Oklahoma Teachers Walkout....I Completely Support Them.

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Today marks the second week of the teachers in Oklahoma walking out.

 

It isn't about their pay, the legislature passed a bill in the last week of March giving them and their support staff pay raises.  The governor duly signed the bill and it will start on July 1st, the beginning of the new fiscal year.  Incidentally, I also received a pay raise, part of the deal was that state employees received step raises that start on July 1st.  

 

No, this is about the sad state of education funding in general.  None of the concerns of schools and districts were addressed, in fact, a hotel/motel tax that focused on this issue was repealed at the same time.  So, the raise is a bandaid, the underlying wound remains untreated.  

 

So, what caused this mess?

 

Essentially Oklahoma started cutting taxes like crazy, along with poor revenue management.  

 

In the mid-1990's the highest tax rates were lowered but a trigger was left in place, if revenues dropped then the tax rate would rise to match.  This was very simple solution, it provided tax cuts but only as long as revenues remained stable.  While this was somewhat counterintuitive, best to have higher taxes during boom times to build a surplus during lean times so that taxes could be cut, no one complained because needed services were provided, education remained funded and everyone was happy.

 

Unfortunately the legislature took out the trigger so that when revenues started to decline in 2003 tax rates failed to match.  This was still OK, the economy remained in good shape due to booming oil prices.  The problem started when oil prices started to decline.  Added to this was the move made to lower the oil and gas production tax from 7% to 2%, one of the lowest of not the lowest in the country.  To top it off, triggers added by the legislature automatically pushed through tax cuts at the worst possible time.

 

Not only did education suffer but statewide services suffered.  Daycare and services to the elderly, children and disabled left vulnerable Oklahomans without a needed safety net.  State troopers faced  cuts to the point of mileage limits.

 

Oklahoma is not the only state to face this, for example Kansas drastically cut taxes only to find themselves scrambling for ways to fund needed services, along with Indiana, Missouri and Mississippi.

 

This brings us back to Oklahoma.  I realize this is a hardship for children and parents, my wife stays home so it is not an extra burden on us.  This is not true for other families, luckily many area YMCA's stepped up to provide free daycare and so have many of the local churches.  But to continue in this way is not feasible.  It is dangerously short-sided, these children need a proper education in order to compete in the modern world.  They cannot get a proper education by learning from out-of-date textbooks in crumbling buildings.  They cannot learn while shivering in dark rooms or while broiling in the heat.  They need to know that adults actually care about them by properly funding education.

 

So, I say let them stay out as long as they need.  One of my friends is a teacher, he went out on a broken foot all last week to demonstrate at the capitol.  I was proud to see many of his students join him, even better, the Oklahoma Democratic Party went out to support these teachers and students.  They set up booths to register citizens to vote and are supporting teachers and others who want to run for local and state offices.  The sad thing is that many of these state legislature politicians run unopposed, once this came to light people began lining up to run against them.  I want them to win, local, state and federal.  It's time to end the failed experiment that is hurting our future.

 

Comments

James Travil Added Apr 9, 2018 - 6:36pm
I support them as well. But things like this will continue around the country until people decide to put their children before their coddling and worship of the rich through irresponsible tax cuts it's really as simple as that. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 9, 2018 - 6:37pm
I agree, James.  It’s ridiculous to make children suffer (along with others) to make the donors happy.
Autumn Cote Added Apr 9, 2018 - 8:00pm
Please note, the more you comment on the work of others, the more likely people read your articles and provide feedback to you.  Also, the more likely I publicize your work to a larger audience, in my once a week marketing email.  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 9, 2018 - 8:15pm
Autumn, I comment like crazy.  I just haven’t had as much time today.
Autumn Cote Added Apr 9, 2018 - 8:43pm
The last time you offered a comment on someone else's work was nearly 48 hours ago.  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 9, 2018 - 8:59pm
I comment a great deal, Autumn.  Even on authors I don't agree with.
Autumn Cote Added Apr 9, 2018 - 9:02pm
The last comment you wrote on someone else's work was nearly 48 hours ago.  That's not frequent enough to be in compliance with the stated rules.  You can look at my comment history, there are very few authors I have to speak to this way.  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 9, 2018 - 9:04pm
I find this ridiculous, Autumn.  Look at my comment history.
Cynthia Rouse Added Apr 9, 2018 - 9:13pm
I agree with this writer's concern about the State of public education. They've become very much a 'have and have not' institution with schools in wealthy and tax rich States, like Virginia, providing a first rate public education and poorer states like WVA, KY or OK. basically warehousing kids for seven hours a day. The burden on teachers is far too high. Many of these kids get their only decent meal at school. The teachers pay from their own pockets for supplies. It's sad. These districts that are plagued with problems and poor outcomes they really should look at the equal protection clause in Education because these kids are being failed, left behind and grossly under served. Our kids, the future work force of America deserve better and the Nation needs a well educated work force. It is necessary for the continued success of our businesses and industry; and it is a moral obligation WE have to our young citizens and the next generation.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 9, 2018 - 9:23pm
Very well said.
Flying Junior Added Apr 10, 2018 - 4:01am
That hurts my heart to hear that this is happening.  Somehow I believe that in the long run Oklahoma will be okay.  If those dummies hadn't destroyed their tax base, they could have fired all of the teachers and just hired second-rate substitutes.  I don't doubt that they wish they could today.
 
Hopefully many Oklahomans will soon see how unsupportable it is to merely cut taxes without any thought as to possible consequences.  You guys might just turn blue sooner than does your Friendly Neighbor to the South.
 
Did you ever hear of a man that went by the name of Rocky Frisco?
 
He was a damn good musician.  He played with J.J. Kale and countless others.  I met him at the London Gatwick Airport.  Fifteen years ago when Rocky tried to make a name for himself by running for political office in Tulsa, he was on solid ground fighting liberal Oklahomans and pushing the conservative agenda.
 
He was a wonderful man.  He was into building custom motorized bikes.  He owned several Mini-Coopers which he raced competitively.  He loved that little car!  Fun guy.  Professional musician and a family man.
 
I don't think any other Tulsa guy in his shoes today would go to the republican dark side.
Autumn Cote Added Apr 10, 2018 - 5:00am
In my opinion, the only reason any of you are here is because people not in your social network provide feedback on what you have to say.  It's a symbiotic relationship, meaning we all need to be continuously be providing comments on articles we didn't author.  
Flying Junior Added Apr 10, 2018 - 5:30am
Autumn,
 
I"m trying to comment less because I can't afford the emotional distress and utter waste of time of crossing swords needlessly. 
 
I take politics entirely too seriously.  That was not true two years ago.
 
But that will indeed be the day when I am warned about not commenting enough.  I am the only troll...
 
It seems to me that if Jeffrey Kelley commented less than 48 hours ago, that should be good enough.  Wait for forty-nine hours.  He is caring enough to engage Tom Purcell.  He has commented on non-political posts by said author without prejudice.  I find it difficult to take Tom seriously.  But as long as he is a good sport, I don't mind talking to him.
 
Surely Jeffrey is not the worst offender in this respect.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 10, 2018 - 7:40am
Thanks, FJ for both comments.  I commented yesterday on a couple of posts and will try and comment more.
Autumn Cote Added Apr 10, 2018 - 8:06am
The last qualifying comment by Jeffrey was made on April 7th at 11:53pm.  That’s 56 hours ago and counting.  If either of you can identify a qualifying comment made more recently than that, than I owe Jeffrey a major apology.  As for Flying Junior, you’re a model user of this site and I will shortly promote your latest submission.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 10, 2018 - 8:30am
Autumn, I will endeavor to comment more.  However, if you look back further you will see that I was very active in commenting on many articles.  I’ve been a little busy and then I wrote my article so naturally I wouldn’t comment during that time.
 
I also just said that I will comment more.
George N Romey Added Apr 10, 2018 - 9:09am
It’s just another sign that our government’s priorities have nothing to do with the overall welfare of its citizens. When someone calls for a bomb to be dropped no one ever questions the expenditures. 
Dino Manalis Added Apr 10, 2018 - 9:17am
Public schools should be funded with state revenues, including teacher salaries and pensions, because property taxes discriminate against poor school districts.  We have to invest in our children and teachers, like parents, have to prepare children for life!
Tom C. Purcell Added Apr 10, 2018 - 12:01pm
Came on to check out the piece on OK teachers, and add my support.  I agree with the OK teachers and Jeffrey. 
 
Then sure enough, I see my name in the comments on this one too.  LOL...  Autumn is onto something with Jeffrey, as the vast majority of his comments have typically been antagonistic towards me, especially on my 'no-no' articles.  ;)
 
P.S. Flying Jewnior, you might want to try and shed that thin skin.  If you want to be a Shabbos goy serpent for Israel then act like a real snake and toughen up.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 10, 2018 - 12:18pm
There, see, Tom, I don’t just write about Nazis.  Thank you for adding your support, it is appreciated.
Even A Broken Clock Added Apr 10, 2018 - 1:53pm
Jeffrey, from the West Virginia poster, here's a "Tag, you're it" post. I'm glad that what started in our state has spread to other locations where education has been continually slighted in order to give bigger tax relief to the corporations and high income individuals of our states. Did you see that the Kentucky governor sent their budget back to ground zero, on account it was too generous to teachers and workers, and penalized the rich too much? I think that we need to come up with a name for this disease that has afflicted much of the country. Maybe Randpox?
 
PS - I also try to comment regularly, but there are also times when I am not as active. I always try to make sure to make comments one or two hours before I post to this account as a way to ensure that I don't run afoul of Autumn's limits as I did once before. We had a disagreement that ended up in clarifying some of the guidelines, and I haven't had a problem since.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 10, 2018 - 2:14pm
Thanks, EABC.
 
I needed to comment the day I posted, I just didn’t think about.
 
It does irk me that the multitude of comments I made previous to my posting doesn’t count.  I comment but I am busy.  From now on before I post something I will wander through and post comments to people’s articles.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Apr 10, 2018 - 6:59pm
I don't know the American school system, if and where funds are missing. Just saying that Kelly is commenting a lot. FJ has a thick skin (we really don't have many libs on WB, those who stick are tougher than the crowd). Tom's name still comes up in a lot of comment sections. Our little star. But on the internet in 2018 he hardly is unique with his Jew stuff. WB is neither. The anti-Jew garbage is now everywhere.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 10, 2018 - 7:14pm
Benjamin, there are no funds missing.  The Republicans in charge hacked and slashed everything to the bone.
 
I think it’s part of the Republican need to blow up public education so they can keep people stupid.  That way they’ll continue to vote Republican.
Tom C. Purcell Added Apr 10, 2018 - 7:18pm
Don't lump me in with all things anti-Semitic.  That's not how my approach works.  It's about the truth, foremost.  I wasn't born with anti-Khazar sentiments, nor did I wake up one morning and decide Israel is a convenient scapegoat.  I follow truth and that's all.  I don't put every Cohenstein in the crosshairs - it's not his fault for being born "Jewish".  I'm only concerned with the ones that adversely impact the sanctity and prosperity of my people, the ones that put so much of the world at risk for their greedy and forceful occupation of the Holy Land. 
Katharine Otto Added Apr 10, 2018 - 8:27pm
Jeffrey,
I can't speak for Oklahoma, but where I live money meant for education is wasted on building buildings, excessive administration, testing, regulations, and pet projects.  The state lottery, meant for education, goes for grants to middle-class college scholarships.  A special local-option sales tax for education has gone to back municipal bonds to build a slew of new schools on acres of land.  Most of property taxes and 51% of the state budget goes to education, supposedly, but because of mis-management and friendly favors to special friends, it gets parceled out to special programs and other high-overhead, low-yield endeavors.
 
I suspect in Oklahoma, as in Georgia, the educational system does not lack the money, but it lacks a good set of priorities.  The teachers are on the front lines, and their hands are often tied to absentee bosses who know little about education but call the shots and control the checks.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 10, 2018 - 8:48pm
@Katherine Otto:
 
Katherine, I have no idea about Georgia but the reality is that this state legislature mismanaged tax cuts and other revenue measures.  As a consequence education and other services suffered.
 
It’s intolerable, much of this occurred to cut the taxes of the richest Oklahomans who send their children to private schools.  This includes oil company and other rich executives who don’t feel any of the pain of ordinary Oklahomans.  It includes cuts in the well production taxes that were already among the lowest in the nation.
 
I don’t hate the rich, I want them to pay their fair share.  The same with oil companies who took advantage of a sweet deal....but are now behind raising the well taxes because they also live here.
 
I spoke to a teacher today, many educators are lining up to run for office. Good.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 10, 2018 - 8:49pm
@Tom Purcell:
Dude, you are an antisemite.  Don’t be ashamed, it’s what you are.
Pardero Added Apr 10, 2018 - 10:14pm
Jeffrey Kelly,
I am not there, so I don't know. It so happens that I have seen the same things as Katharine Otto. 
Incredible waste. Top heavy administration. Ridiculous ratio of admin to teachers.
New schools every few years. Many years ago, I worked construction at a school building being converted to business offices. 
I just helped a friend that lives in a former school turned into an apartment building.
Enough is enough. People are hurting. People living in squalor are paying for Cadillac insurance and pensions when they have nothing themselves. People actually move, to get away from exhorbitant property and school taxes. 
You claim to care about the children, but what about the poor slobs trying to keep a roof over the children's heads?
My mother taught most of her adult life. She gave a damn. I'm sure you do, too. She had former students that stayed in contact up to the day she died. For some of them, she had provided basic school supplies.
I hope you can understand, that we hear the same sad story from the more typical country club schools and all the suffering, etc. They buy the most expensive land in town every few years for a new school. But every kid has an Apple notebook.
The message falls on jaded ears.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 10, 2018 - 10:27pm
There is waste in everything, Pardero.  I get it.
 
But schools in Oklahoma have leaks in the roof, crumbling walls, have to keep the temperature at 57 during the winter and 80 in the Summer.  Is there some top heaviness?  Sure.  But I already explained that the state government repeatedly mismanaged the tax rate and revenues.  It isn’t just problems with education, all services faced cuts in the last five years.  
 
Enough is enough.  
Pardero Added Apr 10, 2018 - 10:28pm
Jeffrey Kelly,
I will say this, years ago, Washington State passed a referendum to lower auto license fees. Those fees helped support  water and sewage operations in small rural towns. The loss of those funds, crippled the little towns.
I was there, and worked on the budget. There wasn't enough money to make ends meet. I donated 20 to 30 hours a week, as did the city council, because there was only me and the clerk.
We couldn't afford it, but had to hire a grant writer for needed repairs and compliance issues.
I know the salary could not be so low as mine was, but if you truly face a similar dire straits, in the other respects, you would certainly have my sympathy.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 10, 2018 - 11:01pm
Thank you.  
 
There are always consequences to any action, Pardero.
A. Jones Added Apr 10, 2018 - 11:38pm
No, this is about the sad state of education funding in general.
Total K-12 funding at the local, state, and federal level (inclusive) has never been higher than it is today. Funding has done nothing but increase since the 1970s, yet academic accomplishment as measured by test scores in reading, mathematics, and science, have remained static: no major changes, up or down for 40 years.
 
Conclusion: Academic accomplishment in the public schools (that is, the student's acquisition of a supposedly "quality education") shows no correlation with how much money government pours into it.
 
See this chart:
 
https://imgur.com/a/6d16u
Public School Funding vs. Academic Test Scores (1970-2010)
A. Jones Added Apr 10, 2018 - 11:58pm
 in wealthy and tax rich States, like Virginia, providing a first rate public education
 
Overall educational ranking (K-12 and higher education):
 
Virginia ranks 12th (K-12 and higher education), behind Maine and Montana, both of which are much poorer than Virginia.
 
California — a much richer state than Virginia, with extremely high taxes — ranks 26th, (44th for K-12), far behind Virginia.
 
See:

Education rankings by state
 
The left obsesses over money (which is probably the main psychological reason they hate the wealthy). They really believe that almost any social problem can be solved by raising taxes and throwing money at it.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 12:13am
Actually, A. Jones, this isn’t just about pouring money right and left into education or hating the rich.  It’s about crumbling schools, no heat when it’s cold, textbooks that are 30 years old.  It’s about services to the elderly, children and disabled getting cut.
 
See, graphs and statistics are nice but reality is often a cold bitch.  The teachers got their raises, what concerns them now is giving their kids a decent place to learn with the proper tools to learn with.
A. Jones Added Apr 11, 2018 - 5:01am
this isn’t just about pouring money right and left into education or hating the rich.
 
I see. It isn't just about those things, but it is a part of it. You're willing to admit that obsessing over money as both the "root of all evil" (if held in private hands) and the "root of all good" (if spent by government on public goods) — as well as hating people in the private sector who make more money than you do — is at least a part of it.
 
You might be in denial, but at least you're honestly in denial. Frankness (even if vicious) is just so refreshing to hear from a lefty.
 
graphs and statistics are nice but reality is often a cold bitch.
 
Yep. And the graph I posted above was the coldest bitch of all if you took 10 seconds to understand it; obviously you didn't. Fine. I'll explain it to you:
 
In the 40 years from 1970 to 2010, no amount of money spent on public education achieved the goal of improving the education of K-12 students. Their self-esteem rose and their sexual promiscuity soared, but their literacy, numeracy, and knowledge of science remained static during those 40 years despite a 200% increase in public funding from local, state, and federal governments. Those are the cold, hard facts.
 
We conclude the following:
 
No amount of new gymnasia; no amount of gold-plated desks and fancy Eames chairs; no amount of sparkling, new chemistry labs, new computers, or next year's textbooks has shown any correlation with improved education in K-12 public school students. 
 
New textbooks? For basic math skills? You mean, some graduates of Teachers College have discovered that there's something new about addition and subtraction that no one hitherto was aware of, and instead of using old, classic, standard textbooks, the state, city, or local school board has to come up with the money to buy entirely new textbooks (written by Teachers College graduates, of course) just so that some imbeciles in Oklahoma can say, "Look! Isn't this fine! We have new textbooks on addition and subtraction that say exactly the same thing as your great-grandmother's textbook on addition and subtraction. Now some REAL learning is going to take place! Hallelujah!" Um, the textbook industry by academics — especially in K-12 where students are learning SIMPLE, BASIC, SKILLS — is simply a racket; a gravy train for the authors; a way of sucking up public money by claiming "You guys simply MUST buy our product! You won't have REAL education without it!". Science is a different issue since empirical knowledge is constantly changing; but a basic skill like addition, reading comprehension, writing? Bull. I don't even think teachers ought to use "textbooks" for those subjects, but rather, should create their own notes and exercises for the students. Problem: most K-12 public teachers are members of the NEA teacher's union and are quite frankly incapable of creating such exercises since they don't know the material themselves; they rely on the textbooks even more than the students do.
 
Now, instead of responding to the cold hard facts in the graph I posted above, you evaded the whole issue of education and funding by hauling in a laundry list of other services you believe ought to be provided exclusively by government: day-care, mass transit, "services to the elderly" (whatever that means); "services to the young" (whatever that means); and last but not least, no doubt: "services to everyone else between young and old."
 
So basically, you want "services" of an unspecified nature (the more, the better) for literally everyone, all of it paid for by taxes, and all of it offered for as close to free as possible to the public.
 
Here's how to solve the public education funding problem:
 
1) Break the teachers' union. It cares nothing about the students (the recent walkout in Oklahoma was an obvious, "Fuck you, kids! We're out for ourselves!"). Like all unions, everywhere, they are anti-innovation and thus, anti-progress.
 
2) Provide easy, fast means of accreditation for any person or group that wants to start a private school. "Public education" is a protected market. You want higher quality education and downward-trending prices for students? Privatize.
 
You have to reorient your thinking on this issue (as well as several others, no doubt) and move out of the 1930s, Great-Depression-era, New Deal approach to assessing social problems and solving them.
 
Try it. It's a maturing experience.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 10:30am
@A. Jones:
”You're willing to admit that obsessing over money as both the "root of all evil" (if held in private hands)”
 
Where, exactly, did I say that?

“and the "root of all good" (if spent by government on public goods)”
 
Actually, no. What I am saying that instead of building useless walls we use government funds to benefit citizens. So, spending money on education is a good thing, spending money on things that stroke Thud’s ego is a bad thing.
 
I have no objection to border control, fixing dilapidated fence lines, using drones, putting feet on the ground, that sort of thing. But building something that will cost billions that can be tunneled under or cut makes no sense to me. It’s a static defense line that someone will figure out how to defeat.
 
“— as well as hating people in the private sector who make more money than you do — is at least a part of it.”
 
Where, exactly, did I say I hated people in the private sector who make more money than I do?
 
What I want is for them to pay their share, not cut their taxes because they are major donors.
 
I like money. I have no objection to capitalism.
 
I cut out the next part because it is irrelevant.
 
“And the graph I posted above was the coldest bitch of all if you took 10 seconds to understand it; obviously you didn't.”
 
Wow. That’s an ASSumption on your part. A wrong one, as it turns out but whatever.
 
“Fine. I'll explain it to you:”
 
You have my full attention.
 
“In the 40 years from 1970 to 2010, no amount of money spent on public education achieved the goal of improving the education of K-12 students.”
 
Uh-huh.
“Their self-esteem rose”
 
How wonderful for them.
 
“and their sexual promiscuity soared,”
 
I think it’s gone down recently, kids aren’t bonking as much as they used to.
 
“but their literacy, numeracy, and knowledge of science remained static during those 40 years despite a 200% increase in public funding from local, state, and federal governments. Those are the cold, hard facts.”
 
I actually found studies that say otherwise, I’ll post them when I get a chance. I’m going to be busy today.
 
“We conclude the following:
 
No amount of new gymnasia; no amount of gold-plated desks and fancy Eames chairs; no amount of sparkling, new chemistry labs, new computers, or next year's textbooks has shown any correlation with improved education in K-12 public school students.”
 
The teachers in Oklahoma don’t want gold-plated desks. What they want is someone to provide the money to fix the dilapidated buildings, provide enough funding so they can turn the heat up and the AC down, get new textbooks to replace the ones that are falling apart, etc., etc.
 
“New textbooks? For basic math skills? You mean, some graduates of Teachers College have discovered that there's something new about addition and subtraction that no one hitherto was aware of, and instead of using old, classic, standard textbooks, the state, city, or local school board has to come up with the money to buy entirely new textbooks (written by Teachers College graduates, of course) just so that some imbeciles in Oklahoma can say, "Look! Isn't this fine! We have new textbooks on addition and subtraction that say exactly the same thing as your great-grandmother's textbook on addition and subtraction. Now some REAL learning is going to take place! Hallelujah!" Um, the textbook industry by academics — especially in K-12 where students are learning SIMPLE, BASIC, SKILLS — is simply a racket; a gravy train for the authors; a way of sucking up public money by claiming "You guys simply MUST buy our product! You won't have REAL education without it!".
 
Well, it doesn’t matter if the info is new or not, the school districts are forced to use and reuse textbooks that are falling apart and missing pages. You can’t teach from a book that is missing pages and falls apart in the hands of the kid trying to learn from it.
 
“Science is a different issue since empirical knowledge is constantly changing; but a basic skill like addition, reading comprehension, writing? Bull. I don't even think teachers ought to use "textbooks" for those subjects, but rather, should create their own notes and exercises for the students. Problem: most K-12 public teachers are members of the NEA teacher's union and are quite frankly incapable of creating such exercises since they don't know the material themselves; they rely on the textbooks even more than the students do.”
 
Ah, so, to ad
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 10:31am
Damnit, my comment got cut off.  I worked really hard on that.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 10:43am
Well, we’ll just skip down:
 
“Here's how to solve the public education funding problem:”
 
Oh, goody.  This should be good.

“1) Break the teachers' union. It cares nothing about the students (the recent walkout in Oklahoma was an obvious, "Fuck you, kids! We're out for ourselves!"). Like all unions, everywhere, they are anti-innovation and thus, anti-progress.”
 
Absolutely, let’s break them.  We’ll arrest and execute the leaders and toss the followers into concentration camps.  That way they’ll learn their place.  How dare they want better wages and working conditions????????
 
The authoritarian instincts are strong with right-wing loonies.
 
They got their raise, dumbass.  It’s no longer about that, they want better working conditions for them and a better learning environment for the children.

“2) Provide easy, fast means of accreditation for any person or group that wants to start a private school. "Public education" is a protected market. You want higher quality education and downward-trending prices for students? Privatize.”
 
So, are these schools free to any student that wants to attend?  See, that’s nice, like a charity.  I’m sure that these private institutions will open their doors to all students and not make them pay a dime.  That’s a good idea, now I’m sure there will be some cost to the parent in all of this but that’s normal.  The only thing the parent will need to buy are clothes and school supplies like a public school.  Undoubtedly there will be some fundraising but public schools already do that.
 
It’s a good idea.

“You have to reorient your thinking on this issue”
 
I’m sure.
 
“(as well as several others, no doubt)”
 
No doubt.
 
“and move out of the 1930s, Great-Depression-era, New Deal approach to assessing social problems and solving them.”
 
I’ll get right on that.

“Try it.”
 
You know, on second thought this week and next week look bad.  Maybe I’ll get some time the week after.  Or a few weeks after that.  
 
“It's a maturing experience.”
 
I’m sure it is.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 12:44pm
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 12:46pm
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 12:50pm
It’s more about how money is spent than just throwing money at a solution......but the first step is actually spending the money.
Even A Broken Clock Added Apr 11, 2018 - 12:53pm
Jeffry, you'll never win a battle with A. Jones. He keeps throwing more and more bovine feces back in your face with any logical argument you make. He'd only be happy if all public expenditures were halted so he could retain all that he's entitled to through his extensive efforts.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 1:01pm
I have infinite amounts of patience, EABC.  Remember, I debate Tom Purcell.
 
:)
A. Jones Added Apr 11, 2018 - 7:04pm
Where, exactly, did I say that?
 
You clearly implied it by writing, "this isn’t just about pouring money right and left into education or hating the rich."
 
The "just" = "I admit it but there's more to it than that." You can't possibly be that stupid that you don't understand what the "just" implies in that sentence.
 
Of course, maybe you are that stupid. It's dangerous to assume things about those on the left.
 
What I am saying that instead of building useless walls we use government funds to benefit citizens.
 
By "useless walls", I assume you're talking about the border wall between the U.S. and Mexico? Whether or not such a wall is useful or not (like most walls in history, it probably won't achieve its intended result), what does a federally border wall have to do with state funded and locally funded public education? Nothing.
 
I know it's difficult for knee-jerk lefties like you who swagger into every room and website crying, "But I have the moral high ground! I KNOW what the 'proper' things are for public monies to be spent on!" to focus on ONE ISSUE, but do try.
 
So, spending money on education is a good thing
 
That doesn't mean spending yet more money specifically on public schools is a good thing. "More money for public schools" ≠ "better education". The graphical data I posted above shows that.
 
Get over it.
 
But building something that will cost billions that can be tunneled under or cut makes no sense to me. It’s a static defense line that someone will figure out how to defeat.
 
DrudgeReport already posted photos of people piggy-backing on top of one another so that the top person can simply climb over the fence.
 
Um, what does this have to do with Oklahoma's tax cuts or that state's public school system? Nothing. Try to focus. I know it's hard for knee-jerk lefties since you're angry in general that the world doesn't work the way you want it to work in every possible granular detail. But do try to focus.
 
Where, exactly, did I say I hated people in the private sector who make more money than I do?
 
You clearly implied it by writing, "this isn’t just about pouring money right and left into education or hating the rich."
 
The "just" = "I admit it but there's more to it than that." You can't possibly be that stupid that you don't understand what the "just" implies in that sentence. Then, again, maybe you are.
 
What I want is for them to pay their share, not cut their taxes because they are major donors.
 
According to IRS data, "the rich" pay the majority part of all taxes. Look it up. The top 10% of earners pay close to 71% of all taxes.
 
I’ll post them when I get a chance.
 
You're bullshitting us. Post them now, not when you feel like it. There are no studies of national test scores showing improvement in American public school students since the 1970s in reading, mathematics, and science.
 
Nice try, though.
 
What they want is someone to provide the money to fix the dilapidated buildings
 
Why are the buildings "dilapidated"? Because prior increases went into 1) teacher pensions, 2) hiring of educational administrators (school psychologist, guidance counselors, vice principals, assistant vice principals, deputy assistant vice principals, and lots of other bureaucrats who have no connection with the actual process of teaching students anything). That's the typical result of a publicly mandated monopoly on a good or service. The NYC subway system has the same problem as the OK public school system: "The tunnels and track need major repairs [all of a sudden? Really?] because of years of neglect." Years of neglect? Why were tunnels and tracks neglected despite years of nothing but fare increases? Where did the additional revenue go? Um, can you say, "unions"?
 
It's always the case with public goods and services that prices will only increase (postage stamps have never gone done in price, only up, despite no improvement in mail delivery by USPS), services will degrade, and cries will ensue by the bureaucrats and unions in control that "It's not our fault! It's no one's fault (except possibly George W. Bush's, but then again, everything is his fault, remember?). We need more money!"
 
Public schools are no different.
 
Well, it doesn’t matter if the info is new or not, the school district
A. Jones Added Apr 11, 2018 - 7:06pm
The authoritarian instincts are strong with right-wing loonies.
 
Dummy, it's the state-protected NEA that is authoritarian, not people trying to work around it by offering alternatives. The NEA has stood in the way of every possible innovation in education: from home schooling, to charter schools, to vouchers, etc. Anything that lets parents have a choice regarding their children's education has been hamstrung by the teachers' union, and for good reason: most parents, as well as most students, are fully aware of the mediocre job unionized public school teachers are doing, and the teachers are aware that parents and students know this. State monopolized public schools and teachers' unions are nothing more than ways of protecting one's turf from competition. That's about it.
 
The way to break the teacher's union is by giving parents and students lots of options in the Education Market they can choose from in lieu of public schools. The way to break the teachers' union is to make it irrelevant.
 
You don't know much about unions, it appears. No surprise there.
 
So, are these schools free to any student that wants to attend?
 
Public schools aren't "free" to any student that wants to attend. Um, ever hear the word "taxes"? No? Get a life.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 8:07pm
A. Jones, looks like one of your comments duplicated.  I deleted the duplicate.
Tom C. Purcell Added Apr 11, 2018 - 8:18pm
"I have infinite amounts of patience, EABC.  Remember, I debate Tom Purcell."
 
I can't help but grin at that one.  Your typical claim to notoriety is an online association with me - the one you said "nobody gives a shit about"?  And in your boastful comment, supplant "infinite amounts of patience" with "70 years of propaganda" and you'll be more accurate than usual.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 8:43pm
I’m kidding, Tom.  You and I both know you generally pout and run off.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 8:46pm
@A. Jones:
”Where, exactly, did I say that?
 
You clearly implied it by writing, "this isn’t just about pouring money right and left into education or hating the rich."
 
So, you ASSumed you knew my motivation behind that statement.
 
I can see I’ll have to add a:
SARCASM ALERT
for Mr. Jones. That was a sarcastic remark, Mr. Jones. I see the “A” means “ASSume,” as in a personal statement about yourself. I’ll keep that in mind going forward.
 
BTW, I’m slicing out bits of your statement. You need to learn less is more, you are boring the shit out of me with this long-winded crap.
 
“The "just" = "I admit it but there's more to it than that." You can't possibly be that stupid that you don't understand what the "just" implies in that sentence.”
 
You really are too stupid to figure out a sarcastic statement. But, you are a right-wing nut job so I’ll keep it in mind.
 
>>>snip<<<

“By "useless walls", I assume you're talking about the border wall between the U.S. and Mexico?”
 
Yup.
 
“Whether or not such a wall is useful or not (like most walls in history, it probably won't achieve its intended result), what does a federally border wall have to do with state funded and locally funded public education? Nothing.”
 
I like to use that as an example of the right wanting to spend money on the wrong things. But it is good to see you don’t drink the wall Koolaid.
 
“I know it's difficult for knee-jerk lefties like you who swagger into every room and website crying, "But I have the moral high ground! I KNOW what the 'proper' things are for public monies to be spent on!" to focus on ONE ISSUE, but do try.”
 
I like to branch out and spice things up a bit.

“That doesn't mean spending yet more money specifically on public schools is a good thing. "More money for public schools" ≠ "better education". The graphical data I posted above shows that.”
 
The info I posted says it does. What it’s about is spending money properly, not throwing money at a solution in hopes of fixing it. Oklahoma is essentially starting at the ground floor and needs to catch up. It starts by allocating money to the infrastructure that deteriorated so badly, bringing salaries up to attract good teachers and retaining the good ones you have. Then you evaluate where you need to spend money next.
 
I’m separating this statement, FFS you drone on and on.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 9:22pm
Cont...
”But building something that will cost billions that can be tunneled under or cut makes no sense to me. It’s a static defense line that someone will figure out how to defeat.

DrudgeReport already posted photos of people piggy-backing on top of one another so that the top person can simply climb over the fence.”
 
I haven’t seen that, I’ll look it up.

“Um, what does this have to do with Oklahoma's tax cuts or that state's public school system?”
 
As stated, I like to use it as an example.  
 
“Nothing. Try to focus.”
 
You have my full attention.
I wonder what’s on Netflix.....
 
“I know it's hard for knee-jerk lefties since you're angry in general that the world doesn't work the way you want it to work in every possible granular detail. But do try to focus.”
 
I’m actually a rather happy fellow but that’s neither here nor there.

“Where, exactly, did I say I hated people in the private sector who make more money than I do?

You clearly implied it by writing, "this isn’t just about pouring money right and left into education or hating the rich."

The "just" = "I admit it but there's more to it than that." You can't possibly be that stupid that you don't understand what the "just" implies in that sentence. Then, again, maybe you are.”
 
See, this is where the whole SARCASM ALERT thing would be useful.
Just to reiterate, no, I don’t hate rich people.  I just want them to pay their share.

“What I want is for them to pay their share, not cut their taxes because they are major donors.

According to IRS data, "the rich" pay the majority part of all taxes. Look it up. The top 10% of earners pay close to 71% of all taxes.”
 
Not so for Oklahoma.  Tax cuts benefitted the richest Oklahomans while increasing the burden on the middle and lower classes.

“I’ll post them when I get a chance.

You're bullshitting us. Post them now, not when you feel like it.”
 
I did.
 
“Nice try, though.”
 
Thanks.  I hope you enjoyed reading it.

“What they want is someone to provide the money to fix the dilapidated buildings

Why are the buildings "dilapidated?”
 
Because of cuts in spending that didn’t keep up.
 
“Because prior increases went into 1) teacher pensions, 2) hiring of educational administrators (school psychologist, guidance counselors, vice principals, assistant vice principals, deputy assistant vice principals, and lots of other bureaucrats who have no connection with the actual process of teaching students anything).”
 
That’s nice, did you come up with that on your own?  Too bad it’s not true.  Oklahoma has slashed the education budget steadily since 2008.
 
“That's the typical result of a publicly mandated monopoly on a good or service. The NYC subway system has the same problem as the OK public school system: "The tunnels and track need major repairs [all of a sudden? Really?] because of years of neglect." Years of neglect? Why were tunnels and tracks neglected despite years of nothing but fare increases? Where did the additional revenue go? Um, can you say, "unions"?”
 
Um, can you say tax cuts that affected education?  Coz that’s what happened.


Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 9:23pm
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 9:36pm
@A. Jones:
”Dummy,”
 
That’s really unimaginative.  
 
“(Yawn inducing drone about unions and such)

“The way to break the teacher's union is by giving parents and students lots of options in the Education Market they can choose from in lieu of public schools. The way to break the teachers' union is to make it irrelevant.”
 
So, who provides these options?  The free market?  The free market only operates where it can generate a profit.  What about rural communities or inner cities?  Oklahoma is made up of many rural communities, how do we insure that they have the options to choose?  Or will they only be given certain options?  Or one?  Who pays for it?
The same holds true for inner city kids, including large minority communities.  How is that going to work?

“You don't know much about unions, it appears. No surprise there.”
 
I know that unions were instrumental in getting better working conditions and pay.  I know that at least they give workers a voice and leverage.  I guess to you that’s a terrible thing, how dare people below the station of employers and owners have a voice of their own.
 
“So, are these schools free to any student that wants to attend?

Public schools aren't "free" to any student that wants to attend. Um, ever hear the word "taxes"? No? Get a life.”
 
LOL, so, are we going to sign contracts to get private schools to replace public schools and pay them with.....taxes????????
 
Doesn’t that defeat the point?
 
Look ASSume Jones, you only offered one part of the equation.  Private industry only offers services for a price.  Someone has to pay, so who do you propose pays for the capitalist paradise where parents are offered their choice of private educators?
A. Jones Added Apr 11, 2018 - 9:54pm
So, you ASSumed you knew my motivation behind that statement.
 
I assumed nothing about your motivation; motivation has nothing to do with what appears as text, both in its explicit meaning and its implicit meaning. I know nothing of your motivation or the mysterious purple fog swirling in your brain. I hewed strictly to the meaning of what you wrote, not your motivation for having written it.
 
Because of cuts in spending that didn’t keep up.
 
Cut spending and privatize. Problem solved.
 
That’s nice, did you come up with that on your own?
 
No. That's been the trend in revenue increases to public education since 1970, as well as the main driver of those increases.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 10:12pm
@A Jones:
“I assumed nothing about your motivation; motivation has nothing to do with what appears as text, both in its explicit meaning and its implicit meaning.”
 
You said:
”The left obsesses over money (which is probably the main psychological reason they hate the wealthy). They really believe that almost any social problem can be solved by raising taxes and throwing money at it.”
 
I said:

“Actually, A. Jones, this isn’t just about pouring money right and left into education or hating the rich. It’s about crumbling schools, no heat when it’s cold, textbooks that are 30 years old. It’s about services to the elderly, children and disabled getting cut.”
 
I answered you in a flippant manner.  You thought I was being serious.  I see now that I need to put in a:
SARCASM ALERT
For you because you apparently lack the ability to figure it out on your own.

“Because of cuts in spending that didn’t keep up.

Cut spending and privatize. Problem solved.”
 
I’ll repeat my comment:
 
”So, who provides these options? The free market? The free market only operates where it can generate a profit. What about rural communities or inner cities? Oklahoma is made up of many rural communities, how do we insure that they have the options to choose? Or will they only be given certain options? Or one? Who pays for it?
The same holds true for inner city kids, including large minority communities. How is that going to work?
 
 
And:

“So, are these schools free to any student that wants to attend?
 
Public schools aren't "free" to any student that wants to attend. Um, ever hear the word "taxes"? No? Get a life.”

LOL, so, are we going to sign contracts to get private schools to replace public schools and pay them with.....taxes????????

Doesn’t that defeat the point?

Look ASSume Jones, you only offered one part of the equation. Private industry only offers services for a price. Someone has to pay, so who do you propose pays for the capitalist paradise where parents are offered their choice of private educators?


“That’s nice, did you come up with that on your own?

No. That's been the trend in revenue increases to public education since 1970, as well as the main driver of those increases.”
 
Bullshit.  As I explained, in Oklahoma it came from a decline in state revenues caused by irresponsible tax cuts.  I even posted a story about it.
A. Jones Added Apr 11, 2018 - 10:48pm
Oklahomans making six figures pay lion's share of federal taxes, IRS figures show
 
"In Oklahoma, for instance, people who made over $100,000 paid 74 percent of all federal income taxes due in the state in 2012 — the latest year for which detailed Internal Revenue Service figures are available for states.
 
People who made between $10,000 and $50,000 accounted for half of all Oklahomans who filed a federal tax return in 2012, and they accounted for 8 percent of the federal income taxes."
A. Jones Added Apr 11, 2018 - 10:50pm
The free market? The free market only operates where it can generate a profit.
 
Wrong. Online "Khan Academy", for example, is free, and is a product of the free market.
 
The "free market" is mainly about innovation.
A. Jones Added Apr 11, 2018 - 10:51pm
I even posted a story about it.
 
But the story was just that: a story. It did nothing but repeat the nonsense you spouted.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 10:58pm
Focus, A. Jones.  We are talking about state, not federal taxes.  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 11:01pm
State taxes pay for state education and those were lowered in 2015 (signed in 2013):
http://m.newsok.com/article/3809635
 
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 11, 2018 - 11:03pm
LOL:
”But the story was just that: a story. It did nothing but repeat the nonsense you spouted.”
 
It’s a story because it doesn’t fit A. Jones mindset.
A. Jones Added Apr 12, 2018 - 12:11am
It’s a story because it doesn’t fit A. Jones mindset.
 
You're lazy. Do some homework.
 
See following:
 
https://www.edchoice.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Back-to-the-Staffing-Surge-by-Ben-Scafidi.pdf
 
"Back to the Staffing Surge: The Great Teacher Salary Stagnation and the Decades-Long Employment Growth in American Public Schools"
 
From the Executive Summary of the above study:
 
"The Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice—now EdChoice —showed that American public schools had been on a six-decade staffing surge. That is, between 1950 and 2009, public schools added school personnel at a rate that far exceeded the increases needed to keep up with student enrollment growth. This staffing surge was documented using publicly available data that state departments of education annually report to the US Department of Education, where each public school employee was placed into one of two categories—teachers and all other staff. “All other staff” includes district and school administrators, teacher aides, counselors, social workers, reading and math coaches, janitors, bus drivers, cafeteria workers, curriculum specialists, etc.
 
From fiscal year (FY) 1950 to FY 2015, the earliest and most recent years with available data, American public schools added full-time equivalent (FTE) personnel at a rate almost four times that of student enrollment growth. These additional personnel were disproportionately non-teachers. While the number of FTE teachers increased almost two and a half times as fast as the increase in students—resulting in significantly smaller class sizes—the number of non-teachers or “all other staff” increased more than seven times the increase in students."
 
* * *
 
Most of the increases in public-school spending for the past 40 years have gone to "all other staff" -- administrators, aides, counselors, social workers, etc. — not teachers.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 12, 2018 - 12:34am
Wow, it’s amazing.
 
A. Jones, what you posted is irrelevant.  I already showed you, Oklahoma cut education funding.  You persist in posting all of this national average crap that doesn’t look at Oklahoma specifically.  Oklahoma cut education funding while lowering taxes.  It’s idiotic.
 
If you want to discuss national education averages, go write a fucking article about it.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 12, 2018 - 12:36am
Wow, I glanced at your link.  No, that’s not partisan at all.
 
SARCASM ALERT
A. Jones Added Apr 12, 2018 - 3:41am
No, that’s not partisan at all.
 
<snark>It's as free of "partisanship" as teachers' unions like the NEA and the AFT</snark>
 
And speaking of links, where's the link you promised us above purporting to show an improvement in test scores? ("I actually found studies that say otherwise, I’ll post them when I get a chance. I’m going to be busy today.").
 
Your dog ate it, I suppose, right? Figures.
 
We're still waiting. But in case you're wondering, we'll all be very patient with your obvious signs of senility. 
A. Jones Added Apr 12, 2018 - 4:35am
"OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — The Latest on a walkout by Oklahoma teachers seeking more funding education funding from the Legislature (all times local): 2:40 p.m.
The head of Oklahoma’s largest teachers’ union says if lawmakers want to end a teacher walkout, they must pass a repeal of the capital gains tax exemption . . ."
 
Don’t you just love unions and their support of democracy?
 
The capital gains tax exemption was passed by a majority vote of Oklahomans in 2004. This is known as the result of the democratic process, i.e., a vote.
 
Now, a small percentage of the state’s population — public school teachers — demand that the result of a popular vote be repealed or else they’ll withhold their teaching services from their students.
 
So much for unions’ support of the democratic process.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 12, 2018 - 7:28am
@ A Jones:
 "


"No, that’s not partisan at all.
 
<snark>It's as free of "partisanship" as teachers' unions like the NEA and the AFT</snark> "
 
They want to do exactly what you want, Jones.  Not exactly an impartial source.
 
"And speaking of links, where's the link you promised us above purporting to show an improvement in test scores? ("I actually found studies that say otherwise, I’ll post them when I get a chance. I’m going to be busy today.")."
 
 I already posted them.  Scroll up the comment chain.
 
"Your dog ate it, I suppose, right? Figures."
 
 Uh, no.
 
"We're still waiting. But in case you're wondering, we'll all be very patient with your obvious signs of senility."
 
 
 Did you lose your reading glasses, grandpa grunt?  Scroll up.






"A. Jones Added Apr 12, 2018 - 4:35am







"OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — The Latest on a walkout by Oklahoma teachers seeking more funding education funding from the Legislature (all times local): 2:40 p.m.
target="_blank">The head of Oklahoma’s largest teachers’ union says if lawmakers want to end a teacher walkout, they must pass a repeal of the capital gains tax exemption . . ."
 
Don’t you just love unions and their support of democracy?
 
The capital gains tax exemption was passed by a majority vote of Oklahomans in 2004. This is known as the result of the democratic process, i.e., a vote.
 
Now, a small percentage of the state’s population — public school teachers — demand that the result of a popular vote be repealed or else they’ll withhold their teaching services from their students.
 
So much for unions’ support of the democratic process. "
 
 
This is the one thing I disagree with them about.

Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 12, 2018 - 8:52pm
Oklahoma teachers ended their strike today.
A. Jones Added Apr 12, 2018 - 10:27pm
Scroll up.  
  
I've scrolled up and down. No links to studies showing nationwide test score improvements in reading, math, and science over the past decades.
 
You're senile.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 13, 2018 - 1:30am
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 13, 2018 - 1:33am
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 13, 2018 - 1:40am
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 13, 2018 - 1:41am
The key takeaway isn’t tossing money at a problem, it’s proper spending.
 
Besides, like I said, the Oklahoma teachers are going back.  It’s over.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Apr 15, 2018 - 4:03pm
"I agree with this writer's concern about the State of public education. They've become very much a 'have and have not' institution with schools in wealthy and tax rich States, like Virginia, providing a first rate public education and poorer states like WVA, KY or OK.
 
Are those red state teachers? It does not bode well for Republicans to have their teachers not being paid enough to enable them to provide students with meals.
Rusty Smith Added Apr 15, 2018 - 4:26pm
The unions don't care about the kids, they only care about keeping their membership up.  Every year they come up with more and more demands for more and more pay and benefits, without regard for what they might be doing for their members job security or the kids educations.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 15, 2018 - 6:41pm
Rusty, the teachers got their raises.  It wasn’t about that anymore.  No, it was about the piss-poor funding they received.
 
On a happy note, all the teachers I know learned their lesson and have gone blue.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 15, 2018 - 6:42pm
Dr. Green, all the states you list above are red states.
John Minehan Added Apr 15, 2018 - 8:41pm
I think the US Educational System has big problems.
 
The biggest things we seem to lack are: 1) a decent system of vocational education; and 2) local (city, town and village) politicians who seize the issue.
 
I worked on a campaign for the Mayor of Albany, NY where the candidate was an IT consultant who was originally from the South Bronx.
 
He thought that the Mayor should hold an ex officio seat of the Board of Education since the City financed the District and the Assessor could tell the District how much blood was potentially in the stone, which you need to plan both basic services and the capital budget.
 
He also thought that Vo-Tech Ed could mean things like getting kids who had the interest and drive certified as Microsoft Network Administrators before they got out of high school.
 
The candidate lost (and subsequently died suddenly) but these ideas should be pursued.
 
I will be contrarian, but I think Bryan Caplan raises many good points in The Case Against Education
 
But the solution is in coming up with better and cheaper alternatives not simply reducing taxes.   
John Minehan Added Apr 15, 2018 - 8:58pm
"2) Provide easy, fast means of accreditation for any person or group that wants to start a private school. "Public education" is a protected market. You want higher quality education and downward-trending prices for students? Privatize."
 
What do you think of Charter Schools?
 
It's not quite "privatization" (more like groups of parents being allowed to use local tax money to run their own schools, sometimes using private education companies and sometimes not) but it has had some success in NYS, especially in places like NYC.
 
The issues with it seems to be QC . . .  . 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 15, 2018 - 9:00pm
Very good points, John.  Particularly with Vo-Tech Ed, not all kids want to attend college or are college material.
John Minehan Added Apr 15, 2018 - 9:21pm
"The free market? The free market only operates where it can generate a profit.
 
Wrong. Online "Khan Academy", for example, is free, and is a product of the free market.
 
The 'free market' is mainly about innovation."
 
I think a more accurate phrase might be "it's the product of the private sector and effective education is NOT limited to government owned providers."
 
The Khan Academy is a private not-for-profit, a type of entity that is usually not considered but has a role to play. 
John Minehan Added Apr 15, 2018 - 9:25pm
"The key takeaway isn’t tossing money at a problem, it’s proper spending."
 
But part of budgeting is knowing what you have to spend.
 
Cities and districts need to be on common survey on what the value of the property inventory is and how much you can levy per thousand.  That drives both the operating and the capital budget as it lets you know how much debt you can service.
 
That's why local government really needs a seat at the table.
John Minehan Added Apr 15, 2018 - 9:32pm
"Oklahoma cut education funding while lowering taxes.  It’s idiotic."
 
Is it purely a state-funded system?
 
I get Dino's view of this and it has real merit.  But I also see some value in local government knowing how much it has to spend and districts planning accordingly . . . if that actually happens.
 
You could cut spending, reduce taxes AND improve quality IF you figure out a better way to organize the system.  Of course, that is the hard part . . . . 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 15, 2018 - 9:39pm
I think Charter schools are a good idea for kids with special needs or who can’t handle public schools.
 
My take is this:
No, the answer is not throwing good money after bad at education.  The key is providing the schools with proper tools like updated books and computers.  Also, spending money on the infrastructure, i.e., buildings, labs, etc.  Another key is extracurricular activities like sports, band, drama, speech, things that aren’t strictly necessary but make learning and school fun, not just places to sit all day buried in books.
 
You are right, this needs to be tailored for each district.  Some districts are wealthier and can cover themselves but even there are pockets that need help.  Some more rural or inner city need more help.
 
I don’t object to privatization but the key is always going to be “who pays?”  Even non-profits need money from somewhere.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 15, 2018 - 9:41pm
It’s state and local funding.
John Minehan Added Apr 15, 2018 - 10:15pm
"I don’t object to privatization but the key is always going to be “who pays?”  Even non-profits need money from somewhere."
 
Big point.  the problems the Edison Project had in Hartford CT is one that didn't work and one we can learn from.  There is not much profit margin in City Schools in the Rust Belt.  If it can work, the standard educational model needs to change.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 16, 2018 - 9:14pm
Agreed, John.  Funding always has to come from somewhere.