Screaming about RACISM where none exists, helps create more racism

I constantly hear black people say contemporary racism is alive and well and what's preventing most black people from reaching their full potential.  At this time I think they would be better off ignoring the small amount that still exists and letting the rest of America start to see them as equals, not a people who complain, complain, complain, demand change, and accuse everyone else of being racists and holding them back.


Not that long ago black employees at one company became incensed at because of a RACIST logo on a popular storage box; there were many at their company. See the link:

Of course if you're not Black and frantically searching for ways to keep racism alive, you might not have noticed, but the Black community wasted no time protesting and got the boxes removed, after all they had KKK right on the front of them.


In case you're wondering, I think it is Henry Knaack who started making those boxes in the 60's and since he's not Black probably had no idea his company emblem was so racist, he just thought it was neat that every box has his name on it.  To me all their discovery proved was that if you look hard enough you can find racism even where none really exists.


Their action became just one more recent example that people who are sick and tired of being accused of being racists, or having to make expensive and unreasonable changes to satisfy a group of malcontents will use to keep racism alive where it might have otherwise disappeared.


At some point you can actually do more harm to yourself by fighting injustices, than you can by absorbing the injustices and turning into people who no one can come up with good justifications for further discrimination.  Blacks will never get there as long as they make themselves exceptionally painful to be around and work with.


Ian Thorpe Added Apr 2, 2018 - 12:43pm
These people need to be reminded constantly that it was their own people, their tribal overlords who sold them into slavery first to Arab traders then later to European merchants who cut out the Arab middle man.
But that trade ended 200 years ago and slavery in the USA ended 150 years ago. We are not responsible for the acts of our ancestors, no matter how abhorrent those acts might have been.
Pardero Added Apr 2, 2018 - 1:03pm
Rusty Smith,
You make an excellent point here.
That is why I believe that successful black parents should be the dominant voices in crafting policies that address the inner city problems, not the usual race pimps and white progressive elites. 
The attitudes that you mention, are the biggest stumbling block to any improvement in the situation. 
We don't get to hear some ideas because they are drowned out by prevailing group think. 
I say we listen to successful black parents instead of the usual bunch that are crying 'racism.'
Dave Volek Added Apr 2, 2018 - 6:19pm
Excellent points. While it is important to get to know the past, at some point one has to move beyond the past.
It seems to me that we have lost our abilities to find those elders who actually have some wisdom. Too many elders are fools, which then discredits the whole notion of listening to elders in the first place.
I have had a few life experiences where older people could not understand why the youth gave them no respect, yet these older people did little to deserve that respect--other than being old.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 2, 2018 - 8:35pm
Ian Thorpe my ancestors came on a steamboat long after slavery was a distant memory, but I'm still asked to step aside and give people whose only claim to being more disadvantaged than I am is that their skin is black and mine isn't.  
As an employer I've endured years of claims of racial discrimination from minorities who job performance, not skin color, is what made them a less productive tool than their coworkers.  If it was about skin color I'd not have hired them in the first place.  Even though I never lost in court, the fights cost my companies hundreds of thousands
Rusty Smith Added Apr 2, 2018 - 8:41pm
Pardero they blame everything they don't have on racism and regularly play both sides.  If we police their neighborhoods we are racists harassing them, and if we let them police themselves we are racists for ignoring criminals in their neighborhoods.
They want to be equal, but call us racists if we expect them to compete on a par with white students, because only a racist would deny them things based on objective testing.  If they are allowed to get in and given preferential treatment in colleges, when they get out they call the people who aren't sure their degrees are as earned as non blacks degrees, racists.  They can't have it both ways, they are either equal or not and I vote for equal.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 2, 2018 - 8:46pm
Dave Volek its never fun to start at the bottom and work your way up, but that's what I had to do and I don't see why black parents can't tell their kids they have to too.  I started my career digging ditches at 13.  That got me my first real paycheck.   
They don't have to tell their kids they aren't smart enough to get a job, that its not worth getting a good education even if the parents didn't have one, those things are choices. 
Their kids don't have to use or sell drugs if they can't make it into the NFL or NBA, they can work for a living, starting at the bottom and in a few years be middle class just like everyone else.
Shane Laing Added Apr 3, 2018 - 4:18am
Rusty. I couldn't agree more. I blame the do-gooders for this.  Those who said we shouldn't discipline kids in school, getting rid of corporal punishment are the ones to blame.  Kids can get away with anything nowadays in schools. No teacher or head can discipline them so they take advantage. They don't learn because they don't want to. This all began in the 70s and those kids are now the older generation. They never had discipline instilled into them so they didn't know or care how to instil it into their children. If kids (black or white) cant be bothered to learn and get an education then they have no chance and will blame everyone but themselves. 
Mark Hunter Added Apr 3, 2018 - 4:22am
I once lost out on a job because I'm white (or at least, not Native American enough), so clearly there is still racism in America in both directions. So why not address real racism when it appears, rather than go searching for it where none exists? Unless, somehow, someone is profiting from it ...
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 3, 2018 - 9:00am
Racism or the assumed threat of such is a political vector.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 3, 2018 - 9:01am
Mark Hunter
"I once lost out on a job because I'm white (or at least, not Native American enough), so clearly there is still racism in America in both directions. "
So did I as the company refused to hire or promote white males.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 3, 2018 - 11:10am
Shane Laing where I live many students who are not interested in learning disrupt the class and terrorize the teachers all the time.  When teachers were allowed to swat them even the toughest kids tried to behave when teachers were looking because no one wanted to get swatted.
Today the rule is that teaches can't touch students, even if they are doing something very dangerous.  A few years ago one I know personally got in huge trouble for grabbing a boy who he'd told not to operate a very dangerous cut off saw and yanking him back when he lunged towards the machine to prove he could use it anyway.
That saw could have chopped his hand off in a split second, but all the teacher was allowed to do is try and reason with him.
There was a video I saw of a young girl in a principal's office, frantically destroying everything she could get her hands on, and all the principal was able to do was try and block her with her body, basketball style.  
I say bring back the swats and let teachers teach.  If kids don't want to learn let them sit quietly an let the other kids learn.  That is one thing that makes private schools much better, they kick out disruptive kids.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 3, 2018 - 11:20am
Mark and Ryck, I worked for a very large company with government associations that regularly has to hire and promote select minorities over qualified whites in order to meet their EEO goals.  It's no secret, but they do try to do it discreetly.   
As a hiring manager I often had to make selections and they have a very formalized process that exists to reduce the possibility we might cherry pick someone ourselves using unacceptable criteria.  We could only rate them on qualities listed in the job description.  After we did, and knew who prevailed numerically the whole thing was given to the EEO office for them to do their part.
Their first goal was to meet their EEO goals so if they determined there was a minority person who "MIGHT" be able to do the job, they gave that person the job even if there were plenty of other applicants who were much more qualified.  To be discreet they would return the package to me, the hiring manager, and ask me to sign off on it.  When I refused things didn't go well for me.  The person was hired anyway, they announced their hiring or promotion as though the person was found to be the best of those who applied, and they got angrier and angrier at me for not signing off on their paperwork.
As you might imagine, most people in the company realized what was going on and resented it very much.  I watched minorities climb the ladder who couldn't even do their job before they were promoted.  I watched praise heaped on employees who were so undeserving it made me and other people at the company sick.
Tom Coleman Added Apr 3, 2018 - 12:28pm
We have had at least a century of focus on people’s rights:  women’s rights, black rights, gay rights, hispanic rights.  Once every group gets theirs, a new group will emerge with their list of ‘rights’.
The ‘right’ to have something has now come to incorrectly include the ‘opportunity’ to have something.  When Obamacare was being promoted, its supporters declared that it was the ‘right’ of every American to have healthcare.  It’s not.   It’s every Americans right to have the opportunity to have healthcare.  To say it is strictly a right usually means someone else is going to pay for that right.  One should have the opportunity to have healthcare not the right.  You have the opportunity to have healthcare, now pay for it.
Once you start a ‘rights’ movement you can’t get rid of them.  They don’t go away even though their initial goals have been achieved.  They’re like a government agency that continues to exist for its own existence.  “The dream goes on, the work is never done”, they say.
There is a classification of which groups have power based on how much society says they’ve been screwed.  Black people are at the top and white men are at the bottom.  This power index is also a culpability index of which group they say needs to change.
The higher one is on the power index the more dangerous it is to criticize them.  It is completely permissible to point out white men’s faults, which they’ve continually heard about through 60 years of the black and women’s rights movements, but perilous to do so for black people.  Criticizing black people is called ‘racism’, criticizing whites and white men in particular is considered noble, courageous and long overdue justice the progressives suggest.
Enigma in Black Added Apr 3, 2018 - 12:43pm
Racism can be found where it doesn't exist. Racism can also be ignored where it does. The number of commenters who seem to feel black people are a monolithic group are acknowledging their own stereotypes and have already stopped looking at people as individuals. 
There are policies and laws that discriminate and if pointing that out disturbs any of you, help change them. Voter suppression, gerrymandering, redistricting are all real things with the intent of deleting black and others voting strength. Ignore that if you will, but progress has never been achieved by waiting for those in control to grant it.
Regarding affirmative action and other programs establishing minimums for hiring and involving minority/women business enterprises. These are reactions to minorities being excluded from jobs, contracts, universities. Without these policies, there would be even more of an underclass than already exists.
Please note I'm not blaming white people, more like powerful people who benefit from the status quo and seek to perpetuate it.
Racism is still a contemporary and real thing. Not the reason for all the ills that befall us but a factor which if ignored will always play a part.
Dino Manalis Added Apr 3, 2018 - 12:54pm
We have plenty of laws which prevent racism, but there's still plenty of discrimination in society we have to deal with.
Tom Coleman Added Apr 3, 2018 - 1:03pm
The reason we're having all this discussion about race is because black people are not doing near as well as other ethnic groups.  Black people proclaim a never-ending drum beat about 'racism' when it is an excuse to avoid thoughtfully examining real root causes within their own culture that are impeding their progress.  I live in the SF Bay Area and I can tell you it is a huge microcosm of world cultures.  Asian groups, many relatively new to the area, are thriving.  Just about every group is doing well except for pockets of black communities.  The answer to black success is within black control; it is not found by blaming others.  Believe me, we're all fatigued after all these years, hearing you ascribe fault to others.  As Arthur Ashe, famous black tennis star said, decades ago, black people suffer from a huge inferiority complex.
Carole McKee Added Apr 3, 2018 - 1:58pm
I once worked for a company that came into my area as new. Many were hired for the job, and people, both black and white, were promoted to supervisor positions. Then a very qualified black man was promoted to head of the facility. Within 4 months, every supervisory position was filled with a black person. Absolutely no white people held a supervisory position. White people were let go and replaced with black people. By this time I had already left the company and moved on. 
But seriously, where was the equality there? Why were they allowed to get away with the discrimination? Nobody can tell me there were no qualified white people to hold supervisory positions. I knew better. Black people want equality, and I am all for that; but that was not equality in that company. That was simple racism toward white people.
Tamara Wilhite Added Apr 3, 2018 - 2:04pm
When Jewish never-Trumper Ben Shapiro is called a Nazi by the control-left and moderate liberal Dave Rubin is called a white supremacist for interviewing Dr. Jordan Peterson, we know liberal bullies just use those insults on EVERYONE.
Mark W. Sibert Added Apr 3, 2018 - 3:31pm
Well Dave, about your article itself, I see nothing wrong with the box and I agree that, like finding Jesus' image on toast or shapes in stars that make constellations, we can find any shape or configuration if we look hard enough.
But I told my children they had to work from the bottom up if they weren't educated well enough.  I had to learn that, and help them learn more than other kids, and prepared them for college, or the school of their endeavors.
But career position has nothing to do with social standing (or not as much), or one's experience with police if you are a large person with an intimidating look, or when you notice the coincidence that certain people (race or ethnicity or culture) seem to be promoted around you.  "Are they just friends and i'm not in the clique?" you may begin to wonder.  Then you begin to see patterns and hope you can break their pattern by being friendly, and then via self-promotion, then direct requests to be tested to show your talents.  But when you prove yourself and still the new person of 8 months get promoted after you have been around for several years... You start to heat up, and your optimism depletes.
These are the frustrations of a Black man and the experiences instituted around us.  So before you talk about unqualified workers, or lazy and looking for handouts as the wide stroke of how to see us, there are those of us who do our best, show we're well-suited and finely dressed for presentation and honestly earnest, but are ignored, you ask if it's a coincidence, a shadow of preference, or the deep unenlightened chasm of bigotry.  When do shades of distinction become the line of division so that you can actually say "he's a victim of prejudice"?
Mark W. Sibert Added Apr 3, 2018 - 3:33pm
Not Dave, I meant Rusty.
Mark W. Sibert Added Apr 3, 2018 - 3:37pm
But Dave.  Why haven't the Confederates moved on?  They put up statutes of their defeated leaders almost a century after the war as a message that "the South shall rise again" BS.  Martin Luther King, Jr was killed only 50 years ago as of tomorrow.
Stone-Eater Added Apr 3, 2018 - 3:44pm
constantly hear black people say contemporary racism is alive and well and what's preventing most black people from reaching their full potential. my last comment on Lynn's article. I know that from my own experience - but not in the US. People like to play victim. Because it keeps them from being responsible.
Just had another people in mind ... but I better leave that out :-)
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 3, 2018 - 3:47pm
"Their first goal was to meet their EEO goals so if they determined there was a minority person who "MIGHT" be able to do the job, they gave that person the job even if there were plenty of other applicants who were much more qualified. "
We had a lot of that and also several sensitivity courses as well. The mandate here, that sank the company later, was to prove that diversity have higher profits, growth and produced better employees. 
What happened was what some of us called malicious compliance that worked as follows: If a minority placed in charge of some project came up with stupid ideas that would certainly fail then  the majority of us endorsed this path forward without prejudice or alternative suggestions.   Management was not immune to  being fired for poor business sector performance  so  many of these attempts ended in disaster and they were fired only to hire more and try again. 
The company was chopped up. 
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 3, 2018 - 3:49pm
"Just had another people in mind ... but I better leave that out :-)"
Many things such as the truth are disallowed on threads such as this. 
Stone-Eater Added Apr 3, 2018 - 3:50pm
Racism is a minor problem in Western societies. When someone doesn't believe that, he should go to Africa and check out how they often get down to business when other people come in as refugees. Or Asia. Rohyinga ? 
Uganda was a positive example. They, being poor, accepted 2 million refugees from South Sudan. 
But the other example is the rich nation of Israel, who, as a persecuted people since ages, want to kick out a mere 40'000 immigrants......
Ergo "racism" is politics and propaganda. No more than that. As usual the question is: Who profits from racial unrest ?
Rusty Smith Added Apr 3, 2018 - 6:05pm
Enigma in Black discrimination will never go away, but at this point in time my forum point is that the overall black community will be better served to ignore all the small trespasses so they can rebrand themselves as a people no one needs to fear.
For over 100 years the black brand has been "mess with us and we'll make you sorry you ever met us", and that attitude did help overcome endemic racism in our historic past.  Now only a few splinter white supremacist groups really practice racism and even the vast majority of white people think they are jerks.
I would say racist discrimination against blacks reached a low point shortly before Obama was elected, but since then it's increased in direct correlation to the proportion of the news that features angry black people demanding change, especially when they claim they are being discriminated against.  Their frequent and very public claims that all white people are racists greatly upsets the majority of non black people, even those who previously never had a personal reason to dislike black people.  
When black people generically call white people racists, they create ill will and cause more racist behavior than they stop.  
If you try something and it doesn't make things better, try something else, don't keep beating the same old drum and wonder why it never works.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 3, 2018 - 6:10pm
Mark W. Sibert the vast majority of the South has moved on, you can't watch a few nutcases who make the news and assume everyone in that part of the country thinks like they do.  That doesn't work anywhere.
I also don't think you need to be a redneck nutcase to value old war monuments, there were many that remind me what went wrong, but I still think they should have left them intact.  They are historical reminders that even I value and I've only visited those places and battlefields.  I am glad I have pictures of  many of the ones they ripped out.
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 4, 2018 - 10:04am
Go read a bunch of Charles Barkley interviews.  I was looking for the one statement he made on racism but didn't find it.  I found him saying a lot of very similar things that make sense.   What i couldn't find was him saying the Racism is not skin color but is economic racism.  The Black Ghettos is the environment that create economic racism.  Poor schools, the destruction of the family structure, lack of job opportunity, and crime.   He is not the only or the first to state this.  Black economist have been saying this for decades but no one is or wants to listen.  
We want to end economic racism then change welfare by removing the incentive to marry and raise your children in two parent house holds.    Very few two family black families are in poverty.   The marchers with King in the south came from black churches and two parent house holds.
We want to end economic racism then give the poor choice in where they educate their children.  End the monopoly imposed by the Teachers Union on public education.  Dr Milton Friedman defines the problem of government  bureaucrats (which the teachers union is) unions of federal workers and welfare and VA bureaucrats:  "The bureaucrats spend someone else’s money on someone else. Only human kindness, not the much stronger and more dependable spur of self-interest, assures that they will spend the money in the way most beneficial to the recipients. Hence the wastefulness and ineffectiveness of the spending.
But that is not all. The lure of getting someone else’s money is strong. Many, including the bureaucrats administering the programs, will try to get it for themselves rather than have it go to someone else. The temptation to engage in corruption, to cheat, is strong and will not always be resisted or frustrated.

People who resist the temptation to cheat will use legitimate means to direct the money to themselves. They will lobby for legislation favorable to themselves, for rules from which they can benefit. The bureaucrats administering the programs will press for better pay and perquisites for themselves an outcome that larger programs will facilitate."  https://wichitaliberty,org/economics/friedman-the-fallacy-of-the-welfare-state/
Rusty Smith Added Apr 4, 2018 - 10:52am
Thomas Sutrina I believe that the economics of poverty are a trap that is not easy to get out of and I have personal experiences to prove it.  Simply put any serious attempts to work simultaneously jeopardize a poor person's lifestyle by threatening to get the assistance they receive cancelled.  If the attempt to work doesn't work out, they are left with nothing until they go through a very painful process to get their benefits restored.
That being said it's easy to see that people with the right attitude don't let that hold them back.  Most Asians who come here destitute and not even speaking English, escape poverty in one generation.  There is no reason black people, who do speak English, can't do the same thing.  Yes it's hard but it can be done if you try.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 4, 2018 - 12:11pm
"There is no reason black people, who do speak English, can't do the same thing.  Yes it's hard but it can be done if you try."
crime, drugs, broken homes, school dropouts, sloth, alcohol and more diminish any chances for a level playing field.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 4, 2018 - 6:40pm
rycK the JFK Democrat crime, drugs, broken homes, school dropouts, sloth, alcohol and more diminish any chances for a level playing field  if you compare them to more affluent people, but how do you explain away the way people from other cultures with equal handicaps quickly pass them by?
Obama overcame the same problems, and so do the vast majority of Asians.  It can be done, lots of people from other cultures do it all the time, but for some reasons blacks regularly don't.
Shane Laing Added Apr 5, 2018 - 3:59am
Rusty, it seems to be ingrained in many. As we discussed before they cant be bothered to learn and "its not cool" to learn. Yet we know its generally the only way to get ahead. I am sure if there was a way to make school "cool" their lot would improve dramatically.
Leroy Added Apr 5, 2018 - 9:07am
Excellent article, Rusty.  It is a shame that it has come to this.
Fortunately, I have never experienced this during my employment.  Thinking back, without exception, all the black employees were top notch.  If there is any person whom I could choose to be in the trench with me, it would be my former colleague from Ethiopia.  While working in China, he was there to support me any time of day or night.  He wasn't obliged to do so.  He's truly the best of the best.
In truth, there were very few blacks in our organization.  They generally got hired away by another company willing to pay a premium.  The same goes for women in technical fields.  I do feel that I was discriminated against, but not by blacks.  We had a forced ranking process.  In the end, women were automatically bumped up a notch.  It may be true for minorities as well, but I cannot confirm it.  Women in technical fields who were not hired away were often promoted to their level of incompetence.  When I left, all the women in technical positions who were not managers were contractors.
One woman quickly rose to a high-level position.  She was a piece of work.  She didn't want to be bothered with facts and figures; she wanted pictures.  If it was good, she wanted to see a green smiley face.  If it was bad, she wanted to see a red sad face.  There was another who was or is a plant manager.  The buck for safety is supposed to stop with the plant manager.   She got a pass on three occasions.  She was able to turn a blind eye to one accident.  A male would not have been treated so kindly. 
Rusty Smith Added Apr 5, 2018 - 10:26am
Leroy I've seen both, minorities who clearly earned their positions and others who everyone probably including them knew were only awarded their positions because the company needed to meet their EEO goals.
One close friend I have is married to a white blond hair blue eye teacher who couldn't get a teaching job in any nice neighborhood despite the fact their were openings and she graduated second in her class.  That remained true even after she'd been teaching very successfully for a while and was designing curriculum for the school she worked for.  The schools that rejected her told her they had quotas that they had to make progress towards and did not need white blond hair blue eye teacher.  She was able to get a job in bad neighborhoods which are 99% Hispanic and Black.
My friend is Armenian, dark skin and so is his sister, who did poorly in school but was hired by a local school in a nice neighborhood because she looks Mexican, even though she didn't speak any Spanish.  She was given an emergency credential and paid far more than my friends wife because she looks Hispanic.  Over the years shes' slowly gotten her credential but never got good grades.  She's always been quite arrogant and considers herself much better than my friends wife because she has a much better job.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 5, 2018 - 1:50pm
"Obama overcame the same problems [drugs, crime, sloth, poor education], and so do the vast majority of Asians.  It can be done, lots of people from other cultures do it all the time, but for some reasons blacks regularly don't."
Check out the graduation rates of blacks  from HS and their share of the prison population in our  prisons.
Despite the affirmative action and other programs the net result is negative and things are now probably worse than in 1965.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 5, 2018 - 1:51pm
"Rusty, it seems to be ingrained in many. As we discussed before they cant be bothered to learn and "its not cool" to learn. Yet we know its generally the only way to get ahead. I am sure if there was a way to make school "cool" their lot would improve dramatically."
We have tried hundreds of things. What do  you suggest?
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 5, 2018 - 3:10pm
Rusty I never said or implied >>Simply put any serious attempts to work simultaneously jeopardize a poor person's lifestyle by threatening to get the assistance they receive cancelled.>> How Rusty is this threatening to get the assistance they receive cancelled, "change welfare by removing the [dis] incentive to marry and raise your children in two parent house holds.  ... give the poor choice in where they educate their children." I ment disincentive 
Now Milton Friedman said that there is a lot of waist and corruption in someone spending someone else's' money on someone else.  That to is not cancelling. 
Rusty do you sit in a corner never doing anything because as you said, "If the attempt to work doesn't work out, they are left with nothing."  The answer is that you address the potential of failure in the beginning.  You do not for example change the policy in the nation but pick a state like Delaware.  Then add more states until the bugs are worked out.
Now this last part explains why we need a border wall and to actually enforce the non-welfare law for immigrants.  Those that leave there native nation for good, Irish held wakes for those leaving, came by choice and did not expect handouts, welfare.  did exactly what the asians do, "who come here destitute and not even speaking English, escape poverty in one generation."    When you come to America with the understanding that you will succeed then success happens.  What government has done is to create a method of growing the welfare population and destroying the culture of blacks in ghettos.  
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 5, 2018 - 3:35pm
"When you come to America with the understanding that you will succeed then success happens. What government has done is to create a method of growing the welfare population and destroying the culture of blacks in ghettos.  "
Well said.  But this leads to very successful politics for the far left don't   you think?
Benjamin Goldstein Added Apr 5, 2018 - 4:38pm
I have yet to be called a nigger ape while a bull throws me into a jail for speed driving.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 5, 2018 - 5:42pm
rycK the JFK Democrat I would suggest rewriting the social assistance programs so it was not nearly as comfortable or easy for able bodied people to receive social assistance indefinitely, essentially make it so uncomfortable for them that they get fed up and want to get an education and work.  Many of them already do and escape proving the ones left behind only lack the will or incentive.
I would still provide generous benefits to those who are disabled, like people with Polio, but having kids out of wedlock would definitely not qualify someone for enough social assistance to sit home, play with kids, eat junk food, use drugs, and watch TV all day. 
I might replace it with a sexually segregated military style housing complex, full of bunk beds and a chow line so no one could say they were hungry, cold or didn't have shelter.  I'd allow anyone without other alternatives including the traveling poor to stay there.  Close by I'd have mandatory school for the children and there would even be a curfew, and the public TVs and all other areas to do anything but sleep in the dark would be shut down by 9 pm so the could be wide awake at 5 am when breakfast is served. 
If it sounds like what people in our military already do on a voluntary basis, why yes it is awful close, and close to Hostels in Europe too.  All anyone would need to do to escape is get a job and leave.
Mass housing, and mass food service would be far less expensive and the people would be much easier to police.  I demand fingerprints so we know who's there, and part of accepting would be allowing random drug tests and searches of their bodies and belongings at any time.  If they don't like it all they have to do is leave, support themselves and stay out of trouble.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 5, 2018 - 5:54pm
Thomas Sutrina actually yes, many generational poor people refuse to work because  "If the attempt to work doesn't work out, they are left with nothing."  
I've had people quit working for me after I gave them a raise, because the added income would have affected their social assistance, and I've had low paying people quit after they realized their lifestyle was nearly as good with what they could get for free.  As one told me, "why the hell should I get up early go to work every day, and worry about getting sick if I can stay home and do anything I want all day, and live almost as well?"  
I had girlfriend with two kids who lost her housing benefits, because I got her a job paid enough to disqualify her for housing but wasn't enough for her to afford comparable housing on her own.  Getting a job got her thrown out of a small 2 bedroom apartment and she could only afford a one bedroom one after that.  She also got auto insurance for the first time ever and it was a hard sell because prior to having a good job there was no need for it.  People don't sue people who have nothing and no job.  Before I met her her car used to break a lot and she often didn't have money to fix it for a month or more, but it didn't matter.  Once she had to pay her own rent, health insurance, auto insurance and food, when it broke she had to borrow money to get it fixed ASAP, or she'd run out of money.  Before when everything was provided it didn't matter if she couldn't get to work... she didn't need to.
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 5, 2018 - 8:05pm
Rusty you just proved my point that I suggested.  Welfare is designed to keep people on welfare for political reasons, votes.   So yes, the politicians want illegal residents to vote and not just any residents but those that receive assistant.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 6, 2018 - 9:49am
Thomas Sutrina I do agree that politicians often do try to give more and more to the generational poor in order to buy their votes, but at the same time notice that only blacks and native Americans seem to so satisfied with the lifestyle they can attain without working that large groups of them never bother to improve themselves.  There are scattered pockets of exceptions in other cultures, but nothing comparable to those two communities.
Our politicians have also bought government workers votes with never ending underserved benefit and pension increases that are now so generous that the average government worker pension costs taxpayers about 3 million dollars.  There are no private companies that have anything comparable.
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 6, 2018 - 10:50am
Rusty you forgot the illiterate illegal immigrants that get lots of bennies such as health care, education, and even welfare that is prohibited by federal law.   And they do vote in states like California, New York, and Illinois where the only requirement to vote is your oath that your a citizen. 
Now let me see they broke the law when coming here so with little or no ramification why would they not lie?   They lie and purchase false Social Security numbers to get a job.  As an election Judge in Illinois I can assure you that I have no means to catch anyone.  A grandson can vote with grandpa's name, impossible to catch that.  Enough Americans speak with a spanish accent that I can not separate an illegal person from a legal person.  
An election judge questioned a iresh/polish sister-in-law because she married a mexican that is an American Citizen.  She laughed at the judge.
Poverty is relative, Rusty, the problem of whole neighborhoods living on welfare is that it is the norm in the area.  They are living up to the neighbors.  How can you have envy drive people above their neighbor when the neighbor is also on welfare.  The contest is about gaming the system to get more welfare.
Want to fix the problem requires changing the expectations of children.  Can not do that in the Teachers Union driven public schools.  They want that pay increase and know the piggy bank is controlled by Democrat politicians.  They serve the interest of those that put money into their pocket.
Mike Haluska Added Apr 6, 2018 - 12:23pm
Racism is being kept in the spotlight despite the major improvements in society since the days of southern Democrats oppressing blacks in the south while Boston Democrats beat the hell out of black kids being integrated into all white "Southy" neighborhoods and Democratically controlled big cities like NY, Boston, DC, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, LA, Philadelphia, etc. confined blacks to their Welfare State "plantations".
And Republicans who were the majority of signers of the Civil Rights legislation in the 1960's are the racists . . .  
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 6, 2018 - 1:07pm
Makes good sense in leftist politics.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 7, 2018 - 12:16pm
Thomas Sutrina actually I do know a lot about illegals voting and know most that live near me have fake id that includes real social security numbers stolen from Americans.
Several years ago one of my friends didn't believe a group of illegals who were talking about who they were voting for, challaned them and found out they really were voting.   They proved it by showing him their absentee ballots, and later even had him make up a name, and then they had a real absentee ballot sent to his address, with that name.  He and I were not happy, so we spent the next year trying to do something about illegals voting and ended up stumped.
Where we live it's not ok for officials to ask for ID when people vote, so anyone can look at the list that is posted at the voting center, pick a name, say that's them and vote.  They can also get absentee ballots sent to them and vote.  They can even say they live in your house and if you are behind them in line, overheard and challenge them the ballot folks still have to let them vote even though you swear they don't live at your house, and the vote counts.  At some later time they will try to find out if that person really lives at your house and is a citizen, but their previous vote still counts, and there is nothing to stop them from driving from one voting center to another and doing that all day.
Our voting rules make voting for citizens only, a farce
Steve Bergeron Added Apr 7, 2018 - 3:21pm
As Dr. Shelby Steele said, there is still some racism in this country and the world.  However, it has had relatively little impact on holding down black people.  He said that if you had to rank it in the list of things holding black people back from being successful, it would probably rank about 19th or 20th, i.e., it would be insignificant.  He said there are far greater problems facing the black community than racism, such as the vast majority of black children being raised in single-parent homes without fathers.   
Carole McKee Added Apr 7, 2018 - 3:56pm
I have not contributed to this discussion but one time. I am just so sick of the race issue. Yes, in many cases black people are treated unfairly. All the discussion in the word is not going to change that. But when there are laws against discrimination, and police forces who ignore these laws, there is nothing the average citizen can do about it. The change has to come from the source of the problem. Now there is an idiot in the White House who is encouraging bad behavior by police, as well as white supremacists, and other groups of morons. That's why I moved out of the country.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 8, 2018 - 3:07pm
Steve Bergeron I agree, and think their will always be a few racists around but their influence as a factor that keeps so many generationally poor blacks in poverty, is far below other cultural issues that are totally in their own control.
I do resent the constant guilt the black community leadership applies to the white community in an attempt to shift the blame for their own failures to someone else so they can continue to avoid blaming themselves.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 8, 2018 - 3:16pm
Carole McKee I don't think it's that simple or fair to say our US police forces ignore our laws and discriminate against minorities.  A small portion may, but half the time I hear about something like a shooting, it has been on the heels of a crime.  Whenever anyone of any skin color has a face off with the police, it's dangerous.  The fact that some minority groups have more of those engagements with the police has far more to do with why those minority groups tend to get shot more, it's not the color of their skin.  Yes, people of all colors get shot by the police less if they are not around crimes as often.
In many places minority communities talk out of both sides of their mouths.  On one hand they want crime in their neighborhoods suppressed and scream for police protection, especially where violence is common.  On the other hand members of the same communities scream that they are being targeted if they see police in their neighborhood too often, and very loudly complain every time someone from theri community is arrested or shot by the police.  The police are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
If I were the police I'd post the phone numbers of their anti police leadership for emergencies, and pull the police out.  If the bad guys kill each other it might save taxpayers a lot of money, hopefully with minimal innocent deaths at the same time.
Carole McKee Added Apr 8, 2018 - 3:46pm
Where the police are concerned, I support them when they are right. Most cops are decent people, I know. But you have those few who are not, and their prejudice is clear. The other police who are good cops should not defend them. Brotherhood loyalty should only go so far; and those who cover up senseless killings are breaking the law. And isn't shooting someone supposed to be the last resort?
I understand that most crimes are committed by minorities. My answer to those peoples is simply this: If you want fairness, don't break the law. My opinion is that if you break the law, you have no equal rights, because you just made yourself unequal with the average citizen. And that applies to any color who breaks the law.
But when I see a video where the man is not fighting the police, and has done nothing wrong, but he gets shot and killed by the officer who pulled him over for a broken taillight, I take issue with that. Now that was on video; yet the court let the officer off. The courts are just as guilty as the bad cops.
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 8, 2018 - 6:16pm
I have listed many time that the black ghettos are a creation of the Democratic Party.  FDR created housing regulations and provided funds to build housing that favored segregation of races into neighborhoods.   Concentrate people that obtain a lot of welfare or other free services and you got their votes, cities.  Welfare started by FDR got the votes of blacks that were the first to be laid off. Purposeful act for his first re-election campaign (common practice of both parties).  General white favoritism to hiring whites and was reinforced by Jim Crow laws that existed in the whole country.   
When Jim Crow ended LBJ doubled down on welfare to keep the votes of those city black ghettos.  We are seeing the results of his efforts.  Welfare is focused on keeping people on welfare and to do that the best way is to create single parent house holds.   A side effect is the raise of crime, illiteracy, gangs, and drop in morals.  The youth are now being taught to hate the police and apply the survival tactics of the street gangs.  Street gang tactics is what Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, and the majority of the police conferentation that result in shooting represent.  Again a creation of the Democratic Party some not directly.   
The police training has not addressed street tactics or the dumping of mentally ill into the general population.  The cost of training my guess would skyrocket.  The police find themselves in position that compromise their safety and they as the reviews has shown are justified in shooting. 
Almost a third of the shooting I find myself discussed by the police not taking up positions that provide time and space to talk to the individual and actually have time to identify the item they are holding.  Seconds count when you exposed.  Only the engine of a vehicle or a solid wall is sufficient cover.  Today they need tactics to deal with assassinations which seem also to be slow in coming.
Since many police never use their gun for decades they are taught to empty the gun because the fear factor destroys any ability to aim.  Again more training would solve this problem.   
Street gangs and crime disappear when two parent married house holds provide the role model for boys, since boys by the nature of humans are more aggressive.  Only husbands stick around statistically.  Change welfare rules is needed.   Parent want the best for their children and will take the effort to do that.  The vote with their feet to purchase the best value for their money even welfare money.  The fact that everyone is doing the same thing gives the community expertes.  Education needs to be totally in the hands of parents.  The teachers unions almost exclusively as to other government worker union fund the campaigns of democrats that want to make decision for the citizens.  We need to break the automatic funding of politicians.  Each union member, for all unions and company packs, should individually choose if and how much  a candidate receives, they have a check book for money put a side for promoting good government.    Vouches or other similar means would give parents each year a choice.  As I said the community as a whole make parents experts in where and who provided the best education for their child.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 8, 2018 - 8:13pm
Carole McKee I have a video I wish I could share with you that shows a cop shooting an unarmed man in the back who appears to be cooperating with another cop he is facing about 15 feet away.  It looks horrible and damming, but as I always try and remember the police are often scared and I don't blame them if they overreact.  
In this case the black man who was shot in the back was placing a rifle he had in his hands down at the request of the cop in front of him when he was shot from behind by the cop in back of him.
It wasn't until someone pointed it out to me that I noticed that as the black man put down the rifle, he was simultaneously pulling a pistol out of his clothing.  As the cop and camera man walked up to the now dead black man we could see he still had the pistol in his hand.  The officer  who was behind him had shot him just as he was trying to quick draw and shoot the officer in front of him.
So much for thinking he shouldn't have been shot from what I clearly thought I saw.
On the other hand when I was younger I was abused by bad cops more than once, I know they are out there.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 8, 2018 - 8:16pm
Thomas Sutrina I'll go for vouchers, they save taxpayers money and offer parents better educational choices for their children.  I think it's a win win, parents and taxpayers, and if the private school they choose does a better job, it's also better for our children.
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 8, 2018 - 11:15pm
Rusty S., your story hights what I said, " A side effect [of welfare in ghettos] is the raise of crime, illiteracy, gangs, and drop in morals.  The youth are now being taught to hate the police and apply the survival tactics of the street gangs.  Street gang tactics is what Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, and the majority of the police conferentation that result in shooting represent."  Without attacking multiple points society can not be turned around.  Trump increasing employment in those ghetto area is a start also.   Fathers leave also when they can not provide for a family because they know the state will.  We need to give a value to that father taking responsibility.  We also have to end the situation that taking a job reduces income  Welfare needs to be slowly removed.   
The idea of a negative income tax may be an option.  If an IRS agent's self interest is the slightly higher collecting then expensing welfare then he will work to get people employed.
Recall what Dr. Milton Friedman once wrote, "The bureaucrats spend someone else’s money on someone else. Only human kindness, not the much stronger and more dependable spur of self-interest, assures that they will spend the money in the way most beneficial to (himself then) the recipients. Hence the wastefulness and ineffectiveness of the spending."  If it is going to be wasteful then we need to maximize the benefit.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 9, 2018 - 11:48am
Thomas Sutrina I believe we were better off when charity came from people and organizations like Churches than we are now that our government collects and distributes the money, because the government's motivations are not pure, they are not spending their own money, and they are the most expensive way to distribute money.
When people help friends or give to charitable organizations like churches they closely scrutinize where the money goes, don't like it being given away to people who don't deserve it, or being spend wastefully on administrative costs.
Our government redistribution system wants as much business as possible because that grows their little kingdoms and then they get more money.  They don't want to challenge people who request assistance they want to encourage people who don't' really need it to apply so their thiefdom grows.  Government agencies take a much larger portion of the pie than organizations like churches that aren't cutting themselves in with high wages, benefits to die for and pensions on top of that.
I say get the government out of charity and then most of the slackers who don't really need it will be forced to work, and leave behind more money for the people who really do need it.
Carole McKee Added Apr 9, 2018 - 2:02pm
Thomas: I believe you are right. When I was growing up there was a family who had a lot of kids and even less than what we had. We were by no means well-off. Anyway, one of the kids came up and asked my dad if he could give him a couple of bucks. My dad said, "No, I won't give it to you, but I'll let you earn it. Wash my car and I'll give you $3." Well, the kid walked away. My dad turned to us (we were all younger than that kid) and he said, "There's a kid who never wants to go forward in life."
Rusty Smith Added Apr 10, 2018 - 11:41pm
Carole McKee for several years I worked at a manufacturing company that was close to the freeway and frequently made job offers to people at the off ramp to the freeway, with signs that said "will work for food".  I never had one accept, and I was offering them a bathroom to clean up in, and a day of work paid in cash at the end of the day.  They would ignore me and continue BEGGING for money.  They had no desire or intention to work.  I saw lots of people giving them money.
Carole McKee Added Apr 11, 2018 - 4:44pm
I truly believe that those who would love a chance to work aren't standing around holding signs. They're either out trying to find work or they are hiding, too ashamed of their situation. I've seen those people with the signs. I've offered them food and they refuse it. They want money. 
There was a short, thin black man who used to panhandle the streets in Pittsburgh. He brought me lunch one day, and when I tried to pay him he told me no, that he made way more money than I did.  He had been doing it for 30 years and his wife had no idea he didn't have a job. For Christmas he bought her a mink coat, and she drove a Cadillac. The house was paid for. He said he made between $700 and $1000 a week. This was in the 80's 
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 12, 2018 - 1:17pm
"They want money. "
I tried the same in front of a fast food store but he refused and wanted cash to buy some himself. 
Carole McKee Added Apr 12, 2018 - 6:20pm
It's funny, but I recently moved to Ecuador. I've only been here a short time, but I have not seen one homeless person. These people have a totally different work ethic. If they have a job, they are proud of the job. Very few don't work. I'm managing my brother's hotel, and the employees are the best workers I have ever seen. I have not caught any of them doing nothing. They constantly work, and they will stay late and not expect to be paid extra. When I pay them extra for extra hours, they are really quite surprised, and thrilled.  
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 12, 2018 - 7:02pm
Carole McKee, thank you have put some meat on to my comments.   Basically welfare is a method of continuing slavery, however; the slaves put themselves in chains.  And now the masters have found another group to enslave. 
The question, are we going to let them?  Are we going to let them enslave all of us by attacking the first amendment.  Are we going to stop them from taking away the only meaningful tool that they fear a weapon. 
It is ironic that the crime and thus a need for self defense is actually heightened by the dependence they create.   And then they use the crime they create as a reason to take away guns.  However the criminal doesn't care about the law taking away guns.  And as London has shown taking away guns does not reduce crime and the theat.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 12, 2018 - 7:21pm
Thomas Sutrina I do believe that the social assistance that we've given generationally poor communities has done a better job of entrapping them in poverty than we ever might have done by refusing to help them at all.   
Do gooders and politicians who want their votes like it that way, the only real losers are taxpayers and those poor people who think they don't have what it takes to feed themselves.
Carole McKee Added Apr 12, 2018 - 7:26pm
Thomas, that phrase 'taking away guns' just puzzles me. I can't remember any instance where it was said that anyone wanted to take away guns. Stopping the sale of guns like the AR-15 does not say, in any way, that the law wants to take away guns. 
I totally back the 2nd Amendment, but guns like the Ar-15 have no purpose except to kill people. Only the military and SWAT teams should have them. The NRA backs the 2nd Amendment, but isn't it funny how they don't back the 1st Amendment. 
Thomas, the problem is not enough people will stand up for our rights. The NRA makes noise to protect what they think is their rights, but the rest of the country sits on its ass and lets the rights slowly slip away. I fought against the inequality and for our rights. I got very little backing. Well, I don't want to live in a country where the government slowly strips the citizens of what is rightfully theirs. So I left.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 13, 2018 - 12:34am
Carole McKee it may be that since you aren't easily upset by politicians who say they would like to take away or get rid of all the guns, you don't notice it when they do.  
That is the stated goal of lots of people who had the carnage an think the country, and probably the world would be a much safer place without them.  Most I've debated believe that if the guns weren't there the suicides and homicides where they are used wouldn't happen, or at least the numbers would dive sharply without them.
In a way they are right, kind of like saying without prisons lots less people would die from prison violence.  I can't deny that.  However like with prisons, without guns there would be a new set of problems I'd argue are just as bad to replace them.  The UK is finding that out right now, no guns but knife attacks have risen so dramatically that they have more homicides than NY, oh... but their no longer killing each other with guns.  I bet the dead people don't care if it's a gun, a kitchen knife, or a baseball bat.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 13, 2018 - 12:40am
Carole McKee by the way, AR-15's are not especially deadly, or used by any military I now of in the whole world, they are regular seemi automatic rifles that LOOK almost exactly like the ones our military uses.  That doesn't make them any more deadly than a Ruger Ranch varmint rifle, that shoots the same wimpy bullet.  Yes I did say whimpy bullet, it's half the power of the bullets American soldiers used in WW2.  Adding folding stocks, and pistol grips to a rifle does not make it more deadly.  You might also be surprised to learn that they are hardly the gun of choice for criminals, they were used in less than 2% of the homicides where guns were  used.  If you want to be safe, that's not the place to look or put your efforts, even if they do look scary.  Doing so is like fighting street racing by forbidding people from painting flames on the side of their cars.
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 13, 2018 - 9:51am
Carole, CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED.   And history has shown that government is hard of hearing.  The blast from a gun catches their attention.  Carole Why do you think the NRA is not standing up for their rights.  Their is no requirement that and in fact we already know that people see rights differently.  Your not thinking for yourself by saying >>Thomas, the problem is not enough people will stand up for our rights.>>
Carole I get very tired of hearing this spin that is not based on reality. >>Stopping the sale of guns like the AR-15 does not say, in any way, that the law wants to take away guns. 
I totally back the 2nd Amendment, but guns like the Ar-15 have no purpose except to kill people. Only the military and SWAT teams should have them.>>  
A military weapon that the military have are 'fully automatic'  a light machine gun.  They have a selector for fully automatic.   In the ~1920 fully automatic guns became illegal to sell (actually a tax was used to prevent the sale which is still collected today to transfer any weapon in that class). 
Remove the outer skin of the AR-15 and set is besides a hunting rifle and they are identical.  Automatic guns both pistols and rifle have been around since 1880s.  WWII had still a lot of bolt action rifles for standard troops. America chose an automatic the Grand, gas operated as their standard weapon.  The same approach as the AR-15. 
So Carole every weapon that exist today has been a 'military weapon' and used to kill humans.  Thus that statement is meaningless, a knife is a military weapon.   Today only those restricted for sale to the public should be defined as a military weapon. 
AR-15 will not out perform in bullets firing rate a shot gun or a hunting rifle that are automatics.  People do use them for hunting.
The AR_15 uses a wimpier bullet then at AK 47.  Both Military and hunting rifles use larger grain, weight, bullets for game at or above the weight of humans.  
Fabian Socialism tactic is to take small steps so the slow removal of weapons and devices for guns is just a small step.  And we have records of Democrats saying they want to take all guns.  So the end game is just that.  It is also historically the end game for socialism, Communism is a branch of socialism.  Some of Europe socialist countries have band guns.  
Carole McKee Added Apr 13, 2018 - 11:57am
Anyone who says we want to take all guns is just an irrational fool, whether he be a Democrat, Republican, or whatever. That's just a stupid statement. Listen, I have owned a gun, and I have used a gun. Granted, for target practice only, but I also support the 2nd Amendment. So if you think we should keep the AR-15, what is your suggestion to cut down on killings? I don't think history is important in the case of weapons. When the 2nd Amendment was drawn up, muskets were the weapons used.  
Rusty Smith Added Apr 14, 2018 - 12:45pm
Carole McKee I presume your root cause goal is not getting rid of all the guns, but instead reducing the amount of preventable deaths, based on what you've said.  I'm glad, many people I know do want to get rid of the guns and really don't care about the carnage.
Your just mentioned the AR-15, so I'll go with all Assault Weapons" as a class of weapon.  According to Barbara Boxer who hates them,  they are used in less than 2% of the homicides where guns are used.  Do realize you are targeting a tiny fraction of the carnage when you go after them.
They are very expensive, not concealable, and generally not owned by criminals with exception of wealthy drug cartels, some who got their guns though a failed government program that forced gun dealers to sell them to them, even after the gun dealers reported the suspicious purchase requests and said they wanted to deny the sales.  (fast and furious)
Anti gun statistics are a little hard to digest because the anti gun folks like to make them vague so people like you will be upset.  Saying things like 33,000 people a year die from gunshots is shocking, but truth is 65% are suicides.  Among the deaths where shootings by police.  I'd think if you're trying to show how much carnage is caused by guns, you'd pull police shootings and suicides out, but they don't because it sounds better to them that way.  And yes, they don't even pull out shooting deaths caused by police using Assault Weapons, which all our Swat teams use.  
Now that you realize what a tiny slice of the pie that AR-15 represents, do you really think it's something worth all the news it seems to generate, and a good focus for people who want to reduce preventable deaths. 
I think it distracts people from more productive activities like preventing a much tinier portion of the suicides, which would save many times more lives.
Carole McKee Added Apr 14, 2018 - 4:12pm
Regardless of all those statistics. The Pulse nightclub happened. Las Vegas Happened. The school in Parkland Happened. Columbine happened. Sandy Hook Elementary happened. Children. Do you have kids? How would you feel if you were called to the school because your child was shot and killed? Would it matter to you that the percentage of mass killings is actually only around 2%? 
I know the media exaggerates about things like that, just to make their point. But I focus on the senseless mass killings. Suicides are sad, and I'm sure they didn't use an assault weapon to off themselves. And I know police shootings are increasing. They are forgetting that "to protect and Serve" doesn't mean kill at will.
With any other manufactured product, when unnecessary deaths occur because of it, the product is taken off the market. Nobody complains about that. But any time the gun issue is brought up, the NRA loses its mind.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 14, 2018 - 4:36pm
"With any other manufactured product, when unnecessary deaths occur because of it, the product is taken off the market. "
Like cars, land mines, opium, crystal meth, knives, ..?
NRA supports 2A. Period. 
Carole McKee Added Apr 14, 2018 - 5:15pm
Cars get recalled when there is a problem. Nobody minds that. Opium and crystal meth are not manufactured by companies. Knives serve other purposes. Assault weapons are for one thing only--KILLING.
Yeah, the NRA supports 2A. But they are just so irrational about it. Just say the words, "Gun control laws," and they start screaming "they want to take our guns." Well, if a gun is more important to them than a human life, they need to reevaluate their priorities. 
Many NRA members support Trump, a known liar and bully, and an abuser of women. So apparently sexual assault is acceptable, but don't take their guns. It's okay to pass laws where the rich get richer and the poor pay for it, but don't take their guns. It's okay to kill 23 children for no reason, but don;t take their guns. Sounds pretty sick to me.
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 14, 2018 - 11:14pm
So Carole you self identify as a drone for which fact make no difference.  Your joining a group of people that brought Hitler, Lenin, ISIS and Moe to power, drones.  The people that put them in power didn't care about the harm they called for.  They believed that they would create a democracy but their actions didn't match the words.
They killed millions so Carole you also do not care about people dying because you are willing to put monsters like these in power.  The Democratic party that call for the confiscation of guns.  Antifa destroy property and beat up people.  Check Carole this only happens in Cities with Democratic governments.  Abortions biggest supporter are Democrats.  A holocaust targeting unborn humans.   
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 15, 2018 - 10:51am
"Opium and crystal meth are not manufactured by companies."
This means that we can tolerate these substances? Your assault on the corporate world is very telling. Left wing prattle. 
Carole McKee Added Apr 15, 2018 - 12:19pm
No, Ryck. I don't think they should be tolerated. But I was referring to the manufacturing--not the problem.  Guns are manufactured by companies--opium and crystal meth are processed by some ignorant, greedy person who doesn't care about human life. 
I don't consider myself left or right. Don't insult me. I use common sense, which seems to be short on in government these days.
Thomas, I'm willing to put monsters in power? What do you think Trump is? He's a monster. He's destroying the country. With him, you've got Hitler reincarnated. I am neither a Democrat or a Republican. Both parties are corrupt. And being against mass murder doesn't make me either one. That's the problem with gun lovers. If someone speaks out about assault rifles, they can expect to be called names, labeled, and insulted. Funny how the 2nd Amendment is protected by the NRA, but the 1st Amendment is not allowed.
I'm entitled to an opinion; and my opinion is that children shouldn't be gunned down in school. Now if you have a problem with that, you need some serious help.  
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 15, 2018 - 4:12pm
Carole as a millionaire Trump so he has the money to be a monster.  Please tell me how many people he as paid to be murdered since he is >>Hitler reincarnated>>?  What tyrant did he support that has unmarked graves of his victims.  Tell us his ideology that has in history led to holocaust? Examples Communism has led to them in the USSR, China, Cuba, etc.  How about ideology that supported racism?  Example is South Africa.  How about ideology that supported Islamic states? Example Ottoman Empire and 1914 christian holocaust or Lebanon and the PLO creating a civil war.   And Carole dictators on almost every continent, Trump supporting them?   I am asking for a simple thing to put some meat on the accuquisation that Trump is a monster and i consider murder of scores of humans sufficient.   
Obama, Hillary, Pelosi, Schumer, etc. all support the government funding of Planned Parenthood and attach anyone that opposes that organization.   "WASHINGTON, D.C., January 4, 2016 (target="_blank">LifeSiteNews) – Planned Parenthood performed 323,999 abortions and received $553.7 million from U.S. taxpayers during the 2014-2015 fiscal year, according to its most recent annual report."
Carole I want you to back up your reason for not wanting guns.  That is all I ask.  The injured your feeling response is crap your a big girl and I know have and can take much worse words.  >>That's the problem with gun lovers. If someone speaks out about assault rifles, they can expect to be called names, labeled, and insulted.>>  
As I said an AR-15 is not a military fully automatic assault rifle by the standards of nations.  Military fully automatic guns have been band for import or manufacture and only those already registered are transferable.   So your problem Carole is that you do not know what your talking about.   
Statistics do not back up your claims about an assault rifle.  Hand guns the the weapon of choice in homicides.  Your not banning them because that argument is a looser for decades.   
Third homicide is a factor of the culture not the presence of rifles or hand guns.  Knifes work as well, as the statistic in the Russia and now London vs New York prove. 
Again Carole you belaboring nonsense.  How about using facts, that would be nice for a change.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 15, 2018 - 4:15pm
Carole McKee there are lots of ways kids can die these days and being shot with an assault rifle is one, but it's also one of the smaller risks, even if you limit the field to shootings with guns.
If you could prevent the less than 2% by getting rid of ALL the assault weapons, you'd do less good than you could if you somehow managed to reduce suicides by a meer 10%.   
I think you should quite wasting your time on things that are statistically irrelevant to the average person, and spend more time on things that are far more likely to happen to someone you know, like suicides.
You mentioned kids so I presume you care about saving innocent children's lives so what about private pools?  Do you know far more children die in private pools than from gunshots?  If we lowered the speed limit a little we might save more kids lives.
It's not ok to want to take away things other people like in order to save a few lives, if you are not also willing to make similar sacrifices in your own life to also potentially save lives.  That my dear would be the definition of a hypocrite, if the person calling for the change only wants changes that effect other people.
Of course you might also argue that risks are part of life and if you weren't willing to let your kids be put at risk you'd probably never let them out of the house.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Apr 15, 2018 - 4:17pm
@ Ian. "These people need to be reminded constantly that it was their own people, their tribal overlords who sold them into slavery first to Arab traders then later to European merchants who cut out the Arab middle man."
You must read up more on the root cause of chattel slavery. Slavery was old when Moses was young. "These people" has a similar ring to you people.  
To rusty's point in general. Racism is not so ubiquitous to rap a hand around it and say here is the It is like as the politician revealed of porn. I don't know it , but when I see it I will know it.  In that sense, maybe some Blacks crying out racism as the cause of their sorry ass life-choice is disempowering of Blacks at some levels. However, do not discount the Blacks who truly experience the racism that cannot be seen by others. S/he who feels it knows it.
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 15, 2018 - 4:20pm
Carole  I think children should be shot be a gang member in a drive by shooting in the bed, home, on their front porch, school yard, strapped in a car seat, or in their school.    Those pistols are not legally registered to mostly young black gang members that have a record which means they can not get a gun.  And do not have a carry permit. 
So taking guns away from citizens will not change one drive by gang shooting.  Not one.   Your still babbling nonsense.
Carole McKee Added Apr 15, 2018 - 7:57pm
Thomas: See? There you go! I said the AR-15 and such assault weapons should be banned. And you heard `taking guns away." And if you think children should be shot by a gang member in a drive-by shooting, maybe you'll get lucky and one of yours will get shot. Now where in any of my posts did I say anything about those types of killings? I know how wrong that is. And I never said anything about registered or unregistered guns. Why must your mind go into a frenzy any time someone mentions banning a weapon that is simply used for mass killings? You can keep your pistols, your shotguns, your rifles, and your muskets, if you have any. 
I'm babbling nonsense? How dare you! Well, why not. Just go ahead. Obviously, your guns and your insults are ways you over compensate for your lesser attributes.
Oh, and I did ask you for a suggestion on how to stop mass murders. You didn't answer.
Rusty: Yes, I am aware that children die in other ways, like swimming pools. But I don't think anyone ever installed a pool with the intention of killing kids. Yet, when a maniac buys an assault weapon, he has one intention. To kill. And I'll ask you the same two questions I asked Thomas. If your child was killed in a mass murder, would it make you feel any better if someone reminded you that he is only one of 2% of the population? And, if you don't believe assault weapons should be banned, what is your suggestion for preventing mass murders?
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 16, 2018 - 10:04am
@ Carole you do not get it.  Taking away guns of any type from people that register and purchase them within the law doesn't affect guns obtained on the black market.  Black market gun if the price is high enough will be imported by smugglers or even make.  
As said by many people and you liberals do not understand is that not one death from any ill begotten gun can be prevented by any gun law. 
That is the conclusion for the Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB)—officially, the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, a ten year ban on your 'assault rifles.'   
Wikipedia said, "Studies have shown the ban had little effect in criminal activity. . . . The ban tried to address public concerns about mass shootings by restricting firearms that met the criteria for what it defined as a "semiautomatic assault weapon", as well as magazines that met the criteria for what it defined as a "large capacity ammunition feeding device" . . . Act prohibited the manufacture, transfer, or possession of "semiautomatic assault weapons" . . . The Act also prohibited the transfer and possession of "large capacity ammunition feeding devices" (LCAFDs). An LCAFD was defined as "any magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device manufactured after the date [of the act] that has the capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition". . . . In 2004, a research report commissioned by the National Institute of Justice found that should the ban be renewed, its effects on gun violence would likely be small, and perhaps too small for reliable measurement, because rifles in general, including rifles referred to as "assault rifles" or "assault weapons", are rarely used in gun crimes." 
The reason Carole for (Why must your mind go into a frenzy any time someone mentions banning a weapon that is simply used for mass killings?) is because it doesn't work and your actually destroying one of the pillars of showing government who is the boss.  You know consent of the governed.   No one hopes a civil war will occur.
Carole so long as you back your words with NOTHING  then your just babbling nonsense, and I do dare to bring up the lack of facts!
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 16, 2018 - 10:17am
Carole I have answered your question and that to you do not like.  The society morals and rules that we teach our citizens statistically has a much stronger effect on homicide then anything else.  So you need to face up to the fact that in the last 85 years the Democrat Party has controlled at least one, White House or a house of Congress that can stop change except for 4 years and now Trump's two years.  They have been able to set laws with control of all three for 23 years.  In effect they are responsible for the state of society.  With in cities the Democratic party has controlled the most troubled ones for in most cases for decades.  They are responsible for the ghettos and local societies.    
Here is your answer that I thought i give multiple times at WB, "Oh, and I did ask you for a suggestion on how to stop mass murders. You didn't answer."  Carole mass murder is a fraction of the total murders so I am addressing the real problem of general murder.   Change society by going back to strong morals and ending class system with barriers between them set up by government.  Different classes have different rules as we see in the case of Hillary and Bill Clinton, Congress, and even the town square since teachers and other public unions violate the conflict of interest principle.  
Carole McKee Added Apr 16, 2018 - 1:59pm
In my opinion, if I dare, The biggest barrier is the one where social security is concerned. The government wants to cut social security. Of course they are not affected by that. I think the retirement plan for Congress should be abolished. On what planet are people allowed to retire with a 6-figure retirement pay, paid for by the very citizens who stand a chance of losing their retirement benefits? Congress should be made to pay into social security and then receive social security checks when they retire. Just like the rest of us. The rules should be the same. Yet nobody seems to get upset about that--at least upset enough to do anything about it. I have started petitions to stop that practice, and they go nowhere. 
But I'm done talking about guns. There is no way you will see anyone else's point of view, so there's no sense discussing it. At least I can understand a person's desire to have guns. I just can't understand putting guns over human life--senseless mass killings or individual drive-bys. 
Rusty Smith Added Apr 16, 2018 - 3:58pm
Carole McKee I'm sad whenever innocent people, including children, get hurt or killed but also believe risk is a part of life, including the extremely unlikely possibility that someone I care about might die at school because of a nutcase with an assault rifle.  Then again, unlike you I know exactly foolish it is to worry about threats that tiny when I should be putting my efforts helping them avoid much more likely threats, like the threat of their own suicide which really does kill 30 times more children than assault weapons.  
Carol, mass murders happen, and the tools criminals have to choose from to achieve that end may include guns, but sadly other tools like arson and bombs are not only very easy to get, they are much deadlier on average than guns.  Where you see super scary looking assault rifles, I see the people using them to commit mass murder as a bit foolish, because they could kill more kids with a bucket of gasoline in a crowded classroom than most school shooters manage to kill before they are stopped or kill themselves.  Take away those scary assault weapons and more will use the gasoline option.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 16, 2018 - 4:04pm
Carole McKee you asked what I would do to prevent mass murder, I'd focus on the criminals not the tools or decent citizens who like to use some of the same tools, and I never expect to get the number down to zero as long as anyone can buy a gallon of gasoline.
If you look at maps that show were homicides take place you will quickly notice most of the country is very safe.  The vast majority of homicides take place in very dangerous neighborhoods that have the same laws as nearby neighborhoods that have no homicides.
The problem is violent people, and until you address them you will continue to have murders.  The UK got rid of their guns and their homicide rate is now worse then New York's, where anyone can own a gun.  It's not the guns, its the violent people.
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 16, 2018 - 4:59pm
Carole I would love to have a discussion with you about almost anything.  I accept the your feelings are real.  In a discussion other have feeling also.  Disarming citizens and the use of guns to kill other humans I do not find is a discussion about feeling.   Presenting feeling as an argument in discussion not about feeling is just babbling. 
Do you agree guns and murder is not a discussion about feeling?
Carole McKee Added Apr 16, 2018 - 6:15pm
I guess it depends how you look at it. Every time I hear of a mass murder, I sit in front of the TV and cry. I cried when the bomb went off at the Boston Marathon. I still cry over Sandy Hook. Can you imagine losing a child? I know what it's like. The pain never goes away, and there is always a hole in your heart. Unfortunately, you can't eliminate bombs since the criminals make them in their own home from materials anyone can buy. You can't question everyone who buys nails. But you can question a person who is buying something as specific as an assault weapon. I agree that the person doing the killing should be looked at, rather than the tool he used, but how do you do that? 
Laws have to be changed. As it stands, the laws are on the side of the criminal's rights. That's needs to shift. It seems to me that the NRA should want to get the rest of the population on their side by working with lawmakers to eliminate the crazies who do the shootings. Right now, as it stands, it's the people versus the NRA because the NRA will back the guns rather than stand up against mass murder. 
Believe me, I don't want to see people lose the right to own guns, but some people should not have them. And yes, there should be more focus on mental health. But again, people with mental problems are protected by laws like HIPPAA.  
Rusty Smith Added Apr 16, 2018 - 7:54pm
Carole McKee I lost a brother to medical oversight and I and my family didn't sue, we know stuff happens.  My mom almost died from gross medical negligence in a good hospital, we didn't sue over that either.  Medical mistakes are avoidable and stuff happens.  Medical mistakes kill more people than guns, but I can't make doctors perfect or force lazy nurses to follow procedures.  Like you I am bothered by the un-necessary deaths but unlike you I don't think crying or screaming about it is going to make much difference.
Gun Laws are not on the sid of the criminals, they are irrelevant to them and ignored by them; there is a huge difference.  In many parts of the US you can be in a super dangerous neighborhood, drive a mile and be in a completely safe one, where the gun laws, accessibility to guns, and everything but the people is the same.  The problem is not the guns, it's the people.  Focusing on guns feels good but doesn't help.  Change the people and you can really help reduce the carnage.
Carole McKee Added Apr 17, 2018 - 11:59am
Rusty, I wasn't referring to gun laws when I said the laws are on the side of the criminals. It's the rights that I was referring to. It seems a criminal has the advantage. With so much worry about his rights, what about the person he murdered? He's dead, so therefore, has no rights.
I am in total agreement with you concerning changing the people. But if a person is known to be unbalanced or mentally disturbed, letting him buy a gun when the outcome is inevitable, is just stupid. Would you give a drunk person your car keys? I wouldn't.
Now I worked in mental health. People with mental problems can hide it very well when they want to; but there are certain 'tells' that stand out.
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 17, 2018 - 12:55pm
So let me see Carole who determines if a person has a metal problem?  The states like Florida I believe is one of a few that have laws that require a judge, allow for a trial, and require a yearly review.  I do not think the NRA opposed those laws.  I do not recall them opposing the Florida law.   And the bureaucrats failed to use the law on Cruz when the indications were overwhelming.  The political goals of appearance trumped the safety of citizens.  Not the only time that happens.
What the NRA opposed is that the veterans administration bureaucrat can put a person on the list preventing him from purchasing a gun.  The social security administration bureaucrat can put a person my age on the list if someone else pays his or her bills.   These regulation thank God drew so much criticism that they failed to go into law.
Carole not judge or jury or review was involved in that decision.  Not recourse in effect was provided for.  The same thing happened for being on the no fly list and we have heard the errors they make and the hassal and months of effort needed to reverse them. 
Carole history has shown that what may be good decision to restrict guns at the beginning of a program such as the VA or SS will expand over time and become a political tool to achieve a political objective.  We have heard Democrat politicians slip and tell us the end game, taking away all guns in spite of the second amendment protections.    
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:01pm
Carole please explain why you are fixated on mass shooting?  They represent a very tiny part of the total shooting and homicides.   Your acting as a political drone.  Chicago in a month has more deaths then the high school.  And that is every month now for years.  Other cities have high gun murder rates.   Add drug deaths the mass shooting are insignificant in the statistics.  I think deaths from drunk drives far exceed mass shooting deaths.  
So tell us why you have the heart pull for mass shooting and nothing for the vast majority of preventable deaths?  We want to know!
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:23pm
" Chicago in a month has more deaths then the high school."
Narrow issue syndrome challenged.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Apr 17, 2018 - 3:49pm
The Smith and Thomas ganging up on Carole is likened to having a Smith and Wesson at her head.
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 17, 2018 - 4:54pm
Dr R., I have been commenting on the narrow focus of Carole for a dozen or more comments mostly by myself.  I said I am concerned even with feeling about all those that are murdered all along.  
My wife went to the third anniversary of a second ? cousin fund raiser.  The 22 that broke up with a head of a gang and was in prison didn't like it so he called for her assassination.  When the drive by shooter missed and she and a boy that were walking together hid the shooter got out of the car walked up to her and assassinated her.  Got back in the car and they drove off.   
I have feeling also.  But feeling do not address the problem.  The hand gun was illegal in the hands of a likely criminal that illegally had the gun and was not registered to have any gun.  So tell me what law would have prevented this assassination.   That Dr R. G., and Carole is the point. 
Creating laws that only increase the potential harm to citizens is worse then nothing.   The criminals will have illegal guns or knifes or bombs etc.  The only preventive solution in this or most situations is someone defending the right of the citizen not a policeman that arrives after the fact.  That is the second reason for the second amendment. 
Feeling I understand is going to funerals and unless it makes sense that will actually reduce their number then I am not for it.  Carole does banning assault like, outer shape, for a common semiautomatic rifle help the church members in Texas.  The first responder was a citizen with that type of rifle?   Are you going to let more people die in that church?   This is a mass shooting where an 'assault rife ended the carnage. 
Carole McKee Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:17pm
Thomas: The states like Florida I believe is one of a few that have laws that require a judge, allow for a trial, and require a yearly review.  I do not think the NRA opposed those laws. You seem to be fixated on the that I am blaming the NRA for everything. That's just not true. But that law where there has to be a trial is just nonsense. I should think that a psychiatrist has enough schooling and practice to determine whether a person is mentally ill. One psychiatrist and two second and third opinions should be enough. The government decision to undermine a professional who has put in years of schooling is just ridiculous.
We have heard Democrat politicians slip and tell us the end game, taking away all guns in spite of the second amendment protections. When you say Democrats, are you referring to anybody in particular? Or is Democrat a term used for people who don't like guns? I seem to recall that you referred to me as a Democrat. And was that statement actually made, or was it something that was put into people's head? Is it a collective thought, or was the statement made by someone who puts his mouth in motion before he puts his mid in gear?
I am not fixated on mass shootings. I care about all killings. I just mention them the most because these are the people with mental problems who bought an assault weapon.
Carole McKee Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:32pm
Oh, did I forget to say how sad I am when I hear of a driveby shooting? I am very sad. I cry with the mother who is sobbing over then death of her child. And I also am affected by train wrecks and terrible accidents where there are fatalities. 
Oh, and I have a narrow focus? I care bout all senseless deaths. You are the one with a narrow focus. Any time there is mention of guns and gun control, your brain immediately goes to, "THEY WANT TO TAKE OUR GUNS AWAY." No matter what anyone says, that's what you hear. 
I have said that I don't want people to lose the right to have guns. I have said that mass killings and drive by shooting are both senseless. I have also said that there should be some mental health law concerning guns. Those are three different focuses. Your only focus is statistics and the right to have guns. When someone loses a child because of a shooting, it doesn't matter what the percentage is.  Don't you get that? 
Carole McKee Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:37pm
The first responder was a citizen with that type of rifle?   Are you going to let more people die in that church?   This is a mass shooting where an 'assault rife ended the carnage. This was one time an assault rifle was used to save lives. One time. What would the percentage be for that one time? 
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 18, 2018 - 9:13am
Carole I do agree that a >>I should think that a psychiatrist has enough schooling and practice to determine whether a person is mentally ill.>>  The reason of the trial is to prevent creep of by the government into political denial of a gun.  I suspect you do not watch Fox.  I remember them having video of elected Democrat politicians slip and tell us the end game.  And we only need to look at other socialist countries in general or any government where non-elected people make laws or regulation etc.  They all restrict gun ownership to the point of basically total denial.   The monarchs of Europe took weapons away from citizens through out their histories spanning centuries for example.
Carole the media doesn't show prevented killing as the result of citizens with a gun taking action.  The vast majority of the time just the pointing of a gun at the criminal stops them.  Some group interviewed people in prison.  Criminals do not want to get shot and make choices to limit the possibility.  Mass shooters are exceptions but then again they are also a very small portion of the murders.  
Carole McKee Added Apr 18, 2018 - 3:49pm
I believe the reason for the 2nd Amendment was because they weren't allowed to have guns in England. You have to understand that I'm not against guns or the NRA. It's just that hysterical frenzy they get when someone mentions guns.
Basically, I don't trust the media, Fox or otherwise. They are almost as corrupt as our government. I was always told the the media's job is to report the news in an unbiased manner, but that's not the way it is anymore. 
And you're right about criminals, but the people who do these mass shootings aren't your average criminal. They are mentally ill. Many are sociopaths who have no regard for human life, including their own. Criminals at least care about their own life. Criminals are cowards, as a rule. I don't know how to stop these types of murders. I suppose if everyone would start living right, with a strong sense of right from wrong, strong ethics, and morals, eventually needless murders can be stopped. But you can't legislate that.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 18, 2018 - 6:08pm
Carole McKee you're on the right track about the second amendment but it's not just what happened in Europe that influenced our founders, they saw that happen here too.  The British tried to disarm the citizenry here too as they tried to enforce the will of their monarchy on us.  
Our founders knew that the only reason we were free is because our citizens were able to stay armed enough to resist England's soldiers.  Our citizens were no equal to their professional army, but they proved so to be so dangerous that England was forced to withdraw or continue suffering humiliating harassment from citizen groups who didn't want them here.
Carole McKee Added Apr 18, 2018 - 6:28pm
Well, yeah, when the colonies were still under British rule they tried. Now we know they had good reason for it. If there weren't guns in the arms of citizens, we'd still be British. That I understand. But that's a far cry from killing innocent victims. And now, we have an army. 
I realize that some people would like to see all guns banned. I'm not one of them. But what scares me are these groups who have come forward again like the KKK and the Nazis. It's only a matter of time before they start shooting people just for being Jewish or Black, or any other ethnic group they are against. Especially since they have Trump in their corner. He encourages violence. Any time there is a peaceful protest march, they could very well come and start shooting people. 
Rusty Smith Added Apr 19, 2018 - 11:15am
Carole McKee every now and then people who are associated with hate groups do murder people, but it's rare.  Perhaps less than one for every million people. 
If half the households in the US own guns, I think it's outrageous to propose restrictions on them so that we can attempt to influence the one in a million who behaves stupidly.  
The UK statistics seem to show no correlation between guns and violent crime.  They took all of them away from the public and violent crime was totally unaffected.  Recently it got so bad there without guns that they passed NY with guns for the number of homicides.
I know people like to blame guns, but as long as there are other tools readily available, criminals will not be reformed, they will just use other weapons like knives, arson and bombs.  Incidentally that is also true about suicides, many people use guns, but when the guns were taken away in the UK, the suicide rate didn't change.
It's not the guns, it's the culture
Carole McKee Added Apr 19, 2018 - 1:52pm
I agree that it's the culture. But why feed the culture if there is a way to cut down on the crimes? I realize it would not cut down on criminals slaying people. You say if there were no guns, there would still be the same amount of killings. May, maybe not. It takes a lot more courage to walk up and stab someone, and I' ve never heard of drive-by stabbings. Bombs? Yes, they could still make them, but not everyone knows how.
I'm not even thinking about the men and women who own guns for hunting and target practice. I'm thinking about gang members who shoot just because they have a gun and a grudge. I wouldn't even put those two groups on the same category.
I don't want to see guns taken away from the former group, but the latter? If they get caught for killing and end up in prison, and if they get out of prison, they are not allowed to own a gun. I guess they just get them illegally. I guess there is just no way of stopping them.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 22, 2018 - 12:08pm
Carole McKee thee is no maybe about it, when guns were taken away in the UK the frequency of violent crime did not change, criminals just switched to other weapons, just like people who wanted to commit suicide did.  Maybe suggests that didn't happen, and it did.
I had personally expected a change if for no other reason than as you said stabbing someone is more risky than shooting them, so I thought smaller criminals might stop once they lost the advantage of a gun.  I'm sure that happened but at the same time larger criminals found it easier to victimize smaller victims who they could now counted on to be disarmed, which simultaneously probably increased violent crimes at the same time in that category.
I suspect the demographics of who is victimized did change a little when guns were removed, but the overall violent crime rate was uneffected.  
Thomas Sutrina Added Apr 22, 2018 - 12:45pm
The reason NRA membership is growing throughout Obama's term and gun ownership is obvious even to you Carole.  You said, "Basically, I don't trust the media, Fox or otherwise. They are almost as corrupt as our government."   Corrupt is the whole point of not giving government the power to take away guns.  Corrupt is the reason we have the second Amendment.  Corrupt is the reason the Declaration of Independence define that government to exist needs the CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED.   It is the reason for all ten Amendments.  The colonies that were independent nations after the Revolution demanded them as a condition of creating the United States. 
Carole McKee Added Apr 22, 2018 - 3:40pm
Yeah, and it's a shame that the government no longer requires the consent of the governed to pass legislation. Did you consent to them retiring with a 6-figure lifetime income? I didn't. Yet that's what happened. And they want to cut social security.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 24, 2018 - 10:48am
Thomas Sutrina Americans are always inspired to run out and buy more guns when new gun control legislation looks like it might be implemented and Obama's administration inspired many buying surges.
Unintended consequences have become more influential in the world of guns than our laws.  Even well meaning laws often backfire like California's rules regarding gun sales.  Today all private sales must go through a licensed dealer, and that costs money and is not easy to do where licensed dealers are hard to find, or hard for the old folks to get to with their guns.  As a result there has been a flood of guns into the black market from people who simply want to keep all the money, and or can't get their guns to a licensed dealer.  Grandma can't exactly take her dead husband's guns on a bus, can she!
Rusty Smith Added Apr 24, 2018 - 10:50am
Carole McKee I think politicians would fix a lot of problems if they were required to be treated just like we are.  Fancy pensions, heck no, make them get the same SS we get.  The same with medical care, no more, no less than what they give the public they SERVE.
Carole McKee Added Apr 24, 2018 - 12:08pm
Rusty: I agree. What I question is why are the citizens putting up with this? When I formed a petition to try to stop those perks, it was like pulling teeth to get anyone to sign it. It's almost people were afraid to sign. I have to assume that, because I can't imagine anyone thinking those perks are okay. 
And like Thomas pointed out, the government passes laws and never consider the consequences of those laws. How they will affect people, or what will be the alternative people will turn to to get around the law. I think the U.S. needs a new government.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 24, 2018 - 12:23pm
"And like Thomas pointed out, the government passes laws and never consider the consequences of those laws."
But, do they not realize how such laws benefit them in their own constituencies? Power is money and  they need to refresh their power bases between elections. 
Our politicos and bureaucrats have cozy jobs and do not want to lose them over minor elements like  bad laws, debt, crime, corruption and sleaze. 
Carole McKee Added Apr 24, 2018 - 12:27pm
Ryck: Our politicos and bureaucrats have cozy jobs and do not want to lose them over minor elements like  bad laws, debt, crime, corruption and sleaze. Which is what they all are guilty of, and why they should lose their jobs.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 24, 2018 - 12:49pm
How do we kick them out? By replacing them with others of their kind? If we banned all GOP votes for a decade giving the left exclusive power then could be expect something different?
I think not. 
Democracy failed for Athens and has failed many times since. Our turn may be next. 
Carole McKee Added Apr 24, 2018 - 2:05pm
Yes. We need to change the system, and change the people. Republicans and Democrats alike are corrupt, greedy, and selfish. They all need to be eliminated. The government we have it not working.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 24, 2018 - 6:22pm
I would volunteer for dictator but my slogan is: "I will not be fair but I will be swift. "
I don't even trust meself. 
Carole McKee Added Apr 24, 2018 - 7:26pm
HA-HA. Yeah, and maybe I could be queen.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Apr 25, 2018 - 10:28am
We both could win!
Carole McKee Added Apr 25, 2018 - 11:42am
I guess I'd have to come back to the States.