France leads celebrity pushback against '#MeToo'

In the months since allegations of sexual abuse against US movie mogul Harvey Weinstein first emerged, Hollywood stars have been falling over themselves to condemn him, other 'ladies men' in the industry and express their support to those who claimed to be victims of sexual predators. The witch hunt has spread beyond Hollywood first to politics, then business and now the hysteria has reached such levels all men are being condemned. The unanimity of the response has been and astounding example of what the french call Le pensée unique, the single idea. At the Golden Globe awards last Sunday, an entire galaxy of stars came out wearing black in solidarity with victims and those who resisted the demands for conformity were subjected to the obligatory hate campaign.


This week veteran French actresses and 1960s / 70s sex symbol Catherine Deneuve, took a different view.

Deneuve was the most high-profile of 100 prominent French female celebrities who signed an open letter criticising the #MeToo social-media campaign, and related drives to expose sexual harassment in France and elsewhere.


The Hollywood and mainstream media campaigns, the Le Monde letter said, had gone beyond exposing individual perpetrators, and had unleashed a torrent of "hatred against men and sex". Add to that the usual noise from London's metropoilitan leftie screechers who, supported by the usual suspects, The Labour Party, Unite Against Fascism, The Anti - Nazi League, the Gay BLTs and the tesicularly deficient progressive wing of the Conservative Party responded with their own Pavolian hatefest. The people can be relied on to unfailingly respond to the trigger signals.

"Puritanism" was running rampant "like in the good old days of witchcraft", the French feminists argued, stating that the freedom of men to pester was "essential to sexual freedom".


Around the world - but mainly among the liberal elites of east and west coast USA, the shock of dropping jaws striking the ground registered two point five on the Richter scale and a tsunami of outrage swamped social media. In France itself there were some strong reactions - both for and against - but the response was not front-page news and most people simply gave a gallic shrug and said "Qu'importe".

Those different reactions say a lot about the different ways feminist view the world in the Anglosphere and Southern Europe France and the US. "It's hard to imagine a US movie star not being comprehensively pilloried" for signing such a letter, says Emily Yoffe, contributing editor for The Atlantic magazine. And that is a key point; the Politically Correct Thought Police who patrol the internet might get their knickers in a twist and start raging about diversity when someone complains about immigrant refusing to integrate but there are many aspects of diversity followers of the pensée unique are just not willing to tolerate.


The French women are not the first to break ranks from the politically correct consensus.

In an interview for Business Insider, Matt Damon, star of the highly successful Bourne franchise  drew plenty of virulent ctiticism for expressing quite mild concerns about the conduct of the #MeToo movement. He said that the majority of men in Hollywood were not involved in sexual misconduct but this is not not gaining attention.

"We're in this watershed moment, and it's great, but I think one thing that's not being talked about is... the preponderance of men I've worked with who don't do this kind of thing," he said during an interview while promoting his new film Downsizing.

 

Many social media users condemned the actor for suggesting not being a sexual predator was an accomplishment although that is a ridiculous distortion of what he meant.

It is not the first time Damon has commented on sexual abuse following rape allegations against Hollywood film producer Harvey Weinstein. Last week in an interview with ABC News Damon said groping and rape were two different things and shouldn't be treated the same.

"There's a difference between, you know, patting someone on the butt and rape or child molestation, right?" Damon told ABC'S 'Popcorn' with Peter Travers "Both of those behaviours need to be confronted and eradicated, without question, but they shouldn't be conflated, right?"

 

Criticizing the politically correct zealotry of the #MeToo campaign may be taboo in the USA and Britain, so why can such views as are expressed in the letter to Le Monde accepted with so little fuss in France? One reason, according to Anastasia Colosimo, a political commentator who lectures in Sciences Politique in Paris, is author of "Les bûchers de la liberté," (The butchers of Liberty) and is an enduring influence in France of 1960s-type feminists, steeped in the free-wheeling ethos of the time.

"A key aspect of the struggle of the 1960s was the need to remove any guilt attached to feminine sexuality," she says. "Women openly said they had the same craving for sex as men."

 

The signatories of the letter also include writer Catherine Millet, 69, best-known for a 2002 memoir detailing her sexual history in graphic detail. Among the others are Catherine Robbe-Grillet, the author of sadomasochistic stories, and Brigitte Lahaie, a 1970s porn star turned talk-show host.

These older feminists see the drive against harassment, which gathered steam in 1990s America, as a threat to the sexual revolution their generation has achieved. They accept the need to fight rape and workplace harassment. But in their view, says Ms Colosimo, activists who put such dangers at the heart of the modern feminist struggle promote a view of women "as victims and helpless objects of male desire rather than free agents".

This contrasts with the Anglosphere where the feminist movement has been completely hijacked by ugly, hairy - arsed, man - hating lezzas who are prepared to condemn Harvey Weinstein although he has not yet been convicted of anything, but simultaneously defend Muslims who rape and sexually exploit white girls, "because Multiculturalism."

 

The pushback is not just in France however, ridiculous claims from the gaggle of squawkers in Hollywood and other sectors of the celebrity circus have alienated more level headed commentators. Novelist Margaret Atwood has criticized #MeToo, from a different angle, her provocative article is published in Canada's Globe and Mail newspaper. The lifelong feminist is singing, if not quite from the same songsheet, certainy from the same songbook as she complains that a broken legal system which permits media witch hunts rather than ensuring due process is observed, thus negating the legal rights of those against whom allegations have been made but as yet no charges have been laid.

 

We saw a similar trend in Britain after the crimes of DJ and TV presenter Jimmy Savile were exposed in 2013 after a police investigation into evidence of his prolific sexual abuse of under age and vulnerable people had been in progress for some months. While rumours had circulated about Savile's behaviour for years, as was the case with Harvey Weinstein, those who should have acted closed ranks to protect Savile because his carefully constructed public image made him a cash cow for their media companies and charities.

As soon as the Savile story gained traction , though he was safe from legal action having died in 2011, multitudes of attention seekers started to make #MeToo style allegations against male celebrities most of which were not supported by any evidence at all. And as in the latest outburst of politically correct madness names of the accused were made pubic before any legal process was initiated. The legal rights of those accused have been ignored by the very people who usually scream most loudly about "rights".

 

American novelist Lionel Shriver, is also sceptical about the motivations of those jumping on the #meToo bandwagon. Unanimity in Hollywood, she suggests, is result of risking ostracism by going off-message: "Given the nature of social movements these days, if you have reservations you keep your mouth shut."In the social media age, Shriver adds, "You have one position that's acceptable and everyone piles on to it. If you express a dissenting opinion, you're going to get slaughtered."

This has not deterred Shriver, who fully supports the Deneuve line and regards #MeToo as a "witch-hunt". "We're losing the distinction between serious sexual assault and even rape and putting a hand on a knee," she says. "It's as if someone finding you attractive is an insult. I beg to differ: I'm complimented if someone is attracted to me. The only question is: am I allowed to say no?"

 

Last year another major French actress, Fanny Ardant - born in 1949 - went so far as to say that the campaign against sex pests was redolent of fascism. Fascism is an accusation that has been levelled at the forces of politically correct authoritarianism in other contexts too, and with good cause.

Comments

Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jan 16, 2018 - 3:27pm
The French have way more clear sight than the US, the Swedes or the Germans who don't know how far they want to drive that PC shit.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Jan 16, 2018 - 3:28pm
Well...Men can put a stop to it as women can put a stop to war. Refusing to make box deposits would stop the madness as women refusing to accept box deposits would stop wars.
Jeff Jackson Added Jan 16, 2018 - 4:50pm
Excellent article Ian, with, as usual, your colorful descriptions. For better or worse, America’s puritanical past is still with us. From the looks of things, all Harvey Weinstein needs to do is confess that he is a Muslim, and the pervasive, (or is that perverse?) “diversity” and “multiculturalist” attitude of the media elites will offer “understanding” and “acceptance.” It seems to me that the French (and a lot of Europe) see sex as part of life, and not in the dirty, sinful, puritanical vision of Americans. Topless women in America are a scandal, where in Europe it isn’t considered a big deal. Yes, ladies have those, no big deal, move on, they were part of the plot of the joke or story.  I remember the Monty Python topless scenes back in the early seventies and some of the fuss even then. The selectivity of political correctness is the prime example of its hypocrisy.
Weinstein is the quintessential “open secret” where everyone knows it and no one does anything. Everyone wants what they can’t have, and Weinstein is the epitome of that. One would think that with his overactive libido and thick wallet, he could have just farmed it out, ala Charlie Sheen.  As long as Charlie was bringing in cash, no one cared.
Phil Greenough Added Jan 16, 2018 - 4:55pm
I don’t get what there is to criticize about the #MeToo movement.  Thanks to the movement, sexual abusers can no longer hide their misdeeds so easily.  Of course nobody is guilty until proven so in a court of law, but when stories can be collaborated by more than one victim, one often doesn’t need a court of law to rightly out abusers for all to see. In many cases, the abusers have owned up to some of what they’ve been accused of.  Where I feel sorry for the accused is when their lives are ruined despite their cries of innocence.  However, with the exception of Roy Moore, I can’t think of a single example.  One ruined life is a small price to pay for the amount of abusers we’ve been able to out.  After all, for every abuser that’s identified, that’s many women that won’t suffer in the future and many others who will feel some level of justice has finally been served. 
Tamara Wilhite Added Jan 16, 2018 - 5:46pm
The "Metoo" movement suffers from several liberal flaws.
 
* The eager expansion of the offense to include as many as possible, in the hope it gives the victims power.
Now rape victims like Rose McGowan are competing with Aziz Ansari's accuser who equates him not reading her mind while he undresses her, after she gave him clear sexual signals all night.
 
* The general blaming of ALL men diminishes the accusations against specific men.
When liberal Hollywood elites say all men over 30 are guilty, it causes everyone else to say "it can't be that bad if everyone does it".
 
* By applying unfair double and triple standards, the so-called calls for justice are rendered meaningless.
Medusa Magazine saying we should believe those who accuse the right more than those who accuse the left in a November 2017 headline is one example.
Liberals rushing to blame everyone else but making excuses for Weinstein and Polansky is another.
Focusing on sexual harassment claims against men while ignoring the child sexual abuse charges others have made is a third. Corey Feldmen's accusations are the more prominent in this case, and harassment of him for doing so is proof someone is hiding something. How else do you explain him be arrested for possessing marijuana ... in California?
Ignoring rape victims of prominent Democrats like Bill Clinton is yet another. Only liberal victims or conservative targets matter, it is clearly politicized.
Bill H. Added Jan 16, 2018 - 6:59pm
Am I not surprised that even sexual abuse can be politicized only on WB.
There are abusers on both "sides" (for those that require that every f*cking issue these days has sides).
No wonder the rest of the world thinks we are a bunch of idiots!
Mahendra Kent Added Jan 16, 2018 - 9:24pm
Thank you for your article and the lady who looked at life from men's perspective. I sincerely am grateful for such a bold move in such scary Feminist society. The society must respect women and men alike. The women have equal social rights. However, the Feminist movement has waged a war against men and their destruction. There are few bad men and equally there are few bad women. This total condemnation of men by the society is discrimination against men. I request more women to start appreciating the psychological men go through when wrongly accused. The pain in many cases results in men committing suicide. There are a few fair women who have taken stance against Feminist movement currently practiced.  
wsucram15 Added Jan 17, 2018 - 9:03am
Well Im sorry to have offended you or anyone else.  But as a member of #metoo I would have to say, it is real.  I can attest to myself and multiple other cases over the years of incest, rape, assault, stalking, work sexual harassment and just harassment in general by various members of the male community in relation to women.
BTW..it happens to men as well...
Sorry guys women have had enough.  Hollywood just gave it press.
Autumn Cote Added Jan 17, 2018 - 9:10am
Please note, authors that are responsive to commenters are usually rewarded by more comments and qualify to have their articles featured in my once a week email blast.   
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 17, 2018 - 9:46am
Autumn Cote, I know that my dear, but authors based in Britain are shutting down their internet connection and opening the wine just about the time New Yorkers (those that eat early) are finishing dinner and getting online for some recreational web browsing ;-)
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 17, 2018 - 10:52am
Stone Eater, The French do have a more enlightened attitude to ... shall we say, sexual diversity than that the progressive left in Britain, Germany or USA. As a manager I dealt with all types of female, from those who seemed to be 'putting it on a plate' to those who would have been mortified if a man put his hand in their arm or shoulder in what was intended as a reassuring gesture.
There was always horseplay in the offices but I only ever had to deal with two complaints; when one of the young lads put his arm round a girl's waist and called her darling. Having run straight to human resources she was ostracised and eventually forced out BY THE OTHER GIRLS who were horrified she had demanded a popular workmate be fired for something they saw and recognised as a bit of fun.
The other was an older man who seemed to think it was OK to show young females the stash of porn he kept in his brief case. I was happy to fire him.
Another time I was involved in a sexual harassment case in which another manager was accused by a woman he's been having a fling with. I had to give evidence to a tribunral. The story emerged that he'd tried to end the affair and  she went for the throat. Eventually he was reinstated, she was demoted and moved to another office.
I agree with the french writer quoted in the article who says the #MeToo who says their attitude portrays women as weak and ineffectual, unable to defend themselves against the Big Bad Male, but it is an attitude confined to one social class. Working class girls are well able to take care of themselves.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 17, 2018 - 11:01am
Dr Rupert, well it worked for Lysitrata but I'm not sure it would now. I think you are right however that men can stop the #MeToo madness by simply not giving women the attention so many crave, as revealed by their attention to make up and clothes and their posturing and pouting.
Imagine how deflating a response of "Sorry love, but you'll have to buy your own dinner, I'm off for a few beers and a game of pool with the boys, they will not accuse me of inappropriate behaviour.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 17, 2018 - 11:10am
Jeff, agreed. I've been as amazed at the reaction to the Winestain accusations as I was by the Savile scandal in Britain. While Savile was not known in the USA, his appetites were widely discussed in British media. I did a radio show in the early 1980s for one of the BBC regional stations and he was the subject of many jokes. but not of the full time staff would have ever left one of the station juniors alone with him. Weinstein was the same but being Hollywood, we even knew about him in Europe. So when someone like Meryl Streep gets all weepy about "the suffering of those poor women he abused," I go with #SheKnew and dismiss her as another attention seeking hypocrite.
Dave Volek Added Jan 17, 2018 - 11:11am
Nice article Ian
 
I have been somewhat flummoxed at how the mass media is treating a hand on the knee as equivalent to rape. Until we really acknowledge this difference, I'm not too sure how effective the METOO movement is going to be.
 
One casualty I see is how the 10% (or so) of the population who are promiscuous ply their lifestyle. The two partners have to a little "dance" to find each other out--and  many of these physical movements or conversations could be construed as sexual harassment by many others.
 
While media are quick to point out how powerful men use their power coerce (and try to coerce) women into sex, women often throw themselves at these men's feet. If they are promiscuous, getting laid by celebrity is more of a high than getting laid by an average joe. 
 
 
 
 
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 17, 2018 - 11:28am
Phil Greenhough, and how many abusers have been outed? How many have been charged with offences. It seems to me all the noise from the liberals amounts to nothing more than the usual hate politics that is their stock in trade.
And as Jeff Jackson asked, what would the reaction be if Harvey W had been a Muslim? Which way would the politically correct screechers have gone then? Which of these causes is 'trending' highest on Facebook this week?
Over here, almost in parallel with spate of allegations against celebrities which followed the Savile case, there was a scandal in the northern industrial town of Rotherham. Muslim men working in organised groups had for years been grooming and sexually abusing under age girls with the complicity of local politicians and the police who "did not want to raise racial tensions" by acting against criminals in the immigrant community.
The politically correct howlers tried to dismiss this as right wing propaganda, and despite the government having commissions two reports on the case from eminent sociology academics (not a profession noted for suppoting alt_right), the left are still in denial and insisting it never happened.
So if a Muslim has been involved in the #MeToo accusations, would that be OK because hey, rape is not a problem in their culture and we must support diversity?
Whatever name you call it by, it still stinks of hypocrisy.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 17, 2018 - 11:30am
Bill H, I think the issue was being politicised long before it hit Writer Beat, in fact I'm sure there were attempt to demonize your beloved president for waying a slightly inoffensive word many years before he entered politics.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 17, 2018 - 11:39am
Mahendra, I, and I think most of the men here would agree that feminism has moved beyond campaigning for women's rights and is now waging an irrational hate campaign against men because of the actions of a small number of us in an industry long noted for sexual licence. "The casting couch" was common knowledge as far back as the 1920s and while it is usually seen in terms of men manipulationg women, in fact as far back as Rome, the Geek city states and Ancient Egypt we have stories of women using sex to manipulate men
It must come as a terrible shock to some wannabe femmes fatale to find not all men keep their brains in their dicks.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 17, 2018 - 11:59am
Tamara, you make excellent points throughout your comment but these two I especially like as they show how deep seated the hypocrisy of the liberal chatterati actually is:
Medusa Magazine saying we should believe those who accuse the right more than those who accuse the left in a November 2017 headline is one example.
Exactly, I have seen similar comments in British media. And as I said to Bill H when he commented about sexual abuse being politicized on WB, the left were politicizing it long before it came up at this site

Liberals rushing to blame everyone else but making excuses for Weinstein and Polansky is another.
I've only seen a few half hearted excuses for Weinstein (but I admit to getting bored with the story very quickly and only following it superficially,) but the attempts to excuse Polanski who, we must remember, anally raped a twelve year old girl,are truly appalling, the more so for the fact that they came from some of the most politically vocal players in Hollywood. Sarandon and Clowny spring to mind. Now if Joe the Paedo had done the same would they be quite so eager for his crimes to be forgotten?

 
Strangely, according to this article in gawker, which I have no reason to doubt, an overwhelming majority of those who support Polanski are people who have been eager to make known their support for liberal candidates Obama and Hillary Clinton.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 17, 2018 - 12:06pm
wsucram15, you didn't offend me I merely used rhetoric to expose the hypocrisy of the liberal case.
As for women having "had enough" (of having to share the world with evil, disgusting men?) the best response I have to any woman who has "had enough" is a line from Shakespeare's Hamlet, "Get thee to a nunnery," (which is actually a wonderfully demeaning double entendre from The Bard.
Dino Manalis Added Jan 17, 2018 - 2:42pm
Men and women are supposed to like each other, but they need to proceed carefully and talk together before deciding on sexual activity, don't rush!  It's not just a matter of personal satisfaction, both of you must be satisfied!
Phil Greenough Added Jan 17, 2018 - 4:31pm
It’s a long list.  So to get the conversation going, Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey. 
 
I don’t know how the reaction would have been different if some of the accused were Muslim. I don’t see how race has anything to do with this story. 
 
I reject the notion that the police were complicit in some organized Muslim sexual abuse racket.  I also reject the notion Muslim men were groomed by anyone to sexually abuse women.  Do you really believe this stuff?
 
As for Muslim treatment of women, I think a lot of it is disgusting.  However, rape is unacceptable in most Muslim cultures.  It’s also unacceptable in our culture and the police need to make all citizens obey the law of the land.  Part of doing that is victims making their crimes known to police.  If Muslim women don’t come forward, there is no way to help them. 
Eileen de Bruin Added Jan 17, 2018 - 4:46pm
Perhaps the old “battle of the sexes” is evolving, if we look at the positive side of these emerging stories. 
 
The real question is, I think, what is the intent? A male dominated society...as in a male dominating most of politics, business and the media...is generally skewed towards the male facets of life. This does include seeking or preying upon, women. It is a deep and basic instinct.
 
A woman’s basic instinct is to seek out a Father for her children.  Selecting upon the basis of looks and power is part and parcel.
 
But, in an evolving and more enlightened society, basic instinct are brought into some qualified check. Our intelligence and the ability to live a life beyond the basic  instinct driven means of procreation and power.
 
It is all a game, games of life. But preying upon anyone and using a powerful blackmail message to force a yield to one’s will, is perverse.
 
The Burghal Hidage Added Jan 17, 2018 - 8:33pm
The most astounding revelation to me from all of this is the discovery that in spite of having no balls there are liberal men who can use their dicks for something other than watering the lawn
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jan 18, 2018 - 3:52am
Eileen
 
Spot on !
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jan 18, 2018 - 3:54am
Phil
 
 I also reject the notion Muslim men were groomed by anyone to sexually abuse women.
 
You're right. Absolute nonsense.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Jan 18, 2018 - 5:08am
#MGTOW will be around a LOT longer than #metoo. For all kinds of good reasons. As it should. 
Eileen de Bruin Added Jan 18, 2018 - 5:53am
S-E thanks, mmm. It goes on, as does the exploitation and sex slavery of women and others in the world.  I think that the good side of the emerging “outing” of telling things how they really are in supposed cosmopolitan and socially developed nations, is that the spotlight might then reach further down the hierarchies, and shine some light.
 
Also, in business, politics, trade and war (effects thereof) this primeval driver is ever so potent. Why do we kind of ignore the basics? All soap operas...including the one playing out now in the White House....are all based on these drivers and we love to love, enjoy or hate them.
 
Of course there is inequality. Balance is the desired endeavour not absolutes.  In the yin yang symbol, you see the two symbols comfortably together, in balance, not entwined.  The eye of each is that of the other. Male and female thus being necessary for each to function.
 
It would be truly illuminating if Matt Damon and others could shine their light into the slavery and prostitution alive and increasingly vile, today.  The World ethos, its driving force is might and subjugation and violence over the weaker sex, including children of both sexes.  Sex, in itself, is a powerful controller and can indeed be utilised by women as well as men, but that depends on the outer society of course.  A woman trafficked for sex from Albania, is seen as a cattle, whereas a woman who chooses sex to fulfil her career, monetary income and/or sexual ambitions in, say America, is seen as a powerful and almost equal human being.
 
This is the Status Quo so why would it be any different in the film industry?
 
The Burg: very funny and apt!
 
Jeffry: being a dimwit, I cannot decipher what the letters imply!
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jan 18, 2018 - 7:23am
Eileen
 
As long as women don't use false accusations for own profit, that's ok. But unfortunately I have the impression that nowadays all men are under suspicion...
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jan 18, 2018 - 7:30am
Jeffry
 
MGTOW is the reply of frustrated feminist propaganda. For centuries, men were the all-powerful sex, and although times have changed and we men mostly agree to equality, women start to exaggerate and turn into some kind of fanatism - tendence to the other side.
 
That is counterproductive. But finally that LGBTwhatever shit is only a subject in the West. In Africa people laugh about such, and even in Arab countries women say that this Western propaganda is bullshit.
 
Why ? Because in the majority of families the roles are clear and equality exists. I know of a lot of Muslim men who hand over their salary to their wife in order to do the bookkeeping and to meet daily needs for the family. Each has its role, and nobody complains because each respects the responsability of the other.
 
Therefore: LGBTKUHTDTIIGUZFGIJPKPHIUGU%ç*%( = YAWN.
wsucram15 Added Jan 18, 2018 - 9:55am
Ian..that is discriminatory of you to even say that.
So its ok for men to do the things I have described to women.  But for them to have had enough and fight back is wrong and they should join a nunnery?
Let me tell you a story.  I worked with a young woman..her Father sexually abused her.  When she fought back, he dragged her by her long hair out side a car down the street. She suffered neurological damage, not to mention the damage to her body and emotional damage.
I have been raped and worked with rape victims for years. Every 4 seconds a woman is viciously raped.  It never goes away.
I listened to testimony in the MD General Assembly about a woman who was abused by her boss, she was afraid to lose her job because he threatened her kids and any future job she might try to obtain.  He locked her in a closet among multiple other things.  She eventually walked out and filed suit but the damage was done.
 
Little girls get raped by priests (yeah its not just boys) and its not just about sex..it screws with you spiritually. Step-dads, fathers, brothers cousins, babysitters..whatever...rape little girls. Every day.
 
I dont think those women were weak..abuse has a psychological impact you dont seem to understand. If you are in a position of power over others I would challenge that since you are an asshole and would abuse the women in your charge to some degree.  Men dont understand why women are fighting --> this is why.
 
Did you know if a woman and a man are having sex in the workplace and that woman gets special considerations because of that, LEGALLY under EEOC LAW...the other women in the office are being sexually harassed?  You know nothing, go play with the men because you wrote an article with no knowledge of this movement or what women have gone through.
Fuck you...and ALL degenerate criminal and disgusting men you just stood up for you pig.
 
 
 
 
The Burghal Hidage Added Jan 18, 2018 - 10:43am
Jeanne -  it is a topic obviously of great personal passion for you. you may believe that as a man I could not possibly understand and to a certain extent you would be correct. I don't have the same female brain chemistry so I never can. The only other comment I have made on this thread was flippant and was not intended to be a serious offering to the discussion. Here, however, I am being very serious.
 
I lost someone very dear to me many years ago. She was victimized by the kind of cruelty and sadism you could not begin to imagine, but she was not a victim. In her own mind she was not a victim, her spirit was not broken. In fact I'd dare say she had the strongest spirit of anyone I've known in my entire life. She endured coming forward to a school counselor. She endured the conference at the school where her mother whitewashed everything and the school let it go. Bought the con job, didn't call the cops. When they should have they didn't. Then one day she vanished. We all know what happened, but no one could prove anything. Never found.
 
I assure you I will be the last person on here who will try to dismiss sexual abuse. There are valid claims and where these have been silenced by fear I applaud a climate where they feel empowered to come forward. That is why I think it is entirely proper to condemn those who cry wolf for some ulterior motive. Do not for one second expect anyone to believe that it doesn't happen. It's because of people like that and their enablers that this shit goes on like it does. There are plenty of guilty parties male and female alike.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 18, 2018 - 10:43am
BEFORE I START ANSWERING COMMENTS:


Brigitte Bardot joins #MeToo backlash, lambasts the movement hypocritical, ridiculous'



Dozens of Hollywood's elite may have taken to the Golden Globes in black recently in solidarity of the Me Too and Time's Up campaigns against sexual harassment in the industry, but Brigitte Bardot was not among them.
The French actress, sex symbol of the Sixties and animal rights advocate, was dismissive of those who have used the #MeToo hashtag to come forward about being victims of sexual assault on social media.
In an interview with the French magazine Paris Match, Bardot said that she had never been a victim of sexual harassment. Instead, she said, "I thought it was nice to be told that I was beautiful or that I had a nice little ass. This kind of compliment is nice."
Bardot also aligned with the view that women are responsible, saying actresses "come on" to producers to get roles, "and then, so they’ll be talked about, they say they were harassed". 

Read more >>>

Another famous woman who made a career out of being god looking and sexy add her voice to the backlash against The New Puritanism


Ian Thorpe Added Jan 18, 2018 - 10:48am
Dino, I've had many lovers and none of them wanted to talk about written consent or what acts were allowed and what weren't before getting down to some very mechanistic sex. Too much talking destroys the spontaneity. 
wsucram15 Added Jan 18, 2018 - 11:54am
TBH..
Ok..understood. I didnt like Ians dismissive, discriminatory comment, especially since he alluded to being in a position of power.  Which I have been in that position over both men and women, I have found it happens to men as well.   So I found his understanding level low.
 
Now with that said... when I was young, I was molested. I was very young..I didnt remember it until much later in life actually. I was abused to some degree by a priest, my mother and brother got it much worse.  So much so, it did further damage to them both. I have a cousin that was abused in the church..but doesnt talk about it.
 
There was my father who beat the shit out of everyone, I dont mean a little..I mean closed fist broken teeth, bruised, black leather belt, welt beatings-> usually in a drunken rage at my mother. After a certain point..I got sick of it and thats when I had had enough.
 
Then I went on my own and got raped.
Its like you wear a target on your back. Abusive people look for people to abuse, it is a cycle.    After awhile, you learn not to be defensive...and you get smarter, you learn to break the cycle.  Now, I will tell you.. I trained.  I have had my share of fights with men since that time and while they are stronger..I will not lose a fight, I know when to get big people to help me and when to just push my way out.  I am a nice person, but if you push me- mean as hell, both strategically and physically.
 
But I had to be..I am single in a big city and raised 2 kids.  I was married to a heroin addict (that I knew nothing about then).  I survived because I learned..and I taught other women how to survive...eventually my mother for example.
 
You dont need to hate and stay angry.  There is a trick to it.  But you dont need to take a mans crap either, in some instances the laws protect you. But I cant help the ignorance of another.  Also in this town, I have known some incredibly strong women that lost the battle of life.  I have been very blessed...like I said, women go through a lot.
Stuff that most likely you will never hear about...I promise.
 
 
 
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 18, 2018 - 12:18pm
Phil Greenhough, you seem to need a bit of education on some points. First Muslim is not a race.

Second, why do you mention Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey. No charges have yet been laid against either. Now as I said above, Weinstein's reputation as a predator was well established over ten years ago. So high profile figures like Meryl Streep and Oprah Winfrey who had nothing to fear from him could have exposed him then. What kept them quiet? Self interest? If so that makes them hypocrites doesn't it? (that's a rhetorical question BTW.
As for Spacey, fine actor though he may be, he's an old queen. So any eighteen year old male with sufficient testicular fortitude to be allowed out alone after dark should have been able to give the appropriate response to inappropriate advances and decked him.
Until either is charged however, they are being judged on unsubstantiated allegations by people more interested in virtue signalling that in justice and respecting human rights.

You then say "I reject the notion that the police were complicit in some organized Muslim sexual abuse racket."
It really does not matter what you accept or reject in whatever altered reality you inhabit, this stuff happened and it has not been subjected to due process and both the perpetrators and their facilitators have been punished. Here's some light reading for you:

from the official government web site for local authorities:
Alexis Jay Report Into Child sexual Exploitation In Rotherham
and from the left wing newspaper The Guardian
Alexis Jay On Child Sex Abuse - politicians wanted to keep a lid on it
and here from the right wing Daily Telegraph (headlined with a quote from Prof Jay):
Rotherham Sex Abuse "The utter brutality is what shocked me most."

and now we move on to the other report by Prof Louise Casey.
Report of Inspection Of Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council

The Guardian tells the story of one of the Rotherham victims who gave evidence to the Casey inquiry


and the Daily Telegraph gives an equally damning report from a different angle
Rotherham Scandal: The Catalogue Of Council failings

and let's not forget the due process so far so significantly absent in all the #MeToo craziness
Again from the left wing newspaper so you can't mislead American readers by claiming it's all fake news cooked by alt_right websites :-
Rotherham: Eight Men Convicted Of Sexually Exploiting Teenage Girls
 
different trial, different gang
Rotherham Abuse Trial, Six guilty of sex offences
 
and another (and there are more if you want them)
Rotherham: Five found guilty in Rotherham sex abuse trial
 
You're well into this rejecting business, aren't you?
"I also reject the notion Muslim men were groomed by anyone to sexually abuse women.  Do you really believe this stuff?"
Well of course I reject (yeah, I can do it too,) that Muslim men were groomed by someone to abuse women. WTF? Men being groomed to abuse women? What kind of idiot would say something like that?
Oh sorry, you did, didn't you. I think you'll find what I said was, "Muslim men working in organised groups had for years been grooming and sexually abusing under age girls with the complicity of local politicians and the police ..." which is completely different.
 
And finally your ignorance has one last flourish:
"However, rape is unacceptable in most Muslim cultures. "
This is true, unfortunately it's also wrong. While Sharia forbids rape of Muslim women, infidels and those considered kuffir (unclean), prostitutes, immodest women and women who do not have the protection of a husband, father or brother are fair game.

Hey that some pretty nasty stuff you are defending there Phil. To
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 18, 2018 - 12:31pm
Dave Volek, sorry I missed you yesterday. I understand exactly what you mean about women who throw themselves at men. When I was younger than the photo I use for my profile pick I did OK for female company and my girlfriends were all genuine, good hearted people.
A few years on from when the photo was taken I'd gained a little weight, my hair was smarter and I was in a senior position, earning a lot of money, wearing expensive suits and driving high range cars.
And suddenly a type of woman who would not have looked at me when I was a cheeky little jack - the - lad who worse faded jeans and drove a VW van were very interested and made very clear what was on offer if I could do them a few favours to help them up the career ladder. Fortunately many of my lovers when I was jack - the - lad were older than me (just my personal preference) and I learned a lot from them.
The process has been going on since men first stood erect :-)
The Burghal Hidage Added Jan 18, 2018 - 12:40pm
In praise of older women, eh?
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 18, 2018 - 12:43pm
Ellen, you are right, in a civilised society base instincts should be held in check by our respect for other people and for the moral codes that have held societies together for who knows how long. 
I feel however, that for the past seventy to eighty years the left have been preaching sexual licence, free love, the pill all that, and now the consequences of this abnegation of personal responsibility are manifest, they very people who have preached the doctrine are blaming everyone but themselves for what happens when those restraints are  removed.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 18, 2018 - 12:47pm
TBH, I'm glad some of those liberal men have learned what their dicks are for. Watering the lawn with them will not only make the grass turn yellow, it will lead to an infestation of ants.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 18, 2018 - 12:54pm
Jeffry, #MGTOW will be around longer, if for no other reason than women can talk all they like about not needing us but if we disappeared overnight, the next time they see a spider in the bath, who they gonna call, Ghostbusters.
(And if they called they whiny, leftie, feminist version of Ghostbusters that went right down the pan a couple of years ago all they'd get is a lecture on spiders' rights.)
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 18, 2018 - 12:55pm
Stone Eater, your reply to Jeffry is bang on.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jan 18, 2018 - 1:01pm
Ian
 
Thanks. I just try to see it from other sides :-)
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jan 18, 2018 - 1:10pm
BTW:
 
Nature has "decided" that men are stronger and women are more protective. What does that mean ? Since Homo Erectus 1.5 million years ago those roles were clear: The man gets the food and the woman occupies herself with the household and the kids.
 
WTF is wrong with that ? The problem is that today women want to do all: Work, get rich, get kids, get security, and please all at the same time.
 
They don't understand that this don't work. They put their kids in day care so they can buy the newest nail polish, a car or a Botox treatment. And that produces kids who know they have parents but they put them in front of the TV and sort of say: No time, but hey, I'll buy you the newest iCrap.
 
Nobody really here thinks that women should sit in the kitchen all day and get frustrated. But when you want KIDS you have to fucking take care of them yourself.
 
And if women say families HAVE TO WORK BOTH to survive, there's 2 possibilities:
 
1. Curb back your material expectations
 
or
 
2. Get out on the street and fight for a change.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 18, 2018 - 1:11pm
wsucram15,
What I said is in no way discriminatory, you are a very bigoted person if you think it is. And have you thought of getting help for those anger issues. Nobody here has said rape is OK, what we've said is that when a man puts his hand on a women's shoulder, that's not the same as rape, not is it a crime if her says "nice arse" to a girl who wears tight jeans. If she does not want men to notice her figure maybe she should choose different clothes.
In Shakespeare's day "Get thee to a nunnery" was as I said a double entendre, in a modern context it can only mean "If you dislike and fear men so much, perhaps you should choose to live in a community where the sexes are segregated.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jan 18, 2018 - 1:14pm
BTW2: I'm talking of Europe on this one, just to make it clear.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jan 18, 2018 - 1:22pm
BTW3:
 
I agree that some men think with their prick. I also agree that some Muslims are terrorists. I also agree that some Christians are fundamentalists. I further agree that some jobless are lazy. And I agree that some women can use their sex only to get "somewhere".
 
But all these are MINORITIES.
 
It's dangerous to think that a minority is the majority. That's what the media tries to do in order to produce headlines. Don't fall into that trap.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jan 18, 2018 - 1:31pm
Ian
 
In reply to your comment to Jeanne:
 
I guess these girls aren't advised properly. I mean, many men get aroused by a girl wearing almost nothing on the street, as it is in summer here in Switzerland. Then, these girls complain about being harassed...
 
I mean, girls at a certain age should know how SOME men function, right ?
 
You can't provoke and then complain about being provoked.....actually, the Muslim Burka was created exactly for that reason, as was the Hijab or Niqab.
 
I'm in no way in favor of such stuff, but maybe that was a reaction 1000 years ago to overboarding harassment and rape of women. Who knows ? Man has the tendance to exaggerate...
mark henry smith Added Jan 18, 2018 - 1:50pm
Ian, first off, well said. Catherine Denueve? backed off after a backlash of criticism. But I agree with what she said. We have to be careful how we let witch hunts develop.
 
Three points. Sexual abuse is a cultural phenomenon. We saw this in the child-abuse scandal with Catholic clergy. In the secretism, the power dynamics, the denial of an institution to confront the failings of its institutional framework, a flawed framework from top to bottom, expecting celibacy, when the leaders knew it was never adhered to by any except the most ardent priests, that the boys who came into contact with horny priests would be the most likely to be abused, an entire system of abuse of degenerate behavior became the norm.
 
You can lash me for this, but these dynamics are also part of Jewish culture. Power means the right to control the behavior of those under you and take what you want from them. If I'm wrong, tell me.
 
Two. We should never assume that because some women are comfortable being hit on aggressively that it should be a model for behavior. I had a girlfriend who was comfortable being raped. I am not kidding. She'd been raped from the age of twelve and she accepted rape as the normal way men and women have sex. If you weren't into it, you weren't a real man. What she had problems with was someone knowing her history. She lived many secret lives and hated me for remembering.
 
Those women and men who have been abused have the right to be extremely sensitive to unwanted touching. They have no duty to be comfortable with it. The people who they interact with have more responsibility to be aware, but this is a difficult area to breech, making mutual awareness a kind of necessary starting point for engagement. There's just no way to know if someone if lying. As we see with the Awarhi? situation, what we want can often obscure what we see.
 
Three, and most importantly, sexual abuse is terrible, but it is the tip of the iceberg in abuse circles. Yeah, we find the behavior to be most egregious because it violates the basic right of a person to have control over what is done to their body, but so is abortion. So is work slavery. So is bullying and reputation gas lighting. So is animal abuse and environmental abuse. There is so much abuse going on in the world right now that to limit it to this narrow scope does a disservice. The enemy should be abuse, the thoughtless use of anything without regard for how that abuse effects the welfare of others.
 
It is good that we start with this limited problem, because most men are decent, and women know that. It's a few bad apples that spoil the barrel, and move on to the bigger questions of abuse that plague the entire world.
 
Thank you. You are very well spoken.             
Dave Volek Added Jan 18, 2018 - 2:20pm
Stone
 
I come from a Slovak village in Canada. Many settlers were Slovak farmers in an area where the English-speaking people found too hard to farm.
 
In the 1960s, I grew up with many of these early female settlers still wearing their babushka (or head scarf) when they were out in public.
 
In 1990, I visited Slovakia for the first time. Many of the older women were still wearing the bubushka. The middle aged and younger had abandoned that tradition.
 
In 2005, I visisted my Ukrainian family. Kiev and Chernivitsi were cosmopolitan cites. Not too many bubushkas there. My uncle took me on an outing close the Romanian border. We got more and more rural as the drive went on. In one village near the border, all the women over 20 years old were wearing the bubushka.
 
That part of the world had a lot of Muslim influence. That influence might have spread into the Christian fashions as well. I hypothesize that Christians had their own version of the hijab or niqab, and that tradition is mostly gone.
 
 
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jan 18, 2018 - 2:46pm
Dave
 
Even 50 years ago women in rural farming areas wore a head scarf. That was just normal and had no special religious reason.
 
Christian nuns here wear something that resembles a Hijab.
 
So what's the deal ? Politics and creating enemies....
The Burghal Hidage Added Jan 18, 2018 - 3:00pm
MHS - Thank you and I will not be so delicate as to say that you are well spoken. Simply stated that was fucking brilliant
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 18, 2018 - 3:50pm
TBH, in praise of older women indeed :-) I blame my cousin Shirley. I was fifteen and going through the usual agonies of that phase in our lives, she was 30 and going through a very spiteful divorce. Her husband's extreme Catholic family watched her like hawks waiting for any misdemeanour that could be used against her. She dared not step outside in the evening. But nobody thought anything of her young cousin going to see her some nights, taking his portable record player and an armful of Beatles, Gerry and the Pacemakers, Everley Bros. Chuck Berry and so on.
I found her devastatingly attractive, and one night she found me ......................... convenient. Four years later I met Linda who was 34, our relationship caused raised eyebrows in those straight laced days. 
One of our favourite places was The Shakespeare on Friday nights. Upstairs they had a folk club. Paul Simon one played there in 1964, about two years before I started going and other well know performers passed through. Downstairs however, The Shakespeare was a pouf pub and any reasonably presentable young male going through to the folk club had to run the gauntlet. We all accepted the gropes and pinches with good humour.
One night an old queen stopped Linda and me and said, dump your granny, I'll give you the best time you've ever had, or something like that.
I never knew a woman could throw a punch like the one Linda threw as him.
But the lesson from that is I and the others who went to the Shakespeare folk club knew the reputation of the place. We didn't start screaming "Oh I've been groped, I feel so damaged."
Having our arses squeezed did no harm, and might even have opened up new horizons for some of the boys.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 18, 2018 - 4:12pm
Dave, I don't know of any Christian sect that demanded full head cover but there have been some weird ones. I was talking to someone a few days ago who likes to remind her Facebook friends that her ancestors were on The Mayflower. She linked this to the American love of freedom, because "The Pilgrim Fathers left Britain because they were persecuted for their religious beliefs."
I had to tell her that was not quite true, they were Plymouth Brethren, one of those weird sects. Their women were not allowed outside without head covering, which was their business, but unfortunately they liked to harangue neighbours wives, daughters and servants who followed a less extreme version of the Bible, calling them whores and ungodly women. They also liked to disrupt the worship  of other sects too, because of course their way was the only way.
Eventually they were close to running out of towns that would accept them and landowners would greet them by pointing a blunderbus their way and saying "Get orf moi laaaaand." They took the hint.
In this sect (and they haven't changed much in the intervening 400 years,) women could not sit down and eat with their husbands, they had to serve the men and only when the men had finished could they eat.
So yes, there have been some Christian sects that treated women appallingly.
My family were never religious (well Grandad Thorpe was excommunicated from the Catholic faith for marrying an "unbaptized heathen," (I'm rather proud of that,) but my wife is from an anglo - Irish Catholic family and she remembers how scandalised the congregation would be if any adult woman turned up for mass without a hat or headcovering
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jan 18, 2018 - 4:17pm
Marko
 
You're right, Why ?
 
People like to GENERALIZE. Why ?
 
Because it's easier to find a group to belong to.
The Burghal Hidage Added Jan 19, 2018 - 2:12am
A charmed life you've led Mr. Thorpe :)
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 19, 2018 - 10:57am
MHS, lash you for criticising Jewish culture, why would I do that? Namaste my friend :-) .
(One of my grandmothers was from India - not sure if the was a Zoroastrian or Hindu by birth.)
There are some very good points in your comment, particularly the one about people who have been abused being sensitive to uninvited touching. Some people are simply unreceptive to tactile gestures and we should all be aware of that.
In the 1990s in Britain there was a craze for hugs and air kissing. I've no problem about being touched but though going along with it because pulling back when someone leans in to pretend kiss you would be bad manners I hated it because it seemed so false to me. We are all different, but women should learn in school (feminist theory classes?) or from parents that they must be confident enough to find a way of saying, "Please don't touch me like that, it makes me uncomfortable."
But as you say, most men are decent, which is the point the french celebrities and Matt Damon are making. It's also true that most women are not needy, manipulative harridans and most of us tend to get on quite well with the people we meet. It is the demonization of men, particularly white men that is not acceptable.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 19, 2018 - 11:01am
Stone Eater, I think we can all agree that sexual predators of both sexes are minorities, but the way a minority of women are now trying to portray ALL men as abusers must be resisted.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 19, 2018 - 11:08am
 Burghal, charmed life? No I just got lucky - career wise by twice being in the right place at the right time, love - wise ... well if I knew the secret I'd be putting it in bottles and selling it on e-bay.
Ari Silverstein Added Jan 19, 2018 - 11:09am
“And as in the latest outburst of politically correct madness names of the accused were made pubic before any legal process was initiated. The legal rights of those accused have been ignored by the very people who usually scream most loudly about "rights".”
 
I fail to see the connection between political correctness and the #MeToo campaign.  One who is politically correct uses a word like African American instead of nigger.  There are obvious thousands of examples of political incorrectness, the #MeToo campaign is a different issue. 
 
Is it illegal to accuse someone of sexual misconduct?  If it’s legal (which I suspect it is) what right of the accused has been violated?  All of these men are innocent in the eyes of the court, as one is innocent unless proven guilty in a court of law.  Where we agree is in the notion that men are being branded as sexual predators without due process.  However, I don’t see a resolution, so long as we make the internet legal, things like the #MeToo campaign will exist.  It’s up to the populace not to equate accusation to guilt.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 19, 2018 - 11:53am
wsucram15,
Thanks for all those nice things you said about me but I really have to pull you up on one. You assume that as I was "in a position of power over women." If you think someone acting as a manager in a large corporation has "power" over his staff, when there are human resources, unions and other agencies capable of offering support, you are vastly uninformed. In fact, as a matter of principle I never deliberately touched any female staff at all (shoulders accidentally touching when in a confined space is unavoidable). In the situations my work placed me, as part of an external management consultancy teams, it's best to keep a professional distance then no accusations of favoritism will stand up when redundcancy notices are being handed out. You should never equate your prejudices with facts.
Here's something you could learn a lot from, though I doubt you will read it even though it is by a black woman, as it challenges your prejudices. Oh and BTW I'm not a pig, I'm a rat - born in 1948, look it up.

Oprah Winfrey’s Shameful Comparison of Black Women’s Jim Crow Era Rape to that of Rich White Women’s #MeToo…
by Charlie Peach posted on Medium (extract)
 
I have to admit that I purposely ignored the Golden Globes and all of its Hollywood Rich Women’s #MeToo moments. However, I was more than insulted listening online this morning to Oprah compare the violent and brutal pain of rapes and even murders that Black women endured by racist white men during Jim Crow to that of rich white women in Hollywood and business.
The brutal gang rape of Recy Taylor by six white men in Alabama is not comparable to the alleged sexual assaults that rich white women (often times purposely endured for fame and money) are fighting in their new #TimesUp and #MeToo movements. To compare the savagery and racism that fueled the many rapes and abuse that Black women had to endure by the hands of racist white men to that of rich white women’s new fight for dominance and power is a shameful erasure, even for Oprah. These rich women weren’t raped, beaten, bloodied and left to die because of hate and white power, these rich women chose silence out of fear of their careers and wealth, Black women who chose silence during Jim Crow etc., chose silence out of fear for their very lives and that of their families.
Read more >>>
 
The thing is Jeanne, apart from treating this thread as if it is all about you, you equate the kind of abuse Charlie describes in her article with that of the Hollywood attention seekers. Nobody, absofuckinglutely NOBODY, in this thread has suggested rape or any kind of physical abuse is OK so you are well off target with your anti - men rants. What is being said repeatedly is that merely looking at a woman and raising one's eyebrows appreciatively is not the same as rape.
mark henry smith Added Jan 19, 2018 - 12:21pm
I have always liked to give pats on the back. I was raised with the idea that anyone who does something well deserves a pat on the back. I was taught that when you leave someone close to you, you give them a hug. I was taught not to hit somebody if they touched me inappropriately by accident, or what could be assumed accidentally, or harmless fun. I was taught to fight to the death if someone did something sick to me or another.
 
Sex is complicated. We don't know what someone is into until they're into it, because some people say no to have you take them to yes, and some people say yes to have you take them to no. I've not known where to begin and where to stop with numerous women, so I've made mistakes.
 
Being ridiculously sensitive, I've hated myself for causing pain where there could have been love, maybe. Who knows?
 
Ari is correct. How can we stop people from expressing their opinions in this free-for-all that is the internet? Are we going to sue everyone who makes a false accusation? Do we even know what a false accusation is when the definition of abuse and harassment is like the blind men with the elephant?
 
What muddies this issue is that these men have been paying settlements for decades to get out of legal embarrassments. It makes them look guilty as hell regardless. And this idea that it's all the same and should be treated the same is really the argument to do nothing, like the argument in anti-abortion circles that all abortions are the same no matter what the circumstances. It's not just bad law, it's bad morality.
 
Oh, and thanks Burghal   
Donna Added Jan 19, 2018 - 4:53pm
Ari where I see this as harmful to the men. They will not work. No studio will not show or hire a Harvey  Weinstein  now. Proven innocent.. Still will have that label. What bothers me as a Lady.. Term used loosely.. Lol.. Is simple 
How little value one must have  of herself to think the only way to get to the top.. Is on top of another person.  Rather disgusting. I mean.. Who wouldn't want that perfect dream job.. Me. Hell I wanted to be an airline stewardess.. Travel for free.. Wasn't in my cards 
But I'm happy..                       Ian.. Good article.. Touchy subject.. But great one.. 
Donna Added Jan 19, 2018 - 4:54pm
BTW.. I agree  with the French ladies.. 
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 20, 2018 - 1:08pm
MHS, you got it right, "when you leave someone close to you, you give them a hug.when you leave someone close to you, you give them a hug."In business we British prefer to leave the hugs to Mafia men and the kisses to the French. And approaching the first coupling in a relationship is like walking on a beach where there is quicksand.
Since I was young there had been a decline in the level of respect people have for each other and a disappearance of good manners.
Having said that, no matter how much the progressives moan and how hard they wish for a politically correct utopia, there will always be powerful men who abuse their position, like Harvey Weinstein and - dare I say it - Bill Clinton, and women need to be aware of that and take some responsibility for keeping themselves safe.
And as Stone Eater pointed out, in everyday life there are men who on seeing a girl dressed provocatively, cannot control their urges. Women should be aware of that and depending on the situation exercise some restraint. It's simply a case of risk management.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 20, 2018 - 1:23pm
Ari: You say "I fail to see the connection between political correctness and the #MeToo campaign.  One who is politically correct uses a word like African American instead of nigger."
The scope of politically correct thinking is rather wider than that. Have you not heard of the witch hunt that followed Toronto professor Jordan Peterson's defence of free speech. The 'liberal' students on campus tried to get him fired for defending people's right to oppose such things as same sex marriage, mass immigration and affirmative action.
Prof. Germain Greer, a British academic and old school feminist was pilloried and had her lectures boycotted for saying that men who have the snip and tuck are not real women, they are not biologically female, do not have ovaries nor a womb and can never menstruate, the things which define a female.
British online news mag Spiked shows how the 'liberal' fascists have gone too far, and the authorities have given in to them too easily in this podcast titled, "When We Instantly Believe Women we Invite Them To Lie"
John Minehan Added Jan 20, 2018 - 1:28pm
Legally, any unconsented physical contact is battery.  Most are inadvertent, bumping into someone.  Other's are innocuous: spontaneously hugging people is common in sports. 
 
Patting a woman on the fanny is probably not innocuous if not invited.  That should not be seen as acceptable.  The woman involved, at minimum, should tell the guy NOT to do that and maybe report him to HR if it is in the work environment.
 
On the other hand, HW's actions were repulsive and widely known.  The "widely known" part is the troubling part.   Something went badly wrong with a culture that should have found the whole thing anathema.
 
One thing that may be being lost; his openly assaultive behavior (allegedly doing things like physically throwing people out of meetings) never prompted any reported sanction, civil, criminal or "street justice."
 
 
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 20, 2018 - 1:33pm
Donna, thanks for your intelligent comment. I like this part: "How little value one must have  of herself to think the only way to get to the top.. Is on top of another person," although I think we have to accept that people view morality differently (I'd be a hypocrite if I denied having been promiscuous at one stage in my life, although male promiscuity is viewed more sympathetically than when women "put it about.") So I think these actresses and such actually have a high opinion of themselves but are willing to use anything they can to get where they believe they are entitled to be.
The one who really made me want to puke was Oprah Winfey, standing there delivering that mealy mouthed condemnation of Weinstein when everybody knew she had been a close friend of his for decades. Then it turned out a few days later she had actually acted as a procurer for him.
She can't expect us to believe she didn't know, everybody knew. People made jokes about him at award ceremonies.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 20, 2018 - 1:36pm
Xanadu, I did not know about the body armour but I saw the pictures of Al Franken and he clearly was not touching the woman. This illustrates how the hysteria has taken hold in this case.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 20, 2018 - 1:40pm
Xanadu, I agree, there was bound to be a backlash, it's a great pity it has taken so long in the English speaking nations. Mass media is controlled by corporate interests however and suppression of open debate will serve their globalist agenda well.
People power has already won a few victories. I'll write about that in another article.
mark henry smith Added Jan 20, 2018 - 1:53pm
I have to think that with Franken there was something deeper that he didn't want coming out, because nobody who's done so little would give up so easily. But we are coming to a point where someone is going to have to set some guidelines. I ask now, before hugging, after a woman threatened to call the cops when I hugged her. She was my ex's stepmother. She accused me of being a child molester based on a story my ex's sister spread around. I'd forced a kid to take off his wet pants and put on dry ones, in front of other adults. That's what happened. That's all.
 
The entire feminist movement, and so much of the stuff we're seeing now, seems determined from the outset to destabilize relations between groups in the US. Who started the women's lib movement? I have written about this in my novels because it was the basis for much of the conflict in my parents' relationship, these differing ideas of what marriage should be, what sexual obligations are part of the deal, or are they at all?
 
What I'm seeing now is a landscape where only women will be permitted to be the aggressors. And I'm cool with that, because I've always been pretty inept when aggressively pursuing anything, like this is me aggressively pursuing a writing career.  
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 20, 2018 - 3:00pm
MHS, you are probably right on Al Franken. There are many cases in which a celebrity, politician or business owner has been slandered and despite having an unopposable case for a lawsuit have not taken it to court. One such was the case of a Conservative politician, Leon Brittan, who was a top lawyer as well as a Member of Parliament who was widely rumoured to have an 'unhealthy interest' in very young boys yet there was no prosecution. Eventually New Jersey born, Scottish raised (beat that for credentials,) maverick comedian Jerry Sadowitz did a joke about it on a late night TV show. The joke was so explicit nobody could see how Brittan could not sue, yet there was no case. Brittan obviously feared what might come out in court more than he feared the public embarrassment.
Sadowitz likes to bait the establishment but he's no friend of politically correct posturing either and loves to riff on taboo subjects in his act.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 20, 2018 - 3:04pm
John, agreed - it is the fact that Winestain's antics were public knowledge that makes the whole thing so creepy. But with the people who have promoted sexual licence on some issues now flipping and coming over all puritan, how is Joe Ordinary supposed to know where he stands.
John Minehan Added Jan 20, 2018 - 3:30pm
I'd never heard of Jerry Sadowitz, but it appears he is another contribution to world culture from Glasgow, home of my paternal Grandfather. 
Eileen de Bruin Added Jan 20, 2018 - 7:35pm
Sand and protection therefrom seems a very practical explanation for the head and face coverings originating from the Middle East. Makes sense. Of course, it then served another purpose of modesty and perhaps,is now intrinsic to that, although not necessary for protection from the weather in more clement climes.
 
It is hopelessly out of date, though and only serves to,cloud the issues surrounding desire and provocative clothing.
 
Perhaps, in the grand scheme of things, the battle of the sexes  keeps redefining the boundaries.
 
The current battling keeps redefining the boundaries and bringing into question what, exactly, we are searching for.  There remains desire and pursuit without which the human race would cease.  There is fun and love and happiness but there is also a much darker side,of control and power.
 
What are we searching for?
John Minehan Added Jan 20, 2018 - 7:45pm
"What are we searching for?"
 
You answered your own question, "There is fun and love and happiness but there is also a much darker side,of control and power."
 
It is all of the above.
  
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jan 21, 2018 - 11:24am
Weinstein, Horowitz, Kushner, Greenspan, Kissinger, Spielberg, Zuckerberg...
 
...when one reads the press of the US here or even looks for information about the country, he might think it concerns Israel.
Stone-Eater Friedli Added Jan 21, 2018 - 11:26am
Sorry, I forgot NetanYahoo. Hmm....no, that IS Israel. Fuck off, Mr. Alzheimer ;-)
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 21, 2018 - 11:29am
John M. You'll perhaps know then that Glasgow, like Liverpool and most major sea ports has a culture of its own. Glaswegians (Weegies) regard themselves as separate from the rest of Scotland. And the comedy of Jerry Sadowitz is the verbal equivalent of the simplistic Weegie solution to most problems, "Gie him yin wi' the heid, Jimmy."

It's amazingly effective, throughout the rest of Britain few people dare to give Glaswegians any trouble.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 21, 2018 - 11:54am
Eileen, "What are we searching for?"
Few of us know until we find it.
On the subject of face coverings in middle eastern culture, I have never heard the "protection from sand" reason before but what is documented and has been confirmed to me by friends and colleagues from the middle east and India is that pre Islam, the main religion was Zoroastrianism in which a caste system similar to the Hindu caste system operated.
In this caste system it was deemed that the lowest in society were unfit to look at the faces of high caste people, especially women. And so wealthy and noble women would go veiled in public to avoid being soiled by the gaze of the kaffir classes. Desert nomads, male or female, of the Sahara and Arabian peninsula would wear a normal silk or cotton scarf pulled up over the nose and mouth for sand protection, visit Morocco, Mali or Sahel, you'll see this in practice, (don't visit Algeria - Donald Trump knows what that country is.)
An Indian friend, Kalpana, who is not much darker skinned than me, though she is full Indian, explains this is due to her Brahmin caste. Apparently pale skin is a status symbol in some parts of India, nothing to do with wanting to be white or any similar claims 'liberals' might make, it shows that people are not field workers.
Yeah, I know this stuff sounds weird, but for the people of the middle east, India and north Africa, it works.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 21, 2018 - 12:04pm
Eileen, on your final point there is a darker side to the human psyche, one that drives some people to become addicted to the idea of exercising power over others.
So often I see from the left, the latest proposed panacea for the world's ills and these always seem to start with the phrase, "If everybody would ..."
Therein lies the problem with leftist and socialist thinking because of course 'everybody' will never do the same thing. One of the most ridiculous thinks I see is people talking of diversity when they don't want to see people expressing themselves differently but people of different skin colours and ethnic origin all thinking the same way and doing the same things.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 21, 2018 - 12:31pm
Someone up the thread a way asked if it is not illegal to accuse someone of sexual misconduct how can the rights of that person have been violated.
How wonderful it must be to reach adulthood and remain so innocent. First sexual misconduct and rape are very different things. Harvey Weistein has been accused of rape as have several other celebrity figures. And these people have been pronounced guilty by commentators in mainstream media, thus making it almost impossible (if any evidence of their crimes is ever produced) for a fair trial with an impartial jury.
If the sexual misdemeanour is of the nature of putting a hand on someone's leg or saying "nice tits Titania," then that is what the French women are talking about, it's being taken out of proportion. If a man touches a woman's boobies or puts his hand up her skirt however, this is a crime, assault, and if reported must be investigated
 
I don't know what the legalities are in the USA, but if a false accusation of such a crime is made in Britain,  apart from grounds for a civil law suit for libel or slander, several crimes have been committed. Wasting police time is one, perverting the course of justice another. And then, though it is rarely used, there is defamatory libel, which is making a false statement with the intention of materially harming somebody.
And if trying to get someone jailed for something they did not do is not a violation of their rights, then nothing is.
 
John Minehan Added Jan 21, 2018 - 12:34pm
"And the comedy of Jerry Sadowitz is the verbal equivalent of the simplistic Weegie solution to most problems, 'Gie him yin wi' the heid, Jimmy.'"
 
Which sounds like Granddad would have been very at home in South Troy in the late 18th Century!  "South Troy Against The World!"
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 21, 2018 - 12:38pm
Stone Eater, someone on Minds posted a composite pic of people accused in this witch hunt. I'll try to find it again. All of them are 'liberals' who have publicly supported Obama and Hillary, and most I know to be jewish while the rest look Jewish (ah but then I look Jewish, looks can be misleading.)
John Minehan Added Jan 21, 2018 - 12:43pm
British law is WAAAAAAYYYYYY more amenable to defamation suites (particularly against "public figures) than American Law, under New York Times v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254 (1964) which holds that defamation against a public figure requires "actual malice," an untrue statement that is made knowingly or through gross negligence.    
John Minehan Added Jan 21, 2018 - 12:54pm
"If the sexual misdemeanour is of the nature of putting a hand on someone's leg or saying "nice tits Titania," then that is what the French women are talking about, it's being taken out of proportion."
 
Technically, in American Law, any unconsented intentional physical contact with another is the Tort of Battery and any comment or action that puts another in fear of unpleasant unconsented contact is the Tort of Assault. 
 
Usually, there has to be palpable injury to recover. 
 
In the case you describe, however,  say if the man intentionally touches a woman's leg and says, "Nice gam, ma'am," the woman might be able to sue him civily for both assault and battery, as the touching and the comment might reasonabley make her fear more unpleasant impending contact. 
 
If there is a case or not is a function of the circumstances. 
mark henry smith Added Jan 21, 2018 - 1:14pm
We are all searching for love, in my humble opinion, love being feeling protected, feeling worthwhile, feeling respected, feeling vital. The difficulty in finding love is that devious people know what people want and will offer it to them on a contingency basis. Now that you like that, you must do this to keep it, and this is something demeaning, or despicable. That is the choice so many have to make, and I call that moment the snap moment. It's the moment you can't snap back from and if you can't it leads you down a path towards perdition.
 
We have a terrible government. It is not making all citizens feel protected. I'm really sorry for DACA and immigrants, but a law has to be a law, and a wall is a wall of nothing, not worth the breath it takes to build an argument about it. Not with the realities of our southern border. Our government has become a hostage to special interests, when it should be the power removing the irrational control special interests have.
 
Women say they haven't been protected, so what do they do? They create a special interest, when the real goal should be to protect all who don't feel worthwhile, respected, or vital. Our inner cities are ground zero for abuse in education, housing, healthcare, nutrition, and sexual abuse, and our rural communities. To make this argument about relatively entitled, white women isn't illegitimate, but is narrow in giving people what they search for. And most men search for meaningful relationships with women, with sex being just one important part of the equation.   
Eileen de Bruin Added Jan 22, 2018 - 4:08am
It should be completely acknowledged and absorbed on this thread that, in the end, the woman who is the receiver of the male organ, cannot “win”an equality claim or desire.
 
Quite apart from the notoriety from the metoo fanfare, a recent spotlight on the lives in Silicon Valley and their regular orgies during which drugs, alcohol and sex are the means to self enjoyment and new highs.....if women take part and they are also work colleagues, peers, even superiors...and they join in to the degree reported, taking it from behind whilst also in the oral cavity, erm, then there is just no going back to a work relationship of equals.  
 
The women will and do lose out.  The men, on the other hand, are just matching their male peers and having lascivious times with the willing women.  They are fine on their career paths. Respect is gone between the sexes. Back to the issue in hand.
 
There is just no such thing as sexual equality. And there is no way that a woman can defend herself when used and abused. Going along with the social norms or the norms of your working environment, be it in Silicin Valley or the Casting studios, doesn’t make it right.
 
mark henry smith Added Jan 22, 2018 - 12:47pm
Wonderfully expressed, Eileen. The party culture is a way to get women to lower their defenses so men can take advantage of them sexually. It just doesn't work the other way. Most men are happy to be taken advantage of sexually by women. They pray for it.
 
We might disparage the Muslim culture for how it treats women, but I see no less brutality and misogyny here. Maybe somebody should make a liberal myth movie about gender relations based on Get Out.
 
I don't agree with the premise of Get Out. Maybe in a Jewish family, like the comments of that owner of the Clippers being a reality check, but in most liberal white families I've known, there is very little racism. The movie appeared to be a device for painting all with a broad brush and making liberals feel guilty about trying to identify with people of color.    
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 22, 2018 - 1:21pm
John M: British courts are quite popular with American celebs and global Corporate Pirates for libel suits because under British law if you publish anything defamatory anywhere it may be read by associates of the plaintiff in Britain, you can be sued in a British court. This worked fine when an obscure satirical mag. in for example South Africa published a story, because if the mag was not sold in UK nobody in UK would be likely to read it. But the internet changed all that, anything published anywhere in the world can be read anywhere in the world.
As for US law, I'd guess there are some very profitable (for lawyers) over the exact meaning of "actual malice." In UK courts, so long as you can show you made it clear the comment at issue was only being repeated, you can say almost anything about anyone.
"The chief accountant allegedly had his fingers in the till."
"It is widely rumoured that the Bishop of Brigcaster buggers boys."
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 22, 2018 - 1:51pm
MHS my feeling is that certain interest groups have for around fifty years been pushing the line: "You can do just as you like and the government will clean up your mess," and people have forgotten that ultimately we are responsible for ourselves. It is up to us if we decide to put ourselves at risk and are willing to accept the consequences. Thus if the rich dicks of the Oxford University Dangerous Sports Club want to slide down a mountain in the Swiss Alps on a Grand Piano and they are willing to pay the medical bills, fair play to them.
I don't go out at night a lot these days, but 20 years ago, when my wife and I stayed in hotels a lot and the 'clubbing' scene was big, we'd see in city centres many young women dressed even more provocatively than the whores in the red light area. I'm of the view that no woman is 'asking for it' unless she is literally asking for it, but surely those girls knew they were putting themselves at risk.
In an ideal world we should be able to do as we wish in total safety, but we all have to accept, as my generation always has, that the world we live in is far from perfect.
As political activists have been encouraging the idea that we can do as we wish, so governments have progressively abandoned us. Policing on the streets is being cut back everywhere. While noises are made about the war on drugs, lax immigration controls have let the drug cartels into western nations, you want a slave in London, Paris, Berlin, and maybe New York or L.A.; you just have to find the right domestic staff agency. They're not called slaves of course, but if they run away they will not get far without their passport of any funds, and in many cases cannot go to the authorities because the gang back home that arranged their 'immigration package' know where the rest of the family live.
Rather than being less careful about how we handle ourselves we need to be more careful than our parents and grandparents were. And yet, as you say, driven by primal instincts people search for love, success, fun, and are to ready to lower their defences to get what they want.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 22, 2018 - 2:45pm
Eileen, what an erudite and perceptive comment, thank you.
Have to admit I knew nothing of the coke fuelled orgies in Silicon Valley, and the female staff getting the rotisserie treatment. Perhaps I was too quick to describe those tech nerds as 'wankers'.
When I was still working in Information Technology the custom among European firms when holding a 'sales event' was to hire in escorts rather than expecting female staff to fulfill that function.
Read the public relations material of the tech corporations however and they are oh so politically correct and eager to promote equality.

As you say, when a woman indulges in such games with colleagues will never be treated with the respect due to equal colleagues. Women will inevitably be the losers of this 'anything goes' morality that seems to have emanated from California in the 1960s. I seem to remember the hippy lifestyle spawned some pretty rotten treatment of women back then.

I'm not by any means a prude, in my life, and with consenting partners, I've done almost everything it's possible for two people to do, but it was always in private. I respect myself and have respected my girlfriends but increasingly I see we have lost that respect for each other that should be an essential part of the mating game.
mark henry smith Added Jan 23, 2018 - 2:20pm
Never date a writer. I say that from experience. I am going to make sure to tell my next girlfriend that I have all of the experiences I need from past relationships to write all of the books I have time for and it will be the truth. Whether she believes me or what she reads will decide my fate.  
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 24, 2018 - 3:56pm
I was finished with this thread having tried bravely to stretch it to 100 comments but fallen a few short. I just wanted to add the thoughts, published yesterday, of veteran feminist Germaine Greer to the mix.


Germaine Greer criticises 'whingeing' #MeToo movement, saying in the 'old days' women would 'slap down leering men'...
from The Daily Telegraph



Germaine Greer has taken aim at the #MeToo movement, describing it as "whingeing", and claiming that women "spread [their] legs" for a role in a Harvey Weinstein film.
The 78-year-old was named Australian of the Year in Britain during a gala event at Australia House in London and spoke about her views in an interview before the event.
She said that "in the old days" women would "slap down" men who assaulted or harassed them, explaining: "In the old days, there were movies - the Carry On comedies, for example - which always had a man leering after women. And the women always outwitted him - he was a fool.
"We weren't afraid of him and we weren't afraid to slap him down."
"If you spread your legs because he said 'be nice to me and I'll give you a job in a movie' then I'm afraid that's tantamount to consent, and it's too late now to start whingeing about that,"  said the feminist writer.
However, she also said this doesn't excuse the behaviour of predatory men like Harvey Weinstein. Read more >>>



 
Eileen de Bruin Added Jan 25, 2018 - 7:55am
Erm, have you all noticed the outing of the Presidents’ Club at the Dorchester and the waiting lady staff debacle?  Grope and grabbed en er.....
 
All for charity though, the top dogs were all there...all for good causes but the women get groped and degraded in their obligatory black and tight fitting dresses and high heels.
 
Maybe we should face the facts, put the light of understanding into it as a common male-driven given of testicular energy, and enlighten all of us. This is not about men versus women this is about the human condition in balance.
 
Drop the versus, acknowledge the status quo and throw light and education and development into the mix.....
 
Or what?
 
 
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 25, 2018 - 10:42am
Ellen, you should not believe everything you read in the press or hear on TV. The girls at the President's Club event were hired as not as waitresses but as "hostesses", a well known euphemism in Britain for ............... to avoid triggering snowflakes shall we say "ladies of negotiable affection," in other words they are members of the oldest profession. Their fee was "£200 for a night's work, casual waitresses are paid at best minimum wage £7.50 an hour but often work for less because they are not permanent employees.

To help you understand what goes on at these events I'll repost a comment by someone using the name Clavdia Chauchat in the thread under a report of the kerfuffle:
 
"I've done quite a few of these 'events' when I was funding my uni course. The worst ones are the motor racing and exhibition lot. What I can say is that these people making all this fuss don't speak for me. It always seems to be the ones who know nothing about the girls or the job or the money, that are the ones making all the fuss. Why can't they just sort their own lives out ad leave me and my friends out of it. They don't speak for everybody, just for themselves and what they think people SHOULD behave like. They are just so interfering. I'm sick of being treated like an idiot when it's clear that it's them who are the idiots. They're really bossy as well. Sometimes you just say you agree with them just to get them off your back." (link to the comment thread on President's Club)
 
And as many people commenting in that thread pointed out, the goings on at women only parties are probably worse though there are no paid "hosts" around and the waiters and bar staff are treated as fair game. You should read some of the lurid tales male strippers tell.

I have seen singers who ventured to close to the tables occupied by 'hen parties' being seriously molested and having clothing removed. The worst that happened to me when performing was I had my dick grabbed as I was walking offstage. Did I feel demeaned, objectified? No, I was amused but did not take up the offer which accompanied the gesture..
 
Have you ever looked closely as at classical  friezes or medieval murals. Bawdiness in nothing new, it has been with us forever. The new puritanism however is the creation of hypocrites who are trying to rewite history to advance their agenda of control freakery.
On with The Bacchanal.
Eileen de Bruin Added Jan 25, 2018 - 5:10pm
Seems like an argument for keep things as they were.. status quo, it works for me so go away.
 
Times for changes are always received with resistance. Time to up the game, pun intended.
Ian Thorpe Added Jan 26, 2018 - 1:04pm
Eileen, it has now emerged that the original story was fake news, a sensationalist piece by two women who posed as hostesses. Another hostess at the event, a sex worker but a more honest person that the reporters has now revealed the truth, the hostesses were engaged for a private party after the main event, they knew what kind of entertainment they were expected to provide and were happy with that. And the journalists were also well aware of what kind of event they would witness and were just looking for a sensational story to make money and grab attention for themselves. 
So yes I would say, keep the status quo and let's marginalise the puritanical liberal authoritarians, a small but noisy minority who want to impose their views on everybody else. Ask yourself does your position support freedom for women, or only for women who are prepared to accept your world view.
 
Eileen de Bruin Added Jan 27, 2018 - 9:28am
Ian, then your world view is precluding the facts, alongside the number of people who are hastily disassociating themselves with this institution and behaviour.  
 
My world views keep on changing - never to be fixed again, as this tends to build in prejudices.
 
This is not just a case of disagreement or different perspectives on an equal playing field;  this is your arguing that what is clearly black is white.
 
The status quo changes as we evolve and move onwards and upwards, not downwards.  Aspirations and higher achievements and developments are, intrinsically, going higher into the wider perspectives.
 
Inclusive but not bullshitting the people who are subject to this inappropriate behaviour.  Acknowledgement is the beginning of creating fundamental and - for everyone in the world - meaningful changes towards mutual respect.
 
Check your intent.