Mass Instability & Guns

The blame centers on poorly designed psychology and psychiatry.  Some people might want to blame the current social, societal, and cultural state of affairs. However, these mass tragedies are mainly symptomatic of a troubled mental health system intertwined with a sometimes-helpless justice system.


First step is to admit that the experts are wrong in the mental health professions.   Second step is the totally restructure psychology and psychiatric treatment pertaining to potentially violent individuals. Involuntary treatment needs to be reconsidered for troubled youth and adults at threshold levels that put public safety as the top highest priority over the illogical and ill-reasoned people that are known as a threat to the people around them. Client centered treatment has missed the mark because the experts are asking our communities to accept the premise that people with an unstable mind can and should be the primary decision maker in treatment.


The above is the brief argument that you can comment on, however further down is a more expansive essay on the issues for those who have the time to read it...


For further discernment is the following:

The Guns Control vs Mental Illness Control dilemma that has been posited by many people is a fallacy argument.  There are plenty of people walking around free with mental health diagnoses that are not receiving the treatment they need.  Just look at the homeless population (as a small sample) who are people that the established experts would rather let stay out of institutions.  These people are walking around without being required to be supervised, and they often end up in trouble and/or hurting innocent people.


The psychiatrists and psychologists have been negligent in appropriately getting the dangerously insane people committed.  Much of the violence by these insane people was predicted by the sane people around them, and sometimes the threats were reported to the experts, but the mental health treatment needs were ignored for these known anti-social deviants who have lost touch with reality.


Much of the problem for the lack of  putting these potentially dangerous mentally ill  people away is because the pendulum has swung to far from the days when the crazy people were locked up and chained to walls etc. within insane asylums, to the present day where the experts want to allow the insane person to make a sane decision about committing themselves into treatment or NOT.


It is completely insane that the experts are asking an actively insane person to determine their own treatment.   It is equally insane that the insane person is deemed to have no responsibility within the legal system for fatally harming people.  The insanity plea is the biggest joke on innocent people who keep being harmed by the violent monsters who are out of their mind hallucinating.

There have been plenty of parents of adult children who have begged the authorities to do something about their child who has been exhibiting signs of destructive dangerous behavior, where no one would do anything until some innocent person is harmed.


Some people want to compare the USA against the UK on guns, violence, and homicides. The comparison has been offered up many times, but a lot of detail is often glossed over. I might want to mention first that there could be questionable reporting on the statistical percentages, but I’ll let that go. It is more significant to note that there is a high probability that mental instability or mental illness is under reported as the cause of many homicides in both the USA and UK.


The major difference between the USA and the UK on dealing with potentially violent people who have mental illness is striking. In the USA these individuals must first do the harm before they get the attention to be dealt with in most cases, whereas in the UK those mentally ill people who are obviously disposed to violence are dealt with more often before they harm someone.


In the USA there are approximately 356,000 mentally ill people in prison/jail, but only 35,000 mentally ill people are receiving treatment in hospitals. That is a 10-fold difference on who is getting treated before they have committed a crime rather than the opposite of not providing treatment beforehand (prevention) and before committing crimes. There are some estimates that say the USA population of mental illness is 3.3% but from that group they cause 10% of the homicides in the USA.


In the UK there are approximately 107,000 people with mental illness receiving hospital treatment of which 39% are detained involuntarily. The UK provides mental health treatment in hospitals to a higher percentage of their population than does the USA. That might correlate to prevention of the occurrence of violence committed by this population. There are as little as 70 cases in a year in the UK of homicides committed by someone who is deemed mentally ill.


Conclusion, the USA psychiatric/psychological policies for handling people who are violently mentally ill is broken, and has caused the enormous rise of harm by allowing too many violent psychotically diagnosed people to roam free among the innocent public. Some of these people are among the homeless population that walk the streets in many urban and rural communities.  Gun violence will decrease in direct relation to an increase of mandatory psychiatric treatment (Psychiatric Institutionalization) in the USA, just as it has seemed to occur in the UK.



wsucram15 Added Feb 19, 2018 - 10:45am you want to remove the freedom of decision making (done by Im sure a panel of cool NRA white guys) so you get to keep your guns?
Thats the same as kids carrying guns or arming schools. 
The consistent theme of these ppl has been access to assault rifles, cultural or sexual bias and of course poor mental health TREATMENT.  You cannot remove the rights of a human being w/o 2 doctors to sign off anyway.(its hard to do).
wsucram15 Added Feb 19, 2018 - 1:20pm
Also Cruz's (as an example) "mental history" is autism which is a developmental disability. He also suffers from depression but no wonder with such poor care.
mark henry smith Added Feb 19, 2018 - 2:01pm
Carl Rogers' idea of client-centered therapy was to give the patient a role in figuring out the cause of their mental condition. The therapist wasn't meant to be a passive listener, but an active informer, offering suggestions, but allowing the patient to direct where the dialogue went. The ultimate goal was to get the patient to become the party making healthy decisions about their behavior, and isn't that the definition of mental health?
What mental health in this country has become is an excuse to medicate. ADHD? Drugs given. Can't sleep? Drugs given. Anxious? Drugs given. What kind of drugs were being given to this kid? How powerful would one kind, committed, mentoring relationship have been? That's the real tragedy in this whole episode, that this kid had no one to rely on and fell in with social media, and perhaps video games to feel a sense of connection. Perhaps that's what we need more of, group homes where people of different backgrounds, ages, interests can live in a structured environment. The problem is always, who will pay for it? We pay one way or another, people.
I have a theory on how to treat violent behavior disorders without drugs or restraint.   
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 19, 2018 - 4:25pm
I drove past a mental facility that looked like a small college campus.  Closed by the states in the 60s and 70s.  When they said we can treat these people as out patients and have the drugs and will put in place the facilities for out patient care.  My church provided one of these out patient care facilities late 70's because there was nothing.  Started without state funding but now does get funded.  The performance of the replacements is as bad or I will argue worse then the campus approach.  The patents are expected to take the drugs and show up to get counseling etc.  But isn't the definition of mentally ill, they have failed in following norms?  So the expected results is not taking the drugs and showing up.  May be we need to consider those that planed this approach as mentally Ill?  The church realized to get them to spend their day interacting with other people required that they make it a positive experience so they are members of a club just like the service clubs in town.  
I hear the new media picking and choosing the student messages they put on air which agree with their views.  The reality of the time line is simple.   
The shooter faced unarmed people for about ten minutes.  A turkey shoot.  He faced not threat to his life and he didn't want to die.  And the school he knew being a GUN FREE ZONE he would not face anyone for an average of 9 minutes.  He I am sure knew the one officer in the school would have no idea where he was so was not a threat.  
Haven't were had enough people sacrificed on the alter of GUN FREE ZONES.   As Albert Einstein said "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 19, 2018 - 4:26pm
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 19, 2018 - 4:37pm
The miss use of a gun by a conceal Carry person is slightly better then the miss use by a policeman.   I do understand that many of you think the review boards are letting policemen get away with homicide. So that would mean CC persons are even less likely to miss use their gun.
The present culture that has spent decades teaching people to disrespect the police and not follow orders has played a major part in every police shooting I have read or heard about.   
So if 10% of the teachers in that school were packing, that shooter would have been confronted within the first minute.  Deaths would have been about 2.
Opes Added Feb 19, 2018 - 5:01pm
To wsucram15, you might have misinterpreted my stance to assume I take it much to lightly the rights of individual freedoms.
There are some reasonable arguments on a variety of causes and solutions. The common thread to all is that someone is being force to have or not have something they 'think' they want or need.
Granted, the extremes of an overprotective society is very limiting and can be harsh.
Prohibitions heighten a black market where law breakers might increase. 
The mental health professionals have been copping out, with attempts to have clean hands.
Opes Added Feb 19, 2018 - 5:04pm
Also Cruz was a known behavior problem, troubled student. Lets not sugar cookie his mental disease.
Opes Added Feb 19, 2018 - 5:13pm
Mark, true that the experts want a wonder pill magic wand instead of providing intensive costly inpatient treatment. It a failed system for decades.
The system incarcerates more people with mental health diagnoses than are treated in psych facilities . It is the same old thinking , of let the crime happen first even when the signs are clear a person is a dangerous lunatic. 
Autumn Cote Added Feb 19, 2018 - 5:57pm
Please note, it's against the rules to post articles here unless you comment on the work of others.  As always, many thanks for your participation with Writer Beat.  
Pardero Added Feb 19, 2018 - 9:44pm
I enjoyed your informative article and agree with your conclusions. Some would prefer that disturbed people use bombs, trucks, or knives, instead of guns. The massacre occured in a gun free zone, where no law-abiding citizen could carry one. I can't imagine why someone would want to create even more gun free zone killing fields.
Disclaimer: I am one of those "cool NRA white guys"
Opes Added Feb 19, 2018 - 11:29pm
Thomas, I agree with all that you said.  The deinstitutionalization effort did renege on promises that the money would follow the patients into community based services.  Also  it obvious the wrong thinking of the insane expectations for responsible behavior towards treatment by people who are acting out badly, and who have unstable situations of living. 
Opes Added Feb 19, 2018 - 11:35pm
Pardero, Yes, some people do not seem to have any experience of knowing that there are some truly evil violent people within our world that do have serious and obvious mental challenges where treatment is lacking, failed, and negligent for too many.
Flying Junior Added Feb 20, 2018 - 3:11am
You are a Christian, right?  Allow me to tell you how to spell altar.
You're thinking about the joke from the 1930s.  A bride describes her impression of marriage.  Aisle, altar, hymn.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 20, 2018 - 8:26am
Flying J. as you may guess I correct grammar and spelling in my head or at least think it is correct.  I even do this reading aloud, switch British and English for example.  Actually I did correct altar but likely copied the text before and got the error message when trying to submit.  Restarted and then pasted.
Bill Kamps Added Feb 20, 2018 - 10:11am
My problem is that many people who are mentally ill(but not legally so) have the same right to buy weapons as anyone else.  So we have this situation where many people, mentally ill, irresponsible, what have you, have the same rights to buy guns as the responsible gun owners. 
George N Romey Added Feb 20, 2018 - 10:38am
What is mentally ill? The family that took this kid in to try to give him a stable base was interviewed.  They believed he was making progress.  He was working to get his GED and was working part time. Seemingly his attitude was improving.  On surface was this someone that would have been institutionalized?
Being weird isn't a cause to institutionalize someone.  Also if the government (because no one else is going to do it) began to evaluate and house all people with seeming mental defects the costs would be in the billions.  
Opes Added Feb 20, 2018 - 11:08am
Bill, it is most difficult to resolve hypothetical arguments, but your point appears valid as to actively known mentally disturbed / mentally ill as opposed to those that are unknown.
The hindsight on the Cruz case is that he was forever kicked out of school, which is a clear signal to most reasonable people (I hope) that this person is dangerously troubled and requiring of likely intensive (inpatient) supervision/treatment.  And with that should have not had any rights to have guns.
Doug Plumb Added Feb 20, 2018 - 11:56am
These kids all have being on psychiatric drugs in common. I was in a very depressed state during a period in my life. Doc put me on paxil, it scared the hell out of me - it was like seeing yourself in the 3rd person. I got off it and a doc suggested something else, a popular drug, I forget the name. I researched it and learned it was just full of fluoride and that fluoride was the active ingredient.
  The docs also said I had reason to be depressed and that I wasn't crazy. Depression is sometimes just part of life. They make money by medicating you anyway.
  The Establishment wants everyone on drugs, I heard a rep from a drug company say they expect everyone to be on some kind of medication? Truck ran over your cat and its got you feelin down? Here we have these little green pills that will help, we know its a bit of a crap shoot but its worth if for us, we take no responsibility. These drugs are far to dangerous for us to take responsibility. But the medical community thinks the risk is worth it...hypocratic oath? No one signs that anymore 8-).
Dino Manalis Added Feb 20, 2018 - 12:32pm
We must care for people who need help, not abandon them, before crimes are committed.  Family and friends have to guide the mentally-ill.  Problems should be dealt with immediately before they worsen.
mark henry smith Added Feb 20, 2018 - 12:45pm
Strong relationships with decent people who care is almost always the best way to heal a troubled person, and most mentally ill people aren't crazy, in the classic sense, as Doug pointed out, they're just troubled, and can be talked through the trouble, as the Simon and Garfunkle song says. Like a bridge over troubled waters. Psycho-active drugs appear to throw a lot of people into the water and leaves them floundering.
The future of mental health, in my opinion, will be electrical stimulation to shut off and activate different areas of the brain to change mood and perception, as computer imagining of how brain activity affects thought and sensory perception becomes more accurate. 
mark henry smith Added Feb 20, 2018 - 12:47pm
Sociopaths, who have no empathetic response available will also be exposed in this mapping process and will then have their condition known so they can be employed appropriately and watched and kept from breeding, if we find the condition is genetic. But maybe we need sociopaths?
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 20, 2018 - 1:12pm
I recall that the last time restriction of guns came up one proposal of who should not have a gun, put on the list was by the Social Security Administration that actually submitted a regulation that those living off Social Security were not capable of handling money so can not handle a gun also.
Once you start going down the slippery slope of having bureaucrats determine who shall have a gun or not then the regulation will drift toward achieving the goals of the bureaucrats and not society.   To stay in power as unelected officials they want to have the guns and the citizens not have the guns.   It is a fact that during the Obama Administration department that have no reason to have guns purchased them, stockpiled them, and added armed enforcement sections.  Now why does the department of education need armed enforcers?  My guess is that they are still in place today.
The states have the responsibility in the Constitution to restrict gun ownership.  Do there job.  For example an open hearing occurs once things happen and a grand jury decides if a person is restricted from having a gun.  Schools, police departments, and employers can cite reasons to remove this privilege to the court.  Approved and they are put on the national list.  The person can bring up the restriction to the court every ~ five years.   Or the school, police and employer may be able to say the person should be added and the person can demand a hearing for just cause as suggested above.
Tom C. Purcell Added Feb 20, 2018 - 1:14pm
This is the U.S. right now, but it will cease to be with revocation of the second amendment.  It's not the guns that need to be restricted, it's simply that society has to change in a way that supports the traditional family, where there is mutual love, respect and hospitality for one another.   Homes have to change in this case, not laws and definitely not the constitution.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 20, 2018 - 1:14pm
As you can see I did not put a doctor in charge of making the decision since they seem to not have a good record.  The doctor can be used in the court case.
Bill Kamps Added Feb 20, 2018 - 2:12pm
this person is dangerously troubled and requiring of likely intensive (inpatient) supervision/treatment.  And with that should have not had any rights to have guns.
Yes I agree.  I dont think any system can be perfect.  But right now the bar to stop someone from having a gun is very high.
There is also an absurdity to many of the gun advocates arguments regarding sales and registrations.  One guy was asking if it will be necessary to record that he sold/gave a gun to his son?  If he sold/gave a car to his son he would have to register that sale.  Its not a big deal.
Too many people are paranoid that  guns will be taken away, and therefore oppose reasonable measures  that would make us all safer.  Gun owners of course think they are safe because they have a gun, but if they think about that really isnt true.  Im sure their kids dont all walk around packing heat all the time, so the knee jerk responses are getting a bit old. 
This is not a black and white issue where either everyone has a gun, or no one has one.  Virtually all of these people who commit these mass shootings are suffering some kind of problems that are related to mental illness.  This doesnt mean they  should be locked up, it does suggest they should be getting treatment, and not have the same rights to guns as just anyone. 
However, until the gun owners and people on the right, start helping to keep guns out of hands of people who cant be responsible, it will be difficult to make progress. 
George N Romey Added Feb 20, 2018 - 2:41pm
Even if this kid was in counseling that isn’t a sure fire prevention. We’ve always had sick twisted people some but why are they committing mass murder?
Doug Plumb Added Feb 20, 2018 - 4:17pm
Excellent question George. Stuff just doesn't add up. People should look into it further, hear what independent experts say. That truth is too much for most.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 20, 2018 - 4:21pm
Let us all recall that the left wanted 'rights' for homeless and others who might need  help by letting them out of treatment and back on the streets. 
There is no way to get around the notion that people can be restrained from doing certain things because the left  looks after them and needs their votes. 
Nobody can predict what the loons will do and, as usual such new laws are a joke given the mayhem in Detroit, Chicago, Oakland and  other toilets of the leftist creation. 
Bill H. Added Feb 20, 2018 - 10:36pm
rycK -
It's quite simple.
Just bring gun laws to a sensible level and limit the prescription of SSRI drugs.
It sounds simple, but we will have to deal with both the NRA and Big Pharma lobbies.
When profit is to be lost, action will not happen.
wsucram15 Added Feb 20, 2018 - 11:24pm
Cruz isnt mentally ill.  He is autistic,  which is a behavioral disorder not a mental illness.   Jesus Christ, This is YET AGAIN, a political narrative about something few ppl know anything about.  They are going to kill this kid for not helping him in the first place. Everyone that knew him was afraid of him..buts that because  most likely everyone of them gave him shit.  He is different.  Schools do not give one rats ass about kids that have autism.
He should NOT have been able to buy a gun and if he did, the people around him should have had some communicative control with him over said gun. They should have been more involved with him knowing he had the problems he does.
I own a damn gun and I will march against this...the entire thing is f**Ked up.  Kids should not be afraid to go to school, parents should not have to worry about them,  NO CARRYING IN SCHOOL is NOT AN OPTION, and teachers are not barriers.
The gun groups will have to bend..or come election time, it will be first on the agenda.
wsucram15 Added Feb 20, 2018 - 11:39pm
ALL OF YOU>>  HE IS AUTISTIC.  LOOK IT UP-IT HAS NOTHING to dO WITH MENTAL ILLNESS.  HE HAD NO ONE, BUT WHOM EVER TOLD HIM GUNS WERE COOL. Most likely video games..Autistic kids like videos because of the color spectrum and imagination required. 
They have not reported what end of the spectrum he was on..but he even seemed autistic via video. 
97% support universal background checks across all parties
67% support restrictions on semi automatic guns.
Lets see how it goes.  This is incredibly sad and guns are not the only issue.
George N Romey Added Feb 21, 2018 - 1:00am
Nothing will happen. Most politicians are already ignoring these kids. 
Flying Junior Added Feb 21, 2018 - 2:31am
Autism spectrum advocates are quickly denying that his one time diagnosis had anything to do with his horrific crimes.  How many violent autistic kids have you known?  I think he claimed to have been hearing voices.  It's not really an issue of his mental health.  It's an issue about the availability of high-powered, semi-automatic rifles with large-capacity magazines.  It is easier to buy ammo than Sudafed.  The only insanity defense in the works is the insanity of the NRA, the president and all of the right-wing crazies.
Right-wing hatred, white supremacist militias, secessionist movements, Trump...
That's what warped his mind.  There is no insanity defense in the works.  He was no more out-of-luck than any other kid that aged out of the foster home system.  He had enough money to buy a rifle.  He wasn't exactly down and out.
It's the sanity of our nation that is on trial.
wsucram15 Added Feb 21, 2018 - 3:26am
of course they are, why would they want anything to do with this? It is almost impossible to keep their children in schools now..are you kidding?It would set efforts back years.  Most kids would never have a problem, my point was a) he should never have been sold a gun..everl; and b) they are gonna kill this kid w/o taking any external factors into account.
Someone got a hold of that kid..if you are cool with them and talk then you are ok. But if you are confrontational or pick on them, the temper or frenzy starts. Im guessing thats what got him thrown out of school and he was not in a place that would protect him, they have to protect everyone..they arent trained.
I dont know what happend..nor does anyone else at this point. I t is sad though that if he is..he will most likely be killed for it.
wsucram15 Added Feb 21, 2018 - 3:31am
But you are right when our children have to be the adults in the room because they are afraid.. things have gotten out of control.
Opes Added Feb 21, 2018 - 7:36am
Please try to comprehend what follows here.  Neither you nor I know exactly the full story on Cruz regarding his diagnoses or diagnosis.  We can however surmise that his murderous actions are evidence of something more than autism.  The school systems are known by some to be very reluctant to discover true psychological/psychiatric limitation diagnoses due the the costs associated with the eventual IEP services that strain the overall school budgets.  That is a side issue, but lets agree, we are not privy to enough information about this troubled person.  But the act / behavior was emotional, disturbed, mentally deficient, and inhumane.  The cause of the act can be debated forever.
Lets blame a thing, a person, a system, an established policy, etc.  My default until proved otherwise is that this person was known to be trouble. the authorities were warned about it. the schools could not handle him, so throw him out. An no one had the responsibility of stopping him from harming innocent people.  No one, unless you stop letting the psychology and psychiatric professionals continue to have clean hands, while they are at fault for negligence.
Dave Volek Added Feb 21, 2018 - 12:15pm
Nice article. I liked your US/UK comparison, which is definitely worthy of more discussion.
One issue I see that if the police have to deal with all suspected mass shooters, they will be very busy. But only a few will actually carry out the action.
In Canada, we had a similar closing of many mental institutions in the 1970s. One reason was that "slippery slope" of who decides who is admitted and who eventually gets out. Mistakes were made.
Most mental patients these days are "at home." Most do not cause big problems. We don't have more gun violence because these people are no longer in hospitals. 
Bill Kamps Added Feb 21, 2018 - 12:43pm
wsu, most of us are talking about the general case, not specifically Cruz, when we say mental illness.  OBVIOUSLY there are varying states people may be in which make it inappropriate for them to posses a gun.  Autism, mental illness, perhaps strokes, dementia, Alzheimer's, perhaps PTSD, any number of problems someone might have.   Even using the term mental illness correctly, it is still shorthand for a lot of specific problems, that may or may  not be treatable with meds. 
Unfortunately, ALL of these people are legally allowed to buy guns at this time, unless they have been hospitalized and judged to be legally insane, which is very few. 
Unfortunately, if a person has not committed a crime, and can walk into a store and fill out the forms, they are presumed to be of sound mind and can purchase a gun. 
Unfortunately, if a person stops taking their meds, they may relapse into a dangerous state, when normally they are not dangerous. 
It is a pretty difficult problem keeping guns out of the hands of people who are unable to be responsible with them.  Unfortunately the NRA would have us believe these people dont exist, they say there are only criminals and responsible gun owners.   Best I can tell, none of these shootings have been committed by someone who is a criminal in the classic use of the word. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 21, 2018 - 4:42pm
Your a lawyer wscucram15, so you know that knowing that murder is a crime is sufficient.  I have a grandchild 14 on the spectrum and his mother teaches preschool for special need children and a sister-in-law that is a school social worker and a mother-in-law with the same degree.  We both know that Cruz a high functioning 18 year old Autistic 'man' knows what right and wrong is and has the capacity to choose.  His actions clearly show premeditation.   Does he have an adult mind yet, NO, and so he will not automatically think about the consequences.  Those posts and other thing that suggested he could be a shooter are examples of not thinking of the consequences.  Sad to say the local, state, and federal government did not do their do-diligence so we lost 17 humans and he didn't suffer the consequences when the consequences were minor.
Liberals like you wscucram15 think that government does its do-diligence more often then not. What is good enough?  The problem is simply that government policies effect large segments of the population and no amount of effort can predetermining the effects and the chain reaction of effects that result.  “The welfare state has done to black Americans what slavery could not have done, the harshest Jim Crow laws and racism could not have done, namely break up the black family,” Williams said.   The effects of the welfare state are playing out in the streets of our cities.  Cruz's actions are related to the social changes that could be traced back to the welfare state.  Welfare is the largest cost for the federal, state, and local governments.  And the effects are massive.  
Obviously we can not show the effect of not creating a welfare state.  We can say that immigrate to America before the development of the welfare state was massive.  People voted with their feet to come to America without the promise of welfare.  Were the problems for a society that was created by the spontaneous actions of people vs government actions as measured by GDP better or worse that the problems we have today after a century of having a welfare state?  At least compared to where they came from the answer is no.  Still is today with the welfare state.
The question is simply.  Are we better off with a top down government or a bottom up government that the Constitution and Bill of Rights put in place at the start of the 1800s.  We know that Cruz completed is grizzle work in less then 5 minutes and that the response time of police average minimum is 5 minutes.  So the police arrived as Cruz was leaving.  The complex was so big that the one or two guards did not engage Cruz.   IS THIS GOOD ENOUGH, BECAUSE WE CANNOT EXPECT A BETTER RESPONSE from the first responders?   Will the system fire people for missing Cruzes signs.  I see no evidence of any responsibility being dished out.
Bottom up government would say that it is impossible to determine who will become a terrorist while still having a free society.  And even in a police state terrorist will still exist.  Thus the teachers in the school should be armed to reduce the response time.  And since all locations are also at risk and all lives are precious then as the second amendment state citizens should have the ability to defend their precious lives and the lives of others.   
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 21, 2018 - 5:25pm
Thomas Sutrina
"The question is simply.  Are we better off with a top down government or a bottom up government that the Constitution and Bill of Rights put in place at the start of the 1800s."
Jefferson and friends envisioned a "bottom up government " when voters were mostly confined to one vote if they were land owners and the governor actually hand-picked the senators as his or her allies in the state??
I cannot think of a single "bottom up government " on this planet unless you presume, falsely, that the 'democratic's system  focuses the will of the people into governance and laws. It does not. 
Opes Added Feb 21, 2018 - 5:58pm
Passing the buck, and a culture of blamelessness is defacto for these horrors. 
Innocent law abiding people need to be respected more while troubled dangerous people need to be dealt with more seriously and timely.
Pardero Added Feb 21, 2018 - 11:56pm
Didn't an emotional and irrational suicidally altruistic movement put all those mentally disturbed people into the streets many years ago?
This same emotional, crowd with their incessant howling, caused the terrible and destructive passing of gun free zone legislation. Immediately after a tragedy is no time for hysterics and knee jerk reactions. 
It seems to me that a calm and rational approach is required to determine if present laws, policies, and procedures were followed and were adequate. It is my belief that those that clamored for the gun free zones bear some vicarious liability for the carnage in the schools that took off after that knee jerk reaction. The terrible gun free zone law is proof that no new legislation is preferable to hastily crafted and emotionally driven bad legislation that makes a problem worse.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 22, 2018 - 11:26am
"Didn't an emotional and irrational suicidally altruistic movement put all those mentally disturbed people into the streets many years ago?"
They sure did on a 'rights' basis.
Opes Added Feb 22, 2018 - 12:46pm
Yes, much liability with the profession of psychology and psychiatry on this issue. They allowed the head strong radical groups sway the foundations to a point of abandoning people who cannot function independently, but worse is it allows for some of these people to live a worse existence and harm others physically, emotionally, financially,  and in many other indirect ways.
Jeff Michka Added Feb 22, 2018 - 1:00pm
I can't imagine why someone would want to create even more gun free zone killing fields.-Yeah, Pard...if we just arm teachers it will solve the problem, never mind you'll have teachers conducting gun battles in the hallway and stairwells of schools.  That's Sooooo much safer.Didn't an emotional and irrational suicidally altruistic movement put all those mentally disturbed people into the streets many years ago-Must be those "evil leftists," right syck ryck.  Let's see how JFK you are: Can we get you tickets for several open limosine rides through Dallas?
Opes Added Feb 22, 2018 - 5:12pm
It seems short sighted sometimes to disregard ideas just because some people are throwing up suggestions on how to better protect the schools and harden other soft targets.  there are a wide number of ideas.  Some are indeed more expensive than others.  Some could cause more risk than others.  Some are wild ideas.  But a full lock down on all areas in our society is not anyone's idea is it? 
Then we have talk about the risks of a somewhat free country and peoples.
It is my sense that gun violence will decrease in direct relation to an increase of mandatory psychiatric treatment (Psychiatric Institutionalization) in the USA, just as it has seemed to occur in the UK.
mark henry smith Added Feb 22, 2018 - 5:12pm
I wonder if these weapons have been the recent gun of choice for boy killers because they resemble the weapons they use in combat video games.
Let's not forget the Texas church shooter who was also labeled as a menace for years and nothing was done to prevent him from owning a gun.
The purpose of gun-free and drug-free zones is not to keep them gun or drug free. The purpose is to have stiffer punishments for people caught with these items within that zone. It's a legal tactic, not an abolition. And kids know that as juveniles, the law is less severe with them. How many guns are being found on kids going into Philadelphia schools? The numbers would shock you, and the ages of these kids.
If we want better mental health, we need better health care. If we want a system that let's fewer fall through the cracks, it will have to be a nationally-integrated system. Family doctors are the first line of defense when a child is acting out, if the doctor has an intimate, trusting relationship with the family. And our psychiatric system is broken, as is our educational system, as is our political system, as is our transportation system, as is our comment system. 
Pardero Added Feb 22, 2018 - 5:57pm
Jeff Michka, 
I think your statement containing "teachers conducting gun battles"  is a bit over the top, as are some other comments. My belief is that angry and frustrated writers need to calm themselves before engaging in debate. As a news junky, I am unaware of such an occurrence before the gun free zone laws. I am new to this writing hobby, but one would think that a writer's credibility would be supremely important. You seem to oppose a lot of reasonable ideas. What do you support?
Jeff Michka Added Feb 22, 2018 - 6:08pm
Register and license firearms for a start.  But that's poison to Trumpist Republicans and NRA members.  ol Waynu Lapierre and some female NRA shill went down a Trumpist hate list of groups and people, THEY claimed were responsible.  Nothing like blaming Hillary Clinton to get the Trumpist "base" seething.  And we need more Mexican truck drivers, it seems.  After all the Left just wants your jobs taken away by "deserving illegals," right?  We can stack those jobs next to the pile of guns taken away by the guys in the black helicopters.  You seem to oppose a lot of reasonable ideas-AND You have "reasonable ideas?"
Jeff Michka Added Feb 22, 2018 - 6:11pm
The Sutrino decays: Will the system fire people for missing Cruzes signs.  I see no evidence of any responsibility being dished out.-Yeah, that's everybody in the FBI FOR "MISSING" THIS BECAUSE THEY WERE SO BUSY GOING AFTER Trump's Russia stuff.  Are you a Russian troll bot, Sutrino?
Pardero Added Feb 22, 2018 - 6:29pm
Jeff Michka,
It has come to my attention that Mexico requires guns to be registered and licensed.
How is that working out? 
Bill H. Added Feb 22, 2018 - 10:44pm
I am a gun owner. The only reason I own a gun is to protect myself from other crazy gun owners. So is that the excuse I am going to use to justify my gun ownership?
It's probably time to take a second look at our gun laws, just as we obviously need to look at who we allow to drive on our roads. People no longer posses the same mental capacities that they did 40 years ago.
I would actually be very comfortable if it was decided to not only begin extensive background checks for gun ownership, but also enacted a training/licensing procedure.
After all, I need to get a license to not only drive a vehicle, but also to go fishing and to operate a Ham Radio station.
Opes Added Feb 23, 2018 - 8:09am
Bill H,
Your comparisons of guns with automobiles leaves out one major truth.  In both cases the reality is that there are 2 distinct groups of people, the legal use/ users, and the illegal use/users.  You seem to be only referring to the legal use/users.
The true fact and reality is that people who disregard laws do still drive cars when they are not legally suppose to drive.  It happens by many methods.
Most gun violence by people in the USA is by people who do not care about the law.  There are gangs, mobsters, and various other dangerous people.
However, the mass violence perpetrators do seem to be a troubled group that are known to be unstable long before the crimes they commit.  We as a nation have been allowing the authorities to get away with negligence.  The professions of psychology and psychiatry are broken on this issue, and so is the law enforcement systems broken on this issue.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 23, 2018 - 8:54am
 Are you a Russian troll bot, Sutrino?   Great question Jeff Michka.  As we know one strategy in to blame some else for what you are actually doing.
mark henry smith Added Feb 23, 2018 - 12:55pm
Opes, well said. There are already so many guns, and how are we going to find all the people holding illegal guns? It's not like a car that you can see parked in the driveway, or driving along a road. People have to show them in a situation where they are forbidden.
The numbers of people reported for being dangerous must be astronomical. The Cruz kid was investigated and deemed not to be a danger. That would have been on his record. His host family saw no signs of escalating behavior. Most people who have episodes of breakdowns don't become violent. They get through it and move on. But, the guy in Texas had a long-term pattern of abuse and gun threats. The Cruz kid must have been bullied for his deficiencies.
We might as well outlaw bullying, snide comments, mean behavior, slurs, what JM does here to me. Constant, everyday obsessive need to vent, might be a sign that someone's close to a complete collapse and intervention might be desired.
If we want to lessen the damage, lessen the lethality of the ammo, in the same way we limited the size of the bombs in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. And when you meet one of these lunatics, keep them talking by any means until someone else becomes aware of how dangerous they might be and intervenes. Autumn, do you hear me?
Jeff Michka Added Feb 23, 2018 - 4:33pm
It has come to my attention that Mexico requires guns to be registered and licensed. How is that working out?-I dunno, don't care, Pard...I'm not Mexican and don't live there.  How are the armed guards in schools working out?
Jeff Michka Added Feb 23, 2018 - 4:37pm
And ol Marko wants to keep it going by smearing me again, and then complaining because I write something back.  Seems that's ol Marko's obsession AND TRYING TO MAKE ME SOUND LIKE A SCHOOL SHOOTER, once again.  Oh, gee...another "online personality" like perfect JenJen...good ol, "I'M SO SPIRITUAL" Marko. 
Pardero Added Feb 23, 2018 - 4:44pm
Jeff Michka, 
The armed schoolteachers in Texas have not encountered any problems, yet. Of course, that was the plan.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:03pm
And their encounter may be some instant pink mistification.
Jeff Michka Added Feb 23, 2018 - 8:30pm
I realize you are just another rightist, Pard, but this is more of the John Wayne BS that will, eventually, get people's guns taken away en masse: The armed schoolteachers in Texas have not encountered any problems, yet. Of course, that was the plan.-Part of "the school shooting conspiracy, eh?Well, I don't know or care how many armed teacher there are in Texas, but they've got a good buddy in the "Worst responder" in FL.and The Barry G oldwater republican adds: And their encounter may be some instant pink mistification.- You taken any of those open limosine rides as recommended?
Jeff Michka Added Feb 24, 2018 - 4:06pm
it's simply that society has to change in a way that supports the traditional family, where there is mutual love, respect and hospitality for one another. -Riight.  Unless they are Jewish, then they can only mutually love, respect and have hospitality for one another separately. Your Nazi politics prohibits you solution, and so glad you found Geezus, Tom.  All these folks were looking for him, but Geezus' form was hard to find, being nonexistent.
Jeff Michka Added Feb 24, 2018 - 6:45pm
Dr. Marko sez: George, I do think I know this guy, Jeff Mitchka, and as Daniel Day Lewis says in The Last of the Mohiccans? I will find you-Oh, right....Marko ain't gonna do more than ol Geo has done about anything: meaning he won't do anything. That "i'm will find you" is soooo...dramatic, and soooo empty.   I bet Geo's heart fluttered. Now back to whines about the 2nd amendment being taken know, the only words saving us from a leftwing takeover, right Lynn and Rusted?
Opes Added Feb 24, 2018 - 11:35pm
Too many people cherry-pick the facts.
In the U.S. the cities in urban areas with the most restrict gun laws seem to have the highest gun violence because gang members get illegal guns.
New laws will not likely change that.  Why?  Because we also lost on the drug war.  We can't stop illegal drugs either.  
A part of the solution must include serious action on known violent emotionally disturbed people.
Gun violence will decrease in direct relation to an increase of mandatory psychiatric treatment (Psychiatric Institutionalization) in the USA, just as it has seemed to occur in the UK.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 25, 2018 - 8:30am
Opes are you kidding Gun violence will decrease in direct relation to an increase of mandatory psychiatric treatment?  Those gang member are not insane, they may be immature but not insane.  They have a very poor foundation.   They are following basic living animal behavior.  You see it in two year olds.  A two year old doesn't understand anything but their wants.  This is the thinking of a youth and adults that never learned something else as a youth.  That gun gives them power to get what they want.  Since self fulfilment is a basic animal trait then having that drive is not insanity.  
Poor parenting and the poor society of the ghetto has not taught that child as he grew up about their wants are tempered by not denying others wants.  The high incident of single female families has resulted in the lack of male role models for boys to immaculate.  Thank the reward system rules of welfare that have existed for nearly a century Aid to Dependent Children was started during Franklin Roosevelt's administration.
A drive by shooting is the anger response of a two year old not getting what he wants, but now that two year old mind set is in a youth.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 25, 2018 - 8:33am
 lack of male role models for boys to immaculate.  should end with imitate.
mark henry smith Added Feb 25, 2018 - 3:17pm
A sense of duty to a greater good.
In my own life I've had moments where I lost direction. I try to live by a code of conduct and it is very strict. And when you accept the efficacy of a strict code of conduct, you accept the reality that you will fail at times. That is the important lesson in all codes of conduct that hold legitimacy. Not the strict adherence, but the failing and coming back, learning how duty was turned derelict.
The armed guard hid. The football coach stood his ground. One man will live to see another day forever as a coward, and the other will be honored as a hero. But who would kids who see these two stories rather be in a society that promotes consumerism over all things, that has no clear definition of what a dutiful citizen is supposed to do in moments of conflict that entail life and death?
What gives a person a feeling of inner power so they don't feel the need to gain that feeling by subjugating or hurting others? Meaningful work, meaningful commitments, meaningful justice seen in the world around them. The one theme that runs through all of these killers is that they saw no potential for justice in our system for their grievances and their duty became vengeance. 
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 25, 2018 - 4:30pm
"The one theme that runs through all of these killers is that they saw no potential for justice in our system for their grievances and their duty became vengeance."
IF they had actual grievances. The mentally ill manufacture grievances out of the air. 
Opes Added Feb 26, 2018 - 9:45am
Thomas, I agree with you.  The solution I mentioned was not to resolve the gang violence problem.  That requires a different solution for sure.
Gun violence will decrease in direct relation to an increase of mandatory psychiatric treatment - is a statement for resolving just a portion of the overall problem presented by the mentally deranged harmful perpetrators in the U.S.
I've heard other great solutions mentioned, for protecting the schools by providing enhanced security with use of professional law enforcement measures, etc.
Jeff Michka Added Feb 28, 2018 - 2:16pm
single female families has resulted in the lack of male role models for boys to immaculate.-I guess those kid's conceptions were immaculate, too....right?  Must be FDR's fault again, eh, Sutrino?