Who should have the vote?

A hundred years ago today some women were given the vote in Britain!! That is something to be celebrated.

Suffragettes -Annie_Kenney_and_Christabel_Pankhurst

Unfortunately I don't think it is quite the triumph it should have been. Firstly it should never have taken so long and secondly it was only partial.

 

Some colonies in Australia and some parts of the USA gave limited voting rights to women in the 19th Century. Finland was the first European country to give limited rights to women. Then Russia, Norway and Denmark. Britain, for all of its fight for human rights, lagged behind. However, they did not lag as far behind as Greece, Monaco and Switzerland. They did not give voting rights to women until as late as 1952 and incredibly 1971.

 

What a terrible state of affairs. Women were seen as second-class citizens. They had few rights.

 

In Britain those rights had to be fought for like all rights before them. They were not given lightly. The Suffragettes and Suffragists all campaigned and fought for women's rights and eventually they won.

 

I have been reading a lot about why women weren't considered equal. Partly that was religious, partly it was because they were viewed as physically and emotionally inferior and unstable. They were considered to be intellectually inferior and hysterical. All this seems unbelievable now but some people still believe this. In many parts of the world women are most definitely seen as second-class citizens, even possessions of males - of no more worth than many other possessions.

 

I have also been reading other views of who should be eligible to vote?

Some people still believe women should not have that right. Saudi Arabia only gave women suffrage in 2011. They will be able to vote in 2015 for the first time. The Vatican City is the only place they are not allowed to vote. Wow!!

 

Some people in the USA think that Black people should not be allowed to vote. They actively try to obstruct their registration.

 

Some people believe that people should have to have an IQ test before being allowed to vote. They claim that democracy is too important to allow unintelligent people to have a vote.

 

Some people believe that only people who have an understanding of politics and democracy should be allowed the vote. An understanding of politics is necessary to understand what the philosophy of the different parties is and what type of society they would build. So there would have to be a test to give people the right to vote.

 

Some people believe that people should be able to vote at sixteen and some only at twenty one. Some argue that sixteen is too young to understand the ramifications and that brains have not developed until twenty one. Others argue that sixteen year olds are very aware, they have the right to consent to sex, get married, get a job, join the armed forces, to drive, pay taxes and should be allowed to vote.

 

There are new battlefields being drawn up on human rights and democracy. What do you think?

Comments

opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2018 - 4:06am
Wouldn't it be nice if there was real equality everywhere? I do not, as some people infer, want uniformity of equality of outcome. I want everyone to be treated the same regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, colour, creed, class or size. If someone is good enough to do the job they should be given the chance. A true meritocracy on a level playing field. It's a dream.
Leroy Added Feb 7, 2018 - 5:05am
I used to enjoy the conversations with an octogenarian, former school principal.  She was highly intelligent, logical, and like a second mother to me.  She never missed a single opportunity to vote.  It was her duty.  I had always assumed up until that point that women voting was a good thing.  But, she shocked me one day when she said, "The world started going to hell in a handbasket when they gave women the right to vote."  I thought about it for a while.  Maybe she was right.
 
But, no, I don't think we should take away the right of women to vote.  I do feel that all voters should have a stake in the elections.  It is quite easy for people to vote gifts for themselves, especially when someone else pays for it.  If you are going to vote something that belongs to me to yourself, it is only right that I have an opportunity to take something that belongs to you.  It is a stable system.  Today, we have a one-sided system that has to lead to the welfare state.  Sooner or later the system runs out of other people's money.
 
"Wouldn't it be nice if there was real equality everywhere?"
 
I am confused by this statement.  You say that you are not for equality of outcome.  Your unqualified statement implies that it is exactly what you believe.  You don't seem to mean equality of opportunity.  Most Americans believe in equality of opportunity.  We can never be equal.  It is a foolish dream.  We could never define what equal is.  What is equal or equality in your view?
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2018 - 5:08am
Leroy - I do mean equality of opportunity - a level playing field - a true meritocracy. Sorry if I was unclear.
Doug Plumb Added Feb 7, 2018 - 5:45am
Public education should include history, law and philosophy. It includes none of these things. History classes are nothing but lies and law is not taught anywhere, not even in law schools. The last big book on jurisprudence and the law by John Salmond, a famous book ceased to be taught in the early 70's.
  Legislators are the ones we vote for, they write laws.
  I recall back in the early 70's when I was in public school. We debated Roe vs Wade when I was in grade seven or eight. The whole class was very interested and I believe young people have a natural propensity to want to learn about law and philosophy.
  In the early part of last century, kids in high school read Plato and Aristotle. This knowledge is knowledge voters cannot do without.
  I suppose now that combinations of us are qualified to vote. If that combination knows history, law and philosophy. I only know two of those things. I have only read history as it pertains to the machines of ww2 and some particular aspects of ww2.
 
 
Doug Plumb Added Feb 7, 2018 - 5:47am
Opher, The equality now being sold to us has nothing to do with meritocracy.
Doug Plumb Added Feb 7, 2018 - 5:54am
USA is NOT a democracy!!!!
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2018 - 6:11am
Doug - Public education should include history, law and philosophy.
For once I agree with you. We teach that in English Schools. You'd better move to England.
And what is this equality being sold to you?
Well the USA is a Republic run on representative democracy isn't it? As much as anything can be a democracy in a two party system with biased news, orchestrated by shady people and run by big business for big business.
Rex Added Feb 7, 2018 - 8:49am
Opher,  Giving women the right to vote seems like a victory for women. Sadly much like many other "victories' handed to females I have noticed that after the first flush of victory - some candidates chosen by women winning elections things return to normal.
 
I came of age in the 1970's when women were supposed to finally have the strictures men imposed removed. The Pill, abortion and education, and the right to decide how to live their lives without a man's approval or guidance.
It did not last very long gradually we have reverted for the most part to the same submissive women we were in my grandmother's day.
 
I had high hopes for our ability to vote. I am still a staunch defender of the right to decide on who represents us in government.
 
Over time I have noted that candidates are sold like products. People tend to vote for the candidate whose commercial moves them to vote. NOT for what that person stands for and what that person has actually done while in public office for those who have elected them.
 
In my articles on voting I have stated that I am required to do independent research on the candidates. Many times my choice does not win because his commercials did not move enough voters to give him or her the job.
Still at the end of the process feel that I have done my best to try to elect a person who wants to do the right thing after being elected.
 
In many ways society still gives the appearance that women are not  second class people in the countries where they have been given the right to cast ballots. I have noticed that women still defer to men in many areas we are back sliding.  
Jeffry Gilbert Added Feb 7, 2018 - 8:52am
 'It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes' - Stalin
 
Dino Manalis Added Feb 7, 2018 - 8:56am
Women have come a long way in the West, countries need to realize they're missing out on their potential without women!
George Kocan Added Feb 7, 2018 - 9:34am
Voting is a privilege not a "right."  If it were a right, children could vote.  When my kids were in elementary school, around 13 years old, they knew more than many adults about the issues of the day and could certainly cast a reasonable vote.  But, that is not the point.  Several issues are at play.  Adulthood carries with it responsibilities which children do not have.  Therefore, restricting the vote to mature persons is a reasonable policy.  One must also consider that a vote represents.  In the US, the Supreme Court has ruled that one vote represents one person.  This is wrong.  The Court is not a legislative body and has usurped its jurisdiction.  In American tradition, the head of the household represented the family, which could vary in numbers.  A child could not be expected to head the family and thereby vote.  But, with that ruling, the authority of the father in the family was unconstitutionally destroyed, leaving the doctrine of "one man, one vote" in place.  Whereas before, the father had to take into consideration all the members of the family, now he only has to consider his own selfish goals as does the rest of the family dwell on their own goals.  It is an institutionalized, political atomization and selfishness that works against the health of the commonwealth.  And that is exactly what expanding the privilege of voting to women has done, created a society at war with itself.  Today that war is played out between socialists of their friends and traditionalists.  The socialist program denies rights to property and self-determination in favor of an immoral state which has the power to control all aspects of life.  So, it is no coincidence that the early suffragetes were socialists, and women in the US who worked against the Constitutional amendment to expand the vote to women knew about it and rejected the scheme. I must add that the Constitutional amendment came before the court ruling on "one man-one."  The amendment set the logical premise for the subsequent ruling.  As a group, women do not vote guided by principle.  They vote guided by emotion, having little interest in reason and constitutional issues.  That is another reason why they should not vote.  However, their votes over the years have driven the federal government to grow, unconstitutionally, and to deconstruct the checks and balances of our constitutional system.  In short, women voting is nothing to celebrate and a great cause for mourning.
TexasLynn Added Feb 7, 2018 - 9:43am
My main concern over who vote is the abject ignorance (of issues, of candidates, of civics, etc...) of many/most of those casting ballots.  Unfortunately, I also have no solution.  Voter literacy tests would be abused by the corrupt.  It gets back to how you identify the idiots, what measure you use, and who gets to be the judge.  It can't be done fairly or objectively.
 
There are two things we can do to at least limit the idiot turnout.
 
First, abandon the idea of increasing voter turnout (in general).  Those you are having to goad to the polls are probably the least informed.  Those who show up voluntarily are probably the more informed.  I've always assumed those who don't vote are idiots, and logically idiots would vote opposite me. :) So, I'd just as soon they stay home and watch Oprah and Jerry Springer (and smoke dope and play video games).
 
That idea flows into not making it too easy to register and/or vote.  It should be easy, but there should be some effort involved.  Too easy, and again you're saturating the system with idiots.
TexasLynn Added Feb 7, 2018 - 9:44am
All the efforts put into increasing voter turnout, should instead go to increasing voter education and awareness of the issues.
Rex Added Feb 7, 2018 - 10:02am
Lynn and George I believe Voting is a right privilege and duty that Americans do not seem to understand. I think we would be much better off if we imposed term limits  - even back in Thomas Jefferson's TIME HE FELT THAT A LEGISLATOR SHOULD NOT CONSIDER THE JOB A LIFE TIME POSITION.
 
We have a cynicism within the country who feel that their vote does not matter because of the failure to have new people serving in the legislature. We have forgotten service in the legislature is supposed to benefit our fellow citizens not make us rich and powerful.
 
I would like to see an Amendment that would set term limits for elected positions - then perhaps those serving would actually vote for things that would help their constituents rather than look at the special interests - who-actually fund the majority of political campaigns for office.
 
George Kocan Added Feb 7, 2018 - 10:27am
Overall, the votes of women have not done well for the US.  For example, it has not stopped the US from entering horrible wars in the last century.  Yet, this is one of the claims that feminists have made, that women running a country would bring social harmony and eliminate wars, because of the innate, nurturing features of the female psychology.  In other contexts, feminists deny the existence of any innate features of female psychology.  The so-called feminine perspective has brought us nothing but social confusion, division and strife.
Doug Plumb Added Feb 7, 2018 - 11:01am
Opher re "As much as anything can be a democracy in a two party system with biased news, orchestrated by shady people and run by big business for big business."
 
This is not how the USA is being corrupted. Its not the Gorden Gecko's that are ruining it, its the people who run the banks and write the rules for which the Gordon Gecko's play by.
  You could go to one of the people who owns the central banks at their house, put your hand between the cushions of their sofa and find more money than the Gordon Gecko's can even imagine. These are the people writing the laws and shaping public education.
  Public education teaches that the blame is on capitalism, it is not the fault of capitalism, its the socialists at the very top. They orchestrate global warming, over population myths and only they can pull off a 9-11.
  The problem is that people must let this happen because they don't have the tools to stop it. Only knowledge and application of laws can stop it and only that can bring the guys with guns fully onboard with our side.
Doug Plumb Added Feb 7, 2018 - 11:03am
re "iving women the right to vote seems like a victory for women. Sadly much like many other "victories' handed to females I have noticed that after the first flush of victory - some candidates chosen by women winning elections things return to normal."
 
Socialists always deliver a bucket of shit but its painted to look like a bouquet of flowers. As much as things fall down when not supported, this is also true. Socialism IS satanism.
Dave Volek Added Feb 7, 2018 - 11:19am
I think Lynn makes an interesting point.
 
Those you are having to goad to the polls are probably the least informed. 
 
Some time in my past, I was an investor in blue chip stocks. For about five years, I did quite well with my dividends and stock price increases (Donald Trump might want to take credit for that!). 
 
So every year, I would get an annual statement from each company I owned a small part of--along with a voter card to vote my share for or against the current people slated to serve on the board of directors.
 
I have to say that I knew very little about these people listed on the slate. It probably wouldn't have been that difficult to get their resume with the internet, but this tells me very little about how they approach business and work with other people. To really know these people, I would have to spend a lot more time gathering information--probably more time than my investments were worth.
 
So I never voted in these board elections. I left this decision to those who believed they knew enough about these people to make a wise decision. In my mind, casting a vote would have been irresponsible on my part.
 
Tubularsock Added Feb 7, 2018 - 12:32pm
For Tubularsock it boils down to this. The gatekeepers choose who can run and then provide the money to make it happen.
 
The field is created based on those that are malleable to the financial investors and thereby are simply tools for the investors desires and benefit.
 
The public are trained to believe that their vote counts ...... and it does ...... but doesn’t make any real difference because the candidates are pre-picked for the benefit and control of the elite who buy their candidates.
 
And thereby, either winner provides the same results to their benefactors.
 
That is why nothing changes.
 
Do you think your vote can change the power and control of the BANKS?
 
Do you think your vote can change the continued policy of WAR?
 
Do you think your vote can change the underlying principle of Capitalism .... GREED?
 
NOT GOING TO HAPPEN ........ NOT BY THE BALLOT BOX AT ANY RATE!
 
The gender of the voter makes no difference, it is the control structure that makes the difference. And YOU, as an individual, have no power at all because the system has trained you from birth to be asleep.
 
And the amazing thing is that YOU don’t think you are asleep ....... there’s the rub!
Dave Volek Added Feb 7, 2018 - 12:52pm
Rex
 
We have a cynicism within the country who feel that their vote does not matter because of the failure to have new people serving in the legislature. We have forgotten service in the legislature is supposed to benefit our fellow citizens not make us rich and powerful.
 
Western democracy is not set up to for us to call the most capable citizens to serve in governance. In my book, I describe 12 limitations that prevent this, leaving the field only for those of us who are overly ambitious for power and influence. You may want to read about Tiered Democratic Governance.
 
Tubularsock
And YOU, as an individual, have no power at all because the system has trained you from birth to be asleep.
 
And the amazing thing is that YOU don’t think you are asleep .......
 
I have to agree with you 100% on this one. Even the more open-minded thinkers here on WB believe the reforms in government they are looking for can still be achieved from within the western democratic model.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 7, 2018 - 12:53pm
Opher G.  Yes, "Some people in the USA think that Black people should not be allowed to vote. They actively try to obstruct their registration."  Slavery ended by 13th Amendment 12/6/1865, Citizenship Rights 14th Amendment 7/9/1868, and Voting 15th Amendment 2/3/1870.    However; segregation and Jim Crow Laws countermanded these Amendments.  Negroes didn't actually vote in the mostly Democratic Party controlled states.  It took nonviolence marches that raised awareness to a level where Jim Crow was not acceptable.   The 1960's civil rights laws that I will get into created laws that restated the Amendments and the Federal government started to prosecute.  The majority of Americans have changed but as with all societies their are long tail people that will never change.  This is not a reflection on the society but a reflection of human variation that follows the typical distribution curve.  Opher, your talking about the long tail of society and openly obstruct black registration.
 
I think what is more hideous is that the the thinking that made Jim Crow and segregation never actually ended but just moved underground.  Welfare hand housing discrimination started before the civil rights marches.  "Of the programs that remain, one is singled out for blame when it comes to the disintegrating inner cities: Welfare, which has earned the special wrath of those who blast the Johnson administration for starting the long trend toward welfare dependency among the poor.

Yet, even there, the program most severely criticized, Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), didn’t begin under Johnson.

It started under President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s "New Deal" in the 1930s, which authorized the program to make payment to widows with children.  Since then, AFDC has been expanded to cover all unmarried parents with children. . . . According to the House Ways and Means Committee "Green Book" for 1990, about 40% of parents collecting AFDC were black, 38% white and 17% Hispanic. Blacks make up about 12% of the population, while Hispanics make up about 9% of the population. . . .   " [F]amilies currently on AFDC, well over half will remain dependent for more than 10 years, many others for 15 years or longer.

Studies also show a correlation between crime and broken homes. It isn’t so much the crime committed by the members of the broken home itself, says Robert Sampson, a sociologist at the University of Chicago, as it is the impact of broken homes on the community."   http://fumento.com/economy/greatsociety.html
 
"New Deal's Public Works Administration led to the creation of segregated ghettos.  Its policy was that public housing could be used only to house people of the same race as the neighborhood in which it was located, but, in fact, most of the public housing that was built in the early years was built in integrated neighborhoods, which they razed and then built segregated public housing in those neighborhoods. So public housing created racial segregation where none existed before. . . .  The second policy, which was probably even more effective in segregating metropolitan areas, was the Federal Housing Administration, which financed mass production builders of subdivisions starting in the '30s and then going on to the '40s and '50s in which those mass production builders, . . . [FHA] guaranteed loans at lower interest rates for banks that the developers could use to build these subdivisions on the condition that no homes in those subdivisions be sold to African-Americans."   http://www.npr.org/2015/05/14/406699264/historian-says-dont-sanitize-how-our-government-created-the-ghettos
 
The housing segregation ended in the 60's because it is impossible to hide but welfare driven destruction continued.  “[T]he welfare state has done to black Americans what slavery could not have done, the harshest Jim Crow laws and racism could not have done, namely break up the black family, ” said Walter E. Williams, a George Mason economist and author of “Race and Economics: How Much Can Be Blamed on Discrimination?”
 
So who remained in Senate that didn't support Civil Rights laws of the Eisenhower and Johnson administrations for decades.  Without the almost total GOP vote in both houses the bills would have never became law. Dixiecrats in the US Senate during the 1964 Civil Rights and 1965 Voting Rights Act. These Dixiecrats/Democrats in the Senate voted NO!
Dixiecrat – Senators
• (D)VA Harry F. Byrd, 1933-1965
• (D)VA A. Willis Robertson, 1946-1966
• (D)WV Robert C. Byrd, 1959-2010
• (D)MS John C. Stennis, 1947-1989
• (D)MS James O. Eas
Doug Plumb Added Feb 7, 2018 - 12:54pm
If there was a widespread basic understanding of laws then we wouldn't need these filthy alphabet agencies to clean things up. We would have citizen grand juries and the men with guns would back us up because they would know the law too.
We would not need these rotten courts to enforce law. Law does not come from courts and more than math comes from mathematicians.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 7, 2018 - 12:54pm
So who remained in Senate that didn't support Civil Rights laws of the Eisenhower and Johnson administrations for decades.  Without the almost total GOP vote in both houses the bills would have never became law. Dixiecrats in the US Senate during the 1964 Civil Rights and 1965 Voting Rights Act. These Dixiecrats/Democrats in the Senate voted NO!
Dixiecrat – Senators
• (D)VA Harry F. Byrd, 1933-1965
• (D)VA A. Willis Robertson, 1946-1966
• (D)WV Robert C. Byrd, 1959-2010
• (D)MS John C. Stennis, 1947-1989
• (D)MS James O. Eastland, 1941-1941,1943-1978
• (D)LA Allen J. Ellender, 1937-1972
• (D)LA Russell B. Long, 1948-1987
• (D)NC Sam Ervin, 1954-1974
• (D)NC Everett Jordan, 1958-1973
• (D)TN Albert Gore Sr., 1953-1971
• (D)AL J. Lister Hill, 1938-1969
• (D)AL John J. Sparkman, 1946-1979
• (D)FL Spessard Holland, 1946-1971
• (D)FL George Smathers, 1951-1969
• (D)SC Olin D. Johnston, 1945-1965
• (D,R)SC Strom Thurmond, 1954-1956,1956-2003
• (D)AR John McClellan, 1943-1977
• (D)GA Richard B. Russell, Jr., 1933-1971
• (D)GA Herman E. Talmadge, 1957-1981
• (D)TN Herbert S. Walters, 1963-1964
http://freetriptonorthkorea.tumblr.com/dixiecrat-myth
Doug Plumb Added Feb 7, 2018 - 12:55pm
Democracy isn't a tool to save anything, its to ensure that the sludge rises to the top because sludge votes mostly.
  A vote cast now is a voter that believes this phoney national debt is real. Widespread knowledge of the law would make that dissappear through grand juries and men with guns backing us up.
  Law becomes decentralized when well known.
TexasLynn Added Feb 7, 2018 - 12:58pm
Rex >> Lynn and George I believe Voting is a right privilege and duty that Americans do not seem to understand.
 
I think we agree.  And like any right, we can choose to exercise it or not.  When we do, we should do so responsibly and part of that responsibility is realizing when we shouldn't (AND when it is imperative that we must).
 
We take way too much for granted... we could easily lose these freedoms that hardly even exist in much of the world.
 
Rex >> I think we would be much better off if we imposed term limits...
 
Amen.  I have gone even further and advocated for a clean slate ever 25 years.  In years ending in 00, 25, 50, and 75 EVERY member of Congress is swept out of office and never allowed to hold such office again.  I would be OK with applying that to the judiciary as well.  (See: Hey, Hey We’re the Monkeys)
TexasLynn Added Feb 7, 2018 - 12:58pm
Dave >> I think Lynn makes an interesting point.
 
Thank you, Dave... I too have done exactly what you describe concerning board elections, not that my measly little shares would have counted that much. :)
 
I generally go further and make a point not to vote in political races (usually local) where I'm not informed enough.  I wonder what percentage of the voting public does that.  Not enough, I assure you...
 
With that in mind, that is why position on the ballot is important (and often hotly contested).  The first name on the ballot can expect a several percentage points advantage over other candidates.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 7, 2018 - 1:02pm
Voting rights is just an outward action for an inward class view of the world that places group as second class or even third class humans.  Islam religions has a hierarchy of human classes.  Christianity religion has one of the least hierarchy.  I am not talking about the people that lead a religion or nation.  This is a very small group that has a hierarchy that is related to function in the organization.  
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 7, 2018 - 1:05pm
Error in reference for Dixiecrats
 
  http://newsninja2012.com/the-democrats-big-lie-dixiecrats-switched-to-republican-party-withracistagenda/
Dave Volek Added Feb 7, 2018 - 1:20pm
Lynn
At the provincial and federal elections, I usually spoil my ballot as my signal that we need to change from western democracy to the TDG. I  don't believe there is that much difference in the political parties.
 
And in our last federal election, I was quite pleased that the leaders of all three political parties seemed to be excellent statesman and would represent Canada well (or as well as western democracy can provide).
 
For our next provincial election, I am seeing one party as better than the others. So  I will break my "spoil the ballot" tradition first time in 25 years.
 
I live in a town of 14,000 people. I'm a bit of an introvert, so I don't really get out that much. But I usually know enough about a few people running for town council that I think I can make a somewhat intelligent choice.
 
 
TexasLynn Added Feb 7, 2018 - 4:42pm
Dave >> At the provincial and federal elections, I usually spoil my ballot
 
Interesting... during the last Presidential election I got a lesson in just how hard they make it to really have a protest vote in Texas.  I voted for "None of the Above".  I didn't want to just spoil my ballot, there were many other races I did want a voice in.
 
I knew at the time that Texas (along with many other states) does not tally or document any of these protests votes.  It's as if you didn't vote in that race.
 
Dave >> And in our last federal election, I was quite pleased that the leaders of all three political parties seemed to be excellent statesman and would represent Canada well (or as well as western democracy can provide).
 
It is my custom to sport a bumper sticker of my preferred candidate leading up to the election.  This year I special ordered one that read "Giant Meteor 2016... Just End it Already".  I prominently put it next to my "Secede" Texas Flag.  It's still there today. :)
 
Obviously, I was less than impressed with the choices in 2016.  I do want to have an open mind, and thus will give Trump a chance to sway me the next time around (as I would any candidate/official).
 
Dave >> I live in a town of 14,000 people.
 
A metropolis (x3) compared to my home town and where I now work.  I reside much further out in the woods away from the actual town.
 
Dave >> I'm a bit of an introvert, so I don't really get out that much.
 
LMAO.  I work for a touch-feely company where the hug a lot.  It's my only complaint.  So I'm known as the company introvert.  At the last Christmas party; I bought a t-shirt that read... "Have you had a hug today?  Good, don't touch me!"
 
Dave >> But I usually know enough about a few people running for town council that I think I can make a somewhat intelligent choice.
 
My example of skipping votes more applied to a county level when I lived in Harris Co (Houston).  That is much less the case today.
Flying Junior Added Feb 7, 2018 - 4:51pm
First, abandon the idea of increasing voter turnout (in general).  Those you are having to goad to the polls are probably the least informed.  Those who show up voluntarily are probably the more informed.  I've always assumed those who don't vote are idiots, and logically idiots would vote opposite me. :) So, I'd just as soon they stay home and watch Oprah and Jerry Springer (and smoke dope and play video games).
 
That idea flows into not making it too easy to register and/or vote.  It should be easy, but there should be some effort involved.  Too easy, and again you're saturating the system with idiots.
 
I appreciate your honesty Lynn.  Your prejudicial and somewhat judgmental take on things is a refreshing change from the outright lies the true fighters in the nationwide republican effort to suppress the vote spit through their teeth when the lily-livered talking heads on NPR allow them to explain and justify their actions to limit votership.
 
I like a solid voter turnout.  Republicans seem to vote in lock-step.  They vote for their grandparents who are incapacitated in nursing homes and they take elections far more seriously than do the apathetic democrats and independents.  More voters better reflects the true will of the people.  Voter suppression is a tool for the right.  Always has been.  Always will be.
 
Oh and we can still thank the ladies for bringing us JFK.
TexasLynn Added Feb 7, 2018 - 5:50pm
FJ >> I appreciate your honesty Lynn. 
 
Really!?  I'm skeptical, because few people really do. :)
 
FJ >> Your prejudicial and somewhat judgmental take on things is a refreshing change from the outright lies the true fighters in the nationwide republican effort to suppress the vote...
 
OK... well, now you’re just adding (pulling out of thin air actually) villainous motives and actions to my statement and position.
 
How, does not caring how many (what percentage) of people vote equate to suppression?  I am in no way physically preventing them from doing anything.  I’m just saying I don’t care to beg, plead or goad them to participate.
 
Your assertion against Republicans regarding voter suppression is also spurious.  It’s a standard, divisive leftist talking point; intent on spreading misinformation. 
 
FJ >> I like a solid voter turnout. 
 
And I like a solid informed voter turnout.  I will concede that ignorance favors the left. :)
 
As for increasing voter turnout, I'm OK with it; on an partisan or interest group level.  I just don't want to see government resources wasted on the effort.  Announce when the election is, make sure everything runs smoothly, and minimize the fraud.  If 10% vote, if 90% vote... I'm OK with it.
 
FJ >> Republicans seem to vote in lock-step. 
 
Whatever... (eyes rolling)
 
FJ >> They vote for their grandparents who are incapacitated in nursing homes and they take elections far more seriously than do the apathetic democrats and independents. 
 
Again whatever... Voting for anyone other than yourself is a crime and should be prosecuted.  There would be a hell of a lot more Democrats in jail than Republicans if that were enforced.
 
Taking elections seriously should be encouraged and considered a civic duty.
 
Apathy applied to anything so serious (as voting) should be discouraged and looked down upon (in a judgmental sort of way).
 
BUT, we (the right, anybody really) can't hold a candle to the left when it comes to voter fraud.  The graveyards are full of Democratic voters; as are the buses going from Democratic polling place to polling place.
 
FJ >> More voters better reflects the true will of the people.
 
Fair enough... but people don't decide elections... voters do.  I just want THAT pool to be better informed.  Ohhh... but that's suppression, I'm sure.
 
FJ >> Voter suppression is a tool for the right.  Always has been.  Always will be.
 
It is when you define any effort of stop voter fraud as voter suppression.
 
Now voter fraud?  That's a tool of the left.  Always has been. Always will be.
 
Comment like they vote in Chicago... early and often.
 
Flying Junior Added Feb 7, 2018 - 6:03pm
You're a kick.  Enjoyed the bit about graveyards.
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2018 - 6:27pm
Rex - yes it is sad that leaders are sold like commodities and campaigns run on soundbites and personalities and not policies.
I do think women need to stand up for themselves more.
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2018 - 6:28pm
Dino - I agree. There's a lot of untapped potential there.
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2018 - 6:32pm
George I can't agree with any of that. It sounds like patriarchal superiority to me. Women are equal and should be treated equally. Perhaps we should just give women the vote and make them take into account the feelings of the family?
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2018 - 6:34pm
Doug - well at least the socialists try to grow flowers with all the shit the capitalists produce.
Neil Lock Added Feb 7, 2018 - 6:35pm
If you're going to exclude certain adult people from voting, isn't it fair that you should also exclude them from paying taxes? For you are, in essence, excluding them from "society" - whatever that word means.
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2018 - 6:37pm
Lynn I agree with you on more education. Informed voters are what is needed.
Doug Plumb Added Feb 7, 2018 - 8:07pm
re "Doug - well at least the socialists try to grow flowers with all the shit the capitalists produce.  "
 
Cell phones ? Cars ? what shit ? Its your crony capitalists (socialists) - the lefties that give us all the wars and destruction. We fight wars so your loving socialist banks can print everyone's money.
George N Romey Added Feb 7, 2018 - 8:07pm
When we begin to exclude certain people voting based upon a perceived belief about their intelligence we have entered the days of Big Brother.
Flying Junior Added Feb 7, 2018 - 10:09pm
Thank you George.
TexasLynn Added Feb 7, 2018 - 10:35pm
FK >> You're a kick.
 
Kicker?  Genius?  Crazy?  It’s a fine line… :)
 
FK >> Enjoyed the bit about graveyards.
 
The truth can be funny and scary at the same time. :)
 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 
Opher >> Lynn I agree...
 
Opher!  Quit it!
 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
George >> When we begin to exclude certain people voting based upon a perceived belief about their intelligence we have entered the days of Big Brother.
 
George, I agree.
 
Please understand that I while lament voter ignorance and apathy, I in no way advocate for their exclusion.  Just not in begging them to vote.
 
"Voter literacy tests would be abused by the corrupt.  It gets back to how you identify the idiots, what measure you use, and who gets to be the judge.  It can't be done fairly or objectively." -- Lynn J.
 
Neil >> If you're going to exclude certain adult people from voting, isn't it fair that you should also exclude them from paying taxes?
 
Neil!  Maybe you've stumbled onto a solution!!
 
Maybe we can proffer incentive for some to give up the right to vote.  I even think this could be a private endeavor… a simply legal contract.
 
Again, it would be the idiots who gravitate to the offers.
 
First, there are many other rights and benefits associated with being a citizen; so, I think your initial price is on the high side. 
 
I’d say it’s a buyers’ market, so I wouldn’t quite offer exclusion from all taxes right off the bat.  I’d say you would get plenty of action by initially offering … oh let’s see … a coupon for a free muffin. :)
 
And why stop there?  We could make offers for other rights… speech, bear arms, association. 
 
Let’s get the ball rolling.  Opher!  FJ!  I’ll give either of you a coupon for two muffins for your WB comment rights! :)  First come first serve! :)
 
Flying Junior Added Feb 8, 2018 - 2:34am
Its not a right, it's a privilege.
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2018 - 8:35am
Dave/Lynn - while it is true that many of the uninformed do not vote there are also a number who won't vote on principle because they are disillusioned. Way back in time my landlord replied, when I asked him if he'd voted - 'Heavens no - I wouldn't want to encourage them.'
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2018 - 8:37am
Neil - no exclude them from voting and make them pay more taxes - sorry I'm being flippant.
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2018 - 8:39am
Lynn - did I miss out on the muffins? I think I've got a right to comment on the thread. I suppose I could delete everybody else so nobody else has.
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2018 - 8:42am
Lynn - If I sell you my rights to vote on here I could open up a different account and still vote - sort of take the muffins and run!
Won't they be stale by the time they get to me?
Is this a moral tactic?
TexasLynn Added Feb 8, 2018 - 9:38am
FJ >> Its not a right, it's a privilege.
 
We're not splitting hairs here.  Rights sound more valuable than privileges... I use the term "right" more as a marketing tool. :)
 
Opher >> while it is true that many of the uninformed do not vote there are also a number who won't vote on principle
 
So they could game the system; keeping principle AND gaining free muffins!
 
Opher >> Lynn - did I miss out on the muffins?
 
No, FJ is holding out too.  Maybe I misjudged the value of the commodity I wish to purchase.  :)
 
Opher >> I think I've got a right to comment on the thread.
 
You do!  And surely you have the right to sell that right.
 
Opher >> I suppose I could delete everybody else so nobody else has.
 
On your posts, that is also your right.  I now notice I neglected to offer a muffin for that right as well.
 
Opher >> If I sell you my rights to vote on here I could open up a different account and still vote - sort of take the muffins and run!
 
I'm hoping my lawyer would catch that in the contract.  I promise it would be pages and pages long of legalese.
 
Opher >> Won't they be stale by the time they get to me?
 
No, no, no... I offered a coupon for muffins.  Not actual muffins.
 
Opher >> Is this a moral tactic?
 
Absolutely! :)
 
Dave Volek Added Feb 8, 2018 - 11:41am
Lynn
 
Keep spoiling your ballot if that is where you conscience leads you. I think this is a more responsible civic action than staying away from the polls.
 
Just because the spoiled ballots are not officially recorded does not mean they have no effect. There are people counting these things. When the spoiled ballots reach 10%, the media will pick up on this social movement.
 
Just think if we could convince the 50% who don't vote to spoil their ballot. The 2016 election would look like this:
 
None of the above: 100m & 400 electoral votes.
Ms. Clinton: 65m & 72 electoral votes
Mr. Trump: 62m & 56 electoral votes
 
That would send a message!
 
 
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2018 - 2:22pm
Lynn - I read it carefully - you definitely offered actual muffins.
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2018 - 2:24pm
Dave - it would send a message! However, I think most of those people don't vote out of laziness and not out of political protest.
Donna Added Feb 8, 2018 - 2:39pm
Opher,
Some is lazy.
Some is for lack of caring about whom they have to chose from. 
Some as the old gent next door says is due to the fact , these are his words, - We have not had an actual candidate that would make a good President, in years, they are all interested in nothing but lining their donors pockets. He states that we lost all hope when we let big money take over elections, and let all stay in office forever. Not how this was set up to be. So the older ones are not happy with a system , that in my opinion they let happen. 
The younger ones are fighting,but feel like they have no power. 
Most feel the electoral vote is a mute old fashioned way of doing things, some are trying to find a way into the political arena, within local politics, but have a long way to go.
Me, i am glad i get to vote, see no reason why anyone would blame a women for all of the issues in this world, let alone because we can vote..but hey who am i, but a little voice in a small community..
Thanks for the chance to state my and an old gents opinion. 
Eileen de Bruin Added Feb 8, 2018 - 3:16pm
Opher, anyone and everyone should be able to vote. Only this way is any balance struck. Unfortunately, the two party system divides and rules and they both end up the same as in one is with the hard face and the other with the soft face...of in our cases capitalism.
 
But, we get the politicians we deserve only because of the systems we allow to continue. Democracy is only that if it is policed and watched. The suffragettes fought for and died for the cause of balance and equal merit and representation.
 
We let them down by becoming arrogant and self satisfied at the expense of the weaker in society. It is about balance, not rigid equality.
 
Informed voting requires informed and balanced media.
 
Clever people do not necessarily make right decisions based on social balance, but on their own interests, so it is not only about iq. Ultimately, it has to be about balance and respect.  Equality is a rigid measure which is not possible to fulfil. We can offer equality in terms of allowing men and women the same rights to vote; balance comes from developed and wider perspectives from the whole community’s needs.  Do we vote for our own desires or for the benefit of the whole?
 
If a society’s sophistication is judged on how it treats its weakest, what does that say about our contemporary voting systems I wonder? Survival of the fittest seems to be the motto.
 
 
TexasLynn Added Feb 8, 2018 - 3:31pm
Opher >> Lynn - I read it carefully - you definitely offered actual muffins.
 
Oman.  This is explaining so much about all of your posts in comments of the past. :)
 
And I quote... "Opher!  FJ!  I’ll give either of you a coupon for two muffins for your WB comment rights! :)  First come first serve!" -- Lynn J
 
Opher >> I think most of those people don't vote out of laziness and not out of political protest.
 
I would add apathy... but laziness also applies.  Laziness is why they don't do a lot of things? :)
George N Romey Added Feb 8, 2018 - 3:37pm
In the last election I voted 3rd party. I’m fed up with the 2 party system. I’m done wasting my time voting because it’s twiddle dee or twiddle dum. I think more Americans are feeling this way.
 
Maybe Trump is changing the dynamic but for now he seems to be caught up in political hocky pocky and not dealing with it well. They did the same kind of crap to FDR but FDR seemed to beat his enemies at any turn.
Ben McCargo Added Feb 8, 2018 - 3:55pm
As a card-carrying, "centrist" liberal, I feel everyone should have the right to vote.  Living in a city that has historical low voter turnout, I see what happens when the same party gets elected time and time again.  I think people don't vote because yes, they may be misinformed but there's also apathy.  Such hopelessness is a larger driving force than we all want to admit.  It's what got Trump elected.  For me, to combat the likes of those like Trump, you increase your rolls.  Some call it begging, I call it voter registration.  Call me a punk but the open invitation for rebellion that some are possibly selling (maybe I'm reading sh*t wrong) is a tad dangerous and scary to me.  Like i said, call me a punk...  
Ben McCargo Added Feb 8, 2018 - 3:58pm
And Opher, meritocracy + level playing field = nothing.  I don't think you can have both simultaneously.  You're right; it's a dream, unfortunately.
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2018 - 6:15pm
Donna - that sums it up for me - we don't get candidates that we can vote for.
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2018 - 6:17pm
Eileen - they should all get the vote but should they be educated more? Should voting be compulsory?
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2018 - 6:17pm
Lynn - yeah - apathy is a big one.
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2018 - 6:18pm
Lynn - there you go - I misread it. My imagination had muffins in the post.
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2018 - 6:19pm
George - so how do we get out of a 2 party system when bucks count?
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2018 - 6:21pm
Ben - the idea of revolution is scary. It kills.
I can't see why you can't have a level playing field and meritocracy. A level playing field leads to a meritocracy in my book.
George N Romey Added Feb 8, 2018 - 7:41pm
Opher revolution but no guarantee we’d get anything much better.
TexasLynn Added Feb 8, 2018 - 10:59pm
Opher >>  there you go - I misread it.
 
I’m attributing that to a lot of your past posts/comments as well.  It explains so, so, much.  :P
 
In this case it’s subconscious.  You know you want that coupon!  I could be replying to all these comments for you right now!  You can still post… just not comment.  But don’t worry about Autumns rules.  I’ll cove it. :)
 
Opher >> the idea of revolution is scary. It kills.
 
Which is why I advocate for an amicable separation of the union.  We just all agree to break up and go our own way.  The Peoples Republic of America and the United States of Texas!  It would work.  It could be done. :)
 
George >>  revolution but no guarantee we’d get anything much better.
 
Yes, but where we're heading IS much more probably of being worse.  I say we take our chances (with the amicable split).
 
Eileen de Bruin Added Feb 8, 2018 - 11:35pm
Opher, yes, it should be an obligation but..
 
as Rex stated: Giving women the right to vote seems like a victory for women. Sadly much like many other "victories' handed to females I have noticed that after the first flush of victory - some candidates chosen by women winning elections things return to normal.
 
it is indeed the case because women are just as responsible as men for a system and a culture. 
without informed education and medua, people will vote for the ones “sold” to them through the media. 
education in schools is sublimely lacking in fundamentals...definitely I cannot remember anything of note at school in the sixties and seventies other than some great drama and field trips. I was bored and totally inchallenged.
 
Rex, your point is the most important and well made about women. Indeed, women can create war in terms of their relationships with their kids and the wider communities. Women and children are not alway innocent of perpetrating the same old model.  Perhaps this is why it survived doggedly.
 
opher goodwin Added Feb 9, 2018 - 3:23am
George - I prefer a bloodless evolution, even radical change. Revolution is a horror.
opher goodwin Added Feb 9, 2018 - 3:25am
Lynn - I don't think breaking up unions is any answer. It merely results in additional costs, replication of roles and less power.
opher goodwin Added Feb 9, 2018 - 3:33am
Eileen - I think we see that all too often. For some reason women buy into and perpetuate the misogyny and violence. In terms of burqas and hijabs it is the women who for some insane reason support it. Likewise with FGM. It is women who carry out the atrocity. Women bring up their sons to be violent and aggressive bullies.
It is time that these regressive women sorted their act out and stopped supporting these systems. 
Certainly schools in the sixties were tedious and boring. Teachers were very poor and often violent and aggressive, sometimes brutal. They effectively turned young minds off. Education was all about knowledge - forcing it in and testing it was there.
That is why I went into teaching. I wanted to change that. Education should be about positive relationships. It should be fun and expansive. It should turn on young minds to wonder, awe and investigation.
That certainly happened in England before this government got in and started taking it back to the 1950s. I don't think they want enquiring minds.
Leroy Added Feb 9, 2018 - 12:08pm
"Neil >> If you're going to exclude certain adult people from voting, isn't it fair that you should also exclude them from paying taxes?
 
Neil!  Maybe you've stumbled onto a solution!!"
 
We once kicked up a fuss and had a big tea party over taxation without representation.  Today, we have representation without taxation.  Hmmm....maybe those that don't pay taxes shouldn't vote.  What stake do they have?
David Montaigne Added Feb 9, 2018 - 12:17pm
Many valid points here - voting should be a privilege, not a right.  I don't think one should vote if ignorant of the issues - I believe in a qualification test.  I think those on welfare should have to give up the right to vote (for politicians that will provide more welfare) in exchange.  But I'm so cynical about the whole process, I doubt it really matters - and we've been discussing the same things at - http://writerbeat.com/articles/20264-Should-Everyone-Have-the-Right-to-Vote-
Stone-Eater Added Feb 9, 2018 - 12:22pm
In order to have a functioning democracy you need:
 
a. basic education
b. creating curiosity
c. further learning
d. NEUTRAL media
 
If one is missing you can't even start thinking about democracy.
Eileen de Bruin Added Feb 9, 2018 - 1:31pm
Neutral media.  ?
 
Oh dear.
 
Herein lies the major issue!
Eileen de Bruin Added Feb 9, 2018 - 1:33pm
sorry, Stone,  I mean to acknowledge you 
Stone, on this.  Now there is a thought:
 
neitrality and acknowledgement.
 
Currently, I am in Swaziland, an absolute monarcy.  Very interesting indeed.
 
great place to be, by the way.
opher goodwin Added Feb 9, 2018 - 1:40pm
David - I see your points. But it is a privilege and a right isn't it? It certainly was hard fought for and deserves to be treated with more respect.
I am most cynical of the whole system. We are constantly presented with a system that presents two lousy options all of whom represent the same big business. Money talks.
I'm not sure how we change that.
opher goodwin Added Feb 9, 2018 - 1:42pm
Stone - good to hear from you and good sense as usual.
Education - and political education - as well as unbiased media are certainly key. Spot on.
opher goodwin Added Feb 9, 2018 - 1:45pm
Eileen - I agree - a neutral media is a pipe-dream.
opher goodwin Added Feb 9, 2018 - 1:46pm
Eileen - I'd love to visit Swaziland - it's on my list!
Eileen de Bruin Added Feb 9, 2018 - 2:27pm
Opher, part of a wider trip to SA. Very interesting and quite enlightening. Poor people but very open in spite of the old monarchical rules.  I am learning thatnthese people are open to the world in spite of their ancient and anachronistic governance. It is nice to be here in and amongst the avocado trees..the humid and forest climate..indeed the cradle of the human being...of life. There is a rhythym which induces deep sleeps. nothing logical, it just is. Goodnight....
Donna Added Feb 9, 2018 - 4:19pm
Opher  Why can't we take back our Government.  This is what I was taught when young.. The people pay for the Schools roads infrastructure  police forces all forms of Government.  So if our taxes pay them.. Do they not work for you and I. Civil  jobs.. Means all can go at the will of those who pay them. Naive. Yes I am.. But it is logical to me.  Lynn.. George Anyone care to explain. Isn't that how it was intended to be.. 
George N Romey Added Feb 9, 2018 - 4:32pm
Yes Donna. In the US we were hoodwinked in the 80s. Americans were fed a line that globalization, deregulation, elimination of Depression era banking laws and relaxing of anti trust laws along with technology would produce huge amounts of widespread wealth. Ultimately it benefief the very few but by then money and power completely took over the 2 party system. There’s no going back without a major social movement.
TexasLynn Added Feb 9, 2018 - 5:04pm
Yes Donna. No free society can endure forever.  This fact has to do with human nature gravitating toward submission and tyranny.  For us, this started about a century ago.  Our founding fathers gave us the best start they could with limited government checked and balanced by three branches; but over time we abandoned that model for a bigger and more intrusive system.  We essentially voted ourselves more and more bread and circuses with no regard to the costs (fiscally or in relation to freedom).  (With all due respect to George)... There is no going back... period.  It's gone.  200+ years?  We had a good run.
 
Thanks for the inquiry… sorry to be a downer.  All that said, I choose to place my hope and joy elsewhere… thus my otherwise sunny disposition. :)
Donna Added Feb 9, 2018 - 5:04pm
OK George.. I. Am a peaceful gal. So without a complete rebellion against the Government. How do we change all this for the better with out a war. Is it possible or are we simply to far gone. I don't like to lose hope. But will admit I am.. 
George N Romey Added Feb 9, 2018 - 5:22pm
Donna I’ve lost hope. Just look at Washington DC now. Nothing of material value gets done. We’re a very heavily indebted society. Good jobs have become scarce.
 
For now look after family. The rich and powerful beat the middle class.
Donna Added Feb 9, 2018 - 5:32pm
George  family is what I have been watching over. Older folks need us.. They don't get this crazy world.. 
opher goodwin Added Feb 9, 2018 - 6:28pm
Eileen - It sounds great. I love Africa - cradle of humanity.
opher goodwin Added Feb 9, 2018 - 6:30pm
Donna - Yes the government is meant to be working for us. In reality they work for the lobbying corporations and wealthy who pull the strings and deploy the finance. Money talks.
opher goodwin Added Feb 9, 2018 - 6:32pm
George - I agree - I don't know there is any going back unless people stop falling for the media story. Money talks. The campaigns run on fear and negativity. Independents who can't afford the price can't get their message heard. Bucks buy votes.
opher goodwin Added Feb 9, 2018 - 6:33pm
I guess the only way to get fairness is to take money out of the campaign. How would you do that?
Eileen de Bruin Added Feb 10, 2018 - 12:12am
Opher,
the media moguls rule and they manipulate the minds of the people.  Campaign money comes from the same mogul group as well as the brainwashed lower echelons.
 
He who controls the press controls history and present.
opher goodwin Added Feb 10, 2018 - 3:24am
Eileen - that is how it works. It is incredibly successful. The establishment thought their days were numbered when they were forced to give ordinary people the vote. They found the way to manipulate us.
Smoke Added Feb 10, 2018 - 3:58am
Opher-  Democracy is like a medicine for the treatment of society and I would prefer the personality test to check the ideological elements of individual i.e corruption,racism,greed,cruelty and criminal.
"In My Opinion" Personality test is more appropriate than IQ,because IQ test could support the Evil Genius mindset,which will be harmful for the democracy again and again...
opher goodwin Added Feb 10, 2018 - 4:06am
Smoke - But who would run the test? Who would check it? Who would set it? Who would decide?
Smoke Added Feb 10, 2018 - 4:22am
Judiciary has ability to run,to check,to set and to decide...
opher goodwin Added Feb 10, 2018 - 4:30am
And who selects the judiciary? Who pays them? Who appoints them?
Smoke Added Feb 10, 2018 - 4:37am
@ Opher. Yes, I can understand the reality behind your points,however you have to become a part of system to change it,otherwise you will be called "NON-STATE ACTOR"
 
opher goodwin Added Feb 10, 2018 - 7:41am
Smoke - I'm beginning to doubt that it can be changed.
Eileen de Bruin Added Feb 10, 2018 - 2:26pm
Smoke and mirrors it all is really.  We, the people, ultimately get what the cumulative psychology desires....best intentions can surely lead to hell.
opher goodwin Added Feb 10, 2018 - 6:07pm
Eileen. We just have to do better and not fall for their tricks.
wsucram15 Added Feb 11, 2018 - 6:47pm
Nah..I like Lynn, even though we disagree on much. You can speak  to him.
Now with voting Lynn, why is it that you would make a generalized statement that the "uniformed vote left". 
I have found that to be actually equal, knowing what I do. Also having spoken to Trump supporters to understand "why".   But I promise when I volunteer on primary day or during electoral time to run people in to polling places who do not have a ride...they are informed..on policies, especially the local stuff. I dont care who ppl vote for, its what they vote for that matters.
but ppl that watch shows like judge judy , and other dumb stupid shows like wrestling, swamp men, my redneck wedding, hillbilly handfishing..et al voted for trump.  Come on now, lets generalize.  I bet just as many Springer people voted trump..people that like that shit are just silly.
wsucram15 Added Feb 11, 2018 - 7:25pm
Now on women who worked to get the vote..those women fought and some died for the right to have a say in government.  I'd say they were heroes even though sometimes it may seem we didnt get very far, men cant lock us up in jail now, beat, torture, and force feed us against our will. They cant take our children, husbands or jobs because we have no rights.  Although it has not been w/o  constant diligence on the part of women and over the years  the suffrage of "people" has come in waves.  Women is just one of many.
 
Opher..the fight never stopped, not ever...80s, 90s..and now. My sister marched before that.  Its always something. But voting is a huge issue now. 
i actually saw one protest done in FL over an older woman who couldnt drive and had to get all this backup documentation just to get her birth certificate to register to vote because she was no longer able to vote without ID. 
ive never seen someone fight so hard to vote, buses left her stranded all kinds of stuff. But she got registered in time.  It was an interesting way to see how the vote is treated now.
 
 
 
 
 
TexasLynn Added Feb 11, 2018 - 9:42pm
Jeanne >> You can speak to him.
 
Glad you feel that way. :)  If you can just get past that smart-ass factor. :)
 
Jeanne >> Now with voting Lynn, why is it that you would make a generalized statement that the "uniformed vote left".
 
Setting aside the simple logic of anyone voting out of ignorance would obviously vote opposite me... the assertion was made slightly tongue in cheek.  So, I will concede that there are uninformed voters across the political spectrum and TV watching preferences.
 
Unfortunately, two (mostly tongue in cheek) sentences...
 
"I've always assumed those who don't vote are idiots, and logically idiots would vote opposite me. :) So, I'd just as soon they stay home and watch Oprah and Jerry Springer (and smoke dope and play video games)."
 
... took away from my overall message that I prefer voter education over voter turnout.  I would rather have 100 engaged and informed voters over a 1000 not.  Who would not want that?
 
>> But I promise when I volunteer on primary day or during electoral time to run people in to polling places who do not have a ride...they are informed..on policies, especially the local stuff.
 
Case in point, if someone is willing to go to the effort to arrange for a ride to the polling place.  THOSE are the people I want there.  Those are the people who are going to put forth the effort to be informed!  And God bless you for making that possible.
 
Look... you guys seem to think I want to keep people in general from voting... and nowhere in my comments have I asserted that.   In fact, I believe so vehemently in the right and responsibility of voting that if I knew of someone who would cancel out every vote I intended to mark... but needed a ride.  I'd give it to them … and all their buddies. 
 
To be clear!  I want society and government not to concern itself with trying to get people not interested in voting to vote.   Needing a ride of other assistance does not fit that bill.
 
Low turnout of informed voters is great.  High turnout of informed voters is even better.  High turnout (no matter the quality of voter) should not be the goal (of anybody).
TexasLynn Added Feb 11, 2018 - 9:45pm
Dave >> Keep spoiling your ballot if that is where you conscience leads you. I think this is a more responsible civic action than staying away from the polls.
 
Sorry, I missed your comment earlier...
 
It's in my nature to buck the system; especially when I'm pissed.  And when it comes to politics, I'm always pissed.  :)  I think I'm going to find myself in that boat more often in the future.
 
In this particular race (2016 Presidential), I had promised myself that I wouldn't vote for another non-conservative just because he had a R beside his name.  I was expecting another McCain or Romney (like Jeb Bush)... Trump didn't fit the bill either; nor did anyone on the entire ballot.
 
I once voted for Kinky Friedman for Texas Governor (as a protest vote) and I guarantee he and I don't agree on much.
opher goodwin Added Feb 12, 2018 - 4:29am
Jeanne - I find that too. Lynn is fun - you don't agree with too much of what he says but you can talk and see where it's coming from.
opher goodwin Added Feb 12, 2018 - 4:33am
My Mother-in-Law finally decided to break a lifetime of voting for the Conservatives to vote Socialist. She was disgusted by what the Tories were doing. As she was disabled she had to get a ride to get to the polling station so she rang up the Tories to take her. She enjoyed that. She sat smugly in the car knowing how she was going to vote and said to me that at least it took up a lot of time so they couldn't get others into vote. Every little bit helps.
wsucram15 Added Feb 12, 2018 - 9:44am
Yeah..I like people that you can discuss things with.  Thats how you learn.  He has a rationale for his thinking.  That I cannot always disagree with...maybe the outcome..but not the rationale.  Make sense?
Two of my best friends are die in the wool Republicans with money. They go to the fundraisers..all that crap.   I do if its for "the right candidate" and I rarely get involved in DC politics in that manner. 
 
We argued in 2016 until we decided to not discuss even who we voted for.  Im cool with what I did at the ballot box and they hate Trump more than I do now, which makes me giggle just a bit. 
At least Lynn has a rationale..as do many others.
 
opher goodwin Added Feb 12, 2018 - 9:55am
You don't have to agree in order to get on with people, do you?
TexasLynn Added Feb 12, 2018 - 10:06am
Opher >>  I find that too. Lynn is fun
 
Jeanne >> I like people that you can discuss things with.  ...  He has a rationale for his thinking.
 
Guys I'm blushing.
 
This totally makes up for Bill C calling me "unfunny and an ass" the other day.  That one cut deep; because I think I'm one of the most hilarious asses I know. :)
 
I will return the compliment and say I enjoy discussing issues with your guys too (and a few other)... no matter how wrong you are. :)
 
So no... you don't have to agree to "get on".
opher goodwin Added Feb 12, 2018 - 2:52pm
Lol Lynn - we'll convince you yet.
Dave Volek Added Feb 12, 2018 - 5:52pm
Opher
 
Driving people to the polls is a numbers game for the political party. It does not expect to get a 100% vote for itself with this election day activity. But it can sway a few fickle voters. Plus it ensures the strong support gets to the polls.
 
But it is very labor intensive. In the four elections I worked in, I doubt I ever got more than 10 people to the polls. If there were 10 of us doing us, this means only 100 votes, and maybe 70% would vote for us, which means the balance of a +40 for the day. Not a great return for about 50 person-hours of work for the drivers, not counting hours put in by the list compilers and phoners. And of course, there is the cost of running my vehicle around the city.
 
As I am writing this, I am thinking the real reason was to give us political junkies something marginally positive to do on election day than just hang around the office and drink coffee.
 
In the waning days of the 2016 prez race, one mini-documentary reported that Clinton had a great ground team and Trump had next
to-nothing. I think that says something about the value of ground team in modern elections. TV commercials are more important.
 
 
 
 
 
 
opher goodwin Added Feb 12, 2018 - 6:24pm
Dave - but if those 70 votes were mirrored by hundreds of thousands of volunteers they can make a real difference. It is amazing how few people it takes to swing an election.
I'm sure the ads were important. What really hurt Clinton was the FBI report just before the election. I think she would have walked it if they hadn't intervened.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 12, 2018 - 6:39pm
Democracy failed in Athens because of demagoguery and other distractions that did not allow citizens to analyze the current situation and vote for the 'common good,'
 
With identity politics and other warping factors in our society we should find out  that most democracies have failed in the past. 
 
Opher
"I'm sure the ads were important. What really hurt Clinton was the FBI report just before the election. I think she would have walked it if they hadn't intervened."
 
She ran a very poor campaign with no ideas for imporvements only attacks on all  the Republican candidates. 
 
 
wsucram15 Added Feb 12, 2018 - 6:55pm
Nah..dont try to convince him, he is smart enough to actually walk his own path and ask his own questions.  Even when he is really set on his opinion. He will still discuss.  Like the wall.  It was a good discussion.
Lynn..dont blush. But it is rare we get an honest person that will discuss opposition opinion. If more people did that, we could MAYBE stop the fighting long enough to fix this mess. I have hope.
 
Now Opher..like I said before, my friends call me a conservative liberal.  I think they call me that because I have no set boundaries on pretty much anything except..my ethics and morals. (there are other things but lets stick to that for now). 
But NO..there are no rules as to who you speak to or where your ideas should come from.  Why should it be that way?  People that think like that are afraid.
opher goodwin Added Feb 13, 2018 - 3:27am
Jeanne - one of the beauties of this site is that you get to speak to people from all viewpoints. Sometimes things get heated and arguments tetchy but usually there is a reasoned debate. It degrades when people get personal and abusive but that's human beings for you.
Dave Volek Added Feb 13, 2018 - 11:41am
Opher
Canada uses the Westminster system we inherited from the UK. In our 300 seat parliament, maybe 30 seats are close enough where the constituency ground team could have an impact on the result. In the other 270 seats, the effort is wasted--for all parties.
 
More people base their vote on TV commercials than the actions of the ground team. The canvassing, phone calling, lawn signs, town hall meetings, etc. are, today, no near as effective in changing the result. The case in point: Clinton had a great ground team and lost, Trump had little ground team and won.  The importance of the political volunteer is waning.
 
opher goodwin Added Feb 15, 2018 - 12:36pm
Dave - I would prefer a proportional representation system. Most votes, as you point out, are wasted. An election is fought in a very limited area and controlled by targeted advertising. The electorate are effectively manipulated.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 15, 2018 - 2:24pm
Opher
 
"The electorate are effectively manipulated."
 
The electorate are effectively manipulated by demagoguery as they have since 550 BCE.
opher goodwin Added Feb 16, 2018 - 1:00pm
rycK - sounds about right.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 16, 2018 - 3:49pm
Opher
 
And demagoguery is still the choice of the left. 
opher goodwin Added Feb 19, 2018 - 11:35am
Seems to me that demagoguery is the standard choice of everyone.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 19, 2018 - 5:15pm
OG
 
"Seems to me that demagoguery is the standard choice of everyone."
 
Because it works, obviously. 
opher goodwin Added Mar 9, 2018 - 7:31am
So why say it's the choice of the left?
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Mar 9, 2018 - 8:53am
OG
 
Please review some of Nancy Pelosi's caustic remarks and tell me this is NOT demagoguery.