
 
Miessner, Kelly: Can we insist that Tom admits on something before we go on and on about other topics and aspects of the holocaust with him? I wonder what a conversation is worth if somebody can't admit that people don't just push down heavy doors and that physical strength cannot be just multiplied by the number of individuals involved.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:39pm
...and when I say more chivalrous and noble, that goes with a grain of salt considering the recent history to the era and wartime in Europe.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:43pm
Tom, it must really bug you that I'm German and you are not. You will never be. hahahaha
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:43pm
@Billy Roper:
”I wonder why, if the sign at the camp saying how many had died there has been downgraded and changed three times, why it is that the official total has not been?”
 
I wonder why Billy can’t figure out that the original plaque never said the word “Jews” on it.
 
Here, Billy, let me help you:
 
J E W S
 
P E O P L E
 
See the difference?  
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:47pm
Goldstein, you are about as German as I am Jewish.  BTW I am proud to come from Baptist, Catholic heritage and Norse stock.   If you were German we'd be cousins but we're not cousins because you are Ashkenazi.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:51pm
More Germans are Jewish than Baptist. You are only a cousin to a German shepherd dog.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:53pm
Billy,
 
Good question, and thank you for highlighting the fact that Six Million was not only preordained Jewish scripture, but as you know there were multiple claims of Jewish "holocausts" with the magic number of Six Million in recent centuries alone.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:56pm
BTW you are much less a GerMAN. You can't admit anything.
 
You can have a dotty conversation with Roper now about all kind of off-topics that have nothing to do with your article. You either admit things or people won't engage you point by point anymore.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:56pm
"More Germans are Jewish than Baptist".
 
That'll happen when Communists and Zionists conquer.  I believe that Germany was a good, civilized Christian nation before WWII.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 2:58pm
I don't answer to you, Ben Gurionstein.  Move on, I won't miss you, it's clear that you're out of your league here anyway.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 3:10pm
I am out of my league. It is unusual for me to punch down. Baptism does not belong to Germany. The country is Catholic, Lutheran and Jewish. You don't belong. Deal with it!
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 11, 2017 - 3:10pm
For the curious, this is what Billy is blathering on about:
 
https://furtherglory.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/4million.jpg?w=240
 
It doesn’t say anything about Jews.  
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 3:15pm
Oh my gosh. I thought Roper was the smart Nazi here. Nobody claims that six million Jews were killed on  a spot and everybody knows that the Nazis also exterminated Eastern Europeans. Of course, he can't match numbers.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 11, 2017 - 4:24pm
LOL, no, Benjamin.  Billy is definitely not a smart Nazi.  Billy claims to have a Master’s Degree in history.  I sincerely doubt that but if true I think he needs to get his money back.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 4:28pm
Of his many intriguing titles, the only one I've read so far and highly recommend, is 'The Balk'. 
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 4:28pm
"his" = Billy Roper.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 11, 2017 - 4:37pm
@Tom Purcell:
 
”Incidentally, even if there were Six Million people murdered in a comically botched genocide, that number pales in comparison to the Seventy Million that perished as a result of WWII,”
 
I think your number is too high.
 
“including over Eleven Million Germans burned alive in a storm of fire dropped by American and British bombers on civilians in cities devoid of any military installations.”
 
Is that some sort of joke?
Max number that I’ve seen regarding German civilians killed by allied bombing is about 600,000.  That’s still a tragedy but exaggerating numbers is not a good way to generate sympathy, Tom.  That number is way too high even if you added up all the German losses in WW II.

“If you want an unequivocal genocide to harp on, just look at what happened to innocent Germans during and after the war and enemy occupation to this day.”
 
LOL, is that why Germany is the largest country in Europe, excluding Russia?  At the last census (I think) the number of people living in Germany is around 80,000,000, most of those being ethnic Germans.

“War is terrible and there were ugly perpetrators of atrocities in every nation, none nearly as bad as the Red Army,”
 
Well, not to excuse anyone’s behavior but the Soviets were understandably pissed at the wasteland the Germans left behind them as they retreated.  
 
“and there was no innocent participant that I know of in WWII (arguably Belgium in part and one or two others),”
 
We actually agree on that point.
 
“but the truth is Germany was far more chivalrous and noble both militarily and civilly, at least until invasion came from all sides.”
 
No, they were not.  It was with good reason that the Poles, Soviets, French, Yugoslavs, etc. hated their German occupiers.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 4:42pm
Jeff: I don't know if it makes sense to go from topic to topic as long as there is no agreement that all sides admit mistakes when they see them. I still wait to read that a heavy door is not just pushed down by tightly standing people who die of gas poisoning.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 4:43pm
My intention on the eleven million was not to say they were all burned in cities, but about eleven million Germans in total died as a result of the war and Soviet/Allied occupation.  At least six hundred thousand were burned alive, but more likely close to one million.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 4:47pm
Goldstein, your comments continue to make you appear like a fool with an agenda.  You don't want to hear it from me, and that's fine.  Just do some research on the plausibility of the Auschwitz "death camp", on cremation and Jewish emigration, along with the overall scope of WWII, and you might end up on the right track.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 4:51pm
Purcell: No, i don't digress to a google search about some things that are offtopic. You don't have to admit that people were gassed, but you should admit that people who are dying won't push down heavy doors.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 11, 2017 - 5:00pm
"but you should admit that people who are dying won't push down heavy doors"
 
I rest my case.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 11, 2017 - 5:01pm
because you can't win it.
Edward Miessner Added Nov 12, 2017 - 3:33pm
Tom C. Purcell wrote: "Incidentally, even if there were Six Million people murdered in a comically botched genocide, that number  pales in comparison to the Seventy Million that perished as a result of WWII,"
 
You forgot the 9 million others the Nazis massacred, most of them Slavs. And thewhole thing was a tragedy, not a farce. Your denial of it is a farce, though.
 
Only 56 million were killed in the course of WW2 including the Pacific Theatre of War. 56 million too many.
 
"including over Eleven Million Germans burned alive in a storm of fire dropped by American and British bombers on civilians in cities devoid of any military installations."
 
Total number of Germans killed only 7 million. 
 
"If you want an unequivocal genocide to harp on, just look at what happened to innocent Germans during and after the war and enemy occupation to this day."
 
Oh, I don't know about that. The Germans seem to have done well under "enemy occupation," especially after 1953. And with a name like Purcell you seem to be Anglo-American and not German. In other words, you are an "enemy" to Germany. Start acting like one.
 
"War is terrible and there were ugly perpetrators of atrocities in every nation, none nearly as bad as the Red Army, and there was no innocent participant that I know of in WWII (arguably Belgium in part and one or two others), but the truth is Germany was far more chivalrous and noble both militarily and civilly, at least until invasion came from all sides."
 
Oh, I doubt that. I remember a lot of Eastern European cities reduced to rubble by German firebombing. And the Nazis tried to starve out Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad. Their biggest success was Leningrad until the Soviets drove them out. And there was this London Blitz that I recall, in which German incendiary and explosive bombs were dropped upon the town, including residential sections.
Edward Miessner Added Nov 12, 2017 - 3:42pm
Benjamin Goldstein: "Can we insist that Tom admits on something before we go on and on about other topics and aspects of the holocaust with him? I wonder what a conversation is worth if somebody can't admit that people don't just push down heavy doors and that physical strength cannot be just multiplied by the number of individuals involved."
 
Agreed. I remember reading about fingernail clawmarks in the gas chamber walls but dying people pushing down doors is too much of a stretch. But it looks like our resident Holocaust-Denier "admitted" as much.
Edward Miessner Added Nov 12, 2017 - 3:48pm
Tom C. Purcell, this is directed at you: since you've admitted that people who are dying won't push down heavy doors. Now will admit that people who are NOT dying don't have the strength to push down doors? There was this Cocoanut Grove fire in Boston in 1940 and people who were desperately trying to get out were crushed, suffocated and asphyxiated to death because the doors didn't open outward, they opened inward and so were as good as locked tight when the crush of people were pressed against them. These were not weakened, enslaved Jews and Slavs and other Europeans, but healthy, hale Bostonians out for a night on the town in the United States of America. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 12, 2017 - 4:05pm
Edward, the doors to the gas chamber opened outward, not inward.  However, your comparison is still valid, the door locked securely in place.  We also have a similar circumstance of gas filling the room, this gas killed far quicker than smoke inhalation.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 12, 2017 - 4:06pm
The door opened outward to facilitate the unloading of corpses, the original doors in the plan opened inward.
Edward Miessner Added Nov 12, 2017 - 4:09pm
Hi Jeffrey, thanks for the information. :^)
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 12, 2017 - 6:33pm
Anytime, needless to say I’ve been back and forth over this.
 
Krema II and III were originally designed as morgues, as such the doors swung inward.  When the morgues were repurposed as gas chambers the two swinging doors were replaced a single, gas tight door.
 
If you have Netflix there is a documentary called “Auschwitz, Blue Prints of Genocide.”
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 12, 2017 - 7:48pm
I can't help but grin and chuckle at these desperately foolish comments by Edward.  You're a smart man, Edward, at least I think so.  So why don't you act like it?
 
I'm an enemy to the greatest lie ever told, that's all.  I'm a friend and ally to the truth.  If I'm wrong I'll admit it but all of the Netflix productions and clownish docudramas mainstream media spits up on the H-words will not distract me from asking important questions and thinking critically. 
 
When you read comments from Edward, Dave, Opher, Goldstein and the likes, and compare these comments to myself, Jeffrey's, Billy's and such, it's clear who is confident and well versed, versus who is superficially informed.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 12, 2017 - 7:55pm
BTW I've never made a claim that Jews weren't expelled, encamped and even murdered in some cases.  I question the Zionist narrative of  WWII and the Hollycost, and I don't believe there was a planned extermination of Jews.  Despite known stereotypes and anti-Semitism resident in Germany, the conflict was never racial or religious.  There was never a racial or holy war in WWII, except for maybe the Jews depending on convenience.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 12, 2017 - 7:58pm
One mustn't discount some key facts:  The number 'six million' is a preordained number in Jewish scripture and the claim of a six-mill-Jews holocausted has been made multiple times in the last few centuries.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 12, 2017 - 8:03pm
@Tom Purcell:
 
”I'm an enemy to the greatest lie ever told, that's all.”
 
That’s a bit melodramatic, Tom.
 
“I'm a friend and ally to the truth.”
 
So, you are open to the truth.  Good.  I’ll keep trying.
 
“If I'm wrong I'll admit it but all of the Netflix productions and clownish docudramas mainstream media spits up on the H-words will not distract me from asking important questions and thinking critically.”
 
Tom, the documentary in question utilizes original documents and interviews, as well as a site investigation.  It includes Professor Robert Van Pelt, who wrote a book about Auschwitz and submitted an expert report in the David Irving Libel Trial.  It’s a good starting point for anyone, it’s why I recommend it.

“When you read comments from Edward, Dave, Opher, Goldstein and the likes, and compare these comments to myself, Jeffrey's, Billy's and such, it's clear who is confident and well versed, versus who is superficially informed.”
 
Everyone starts somewhere, Tom.  I’ve explained some of my journey.  I help anyone who wants to know about this, I’ve had others who helped me in the past, I pay it forward when I can.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 12, 2017 - 8:10pm
Well, Jeffrey, it's different for you and the folks I accused of being superficially informed because they didn't attack you from the start.  I can say what I said because they dust me with insults and continue to judge me for what I firmly believe in.   Discrimination!  ;)
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 12, 2017 - 8:35pm
@ Tom Purcell:
”One mustn't discount some key facts: The number 'six million' is a preordained number in Jewish scripture”
 
Actually, Tom, according to a Hebrew speaker I know the number “six million” has no actual equivalent in that language.  That is a mistranslation.  
 
Really, though, it’s irrelevant.
 
“and the claim of a six-mill-Jews holocausted has been made multiple times in the last few centuries.”
 
Well, technically it lists them as in danger, for instance in 1906, that corresponds with several pogroms initiated by the Czarist Government during the 1906 attempted revolution.  The one in 1917, or, is it 1918?  Anyway, that corresponds with the Revolution and the Bolsheviks seizing power in Russia.  Both the “Whites” (the counterrevolutionaries) and Bolsheviks initiated pogroms against Jewish communities in Russia and former Russian territories.  The Ukraines and Poles did the same in their areas.  In fact,  Russia as a whole suffered and received outside aid.  This extended to everyone, not just Jews.  Herbert Hoover raised over 10 million dollars in aid.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 12, 2017 - 11:45pm
Tom: you are a snowflake
Miessner: He has not agreed on anything
Kelly: You continue to dance with him from topic to topic before he admits basic truths.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 12:26am
@Benjamin Goldstein:
”Tom: you are a snowflake”
 
Well, he is a Trump supporter....and Trump is a ginormous ❄️.

“Kelly: You continue to dance with him from topic to topic before he admits basic truths.”
 
To be honest, I’m used to it.  You won’t get Tom to admit to anything.  It’s the same with any denier.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 13, 2017 - 2:03am
Kelly:
To be honest, I’m used to it.  You won’t get Tom to admit to anything.
Pointless then. So stop it!
 
As long as he lacks self-awareness and any capability for introspection he is no better than Hillary Clinton. He will rather blame the Russians of gassing the Jews than to admit that the heavy doors aren't just pushed down by the added weight of 2,000 people.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 8:14am
@Benjamin Goldstein:
”Pointless then. So stop it!”
 
Benjamin, I’ve been at this for awhile with people like Tom.  In a way the whole exercise is pointless, they never admit when they are wrong and they can’t see the inherent contradictions in their views.
 
On a denier blog I trapped someone by forcing him over and over to acknowledge there was no proof for his position.  This went on for quite some time, I would drop it and do something else, come back and he’d dredged up some BS.  I would counter it and this person responded with a series of hypotheticals he couldn’t prove.  
 
When I continued he would say that the Russians destroyed the proof.  Or the Jews, the allies, etc.  
 
So, I’m not necessarily here for Tom.  I’m here for people who read his stuff and don’t know anything about the history.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 10:05am
Lol.  Don't perch yourself too high on that pedestal you built yourself, Jeffrey.  I respect that you have a better base of knowledge than most people, but I don't think you ask the right questions. 
 
Now, I'm sure some will say this about me but my view of your approach, Jeffrey, is that you aim to prove the established hollycost narrative, rather than to determine, from scratch, what might have actually happened and why.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 10:52am
@Tom Purcell:
”Lol. Don't perch yourself too high on that pedestal you built yourself, Jeffrey.”
 
I don’t.  I readily acknowledge that I need to learn more.  Trust me, I thought I knew but I quickly found out that I was a novice and to a large degree still am.
 
 
“I respect that you have a better base of knowledge than most people, but I don't think you ask the right questions.”
 
What questions?

“Now, I'm sure some will say this about me but my view of your approach, Jeffrey, is that you aim to prove the established hollycost narrative, rather than to determine, from scratch, what might have actually happened and why.”
 
What is there to prove?
 
Tom, I’ve gone over this time and again. Do you think I didn’t take a hard look at denial to determine what actually happened?  Why else do you think I would actually take the time to look at each of the claims in depth?
 
 
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 11:03am
We both know something happened but it's unlikely that either of our views will be proven indisputably, Jeffrey. 
 
I find it bizarre that the burden of proof in this society falls unto folks that question whether some things might not have happened.  "Tom, you can't prove that the holocaust as we know it didn't occur so therefore it did."   Can you think of any other scenario where the burden of proof is reversed like this? 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 11:31am
@Tom Purcell:
”We both know something happened but it's unlikely that either of our views will be proven indisputably, Jeffrey.”
 
Actually, the Holocaust is a fact of history, like the war itself.


“I find it bizarre that the burden of proof in this society falls unto folks that question whether some things might not have happened. "Tom, you can't prove that the holocaust as we know it didn't occur so therefore it did." Can you think of any other scenario where the burden of proof is reversed like this?”
 
 
I don’t know why you find it bizarre, deniers are the ones claiming a different version of history.  Don’t you think you should have proof to back up your version of history?
 
Let me put it to you this way:
 
It’s a historical fact that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.  If I tell you that it wasn’t, that the bombers were actually sent by the Australians using Japanese planes and ships, wouldn’t you want me to prove that?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 11:46am
The problem with that, Jeffrey, is that there is more proof available (and I've spelled it all out in the article, despite new figures being thrown around all the time) that there was a holohoax, than there is proof of a holocaust
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 13, 2017 - 12:07pm
Tom: I must admit that you admitted something, namely that the door in the picture did probably not lead to a gas chamber. I then followed up that all other doors that are usually ascribed to gas chambers look pretty stable and asked if you would also admit that a stable door wouldn't be pushed down (I also asked two other questions). At this impasse I called you names, because I become a bit impatient. The three questions were not too much to ask for either. So I felt you have a weak, unmanly character. I correct myself in so far as I see that you have admitted something. Partly redeemed.
 
Jeff: I understand that this has become a morbid hobby. But I think your approach is bad. It can't be reasonable that we start confusing history lessons without result. People need to see that some resolution is found. In principle, only the weakest characters are incapable of admitting things. Also holocaust deniers are capable of learning.
 
One should not expect too much from a debate though. You can only take out one stupid idea in a discussion. So get focussed.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 12:24pm
To all:
 
Once upon a time we presumed Neanderthal to be a primitive caveman and part of human evolution.  Nowadays we consider Neanderthal one of the most advanced races amongst a variety of human species.
  
Once upon a time we presumed flight an impossibility.  Nowadays we're sending probes around Pluto, and there is a movement to terraform and inhabit Mars. 
 
Once upon a time we presumed dinosaurs reptilian.  Nowadays there is more academic support for dinosaurs being a mix of warm-blooded animals, many of which evolved into birds.  The theory of their extinction being a giant rock from outer space slamming into the earth was largely considered absurd by academia, until it was thought through and Chicxulub crater was discovered in the Yucatan.   
 
One day we will know a purer truth about WWII.  Mark my words.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 12:43pm
@Tom Purcell:
”The problem with that, Jeffrey, is that there is more proof available (and I've spelled it all out in the article, despite new figures being thrown around all the time)”
 
The problem is, Tom, you basically told us about conditions in Auschwitz I.  Yes, all of those things existed.  But, they were not for the Jewish inmates for the camp.  Yes, some of the Jewish inmates did utilize the hospital at Auschwitz but these were valued workers, badly needed during the war.  The children, old people and women with children were expendable and treated that way.  Yes, there was, briefly, a family camp for Czech Jews while the Nazi administration figures out what to do with them...this camp was eliminated and the inmates killed.  Yes, there was a daycare center....for Polish women, not Jewish women.
 
None of those things were existed in places like Treblinka, Chelmno, Belzec and Sobibor.  The Ghettos had some of the things you talked about....in spite of, not because of, German assistance.
 
“that there was a holohoax, than there is proof of a holocaust.”
 
 
Not so much, Tom.  I’ve seen no real proof from you.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 12:54pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
”Jeff: I understand that this has become a morbid hobby.”
 
Well, it’s better than having affairs or purchasing sports cars.
 
“But I think your approach is bad.”
 
Benjamin, not to be a jerk about this but I don’t really care what you think.
 
“It can't be reasonable that we start confusing history lessons without result. People need to see that some resolution is found.”
 
This was resolved long ago.  The problem that Tom and others like him have is that they confuse what they want  with what actually happened.  I look at it as an overly romantic view of National Socialism, antisemitism and straight up Hitler worship.
 

“One should not expect too much from a debate though.”
 
I don’t.
 
“You can only take out one stupid idea in a discussion. So get focussed.”
 
Benjamin, I have far more experience than you about how this sort of thing happens.  You will not tell me how to conduct things with Tom or anyone else.  I hope we are clear.  You are more than welcome to continue in whatever vein you like with Tom.  But anymore “suggestions” from you on what I should do or how I should do it will only serve to piss me off.
 
Now, I have nothing against you personally.  I put aside our political differences because that is not relevant.  But I have far more experience than you in these matters.
Edward Miessner Added Nov 13, 2017 - 2:02pm
Tom, yeah, you got a finger pointed at me as "desperately foolish" and "superficially informed" but you have three fingers pointing back at you pointing your own self as such. So I guess you will never admit that desperate people pushing against locked, gastight doors cannot possibly push them open.
 
PS the vid converted from the film footage from Bergen-Belsen I saw was NOT a Netflix documentary but raw, unedited footage.
Edward Miessner Added Nov 13, 2017 - 2:03pm
Benjamin, "He has not agreed on anything."
 
I concede your point.
Edward Miessner Added Nov 13, 2017 - 2:06pm
Tom, one more thing: "I'm an enemy to the greatest lie ever told, that's all.  I'm a friend and ally to the truth."
 
So why are you spouting all this disinformation? 
Edward Miessner Added Nov 13, 2017 - 2:08pm
Jeffrey, not that I have anything against the Netflix documentary you linked, I was just trying to get through Tom's skull by using his language and seeing if it would work! :^(
Edward Miessner Added Nov 13, 2017 - 2:20pm
Tom, "To all:... One day we will know a purer truth about WWII.  Mark my words."
 
We already know about atrocities committed by the Allies during and after the war, including Eisenhower's concentration camps for German soldiers, probably in his view as payback for what the Nazis did to the Jews and several million others... except what the Nazis did never happened!!! Or so you think.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 13, 2017 - 2:31pm
Jeff: You have far more experience in debating people? Are you a lawyer? I usually don't do holocaust debates, but I shoot down antisemites regularly. And no, I don't suggest. I bully around. Because this is ridiculous. You don't close in on anything.
 
denier: "They were 200 gassed Jews. No more"
J: "Here, document that says 6 million"
denier: "but Hollywood is controlled by Jews"
J: "These studios are not"
denier: "But Senator Feinstein sucks"
J: "No, she is brilliant"
The problem is that the denier and a considerable audience never goes to really see that
- six millions were gassed
- goy hollywood exists (maybe)
- Feinstein....nobody can help you here
 
And it is questionable if you even have the evidence. The six million is an estimate. And it is not the same to make somebody concede an error and to make somebody acknowledge that he has no proof. The last point is irrelevant. We often don't have proofs for our positions. That in itself does not make people rethink their position. It only weakens their confidence. You need to force down a mistake after the other to change a mind.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 2:46pm
"except what the Nazis did never happened."
 
They invaded Poland - with just cause.  The atrocities committed against ethnic Germans in the established Polish territory granted in the Versailles Treaty is what actually started the conflict.  Initially, Germany just wanted the land and people back that were stolen by the said treaty.  WWII started only when France and England declared war on Germany.
 
Me:  What about Herzl and the Balfour Declaration?
Jew:  So what!  There was still a hollycost!
Me:  But the "holocaust" claim has been made several times in recent centuries, see here are the documents.
Jew:  I saw Spielberg and Polanski's award winning Holocaust Epics!  It happened.  I saw black and white film reel.  It was spooky and people were dead....so it happened you goy anti-Semite!
 
It's even been said by a Jew on this website that "Tom would probably just shoot a Jew if I could get away with it".  All because I want truth and justice for all of the fallen in WWII, including the actual heroes in the Waffen SS and Wehrmacht. 
 
P.S. both of my grandfathers served in WWII.   One in the U.S. Navy and one in the U.S. Army.  I think all veterans and casualties of WWII deserve the truth, no matter what it is.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 2:47pm
"if he could get away with it"
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 13, 2017 - 2:55pm
My family served in the gas chamber.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 2:59pm
Professional delousers in the camps, eh?  Well those folks made out like bandits....ended up getting all kinds of reparations and of course, Zion.  It's amazing how many claim to have performed such services, considering only a couple dozen or so were necessary during the majority of the war.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 13, 2017 - 3:16pm
Purcell: I don't even criticize deniers for jumping from one topic to another. I have a problem with those who refuse to pin you down.
 
Are you seriously saying that Jews do jump from every topic to the holocaust? I don't even know your problem with Herzl and the Balfour Delclaration and I don't even care. If you publish your article about one of those things we can still talk you through your problem. I don't jump around to the holocaust or to any other problem.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 3:17pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:

”Jeff: You have far more experience in debating people? Are you a lawyer?”
 
No, but my knowledge on this subject is considerable. This includes actual history and denier BS. I graduated with a degree in history so I know how primary and secondary sources work, I know the authors to trust and where to track down resources.
 
“I usually don't do holocaust debates, but I shoot down antisemites regularly.”
 
Good, you are the one qualified to do that as you are Jewish.
 
“And no, I don't suggest. I bully around.”
 
Hhhhhhhhmmmmm, was that a miscommunication on your part? A part of our language barrier? I hope so, Benjamin. I didn’t take kindly to being bullied as a kid and I sure as shit don’t take kindly to it as an adult.
 
“Because this is ridiculous.”
 
I’m going to go back to the part where I tell you your opinion of what I do is irrelevant. I can use different words if I need to.
 
“You don't close in on anything.”
 
Hey, Benjamin? The whole door thing became ridiculous. Tom isn’t going to admit that he is wrong, period. That’s the denier way. What I do is show people the evidence. They can compare it to what Tom is showing and make up their minds. They can ask questions and I can provide more. That’s how this works. I’m not trying to change Tom’s mind because it’s pointless and I’m not going to force him to admit he’s wrong because he will not.
 
I look at this as a learning experience. Deniers who are not antisemitic and Hitler-hero worshippers will change their minds. Pressac was one, so Charles Hovan. I do this for the people who are on the fringe who stumble across Tom’s stuff and ask questions.
 
“denier: "They were 200 gassed Jews. No more"
 
It’s extremely rare that any denier will use the words “gassed” and “Jews” in the same sentence. In fact, I’ve never seen it.

“The problem is that the denier and a considerable audience never goes to really see that
- six millions were gassed”
 
Um, no, six million were not gassed. Was that a typo on your part?
 
If we look at the max amount of fatalities due to gassing, perhaps around a million at Auschwitz (the vast majority in Birkenau) died in this fashion, followed by the combined totals for the Action Reinhard Camps and Chelmno, plus smaller actions at regular concentration camps, that number is about three million.
 
About 1.1 million died in mass shooting actions on the Eastern Front, so, what we can call death through “direct action” is about four million. The rest died by starvation, disease and maltreatment.
 
All told (and estimates vary) about 5.5 million Jews died at the hands of the Germans or their proxies.

“And it is questionable if you even have the evidence.”
 
Me? I have gobs of evidence. I’m reluctant to post a large amount of links because the last time I did that Tom disappeared and his articles were erased. That cost me time I’ll never get back, which is why I encourage Tom (and anyone else) to join Skeptics. Nothing gets erased there.
 
“The six million is an estimate.”
 
Agreed.
 
“And it is not the same to make somebody concede an error”
 
Which Tom will never do.
 
“and to make somebody acknowledge that he has no proof. The last point is irrelevant.”
 
No, because it forces Tom (and others like him) to acknowledge the contradictions in their belief system. It’s all well and good to believe something, it’s quite another to prove it.
 
“We often don't have proofs for our positions.”
 
Well, I do because we are talking about a historical event. The Nazis left records, we have their statements, witness statements and survivor statements. We have physical evidence. So, in order to contradict that Tom needs to show proof of his version of history. Which he does not have.
 
“That in itself does not make people rethink their position. It only weakens their confidence. You need to force down a mistake after the other to change a mind.”
 
You are not going to change Tom’s mind, he is a committed believer. The only people you can change are those that don’t have Tom’s fanatical belief system.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 3:25pm
Does my writing appear "fanatical".  I don't think so.
 
There are gobs of proof in all the material and resources I share.  In most cases, it's what's missing that constitutes the evidence....as I've pointed out in the article but is conveniently ignored.  Here's another discussion I stumbled upon on the Zyklon Bologne:  Holocaust Hoax Exposed
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 3:43pm
@Tom Purcell:
”Does my writing appear "fanatical". I don't think so.”
 
It looks that way.  

“There are gobs of proof in all the material and resources I share.”
 
Really?  No, not so much.
 
“In most cases, it's what's missing that constitutes the evidence....”
 
What’s missing as it doesn’t exist or help you in any way?
 
“as I've pointed out in the article but is conveniently ignored.”
 
No, you’ve only looked at a part of the camp, Tom.  There were three main Auschwitz camps.  The amenities you describe only existed at Auschwitz I, not in Birkenau or Monowitz.
 
“Here's another discussion I stumbled upon on the Zyklon Bologne: Holocaust Hoax Exposed”
 
LOL
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 13, 2017 - 3:44pm
Jeff: This thread is not even followed by anybody but the four of us. You put out a history book for yourself.
 
Good, you are the one qualified to do that as you are Jewish.
Are you suggesting others should not weigh in on antisemitism if they are not Jewish? The heck, one does not need your diploma to speak up.
 
I can also differ primary and secondary sources obviously. And you came up with a wrong door that completely derailed me.
 
Now, you go into snowflake mode. The sentences with bullying were obviously jokes. I doubled down because of your whining.
 
I tell you your opinion of what I do is irrelevant.
No wonder that nobody changes his opinion for you. You don't do anybody the favour either.
 
Tom isn’t going to admit that he is wrong, period.
Tom acknowledged that his door picture was not fitting (for wrong reasons - but the heck who cares?). He did not admit on the following simple truths that I tried to pin him down on (again derailed). So your clairvoyance falls short. You don't know what people will do.
 
No, because it forces Tom (and others like him) to acknowledge the contradictions
No, it doesn't. Not having an evidence does not result in the realization of a contradiction. That's my whole contention. 
 
Um, no, six million were not gassed. Was that a typo on your part?
Yes, see earlier comments where I was more specific!
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 3:48pm
Lol - look at the two fags bicker!
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 13, 2017 - 3:53pm
Shut up, Pussell!
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 4:14pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
”Jeff: This thread is not even followed by anybody but the four of us. You put out a history book for yourself.”
 
So, the key to all of this is to act stupid.  Gotcha.

“Good, you are the one qualified to do that as you are Jewish.
Are you suggesting others should not weigh in on antisemitism if they are not Jewish? The heck, one does not need your diploma to speak up.”
 
You are more qualified to bat down Tom’s crap than I am where it comes to the theological stuff.  Of course I weigh in on antisemitism, I did a whole article on it and Islamaphobia.

“I can also differ primary and secondary sources obviously. And you came up with a wrong door that completely derailed me.”
 
No, I showed you an actual door identified as one belonging to a gas chamber.  How do I know that?  Because I study the subject.

“Now, you go into snowflake mode. The sentences with bullying were obviously jokes. I doubled down because of your whining.”
 
Sorry, I don’t do ❄️ mode, I’m not a Trump supporter.  
 
“I tell you your opinion of what I do is irrelevant.
No wonder that nobody changes his opinion for you. You don't do anybody the favour either.”
 
No, what I do is show evidence and share my knowledge with those who want it.  I do this with Tom and others like him to show them where they are wrong.  They simply do not acknowledge it but it counteracts them.  That is the point.

“Tom isn’t going to admit that he is wrong, period.
Tom acknowledged that his door picture was not fitting (for wrong reasons - but the heck who cares?).”
 
So, you think getting Tom to squirm out from his original assertion but still qualify it, that was a win?
 
“He did not admit on the following simple truths that I tried to pin him down on (again derailed).”
 
Oh, gee, sorry.  Do you want me to stop commenting so that you can continue to contest the door?
 
(SARCASM ALERT)
 
“So your clairvoyance falls short. You don't know what people will do.”
 
I’ve done this enough to know how this winds up in the end.  I’ve chased deniers up and down the comment sections of blogs, forums and websites.  They duck away or change the subject.

“No, because it forces Tom (and others like him) to acknowledge the contradictions
No, it doesn't. Not having an evidence does not result in the realization of a contradiction. That's my whole contention.”
 
So, what’s the plan here?  Do you want to continue to discuss the door?  Do you think forcing Tom to admit whatever you want him to admit to is going to make him have an epiphany?  A conversion?  Make him start going to the synagogue and joining the fight to combat deniers on-line?  Adopt a Jewish orphan?  Convert himself?  Take a pilgrimage to Yad Vashem?

“Um, no, six million were not gassed. Was that a typo on your part?
Yes, see earlier comments where I was more specific!”
 
Good, I’m glad we cleared that up.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 4:15pm
Seems like y'all are having a falling out and, I didn't even know the two of you were a thing! 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 4:17pm
@Tom Purcell:
”Lol - look at the two fags bicker!”
 
Now, that’s getting a little personal, Tom.  Is this what you are going to do in order to distract from your shortcomings?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 4:23pm
It was a fitting jab based on the exchange between you two.   :)   What shortcomings do you perceive?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 4:25pm
@Tom Purcell
”It was a fitting jab based on the exchange between you two. :)”
 
Calling someone a fag is a fitting jab?  What are you, 12?
 
“What shortcomings do you perceive?”
 
Your shortcomings are that you really don’t know anything about the subject, except what you copy from places like YouTube.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 4:29pm
Wishful thinking.  That's like saying "places like the world wide web" or "places like the library".  It's a matter of accessibility and familiarity for readers.  YouTube has it's faults in censorship, in fact it can be awfully Zionistic, but individual producers are on YouTube, not like with the Hollywood gangsters..
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 4:37pm
@Tom Purcell:
“It's a matter of accessibility and familiarity for readers. YouTube has it's faults in censorship, in fact it can be awfully Zionistic, but individual producers are on YouTube, not like with the Hollywood gangsters..”
 
YouTube is not a place to learn history, Tom.  Any idiot can post videos to YouTube.
 
I’ve given links to websites with real research.  I can also make suggestions for books.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 13, 2017 - 4:38pm
Jeff: You came up with the wrong door. It did not help at all in discussing the door in the article.
 
No, what I do is show evidence and share my knowledge with those who want it.  I do this with Tom and others like him to show them where they are wrong.  They simply do not acknowledge it but it counteracts them.
Tom et al want your evidence and 'knowledge', yet they do not acknowledge it, the stuff they want. Liberal logic right there.
 
So, you think getting Tom to squirm out from his original assertion but still qualify it, that was a win?
I doubt that this is English, but, yes, getting Tom away from his position would help. A pity nobody followed up.
 
They duck away or change the subject.
That's my whole contention. You let them. You do it wrong. But you are above my advise anyway.
 
Do you think forcing Tom to admit whatever you want him to admit to is going to make him have an epiphany? ...
Yes. It does work. You can talk people out of crap. I did it a couple of times.
 
Sorry that I talked about the door which was the only relevant part in the article that had to do with the actual killing. I'm really sorry that I focused on it and did not jump from swimming pool to daycare center or whatever. I felt the gas chamber was more relevant. But then again, I'm not a serene historian, only a Jew.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 4:41pm
Come off that perch, Jeffrey.  I've listed at least a dozen books for people, not to mention credible websites.  YouTube isn't automatically  discreditable.  It's a medium, not a source.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 4:42pm
"But then again, I'm not a serene historian, only a Jew."
 
Goldstein is finally beginning to learn his place on WB.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 4:58pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
”Jeff: You came up with the wrong door. It did not help at all in discussing the door in the article.”
 
Oh, FFS.
Benjamin, Tom posted a door.  I posted a door Pressac identitified as belonging to a gas chamber.  My door is the relevant door.  Pressac had doubts about the door Tom posted.  
Why are you persisting on grinding on this?

“No, what I do is show evidence and share my knowledge with those who want it. I do this with Tom and others like him to show them where they are wrong. They simply do not acknowledge it but it counteracts them.
Tom et al want your evidence and 'knowledge', yet they do not acknowledge it, the stuff they want. Liberal logic right there.”
 
So, we are going to toss politics into a completely different subject.  I’m not interested, I’m tired of politics.

“So, you think getting Tom to squirm out from his original assertion but still qualify it, that was a win?
I doubt that this is English, but, yes, getting Tom away from his position would help. A pity nobody followed up.”
 
No, because Tom will change the subject.  I know this because I’ve interacted with him on multiple occasions, just like every denier I’ve dealt with on-line.  Do you think this is the first time Tom and I have corresponded????  No, Tom was a previous member and then left.

“They duck away or change the subject.
That's my whole contention. You let them. You do it wrong. But you are above my advise anyway.”
 
I don’t “let them.”  They do it anyway.

“Do you think forcing Tom to admit whatever you want him to admit to is going to make him have an epiphany? ...
Yes. It does work. You can talk people out of crap. I did it a couple of times.”
 
A couple.  So, you are the expert on getting people to change their world view.  Good to know.


“Sorry that I talked about the door which was the only relevant part in the article that had to do with the actual killing. I'm really sorry that I focused on it and did not jump from swimming pool to daycare center or whatever. I felt the gas chamber was more relevant. But then again, I'm not a serene historian, only a Jew.”
 
You can talk about the door all you want, who’s stopping you?  
Oh, the last comment?  Please.  Don’t be such a ❄️.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:06pm
A couple is more than none. Your record is that you have not converted one antisemite, not one holocaust denier. I did not even have to go down the holocaust history stuff to make an Arab rethink the issue. We are friends now.
 
Your door is not relevant to anything. The whole idea of a debate is to change the position of another person and not just to show pictures of things the person does not believe anyway. The door relevant to Tom's idea, the leaky shabby door in the article, was not your door. Your door had nothing to do with what Tom thought. You were cross talking. Can you admit that you were crosstalking?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:09pm
@Tom Purcell:
”Come off that perch, Jeffrey.”
 
Well, I deserve it as I know more about this than you do.
 
“I've listed at least a dozen books for people, not to mention credible websites.”
 
Rense is a credible website?  LOL
Well, it’s not as funny as whale.....
 
“YouTube isn't automatically discreditable. It's a medium, not a source.”
 
Yeah, it is.  
I saw a rather funny video some time ago, some moron wanted to show that ZB wasn’t dangerous.  He and two other people pretended to lock him in a shed with something they claimed was ZB.  Even other deniers called horse shit on that one.

Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 4:42pm
Unfollow Me
"But then again, I'm not a serene historian, only a Jew."

“Goldstein is finally beginning to learn his place on WB.”
 
I always enjoy it when you default to antisemitic mode.  It makes you even less credible.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:14pm
Jeff: Can you admit that you were crosstalking?  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:15pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
 
Well, congratulations.  Your continuing blither blather has actually pissed me off to the point that I no longer give a fuck about anything you post.
 
So, go back to your door, Benjamin.  Have at it.  Tom and I can continue our conversation, if he chooses to answer you that is his affair.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:17pm
I always knew that liberals and Nazis are close.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:19pm
Wow, over a door????
LOL
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:23pm
It’s funny, John G calls me a Zionist troll and an enabler of genocide by the Israeli State, Benjamin calls me a Nazi because I am a liberal and I posted a picture of a door.
 
Seriously, I can’t win.  I’m either a Nazi or a Zionist troll enabler of genocide.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:25pm
Tom, do you think I’m a Nazi?  I ask because I am confused.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:26pm
It's possible that the line could one day be drawn so boldly. 
 
But it kinda makes me frown that Jewey Kelly and Benji Jewstein broke up.  Y'all were so cute together.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:28pm
Tom and I can continue our conversation, if he chooses to answer you that is his affair.
I don't want you lovers be distracted by the gas chamber and the only thing in the article that had something to do with the actual killing. Enjoy your honeymoon.
PS: John G is no measure for anything.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:29pm
Tom, no tangents.  Get back to the door before Benjamin calls you a liberal.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:30pm
Benjamin, cut the crap.  Tom is waiting for more arguments on the door.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:30pm
Gee I hope I don't lose sleep over what the Jew thinks of me.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:32pm
Tom is a sissy and a liberal. I will never understand how he could vote for Trump when Hitlery was available. Good night.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:36pm
Now, Tom and Benjamin, your insults lack originality.
 
Tom, calling someone a “fag” and implying things about someone’s sexuality is really juvenile.  A 12-year-old does that.
 
Benjamin, bouncing your insults off of Tom’s juvenile behavior is boring.  Now, you get points for originality for calling me a Nazi (I did NAZI see that coming, get it???) but you lose points by trying to one up Tom with the honeymoon bit.
 
Dull, dull.  If we are going to degenerate into juvenile behavior I expect better.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:39pm
Ah, good one, Benjamin!!!!  See, that’s the spirit!!!!  
Oh, wait, I think I called the liberal thing. Damn.  Oh, well.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:44pm
I do find it odd that Benjamin likes Trump.  The last time an authoritarian type like Trump hijacked a Democratic country it really sucked for Jews.....and well, everyone.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 13, 2017 - 5:48pm
Maybe Benjamin doesn’t care because Trump doesn’t like Muslims.  That’s a strong possibility.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 14, 2017 - 11:00am
You know, Jeff. My contention with you runs much deeper than 'the door'. I seriously question your motivation.
 
Tom at least admits that he was driven by some morbid fascination to the topic. I have no doubt that you are motivated by the very same thing. Only difference: Tom's fascination is coupled with some healthy revulsion that drove him into his stupid conspiracy theories.
 
You are just a creep. I don't believe for a  minute that you care about the victims. You hide behind your virtue signalling. And the fact that you don't even try to convince people of anything gives you away. You also don't want to sway less involved people. You go to holocaust denier forums where there are no such people. Your motivation is a perversion.
 
And BTW your avatar looks as morbid as fuck.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 14, 2017 - 11:38am
@Benjamin Goldstein:
”You know, Jeff. My contention with you runs much deeper than 'the door'. I seriously question your motivation.”
 
Let me help you with this, Benjamin.  I don’t give a fuck about what you think about me or what your opinion of me is.  It’s really irrelevant.  I will continue to post what I want, how I want and when I want.

“Tom at least admits that he was driven by some morbid fascination to the topic. I have no doubt that you are motivated by the very same thing. Only difference: Tom's fascination is coupled with some healthy revulsion that drove him into his stupid conspiracy theories.”
 
LOL, so, you actually appreciate Tom, a Holocaust denier, over someone who is not.  That’s fucked up, Benjamin.
 
Not that it matters but no, this has nothing to do with any type of morbid fascination.  This is just an outgrowth of my interest in history, in particular European history.  I’ve recently expanded my interest, I picked up a book on the history of Prussia.  I recently finished an excellent book on the Russian Revolution.
 
Why?  Because the Holocaust is not my only focus.  I studied many aspects of history before I got into this and many since then.


“You are just a creep.”
 
Gee, fuck you too, Benjamin.
 
Wow, I’m getting ready to be psychoanalyzed by someone who doesn’t know a fucking thing about me, other than what they’ve read from me in a comment section.  I’m sure this will be fascinating....and really off-base.
 
“I don't believe for a minute that you care about the victims.”
 
Wrong.  
 
Much of the driving motivation behind this is my outrage over deniers pissing all over victims of a tragedy.  If you read the things that I have.....the agony of mothers who watched their children die in camps and Ghettos, the pain of the victims who struggled to climb out of pits where they were buried alive, the agony of those who made impossible choices, the prayers of the men who buried their families.....there is no way to communicate how I feel, other than disgust and outrage that humans suffered these indignities.  That extends to those who piss on their memories.  
 
So, fuck you, Benjamin.  You don’t know me, you don’t know who I am or what I feel about any and all of this.
 
“You hide behind your virtue signalling.”
 
Gee, more psychoanalysis.  
 
“And the fact that you don't even try to convince people of anything gives you away.”
 
No, it’s the fact that I know people like Tom.
 
See, I started off trying to convince them.  I gave them documents...they claimed forgeries.  I have gave them eyewitness testimony....it was all lies.  
 
So, take your shot, Benjamin.  People like Tom already have their arguments lined up and ready.
 
I don’t really do this for them anymore.  I do this for those who stumble across what Tom wrote.  I do this for those who stumble across their blogs and forums.  I do this to exchange information and to receive it.
 
“You also don't want to sway less involved people.”
 
LOL, click my name, Benjamin.  My first few articles that I wrote dealt with this subject.  Why do you think I wrote them?
 
“You go to holocaust denier forums where there are no such people.”
 
I go there because they are public forums.  I go there to provide a dissenting voice and give those who stumble across them a place to find information.
 
Truth be told, those type of forums are a dying breed.  The new breed of Holocaust deniers, like Tom, lack the basic knowledge to do well, they prefer places like YouTube.
 
“Your motivation is a perversion.”
 
Well, that’s your opinion and opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

“And BTW your avatar looks as morbid as fuck.”
 
Wow, you don’t like my avatar.  I’m.....hurt.
 
LOL LOL
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 14, 2017 - 12:00pm
Boys, boys,
 
Don't fight over me.  As much as I enjoy it, it's a distraction from the greatest lie ever told.  Nothing in my articles or comments have been invalidated, or even effectively challenged. 
 
I encourage all readers to do their own research on the matter.  'The Reinhardt Death Camps' stuff has been debunked, by the way Jeffrey.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 14, 2017 - 12:17pm
@Tom Purcell:
”Don't fight over me. As much as I enjoy it, it's a distraction from the greatest lie ever told.”
 
Wow, I never thought of it that way but Holocaust denial is the greatest lie ever told....thanks for the clarification.
 
“Nothing in my articles or comments have been invalidated, or even effectively challenged.”
 
LOL, sure.
 
Tom, where was the brothel, the swimming pool and the library located at Auschwitz?  Where was the camp hospital?

“I encourage all readers to do their own research on the matter.”
 
They certainly shouldn’t get it from you.
 
“'The Reinhardt Death Camps' stuff has been debunked, by the way Jeffrey.”
 
Who?  By you?  LOL
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 14, 2017 - 12:19pm
Tom: The only contention you have on the existance of the gas chamber in this article is the leaky, shabby door thing. You admitted that you don't believe the picture is right. If you could admit that the doors that are actually attributed to gas chambers don't support your argument, your idea has fallen apart. You can then argue against the existance of gas chambers with a different set of arguments (under different articles).
 
Jeff: You can post what you want. I'm not an authoritarian liberal trying to deplatform you.
 
Yeah, and you are also fascinated with military history as a pacifist. My assumption is sooooo far fetched. Truth be told. I can't read your mind. And I am a bit unfair here, but so are you. You also read my mind. The difference is that I base my assumption on things that you wrote while you just assume that Jews 'don't like Muslims'. I probably have more Muslim friends than you have Muslim contacts. I live in Germany, surrounded by Muslims.
 
I don’t really do this for them anymore.  I do this for those who stumble across what Tom wrote.
Oh year, for all those who stumble into the denier forums that you visit. Gazillions.
 
Why do you think I wrote them?
Morbid fascination and virtue signalling to cover it up.
 
so, you actually appreciate Tom, a Holocaust denier, over someone who is not.
To some extend, yes. I don't know your position on modern antisemitism and the persecuation of Jews and Christians across the Middle East. Maybe you are worse than Tom. Maybe not.
 
It's also pathetic how you try to capitalize on your failures. No, the problem with your unconvincing tactics is not 'people like tom'. When it comes to holocaust denial I could talk two people out of it so far, a man and a woman. That was easy because it was offline and I just had to talk family and stuff. So I did not go into the typical holocaust debate so far, but I know that deniers are capable of changing their minds. I doubt that you even try or care to try. And holocaust denial would not even be an issue if it was not piggybacked with the much more dangerous conspiracy theories.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 14, 2017 - 12:20pm
..chambers... I make spellies
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 14, 2017 - 12:23pm
I have changed my mind.
 
I started out ignorant just like the two of you and so many innocent others.   But I learned to think critically, to reflect and contemplate, to research objectively, and so on.
 
I don't hate you guys for believing everything you're told.  But it's amusing to listen to Gurionstein spout off about what I have and have not admitted.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 14, 2017 - 12:29pm
it's amusing to listen to Gurionstein spout off about what I have and have not admitted.
If you have a weak memory. Scroll up.
 
You wrote:
The door in the image captioned 'Wooden door to gas chamber' , might have been the door to the showers, but such a slatted wooden door would not hold up to 2000 people trying to survive being gassed to death.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 14, 2017 - 12:30pm
Maybe instead of 'gas chamber', it would please you if it read, "alleged gas chamber" - which were actually showers.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 14, 2017 - 12:40pm
Purcell: I would like to know what even your assertion is. I think this is probably why I get so tiered about topic hopping.  You don't belief that there were gas chambers. How does your reasoning in the article support that belief? What is the alternative? Showers were mistaken for gas chambers? Were they mistaken by accident? Do the rooms that people visit even look like showers? Do people visit different rooms yet the doors that are said to go to gas chambers belonged to showers ...? I can't even .... what is the idea that we are talking about?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 14, 2017 - 12:42pm
Ok imbecile,
 
Why wouldn't there be both gas chambers and showers?  Both were in fact part of the hygiene protocol at concentration camps, along with haircuts. 
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 14, 2017 - 12:44pm
Gas chambers were used to save Jews from death, not put them to it.  Zyklon B was, and still is used as insecticide. 
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 14, 2017 - 12:49pm
I've heard before that Jews don't have the ability think abstractly and I'm finding that to be stereotypically true in Goldstein's case.  It's more about cremation than killing, dumbass. 
 
It would not take very long to kill six million unarmed people, but to dispose of the bodies is another story.  You have to be able to think on multiple levels so perhaps this kind of study is not for the average Jew.   ;)
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 14, 2017 - 12:57pm
Jews were saved with Zyklon B. Gas chambers rescued Jews. If this is abstract thinking, I'm proud not to have it.
 
Jeff, take over. I unsubscribe from the email messages about this article. You can show him your fetish photos now.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 14, 2017 - 12:59pm
BTW check mate
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 14, 2017 - 1:28pm
@Benjamin Goldstein:
”Jeff: You can post what you want. I'm not an authoritarian liberal trying to deplatform you.”
 
Gee, thanks.  Your permission is as irrelevant as the rest of your opinions.
 

“Yeah, and you are also fascinated with military history as a pacifist.”
 
Yes.  Why is that so unbelievable?  War shapes history to an enormous degree, war also stimulates innovation and invention.  That’s reality.  I also admit to a fascination with tactics and how new inventions like the tank and airplane shaped said tactics.  
 
That doesn’t mean I want war and conflict, in fact, reading about it makes me want it less.  People who don’t know anything about it glorify war, I don’t because I understand what it means.
 
“My assumption is sooooo far fetched.”
 
Yes, because you don’t know a fucking thing about me.  How much plainer do I need to be?
 
“Truth be told. I can't read your mind. And I am a bit unfair here,”
 
Yes, you are.  
 
“but so are you. You also read my mind. The difference is that I base my assumption on things that you wrote while you just assume that Jews 'don't like Muslims'.”
 
Actually, I was just messing with you.  I made the same illogical jumps you did, only I did it ironically.
 
“I probably have more Muslim friends than you have Muslim contacts. I live in Germany, surrounded by Muslims.”
 
Wrong.  Again.
 
I work with Muslims, interact with them, eat with them.  They are good people, which means that the anti-Islamic horse shit I see now bothers me a great deal.  Islam, like Judaism, is a religion.  Clarity comes with understanding that.

“I don’t really do this for them anymore. I do this for those who stumble across what Tom wrote.
Oh year, for all those who stumble into the denier forums that you visit. Gazillions.”
 
More like dozens.  How many views has Tom’s article gotten, Benjamin?  Look up top.

“Why do you think I wrote them?
Morbid fascination and virtue signalling to cover it up.”
 
LOL, wow, still psychoanalyzing me.  You are wrong, again because you don’t know a fucking thing about me.

“so, you actually appreciate Tom, a Holocaust denier, over someone who is not.
To some extend, yes.”
 
Are you fucking kidding me?  
 
“I don't know your position on modern antisemitism and the persecuation of Jews and Christians across the Middle East. Maybe you are worse than Tom. Maybe not.”
 
http://writerbeat.com/articles/17209-I-Don-t-Think-I-ll-Ever-Understand-it-and-I-m-Glad-I-Don-t-

“It's also pathetic how you try to capitalize on your failures.”
 
LOL, chuckles, I’ve been up and down the internet.  I’ve spoken to weirdos of every stripe.  The one thing I’ve learned is that “true believers” of any kind is that they are extremely hard to convince.  Not just me, I’ve watched people, highly qualified people, run over the same ground time and again with deniers, some who know less than Tom, others who have a stronger knowledge of this subject than Tom ever will.
 
The problem is that “true believers” have a root, a core that you cannot shake.  Most of the cases I’ve seen, the denier in question built on some sort of antisemitism (or some other type of prejudice) that was already prevalent that they’ve nursed on for years.  Most deniers also have a strong bent for conspiracy theories, for example not all deniers are “9-11 Truthers” but many of them are.  I first learned of “9-11 Truthers” through a denier.  Even many of the arguments are the same, it’s just changing the names of the players.
 
So, if you think you have mad skills to “convert” someone you are sadly mistaken.
 
“No, the problem with your unconvincing tactics is not 'people like tom'. When it comes to holocaust denial I could talk two people out of it so far, a man and a woman.”
 
Good for you.  I’ve known five.  Two I’ve known personally.  You know what was different?  Those people did the research, real research.  One of them was one of the most talented researchers I’ve ever seen, the other was a rather disturbed young man who made some rather famous denier videos.
 
What changed?  Well, for the talented one it was the extraordinary amount of research he did that swung it.  He recognized that denial had
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 14, 2017 - 1:29pm
Cont...
No basis in reality.  The other one changed after being shown the inherent contradiction of his position.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 14, 2017 - 1:30pm
Look, Benjamin is a coward.  He runs.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 14, 2017 - 1:32pm
Well, this has been fun.
 
Tom, I’ve got stuff to do, like actual work.  We will revisit this more later.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 14, 2017 - 2:06pm
I feel kinda bad for the Jew.  I mean, it's not really his fault that he has a parasitic nature (is it?), and he's seemingly unaware of it.   This thread might have been a lesson hard-learned for this particular Goldstein, but he's probably gonna hate this particular gentile more than most. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 14, 2017 - 2:15pm
Actually, Tom, for some weird ass reason he apparently hates me more than he could hate you.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 14, 2017 - 2:30pm
That's a bad Shabbos Goy!
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 14, 2017 - 2:36pm
LOL
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 14, 2017 - 2:36pm
Well, Tom, we can continue here in a bit. I’m going to be busy for the rest of the dayZ
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 14, 2017 - 2:37pm
*day.
Edward Miessner Added Nov 14, 2017 - 5:17pm
I've been away for 24 hours and look what happened! And Tom has nothing to say about what I dragged up about Dwight D. "I like Ike" Eisenhower. War always bring out the worst in people. So does totalitarianism.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 14, 2017 - 5:21pm
Sorry, Edward.  Goldstein took this thing off the rails.  We understand, he might have hallucinated and imagined himself aboard a train 'heading east'.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 14, 2017 - 6:01pm
My apologies as well, Edward.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 14, 2017 - 11:06pm
@Tom Purcell
”They invaded Poland - with just cause”
LOL, they did?????

“The atrocities committed against ethnic Germans in the established Polish territory granted in the Versailles Treaty is what actually started the conflict.”
 
Tell me, if this is so and Hitler was so concerned with his kinsman, why were relations between Poland and Nazi Germany rather good in the 1930’s? Why was one of the first treaties Hitler signed was with Poland?
 
The Weimar Republic griped more about the treatment of ethnic Germans than Hitler did before the Spring/Summer of 1939.
 
There were no atrocities pre-war, Tom. The Germans in Poland faced petty discrimination but so did Jews, Ukrainians and Belorussians living in Polish territory. Do you have any complaints about them, Tom? Or is your concern only for Germans?
 
Now, after the German invasion Poles committed atrocities against ethnic Germans....and Goebbels dutifully blew it out of proportion for propaganda purposes.
 
“Initially, Germany just wanted the land and people back that were stolen by the said treaty.”
 
Technically Danzig and the corridor originally belonged to the Kingdom of Poland and didn’t become part of Prussia until the Austrians, Prussians and Russians partitioned Poland between them in the 1700’s. So, really, the Poles were simply reasserting their original claim.
 
But, truly irrelevant. The Corridor belonged to Poland at that moment, it was theirs to negotiate or not negotiate over. Realistically they should have negotiated but after Hitler broke the Munich Agreement no one trusted him.
 
“WWII started only when France and England declared war on Germany.”
 
Because Germany attacked their ally....after repeated warnings that such an action would result in war.
Hitler didn’t believe Britain or France would declare war. Imagine his surprise when he turned up really wrong.
 
“Me: What about Herzl”
 
What about him?
“and the Balfour Declaration?”
 
Essentially the British White Paper published in 1939 said that in 10 years an independent Palestine would be formed and governed jointly by Jews and Arabs. It did not call for a partition into a separate Jewish or Palestinian States. It also severely limited Jewish ability to purchase land and set a limit on the number of new Jewish settlers to 75,000 over the next ten years.
 
It essentially abrogated the Balfour Declaration, which when it was published was designed to curry favor with Jews in Britain and the US for support during WW I. So, really, the Balfour Declaration had no meaning after 1939.
 
“Jew: So what! There was still a hollycost!
Me: But the "holocaust" claim has been made several times in recent centuries, see here are the documents.”
 
I’ll tell you what, Tom. I’ve been meaning to do it but why don’t you write an article on the Holocausts of yore?
 
“Jew: I saw Spielberg and Polanski's award winning Holocaust Epics! It happened. I saw black and white film reel. It was spooky and people were dead....so it happened you goy anti-Semite!”
 
Tom, you are an antisemite (correct spelling). Why would you shy away from that?
 
“All because I want truth and justice for all of the fallen in WWII, including the actual heroes in the Waffen SS and Wehrmacht.”
 
Yes, it is certainly heroic to shoot unarmed men, women and children (not just Jews). Not all of them did this, of course. But enough did.
 
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 15, 2017 - 10:25am
You're asking dumb questions, my friend.  And you're making foolish presumptions.  Superficially informed.  Too many docudramas and movies, it seems.  Perhaps the answer you seek reside in the absurdity of your question itself. 
 
e.g.  "Tell me, if this is so and Hitler was so concerned with his kinsman, why were relations between Poland and Nazi Germany rather good in the 1930’s? Why was one of the first treaties Hitler signed was with Poland?
 
The Weimar Republic griped more about the treatment of ethnic Germans than Hitler did before the Spring/Summer of 1939.
 
There were no atrocities pre-war, Tom. The Germans in Poland faced petty discrimination but so did Jews, Ukrainians and Belorussians living in Polish territory. Do you have any complaints about them, Tom? Or is your concern only for Germans?"
 
If you were a cross examiner, your client would bury his head in his hands as you addressed courtroom.  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 15, 2017 - 10:56am
@Tom Purcell:
”You're asking dumb questions, my friend.”
 
Why?  If Hitler “loved” his people so much, why would he sign a treaty with a country that is abusing them?  Why no fire and brimstone on their behalf?  Why no calls to the international community?
 
“And you're making foolish presumptions. Superficially informed.”
 
LOL, one thing I am not is superficially informed.
 
“Too many docudramas and movies, it seems.”
 
LOLX2, how many times do I have to tell you I don’t watch docudramas and movies?  
 
I repeat, there were no atrocities committed against the ethnic Germans in Poland before the war, Tom.  Never happened.  The atrocities occurred after the Germans invaded on September 1st, 1939.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 15, 2017 - 11:11am
You're full of it.  Thousands of Germans were being abused and killed while the Polish government did nothing, feeling it had big France and big England to stare Hitler down.  As we both know, it didn't work that way.
 
Thousands of Germans were under threat of violence and death in Poland when Hitler had no choice but to act.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 15, 2017 - 11:19am
@Tom Purcell:
”You're full of it.”
 
Yeah, I don’t think so.
 
“Thousands of Germans were being abused and killed while the Polish government did nothing, feeling it had big France and big England to stare Hitler down. As we both know, it didn't work that way.”
 
No, Tom.  But I’m sure that in whatever hell he is currently roasting in Dr. Goebbels appreciates the fact that his propaganda is still working almost 80 years later.

“Thousands of Germans were under threat of violence and death in Poland when Hitler had no choice but to act.”
 
No, Tom.  Hitler got pissed off that some third rate power like Poland defied him.  So, Goebbels cooked up some propaganda to give justification for invasion.  No one, outside of Germany (and apparently you) believed a word of it, because it was practically word-for-word for what the Germans claimed the Czechs were doing to the Germans in the Sudetenland.
 
See, while it is true that if you repeat a lie long enough people will believe it, you really need to wait for a bit before telling the same lie.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 15, 2017 - 12:01pm
"See, while it is true that if you repeat a lie long enough people will believe it, you really need to wait for a bit before telling the same lie."
 
Tell that to Hollywood.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 15, 2017 - 2:12pm
I don’t care about Hollywood.
Edward Miessner Added Nov 15, 2017 - 2:44pm
Tom, and those trains 'heading east' weren't destined for the Soviet Union's Jewish Autonomous Oblast, now were they? ;^)
 
No, they were all headed to the Nazis' concentration and extermination camps. And Roosevelt bombed not one railway siding leading thereto!
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 15, 2017 - 2:47pm
That's where Zion ought to be IMHO - Siberian wilderness.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 15, 2017 - 2:52pm
You didn’t answer Edward, Tom.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 15, 2017 - 2:55pm
I'm not on trial and I don't answer to Edward. 
 
Train cars full of political prisoners were shipped to and from east and west, and up and down the camp system.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 15, 2017 - 2:57pm
I shouldn't have to explain that, and my comment in jest about Goldstein's hallucination is not an isolated event.  There are/were thousands of paid "witnesses" to the holocaust and the vast majority of them are clearly full of gefilte fish.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 15, 2017 - 3:48pm
@Tom Purcell:
 
”Train cars full of political prisoners were shipped to and from east and west, and up and down the camp system.”
 
Millions of them?  Also, when are women and children political prisoners? Or old people?
 
Where are the records detailing these millions moving to and fro in the camp system?  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 15, 2017 - 3:49pm
@Tom Purcell:
 
”I shouldn't have to explain that, and my comment in jest about Goldstein's hallucination is not an isolated event. There are/were thousands of paid "witnesses" to the holocaust and the vast majority of them are clearly full of gefilte fish.”
 
Really?  Who paid them?  Do you have records of these transactions?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 15, 2017 - 4:04pm
Yup I have the records in a safety deposit box somewhere in Canada.  I've been sitting on 'em for 70 years just waiting for someone to ask.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 15, 2017 - 4:34pm
So, Tom, in other words you again lack proof.
 
Do you see why I can’t buy into Holocaust denial?  There’s a lot of guesswork and maybe’s, plus a lot of hemming and hawing.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 15, 2017 - 4:39pm
Well, I don't "buy in" to one particular narrative.  There have been dozens of claimants to the "holocaust" that have been proven frauds.  Even Elie Wiesel, Mr. Holocaust himself has been exposed as a liar.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 15, 2017 - 4:40pm
Incidentally, 'Night' by Elie Wiesel was the first holocaust book I read, back in high school.  I admired the old fool for years. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 15, 2017 - 4:41pm
@Tom Purcell:
”Even Elie Wiesel, Mr. Holocaust himself has been exposed as a liar.”
 
Really?  In what way?
 
Keep in mind I’ve never read “Night.”
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 15, 2017 - 4:52pm
It's creepy, dark, and hard to believe - 'Night'.  It's a helluva write, I'll say that, and awfully Jewey.  It's been over 20 years since I've read it but it left a mark.  As a compassionate, impressionable highschooler I was tender and ripe for his book.  I'm just glad I never lost interest and never stopped asking questions. 
 
I think some folks credit Weisel with the modern coining of the term "holocaust". 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 15, 2017 - 5:06pm
@Tom Purcell:
 
”I'm just glad I never lost interest and never stopped asking questions.”
 
Did you ever get any answers?

“I think some folks credit Weisel with the modern coining of the term "holocaust".”
 
They would be wrong, I’ve found references to it during the war. 
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 15, 2017 - 5:07pm
Good day, Jeffrey.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 15, 2017 - 5:28pm
LOL, have you grown tired of me, Tom?
 
Come, now.  It’s the end of a work day for me and I don’t feel like working anymore.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 15, 2017 - 5:49pm
I'm not your show pony.  Checkout 'Night' by Elie Wiesel for entertainment.  Before there was ever a Stephen King, there was Elie Wiesel. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 15, 2017 - 5:58pm
No, thank you.  
 
While witness testimony is useful it is only from a single point of view.  Any witness from the camps or from the outside only saw what they did by accident or what the SS allowed them to see.  The real key is what the SS themselves have to say and what the documents tell us.
 
You have to combine multiple points to come to a conclusion, Tom.  While “Night” is generally recommended (along with Primo Levi, who I understand is a better author) I avoid survivor memoirs.  Memories fade or become contaminated.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 15, 2017 - 6:00pm
Ok, then I'll recommend Talmudic scripture for your study.  Thanks for the discussion, at least. :)
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 15, 2017 - 6:01pm
Why?
A. Jones Added Nov 15, 2017 - 9:35pm
I don't play link-dodgeball though
 
A euphemism for, "I have no reputable sources for my beliefs."
 
Tell us something we didn't know, Captain Obvious.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 15, 2017 - 10:08pm
LOL, nice.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 11:23am
Sigh, yawn..
 
David Irving
Ernst Zundel
David Cole (a.k.a. David Stein)
Mark Hunter
 
The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein
Adolf Hitler - The Greatest Story Never Told (film banned in 22 nations)
The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer
Blood Red Snow by Gunter Koscherrek
Black Edelweiss by Johann Voss
 
These are a few titles/sources I can see from my desk in my office.  I have supplied readers with countless resources but it's a waste of time.  They simply discount sources as irrelevant or written/spoken by "deniers".  
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 11:24am
A. Jones,
 
Get your thumb out of your ass and contend the article, that you probably only skimmed over.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 16, 2017 - 11:45am
@Tom Purcell:
 
”Sigh, yawn..

David Irving”
 
No longer a denier.
 
“Ernst Zundel”
 
Not a writer or a historian, he was a publisher (though he did write some entertaining stuff on Nazi UFOs)

“David Cole (a.k.a. David Stein)”
 
No longer a denier, in fact, according to him he never was.

“Mark Hunter”
 
Who?

“The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein”
 
Not a denier, in fact, his parents were survivors.
 
“Adolf Hitler - The Greatest Story Never Told (film banned in 22 nations)”
 
LOL, put out by Red Ice.  I’ve left many a comment....
I’ve badgered him to tell me where he ripped off the scenes he spliced into the film.  I know I’ve seen them somewhere.

“The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sajer
Blood Red Snow by Gunter Koscherrek
Black Edelweiss by Johann Voss”
 
Yeah, don’t know who or what they are.

“These are a few titles/sources I can see from my desk in my office. I have supplied readers with countless resources but it's a waste of time. They simply discount sources as irrelevant or written/spoken by "deniers".  
 
Well, some of them are former deniers.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 11:48am
Hmm I didn't expect that response, Jeffrey.  This is why I don't play the link dodgeball stuff.  It's ridiculous, a waste.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 16, 2017 - 11:58am
Is there some sort of point to any of this, Tom?  I don’t see anything in your last comment that addresses anything I said.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 12:01pm
It's not a discussion, it's folks like yourself demanding I pitch so that you can swing for the fences at everything. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 16, 2017 - 12:41pm
Tom, we can’t have a discussion if you persist in ducking away.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 1:12pm
I read 'Night' by Eleizer Weisel from front to back.  It's a plain read, short sentences, simple words.  It's very well written, however, and a dark experience.  You'd enjoy it, I think.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 1:13pm
(read 'Night' front to back last night)
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 16, 2017 - 1:15pm
Why would I need to read that?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 1:19pm
Lol.  It's up to you.  Why?  'Night' is a major story for a lot of people, but it also illustrates the grandiose ideas that young people developed in places like Auschwitz, where Elie was encamped as a teen.
Edward Miessner Added Nov 16, 2017 - 1:44pm
Tom, "Train cars full of political prisoners were shipped to and from east and west, and up and down the camp system."
 
They were also stuffed full of untermenschen shipped to and between these camps for being overworked and in the end of it all exterminated. You should know these things but in your haste to deny the Holocaust keep your eyes wide shut to them.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 1:46pm
lol
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 16, 2017 - 1:48pm
@Tom Purcell:
 
”Lol. It's up to you. Why? 'Night' is a major story for a lot of people, but it also illustrates the grandiose ideas that young people developed in places like Auschwitz, where Elie was encamped as a teen.”
 
Well, really, the first question we need to ask ourselves is why Eli Weisel was encamped there.  Did he commit a crime, Tom?  Was he charged, given due process, convicted and sentenced?
 
As for reading him, nah.  I’ll stick with Pressac and Van Pelt.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 1:50pm
He was evacuated with many other Jews, and ended up spending time at Auschwitz.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 16, 2017 - 1:55pm
Evacuated?  Why?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 2:19pm
Law.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 16, 2017 - 2:35pm
What law?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 2:39pm
The NSDAP imposed limitations on the number of Jews allowed in preferred locales and occupations.  Allegedly, Eliezer Weisel was one of the expelled.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 16, 2017 - 2:49pm
What was the name of the law, Tom?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 2:50pm
Google it, IDK.  Fuck the Ashkenazim or something, probably.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 16, 2017 - 2:54pm
So, you say it was a law but you can’t tell me anything about it.  Do you know what year it was written?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 2:58pm
You know damn well there was anti-Jewish legislation in the 1930s.  Again, I'm not on trial.  I do not answer to you and if you keep making demands I'll just discontinue entertaining your comments.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 16, 2017 - 2:59pm
That legislation was for German Jews.  Was additional legislation written to cover foreign Jews?
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 3:02pm
Don't embarrass yourself.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 16, 2017 - 3:44pm
Oh, FFS, Tom, if you don’t know just ask.
 
Ghettos for Jews were first set up in Poland under an order issued by Reinhard Heydrich on September 21st, 1939:
http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%201984.pdf
 
This was never actually codified into law, neither were Ghettos set up in the USSR to hold local Jews.  This was done under the Gauleiters or Wehrmacht commanders assigned to each region.  This was done to corral these Jews and make use of their labor, each of these Ghettos were emptied in turn and their inhabitants murdered, except for certain valuable workers.
 
Romania and Hungary set up their own Ghettos.  The Romanians never allowed the Germans to take their Jews but the Hungarians bowed to German pressure...but only after German occupation in 1944.
 
There was never a “law” regarding these Jews, Tom.  Germany wanted the labor so they took it.  
 
No reason to be embarrassed, Tom.  I’m here to help where I can.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 5:54pm
You're the one to bring up Poland.  That's why I'm finished with you.  All the sudden we're talking about Poland now?  I'm bored with your spin.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 16, 2017 - 6:32pm
Tom, it’s just obvious, you don’t know what you are talking about.
Tom C. Purcell Added Nov 16, 2017 - 6:45pm
Is it?  Oh geez well, geez! 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 16, 2017 - 7:33pm
Good to see you acknowledge it.
Edward Miessner Added Nov 17, 2017 - 1:03pm
LOL all you want, Tom; it won't make the ugly truth go away. I'm done with you.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 18, 2017 - 11:59pm
I feel like I embarrassed Tom.  
 
Really, if he needs to know something all he needs to do is ask.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Nov 20, 2017 - 5:19pm
Tom?  Hello?  Nothing to add?
 
Do I need to start adding helpful information about Auschwitz?