Sexual Players and Inappropriate Advances.

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In light of the recent rash of allegations of inappropriate sexual behaviors of celebrities, I want to bring up an angle that the various talking heads are steering away from: How does promiscuity play into this issue?

 

Back in my oilpatch days, I was away from home a lot. I just needed a room to store some belongings and have a nice place to stay when I was in town. So I answered an ad in the newspaper of a “professional man” looking for roommates. He agreed to let me in his house, and I stayed there for three months before I got transferred. In this time, I probably spent one out three nights in my room, so I got a good look at the action going on in this house.

 

The man was a walking hormone. Hardly a day went by where he didn’t get laid. He was always bringing home a classy looking gal of some kind, anywhere between 20 to 50 years old. He would bring them home after work. He would bring them home after an hour or two at the local yuppy bar. Sometimes they would phone him for a quick roll. Sometimes he had three rolls in one day. I don’t think I saw the same woman twice.

 

I got to know this guy somewhat well. His technique varied for scoring. Sometimes he was quite direct; other times he was like a fisherman patiently and skillfully working his hook and line. I think it’s safe to say that these women were looking for casual sex before they encountered my roommate; he only needed to play a certain game to get them.

 

I have read several sociological studies that estimate that about 10% of the population is promiscuous. So the promiscuous can’t select sexual partners randomly for they are more likely to fail than to succeed. So there is a game that each partner needs to play: locality selection, appearance, body cues, verbal cues, tone and content of conversation, light touching, etc. all play a part in helping the promiscuous connect with each other. For example, when my roommate was direct (i.e. “do you want to f**k?”), he probably already knew she was going to say “yes”. Even so, sometimes he was wrong, which did not bother him as there were other women available.

 

So when I hear of celebrities being accused of inappropriate sexual behavior, I have to wonder how much of this behavior was part of the culture of the promiscuous trying to find each other out. “He touched my knee” may be a sexual advance, but this same fellow probably found this same cue worked quite well many times in the past. If he is rejected, he either moved in too fast or he didn’t read the signals properly about the woman’s availability for sex. Or maybe he was just playing a numbers game: touch enough knees in an evening will eventually find sex.      

 

If we still insist on calling this fellow a sexual predator, what do we call the women who accept the advances?

 

And if a woman puts herself in a position to be perceived to be promiscuous, should she not accept that she is going to get some sexual advances?

 

If the man accepts a rejection after making an advance, should we cast him in the same light as a rapist?

 

Of course, the politically correct people will pounce on my questions as being misogynistic, so let’s ask some questions in the other direction.

 

If we come to know a man as an effective player with women, should we not recognize that he is probably not giving full potential to his occupation?

 

Or should we not realize that sooner or later, he is going to do something to embarrass our organization, institution, or profession?

 

Or maybe he is setting himself up for an allegation (founded or unfounded) in the future? If so, does this not mean the man is somewhat lacking in good judgement?

 

In this world of free choice and consenting adults, maybe we should ask: Why do we consider a promiscuous lifestyle as a virtue?

Comments

Thomas Sutrina Added Nov 19, 2017 - 11:06am
Dave add power, money, and enablers you get Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein.  The enablers are not looking for willing players.  That is the point I am trying to make the enablers are not players so they do not know the rules that the home owner providing a room.  They snared people with other needs.  For these two men it was women that want a way to get in the door of a small club of entertainers.  Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein said or at least their enablers said they had that ability.  The enablers did not tell these women the cost of entry.  And both Bill and Harvey didn't care.
 
Take away the enablers and still power and money are a big draw because those with either one are gate keepers.  Again we see a desire to get through the gate results in taking a risk and the play doesn't care if he or she hurts another person.  
 
We have two groups of potential people that are accusers.  The ones taken advantage of and those that are willing to take the risk of fabricating a story to get through a gate.  The public is in no position to separate them and the enablers of political gain are not going to allow that level of scrutiny by even the media.
 
Judge Roy Moore has put a stake in the ground or red line.   He defined a test, a level of scrutiny on a specific allegation, the year book signature. The political have not stepped up to this test.  And the media is not reporting this failure.  
"Attorney and activist Gloria Allred’s repeated refusal to immediately release to the custody of an independent examiner the original copy of a yearbook at the center of national controversy proves that “what they have alleged is completely untrue,” senatorial candidate Roy Moore stated in an interview.

"The yearbook in question contains the only piece of physical evidence to be presented in the cases of numerous women who have gone public with stories alleging inappropriate conduct between Moore and teenage girls. Moore has strenuously denied the accusations."
Moore specifically pointed to the initials “D.A.” that appear after the signature on the yearbook to further demonstrate that the yearbook inscription and signature represent what he described as a forgery and “complete fabrication.”" http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/11/17/exclusive-roy-moore-gloria-allreds-refusal-to-release-yearbook-proves-allegations-are-completely-untrue/
 
I am including many of the Fox News programs.  
Thomas Sutrina Added Nov 19, 2017 - 11:11am
The divorce papers in the possession of the accuser was signed by district attorney Ray Moore decades ago.  And Ray tells us that his assistant at the time reviewed all the papers before or after Ray was not defined.  She initialled them 'DA'.   Proof one that any signature that would not be reviewed by the assistant is missing the DA.  This is a record search easily done.  Second an ink age test.  And third a comparison analysis by signature experts using signatures from the first record search including those with the DA. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Nov 19, 2017 - 11:19am
PS  in the article above are the year book signature and the divorce paper signature   http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/11/17/exclusive-roy-moore-gloria-allreds-refusal-to-release-yearbook-proves-allegations-are-completely-untrue/
Rusty Smith Added Nov 19, 2017 - 11:26am
Dave good points.  Anyone who watches old movies, even the classics is going to see behaviors that were considered normal and acceptable in the past, but are way off limits today.  
 
I rather doubt anyone who watches Gone With The Wind today would not agree that Clark Gable was a RAPIST who should have spent most of the rest of his life in prison, if judged by today's values but back then women swooned imagining someone like him would "sweep them off their feet".  
 
Today no self respecting woman wants to be swept off her feet, or at least they say so.  No....   All too often that's what many want but only by the right person, all others are perverts and would be rapists.
Leroy Added Nov 19, 2017 - 11:51am
You bring up several interesting points, Dave.  We have to thank Trump for starting the conversation.  He was largely correct when he said, "And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."  Of course, it is not every woman or even most women, but it is a substantial portion of women. 
 
I knew a guy similar to the one you describe.  He lived above my neighbors across the way.  They knew him in college.  His nickname in college was Bed'em Down Bob.  Other than his obsession with sex, he was a decent guy.  He went out on the prowl every night.  He was remarkably successful.  And he didn't bring home any ugly women.  They were all nice, classy looking women. 
 
 
He confided in me one day that if he went without sex for more than a couple of days, he thought he would die.  He was serious.
 
He invited the sister of my friend's sister's fiance out on a date.  She was repeatedly warned about his character.  She did went out with him anyway.  Women always think they can handle a guy like that.  He took her back to his apartment.  He tried to rape her.  She ran down the stairs and into the arm of my creepy roommate.  He immediately started feel her up.  Poor girl.  I knew another guy in high school who pretty much raped every girl he went out with.  Everybody knew his reputation.  Yet, they went out with him anyway.  He was a popular athlete.  Anyway, he met his karma.
 
Women shouldn't be treated that way.  I don't treat them that way.  We shouldn't blame the victim, but, if we are honest, sometimes the victims put themselves in harm's way.
 
 
 
 
Dino Manalis Added Nov 19, 2017 - 12:26pm
 Sexuality is a personal decision, some mature later than others, that's why teenagers shouldn't be rushed.  While some girls may have been entertained by Roy Moore and made them feel womanly, others were hurt by his aggressiveness.  That's why sex is not just a matter of personal satisfaction, but allow the person you're interested in to express his or her feelings before proceeding.
Katharine Otto Added Nov 19, 2017 - 1:14pm
Dave,
A well reasoned article.  Cultural values have shifted mightily in my lifetime, and I think both women and men are a little befuddled by it.  It's hard to distinguish between affectionate touching, for instance, and sexually suggestive touching.  Americans are more up-tight, I understand, than some Europeans.  Hollywood has always had an image of "loose morals."  What people do on screen leads viewers to wonder what they might do later.  And drugs and alcohol certainly play a role in the way people conduct themselves sexually. 
 
What surprises me is that people are suddenly so offended by it.  Maybe the current outrage will give more women (and children) the courage to stand up to the predators.  But it's always good policy not to put yourself in dangerous positions, if you don't want to be violated.  
Thomas Sutrina Added Nov 19, 2017 - 2:37pm
Not up to steam on all the Judge Ray Moore information.  The sexual allegations more and more seem to be purchased.  They are contrived by experienced trainers or 'bird dogs' that  worked for other Democrat party supporters and candidates.  Project Veritas has a great youtube video showing a trainer or manager of these black projects.  
 
OAN has a youtube of a broadcast:

Leigh Corfman said she spoke to Moore (14yrs old) from her phone in her bedroom. Her mother Nancy Wells said she did not have a phone. Breitbart.com 11/12 [I am from her era and I can not remember any friend or even knowing of a person with a personal phone, at best the parents has a bedroom phone.  Further in rural Alabama a 14 year old having a phone would be even less likely.] Mother said the paper contacted her to sell her story.  Lea has a history of drug abuse and bankrupts and at some point $40,000 in debt.

Debbie Gibson another accuser is an Obama supporter that worked for Hillary Clinton's campaign.  She took down picture with VP Bidden and support for Dug Jones.   Now why would she do that.  Maybe that would look suspicious.  Why didn't she have that put into the article.  Fox news 11/10
Dave Volek Added Nov 19, 2017 - 3:37pm
Thomas
 
I'm not going to comment on Roy Moore. I just don't know enough-->and there's only so much CNN and Foxx this Canadian can handle.
 
My ex-roommate, for all intensive purposes, was not a mover-and-shaker. He called himself an "account executive", but he made his living handling customer issues at a telephone company. Any woman who slept with him knew she was getting nothing else but a roll in the hay.
 
Celebrities, on the other hand, can leverage their influence an naive women into believing the sex will lead to something better career-wise--or perhaps not cut short a promising career. It's harder to say "no" to these guys than my ex-roommate.
 
Should we treat my ex-roommate differently than a sex-addicted celebrity? Hmmm. We should also realize that there are women who do throw themselves at celebrities, but probably would require a lot of skill for my ex-roommate to pick up. 
 
The danger with the way these allegations are coming forward, from what I see, is that every celebrity is susceptible to someone alleging inappropriate sexual conduct. Make the allegation, and the celebrity's work stops dead in its tracks.
 
Maybe this is the path the world needs to go on for the next decade. Those who aspire to fame and power have to realize that they cannot play the promiscuous game like my ex-roommate.
 
 
opher goodwin Added Nov 19, 2017 - 3:42pm
Interesting article Dave. It is like walking a tightrope. Misread the signals and you are in for trouble.
Dave Volek Added Nov 19, 2017 - 3:55pm
Rusty
 
I've been married five years, and I'm still confused about what my wife wants. Yesterday, I spent two hours entertaining the toddler to give my wife a break when she wanted me to leave so she could feed him. How was I supposed to figure that out? But I do my best!
 
All those classy ladies parading in and out of my ex-roommates bedroom: What do they really want? I don't know. Surely he was not their only one-night stand.
 
Leroy
Your story brings up again another mystery of what women really want. Is it an adrenaline rush to date a guy with a bad reputation?  Some guys like to drive way too fast, maybe that's a female way of doing the same thing.
 
But I do have an issue of feminists who think they can play the promiscuous game up until they get to the edge of the cliff--and then call it off. Don't play the game! PERIOD! But that is not politically correct, isn't it?
 
I don't believe my ex-roommate would take things to a rape situation. But not all players are like that.
 
Katherine
I have interaction with lots of female students and we do get into each other's physical bubble on occasion. I just conduct myself with "no touching" whatsoever. If a slight brush does happen, my reputation will overlook the incident as an accident and possible allegations should not go far.  
 
George N Romey Added Nov 19, 2017 - 4:31pm
Men with power and money have probably been exhibiting this kind of behavior since the dawn of time. At one time at least in Hollywood it was just accepted and never discussed. We’ve come a long way from the 70s in which casual sex was considered a good thing,
Dave Volek Added Nov 19, 2017 - 6:21pm
George
I don't think we should stereotype in this case. There are powerful and influential people who can keep their sex drive under control. My ex-roommate was not a mover-and-shaker---except maybe with some of the ladies.
Tubularsock Added Nov 19, 2017 - 6:36pm
Interesting topic Dave. Tubularsock would say that your roommate with his charms was able to find women who were interested and they MUTUALLY enjoyed each other.
 
So be it.
 
If you want to play that game as long as “NO” doesn’t come up and they are consenting ADULTS then it’s mutually accepted.
 
The problem is when you corner some women in a hallway and master bate in front of her WITHOUT HER EXPRESSED PERMISSION.
 
Or you force yourself on her ....... that is rape.
 
Or you drug her and rape her.
 
Tubularsock doesn’t see any confusion here. It is rather clear.
Consent is consent and NO is NO.
 
Your roommate had a promiscuous lifestyle and it worked.
 
Rather empty in terms of intimacy and love but they were adults after all so they make their own decisions.
Dave Volek Added Nov 19, 2017 - 7:08pm
Tubursock
I think you missed my point. Often there is a fine line between consent of the promiscuous and an unwanted sexual advance. Often the promiscuous don't read the signals properly and make the wrong move at the wrong time. Even if they back off, that move puts them into a grey area that, in these days, can get them into trouble.
 
If a player puts a hand on a knee to test out the sexual readiness, that is a cue to move forward for some and an unwanted advance for others. The rules are not cut-and-dry.
 
Male celebrities have women throwing themselves at them. These guys can get laid quite easily without having to put as much effort and skill as my ex-roommate. And such easy sex creates a different kind of psyche for these celebrities, especially if there doesn't seem to be much consequence because of their fame. Not that that is an excuse, but maybe the famous and powerful need to be running at a higher moral "modus operandi" than my ex-roommate.
 
 
 
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Nov 20, 2017 - 12:48am
The Puritan reflux, er, reflex is alive and well in North America. 
Leroy Added Nov 20, 2017 - 7:35am
Well, Captain, I have to say it is nice in Asia where the women are still women.  They don't bite your head off for complimenting them.
John Minehan Added Nov 20, 2017 - 8:18am
"If we come to know a man as an effective player with women, should we not recognize that he is probably not giving full potential to his occupation?
 
Or should we not realize that sooner or later, he is going to do something to embarrass our organization, institution, or profession?"
 
Interesting question!
 
I think the latter will more often be the problem. 
 
Say the man is in sales (or some other field that puts a premium on persuading people).  Wouldn't the behavior you are talking about almost constitute professional development or training, if you think about it?
 
The latter situation seems to be more likely, especially now.
 
Before a few months ago, I would have said the issue turned on organizational culture.  Something that might not be acceptable at a "White Shoe Law Firm" or a major consultancy might pass muster in advertising or in the arts of entertainment industry.
 
For example, Warren Beatty once said that, when he was single, he often greeted single, attractive women he met by saying, "Hey Baby, wanna . . . ."  (He put a similar scène in his 1974 film  Shampoo, although he gave the line to the late Carrie Fisher, who played the 17 year old daughter of a woman whose hair . . . and other things . . . Beatty's character, George, was doing.) 
 
Beatty is quoted as saying that making that introduction, "got me slapped a lot . . . but it got me laid a lot too."
 
Contrast that with the recent imbroglio over the behavior of Harvey Weinstein. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Nov 20, 2017 - 8:35am
I have to say it is nice in Asia 
 
Yes it is. I could never live in the West again after 24 years here.
 
Simply Jews Added Nov 20, 2017 - 9:40am
Dave,
 
Good article that shows (with some comments going in the same direction) that we, the males, need some readjustment to the new times, and it's mostly to the good. Of course, there will be some percentage of unfair or untrue accusations on the way...
 
But in general, and especially when it comes to people who abuse their power or their wealth - the more of them get it in the neck, the merrier. Bless every woman that speaks up (of course when she  speaks the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth).
George N Romey Added Nov 20, 2017 - 10:03am
My hunch is that a lot of middle average Joes would like to grab at some woman.  If that average Joe was worth more money he'd probably would.  Money gives people confidence to do things a poorer person only dreams of doing.
Tubularsock Added Nov 20, 2017 - 11:06am
Well Dave, Tubularsock understands the “fine-line-theory". And it doesn’t line with up with the “yes-no-theory”.
 
If one in this position wants to play it safe you ask point blank ..... yes/no.
 
This also so goes with (and Tubularsock knows this is difficult to do) if the NO comes in the heat of passion! You back off, PERIOD!
 
If you want to put yourself into the risk position you go by “signals” ...... very chancy and the reward may be with strings attached with a lawyer by her side.
 
It all depends on whether you can THINK on your feet as well as on the floor and be in control of yourself.
 
If you can’t .......... well you reap what you sow meaning that actions have consequences. Good luck.
 
It is all in clear and open communication. If you aren’t adult enough to pull that off then you’ll ALWAYS be looking over your shoulder.
 
Bottom line, it has always worked for Tubularsock in these type of situations. And the rewards are just that with no strings.
Eileen de Bruin Added Nov 20, 2017 - 11:36am
Dave, I think that it must be very hard for any man to judge a situation that might put him on the line. But, equally, that goes for women, too in that their signals should be clear.  Romance? This can exist without any physical touching because it is about much, much more than the physical side.
 
As a predator, these men who are currently being made to accept the responsibility for their behaviour, the rules are different. If you have great wealth, power in a position which can make or break an actor, then you are using your power to satisfy a sick need to make yourself feel bigger and better and greater and more powerful. The longer you get away with this behaviour, the more you will feel a right to continue and even become much worse.
 
The buzz or the orgasm or the delight in reducing someone else to be a slave to your desires, is indicative of a weak personality. Yes, I know that this way of being is part of the process of evolution and mating and being bigger and better to get the best woman, or vice cersa.......But it is not the same as the reasons why these people are now being publicly shamed.  These reasons are sick and related to the having someone do your bidding fantasy.
 
It is exactly the same driver as in war situations where groups of women are made into sex slaves. The men have the guns and the power and they will satiate their sick fantasies.  It is demeaning, it is rape, it is violation of that other human being.
 
That the acting world is now a podium to out this behaviour and present it to the world, is a great thing for every single victim in the world. It is sending out a message loud and clear and it is a great thing to be happening. It is showing a clear development of the human consciousness.
 
As for men or women knowing their own boundaries, in flirtations or touching etc. That is an entirely different subject. We can exude the way we feel about being in the presence of someone, who might be making unacceptable moves.  Of course, being young and foolish and having little life experience does mean that mistakes can and will be made by many of us. Any doe eyed teenager falling for an actor or a school teacher or whomever, needs some guidance and understanding, both young men and women, of course, it is all part of growing up and learning.
 
Dave Volek Added Nov 20, 2017 - 3:55pm
Tubularsock and Eileen
 
I should make it clear that I'm of side that NO means NO. If SHE gets naked and dances on your lap and says NO, that means NO. The guy has to stop.
 
This article was inspired by one of the allegations that a celebrity "put his hand on my knee". Does this constitute a sexual assault, especially when the woman says "no" and the player backs off?  
 
I have to agree that a celebrity using his power to "strongly encourage" sex is different than my ex-roommate who is engaging in his pursuit of happiness. But how do we tell the difference between a celebrity who is playing the promiscuous game or a celebrity who is using his power? For example, the celebrity might not say: "if you have sex with me, I'll give that small role in my next movie", but the implication can sure be there.  My ex-roommate was never in a position to make such an offer, overt or implied.
 
I'm pretty sure my ex-roommate didn't read the signals correctly on occasion. Should we charge him too for sexual assault? 
 
And this does work both ways. Woman can also initiate sexual advances to see if they can get action out of some guy they find attractive. Should we charge the woman as well?
 
The way I see it, any person who is desiring some kind of fame or authority really can't play the promiscuous game any more in his (or her) off hours. And this may not be a bad thing.
 
Jeff Michka Added Nov 20, 2017 - 5:39pm
KO sez: Maybe the current outrage will give more women (and children) the courage to stand up to the predators.-That might be "best outcome", given the accusers have been condemned as "partisan hacks" and liars trying to destroy the "perfet R control of everything, everywhere, and gee, why weren't Ds out chastising Harvey Weinstein and accusing him YEARS AGO?  Somehow, evil Ds must be dragged into the picture to feed the narrative.  It's all their fault.
Dave Volek Added Nov 20, 2017 - 6:13pm
Jeff
Perpetrators got away with acts because we had an attitude that if someone is good at their occupation, their shady past and off hours activities did not matter. This held true for many high profile positions around the world.
 
We are coming to a time where your past does matter and what you do in the off hours does matter.
Leroy Added Nov 20, 2017 - 7:10pm
With regards to Hollywood, I have to wonder what effect it is going to having on filmmaking.  For as long as I remember, Hollywood has promoted promiscuity.  Will that change?  Will they start portraying effeminate men in leading roles?  Will the bad guys be portrayed with toxic masculinity?   Will wimps become the heartthrobs?  For sure, John Wayne types won't forcibly grab a woman and kiss her to subdue her.  It is already moving in the direction where women are the superheroes.
Don Added Nov 20, 2017 - 7:26pm
I have told this story before, but in this ne w environment of wild sexual harassment charges flying, I will tell it again.
 
Just before I retired after fifty years of university teaching, a new breed of female professors were coming on board. I realized I did not get them, and then one made that crystal clear. She was the type that Rush Limbaugh calls feminazi.
 
Passing her office one day, I noted that she was all dressed up, not in her usual dungarees. Typical of an old southern male, I said, “My, don’t you look nice today.”
 
She went ballistic. With nostrils flaring she demanded “What do you mean by that!”
 
Near panic at that moment, I pulled myself together and said, “Well, I thought you might be job hunting.”
 
Taken aback, she relented. Near retirement, I vowed to stay out of the way of this new breed.
 
When I meet my fellow professors who are still teaching, their response is “Don you don’t know how lucky you are to get out when you did. It has become insane.”
Don Added Nov 20, 2017 - 7:51pm
As to Roy Moore, Bill Bennett had a suggestion for him tonight, one I also had been thinking about. His suggestion was to come right out and say, “When I was young, I did some stupid things that I deeply regret. However, look at my record. At age (Moore can fill in the blank) 40 years ago, I grew up. After that I have been a paragon of virtue. I have made great contributions to society. I have a wonderful family who love me.”
 
Americans are very forgiving people if a person is repentant. Jimmy Swaggart demonstrated the model. With tears running down his cheeks he cried out to God and the people that he had sinned. The people forgave him–same with Clinton–same with Trump and now beautifully being carried out by Al Franken.
 
Moore appeared to be in a more perilous position for telling the truth because of the 14 year old. (The rest were over age and no one knows what part they may have played.) However, today we learned from the one who was 14. She says Moore took her to his house, where he spread out blankets on his living room, removed their clothing and touched her. She said she told him she wasn’t comfortable, and he eventually agreed to take her home.
 
I think Moore could survive that story.
Jeff Michka Added Nov 20, 2017 - 7:58pm
Don:  You Xtains are still trying to make a case for supporting a pedophile to get your religious aims, no matter what.  I f there was a Geezus it's unlikely he cross the street to urinate on  Moore "supporters" re: "fellow pedophiles,"right?
Jeff Michka Added Nov 20, 2017 - 8:00pm
Don quotes bill Bennett: I have a wonderful family who love me.-Bet Moore's dog loves him, too...
Eileen de Bruin Added Nov 21, 2017 - 3:54am
Dave, we are mixing up two, very different, things here.
 
I am discussing the current evaluation and outing to the world that sexual predators and the behaviour thereof and therein, which has been culturally tolerated up to this point, is now being shaken out and exposed for what it is.
 
I am not talking about knowing what the signals are in a situation where a man and woman might want to get to know each other.  Going out to a business dinner, if the man - or the woman - puts his or her hand on someone's knee, it is inappropriate to the situation.  Is there a contract riding on this, are there issues that could be compromised?  You get the picture.  If an actor is in the situation of the casting couch (which is simply well known and accepted in society!) then it puts them in an awful position wherein they have to subject themselves to a sexual predator.  It is completely distinct. The difference is about as clear as in neon lights:"casting couch this way". That is why it is so good that these giants of cinema are now being exposed for what they really are. Talented or not.
 
Your friend, who put his hand on a woman's knee or, indeed, a woman who got the signals wrong and brushes close to a man - is playing a game of subtle sexual interest.  This isn't wrong either! The one or the other politely, or otherwise, makes it clear that it is an undesired advance.
 
Don, this is a situation of clear over reaction and a feminist movement which was young.  And then nobody knows how to behave anymore!  It is entirely distinct to the casting couch syndrome. Equally is it distinct to unwanted attentions from another person. That woman whom you described was over reacting to the degree of hysteria.  Anyone - man or woman - saying to anyone - man or woman - oh, you look really nice today...are you going somewhere special?  is NOT part of this thread!
 
Dave, I am merely imparting the clear distinctions here.  What you are discussing has nothing to do with the sexual predators in the movie world or in the political world or in the war world.  The behaviour has been allowed and it is therefore condoned in society as a whole.  The present time, however, is sending out a distinct message that the time has come to move on to respecting each other and not to use or subject another to your power game.  Of course, in this power game, as shown by Mr. Trump, it makes one higher in the men stakes....
 
 
 
 
Dave Volek Added Nov 21, 2017 - 8:41am
Eileen
 
I have to agree that we are talking about two distinct differences here. In the case of my ex-roommate, it is mostly about the sex. In the case of a celebrity, it is often about who has the power to affect another person's life.
 
The challenge is to know when a celebrity is motivated more by the sex or by the power. We can rule out my ex-roommate from this challenge because he really didn't have any power. But with a celebrity, there is both sex and power. Sometimes it is obvious that power is the primary motivator. Sometimes the celebrity is only playing the typical games of the promiscuous. Maybe it's half-and-half.
 
We could argue the celebrity should have same rights as my ex-roommate. He (or she) should have the freedom to embark on a promiscuous lifestyle pending consent of their partners. But as this thread is developing, I can only see that people who yearn for fame or status or authority can no longer play the promiscuous game any more in their off hours--and their past. One founded or unfounded allegation is now capable of destroying a career. A hand on the knee is now capable of destroying a career.
 
I recall Billy Graham had a policy that whenever he was in company of a woman who was not his wife, he always made sure there was a third person around. I think he realized that he was a target for unfounded allegations and his life policy kept his reputation intact. Allegations were not going to stick.
 
 
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 21, 2017 - 11:26am
Dave: As you know, I used to be a feminist. Apparently I still have some measures of it in me.....so, hm.....I think it's about power.
 
I mean promiscuity before marriage is no big deal in itself, is it? And I don't think one can draw the conclusion that there will be sexual misconduct from promiscuous person. I did not hear that Roman Polanski, Joe Biden, or Kevin Spacey were even promiscuous. Most of the predators are. But I think it really comes with a lack of morals and accountability.
Dave Volek Added Nov 21, 2017 - 11:56am
Benjamin
 
From what I can gather from sociological data, about 90% of us are living a monogamous or celibate lifestyle. And the monogamous leaning may change their partners several times in their lifetime, but most can count their sexual partners over their life on one or two hands.
 
And there are those, mostly in their youth, who do a lot of experimenting with sex. They will be promiscuous for several years, then figure out that monogamy is better.
 
On some level, my ex-roommate was a predator. I sensed that he and a few other players I have known enjoy the conquest of bedding different women. So it wasn't solely about the sex. However, the women he entertained willingly entered into the relationship for whatever it was worth. And they too may have other motives than sex.
 
It's hard to find that line between simple promiscuity and predatorship. But from the news I heard this morning, it seems Mr. Weinstein stepped way over that line.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Eileen de Bruin Added Nov 21, 2017 - 12:34pm
Yes, Dave, your room mate went out on the prowl and returned with willing partners. No problems with this at all.
 
The predatory casting director or producer is a different thing and at an altogether different level. These subjects were not willing participants. This is about subjugation and humiliation and blackmail.
 
If society views this behaviour as normal, or part of the big game, then it goes on and on.  It did and it does but now: . . .
 
Time out. Time to rethink and move on up a notch or two.
opher goodwin Added Nov 21, 2017 - 12:45pm
I think it is the abuse of power and position that is the crux of the situation.
Jeff Michka Added Nov 21, 2017 - 1:19pm
The Sutrino intones: They are contrived by experienced trainers or 'bird dogs' that  worked for other Democrat party supporters and candidates.  Project Veritas has a great youtube video showing a trainer or manager of these black projects.-What's it like being in the tribe of pedophile lovers, Sutrino?  It is all tribal.  Moorists just want his vote to help make sure wealthy get their taxes cut, if it take a vote from a kid f***er, that's okay, 'cause "the tribe benefits.  "Project Veritas" is a lie just in their name. So, okay, one for the tribe of Sutrino.  But do us a favor, admit it so you stop sounding like an apologist for pedophiles. 
Jeff Michka Added Nov 21, 2017 - 1:21pm
opher g notes: I think it is the abuse of power and position that is the crux of the situation.-Probably.  And the 70s ended some time back, as near as I can tell.
Eileen de Bruin Added Nov 21, 2017 - 1:53pm
Dave, your:
 
Perpetrators got away with acts because we had an attitude that if someone is good at their occupation, their shady past and off hours activities did not matter. This held true for many high profile positions around the world.
 
We are coming to a time where your past does matter and what you do in the off hours does matter.
 
and Opher, your:  I think it is the abuse of power and position that is the crux of the situation.
 
Yes. this is it.  Especially about coming to the time where it does matter, yes, yes, yes!  And, yes, abuse of power and position does matter.
 
Top marks.
 
 
 
Mike Haluska Added Nov 21, 2017 - 3:31pm
This conversation needs to be addressed to "enablers" as well as predators and victims.  An enabler can be a person like Hillary Clinton who lives in a pretend marriage solely for political benefit or a "victim" who actually goes along with the predators advances as a "means to an end" - Hollywood is a great example. 
 
For every woman who resists the "pay for play" sexual advances there are 10 women with blind ambition and low self-esteem who view the abuse as a "price you pay for stardom".  Word may get around that a big-shot producer is a "predator", but some may also make the connection that the actress who became an "overnight success" got the role that launched her career via the casting couch. 
Donna Added Nov 21, 2017 - 3:37pm
One hell of an article..
Hollywood has always been seedy...Now it has been brought right to the front of everyone's attention..so it is shocking..
Couch casting calls, have been a thing for as long as they have had movies..Not saying i approve, simply that this is nothing new..
On the case of Moore.. what i find hardest to believe is that any person would or could defend this man..And how his conservative base has used the bible as an example..Disgusting!!
Mike Haluska Added Nov 21, 2017 - 5:04pm
Donna -
Don't you think that someone should be presumed innocent until ACTUAL EVIDENCE is presented before you condemn them?  The "high school yearbook" now looks like it was a FORGERY - and Gloria Alred refuses to let a handwriting expert examine it.  She presented it as SOLID EVIDENCE and now that doubt is cast she wants to run from the damned book!  And the fact that ALMOST 40 YEARS have passed and conveniently 4 weeks before an election accusers come forth doesn't raise ANY SUSPICION that this is politically motivated???
 
The Democrats are a handful of Senate seats away from giving the Republicans a Super Majority - rendering them irrelevant and unable to stop the appointment of 3 Supreme Court justices that will shift the balance for the next 2 or 3 generations to Conservative.  They're desperate and a lot of them are willing to do ANYTHING to avoid losing.
Don Added Nov 21, 2017 - 5:18pm
As to the forgery, did you see where the forger added DA to the signature.  The forger must have thought that DA meant District Attorney.  However, it actually was the initials of the secretary who was authenticating the stamped signature on the accuser's divorce papers Judge Moore had signed?
Jeffry Gilbert Added Nov 21, 2017 - 9:54pm
This Puritan obsession with sex - where/when am I going to get some all the way through to "oh that slut got some". 
 
Sex is a natural requirement for health, as essential as water and air. 
 
Grow the hell up.
Mike Haluska Added Nov 22, 2017 - 10:49am
Don -
 
Not only that, but at the time of the writing Moore was a Deputy District Attorney (DDA)
Mike Haluska Added Nov 22, 2017 - 10:53am
Donna - I don't want to appear "dismissive" - just objective.  We do know that Congress has a "Shush Fund" that has paid out over $15 million of taxpayer dollars to secretly settle sexual harassment cases.  I say since they used TAXPAYER MONEY they should ALL (Rep & Dem) be exposed and answer for their bullshit!!! 
 
Something tells me that the Democrats have a lot more reason to keep this silent than Republicans.   
George N Romey Added Nov 22, 2017 - 10:58am
Most people have no idea of just how widespread the casting couch is in Hollywood.  Most young women AND men realize at some point they might will need to put out, and maybe not for their preferred team.  I'm not saying its right but its been there since probably the early 1920s.
 
As we are seeing both sides of government (Dems and Republicans) seem to be caught up in the sexual scandal.  The question is which women AND men did it purposely (like I will give oral sex to this old man because I want that plumb assignment that will start my career) or were forcefully raped. 
 
Moreover, there are others (on Youtube) that have long said pedophiles are present within out government, business and finance (a club if you will).  I keep wondering if the real shoe is waiting to fall, and hard.
Autumn Cote Added Nov 22, 2017 - 11:38am
Please note, the more prompt and personalized responses you offer, the more likely your articles remain popular and commented upon.  As always, many thanks for your participation with Writer Beat!  
Don Added Nov 22, 2017 - 12:57pm
Mike, re: DA.  Moore’s secretary has identified the DA initials as hers, a routine procedure when the signature is stamped.  Are you making the same error as the forger?
Passion Blues Added Nov 22, 2017 - 1:55pm
I am a promiscuous woman. I enjoy my life and make no apologies for it. I love sex, and I love life. Just because I am promiscuous, I am not a whore, a slut, a pedophile, or an accuser. I choose who I want to be with, and generally it is who I want. Men are easy, I can almost always figure out a way to get the one I am after. I am not a predator, sexually available and predator are not synonymous. I currently have an amazing lover who joins me with others at times, at times he watches. I love him, and will continue to: most people cannot understand sex without love. I do make love to my partner, but a lot of the times I am just giving my body what it wants. It is an incredible stress release. If you cannot open your mind enough to understand that sex and love do not HAVE to be synonymous, then my world isn't for you. Please just say so, and move on, people like me do not invite your judgement, nor do we care. We are too busy loving this life!
Don Added Nov 22, 2017 - 2:10pm
Pedophilia is a very complex problem. Because I am a retired psychologist, I will no longer be treating that difficulty. Therefore, I do not intend to expend the effort that would qualify me as an expert in that area.
 
Following however, are the ICD 10 Diagnostic Criteria, plus the descriptions of the different philias:
 
Pedophilia is a disorder characterized by recurrent sexual urges, fantasies, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children. It is a sexual disorder occurring in a person 16 years or older and that is recurrent with intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child (generally age 13 or younger).
 
Hebephilia is the strong, persistent sexual interest by adults in pubescent (early adolescent) children (especially those showing Tanner stages–early onset of puberty), which is typically ages 11–14. It differs from pedophilia (the primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children), and from ephebophilia (the primary sexual interest in later adolescents, typically ages 15–19).While individuals with a sexual preference for adults may have some sexual interest in pubescent-aged individuals, researchers and clinical diagnoses have proposed that hebephilia is characterized by a sexual preference for pubescent rather than adult partners.

All of the above are kin to homosexuality in that they are attractions not common to the general public.
 
Pedophilia per se appears to be a lifelong condition.
 
There is a lot of pressure by my fellow writers on WB to pile on Judge Roy Moore. However, he does not fit the diagnostic criteria of any of the philias. As a psychologist, I am not joining the lynch party.
Shane Laing Added Nov 22, 2017 - 2:46pm
Power or perceived power is a great aphrodisiac the same as money and status.  Years ago Prince Charles was described as the most eligible bachelor in the world and women were quoted on tv as saying he's so handsome! Well he's hardly Brad Pitt. If he wasn't the future king he would never have got laid let alone having a bevy of beauties lining up to sample his charms hoping to be "the one." He took advantage of the situation he found himself. 
 
POTUS I mean he's not much of a catch if he wasn't a billionaire and there is no way in hell he would have the wife he does if he was working in a canning factory.
 
Some women go out to catch a "whale" and good luck to them.  This of course is a mutual thing between two people, not the despicable nigh on blackmail of the casting couch.  Its good to see women coming forward to report this kind of thing.  
Dave Volek Added Nov 22, 2017 - 4:56pm
Passion Blues
This article or its comments may have a tone of judgement, but it was not my intent. People make choices--and it seems 10% of us have chosen a promiscuous lifestyle.
 
It would be interesting from your perspective how we deem a promiscuous celebrity is just being promiscuous or is using power to coerce sex. 
 
If we can't tell the difference, then--in these days--the celebrity risks losing by choosing to be promiscuous.
 
 
Shaine 
All good points indeed. The lower classes have their fair share of promiscuous players as well. I doubt the canning factory worker has any expectation of nailing a superstar model.
 
But I wouldn't doubt my ex-roommate (lower middle class) got a few romps with women above his economic strata.
 
Phil Greenough Added Nov 23, 2017 - 6:01am
How does promiscuity play into this issue?
 
How does promiscuity not play into this issue?  Of course those that make sexual advances on multiple women are being promiscuous.  It would be one thing if Bill Clinton or Roy Moore married all those women.  If that were true, I suppose one could argue they aren’t promiscuous people. 
Eileen de Bruin Added Nov 23, 2017 - 10:57am
Promiscuity does not play into this issue, in and of itself.  Promiscuity with willing partners is one issue.
 
Power games and black mail and subjugation...is a whole other issue.  And this is the issue at point isn’t it?
Riley Brown Added Nov 24, 2017 - 10:37am
If I am not in a committed relationship and choose to have casual sex with multiple partners that doesn't necessarily make me dirty or imply that I freely trade sex for other things I want, it just means I enjoy sex and don't limit myself to one partner.
 
Our predominantly Christian moral traditions suggest that is a horrible moral lapse, and I get that, but it's all rebellious based, including all the religiously inspired laws that accompany a traditional marriage.
 
If I did run around like that I would expect I would be extremely vulnerable to STD's, and therefore would understand people who suggest I'm very possibly a walking STD.  Not a pretty picture and not the type of person I'd want to be intimate with.
 
Personally I think people who jump from one partner to another are missing out on a level of love that only comes from a committed relationship, but that's just me and my opinion.  I do know what they say about opinions.
Dave Volek Added Nov 24, 2017 - 12:46pm
Riley
I think we are getting off the track a bit, and your discussion might be worthy of its own article on WB.
 
I had a fear of STDs, and this developed into my moral code of my youth: don't sleep with anyone you don't intend to marry. I think it served me well.
 
I had a roommate who worked as a nurse at an STD clinic. He said half the clients were perpetual repeat offenders. It seems the pleasure of sex was more important than the negative consequences.
John Minehan Added Nov 24, 2017 - 5:38pm
As the late actress Tallulah Bankhead is reputed to have said to her physician after being treated for an unusually virulent STD, in the days before sulfa drugs), “Don't think this has taught me a lesson!
Riley Brown Added Nov 24, 2017 - 7:16pm
Dave, I too was more than a little afraid of STD's when growing up and that was why I never had a desire to run around like some of my friends did. 
 
I've heard abortion clinics similar say that way more than we might imagine are repeat customers.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Nov 25, 2017 - 6:45pm
@ Leroy. "Well, Captain, I have to say it is nice in Asia where the women are still women.  They don't bite your head off for complimenting them."
 
That is reassuring. Do they Bobit?
Mircea Negres Added Nov 27, 2017 - 3:20am
Many of the so-called victims who came forward in Hollywood struck me as nothing more than ambitious men and women who sold their asses for a chance at fame and fortune and claim butthurt after they used the money. Okay, in some cases parents sold their children to pedophiles (actor David Niven wrote about that in Bring On The Empty Horses!, so it's not a new phenomenon) or as is more common, took money in return for silence and not pressing charges, like in the Michael Jackson case(s). And then there's the old joke about the hooker who accuses her client of rape:
"Lawyer: When did my client rape you?
 Hoooker: When his check bounced!" 

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