Armed guard vs armed teacher, what's the difference?

All over the country people are demanding armed guards at their schools yet at the same time most of them shudder at the thought the schools might allow trained teachers and administrators to carry concealed guns while they work.  I suspect few realize how easy it is for anyone without a criminal record to become a "qualified" gun carrying security guard.  

 

I have shot a lot my entire life and don't think anyone, security guards, police, or even teachers can learn how to handle guns well enough to be truly proficient and safe in a few weeks, that takes lots of practice over years, however between the two, I'd speculate able bodied teachers who are willing, will be more responsible than the average security guard who we're lucky if they have a High School diploma.  

 

Many people who work as security guards and lots of teachers and administrators that work in schools grew up using guns, and lots have carried concealed for years.  Many of them are quite proficient and have proven they can carry concealed for many years without incident.  Allowing them to carry concealed is very unlikely to cause problems, would be safer and less expensive than hiring lesser qualified security guards, and might even do the job better.

 

In active shooter cases one of the first people who are usually shot is the armed security guard, because they pose an obvious threat to the shooter, and most of the time they shoot them without warning.  Unarmed guards get shot much less often.  That is why I am in favor of concealed carry.

 

A teacher with a concealed gun doesn't have to do anything but wait, and if the threat shows up and they think they have a good safe shot, take the shot.  No one is suggesting they start firing wildly, we just want them to have the ability to shoot or deter an active shooter if doing so can be done safely.

 

As for all the people who can't breath when they see a gun, do you freak out every time you go past and armed guard in other places?  Do you start shaking when you see a Brinks truck?  Do you think you children would be safer if the schools weren't hiring armed guards?

Comments

George N Romey Added Feb 23, 2018 - 3:11pm
Teachers and school administrators have little to no desire to play Keystone Cop and I don’t blame. They know damn well if they are involved in a shooting their life will be turned inside out. It’s one of the dumbest ideas I’ve heard in my life. We need to arm teachers against their students and we don’t see the bigger problem?
Pardero Added Feb 23, 2018 - 3:36pm
Rusty,
Thanks for your insights. 
Some schools in Texas now have armed teachers. I don't expect any problems, and if there are, the MSM will tell us about it 24/7.
George, 
School Choice used to be a hot topic. How about alternative schools with armed teachers? Tax revenues for existing schools could be diverted, according to enrollment. Let the parents have the freedom to decide where their children go to school. 
Tubularsock Added Feb 23, 2018 - 3:45pm
Really, armed teachers? You have got to be kidding. One does not go into education to be a combat recruit. The utter danger of this idea is staggering.
 
Here’s an idea. How about we change some laws so we aren’t handing out guns like candy. Not every Tom, Dick and Harry needs to carry a gun to school or any place else for that matter.
 
The more guns the more killing!
Flying Junior Added Feb 23, 2018 - 3:46pm
I think the majority of Americans would prefer a more peaceful solution.  I'm not hearing these voices demanding security guards.  I thought that was just the president.  We don't want guns in our schools, period.  If it is warranted on a case by case basis, maybe.  The actual proposal I heard didn't involve true concealed carry.  The weapons were to be locked up until an active shooter was detected.  If it was true CCW, the little kids could figure out how to steal a teacher's gun while he or she was in the loo.
 
Oops, the English teacher didn't put his gun in the lock box and little Jimmy found it!  What could possibly go wrong?  Maybe teachers could be outfitted with Quick-Draw Sleeve Guns like Robert De Niro in Taxi Driver?
George N Romey Added Feb 23, 2018 - 3:50pm
Not to mention if bullets are flying from an assault weapon how is the teacher going to get to the lock box, take out a key to unlock and arm the gun before shot in the head him or herself!
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 23, 2018 - 4:13pm
I know of a women that has a conceal carry license in Illinois.  Is a union member that is active and was on the negotiating team for contract settlement.  An Obama supporter, Hillary Clinton supporter and likely democratic life time supporter.
 
She wants to bring her gun to protect the students.    Now she has been tagged by the media as having the totally opposite view point.  
Jeff Michka Added Feb 23, 2018 - 4:30pm
Maybe teachers could be outfitted with Quick-Draw Sleeve Guns like Robert De Niro in Taxi Driver-Or better yet, get Robert De Niro to wear it again in an ongoing sequel called Taxi to School Driver....Well, think all this talk about armed folks in schools as necessity may be over.  Seems the rent-a-cop at the high school couldn't be bothered to do his job, so how many of the "newly armed" will answer the call, or maybe not...Since this happened in Fl, maybe the rent-a-cop has been exposed to Geo Romey, and fearing the Deep State was behind the attack, chose, like ol Geo, to do nothing because "nothing can be done."
TexasLynn Added Feb 23, 2018 - 4:47pm
Really good post.  It comes down to how do we make really soft targets hard targets.  We did it with airports, but won't for our schools/children because of politics.
 
The left will not even consider the idea, because school safety is their secondary concern behind gun control (as far as they can take it).  As long as they think they can use one (soft target schools) to get the other (gun control) they will have no interest in solving the real problem.
 
Arming teachers/staff is the best solution.  Not all teachers.  Just the ones with the desire, ability and aptitude to take on the additional responsibility.  You also don't advertise who has done so.
 
The concept works the same way as it does in general American society.  When a criminal selects a target (a house, a business, an individual), they don't know who is armed and who is not.  They have to calculate the risk and do exactly that.  You don't see any leftist wearing buttons reading "I am gun free" or placing such a sign in the front yard.
 
If you’re going to rob somebody... who would you choose.
 
Sign in front of Home: "%&(# the dog!  Beware of owner!  I will blow your head off! (Smiley Face)"
 
Sign in front of Home: "This is a gun free home, so please respect that! (Smiley Face)"
Tubularsock Added Feb 23, 2018 - 4:48pm
Now let's step back a bit here Jeff.
If you were a fireman with a squirt gun, would you rush into a burning building? Remember that security guy had only a hand gun. Tubularsock thought he just showed good judgment!
TexasLynn Added Feb 23, 2018 - 4:51pm
>> Seems the rent-a-cop at the high school couldn't be bothered to do his job, so how many of the "newly armed" will answer the call, or maybe not...
 
All it takes is one.  If you find yourself in an active shooter situation, what do you want to be holding?  Your $^&* or a gun... any gun?
Pardero Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:00pm
Lynn,
Those signs are funny.
The MSM has some responsibility here. They give these creeps the notoriety that they crave and bury the stories that depict an armed law-abiding citizen preventing a crime, including potential mass murder.
Jeff Michka Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:11pm
Really good post.  It comes down to how do we make really soft targets hard targets.  We did it with airports, but won't for our schools/children because of politics.-Yeah, let's have TSA checkpoints at ever entrance to a school.  "Show up two hours before class time since security is very busy"  How many school shooters took their weapons to classes before opening up? tHESE KIDS CAN'T READ and need schooling, not scans, pat downs and cavity searches.  And: If you find yourself in an active shooter situation, what do you want to be holding?-Seems highly unlikely to spend any time worrying what "I'd do" since I won't be in that situation.  Besides, Lynn is a 36 hour ride in his pickup from me, so expect him to come and rescue me with a farm implement. LOL Seems any terror the gunmen want to depart worked on you, Pard...The MSM has some responsibility here.-You didn't blame Hillary and Bill Clinton, Pard.  Oh, and also didn't blame Barack Obama or FDR.  Horrors!!!
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:12pm
Lynn it is obvious that many teenagers and teachers at the school were willing to step up.  Two teachers and three ROTC students knowingly put themselves in harms way and were all killed.  Would have exchanged bullets with Cruz.    The numbers are in the favor of the school if only 10% of the adults in the school are armed.  Those ROTC student would have picked up the gun of a downed teach that I am sure of.  ROTC does teach fire arms.
Jeff Michka Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:13pm
The left will not even consider the idea, because school safety is their secondary concern behind gun Crypto-fascist nonsense, Lynn boy. Oh, hell...just fascist nonsense.
Dino Manalis Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:14pm
Teachers should be teaching, some may wish to be personally armed, but a school's security should start at the school's entrance, not the classroom, with metal detectors.  Every school is different, administrators have to decide on what security is needed and may include police; security guards; or veterans.
TexasLynn Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:25pm
"Very well! Be off with you, you Crypto-fascist, Lynn boy!" said the Michka (which is Ukrainian for troll).  He then threw some poo at the poor Billy Goat Gruff to really make his point.
Dave Volek Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:29pm
Another knee-jerk reaction.
 
With all due respect to those families who have lost loved ones in the shootings, the chances of anyone being killed in a school shooting is still very small----even in the United States.  Is this worth all the extra hassle?
 
Rusty alluded to one hassle. Using a firearm requires training and practice. How could we ensure that the guns in schools are up to certain standards of proficiency? What about checking out the mental stability of those with concealed weapons in schools?
 
I can barely stand carrying a wallet and a cell phone. I would not want the hassle of carrying a concealed gun. How do we ensure that those people licensed to carry guns in schools will keep those guns in a place where they won't do any harm? 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Leroy Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:45pm
The security guard in the latest shooting has been branded a coward.  I will venture that he was following protocol.  No matter what our profession might be--mechanic, teacher, fireman, policeman, engineer, secretary, we deserved to go home to our family at the end of the day.  Asking people without the proper personal protection equipment to be prepared to sacrifice their lives is not a solution.  It is the job of the swat team.  If the guard had gone in and shot or attempted to shoot the killer, he would have been a hero for going above and beyond his duty.  That is not something we should require people to do.
 
If we are going to have armed guards, it should be an ostentatious show of force, not concealed.   If a cop's objective is to catch speeders, an unmarked car is best.  If a cop's objective is safety, a marked car is better.  People will slow down to the proper speed when they see a marked cop car.  So, if we want o surprise a shooter once he begins, yeah, sure, concealed is better.  If you want to prevent it, show it.
 
We should think long and hard before arming anyone who can't be clearly identified.  Just imagine; if you are a cop and you are called into an active shooter situation, you see someone with a gun, a teacher, for example.  What would you do?  If any doubt, you would shoot first and ask questions later.  A cop can't tell who the real active shooter is if the person isn't uniformed.
George N Romey Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:46pm
The first time a white teacher or administrator shoots a black kid it will be a media feeding frenzy. 
Pardero Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:50pm
Dave, 
Those are things that really need to be considered. I appreciate your rational and calm thinking.
Many of us get panicked and scramble to deflect an attack on our rights.
I live in a state that needs no permit to carry concealed. I have fine compact weapons and excellent holsters but it is still impractical except during the winter months. Much of the value of a weapon is lost if a criminal is aware of it. Open carry is fine for an outing but not for everyday activities, yet.
Usually, I keep a pistol in my vehicle, which can also be problematic.
Many fine products are avaiable, including vests, underwear, and handbags for women. The fake cell phone holsters are ok for belly guns and I may go that way. 
Fanny packs are so out of style that everyone knows you are carrying.
I carried a large Beretta 9mm in a backpack for years while I hauled US Mail but our main customer forbids guns and knives at their operations. Some keep firearms in their trucks, anyway. I am torn by my desire to follow the rules or having my Constitutional rights forbidden.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:51pm
George R., so why did you focus on a teacher shooting a student that is black.   You didn't say the shooter was black youth, you just said BLACK.   
 
My biggest worry is a student grabbing for a teachers concealed weapon.  You see the students will know who is packing.  The only students that will be grabbing for the gun will be capable of killing the teacher and other students.
Leroy Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:52pm
"The first time a white teacher or administrator shoots a black kid it will be a media feeding frenzy. "
 
Good point, George.  Someone else made the point today that if we have more armed guards and we toughen the laws, we will have more black kids being arrested.  How do we deal with that?  The latest killer was deemed to be Hispanic by virtue of his last name.  My understanding is that the school system was trying to deal with problems internally to lower the arrest of blacks and Hispanics.  In other words, it is a PC problem.   I know it sounds racist, but it is not.  We can't deny reality.
George N Romey Added Feb 23, 2018 - 5:56pm
Yes a black kid with a gun, a knife or claiming he has a gun and is going to use it. Is the teacher suppose to allow him to fire first? I can see it now, the teacher should have reasoned with him first.
TexasLynn Added Feb 23, 2018 - 6:09pm
Tublarsock >> Remember that security guy had only a hand gun. Tubularsock thought he just showed good judgment!
 
The guy was a disgrace to his profession, and himself.  He had a lethal weapon.  He was the only one in the vicinity at the time who had the tools that would do the job.  He also had a duty to protect those students by nature of his employment... and chose to cower instead.  Who can say how they would react in such a situation, but the criticism is warranted.
 
Leroy has a point in that the best scenario is to overwhelmingly provide the equipment needed to do the job.  Still, I think he was a disgrace.  I'm not a policeman and I'm not a firefighter for a reason (besides being old and out of shape).  Those who take those jobs should know there are things we expect of them in the worst of situations.  If they don't have the tools then demand them.  If they don't get them or aren't sure they can live up to the responsibility, then need to choose other professions.
 
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Pardero >> Those signs are funny.
 
Thank you.
 
More than once I've advocated that non-gun owners should be required to post a sign at their residence stating, "This is a gun free home."  Why should they receive the benefit at the expense of the rest of us?  Of course, there is always the option of purchasing a gun and taking down the sign.
 
Pardero >> The MSM has some responsibility here. They give these creeps the notoriety that they crave and bury the stories that depict an armed law-abiding citizen preventing a crime, including potential mass murder.
 
Absolutely.  I've been impressed with many hosts on Fox who have refused to show a picture of or mention the name of the most recent dirt-bag.  Someone else would have to tell me if the MSM has done anything like that.  I doubt it.
 
Also, there was the despicable scripted "town hall" put on by CNN.  This is what passes for professional journalism these days.
 
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Thomas >> Lynn it is obvious that many teenagers and teachers at the school were willing to step up.  Two teachers and three ROTC students knowingly put themselves in harm’s way and were all killed.
 
Exactly!  Just imagine if such selfless people had been given a chance as described in this post.  Political correctness kills.  In this case (and more to come) literally.
 
Thomas >> ROTC does teach fire arms.
 
And ROTC builds character... both sorely needed when the chips are down.  And it is obvious the ROTC program at this school was exceptional in that regard.
 
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George >> Teachers and school administrators have little to no desire to play Keystone Cop and I don’t blame.
 
And you know this how?  I'd bet in almost every school, you'd get more than enough volunteers... especially if you offered a minimal monetary incentive.
 
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FJ >> We don't want guns in our schools, period.
 
Close... but a real discussion could push that either way; if we decide to actually have one.
 
The poll finds that 50 percent of Americans oppose allowing more teachers and school officials to carry guns, but 44 percent of Americans support it. -- CBS News Poll (so you know it's skewed to the left)
 
FJ >> The actual proposal I heard didn't involve true concealed carry.... the little kids could figure out how to steal a teacher's gun
 
Great point.  So, don't do that.  Go with concealed carry.
 
John Minehan Added Feb 23, 2018 - 6:34pm
At Colombine 19 years ago and in Parkland, Florida last week, you had armed guards who refused decisive engagement with school shooters.  (In fairness, there have been armed guards who stopped school shootings.)
 
At Sandy Hook, CT, there were unarmed school teachers who died trying to obstruct a school shooter.
 
It appears likely that teachers might have more of an emotional investment and might be more willing to engage an active shooter.
 
That might be worth doing more detailed research on.  
George N Romey Added Feb 23, 2018 - 6:34pm
Every time this has been brought up there been a storm of teachers screaming they don’t want to be armed. Who can blame them?
 
The bigger question is why have we gotten to the point kids have become stone killers? There’s something very wrong with society and we seem to not to want to face what we’ve become,
opher goodwin Added Feb 23, 2018 - 7:13pm
Heaven help us - the answer to too many guns is more guns. The logic is simply nuts.
Armed teachers - whatever next? Armed surgeons? Armed nurses? Armed kindergarten staff? Armed chefs?
Where will this madness end?
Rusty Smith Added Feb 23, 2018 - 7:28pm
George N Romey where you live it may be true that most teachers and administrators would not want to arm themselves, but in many parts of the country where lots of the public already carries concealed, it's not such a shocker to them.  There are some schools where it's already done by staff who think its a good idea.
 
Even if they don't care about the students, teachers and administrators have been killed in past school shootings, and it sounds like some were hiding and discovered. In cases like that there is a good chance they would have been better off if they could have shot back instead of just begging.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 23, 2018 - 7:33pm
Tubularsock having a gun doesn't instantly make any teacher or administrator a first responded or obligate them to pretend they are, but it does give them a deadly option they can use if things get that desperate.  If I had my way only people who have strong experince would be put in that position, and no one has to pull their concealed gun out unless they thing it's warranted and safe for them to do so.  
 
When the bad guy is trying to smash and shoot his way thought the door I'd feel much safer if I was on the other side and had a gun, than if all I had was prayers.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 23, 2018 - 7:36pm
Flying Junior I guess you only read the title of the forum, and by some of the other comments, I doubt you are alone.  I believe letting concealed carry folks with strong experince carry while they are in school will help.  No need for lock boxes.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 23, 2018 - 7:39pm
Thomas Sutrina the funny thing about the tens of thousands of people who regularly concealed carry is that no one knows they have a gun and therefore aren't aware how common it is in many communities.  Instead they focus mostly on communities where concealed carry is not legal and hoodlums and gun violence abound.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 23, 2018 - 7:44pm
Lynn Johnson you sound like someone who has spent enough time around guns to realize they aren't horrible when they aren't in criminal hands.  
 
Most of the people who are rabid anti gun have never been around them and only know what they hear on the news, and we all know that's an unbiased view... yea right.
 
They hear the bad news and they are scared, is that any surprise.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 23, 2018 - 7:47pm
Jeff Michka more than a few active shooters have said they didn't go one place and went another because they thought the first was too risky.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 23, 2018 - 7:52pm
Leroy I try not to jump on people who don't react well in real crisis situations, I've seen too many very good people freeze up.  I am also not in favor of pressing someone who has a gun, even a security guard to try and use it if they don't think they can, even at the last second.   
 
I'd say this guard should never be an armed guard again, there are worse things he could have done including shooting the wrong person if he tried to be Rambo and was all shaky.  I've seen grown men fall apart the first time they shot a large mammal and that wasn't a person, much less a kid.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 23, 2018 - 7:57pm
I'm not suggesting we hand out guns, or urge people with no experince to carry, I'm suggesting we allow people who already carry responsibly to do so in their place of employment, with proper training, if they want to.
 
Doing so in a school is no more unsafe than it is for them when they go into banks and stores while they are not at work.
 
I'd even suggest they be required to keep their gun a secret from the students, just like is prudent when they concealed carry when they are not at school.  I've know a few teachers in bad neighborhoods who carry despite the rules, because they work in bad neighborhoods, and that's only a little different.
Leroy Added Feb 23, 2018 - 8:28pm
We don't need a bunch of Barney Fifes running around in the schools.  If we are asking people to sacrifice their lives, they need continual training and assessment.  They need the equipment to protect themselves.  I don't see it working.
 
I heard today that some schools allow fathers to volunteer to patrol the schools.  Of course, they are unarmed.  They are more likely to sacrifice their lives.  They have a vested interest.  I wouldn't have an issue with them being openly armed.  But, they need to be uniformed and trained and regularly assessed.
 
 
Pardero Added Feb 23, 2018 - 9:35pm
Leroy,
That seems to be a prudent and reasonable idea.
TexasLynn Added Feb 23, 2018 - 10:10pm
George >> The bigger question is why have we gotten to the point kids have become stone killers? There’s something very wrong with society and we seem to not to want to face what we’ve become.
 
Ahhh... agreement.  That is the real problem that needs addressed.  Now to figure out (and debate) why and what to do about that... and we're off into the weeds again.
 
BUT... agreement on the problem... that's something isn't it?
 
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Opher >> Where will this madness end?
 
Hopefully with safe kids and intact rights.  This is one route to that goal.
 
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Various >> teachers don't want it... teachers first responders... just arm the teachers (no training)
 
This is such a polarizing issue, those against it read their wildest fears into what you propose.  They then set up those fears as strawmen to be knocked down... never really reading or considering the original suggestion.
 
Where the teacher, administrators, and community don't want it... don't do it.  Put up a "gun free zone" sign and bask in your moral and social superiority.  Where they do, implement it.
 
The post makes it clear that those who participate will go through the concealed carry process, which requires background checks and continued training.
 
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Rusty >> Most of the people who are rabid anti gun have never been around them...
 
Exactly, all they know is what they see on the news, movies, or from political organizations.  Acting out of ignorance and hysteria rarely leads to anything good.
 
Rusty >>  I try not to jump on people who don't react well in real crisis situations
 
Yeah... I'm probably being a little too rough on the guy... but you are right that he should never work in such a position again.
Michael B. Added Feb 23, 2018 - 10:53pm
Pretty soon, we're going to be no different than places like Somalia, and in many ways, we already are.
Leroy Added Feb 23, 2018 - 11:36pm
I just heard there were four deputies that did nothing.  One would think that at least one of them would have said, "Oh, hell no, not on my watch!" and charged it.
 
As a side issue, many victims bleed to death when the schools go into lockdown.  I don't know if it happened in this case.  Maybe there is someone that could be done better here.  Obviously, we don't want to send paramedics into an area that is not safe.  It's another angle to consider in preventing deaths.
Bill H. Added Feb 23, 2018 - 11:59pm
I'll state once again that I am a gun owner, and a pretty damn good target shooter.
This "arming teachers" idea is totally ridiculous. In my opinion, it is comparable to putting a band aid on a wound that will not heal without major care. It is simply the NRA and Trump's quick concoction to avoid or delay the inevitable.
We are in a time where we have several issues that need to be tackled and not swept under the carpet. First, just about anyone these days has access to weapons that are designed for taking down lots of people in the shortest time possible and serve no other purpose (as in target shooting or hunting), then we have people who have no business owning a weapon simply able to walk into a gun show (or even a gun store) and walk out with said weapons.
It is time to not only enforce the laws that we have on the books, but strengthen background checks and apply them to gun shows and private sales. We need to also add that people who are presently taking (or have taken within the last 5 years) any SSRI class of drugs or who have a history of spousal abuse. I will go as far as to say that gun owners should be licensed and be required to take a firearms safety course.
There are way too many idiots with guns (as I have witnessed many times at various target shooting locations).
Flying Junior Added Feb 24, 2018 - 2:09am
Rusty,
 
I read it.  I'm too tired to explain myself right now.  My dog died today.
 
Lynn,
 
I was talking about how dangerous it would be to have teachers concealing weapon(s) on their person.  Nothing is funnier to a little kid than making a fool of the teacher.  If the teachers had guns in little holsters, the kids would be smart enough to figure out a way to get the guns.  If we really want to arm teachers, the gun would have to be mounted in a fast-access rack like a fire extinguisher right by the chalkboard with a four-digit code unknown by anyone else.
 
Jeff M.
 
I consider you a friend.  You should leave behind personal vendettas against personalities such as Mr. Romey and Mr. Smith.  Stick to the issues at hand.  Kick people's ass by defeating them in the war of ideas.  It is a fucking war.  This is a U.S. government concept from WWII.  Words are weapons in the war of ideas.
 
Victory and peace.  That's the American way.  We have to all come together and fight against the forces of fascism.
John Minehan Added Feb 24, 2018 - 6:53am
"Pretty soon, we're going to be no different than places like Somalia, and in many ways, we already are."
 
It's not quite THAT bad.  Somalia (and Yemen) are functionally the Wal-mart of military grade small arms. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 24, 2018 - 8:17am
Dave V., With all due respect to those families who have lost loved ones in the shootings, the chances of anyone being killed in a school shooting is still very small----even in the United States.  Is this worth all the extra hassle?   As they say in is a rescission when someone else gets laid off it is a depression when you get laid off.  If it is your child 0.0001% is too much.
Dave Volek Added Feb 24, 2018 - 9:18am
Thomas
Now you are appealing to the same emotions you claim the lefties are doing.
 
I think it's safe to assume that out of 1000 schools in the USA, only one will have school shooting in the next decade. It seems silly to arm 999 schools when there is some doubt that the one school can effectively challenge a shooter if the teachers carry weapons.
 
 
Leroy Added Feb 24, 2018 - 10:33am
Dave, would you take a flight on the airlines if they had a 99.9% chance of getting you to your destination safely?  I wouldn't.  It is pretty poor odds.  Why would we expose our children to a risk we would not take?
George N Romey Added Feb 24, 2018 - 10:50am
We live with risk everyday of our lives. When it’s an event so horrific as this we lose sight of the fact that 99.99% of the time children go to school with no incident.
 
Say next week 40 students were killed in a school bus accident. There would be all kinds of attention put on bus safety even though through the decades transport by school bus has proven to be one of the safest forms of transportation. Most countries don’t even provide for specialized transport of students. You won’t see a yellow bus in Australia.
 
Still in the end 17 young people were murdered and 17 families are suffering beyond words.
Bill H. Added Feb 24, 2018 - 11:24am
 
F.J.
Sorry to hear about your Dog. One of my two dogs from the same litter at the age of 14 is not doing well with a heart condition. I don't expect him to be around too long. It's very sad.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 24, 2018 - 12:11pm
Leroy I agree we don't want good intention-ed people with no clue about how to use a gun safely empowered to "patrol" our campuses but that is hardly what I'm talking about. 
 
Regarding uniforms, they might as well have bulls-eyes on them, because that is the first target an active shooter will try to take out, that is what happens with armed security guards.  Active shooters do seem to discriminate, and often ignore people they think are harmless and now who they want to target, so a person with a concealed weapon stands a much better chance of not getting shot as they try to get close enough to take the shooter out safely.  If they don't have a safe shot they have a much greater chance of not being shot themselves, just because they are wearing a uniform that identifies them to the shooter as potentially dangerous.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 24, 2018 - 12:20pm
Lynn Johnson we're all excited and have our panties in a bunch because a tiny number of kids shot up their schools, so we're all clutching out pearls as though the end is near.  That's horribly unrealistic, there are dozens of much deadlier threats to our children that we practically ignore.
 
Strangely private pools kill almost 10 times more children than guns, and they generally only exist in warmer parts of the country.  If we got rid of 20% of the private pools, perhaps the ones people inherited with their new home but don't really want, we'd save more children's lives than if we somehow had a magic button and could get rid of all the guns.  Of course that presumes those that die from suicide wouldn't find another way, and the same goes for murders.
 
In some neighborhoods, like a few in Detroit, there are almost a murder a day, not because guns run amok, but because the people in those neighborhoods embrace violent lifestyles.  If we get rid of all the guns they will just murder each other other ways, like was done before guns were invented.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Rusty Smith Added Feb 24, 2018 - 12:39pm
Leroy and Dave there are about 750,000 children under 18 yrs old in the US, and 138 have been killed in school shootings since Sandy Hook in 2012.  That's less than 30 a year on average.  That's not a 1 in 99.9% chance, it's 1,000 times less than that.
 
If you're not OK with those odds I think you better not let your kid leave the house or certainly not drive them to school because that's far far more dangerous.
 
This also illustrates a point I'd like to make, the news media has made many gun related problems appear to be common, and a massive threat to us, when in fact they are often minor threats compared to other things the media ignores.
 
About 450 people a year are struck by lightening, you need to understand what the statistics mean and avoid being led to hysteria by hype that's designed to increase news media viewers more than it's designed to convey usefully and realistic information to the public.
Dave Volek Added Feb 24, 2018 - 2:13pm
Rusty, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. The odds of being involved in a school shooting are very, very, very, very small.
 
Arming the teachers is a knee-jerk solution that is likely to cause more problems than what it just might solve.
 
BTW, I think there are lot more than 750,000 school age children in the USA.
 
 
Flying Junior Added Feb 24, 2018 - 2:37pm
Thanks Bill.  He was the pick of the litter.  Beautiful dark red Golden Retriever.  We adopted his little sparring partner as well who was more of an agility build.  That was twelve years ago.  Now Little Chauncey doesn't have a big brother anymore.
George N Romey Added Feb 24, 2018 - 3:14pm
Dave obviously for the families of the those 17 kids and the students at that school the odds are meaningless.  With 24/7 news the problem gets magnified to the 1000th degree.  50 years ago it would have been a 10 minute story for the first few nights on network news, then 5 minutes or less for a few days and after that forgotten.
 
Of course this leads into a feeding frenzy in which parents become paralyzed by fear that their children's school is next even though there's less than a .001% percentage chance it will be.  Human beings tend to be much more emotional during times of stress than rational and logical.
Bill H. Added Feb 24, 2018 - 3:35pm
 
Mass shootings are slowing becoming the "norm". Four of the five deadliest shootings in American history happened in the past five years, and 2017 already far exceeds any previous year for the number of casualties.
It seems that we just sweep them under the carpet after a week of news stories, and then along comes the next one. Recently it seems to be several times a week or more (I am referring to shootings involving 4 or more casualties).
I'm glad to see even some staunch NRA puppets considering some logical and sensible action recently.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 24, 2018 - 5:00pm
Dave V. I will try again,  With all due respect to those families who have lost loved ones in the shootings, the chances of anyone being killed in a school shooting is still very small----even in the United States.  Is this worth all the extra hassle? Ask the students and parents where school shooting have occurred?  We both know the answer.  And that will be the answer for the grand parents, friends, coworkers, relatives, church family, etc.  And you can add all other terrorist attacks also to this list. 
 
Mass murder is not going to become normalized except by the media and government.
Bill H. Added Feb 24, 2018 - 5:12pm
Thomas - It will become normalized if we continue to ignore the causes and not take any action on it. I realize that there may be money, and possibly a few tidbits of "our rights" to be lost, but there will be more gained.
We cant continue to treat this issue as we do prescription drug addiction,  pollution, loss of habitat, and climate change. Are we going to wait until it becomes a daily event?
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 24, 2018 - 6:36pm
I would like to start with this: 1997 Charlton Heston explaining why the Second Amendment “must be considered more essential than the First Amendment.” The Second Amendment, the right to bear arms against those who would take away your life and liberty, is the first freedom that defends the rest of your liberty.
 
Bill, not any person that has a personal connection to anyone that is murdered will ever think it is normal.  Chicago murders have not been addressed but no one think it is normal.   Your fooling yourself.  But then we disagree and that is where I will leave it.
Dave Volek Added Feb 24, 2018 - 6:46pm
Thomas
I really have no idea what you are talking about. It seems to me that you think the relatives of those killed would be in favor of armed guards in schools.
 
 
Rusty Smith Added Feb 24, 2018 - 7:04pm
Bill H. one of the largest factors in the increase in school shootings is the way our news media hypes them up and inspires copy cats.  
 
Many came right out and said they knew about other school shootings and wanted to do the same thing, some even wanted to become the record-holders.  
 
Do you have any suggestions.
Leroy Added Feb 24, 2018 - 7:44pm
"Leroy and Dave there are about 750,000 children under 18 yrs old in the US, and 138 have been killed in school shootings since Sandy Hook in 2012.  That's less than 30 a year on average.  That's not a 1 in 99.9% chance, it's 1,000 times less than that."
 
Which state are you talking about?  Can't be the entire US, but I get your point.
 
I look at it like the lottery, except that rather than winning, you lose.  At some point, it makes sense to play the Powerball lottery.  To illustrate the point, if you had a one in ten chance of winning the lottery and it costs $1 to play and the payoff was $1 million, would you play?  The odds are against you.  Well, of course, you would play.   I haven't calculated what the pot would have to be where it makes sense to play the Powerball lottery, but I am sure it's in the billions.  When it comes to losing my kids, it's worth everything I have, even my life to avoid.  Maybe the odds are one in a million.  That's too high for me.  It is the sole purpose of government to protect its citizens.  Sure, there are more dangerous situations, but without taking risks, our children can't develop as they should.  Maybe that is the problem with kids today.  I'm struggling with it now with my kid.  He's been taught not to take risks.  It was 80 something degrees today.  His mother had him dressed in two layers of clothes.  She's afraid he will catch a cold.  It was in the 60s a few days back and she has him dressed in four layers.  Being shot in school is not an acceptable risk no more than freezing to death in 80-degree weather.  Perhaps being killed on the merry-go-round is.  I forgot, we no longer have merry-go-rounds as we had in our day.  Too many risks.  Maybe a swimming pool would be a better example.   
George N Romey Added Feb 24, 2018 - 8:11pm
A 24/7 media is going to sensationalize this thing to death. Parents begin to obsess over it and sick kids fantasize about it. Only adult intervention will help. The media won’t change.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 24, 2018 - 8:45pm
Dave V. you just said I believe It seems to me that you think the relatives of those killed would be in favor of armed guards in schools.  But I was answering: Is this worth all the extra hassle?  I said yes then think it is worth the extra hassle.  Now they may have different opinions of what the best solution is, but doing nothing is not one of them.
Bill H. Added Feb 24, 2018 - 9:32pm
Rusty - If you would have read one of my earlier postings, you would have seen my suggestions.
Dave Volek Added Feb 25, 2018 - 9:47am
Thomas
OK, I see what you were getting at. Here is a list of the extra hassle of putting in armed people in each school:
 
1) Extra pay. If we hire security guards, this is obvious. If we expect a few teachers to carry firearms, they should be paid a little more. 
 
2) Police checks. It should be obvious that we are not going arm your average security guard or teacher without some background checks. Even though we are already doing background checks, there will be a few more.
 
3) Training. SWAT teams get lots of training for their craft. And they are often called to use it. So they get lots of practice. It is one thing for a person to show proficiency in a firing range, but it is another thing to show proficiency in handling a school shooting. People who take on school shooters with a pistol should have a lot of training--and frequent practice for this particular use of a firearm. There will be more costs.
 
4) Protocols. Do the people carry the firearm all day? If not, what is the procedure for storing it? What happens if the kids determine who is carry the firearm? What happens if the carrier is absent from work? How carriers are required?
 
5) Extra administration. The principal and school board should be obligated to know who is carrying firearms in the school.
 
 
Adding firearms to a school is going to be a big cost. Multiply that by the number of schools and that is how much money is taken out of the economy and really doesn't accomplish much.
 
And then we should worry that maybe 1 out of a 1000 people we assign as firearm carriers in schools just might do something silly with their firearm. This will cause more problems than the very few school shootings the USA currently faces. 
 
Having said all that, I would not be against a social experiment of putting such people in place into a few schools. Then we will get the true costs and determine if there are any other issues with firearm carriers in schools.
 
But to put such carriers in all schools is a knee-jerk reaction that is driven by emotion and a desire for a simplistic solution.
 
 
 
Rusty Smith Added Feb 25, 2018 - 11:31am
Leroy and Dave you're right I did the math wrong, 25% of the population is under 18 that's about 80 million.  less than 100 die in school shootings a year, so your kids chances are something like less than 1 in a million.  You make that sound like Russian Roulette odds.
 
The CDC doesn't list things in chances that approach a million because far more than that die annually from homicide, even just among teenagers.  They used deaths per 100,000, and if you're a white male teenager about 3 die per 100 k.  That goes up to 39 if you're a black male teenager.  The number we're talking about who die in school shootings in the entire US, where less than 100 of all races.   
 
I think you need to stay in your house if odds in the millions scare you that much, and am pretty sure you have hobbies that are more dangerous.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 25, 2018 - 11:33am
Dave Volek adding firearms to schools doesn't cost money if people like teachers and administrators who already concealed carry away from work, just continue to do so when they are working in the schools.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 25, 2018 - 1:32pm
Parkland shows why the NRA exist and both it and gun sales grew during Obama's administration.   Parkland showed that big government liberals both Democrats and Republicans do not care if we the citizens live or die.   They are not taking the guards away for themselves or the rich and famous.  They have taken away in effect guns away from citizens in Chicago and the result is more deaths.
 
Big government failed because it considered taking guns away from citizens more important to big government's existence and growth then to do their job as presented in the Declaration of Independents which implies that they work for the good and approval of the governed, the citizens.
 
Parkland sharif department, FBI, State Police, the government mental health department, child services, you name any big government agency all failed to prevent the purchase of a gun and let this teenage go untreated.   
 
During the USSR century of control guns were taken away from the citizens, but they also created a class system.  The result alway of a class system of law is the disregard of the law by all classes.  That has resulted in Communism being replaced by an Oligarchy when the state run economy collapsed.  The Oligarchy retained classes with different laws.  The murder rate in Russia is about 4 times higher then America as reported by Harvard, a liberal college so they have an ideology that would hid instead of present this fact.  Knifes work just as good as guns, just ask Rwanda where the murder rate not by guns exceeded that of the extermination rate of Hitler of Jews.   
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 25, 2018 - 1:39pm
Dave V. citizens is suspect of Parkland Florida will show their displeasure with the sheriff next election if he last that long.  To have a department trained to not enter a school to confront the shooter.
 
Collebined showed this approach doesn't work.   The residents of Parkland and the nation consider those trying to protect students as heros.  I think a conceal carry citizens confronting the shooter would also be consider a hero.  Everyone I know of wants a defender of their right to LIVE.  When the choice comes down to life or money, life wins out.  At least that is what the health system of America as concluded decades ago.   That is one reason when 'death panels' were attached to Obama Care.  The Democrats fought hard to suppress that fact.
George N Romey Added Feb 25, 2018 - 1:42pm
Yet Thomas you constantly talk about defunding the social services structure. I live in South Florida, about 25 miles from this school. I know from personal experience these agencies have too much in their plate. Their biggest headache? The increasingly number of former middle class people coming to them for assistance because people like you do not believe in a living wage.
 
Yet you expect a grossly under funded section to monitor every troubled kid. Have you been to a social services office? Come down and check out the ones in Broward and Miami Dade counties.
 
Are you willing to commit billions more for social services and law enforcement? Maybe we could take some away from the $1.2 trillion we hand over to the military and surveillance state each year.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 25, 2018 - 1:53pm
Dave V.,  reality, how many citizens are happy with the choices of what shall be paid for by the National health system?  It is more cost effective to let people die?  Has the government really convinced the citizens, really?   
 
This is the same argument your making about cost efficiency of protecting schools.  Are the citizens really happy with the present choice of not protection and a sign on the doors of schools, 'gun free zone' (you will meet no effective resistance, this is like shooting fish in a barrel.)
Ben McCargo Added Feb 25, 2018 - 2:44pm
Rusty, the only way we should arm teachers is that if, by remarkable chance, there is a teacher who is ex-military, ex-law enforcement, ex-para-military or some other occupation that put them in the thick of things, in actual fire fights where there is a clear and concise record of them responding responsibly and effectively.  I'd want confirmed kills of the enemy and not a whole lot of collateral damage in their records, verifiable records with a long vetting process.  And even then, I'd be skeptical.  Why?  There's too much to risk and way to much to train and plan for.  For a start, how do you explain to a kindergartner or first grader what that bulge is in your pants or on your skirt?  the buzz will get around school that some teachers are armed and what then?  the older ones are gonna want to see it, talk about it.  I think armed resource officers, off-duty police, sheriffs,etc. and enough on campuses, with tactics practiced and under their belts to respond to a threat are our best and easiest to implement answer for now.  We do that across the board in all public schools and that's a start. 
Dave Volek Added Feb 25, 2018 - 3:22pm
Thomas
Judging from the American interviewees the CBC seems to find,  I would say a lot of Americans do not want guns in the school PERIOD.
 
But you might have some polling numbers handy.
 
-----
About ten years ago, a friend of mine died in an auto collision on a rural road. Someone wasn't looking and ran a stop sign. 
 
We could argue that had that intersection been a cloverleaf exchange, my friend would not have died--and he would have put another 25 years into paying taxes.
 
But these cloverleafs cost about $10m each. A stop sign costs a $300. 
 
In many facets of societal decisions, we do put a $ value on human life--either directly or indirectly. In my town, for example, we could improve ambulance response time by putting ambulances stations in every neighborhood rather than just at the local hospital. But that would be very expensive to set and operate those stations. A better balance would be to keep the ambulances at the hospital and live with the tradeoff that it will take four more minutes for an ambulance to reach your door--as compared to the ideal situation of a neighborhood ambulance. 
 
Let's just say it costs $50,000 a year to arm a school. Multiply that by all the schools in the USA, and that's a lot of money that really doesn't provide anything useful to the economy. And it really won't improve safety of the 99.999% of schools where there is no school shooter.
 
And I have my doubts that someone with minimum training is going to be effective in encountering a school shooter.
 
     
 
 
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 25, 2018 - 5:42pm
Dave V., I know citizens do not want children murdered in their schools.   Obama is out and now Dems can think they can make this a wedge issue for 2018 elections so It will not die.  They really do not care what the outcome is.  
 
Florida governor is being pressured to fire the Sheriff Scott Israel.  The hired guard standing outside listening to the shooting is bad enough but three policemen also waiting outside.   The NRA has its  approach to end schools and gun free zones for employees in many states.  Local and federal government failed.  
 
Trump is willing to support guns in the hands of employees so this will be a 2018 campaign issue.  And with no parent wanting their child murdered and that being the topic of discussion I expect action or major promises will be made that will be hard to walk away from in January of 2019.
George N Romey Added Feb 25, 2018 - 6:13pm
My hunch is that the majority of parents don’t want guns in the hands of teachers. Guns in a school in the hands of anyone but a law enforcement professional is an accident waiting to happen.
Dave Volek Added Feb 25, 2018 - 8:04pm
Thomas:
 
I know citizens do not want children murdered in their schools. 
 
This is a no brainer!
 
The question is how do we achieve this goal. Many Americans are looking to Canada and other nations where we have 1/10 the per capita gun deaths as the US. 
 
Do you have any polls supporting teachers packing heat in schools?
 
 
 
 
 
Rusty Smith Added Feb 25, 2018 - 10:18pm
Ben McCargo I read a study of thousands of shootings and most criminals run away when they victims have a gun and seem to be shooting at them, strangely regardless of the size or caliber of the gun.
 
If people who carry guns outside the school, (concealed), also could carry them inside, they wouldn't have to do anything but if they simply fired a shot into the floor if the shooter was trying to break  into their room, it might scare the shooter away.
 
I were trapped in school room I'd sure wish I had a gun with me just in case the shooter got into my room.  I can't stand the thought of only being able to beg for my life and the life of defenseless students.
 
Many of my friends carry guns and strangely they are better behaved when they have a gun than when they don't because they realize how much trouble they will be in if anything goes wrong while they have the gun on them.  They even tend to be extra polite because they worry any argument could cost them the right to carry if it escalated to the point where police go involved.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 25, 2018 - 10:24pm
Dave Volek unfortunately gun control is not the answer because it's not a gun problem, it's a problem with people who want to kill and just happen to grab a gun because that's what they think of first.
 
I guarantee if guns were not available they would kill far more with things like a bucket of gasoline, and once one student proves how well that worked, and the media tells the whole world, there would be an abundance of copy cats soon thereafter.
 
17 kids were killed this time, many college classrooms contain over 100 students. A bucket of gasoline and a flare would kill far more than 17.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 26, 2018 - 12:43am
Dave V.,  Pew Research poll in 2013 found that 56% of Americans thought gun violence had risen in the last 20 years and 12% thought it had fallen.  12 % were right.  You can thank the efforts to take guns away for higher ownership.  Obama was the best gun salesman the NRA had.  "The findings of two criminologists – Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser – in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:   Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. ... Finally, and as if to prove the bumper sticker correct – that “gun don’t kill people, people do” – the study also shows that Russia’s murder rate is four times higher than the U.S. and more than 20 times higher than Norway. This, in a country that practically eradicated private gun ownership over the course of decades of totalitarian rule and police state methods of suppression. Needless to say, very few Russian murders involve guns."  
 
It is well know that criminals get illegal guns so taking away citizens gun does not will only in effect make larger gun free zones.  and more crime. 
Phil Greenough Added Feb 26, 2018 - 3:28pm
Proficient or not, inviting more guns into schools by allowing teachers to carry is a recipe for disaster.  It’s far more likely one will be used to settle a score with a fellow teacher or student than used to defend the school from some deranged gunman.  After all, we learned in Florida that an armed police officer was unable to do anything.  I also have two stories regarding a friend of mine who always carried a concealed firearm. 
 
1) While playing around with his gun in his apartment, it accidently went off.  Thankfully nobody was hurt.
 
2) While at a bar, he got into a verbal altercation with someone and pulled a gun on him. 
 
When people have guns, this type of crap happens.  I’m not saying we should take away guns, but we shouldn’t invite them into our schools, as that is a recipe for more needless deaths than we already have. 
Dave Volek Added Feb 26, 2018 - 3:40pm
Thomas
Take a look at this Wikipedia article on gun deaths by country:
 
Either Wikipedia is dead wrong or your sources were comparing the USA to El Salvador and Columbia.
 
Canada has 2 gun related deaths per 100,000 people per year. The USA has 10. If an unbiased person was to ask how to craft social policies that reduce gun deaths, should he look to Canada or the USA as an example?  
Jeff Michka Added Feb 26, 2018 - 6:52pm
more than a few active shooters have said they didn't go one place and went another because they thought the first was too risky-Gee, Rusted, for such a remarkable  "fact," you have no cites.  And no, I didn't make the statement, you made the statement as fact, and I don't need to spend my online time fact checking your stuff.  This is the kinda noise propagation that makes discussing of things like the 2nd amendment pointless,  AND ol Thomas the Sutrino will insist it's all FDR's fault.  Phil G summed it nicely: Proficient or not, inviting more guns into schools by allowing teachers to carry is a recipe for disaster.-Yeah, shooting through crowds of students running for their lives will lower the body count because a "teacher was armed."  Horsedung.AND Bill H kindly sez: I consider you a friend.  You should leave behind personal vendettas against personalities such as Mr. Romey and Mr. Smith.  Stick to the issues at hand.  Kick people's ass by defeating them in the war of ideas.  It is a fucking war.  This is a U.S. government concept from WWII.  Words are weapons in the war of ideas. -You hit it on the head, Bill H: "PERSONALITIES" made to make them big noises online.  One of the pair actually thinks telling me I don't matter will make me cry.  Thats not even "police action" stuff.  I'll consider your kind advice. Thanks for the thoughts.
Tubularsock Added Feb 26, 2018 - 7:25pm
Now if anyone really believes that arming teachers is a good idea you have forgotten the teachers you have had in your school days!
 
But with teachers armed we’ll just have to expect more collateral damage due to firing a loaded gun in the classroom. Hey, some kids just got in the way.
 
A larger concern is as you began to fire the natural response of most third graders is to exchange fire as they have been instructed to do in their gun training class third period.
 
So it is paramount that you wear your bullet-almost-proof-vest at all times during the school day and especially in the Teacher’s Lounge during break because many of your fellow instructors are “trigger-happy” as you know.
 
Tubularsock agrees with Phil Greenough on this one, “. . . inviting more guns into schools by allowing teachers to carry is a recipe for disaster.”
Ben McCargo Added Feb 26, 2018 - 9:38pm
Rusty, yeah a gun is a deterrent to bodily harm.  In the city, seniors who are CC are usually on the good side of a mugging report.  But that's not a school.  And you know what;, it may come to this down the road-way down hopefully-but for right now, we have options.
 
We're seeing that, it was a possibly  a tactics error with the deputies but I think our best plan involves armed school resource officers, legitimate police officers with a well though out mission plan; a practiced one.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Feb 26, 2018 - 10:21pm
The best way to disarm a nation is to trick the public into begging for it. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Feb 26, 2018 - 10:27pm
Texas police shot a man after he disarmed a potential church shooter who had been holding more than 100 people hostage in at a congregation in Amarillo.
 
Joshua Len Jones, 35, barged into a church service at the Faith City Mission in Amarillo, on Valentine's Day and pulled out a gun.
 
Churchgoer Tony Garces managed to disarm Jones during a scuffle, but when police arrived, they shot Mr Garces instead.
 
Cops are too big a pussies to do anything but shoot heroes. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 27, 2018 - 8:43am
Dave V. the problem is that your bias.  The Harvard study is not bias and you refuse to believe it or any other argument.  Your the drown.  Canada and America have different cultures and as shown in the study the nature of the society effects the rate of murder not the existence of guns.  The reason there are more murders in ghettos of cities is a the society rules are different then in other areas of the same city.  A map of murder in Chicago is concentrated in a few neighborhoods not by accident.
Dave Volek Added Feb 27, 2018 - 9:16am
Thomas
 
So what is this nature of our differing societies, such that Canadian-type gun laws in USA won't work?
 
And why are there more ghettos in the USA?
 
Since about 1960, civic planners in Canada saw the sociological consequences of segregating the various economic classes from each other. Suburbs were designed in such a way the rich had to rub shoulders a little bit with the poor. In this way, the poor could not aggregate in a particular area and bring their semi-dysfunctional attitudes into a high density. This has resulted in Canadian poor having fewer social problems than American poor.
 
This gun debate is probably only addressing superficial issues. But if America maintains a wild west attitude in its gun laws, many poor people will still be trapped in their poverty.
 
 
 
 
 
Rusty Smith Added Feb 27, 2018 - 9:52am
Phil Greenough you presumption that the presence of more guns even in the hands of our most responsible gun toting citizens will automatically produce more shootings is not supported by the evidence.
 
In most of the rural Midwest where carrying a gun is commonplace shootings are much less common than they are in many inner cities where they are banned.  In all those cases more guns in the hands of law abiding citizens did not result in more shootings, of any kind, not just the violent ones.
 
I think Thomas is right, you assume that is true because as he points out all the news media hype is pretty darn good at convincing people who are not paying very close attention that guns cause gun violence.
 
Reality isn't what the news media shows you and if you lived in a place where people carry guns all the time you'd probably realize that.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 27, 2018 - 10:12am
Dave Volek the numbers you cited are impressive but may not tell the whole story, social differences between countries often have a lot more to do with statistics than things like the availability of guns.
 
I will use suicides to make my point.  The US suicide rated is a fraction of what it is in Japan even though guns abound in the US, are rare in Japan and 65% of all gun deaths in the US are suicides.
 
If I jumped to the conclusion that having more guns is what stops the US suicide rate from being what it is in Japan, I couldn't be more wrong.  
 
Most of the deaths from guns are from suicide, 65%, so if we take those out of the statistics our gun deaths are cut more than in half.  There are about twice as many people killing themselves as there are homicides with guns but as I've pointed out above, Japan proves it's not the guns that are the cause, it's the culture and intent of the people who want to end their lives.
 
To make it look worse the anti gun folks even include people swat teams had to shoot, as though we'd be better of if they too hadn't been shot.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 27, 2018 - 10:32am
Jeff Michka the closest shooting to where I live was done by a man who told police he went to another location first and but changed his mind because that private school had armed guards.  He was actually wrong, they weren't armed, but he makes my point.  I've heard that said about other shooters too who were not specifically trying to kill a person or persons, but rather looking for a church or school to shoot up.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 27, 2018 - 10:37am
Thomas Sutrina Detroit is very similar, about 5 neighborhoods have homicide rates so high that it's unbelievable, and at the same time they are surrounded by areas where homicides are not a way of life.  It's the people, not the guns that do it. 
 
Gun laws are not relaxed in the areas where most the homicides occur, they and police enforcement are usually higher in the high crime areas and it does no good because it's not the guns.  It doesn't get better when we have more gun laws because guns aren't the real problem, bad people and a violent culture are the problem.
Dave Volek Added Feb 27, 2018 - 11:07am
Rusty
 
I went back to the wikipedia table. True it is that suicides dominate the death-by-firearms for both Canada and the US.
 
But for homicides, Canada is 0.38 per 100,000 and US is 3.60 per 100,000.
 
And we should note that the US is still not the group of the worst countries.
 
I'm hoping that the US develops some reasonable legislation to gun control. But it won't the "magic bullet" to solve the social conditions that poverty inculcates.
 
 
 
Tubularsock Added Feb 27, 2018 - 11:15am
Rusty, "In most of the rural Midwest where carrying a gun is commonplace shootings are much less common than they are in many inner cities where they are banned."
 
Rural vs. inner city ........ Tubularsock will bet that a lot of crime, drugs, and unemployment figures would be a bit different for sure!
 
A bit of a misleading comparison Rusty, don't you think?
Bill H. Added Feb 27, 2018 - 11:24am
 
I would be curious to see if the shooting rate in say Los Angeles would actually drop if every resident carried a gun.
Tubularsock Added Feb 27, 2018 - 11:34am
Well Bill, could go either way Tubularsock supposes. Either a lot of alive people or a lot of dead people.
 
And if it is the latter, where'd we put the cars?
TexasLynn Added Feb 27, 2018 - 12:34pm
Rusty >> a man who told police he went to another location first and but changed his mind because that private school had armed guards.
 
It stands to reason.  Nuts and terrorists don't attack police stations and gun ranges.  They attack soft targets they know will give them the least resistance... schools, night clubs, offices, concerts.  This is what they do even if they intend to eventually die for their cause.
 
Islamic terrorist, Nadal Hasan, attacked the part of Fort Hood when and where he knew no arms were allowed.  He didn't go to the gun range to really show how great Allah was.
Jeff Michka Added Feb 27, 2018 - 9:38pm
They attack soft targets they know will give them the least resistance... schools, night clubs, offices, concerts.-So the only possible solution is to turn every possible public space, school, whereever, into armed camps.  Yeah, that will do it and the crowds may buy into living behind armed guards and checkpoints.  Americans were quite willing to surrender all sorts of rights and freedoms post 9/11 without question to be "safe."  9/11=terrorist won.  So now, let's finish the job, eh?  Can't control weapons, so lets just super control people.  Wow.  AND this is from the same crowd supposedly willing to die at the barricades to "defend" the 2nd amendment. Guess it will be easier to comletely tribalize people's mentality that way.  Instead of just deporting dreamers, maybe that tribe over there will want them all killed...
Jeff Michka Added Feb 27, 2018 - 9:43pm
Churchgoer Tony Garces managed to disarm Jones during a scuffle, but when police arrived, they shot Mr Garces instead-Captn Gilbert notes  what will happen when the cops come in to "liberate" a classroom and ask about who has weapons, the teacher "I do!" *bang*=dead teacher, but that's probably okay if it's a teacher in a public school, not a private chartered "academy", right, rightists?
Rusty Smith Added Feb 28, 2018 - 10:24am
Tubularsock I don't think my statements about rural communities where guns are part of their life not being as dangerous as many inner cities when it comes to gun violence is misleading at all, it's a fact.  I wanted to show that the presence of more or less guns is not a factor that correlates well to where gun abuse is prevent.  
 
Its true that no one died from gun violence or suicide by gun before they were invented but their invention did not inspire or deter violence and suicide, just as their absence will not make violence and suicide go away.
 
Responsible people don't mug and murder each other and irresponsible and criminally inclined people do, that's even true in our prisons where guns are about as hard to get as any other place in the world, but are still very dangerous places.  State prisons, 5 homicides per 100,000.
 
On the other extreme in Beverly Hills where lots of rich people live including many who like owning expensive arsenals of guns the homicide rate for last year was ZERO per 100,000
 
Responsible people don't spend their time trying to figure out how to kill each other.
 
Rusty Smith Added Feb 28, 2018 - 10:29am
Bill H. I think if you asked everyone to carry a loaded gun there would be lots of accidents, and if everyone included criminals there would also be more gun violence.  
 
I think only people who really want to carry and do it responsibly should be allowed to do so.  I also think responsible people start off slowly with help from experienced shooters so good handling habits become reflexive.  I've taught many people how to shoot and carry, and I don't consider them safe or competent for a long time.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 28, 2018 - 10:45am
Jeff Michka one of the things anyone who carries never forgets is that if they have their gun exposed they will look like a potential active shooter to the police.  Even security guard training stresses that fact.
 
That is one reason why I think the security guard in the last shooting may not have charged in, his company may not have wanted him to.  First he might have shot an innocent bystander, and second he might have been shot by the police.
 
If I was armed and in the school I'd lock myself in a room with students and only shoot if the active shooter was trying to break into the room I was in.  I'm not a cop or Rambo, and when I carry it's a small pistol, not a rifle. 
 
If I were to be asked to go search and destroy it would be with a rifle because it's far more accurate, has more knock down, and I know there is almost no chance I'll miss my target even if the shooter is at the other end of a building.  It also affords me the opportunity to take up a good strategic position and wait for the shooter to expose themselves someplace where they are easy for me to shoot safely, with a solid background and from far enough away that it's very unlikely an inexperienced shooter would notice me before I took them out.
Jeff Michka Added Feb 28, 2018 - 2:11pm
Rusted sez: Responsible people don't spend their time trying to figure out how to kill each other. -Wow, you wrote something I actually agree with.  Still think your "in the face of an active shooter stuff is still overly romantic, ans still creates the armed camps I was talking about.  I may be wrong, but it seems those always espousing "freedom and liberty" are the first ones to insist on behaviors giving all freedom and liberty away to supposedly "stay safe."
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 28, 2018 - 2:34pm
Rusty, the Parkland School was a GUN FREE ZONE.  No one that wasn't the people killing students would have had a gun.  And the security guard was in uniform so police also in uniform would have recognized a uniform.  The shooter could have been wearing a fake uniform.  If he was shooting at students then the police would have figured that out.
Rusty Smith Added Feb 28, 2018 - 7:56pm
Thomas Sutrina for many years I had two offices and on many occasions personally responded to burglary alarms,  always beating the police response in both areas even though the most distant office was 20 minutes away.  In every case where I was there first I was the one who had to enter and secure the space to make sure I didn't loose more equipment than I could afford to lose and stay in business.  With a lot of advice from some really nice officers I got pretty good at it and I know I wouldn't have stood a chance if I didn't have a gun.  I'm proud that I've never had to fire my weapon once that whole time.
 
I also had to carry business banking to and from the bank for many years, always at the end of the day, and despite the fact that it was questionably borderline legal, always had a gun with me when I did.  I am still surprised no one ever figured out when I did that and tried to take it from me.  I talked about it with the local police and they assured me they weren't in business to go after business men like me who were just trying to protect themselves.
 
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 1, 2018 - 3:02am
North Las Vegas police officers arrested a woman who allegedly tried to storm an elementary school with an ax and threatened to “murder everyone.”

Police arrested 33-year-old Kisstal Killough after she climbed onto a chain link fence with a pickax in her hand, KSNV NBC3 reported. School officials noticed the woman on the fence with the ax and called police who responded quickly and took her into custody before she entered the school’s property.


When pickaxes are outlawed only outlaws will have pickaxes!
 
Ban assault pickaxes!
 
Was that pickax less than 18 inches and if so was the $200 dollar tax paid? 
Rusty Smith Added Mar 1, 2018 - 10:01am
Jeffry Gilbert a pickax is no small tool so I think it's fair to say she, like anyone else could have brought in anything else she wanted to since she didn't bother to enter through the front gate. 
 
This points out why the laws forbidding weapons at schools is never going to stop someone who wants to kill people inside the schools, they don't care about the rules so the rules have no effect on them.
 
A few years ago I was in an elementary school for a tour and noticed two medium sized pointed kitchen knives on the side of the sink in a first grade class.  I said I thought it was illegal for people to bring knives into the school and was told the teachers and assistants are allowed to and use those knives to cut up fruit for the kids, the kids aren't allowed to touch them. 
 
The sink had a tiny drinking fountain, and kids used it regularly and were constantly near the knives without supervision, just like many probably are at home.  In this case anyone who wanted to murder kids with a knife wouldn't have needed to bring one in the school, they were already there and easy to access.
 
This same school held a parent meeting because kids in the preschool class had been caught playing pirates, with imaginary swords.  Of course they were appropriately disciplined, fortunately before anyone was seriously wounded, but it was a close call. 
 
Thank God the staff was so attentive and willing to risk all to ensure the safety of the children.  I do wonder if some of the parents are being charged with abuse, kids don't think this stuff up by themselves, the parents probably let them go on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride at Disneyland...  how irresponsible.  What did they expect.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Mar 1, 2018 - 10:06am
This points out why the laws forbidding weapons at schools is never going to stop someone who wants to kill people inside the schools, they don't care about the rules so the rules have no effect on them.
 
 
Exactly!!!!!
 
Jeff Michka Added Mar 2, 2018 - 6:33pm
The shooter could have been wearing a fake uniform.  If he was shooting at students then the police would have figured that out.-Give everyone uniforms when they all are given guns to prevent that.  Once again, the 2nd Amendment forever defenders still haven't talked about creating dozens of little armed camps at every school, theatre, mall, store, etc.  I didn't realize "freedom and liberty" meant being always surrounded by mobs of uniforms, heavily armed just so "I can be safe."  Yeah, this will solve it, turn the whole US into a TSA check point.  Geezus, you people.
Jeff Michka Added Mar 4, 2018 - 6:56pm
with a solid background and from far enough away that it's very unlikely an inexperienced shooter would notice me before I took them out-romantically "saving the day," you'd be showered in garlands of flowers, allowed to smoke a copy of the Constitution, lit by Wayne Lapierre, and given numerous gold plated AR15s as your reward, correct?  You folks still aren't answering the question of armed camps everywhere as a "way of life."
Rusty Smith Added Mar 4, 2018 - 8:17pm
Jeff Michka please restate the question from you last post, I'm not sure exactly what it is you want an answer to.
Jeff Michka Added Mar 5, 2018 - 9:28pm
I didn't realize "freedom and liberty" meant being always surrounded by mobs of uniforms, heavily armed just so "I can be safe."  Yeah, this will solve it, turn the whole US into a TSA check point.  Geezus, you people. So, as a cure all and panacea, we should all live our lives surrounded by TSA-style checkpoints, so we'll all be safe?
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 6, 2018 - 8:18am
So Jeff M.  I go to small town American where the back window of the pickup trucks have gun racks.  An armed community but not a police state.  Colonial America in the edge of civilization guns were carried around quite often another armed community.  Comanche and other indian areas in the west guns were also carried. Again not an armed military state.   
 
Your painting an image that is of your choice, enjoy it but some of us have a different image.  You see Jeff M. conceal is the first word of conceal carry which means I have no idea that he has a gun.  And as the examples above tell I do not care so long as he or she follows the civil rules of society.   I do care when people like N. Cruz do not.   And the quicker they are stopped the better and I could care less if it is by a policeman or a conceal carry individual. 
Jeff Michka Added Mar 6, 2018 - 6:43pm
 I go to small town American where the back window of the pickup trucks have gun racks.-You still didn't really answer the question of a collection of armed event camps or schools, I  don't think TSA style checkpoints everywhere count for CONCEAL, do they?  Like I said, you are willing to give up rights and freedoms, as as long as they don't have anything to do with restricting guns, correct? 
Rusty Smith Added Mar 6, 2018 - 10:55pm
Jeff Michka I'm not sure if your question was directed to me but I would not bother to put TSA type enforcement at schools, shooting are far too rare to be worth all that time and money.  
 
There are around 250,000 schools and even if they all had armed guards and TSA folks at all their gates, someone could still throw a gun or bomb over the fence into the bushes at night and retrieve it during the day.
 
School shootings are far too rare, money is better spent helping kids avoid suicide, that would save far more lives.
Rusty Smith Added Mar 6, 2018 - 10:58pm
Thomas Sutrina very true, the vast majority of the homicides are in tiny portions of the country where VIOLENCE is a way of life.  
 
Where guns are a part of life in most rural towns were hunting is popular, gun violence rates are far lower per person.
 
Where concealed carry is permitted, gun violence is generally the lowest among the people who are registered to carry a gun. 
Jeff Michka Added Mar 7, 2018 - 3:00pm
Rusted sez:  I'm not sure if your question was directed to me but I would not bother to put TSA type enforcement at schools,-it was, you finally sort of answered.  But TSA tactics at malls, concerts and sporting events are okay?  Only lose your freedoms at public events?
Rusty Smith Added Mar 7, 2018 - 5:08pm
Jeff Michka I've never been to a sporting event so I'm probably not qualified to comment but will try.
 
I think sports stadiums are stricter than schools because they want to keep out weapons and food or drinks that would compete with those they sell.
 
If they spend a dollar per person they probably earn that back quite quickly in additional food and beverage sales.  Then comes violence.  I'm not sure they worry as much about guns as knives, but from what I see on the news mass brawls at stadiums is not unheard of and I don't blame them for not wanting people there to have weapons.
Jeff Michka Added Mar 7, 2018 - 6:58pm
So Rusted, you are willing to surrender freedoms at "gather" events...they don't involve you or I much.  But you are willing to surrender...
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 7, 2018 - 10:19pm
Rusty I never said this in this article "Thomas Sutrina very true, the vast majority of the homicides are in tiny portions of the country where VIOLENCE is a way of life."
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 7, 2018 - 10:21pm
I and you have written hundreds of comment so I am not going to look for what you said I said.  If you know the article date and time they please provide it.
Rusty Smith Added Mar 9, 2018 - 10:02am
Jeff Michka please be much more specific.  I haven't had anything to do with any sporting events since I graduated college, but will entertain specific questions by sharing my opinions.
Rusty Smith Added Mar 9, 2018 - 10:06am
Thomas Sutrina I was agreeing with your statement below:
 
"The reason there are more murders in ghettos of cities is a the society rules are different then in other areas of the same city.  A map of murder in Chicago is concentrated in a few neighborhoods not by accident."
Mroex Added Mar 9, 2018 - 1:31pm
Rusty
may I suggest just a few minor tweaks to your excellent proposal. 
First I am certain there exists more than enough teachers with your level and years of experience shooting.  I am also certain they keep this to themselves so as not to be labelled "gun nuts" by their colleagues. 
 
Discreetly recruit from this group.  Volunteers ONLY!! Have them take a battery of psychological testing as to their stability and ability to handle the extreme stress of engaging a shooter. As teachers, they already are drug and criminal background checked regularly, If I am wrong then ofr course include that.As to legal training in the use of deadly force. The laws are very clear though totally inconsistent in all 50 states.
I myself went for legal training when I got my CCW. It should take no more than 3 weeks for a teacher to learn the law fully in his / her state to the point where they are more than enough knowledgeable.
 
One more tweak, although like yourself and I, they may be very proficient in handling a firearm, I would still require a brief training in how to effectively neutralize a shooter tailored to specifically the school building and grounds environment.
 
Your point about a uniformed security guard having a bullseye on his back is well taken! 
 
 
Rusty Smith Added Mar 9, 2018 - 6:53pm
Mroex I know armed security guards have buckeye's on their chest, I've discussed the statistics with the guard companies and they say for all practical purposes that's the way it works.  People who want to murder people and are often ready to kill themselves after they are done, don't have any problems shooting an armed guard first.
Tubularsock Added Mar 9, 2018 - 7:24pm
Ok, lets get out of fantasy land and get real. Sitting on the bar stool and describing how brave you think you are or even saying aloud, as Orange Tweet stated, that he “felt” that HE would run into the building with a live shooter inside to save the children is just plain ludicrous!
 
EVEN WITH expert training it is a crap shoot, to say the least.
 
If you are a teacher and a live shooting is taking place in your school would YOU pull your pistol out and confront a guy with an assault rifle? Get real!
 
And all this special training crap being discussed. Do you realize how many schools there are in the United States? We couldn’t cover all those schools if we’d call out the Army.
 
It is amazing how brave people are when they are talking about all this. And for those that are well trained they already know how dangerous somebody who doesn’t give a shit about their own life is one dangerous motherfucker ....... and thereby has the kill advantage over someone who is concerned about their own life as well as for those who they are attempting to protect.
Rusty Smith Added Mar 10, 2018 - 1:45pm
Tubularsock as a private citizen I wouldn't run into a school and try to search and destroy tactics to find an active shooter in a room and that's not what this forum proposed is it!  You're making a case that for something that was never proposed.
 
I have not said I plan to force teachers in all schools to become armed first responders, I've said if they have a concealed weapons permit and carry outside the school and want to bring the gun inside instead of being forced to leave it at home while they work, let them.
 
Yes, that means many schools might not have any armed staff if I got my way, but in rural areas where many people regularly carry concealed weapons, many might be armed.
 
I've also said I only want them to shoot in the most extreme cases, like if they are hiding in a classroom and someone with a gun is breaking in.  In that case, yes I don't want them to beg and plead for their and their students lives, I want them to be able to shoot back, probably at very close range.  Classrooms are small.
 
You seem to think an active shooter in a classroom is better off if they have an assault rifle, but classrooms are small, and most school shootings are at very short distances, a few feet.  The shooters go looking for people who are hiding and shoot them.  If any one of them had a pistol they could shoot back and you may not know it but people who aren't shot in the head have plenty of time to shoot back at point blank range, even if they are going to bleed out and die a minute later.  It isn't the movies, most people who are shot don't die for a while and have plenty of time to shoot back, and they don't need an assault rifle to shoot someone who is only a few feet from them.
 
Assault weapons are also generally not as quick to kill as many handguns because the fully jacked ammunition they use is not designed to kill quickly like the ammunition commonly used in most pistols and old fashioned hunting rifles.
 
Nowhere is that more obvious than the North Hollywood shoot out that happened a few years ago where 20 people were shot with assault rifles and none of them died.  Both perpetrators were killed, twelve police officers and eight civilians were injured, and numerous vehicles and other property were damaged or destroyed by the nearly 2,000 rounds of ammunition fired by the robbers and police.
 
When a shooter uses assault rifles, realize that the body count would be higher if they used hunting guns instead, hunting and self defense guns are designed to kill quickly.  Military guns are designed to use Geneva Convention compliant ammunition that is designed to be humane.  Hunting ammunition is available for them, but strangely most active shooters use the military ammo probably because they don't know the difference.
 
If you don't understand the difference let me explain.  Hunting and self defense ammo is designed to break up on impact and wipe out large portions of an animals body, Military ammunition is designed to stay intact, to it makes a clean hole and doesn't break into pieces.  Fewer piceces means less chance of hitting something fatal and makes removal easier and the chances of an infection much lower...  more humane according to the international rules of war.