DRAFT: The Nazis' place in history

<p>While the Nazis were definitely a very dark part of human history, there were others much worse.&#160; We can start with the alcoholic Kemal Ataturk in Turkey that was responsible for the loss of lives of as much or more.&#160; Imagine the Germans having portraits of Hitler everywhere praising him; the Turks on the other hand do.&#160;</p> <p>&#160;</p> <p>Of course there is also the British Royal family that is responsible for many many more lives when they were reigning&#160;over the British Empire; in India they passed a law that resulted in 30 million Indians dying from famine alone; how about the indigenous people of Australia/New Zealand, Africa, Middle East, Asia and Americas?&#160; To take Hong Kong they first dumped opium onto China. These millions of people that lost their lives due to the British Empire were&#160;during times when global populations were less than half of today...&#160;</p> <p>&#160;</p> <p>Many members of the Royal family&#160;even fancied the Nazis.&#160;The Brits not only praise them, they sing a national anthem so to that God may save the Queen/King in addition to the hundreds of millions spent every year for their security, needs and maintenance of dwellings.&#160;&#160;</p>


Dino Manalis Added Mar 13, 2018 - 8:39am
The Nazis were just as bad, there's no point in trying to add a positive spin.  The Nazis were terrible!
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 13, 2018 - 8:42am
Seem you are being very selective.  Death by famine in China and India before the arrival of Europeans are huge.   Islam's policy of convert or die created rivers of blood as that built an empire.  It took a century to kill their way around the Mediterranean African coast and into Spain. The death toll in Asia makes this earlier effort small.  Yes it too centuries.  It is no accident that where Islam never exist it now dominates.  Killing all oppositions does that.   You forget the Islam enslaves those they conquer today.  You will add the conquest of the Americans.   
Tom C. Purcell Added Mar 13, 2018 - 11:19am
Devilishly misunderstood, the Germans from the 'Nazi' era.  The bad guys won in WWII.  The Bolsheviks won.
Mustafa Kemal Added Mar 13, 2018 - 11:49am
Oliver, re:
“We can start with the alcoholic Kemal Ataturk in Turkey that was responsible for the loss of lives of as much or more.”
What “loss of lives of as much or more.””
are you speaking? 
Are you speaking of the Battlle of Galipoli where 70K Turks lost their lives due to a Brititsh/Autralian invasion? 
Are you speaking of the same man that saved Turkey from the Ottomans, the Greeks, the Italians, the French, the Russians and the English?
Is this the same that introduced a parlament to Turkey and gave women equal rights?
Are you speaking of the one which terminated the Califat and instituted  separation of religion and state?
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Mustafa Kemal
Riley Brown Added Mar 13, 2018 - 12:51pm
Oliver, Hitler wasn't the first, last or cruelest, or the most prolific, just a modern example.
Vlad the impaler was hardly a saint by comparison and what he did was much more violent.
Genghis Kahn killed 10 to 30% of the known world's population while he was alive.

More recently Edi Amin, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot, and the list goes on and on.
Stone-Eater Added Mar 13, 2018 - 1:02pm
Idi Amin.....ok. Saddam....questionable (Western press....), Pol Pot...true, but what was the cause and who let him do that ? We have to answer those questions. Not all of them belong into the same pot, not easy as that.
There is always a history BEFORE all happenings. Without that no judgement is possible.
Stone-Eater Added Mar 13, 2018 - 1:04pm
BTW: Take Ruanda. Genocide, 1 Million people. That fruit was planted way before by the French colonisation which lasts until today, only economically. Again, it's easy to blame an event, but one has to understand how it came to it to find the ones who are responsable...
Stone-Eater Added Mar 13, 2018 - 1:07pm
That's what I mean ;-)
Thomas Sutrina Added Mar 13, 2018 - 3:22pm
Mustafa Kemal, you forgot the Armenian Holocaust in Turkey by  In July 1908, Kemal Ataturk played a role in the Young Turk Revolution.  The Young Turks were the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide.   Wikipedia provided this information and http://www.armenian-genocide.org/young_turks.htm provided what is below.  Obviously I have no idea about accuracy.
CUP devised in secret a program for the extermination of the Armenian population. From the viewpoint of Ittihadist ideology and its new and ambitious foreign policy, the Armenians represented a completely vulnerable population straddling an area of major strategic value for its Pan-Turanian goals. Ottoman misrule had made the Armenians, a prosperous minority despite its political disadvantages, sympathetic to Russia. To the Ittihadists, the global crisis of 1914 represented a rare opportunity to change the fortunes of the Ottoman state and to use the cover of war to embark upon a policy of both internal and external social engineering the likes of which had not been attempted or imagined. Once again they gambled on the element of surprise, subterfuge, and radical daring, this time against a civilian minority population. ...
Lastly, the CUP entrusted local command of the genocidal process to the provincial valis, or governors-general, who were made responsible for the execution of Talaat's and Enver's orders. 
[On 29 May 1915, the CUP Central Committee passed the   Temporary Law of Deportation ("Tehcir Law"), giving the Ottoman government and military authorization to deport anyone it "sensed" as a threat to national security.  ... While there is no consensus as to how many Armenians lost their lives during the Armenian Genocide, there is general agreement among western historians that over 800,000 Armenians died between 1914 and 1918. Estimates vary between 800,000 and 1,500,000.  Wikipedia]
With the defeat of the Ottomans in World War I the denouement of the CUP became a drawn out matter pursued by all their opponents.
Mustafa Kemal Added Mar 13, 2018 - 4:13pm
Thomas Sutrina, 
“, you forgot the Armenian Holocaust by Turkey   In July 1908, “
I did not forget, in fact I was expecting   a reference to the genocide of 1915.  Anyway,
this is a bit disengenous. First, to quibble there was no Turkey in 1908, Yes, many were killed then and afterwards, but nothing compare to the genocide of 1915. I hope you know that there are many forces at play in what is written on Wiki.
In particular, the word holocaust is very suggestive. In fact, there is evidence that this “holocaust” was a very useful propoganda tool to get the US into WWI. Demonizing those wicked rapacious Turks has been as popular as demonizing the mongol hords, the gooks in Vietman and the evil russians. There are even numbers like 6 million floating around.
Moreover, lets think about the end of empire. It might be good practice since it looks like the US is headed that way. 
The Ottomans, throughout their history had a policy to only fight on  one front at a time. That thousand miles from Adrianapole to Van
is a long communications train.
During WWI, according to WIKI  the Ottoman state lost %13-15 of its people -dead.  What percentage of Americans lost their lives?  %.13, thats point .13 percent. Thats just WWI.
Since the civil war Americans have had no experience wtih serious loss of life to their citizenry. I suspect, when one family starts losing a father and a few sons it could affect your compassion for others.
I suspect that, contrary to Wiki,  the Armenian genocide was less racial than it was a calculated move to remove  one of the threats to the empire, the eastern front with Armenians as Russia proxies.
re: “Kemal Ataturk played a role in the Young Turk Revolution."
"The Young Turks were the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide."
True, I hold those three responsible. During the 1915  battle of Gallipoli Mustafa Kemal was promoted to Colonel, hardly a mastermind of the genocide ocurring simultaneously  1000 miles to the east.
Stone-Eater Added Mar 13, 2018 - 4:16pm
You got a point there. But how many native Americans were killed by European settlers ? 
Human nature. Become many and kill the few on the way. Archaic, as we are until today. Only the weapons have changed.
The most successful tool to get a mass of people to kill others is still religion. No matter which one. I wait for the revenge of Christians against Muslims. The eternal monotheistic fight.
Oh my fucking god LOL
Stone-Eater Added Mar 13, 2018 - 4:17pm
BTW: The only reason my wife and I haven't start a deadly fight is the fact that she's Muslim and I'm Atheist ;-)
Stone-Eater Added Mar 13, 2018 - 4:21pm
Thomas, genocides are never a fight of one people against another. They are orchestrated wars in order to get control of a country and are almost exclusively organized from OUTSIDE the concerned countries. 
Like Yugoslavia. People who have lived peacefully together for decades or longer and suddenly start to fight each other are people who are either illiterate, manipulated by the press or the religion card is played - or all at the same time.
Doug Plumb Added Mar 13, 2018 - 4:22pm
Not a single person that returned as an allie from a German concentration camp had a complaint. The Red Cross was permitted in Germany during the war and Hitler didn't hide anything from them. The allies...a different story entirely, that includes starving 2 million Germans while they were surrounded by a fence and under guard. No water no food. Victors write history books then restrict free speech on that victory.
Doug Plumb Added Mar 13, 2018 - 4:24pm
You should not believe the holocaust because no free debate has ever occurred regarding its existence. Questioning it and only it can lead to prison. Is this because they have something to hide? Scholars are allowed to question the Bolshevik revolution, which was a thousand times worse in magnitude and a million times worse in terms of sickness and cruelty. Why not learn about this in school?
Doug Plumb Added Mar 13, 2018 - 4:25pm
...ten times worse in magnitude, at least.
Tom C. Purcell Added Mar 13, 2018 - 4:31pm
"BTW: The only reason my wife and I haven't start a deadly fight is the fact that she's Muslim and I'm Atheist."
It seems that fear and regret drive atheistic embrace.  I can see how people would describe Christianity, or other religions as based on fear and regret too, for that matter.  But it's inverse.  Atheists wish to shed regret and the guilt of sin.  Christians wish to acknowledge their sins, and repent.  Well, in principle they do as I see it, and most abide or intend to with the utmost regard for their religion.  Some, however, do fail.
What I mean is...what without God?  Without the gospels your conscience is relaxed.  Without bible study, perhaps you don't have to regret your sins.  Without religion, you are free to be dust in the wind, to land however on whomever you please, for any reason whatsoever.  Well, how much of that is just not wanting to grow up?  How much of that is fear of failure, or imperfection?  How much of that is simply, giving in to temptation?
In the end, Atheists and Christians have a lot of the same questions for each other.
Riley Brown Added Mar 13, 2018 - 5:59pm
Stone Eater, most of the Native Americans died from diseases they had no immunity to.  Even Missionaries trying to save them did far more to kill them off than settlers who shot them.
I dare say many warring Native American tribes brutalized, murdered and enslaved more of their fellow Native Americans than the settlers killed.
Tom C. Purcell Added Mar 13, 2018 - 6:05pm
"I dare say many warring Native American tribes brutalized, murdered and enslaved more of their fellow Native Americans than the settlers killed."
That's an unpopular point of view, but it's the truth.  It's not like our ancestors came over with million-man armies to face of against Roman divisions.  The primitive peoples and savages on the U.S. mainland got a heavy dose of natural selection - if you endorse that sorta thing...invasive bacterium and virus strains among technological, developmental and some social disadvantages in contrast to the arriving Europeans/Scandinavians.
Tom C. Purcell Added Mar 13, 2018 - 6:05pm
'face off' against Roman divisions/legions.
ChristianRepublic Added Mar 13, 2018 - 6:51pm
Over 80k ethnic Germans were murdered by Poles in the formerly German regions of Poland. Hitler begged for it to stop, repeatedly. No other nations would do anything about it either, so what was he supposed to have done?
Why didn't Britain have a treaty with Poland regarding invasion by Russia? Why did they have one in case Germany invaded?
Remember when France invaded and occupied Alsace-Lorraine in the 1920's? You can look it up.
People interpret history through the lenses of the victors. We have to constantly remind ourselves that what is taken as history is often as fake as an average evening of TV programming.
Tom C. Purcell Added Mar 13, 2018 - 7:15pm
It sounds like you're well informed but still, you might enjoy some of my posts if you haven't already.  Good point about Alsace-Lorraine.
ChristianRepublic Added Mar 13, 2018 - 7:29pm
I commented on your Khazars piece.
Oliver Added Mar 14, 2018 - 1:30am
You seem to have forgotten in 1922 when he turned Muslim Pontians against Christian Pontians fearing that the Pontians would declare their own independent state.  You forget the Greeks that lived in Konstantinople and how they were either killed or forced to flee.  From a Byzantine/Greek city of hundreds of thousands of Greeks today there are only 1000. You also forget the Greeks in Smyrni and how your own Erdogan today refers to them as pushed into the sea to drown.
Hitler once said "Who now remembers the Armenians" referring to the Jewish genocide.  Of course it is not just Kemal, but a common factor of Ottoman/Turkish history to commit genocide.  Assyrian Arabs?  How about Cyprus in 1974 and the migration of Turks in order to change the demographics of the island?  Even today, and in addition to Afrin, the Turkish forces are committing genocide in southeastern Turkey, killing, leveling and displacing thousands of Kurds.  
The terrorists have always been the Turks. Always.  Kemal your 'nation' got away with much but today the Turks are on their way to becoming the next Libya, Iraq and Syria.  What the Turks did in Syria to destabilize the nation is coming to Turkey shortly.  There are 30 million Kurds living in Turkey alone...  Erdogan will be the first on the street trying to flee your nation in order to spend all the money stolen from those he leads today.
Flying Junior Added Mar 14, 2018 - 1:35am
Shorter Oliver:
Thank God for the Nazis.