My thoughts on the increase of Islam in the world

My Recent Posts

I know many muslims and I must say that I like and enjoy them alot. When I wanted to learn Turkish I found a teacher and he had a wife and three kids and was working hard to keep a job as a Material Scientist. His wife also had an advanced degree. They were quite religious and every day that i went to study with him, I could not get away in under 4 hours. This started to make me feel bad so I spoke with him about it. He told me that if I wanted to learn that it was his responsiblity to teach me. Never charged me a cent and we always had tea and some munchies.

Later in Istanbul I found another teacher and the same thing happened. Twice a week we met at the University of Istanbul and we would sit outside and work. He learned some English but I got most of the benefit. We estimated that within a month time we had spent 40 hours together. Again, I never gave him a dime. We had alot of fun though. He was also quite religious, but did not like Erdogan. This was during Ramazan 2014. He asked me one day if I would like to go to friday prayer and I jumped at the chance. We were to go to the Suleyman Mosque, not the tourist Blue Mosque. Huge and impressive. He instructed me in the protocol called the abdast (the cleansing at the fountain). Then on the day that we went we went and took seats next to each other at the fountains  and I began my abdast. When time came to cleans my mouth I gingerly spit out the water. I fellow tapped me on the shoulder and wagged his finger at me and showed me how. He took a mouth full of water, swooshed it about, and then let her rip.  I could see some very friendly smiles in the row of about 40 men. Half way through, something very strange happened. The fountains stopped. The whole place stopped and most looked upward for guidance. After waiting some time we all had to put our shoes back on and do the thing all over again at some nearby smaller mosque. However, as we were leaving many people wanted to talk with me and ask me what I was doing there. Was I a muslim? I said no. Is that ok? They said “This is God’s house and all are welcome” Of course, there were also smiles when we spoke about the fountains and I am sure it was only out of Turkish modesty that nobody said it had something to do with me, but I could see the playful gleams in their eyes. Later that day my friend told me that he has been going to friday prayer there for 15 years and that was the first time that happened. He asked me what I thought it was all about, with a playful smile.

The next friday we were successful in getting into the Suleyman Mosque. It was impressive.  A large rug covered open space, without pews. All the men were in socks or barefoot and dressed modestly. The sermon was primarly about Love and responsibility to the poor.
And when we prayed I could feel the brotherhood.  From then on I found out that I didnt have to go through the tourist entrance and stand in back. I just went, did my abdast, and prayed to my God along with all these muslims. Everytime it was the same. Are you muslim? No. Welcome! Several times as I roamed through the city someone might hail me down and say,
 excuse me sir, are you fasting? I would say , yes, why do you ask? The answer, because we prayed together today. 

Why am I telling this story? Because, having grown up catholic in a military family, I was very surprised by the feeling of Brotherhood, a feeling I remember from the military. No fancy dress, just modest clothes and humans. All here for the same purpose it felt. It felt very warm and I thought, I dont remember church like this.

But the Prophet, praise be upon hime, had some tricks and I will tell you two. Duriing Ramazan fasting, you do not eat, drink, or smoke, from about 4am to about 8:30pm every day for a month. When the Iftar meal comes, you do not wolf it down. You eat slowly in small pieces and they were the finest 
tasting meals I ever had. Nothing fancy, bread, soup, some dates. Moreover, you can walk down the street and drop into a shop and they will feed you, for free. You then partake together with other people the Iftar meal. Again a feeling of brotherhood.

But the best trick was during the summer of Ramazan, it is a hot long day without food, water and smoke, and when you go to the fountain to perform your abdast and you rinse your very parched mouth out with the water. It is ambrosia! The most lovely tasting water I have ever experienced. I dont remember feeling this with the Eucharist. I can still taste that taste in my mouth today.

To finish, my young teacher from Istanbul came to spend a post doc in North Carolina and he flew to New  Mexico to see me. Now it was my turn to show him around. What a time. What a blessing. What a brotherhood. 


If you dare, read a book called the Road to Mecca by Mohammad Asad.  When he was
 Austrian Jew his name was Leopold Weiss.  He ended up in the ME and ended up converting to Islam. Knew King Saud personally and spied for him. Fought in
 Lybia against the Italians around 1924. He wrote this book specifically to try to describe the appeal of Islam. I must say he does an admiral job. He also wrote a famous annotation of the Quran, which  is outlawed in Saudi Arabia today. I know quite a few muslims who say that this Quran is the best.  Moreover, the book has some good adventure in it. What a life.

You can call me a muzzy lover if you like. I am. I also love Christians and Jews. I suppose its my Christian upbringing.  I dont suppose I ever met a man I didnt like. 

Comments

Dave Volek Added Feb 22, 2018 - 11:12am
Mustafa
 
Welcome to Writerbeat. Here you will find all sorts of different thinkers, and that is one of the good things about this forum.
 
We have a few contributors who don't like Muslims very much. I was hoping a knowledgeable Muslim might come to WB and offer a different angle to Islam than what these people have come to regard as "truth."
Stone-Eater Added Feb 22, 2018 - 1:13pm
Mustafa
 
What a nice article, welcome here. I'm currently in Senegal living in my business' partners family home. They also are devout muslims, so no alcohol for me too for a time, which is good,we all eat from the same plate sitting on the floor around it, drink good Arab tea after and nobody hassles the old atheist living with them LOL
Stone-Eater Added Feb 22, 2018 - 1:16pm
Dave
 
My friend here would be an excellent source, he knows everything from Plato to Kant to Allah and currently reads Chomsky I recommended him. All in French - unfortunately, if not he'd join us.
Frosty Wooldridge Added Feb 22, 2018 - 9:25pm
Islam’s philosophy remains: conquest. Islam’s economic system means the conquerors live off the bounty of the conquered and look for new people to loot. You see it in Europe today, but Canada, America and Australia grow large in their cross-hairs.  You may forget that the Middle East remains a desert, however oil makes its leaders rich, but it’s people remain illiterate and poverty stricken. Their oil gives the illusion of functioning economies, but  foreign interests run their management of the oil fields.  Importing millions of Muslims creates welfare and conflict within a host country.
 
"Any culture that will not defend itself against displacement through mass immigration faces extinction. That includes both time-tested and successful cultures. Embracing diversity results in cultural suicide. America’s multicultural path guarantees its destruction via cultural clashes and conflict with Islam, Mexican and African cultures that diametrically oppose American culture. The more diverse a country, the more destructive and broken-down its future. The more people, the more it destroys its quality of life and standard of living. The more it adds  immigrants, the more destruction to its environment. The more it imports refugees, the faster America, Canada, Europe and Australia lose their own ability to function and worse, their identities. Exponential growth of any civilization leads to ultimate collapse. You see it in Africa, India and China today. You will see it in Europe, Canada, Australia and America in the coming years, “IF" Western countries don't stop all forms of immigration.“ Frosty Wooldridge, 6 continent world bicycle traveler, witness to what’s coming to Western countries as to endless refugee immigration.
 
Dayanand Saraswati, Indian sage, said in 1883, "Having thus given a cursory view of the Koran, I lay it before the sensible person with the purpose that they should know what kind of a book the Koran is. I have no hesitation to say that it cannot be the work of either God or of a learned man, nor can it be a book of knowledge. Here its very vital defect has been exposed with the object that people may not waste their life falling into its imposition. The Koran is the result of ignorance, the source of animalization of human beings, a fruitful cause of destroying peace, an incentive to war, and propagator of hostility among men and a promoter of suffering in society. As to defect of repetition, the Koran is its store."
 
Frosty Wooldridge Added Feb 22, 2018 - 10:04pm
Voltaire on Islam
 
“The Quran teaches fear, hatred, contempt for others, murder as a legitimate means for the dissemination and preservation of this satanic doctrine. It talks ill of women, classifies people into classes, calls for blood and ever more blood. Yet, that a camel trader sparks uproar in his tribe, that he wants to make his fellow citizens believe that he talked to the archangel Gabriel; that he boasted about being taken up into heaven and receiving a part of that indigestible book there, which can shake common sense on every page, that to gain respect for this work, he covers his country with fire and iron, that he strangles fathers, drags away daughters, that he leaves the beaten a free choice between death and his faith; now this is certainly something that no one can excuse, unless he came as a Turk into the world, unless superstition has stifled any natural light of reason in him.”  Voltaire 1694 to 1788
David Montaigne Added Feb 22, 2018 - 10:26pm
The first page of the Qu'ran lets you know what kind of book it is.  Of course every group on Earth has good and bad people - I'm glad MK had a good experience in Turkey.  My experiences in Islamic nations have also been good.  But I wouldn't want to live in any of them, or under their laws and culture instead of in the West.
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 22, 2018 - 11:46pm
The critics here seem to not have read my post. I am not supporting anything; What I am doing is sharing what I think many people find appealing about Islam. Im not trying to advocate it.. When you add to that the fact that
(Christian) USA has destroyed Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen.
and is looking for a fight with Russia, NK, Venezuela, it kind of gives Christianity a bad name.   I suspect that is the primary generation of the rise- Connecting warmongering with the Christian religion of Love.
 
One of the things that i was most impressed with in Turkey was the people there actually understand that Americans are not our government. When I told people who go to Israel to visit regularly that I went to Turkey, the primary response was "werent you afraid?"
That was interesing because at no time did I fear for my physical security. Whereas  in Albuquerque or Espanola, or even Santa Fe, you
better be very careful depending on where you are and when. In some places you might consider travelling armed. In fact, the only place that I felt a danger was in Trabzon, where the blue eyes and blondish hair reminded you that you were near Armenian leftover Christian culture. I even saw a few pistol bulges, but I never saw such or felt insecure in Urfa.
 
This is different from when I hear people in US essentially saying that Islam is ISIS. In addition, this idea that an ancient book gives prescription for living today most feel is silly. According to what most say, the Quran is a historical narrative, not a prescription, whereas many of the Christians I know think that 40 days means 40 days. They apprarently have not read Maimonidis. Nor do they know that in both Turkish and Persian that the word for 40 is the same as for "alot". Kind of like in spanish where 50, sinquenta is the same as "without count"

So, he spent 40 days and 40 nights? Mmmm.
 
Quoting Voltaire is another fallacy, I forget the name of it. It doesnt matter what he thought. Islam is different today from what it was then, just 
 as Christianity is different today from what it is. Moreover, he may have had his biases, including political. They were both born Triumphal religions. Turn the lense around and ask how much of what you say is true about Christianity, the religion of Love.
 
As for Europe in the cross hairs, maybe you forget about what is causing these massive migrations. Do you think they just one day said "lets invade Europe"?  I have a muslim friend who told me 
" I dont give a fuck if they deport me or every muslim in the US, if they would stop regime change and bombing the shit out of the middle east I would be happy to go back.
Maybe we could make a trade. We stop bombing and they go home.

I would be happy with that, most muslims would be happy with that, but the Neocons running the USA certainly would not. Would you?
If so, maybe we could work together to try to stop "making the world safe for democracy" and try to establish something like one here.
BTW, he also agrees with one of you about the bad effects of these migrations. He symapthizes with the Dutch that want to stay Dutch. He says"What is wrong with there being such a thing as an Egyptian?"
 
 

As for living in an Islamic place, that depends. If by Islamic you mean Muslim brother hood or KSA, no thanks it is radical extreme, and they are destroying Turkey like they tried to do in Egypt. The were busted in Egypt, but they are succesful in Turkey. Too bad for half of them and all of us. Before the MB takeover in Turkey, I would be very happy to live there.  I would say if I was a muslim, there are many places in the Christian  countries  where you would not want to live.

 
The first part of the bible also lets you know what kind of book it is. 
You are born guilty. IMO, it begins by introducing cognitive dissonance. I guess to prepare for more later on. Moreover, if you think of  the "knowledge of good and evil" as "religion" (which I do the book actually starts of by saying the fall is the discovery of religion, the very book you hold in your hand. 
And lets not forget people turning into pillars of s
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 22, 2018 - 11:48pm
Sorry, Im new here and my post got chopped.
here is the rest:
And lets not forget people turning into pillars of salt. That surely says alot.


My experiences with people who take their and others holy books too seriously, is that  most of them dont read other books and get their news from religious channels.. Then you get responses  to questions regarding the Israeli Apartheid of Palestine as "well, Israel has a right to defend itself"   Or, even better, "whats the fuss over such a small piece of land?" Which do you mean? Israel pre 1967?, which caused a refugee crisis of close to 700K people and a lot of death and suffering? Or do you mean those little pieces of land that Israel keeps stealing? All with military and political support by "Christian" USA.


My wife had a religious experience in Urfa, the birthplace of Abraham, where the pool of fish  and his cave. Also Job's well and cave. She told me " I have been a Christian all my life and I have never experienced such love" She was radiant. 


Finally, In Turkey, I was asked "which countries do you think are the most dangerous to peace today?"
( BTW, unlike in the US, talking both religion and politics is not taboo like it is here. I did it many times and not once did it get heated or unpleasant.) I  demurred and said, " I dont know, which do you think?" The answer was always "The USA number 1 and Israel number 2, Welcome! 
Mustafa
Doug Plumb Added Feb 23, 2018 - 6:06am
Under Islam Christians must convert or become demi's. Under Judaism, Christians must be killed. Jesus is a false prophet and worshippers of false prophets must be killed. Both Judaism and Islam are supremist religions based on statutory law. Christianity is not supremist and it is based on reason, the single commandment of the NT, the Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have done to you IS Christianity, nothing more nothing less. It is an expression of the common law. Neither Islam or Judaism believe in the common law.
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 23, 2018 - 10:08am
I will repeat, my article was not theological, but an account of my personal (human) experiences with the muslim people. It was my obervations about what may be appealing.   
Have you ever had tea and conversation with a muslim? I suspect not. And that is one good thing about travel. It upons up you eyes to the humanity that you pre dehumanized.
 And as I  have experienced many times stating my experiences the responses often  devolve into theological drivel that has no bearing on my post
 
 
But let me address some of your theological statements.
 
And as I said above, one of the things I found so impressive there ,was no one used the type of logic you use, where you project something you may have heard onto me because of what you think I am. The strongest feeling I got there was that human spiritual contact and communication was primaly important. Not some meme you take from some place. For example, I will quote you here
" Christianity is not supremist and it is based on reason, the single commandment of the NT, the Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have done to you IS Christianity, nothing more nothing less."
 
Maybe you have not heard of Constantine and as my friends say
"Onward Christian Soldiers" but Christianity evolved into  a Triumphal religion. And as for "based on reason" you have evidently never read the bible.  It violates reason on every page. So do people who have theological discussions.  For example,
"the single commandment of the NT, the Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have done to you IS Christianity, nothing more nothing less.""
Nothing more and nothing less?That is absurd.  I suppose the Evangelical Christian  assistance in the creation of the state of Israel
was do unto others? Or was the (apparently Christian) USA invasion of Iraq do unto others?  You seem to forget that the (apparently Christian) US destruction of the ME does not appear "do unto others" to other people. And that is my point. I was not talking theology, I was talking about human interaction.
 
Finally, you and the other critics never support your assertions. You simply make declarative statements and we are all supposed to believe what you say. But I dont. I think you have never read the Quran so you dont know, you just talk 
 
 
 
 
Doug Plumb Added Feb 23, 2018 - 11:15am
re "Have you ever had tea and conversation with a muslim? I suspect not. "
 
Yes, very knowledgeable Muslim scholars, one Phd / Russian academy of science philosopher / theologian. Many occasions, usually coffee. I had some as friends as well.
 
Maybe you have not heard of Constantine and as my friends say
"Onward Christian Soldiers" but Christianity evolved into  a Triumphal religion. And as for "based on reason" you have evidently never read the bible.  It violates reason on every page. So do people who have theological discussions. 
 
You cannot go back in history for a philosophical argument. You do not know what happened, neither do I. We were not there. Different historians have different takes on what happened at this time.
  If you think the Bible violates reason on every page you need to re read it.
 
re "I suppose the Evangelical Christian  assistance in the creation of the state of Israel was do unto others?"
  That is not Christianity. To be Christain is to be forewarned of the pharisees and the seducees. I'm a holocaust denier too.
 
re "Or was the (apparently Christian) USA invasion of Iraq do unto others?"
  That war was fought to give Iraq a Jewish central bank and to bring it under the UN satanic NWO.
 
You have not specifically denied the fact that Christians become Demi's under Islam. Islam is not universal and its therefore a supremist religion. No number of crying feel good Muslims can change that.
George Kocan Added Feb 23, 2018 - 11:44am
I found the personal essay on meeting and making friends with Muslims most enlightening.  I do agree that the US's interventionist policies in the Middle East have created many unforeseen problems for Americans, among them the attack on the Twin Towers.  Nevertheless, the history of Islam suggests an ideology which uses religion as a cover for banditry.  Muhammed's first official act was to attack a caravan.  That is not friendly.  Jesus' first official act was to turn water into wine.  The Ottoman Turks conquered the Middle East and pressed into Eastern Europe where they met defeat at the gates of Vienna by a coalition of armies led by the Polish King John Sobieski.  And, that was not the first effort of Islam to conquer Europe. 
Bill Added Feb 23, 2018 - 12:21pm
To say that Islam is a religion of violence is ridiculous. To be technical, the Bible is MUCH more bloody and violent:
Violence: Koran vs. Bible
Dave Volek Added Feb 23, 2018 - 12:33pm
Mustafa
I think you are handling yourself well on WB. You are responding quite well to various questions on Islam.
 
May I caution that you need only to make your point. If the "other side" does not understand it, move on.
 
George
Up until recent history, we lived in times of "conquer or be conquered". And maybe we are still playing these games but in different ways. In this respect, the Ottomans were no different than the Christians for the Christian nations were also conquering each other in those times as well.
 
The Ottomans were able to take much of SE Europe because they had a superior society. A nation cannot raise a great army to conquer if it doesn't have a strong economy and social structure to back it up. The Ottomans advanced because the Christian societies were much weaker. This advantage lasted two hundred years.
 
When the Ottoman's conquered a Christian nation, they did not purge those nations of their Christian heritage. Greeks, Macedonians, Serbs, Croats, Romanians, and Hungarians were allowed to worship God in their traditional ways. There was no forced conversion to Islam. The only significant Muslim cultures created in Europe in those times were Bosnia and Albania.
 
Then social forces changed. Christians nations became stronger than the Ottomans, and then we see the slow retreat from the gates of Vienna to boundaries set by the Treaty of Versailles.
 
Religions--and the various denominations of those religions--are always in a state of evolution. Sometimes the evolution is forward, sometimes not.
 
 
 
 
 
Doug Plumb Added Feb 23, 2018 - 1:00pm
Mustafa: Who do you think is behind Multiculturalism ?
TexasLynn Added Feb 23, 2018 - 3:10pm
Mustafa, thank you for the depiction of your interaction with generous and pleasant Muslims.
 
An observation.  I'm a bit confused on how the title of your post ties is with the content of your post.  What does anything you wrote have to do with the increase of Islam in the world?  I just read about your personal experience and interaction with pleasant, agreeable Muslims.  I liked it; it was informative... but the title doesn't fit any of that.
 
Mustafa >> The critics here seem to not have read my post. I am not supporting anything; What I am doing is sharing what I think many people find appealing about Islam. Im not trying to advocate it..
 
Mmmmmm... you gave an account of a positive experiences.  Do you want your commenter to only acknowledge that positive experience?  Are you only looking for confirmation?  Like "Wow, Mustafa, what a wonderful experience you had.  Those Muslims you met were really nice and open minded and really exemplify the religion of peace we all know and love?"
 
Or... Can we share our experiences (good and bad)?  Can we share what we find appealing or unappealing about Islam?
 
Your protests against your "critics" or that of your subject are disingenuous in my opinion.
 
Dave >> We have a few contributors who don't like Muslims...
 
Dave, I'm sure, would put that label on me and I'm OK with that since I throw labels around pretty liberally myself.
 
I do hate Islam.  Saying that, I don't know the nomenclature to differentiate between my hatred of the teachings of Mohamed (Islam), and my pity (and non-hated) of those who have been ensnared by him (at least the peacefully ensnared).
 
I hate the teachings of Mohamed (found in the Koran) because after reading them.  I've concluded that they are evil; bent on oppression, conquest, slavery, and death.  These are the fruits of Islam, because they were the trade and profession of the man who founded the religion.
 
This seems to be the same conclusion reached by Dayanand Saraswati and Voltaire upon studying Islam.  This is one of the things I (and others) "find [not very] appealing about Islam".  (Said in the spirit of achieving relevance to your post/comments)
 
I also judge Islam by its fruits (by which you will know false prophets), today and yesterday.  We disagree that Islam isn't the same basic force it was centuries ago.  It's been a thorn in the side of the civilized world since its inception. 
 
Islam is not a religion of peace hijacked by a few evil fanatics, it is a religion of death and slavery hijacked by lots of moderates.  I'm glad you only experienced the moderates.  Bless them... I wish THEY were driving the fruits produced by Islam in the world today.  They're not... in fact they are inconsequential in the whole thing (as they always have been).
 
Mustafa >> Have you ever had tea and conversation with a muslim?
 
I lack the broad exposure you and others seem to have; but I will share one of the few I have had.
 
Tea no... Breakfast yes... with a local businessman.  It scared the ^&*% out of me.  The main statement he made that I remember most clearly was concerning the targeting of Jewish children (by Palestinians).  He said it was a good thing "Because those children grow up to be Jews".
 
What I am doing [right there] is sharing what I think many people find un-appealing about Islam.
 
Mustafa >> "the single commandment of the NT, the Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have done to you IS Christianity, nothing more nothing less."
 
Are you saying that the golden rule IS Christianity?  If so then you are guilty of the same ignorance you accused Mr. Plumb of... The golden rule, while relevant to Christian doctrine, is definitely NOT the encompassing message of the gospel (New Testament).
 
Mustafa >> In Turkey, I was asked "which countries do you think are the most dangerous to peace today?"  I  demurred and said, " I dont know, which do you think?" The answer was always "The USA number 1 and Israel number 2.
 
Why would that surprise anybody?  I would expect that to be the answer from most Muslims (wherever they are found).  Ask the same question of many of the leftist here on WB and you'd get the same answer.  And... I suspect you agree with that answer (based on your comments).
 
The enemies of liberty and freedom hate the champ
TexasLynn Added Feb 23, 2018 - 3:10pm
The enemies of liberty and freedom hate the champions of liberty and freedom.  Big surprise...
 
You hate the U.S.  You hate Israel.  Join the club.  You've got plenty of company here at WB; and like them you seem to want an echo-chamber (not so much a discussion).
 
Welcome to WB. :)
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 23, 2018 - 4:58pm
The message of Islam is very powerful to those that are looking for a clear message.  Islam is one of the clearest message of any that can be found.  So is the message of Carl Marx.  I am not talking about the content only the clarity of the message.  Both are cook book a how to live ones life.  When I have questioned some of the Muslims that have posted on this site one directed me to a great video that was an hour long on the practice of being a Muslim within an Islamic community.  What you have described is the practice of becoming a Muslim within the Muslim community.   Muslims that have done the reverse have felt the same way as you feel, becoming a Christian or Jew within the community.  
 
I hope you consider the next part of examining Islam.  How Islam views those not part of their community.  Clearly you know that not everyone chooses to be a Muslim and that mixed communities exist and that you are already part of one such community to have the opportunity to have this experience.   Write down the rules related to the relationship.  Be specific and ask probing question and root deeper and deeper into the subject until you have a crystal clear view.
 
Separate beliefs that are almost never practiced and may be really historic in nature from those that are practices and understand what portion of the community follow these practices.  How when they practice them it effects the rest of the community.    For example a practice done in secret has no effect on the community to a practice that is causes a response that the whole community may feel.   
 
This is a question proposed by a national leader of Egypt to the Islamic leadership.  I believe all Muslims and all potential Muslims need to answer his question for themselves.  Islam requires that you defend the faith, your committed to jihad if necessary as a Muslim.
 
New Years 2015, Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi called for a
“religious revolution” in Islam that would displace violent jihad from the center of Muslim discourse.  Is it possible that 1.6 billion people (Muslims worldwide) should want to kill the rest of the world’s population—that is, 7 billion people—so that they themselves may live?” he asked. “Impossible.”

Speaking to an audience of religious scholars celebrating the birth of Islam’s prophet, Mohammed, he called on the religious establishment to lead the fight for moderation in the Muslim world. “You imams (prayer leaders) are responsible before Allah. The entire world—I say it again, the entire world—is waiting for your next move because this umma (a word that can refer either to the Egyptian nation or the entire Muslim world) is being torn, it is being destroyed, it is being lost—and it is being lost by our own hands.”
 
Islam for all that is good about it also defines a class society of humans that by definition the upper class of fully humans are Muslims and and a lower class of those less then human and thus have lives of little or not value.  The distinguishing feature is Islam alone.  
Dave Volek Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:12pm
Lynn
 
I would encourage you to this video: A Muslim feminist is speaking about the hijab.  TED Talks actually has quite a few moderate/reformer Muslims speaking--and they are slowly making an impact on reforming this religion.
 
The job of reforming Islam is not ours. Let these people do what they feel is necessary. In time, hearts inside and outside will be changed towards Islam. 
 
This morning, CBC radio had the head of a national Muslim association of Canada. This mullah was quite explicit that Muslim men are not allowed to harass Muslim women.  
 
I could judge all Christians from the time of the early reformation. That is when Catholics, Lutherans, and Calvinists used to beat the crap out of each other for following the wrong interpretation of the Bible. Thankfully, Christianity eventually grew out of this hatred.
 
Islam will change. Let the reformers do their work.
 
 
Frosty Wooldridge Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:46pm
How exactly do you explain and/or support 20,000 honor killings of women annually in Moslem countries, according to the UN report on honor killings?  What do you find nice about it?  How about the 23 to 27 honor killings annually in the USA of women?  Think that's acceptable for those Moslems in America carrying out their ancient murder ritual, huh, Dave V?  How about the reported 500,000 female genital mutilations now in America according to the Asst. DA for DHS two weeks ago in a report?  Think the women like Islam for that practice?  How about acid in women's faces or throwing gays off buildings Dave V?  You like that stuff because it's all Islam.  Since you think it's so lovely, why not become a Moslem?  
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 23, 2018 - 9:48pm
Lynn Johnson,  at first I was a little dissapointed in thinking I found an echo chamber, but I dont worry about that here anymore. Thats very much why I am a member of Zero Hedge
"I'm a bit confused on how the title of your post ties is with the content of your post.  What does anything you wrote have to do with the increase of Islam in the world?"
 
Unlike my experiences in the church and being proselitized here in the US, my experiences in mosque, that I have shared with you, demonstrate a warmth, a feeling of brother hood. When i felt that I connected to its appeal.
 
"Are you only looking for confirmation?  Like "Wow, Mustafa, what a wonderful experience you had."
No, no confirmation needed. But if you cant see the wonder in my exposition, I should improve my writing skills. It was indeed was a wonderful experience, and I am happy to share it with you.  
 
“Or... Can we share our experiences (good and bad)?  Can we share what we find appealing or unappealing about Islam?”
You can do whatever you like.  but as i said, I am not here to talk about the goodness of Islam, only about what I think may be part of the appeal. In particular; if you convince me that Islam is evil, then my response might be “so, is that the reason why it is on the rise?”
 
 
“Islam is not a religion of peace ,.,…”
It has never been one of peace in the sense you think. the peace it refers to is the peace associated with surrender, surrender to God.
 
“What I am doing [right there] is sharing what I think many people find un-appealing about Islam.”
Thats ok, do you think your example had anything to do with Islam? or because it was apparently a muslim that you think so?
“re you saying that the golden rule IS Christianity?  If so then you are guilty of the same ignorance you accused Mr. Plumb of... The golden rule, while relevant to Christian doctrine, is definitely NOT the encompassing message of the gospel (New Testament).”
 
No, I certainly was not. Plumb said that. I just forgot use quotes. I will get better. I found it as rediculous as his assertion about Christianity and Reason, something Aquinas worked very hard to reconcile
“I do hate Islam. “
IMO: hatred is a sickness. It will hurt you.
 
Again, I am not trying to defend or support it. And again, if your assessment  is correct, “is that the reason why it is on the rise?”
 
 
“Why would that surprise anybody?  I would expect that to be the answer from most Muslims (wherever they are found).  Ask the same question of many of the leftist here on WB and you'd get the same answer.  And... I suspect you agree with that answer (based on your comments).”
 
It certainly would not surprise anybody that is paying attention. For most of my sportswatching religious channel watching american friends, it is a surprise to them. My experience on Zero Hedge, which has few leftist, is that many of them are also in agreement. Maybe you live in an echo chamber
“The enemies of liberty and freedom hate the champions of liberty and freedom.  Big surprise…”
That is certainly happening in our country, without muslims. But what you are saying sounds like that tired meme “They hate us for our freedoms” I thought that one had died. Anyway, our constitution is being destroyed as we speak and a police state is coming
 
“You hate the U.S.  You hate Israel.”
where did you get those ideas? I dont hate, anyone. Anywayk  I am not going to virtue signal and tell you my credentials of my relationship with my country.
As for Israel, I wish them peace and prosperity. In my profession, we have many Jews and I have quite a few life long friends among them, many who have parents that live in Isreal. However, I think they will never achieve any peace unless they stop the apartheid of the Palestinians and stop the stealing of their land. 
 
Hatred is also a sin in many religions. I dont practice it.
 
  
 
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 23, 2018 - 10:19pm
 
Dave, this classic meme about how Islam treats women is so pervasive I must comment on my experience with that also.
 
A muslim friend of mine tells me that the whole “covering oneself” thing is a Saudi psychosis. During Mohammads time men and woman mingled freely without both the need to separate or to cover. All my american mustlm friends wives and daughters do not cover, instead they dress modestly, which means no excessive flashing of flesh. This is true for the men also.  Most of their wives have advanced degrees and are raising their girls so  compete in the modern world of academia and business.
 
An Irananian female friend of mine told me that  she actually likes to cover. She says “we all know that men are weak,. The cover allows us to
be valued for our contributions, not for the shape of our….”
And if you think she woud accept abuse from her husband, .. I dont think so. I rememeber an american film producer who was interviewing a female Iranian film producer. She made a film about a man who had kept his girls imprisoned in his house to keep them out of the male eye. He said, how can that be? Some women are imprisoned and some become famous film direct0rs? BTW, check out the movie Leila, There you will find out who runs the house.
 
Americans like to talk womens rights and equality,. But in both Iran and Turkey  womens contributions in the legisature has been way ahead of here in america for many years. I have checked the math departments in Turkey and they are almost compleley 50/50 male and female with 
No affirmative action. If I remember right the situation is somewhat similar in Iran. Does anyone know the female Iranian mathematician 
Maryam Mirzakhan, that recently won the Fields Medal? She was educated in,,,,, Iran!  Here in the US, they have been doing cartwheels to get women into math, but it just doesnt happen. BTW, the first female fighter pilot was Turkish( although the state was getting very secular at that time).
 
Both Turkish and Persian have NO gender. That is no he/she etc. Just it.
I suspect this inherently creates a more gender egalitarian culture. Yes, things are not perfect and I have read many Turkish and Iranian feminitsts. They are quite vocal and quite powerful in their locution. However, they laugh at western stereotypes and I suspect think American feminism is rediculous;
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 23, 2018 - 10:25pm
Lynn,
" lack the broad exposure you and others seem to have; but I will share one of the few I have had.
 
Tea no... Breakfast yes... with a local businessman.  It scared the ^&*% out of me.  The main statement he made that I remember most clearly was concerning the targeting of Jewish children (by Palestinians).  He said it was a good thing "Because those children grow up to be Jews".


I hear such things alot on Zero Hedge, but not from Muslims.
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 23, 2018 - 10:29pm
Doug Plumg>
"Mustafa: Who do you think is behind Multiculturalism ?
NWO,  its called divide and conquer
 
TexasLynn Added Feb 24, 2018 - 12:15am
Mustafa >> Thats very much why I am a member of Zero Hedge... My experience on Zero Hedge... I hear such things alot on Zero Hedge...
 
Sorry, I don't know what that is... I googled it and... still don't know what it is.  Couldn't maintain the interest necessary to look any further.  It sounds like your presenting ZH as some kind of credentials of open mindedness?  I’m afraid you’ll have come up with something else… or just drop it and rely on your own reason and writing… here… now…
 
Mustafa >> my experiences in mosque, that I have shared with you, demonstrate a warmth, a feeling of brother hood.
 
Like I said, I'm very glad you experienced the moderate side of Islam (not all are so lucky) ... thus your ability to even share it with us.
 
Mustafa >> Unlike my experiences in the church and being proselitized here in the US, my experiences in mosque, that I have shared with you, demonstrate a warmth, a feeling of brother hood. When i felt that I connected to its appeal.
 
Was this an answer to the question what does your description of palling around with Muslmis have to do with your title concerning the increase of Islam in the world?  Are you implying it's growing because they are all such great inclusive guys?  If I'm reading you right... that's it.  Wow!
 
I personally doubt what you describe is the rule... I can, off hand, think of 2,977 people whose exposure to Islam was slightly different fifteen plus years ago.  Many thousands more have died and suffered since then.  Granted they haven't killed the millions atheism has (via Stalin and Mao)... so hey, they've got that going for them.
 
Mustafa >> my response might be “so, is that the reason why it is on the rise?”
 
I'm sorry... you said this a few times and I'm horrible on picking up on subtle/clever messages?  You're going to have to spell it out.  I don't do riddles.  I like blunt bullet points please.
 
Why is Islam on the rise?  OK... I'll give it a shot... objectively I'd saaayyyy... They are invading foreign lands and breeding like rabbits.  That would be my first guess.  And the foreign lands opening the gates to the invaders sure doesn't hurt.  They are dam sure not on the rise because of huggy-feely inclusion festivals for open-minded infidels.
 
Mustafa >> It has never been one of peace in the sense you think.
 
It's not what I think... it's what the politically correct leftist think or at least push through the media.  I think Islam, by nature, is oppressive, murderous, and fascist.
 
Mustafa >> the peace it refers to is the peace associated with surrender, surrender to God.
 
Yeah, yeah... surrender to Allah (not God, there is a difference) and receive peace. 
 
Then there is blow up infidels and receive piece (42 pieces of %^*%... booyah!) from pimp-daddy Allah.  Now that’s a religion concerned about the next life.  Heaven is literally one big repetitive orgasm; at least for some willing to go all in.  (No pun intended).
 
In whatever sense "you think” of Islam and peace, it’s an oxymoron.  Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength, Islam is Peace.
TexasLynn Added Feb 24, 2018 - 12:15am
Mustafa >> Thats ok, do you think your example (support of Palestinians killing Jewish Children) had anything to do with Islam?
 
It had EVERYTHING to do with Islam.  His embrace of Islam drove EVERY bit of that vile thought.
 
Mustafa >> "I do hate Islam." IMO: hatred is a sickness. It will hurt you.
 
Embracing (or ignoring) a viper, pretending it is a peaceful friend/ally will hurt you more.  More on hate below...
 
Mustafa >> Again, I am not trying to defend or support it. And again, if your assessment  is correct, “is that the reason why it is on the rise?”
 
Good and evil... embracing or rejecting... have nothing to do with things "on the rise" or decline.  Why is socialism on the rise?  It is almost as vile a philosophy.
 
In the case of Islam?  The reason is invasion and lots of fu&*ing. (Not necessarily in that order).
 
Mustafa >> Anyway, our constitution is being destroyed as we speak and a police state is coming.
 
Wow... something we agree on.  Will the Muslims be the barbarians who come in and clean it all up afterward?  Or maybe the Canadians...
 
Mustafa >> Where did you get those ideas? I dont hate, anyone.
 
Oh please... (eyes rolling) now you sound like Opher (a WB member with similar claims).  (see more on hate below)
 
Mustafa >> Anywayk  I am not going to virtue signal...
 
Sorry, I don't know that that is... (it sounds like leftist blather) and I don't care enough to google it.  Please be less cryptic and speak "old man" if possible.
 
Mustafa >> Hatred is also a sin in many religions.
 
If that a generality, or do you have a few specifics in mind?  Islam dam sure isn't on that list…
 
Mustafa >> I dont practice it (hate).
 
Says everybody completely lacking in intellectual honesty who wish to maintain a facade of social/moral superiority.
 
Luckily, my religion is not so restrictive.  While love is encompassing... I am instructed to hate on a very specific level.
 
Romans 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
 
I hate Islam.  Why, should be clear.
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 24, 2018 - 3:00am
Lynn,
“Sorry, I don't know what that is... I googled it and... still don't know what it is.  Couldn't maintain the interest necessary to look any further.  It sounds like your presenting ZH as some kind of credentials of open mindedness?  
 
A simple Google search comes up with
https://www.zerohedge.com
at the TOP of what I get;
As for open mindedness, thats really funny, really funny.  You should not go there, youj could say it might be an echo chamber for your hate.
 
“I’m afraid you’ll have come up with something else… or just drop it and rely on your own reason and writing… here… now…”
 
Sorry, Ive always been bad at taking unsolicited advice. I am not going to suggest  that you learn to use a computer.
 
“Like I said, I'm very glad you experienced the moderate side of Islam (not all are so lucky) ... thus your ability to even share it with us.”
Forgive me if this sounds a bit disengenious.
 
 
“Was this an answer to the question what does your description of palling around with Muslmis have to do with your title concerning the increase of Islam in the world?  Are you implying it's growing because they are all such great inclusive guys?  If I'm reading you right... that's it.  Wow!”
 
This is getting convoluted. It was an answer to your question about the relevance of my post to its title.
 
“personally doubt what you describe is the rule... I can, off hand, think of 2,977 people whose exposure to Islam was slightly different fifteen plus years ago.  Many thousands more have died and suffered since then.  “
You have an impressive memory. This BTW, sounds like you are in an echo chamber.,
Regarding the many thousands that have died and suffered, are you speaking of the close to 
1 million Iraqis during the invasion of Iraq? or the over half million Iranians during the US proxy Iraq/Iranian war or the half million Iraqi?
Or maybe you are thinking of the destruction of Libya? Afghanistan? Yemen? Syria?
 
““Mustafa >> my response might be “so, is that the reason why it is on the rise?”
 'm sorry... you said this a few times and I'm horrible on picking up on subtle/clever messages?  You're going to have to spell it out.  I don't do riddles.  I like blunt bullet points please.”
That is because you are not paying attention and constantly devolving into your own narrative.
The title of my post had something to do with my thoughts on the rise of Islam. If we can accept this as true, then if Islam is as evil as you suggest, then I am asking you does this imply that the reason for this rise is because of the evil you assert?  You constantly revert to countering my apparent support of Islam. As I said, I am not doing that. I am sharing my experience and how I think it may be related to the rise.
 
“Why is Islam on the rise?  OK... I'll give it a shot... objectively I'd saaayyyy... They are invading foreign lands and breeding like rabbits.  That would be my first guess.  And the foreign lands opening the gates to the invaders sure doesn't hurt.  They are dam sure not on the rise because of huggy-feely inclusion festivals for open-minded infidels.”
 
Your logic, if you can call it that, is backwards. but your last adhomin filled statement, when you eliminate the adhominen is correct.
 
“Mustafa >> It has never been one of peace in the sense you think.
 
It's not what I think... it's what the politically correct leftist think or at least push through the media.  I think Islam, by nature, is oppressive, murderous, and fascist.”
 
Fine, I was just listening to what you said. I think the exact same thing can be said of the Religion of Love.

“Mustafa >> the peace it refers to is the peace associated with surrender, surrender to God.
 Yeah, yeah... surrender to Allah (not God, there is a difference) and receive peace. “
You seem to know alot about everything. Everyone I met in Turkey, I suggest  they disagree with you. 
 
““Mustafa >> Thats ok, do you think your example (support of Palestinians killing Jewish Children) had anything to do with Islam?
 
It had EVERYTHING to do with Islam.  His embrace of Islam drove EVERY bit of that vile thought.”” 
 How do you know that? As I said, if you use the link I gave you to ZH, you will find similar sentiments among a large bunch of to the right non muslims. Without further information your inference is flawed. 
 
“Embracing (or ignoring) a viper, pretending it is a pe
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 24, 2018 - 3:01am
Continuing my posting problems:
“Embracing (or ignoring) a viper, pretending it is a peaceful friend/ally will hurt you more.  More on hate below…” 
This a classic false dichotomy, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/false_dichotomy
Not hating does not imply ignoring or embracing.  When I am in combat, hating blinds me to my task at hand.
 

“Mustafa >> Anywayk  I am not going to virtue signal...
 
Sorry, I don't know that that is... (it sounds like leftist blather) and I don't care enough to google it.  Please be less cryptic and speak "old man" if possible.”
Virtue signalling is a fallacy heavily used by both left and right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling
I am not going to present my credentials to support my love of my country. It has no bearing on the validity or lack thereof of my arguments.
 
But I will say this:  Our government has highjacked our country. So although I love my country, I am working to find a way  to undo the stranglehold the MIC and the CIA and  AIPAC, and DHS have on it. 
 
So, you are an old timer, like me, so that means maybe you can read a book.
Have you read A Mosque in Munich? I dont suppose you will read The Road to Mecca I recommended, which I do highly recommend, and BTW it aint no huggily lovely fest. But this book even old muzzy haters can read. It describes how the Nazi’s developed Turkish Muslims in Russia as both a fifth column in Russia and formal battallions  for the Nazis. Then after the Nazis lost, the CIA took that relationship and used it in the cold war against Russia. The CIA and the Muslim Brotherhood have been tight going back to just post WW2. 
It also discloses the tight relationship between the pre CIA and the Nazis. The CIA funding Osama Bin Laden occured 40 years after this cozy little relationship started. And as for the CIA? Try The Devils Chessboard. It gives a long list of the
 the violence and mischief the CIA and the MIC have been up to since the glory days of Allen Dulles who first tasted blood with the Mosadeq coup in Iran in 1953, and  went on a tear from there destroying democracies and instituting facist regimes, all in the name of making the world safe for democracy.
 
So, do I hate my country? no, but I wont ignore our governments and deep states crimes.
If you do and you look at muslim violence in isolation you miss alot. 
 
Mustafa
 
 
 
 
Flying Junior Added Feb 24, 2018 - 4:08am
I'm sorry.  I am super tired.  I mostly love people that love other people.
 
Peace out,
 
FJ
 
Taking care of my family tomorrow morning.
 
Yeah.  No problem with Muslims from where I am standing.
TexasLynn Added Feb 24, 2018 - 10:25am
Mustafa,  I do appreciate your post and you comments addressing and tolerating heretics like myself; which is not to imply you are Muslim or even religious.
 
Expanding further on our exchange...
 
ZeroHedge:
Like I said, I googled it and what I read did not peak my interest enough to go any further.  I don't have the time to do more than one discussion board.  For now... it's WB.  When Autumn gets tired of me... I may look for another one (or not, who knows).
 
On Using a Computer:
LMAO... I'm not the one having all kinds of formatting problems here.  Are you doing this on a phone or tablet or something?  Do you know what the little hyperlink button does?  Granted that character limit thing gets me sometimes too.
 
Give me grief over my spelling, grammar, or proof-reading?  You got me...  guilty as charged. :)
 
Your Answer on Relevance of Title and Post
You imply your pleasant experience with nice Muslims is a major factor in the growing of the religion.  Yep... I got it (and stated that).  Thank you for the clarification.
 
My Take on You Answer:
I assert that implication is objectively farcical.  If it were true, the evidence would me a massive conversion to Islam going on in the world.  There is no such conversion. If I'm reading your post correctly, you didn't even convert.  I would suggest that more people are killed by Muslims every year (because they are not Muslim) than convert every year.
 
I also assert that Islam is growing because they are making babies faster than anybody else.
 
One of us is objectively closer to the truth.
 
Your Take on My Answer:
You keep asking "...does this imply that the reason for this rise is because of the evil you assert?"
 
I don't know how much clearer I can be...
 
"Good and evil... have nothing to do with things 'on the rise' or decline."
 
Evil has nothing to do with it.  Good has nothing to do with it.  Making BABIES have everything to do with it.
 
The Dead:
Regarding the multitudes that have died and suffered, I am speaking of all, no matter of race or creed, who have perished because of the terror dictated by Mohamed and implemented in recent times by his followers (no matter who is goading them to do it).  They (the dead) are the fruits of Islam.
 
On My Conversation:
I talked to a Muslim about his support of other Muslims killing Jewish children because they are the people Muslims hate.  And you keep asking me how do I know if it's related to Islam?  It's like asking me how do I know gravity causes things to fall.  Answer: Yes.  How do I know?  Reason... logic... observation… obvious correlation.
 
Did I reach for the guys hands, look deep into his eyes and ask, "Are your feelings on this subject due to Islam in any way?"  No... I didn't.  Because it would have been a stupid question with an obvious answer.
 
Since I didn't do that, by your "logic" I can't correlate the two... my "inference is flawed"?  Sheesh!
TexasLynn Added Feb 24, 2018 - 10:25am
On Suggested Reading and Suchlike:
Thank you.  As with anybody, I will take all your suggestions to heart. Really.
 
On Zero Hedge; I'm sure they appreciate the plug.  I just don't have the time or interest.
 
On learning to use a computer; as an IT guy for twenty something years I'm smarter in that regard than the average bear but I'll try to work my way up to your impeccable standards.  (While that was sarcasm, was it also virtue signaling?)
 
On books; thank you for the recommendation.  Really.  You have planted the seed.  Am I going to read it RIGHT NOW.  No.  I think my next endeavor is the works of Dietrich Bonhoeffer based on the suggestion of another WB participant.
 
My Hatred of What I Consider Evil:
I do want to clarify that my hatred is for the doctrine (which I consider evil), not the people.  I do not hate the overwhelming majority of Muslims (as defined as those who profess Islam as their religion).  The majority are luke-warm peaceful practitioners.  I hate to the minority of Muslims who are faithful to Islam's teachings whom I assert are the terrorists.
 
Again, thank you for the post and the thread.
Neil Lock Added Feb 24, 2018 - 12:48pm
Mustafa: Thanks for a fine post.
 
I was brought up as a moderate English Protestant, but I rejected Christianity at the age of 16. Since then, I've been out to the far reaches of atheism, and about half way back again. These days, my answer to "is there a god?" is "I don't know, and I don't care." And my general attitude to religion is: "If you let me have my religion (or lack of it), I'll let you have yours."
 
But I lived and worked among Muslims in Bandung, Indonesia for three months back in 1983. And it was one of the happiest times of my life. Lovely place, lovely people. And they accepted me for what I am - a wild Westerner who, if perhaps a little bit privileged compared to them, is still very much on the side of good people.
 
Now, there are things I don't like about Islam - the idea of surrender to a god's will isn't one this particular individualist can stomach, at least not without a stiff drink! (Fortunately, you can still get Dutch beer and Australian wine in Indonesia).
 
But whatever may (or may not) be the shortcomings of Islam, I see no reason why I should negatively pre-judge any Muslim person. (Nor Jew, nor Christian, nor atheist, neither). One of my aphorisms is: "It isn't who you are that matters, but what you do." And I try hard to keep to that. It's a pity that too many, even in a forum such as WriterBeat, aren't prepared to allow people of different cultures and religions the benefit of the doubt.
 
As to US foreign policy... (or, in fact, any Western country's foreign policy...) yes, they don't seem to like Middle Eastern people very much, do they?
 
Once again, thank you and welcome to WB!
Doug Plumb Added Feb 24, 2018 - 4:37pm
re "Are you saying that the golden rule IS Christianity?  If so then you are guilty of the same ignorance you accused Mr. Plumb of... The golden rule, while relevant to Christian doctrine, is definitely NOT the encompassing message of the gospel (New Testament)."
 
It is. You and I say the same thing. I say it much more abstractly and generally and at a level of sophistication that goes over your head. Most of your post describing the doctrines of Christianity are what people would learn in a church. I understand it as deduced from philosophy, specifically Kant. There is no better Christian scholar in the last 800 years or so than Kant, and that includes you.
Doug Plumb Added Feb 24, 2018 - 4:40pm
I don't see the particular experiences with Muslims as a way to judge the religion. A religion should be judged by its doctrines, not by how its members practice.
  None of this matters, under Islamic law, Christians have no rights because its a supremist religion. That is all you need to know to reject it completely.
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 24, 2018 - 5:41pm
Hello Doug, you wanted my response on the demi issue.
I misunderstood. I understand the word dhimmi, yes non muslims, usually of the Abrahamic faiths living under Muslim rule.
 
They pay a tax, but they have protected status as members of the state. Moreover, they do not have to perform military service.
Under Ottoman rule, for the most part the Jewish dhimmi thrived and were essential parts of the Ottoman apparatus.
During meltdowns the tax sometimes would get abusive, but as i understand it generally was not. An empire that lasted 700 years had its ups and downs with the peak generally considered under Suleyman, the law giver. I think most were happy to trade that for not having to take up arms and being protected by the law, the kanun.
 
As a middle class person I pay a large chunk of tax. Some of my very rich neighbors pay very little. I havent done the calculations but I would guess my taxes are more oppressive than the dhimmi.
 
A fine account  of the history of the Ottomans is that of Lord Kinross
https://www.amazon.com/Ottoman-Centuries-Lord-Kinross/dp/0688080936/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1519511734&sr=8-8&keywords=ottoman+empire
 
But if you would like to get a very personal account, read
Lady Mary Monteque’s letters, who visited there as the wife of an ambassor  from the Hapsburghs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Mary_Wortley_Montagu
 
She makes some very startling observations that contradict the running memes, memes that have been running for centuries but will never die.
 
Mustafa
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 24, 2018 - 6:15pm
Lynn,
If you have ever seen what Gaza looks like under the blockade and how they live and how they die from Israelis, maybe you can understand that that may generate some hatred. You can also say the same for some Israelis. And hatred will make many people say and do things that are evil.
  
Moreover, to project that onto a general class is  a more extreme form of  fallacy than faulty generalization, because faulty generalization would be your generalizing to a  whole class from one instantiation where the statement comes from his musliim faith. It is larger because his statement may have little to do with his faith but really come from his pain, possibly related to dead nephews and nieces.   As I said, I know many white americans who might say the same thing so it doesnt necessarily come from Islam.
 
I suggest it comes from hate. I know no muslims, including Palestinians, that would condone such a thing.
CRM 114 Added Feb 24, 2018 - 10:18pm
Islam allows slavery.
Islam denies every precept of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Every muslim majority nation has signed the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam, which states Sharia is an absolute. They have also signed the UN Declaration, which tells you all you need to know about honesty in Islam. Of course, when they say Human Rights in Islam, you must realise that only an adult, heterosexual muslim male counts as a human. Everyone else gets less, including, say, the right to Death for adulterers, or the right to be beaten if you are a wife, or the right to be a sex slave if you are a woman captured in conflict. I could go on, but read it for yourself. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 24, 2018 - 11:24pm
Mustafa Kemal, look at the treatment of Muslims in Israel and then Muslims actions in Lebanon.  It is clear that the PLO wanted a Muslim nation and as they said and wrote push Jews and Christians into the sea.  
  
Israel's Arab population in 2013 was 20.7%. After the 1967 6 Day War they were offered Israel citizenship, and the government dismantled most of the discriminatory laws.  Arab citizens are entitled to vote for the Knesset and have served in offices since the First Knesset. The defensible borders made these changes possible. Israel's neighbors for the third time attacked them.  The territory lost created the present boundaries with some changes due to treaties. The lose was so devastating that no further attempts to use military force has occurred since.
 
"WWI ended the French mandated the establishment of a state of Lebanon 1920 that was designed to favor Christians.  And created the Greater Lebanon area that decreased a 58% majority Christian area to 54% by adding the Lebanon Mountains.  The 1943 Pact made the 1920 agreement stronger.  The major government posts were held by Christians.  Thus, "Muslims saw Israel as the main enemy to the Arab world and that any cooperation with it would be considered treason. Patriarch Antoine Arida was the first Christian leader to sign a Zionist-Maronite treaty of 1946."

By 1968 Lebanese Muslims our numbered Christians due to birth rate and Christian emigration.  Muslims demanded several government changes including an end to the accord that reserved key positions for Maronites (1920 and 1943). 
 
Shari'a's differentiation of people on the basis of their religious identity.
 
Lebanese Christians mindful of past atrocities inflected on Christians in the Middle East. (Armenian genocide and Coptic is Sudan and Egypt.)  [ the Caliphate was the issue behind Lebanese Civil War."   
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/lebanon.htm
 
 
"When the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) was added to the mix, everything exploded. The PLO was already ensconced in Lebanon in the 1960s and tensions increased. A compromise was reached with the Cairo agreement of 1969, granting Palestinian militants the right to keep weapons in their camps and attack Israel in the south, provided they respect Lebanese law and sovereignty. In 1970, the PLO was expelled from Jordan after failing to topple King Hussein and established their main base in Lebanon. This changed everything. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians entered the country, and the PLO, with about 23,000 troops, was now larger than the Lebanese army.  Arafat grew bolder and began to misbehave, flouting Lebanese laws, setting up roadblocks and engaging in extortion, and harassing local populations."
http://reasons-and-opinions.blogspot.com/2006/08/lebanese-civil-war-for-dummies_25.html
 
 
Since Islam is both a religion and a Government the Lebanese Muslim leaders that included 
Rex Added Feb 26, 2018 - 9:50am
Mustafa,
I have never understood the appeal of ANY religion or religious philosophy that turns intelligent people into adherents of behavior that if espoused by another group would be condemned by normal people.
 
. To me they have the same need to indoctrinate people into their "club".
 
As I have studied history religions as well as dictatorships  all want people to fall in line and adhere to the dictates of the particular ideology - with no individual thought allowed.
 
I have studied Nazi German history in particular it is very dangerous to have any philosophy that takes personal responsibility away form the person acting on behalf of that philosophy whether it is a type of government or a religion.
 
During the trials for Nazis  the same excuse "I was only following orders,"  was the only  justification for slaughtering people in concentration camps.
The way radicals now approach killing off others on internet videos and in news programs that show the aftermath of bombings.
 
The Untied States was founded because of the commingling of religion and government, to separate them.  Currently in the Middle east they are also commingling religion and government with even more horrific results.
 
I am not saying that religion is a bad thing per se but when political power is given to groups they pay God and destroy anyone with the slightest difference in philosophy.
 
Can some one explain to me why anyone would choose to set off a bomb and kill them selves and innocent people for a promise of a great afterlife?
 
I have followed the tenets of Roman Catholicism and was surprised to realize that  - in my 50's. Only had one man / husband do not lie, steal etc. Where we differ is that I was always on the Pill and never had children by choice - Ideas that run counter to that religious philosophy.
 
After the pedophilia scandal among priests came out  I never set foot in the church again. Not all of the priests committed the act - but many of the knew about it did nothing  to end it.
 
 
 
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Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 26, 2018 - 4:03pm
All, as I have tried to remind several times I have no real opinion on the religion of Islam as to whether it is good or evil.
 
But I will say this to those that discuss theology here.
 
Is there one Christianity? Do the Catholics agree the Protestants or the Evangelicals  as to what Christianity is? Do they agree that
Jesus was God? Do they agree that the Eucharist is literaly
the Body of Christ? 
 
In the same way  there is no (one) Islam. There are many different versions, indeed, there are Qurans that are outlawed in KSA/.
There are Sunni and Shia and dont forget the Nizari!
There are many versions of the law, the sharia and those supposedly are crafted to fit local conditions ( not the other way around).  So if you yell 
They are bringing Sharia. then you might specific as to what you mean
 
Finally, according to the Saker,  http://thesaker.is
 in his book The Essential Saker,
he makes the claim that Russians see no problems with the compatibility of their Orthodox Christianity and Islam. They feel that they can live together quite well
Moreover, he points out a major difference in Russia versus Western poiicy regarding Islam: When the CIA inserted its Islamist terrorists into Chechnya as part of our continuing war in Russia, the Russians simply went in and killed them. According to the Saker, both the Christians and the Muslims were happy with the result.
 
Dave Volek Added Feb 26, 2018 - 4:35pm
Mustafa
 
Unfortunately, more than a few contributors of WB tend to regard all Islam as one monolithic faith. And they tend to associate Islam with ISIS, meaning all Muslims have terrorist tendencies.
 
Maybe you need to start some new WB articles on the different divisions within Islam.  For example, what is the different between Sunni and Shia? Maybe the four or five schools within Sunni? Then maybe other offshoots of Islam, such as Amidiya, Ismail, Nation of Isalm, etc.? Each one of these questions could constitute an article by themselves.
 
And maybe you can talk about the differences in interpretation between various Islamic terms such as 1) sharia, 2) jihad, and 3) fatwa.
 
You have a chance to educate people here.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
TexasLynn Added Feb 26, 2018 - 5:19pm
>> All, as I have tried to remind several times I have no real opinion on the religion of Islam as to whether it is good or evil.
 
Yes, Mustafa, we got the message... I'm sorry, we just don't believe you.  I think your post and your comments bear that out.
 
This repeated assertion is more an attempt to limit debate than a statement of fact; at best a subconscious attempt.  Giving the benefit of the doubt... I'll go with that. 
 
Sorry, we didn't comply.  We're a stubborn lot... :)
 
Next time, be more direct.  Just say "I only want warm-fuzzy comments that support my opinion... not experience or opinions that are critical of or contradict mine."  I, for one, would respect that request... and not read/comment.
 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 
Addressing your rhetorical questions...
 
>> Is there one Christianity?
 
Yes.  2+2=4.  There is ONE Church, ONE Christianity.
 
Do all who profess Christ (claim to be Christian) belong to His Church?  No.
 
See: I Never Knew You
 
>> Do the Catholics agree the Protestants or the Evangelicals as to what Christianity is?
 
No denomination will get everything right.  By our flawed human nature that is impossible.  That fact does not equate to there not being one truth to every objective question.
 
Christ is God (borrowing your Question below), or He isn't.  There is no yeah, kinda, half-way middle ground there.
 
Having no clue what 2+2 is, or believing with all my heart that it is 5... has no relevance to the fact that there is ONE true answer to the question... what is 2+2.
 
I can tell you I'm a fiddler crab.  I can believe with all my heart I'm a fiddler crab.  Am I fiddler crab.  Today's subjective world is very close to saying "yes".  A world that just wants everybody to get along, says yes.
 
That said, it is possible to get the foundation of His teachings correct.  That foundation is what leads to one being Christian (in His book, the Book of Life); and that (at the end of the age) is the only definition that counts.
 
>> Do they agree that Jesus was God?
 
By definition, Christians agree that Jesus is God (that is a foundation question).  To dissent on this fact is to deny Christ and Christianity.
 
>> Do they agree that the Eucharist is literally the Body of Christ?
 
No, luckily that is not a foundational (salvation) issue.
TexasLynn Added Feb 26, 2018 - 5:20pm
Dave >> Unfortunately, more than a few contributors of WB tend to regard all Islam as one monolithic faith.
 
Just to clarify, as a critic of Islam (and one Dave may be referring to).  I understand that there are "sects" of Islam.  That is obvious given their internal wars (past and present) with each other.  (Not that Christians have escaped that sin).  And I have no doubt that some are worse (much worse) than others.
 
When I am critical of Islam, I am critical of the Koran and the teachings of Mohamed as I have read and understand them.  I am critical of the misery and death a minority of those who follow Mohamed have inflicted upon the world.  Having read the Koran, I do think theirs is the correct interpretation of what Mohamed envisioned.
 
>> And they tend to associate Islam with ISIS ...
 
Yes... because ISIS is the closest to following the true intent of Mohamed (as I have read it).  Granted, there are people who say I have misread it.  That's a fair point and one very open to debate.  I by no means am an expert, or have I delved into that book as much as many, many others.  Convince me I'm wrong; it will not be the first time.
 
>> ... meaning all Muslims have terrorist tendencies.
 
No...
 
I will say this about the majority of Muslims
• They moderate Islam and thus practice it in a peaceful way, thus NOT terrorists and NOT ISIS.
• Their interpretation is not what Mohamed intended (based simply on what I've read in the Koran).
• They are not the ones producing the fruits (real results) of Islam.  They are, for the most part, inconsequential in that department.
 
>> Maybe you need to start some new WB articles on the different divisions within Islam.... You have a chance to educate people here.
 
I would welcome that, if for no other reason than to better understand.  I read the Koran for the same reason.
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 26, 2018 - 10:14pm
Dave,
"And maybe you can talk about the differences in interpretation between various Islamic terms such as 1) sharia, 2) jihad, and 3) fatwa."
Can you imagine the quality of the dueling monologues, or the chaos of monologues  that would  unsue? 
 
 
The idea sounds very unappealing.
See my following response to Lynn.
 
Mustafa
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 26, 2018 - 10:15pm
Lynn, I think you wanted to know if I had any negative experiences in Turkey. 
 
I had two:
1) I got in a taxicab and the guy was very large Arab/Turk and he was hostile from the start. I like speaking with taxi drivers and this one was no exception. But he was damn sure I was cia or some kind of spy, and when he asked my name I told him he could call me Azhan Bey, ( Sir Spy). He liked that so much that his big, and I mean really big right arm jerked up and swing his fist into my face, with thumb out as if to poke his thumb in my eye.  So, after he did this once I started to develop a plan. He was accurate enough in missing my face that I thought he actually had some skill so, I tapped him on the arm and looked at him straight in the face and smiled. I tried to let him know that I was looking forward to our upcoming adventure as I planned a Bagua strike to his adams apple. :The bagua strike is open hand a flat knife like palm. After training, you can launch it  and if you do it well,  he may day or he may never speak again, but he will be hurting. So I prepared and I spoke to him about another hostile interaction that I had there. He did it once more but I think he got the idea that I would strike soon. He eventually settled down. As we departed he said Gorushuruz Azhan Bey ( see you Sir Spy)
,
2) this is the story I told him.  When we arrived in Gaziantep, we made it to a central plaza with a huge statue of Mustafa Kemal. Gaziantep is extremely interesting,. The old Jewish quarter has a long street filled with music shops. Instruments for sale, cds, printed musick lessons. Bagpipes, flutes, Quite wonderful. There was an old estate there that we visited
that had, on the second floor, a little vestibule and an open window with what looked like a sink in it, but it was not. It was a birdbath, and indoor birdbath. BTW the Ottomans had building codes which specified that to compensate the birds for loss of territory the buildings had to include built in bird houses, so the old houses in the top had these rows of inset bird houses. Someone told me that they had back doors so that one could open them up and collect the eggs but I never verified this or could get confirmation or denial.
Anyway, to the adventure: We had arrived about a weak after a terrorist boming had occured and killed 7 or 8 people very close this plaza.
We are standing in the middle of this plaza underdeath Mustafa Kemal and I see this very big boy making rather quick beeline for me. When i say big, I mean 6’2’ say 240, not musclebound but not fat, thick. Thick arms, legs and head. BTW, I am 6’2” 185 and blond. He walked up and stuck his face about 3 inches from mine and looking straight into my eyes  asked “What the fuck are you doing here?” BTW, I never spoke any English in Turkey, only Turkish, but my level is what I would call middle, so I make quite a few blunders, and I made some doozies.  But I have much experience with roughians so I told him
“ I came to see how the darkies lived” He smiled and became a little milder. We spoke for some time and then he returned to serious and swung his left arm around my shoulders. Well, I Turkey as in most of the ME, physical contact between males is not weird at all, so I settled into his embrace and prepared to take his knee out and run. After a while I got uncomfortable so I swung my right arm about his shoulders. There we were two rather large boys arm in arm in the plaza and me not trying to let him see me watching where is knee was and trying to keep the strike open. We stayed talking like this for some time. It could have been 30 seconds or 5 minute I dont know it was so intense. Then after a while he whispered in my ear “polis” Then smiles all around and Chok Teshekkur ederim arkashim ( thank you very much my freind). Police in Turkey on border with Syria in 2014. I would not like to be under his interrogation I will tell you that.
 
I think the cab driver got the idea that I was no going down so easily . So he became more civilized.
 
Does that sound warm and fuzzy Lynn? Can you pull any of your theological, me subconciously promoting Islam, honest debate  limiting out of that? Or can you take it as a relay of my experiences 100 miles from Aleppo in 2014 with Abu Bakr al Baghdadi in the neighorhood.
 
 
3) Let me add one more, this one not dangerous.
When I was in Urfa, home of Abrahams birth place and his cave, and Jobs well and cave,
I stumbled onto a weapons shop. This was not your US weapon type shop, more like AK47 by the pound type of place. I was curious, could Turks just walk in and by this stuff?, so I stopped in for a visit.Immediately the hair rose on everybodies necks in there. So I was chatting with the salesmen trying to find out how this works here and he changes the subject to converting
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 26, 2018 - 10:20pm
Lynn, ,continued from above:
converting me to Islam. Now, one distinct impression I had of being proselityzed in Turkey was  they dont push. Unlike here where I get some snot nosed kid concerned that my soul that will  burn fire and sulpher for eternity, a child who has never raised a family and is so new to the world that he should be listening instead of talking, in Turkey, the method is much more subtle. They buy you tea and you enjoy and then during the pleasantries they might tell you tale from the Quran. I enjoyed all these attempts at proselityzing me. Anyway, this guy was not doing a good job because he was really trying to get me out of the shop. So, I  looked down at some of the bladed weapons and said “do you have any butterfly knives?” (I have trained with them and they are my weapon of choice, and thought maybe I might pick one up here, if it was legal for me) Well, he pulls out this dinky souvenir thing. I told him that if he expected me to convert to Islam he needed show me a better knife than that. Everyone laughed and their mood improved as they could see that i was using this as my segue to exit.  I said the classic store departing line and they were happy to see me go.
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 27, 2018 - 9:22am
Lynn, here
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02-26/erdogan-sparks-outrage-after-telling-sobbing-girl-if-you-are-martyred-we-will-honor
 
you can observe classic Zero Hedge hostility and my attempt to share what I know of Turkey’s history with regard to Erdogan publicly comforting al little girt terrified of dying the coming fights.
He announces on TV and tells her that if she is martyred that they will bury her with honors.
 
Pardero Added Mar 1, 2018 - 10:20pm
Mustafa,
Although I can never share your opinions on Islam, we have common ground on almost every other issue.
I regret your choice for a debut article. I hope it doesn't limit your ability to reach outstanding people who would be potential brothers in arms on other issues.
I hope very much that you will write many more articles on other issues.
Mustafa Kemal Added Mar 2, 2018 - 12:11am
Pardero,
It was only an entrance, an experiment, to test what Autumn might find interesting.
Just testing the waters.
 
Shall I speak of warblers? 
or Medicine Lodge Creek in the Bighorn Mountains?
 
Mustafa
 
Pardero Added Mar 2, 2018 - 1:35am
Hehe. 
I only comment occasionally at ZeroHedge. I am Vic and Blood there.
Pardero Added Mar 2, 2018 - 1:41am
You did well. Especially on a polarizing subject. I regret that you alienated some writers that I admire. 
If you called for a ban on semi-autos or more perpetual Middle East Wars for perpetual peace and democracy, you could possibly alienate me, but I know that won't happen.
Mustafa Kemal Added Mar 2, 2018 - 1:46am
Pardero arkadaşım
thanks for leveling. I was saying, who the hell could Pardero be here?
Mustafa
Stephen Hunter Added Mar 2, 2018 - 8:16am
Great article Mustafa, thanks for sharing your experiences. The more we get to know our fellow humans, the better off the planet will be. We all share the same resources and we share the same future. 
I do work with Muslims, (I think we at one time counted 11 different nations which people in our Toronto office originated from- either first or 2nd generation) 
At our Holiday party last year, my Muslim buddy wore a Santa hat. I took a selfie with him, and posted on FB, that this muslim wishes all of you MERRY CHRISTMAS! 
Mustafa Kemal Added Mar 2, 2018 - 11:15am
Stephen, I have a muslim friend who expressed annoyance that someome came up to his dinner table and told them Merry Christmas and hoped that Santa would bring his children (sitting at the table)
what they wished for. He said, they quite didnt know to respond. Since then, every Christmas when we meet for our friday tea and coffee, when we depart I tell him Merry Christmas and a warm smile comes on his face and we embrace.
 
On the other hand, when it is Ramazan time, I tell him
"Hayırlı işleriniz olsun"
(May your works be filled with goodness, in Turkish) and the warm smile comes along with an embrace.
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Mar 2, 2018 - 11:51am
Pardero, re:
"if you called for a ban on semi-autos"
I have, what I think, is an amusing story here.
 
I went to the local gunshop with a muslim friend of mine, a US citizen and a local resident.  He decided to purchase a Chech semi auto, I forget which model. He is a decent shot BTW. So, this store is all quiet, but when they go to run his background check, the guy gets on the phone  while running the check and announces, quite loudly:
 
” the name.  Name1  Mohammed,  Name3”. 
 
You should have seen that place! I wish i had a movie camera. I think I would have won an award!  He kept his cool and when we got out of the store and into the parking lot, we laughed about it for some time .
 
BTW,  he voted for Trump.
 
Benjamin Goldstein Added Mar 2, 2018 - 7:19pm
Any person who votes for Trump and is into guns has my support.
Pardero Added Mar 21, 2018 - 10:14pm
Mustafa,
That is hilarious. Be sure to read ACE. A sharp writer and lives just down the interstate a ways from me. Unusually clear and informed writer is nationalistic in all the good ways with none of the wrong-headed ways. Be sure to test your like on everything you read, especially tour own.
Pardero Added Mar 21, 2018 - 10:14pm
Oops "your"

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