Why?

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Thomas Napers wrote this on my last article:

 

"Either you’re the dumbest person I know or a masochist, probably both.  There is no reason to spend any time trying to educate a Holocaust denialist.  I mean, it’s not like there is a convincing argument that will change their opinion.  The more time you waste the more enjoyment they get out of their anti-Semitism."

 

It's a fair point. 

 

I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person and whether or not I'm a masochist is none of anyone's damn business.  ;)

 

So, why?  Maybe it will help if I explain.  In the end it doesn't really matter, I'll continue to write what I want, read it or not.  If I help someone with what I write, good.  If not, so what?  We all write about our interests, what interests you may not interest me.

 

So, personal history first then we'll talk about why.

 

First of all, let me get this out of the way.  I have no personal connection to anyone who died during the Holocaust.  My heritage is Irish-Catholic though I no longer attend church.  I'm not religious though I have no issues with people that are.  I really don't care, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Wiccan, whatever.  Issues of "My God is bigger than your God" hold no meaning with me, I've come to the opinion that if God exists he/she/it is looking at us wondering WTF happened and maybe dinosaurs weren't so bad after all.

 

My passion, however, is history.  I remember pulling out my older brother and sister's world history books and reading them at the tender age of 11.   I read William Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" at the age of 12.  My reading habits branched out, I became a fantasy junkie after reading "The Hobbit" at around 7 or 8.  So, from a rather early age I read both, usually switching off from fantasy to history and back again.  At the University of Oklahoma I majored in Journalism but I took so many history courses that my exasperated advisor made me double major in History.  So, for what it's worth, I have a dual major in History and Journalism .  My current job has nothing to do with either major so I'm officially an educated idiot.

 

This brings us back around to history.  My interest continued after graduation, eventually focusing on European history.  I enjoy military history (ironic for a liberal, I know) so I read a lot about European military history.  Reading about WW II naturally led into studying about the Holocaust.  I read Yitzak Arad's book on the Operation Reinhard Camp's back at the university and read Saul Friedlander's "Years of Extermination" some time after that.  I read Christopher Browning's book "Origins of the Final Solution" at about the same time.  I watched Laurence Rees' documentary on Auschwitz on Netflix and read the companion book on it .  It spurred my interest so I started looking around on-line to learn more.  It was during this time that I first read about Holocaust denial.

 

It popped up while I was reading some general article on the Holocaust.  It surprised me, I had no idea such a thing existed.  I started reading more about it, visiting certain sites, blogs and forums.  The implications floored me, was it possible that everything I knew was wrong?  Was it all a hoax?  So, I examined many of the claims.

 

It soon struck me how.....off...... it was.  Jews deported to the USSR?   In the middle of a war, one of the most vicious in history?  Really?  I knew what the Germans did in the USSR.  I also knew there was not a chance in hell any military wanted millions of refugees wandering around behind their lines or using up valuable transportation in the middle of an offensive.  The timing was also off, I knew when the major deportations took place, during the times of the most vicious fighting.  I also knew that by the time of the Hungarian Jews deportation took place there was no longer a German "East" to send them to.  So, what happened to them?  No denier had the answer, never mind babbling about Madagascar or a few French Jews found by the Red Army .  The technical issues were a wash for me, I'm not a chemist or an engineer but there were those who were that refuted those claims.  The antisemitic attitudes of the deniers I saw on-line disgusted me.  I'm anti-racist by nature, their attitudes immediately made them suspect to me.  To top it off many of them were conspiracy theorists of the worst kind, attributing all of this to some nebulous shadow Jews.  They included in their number 9-11 "truthers" whose arguments were already refuted.  I dropped them in disgust and moved on, to me it seemed like pissing on the memory of the dead.

 

In the Summer of 2014 I went looking on-line to figure out if something I saw on my TV guide was the same special I watched before.  I ran across something called Furtherglory, a blog ran by a woman named Gen Baugher.  Upon reading it I saw that she was a Holocaust denier but unlike other deniers she permitted comments on her blog (the denier blogs I saw up to then didn't allow it or required you to join their little group).  I left a snarky comment (shocking, I know ;D) and left it at that.  She needed to approve my comment before it showed up, I thought there was not a chance in hell but she did.  This started my rather long association with her blog, I met many a denier, some famous in their field, some not.  They called me a Hasbara troll, a Jew, on and on.  I found I enjoyed the give and take of it.  To counter their arguments I found Nizkor, PHDN and Holocaust Controversies.  I started reading more about the Holocaust and shoring up my knowledge.  I started commenting on Holocaust Controversies, they invited me to join the Skeptics Forum, giving me access to knowledge that I didn't know existed.  That eventually led me here.

 

So, why?  Well, it helps me use the practical knowledge I gained over the years.  It counterbalances the lies I see, I hope this helps those who stumble into this without the background I possessed to help see past the glitter.  I mentioned denial feels like pissing on the memory of the dead, that disgust also spurs this to some degree.

 

A part of me does it for them..........

 

Let me show you a family picture:

 

 

The above is a picture of the Epstein Family, the picture is from December, 1941.  The Epstein Family faced tragedy before, the Soviets arrested Haim Espstein when they occupied the Baltic states in 1940.  They sent him to the Gulag, they arrested him because he was the president of a bank.  His "Jewishness" didn't save him, so much for the Judeo-Bolshevik brotherhood.  What deniers don't tell you is that Jews and gentiles suffered equally under Soviet rule.  In any case, Haim died a few months after this picture was taken, as far as we know he died without learning of his family's fate.

 

So, what happened?  This event took place on December 15th, 1941.  The victims were Jews from the Liepaja Ghetto, the location is the Skeda Beach in Latvia.  The murderers were not actually Germans, they were Latvians supervised by Germans.  In the Baltics the Germans mostly used proxies to do their dirty work for them, also by this time many of the German killers suffered from psychological problems.  The solution was to make non-Germans do the killing, offering them rewards and plying them with insane amounts of alcohol.  

 

I won't show you anymore, it's upsetting.  For those who want to know more I will put a link in the comment section.  Suffice it to say the family died on that beach, it took a couple of viewings before I saw the little girl, hiding her face.  That picture haunts me a little, it helps to know that it was a long time ago and nothing could have saved them.  The killers made them face the ocean, maybe in a way that comforted them, the last thing they saw was the ocean.  A bullet beats starvation or dying in a gas chamber.  I suppose that helps.

 

I know what some of the reaction will be.  Stone-Eater will berate me for posting all this Nazi shit while bringing up that the U.S. murdered a billion people in the intervening years.  Tom will call me "Jewey" Kelly and bring up that the Khazars bombed Dresden, roasting a million Germans alive and cooking marshmallows over the remains.  Pardero will wonder why I hang out with bullies and denigrate the Germans.  Doug will post pointless comments and MEFOBILLS will bore me by talking about concentration camp money.  

 

That's all fine, bring it.  I know my country did shitty things, Germans suffered and that there are always weird anomalies in any human enterprise.  Maybe someone will post something like Thomas.  That's fine, I make no apologies for who I am and what interests me.  If it helps I have outside interests.  The weather will soon warm up (,hopefully sometime soon) so there will time spent with wife and family outdoors.  Football will come in the Fall, I talked the wife into getting the NFL Sunday Ticket.  I read other history besides the Holocaust, I bought a history of the USSR that I plan to read at some point.  The new Avengers and Deadpool movies drop soon, looking forward to getting my geek on.  I will post on those things as time goes by.

 

In any case, for those of you who made it through, I hope this helps explain me.  Alternate titles included "Confessions of a Holocaust Denier Denier" and "How I Lost My Marbles" but I decided on something short and to the point.

 

Here is the link:

 

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=28922&p=619718&hilit=Picture#p619718

 

Comments

Pardero Added Apr 16, 2018 - 11:33pm
Jeffrey Kelly,
This is a touching and highly personalized mission statement. 
 
It is a haunting picture.
I have been haunted by many things, in addition, such as the Irish Famines, the Armenian Genocide, the starvation and destruction of society in Germany after the Great War, and the Holodomor. 
I try not to look or read about such things, because I can't get the pictures and descriptions out of my head.
 All peoples seem to be capable of such things. We do need to remember, all of the state sponsored massacres and genocides.
It begins with dehumanization. We can see that process occurring, everyday. 
Have we really really changed, or just the players have changed?
The East Timor genocide was allowed to happen when I was a teenager. Remembering for the sake of it, does nothing, because works are necessary. All that remembering, did not save the Timorese. Let's remember them all, because all lives matter, not just some of them.
Let's do works, that may prevent it from ever happening again, to any group, not just some groups.
It all begins with one group believing that they are special, or laws are passed, making one group more equal than another group.
The players have changed, human nature hasn't. Let us get to work, on some works.
Pardero Added Apr 16, 2018 - 11:39pm
The most documented genocide, appears to be the Armenian genocide. I wouldn't wish those images on my worst enemy, if I had a real enemy. Steel yourself before looking, Jeffrey, because I can't make those images go away.
Pardero Added Apr 16, 2018 - 11:43pm
Peace.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 16, 2018 - 11:48pm
Always, Pardero.  Peace unto to you and your family.
Flying Junior Added Apr 17, 2018 - 2:44am
That is an amazing explanation.
 
You have deeper contacts and research.  But I share your hatred for holocaust denial.  My reasons differ slightly.
 
Like all decent citizens of the world I have abhorred the Nazi atrocities and false rendition and imprisonment perpetrated by the Third Reich since at least when I was eleven or twelve years old.  As my knowledge and understanding of the depth and extent of these horrific acts increased throughout my teens and on into my early thirties, my resolution only grew stronger.
 
When convicted holocaust denier, David Irving, sued Deborah Lipstadt for libel in 1996 I became aware of this desperate movement.  I never thought that it would gain much traction.
 
Irving was sentenced to three years in prison in the U.K.  Did that trial take place in Old Bailey?
 
It was when Trump first announced his candidacy for the presidency of the U.S.A. that I became truly alarmed by the prevalence of holocaust denial and American Nazism that I became very much alarmed.  It was much earlier than 2015 when Neo-Nazism began to take hold in Europe.  Neo-Nazis had been a problem in the U.S. for decades.
 
When I realized that, horror of horrors, Trump was the justification candidate for the hateful holocaust deniers, Neo-Nazis and White Supremacists all in one big, fat ugly, orange package that's when I decided to oppose these monsters with everything I had.
Flying Junior Added Apr 17, 2018 - 2:52am
And the other thing that really kills me is that all of this occurred and ended just over fourteen years before I was born.
 
As far as I am concerned this level of atrocity has never been exceeded in the short, sweet life of man on earth.  But I am not overly concerned with atrocities that occurred one hundred years ago or more.  I am aware of what white Americans did to the populations of Native Americans.  Hitler was still killing Jews in 1945.  That's not even seventy-three years ago.
Neil Lock Added Apr 17, 2018 - 4:12am
Good for you, Jeffrey. Evidence has to be the best way to persuade - at least, to persuade those who are willing to be persuaded.
 
Both Pardero and Flying Junior are thinking along the right lines. Wars and genocides are built into the political system we still suffer under today. It was devised about two and a half thousand years ago, the latest iteration (the Westphalian nation state) was devised in the 16th century. It's way past its last use by date. And it stinks.
 
As I've said before in this very forum, "That a species, which has developed nuclear weapons, is still using a political system from the age of the musket, is crazy. And scary. It’s got to change."
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:12am
If the holocaust really happened there would not be hundreds of people in jail for questioning it. There would not be hundreds of books censored on Amazon for discussing it. Its debate would not be forbidden in public society.
In a society based on free speech, when people wish to stifle that free speech, a logical assumption is to assume they have something to hide.
The holocaust industry is a multi billion dollar one to lay a collective guilt complex on all of Western society.
If you want to read history, fine, history can be interesting, but if you want to be wise then learn to think like a lawyer. Its something they don't teach you in high school or a university, but the courts have this whole truth thing nailed down pretty well and its taken over a thousand years to develop.
As far as evidence goes, there are rules of evidence to decide what should be admitted or not, such as books by Eli Wiesel. Is that evidence? Not in a court, and for good reason.
If you want truth, you have open courts. If you want lies you have mainstream media, slanted and biased public education, history books, and political prisoners.
No court case, no open court, then no truth. Nuremberg, tyhe famous ball crushing trial doesn't count. Bolshevik tribunals are not courts.
Jeffry Kelley, you think that Arabs blew up the towers on 9-11, which is just flat out nonsense. Tell me you are a mathematician all you want, but tell me in the same sentence that 2+2=5 and your credibility flies out the window.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:13am
Its a symptom of communism that people wish certain ideas to be censored. Its a very dangerous idea itself and it can only be accepted by a brainwashed population.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:15am
re "And the other thing that really kills me is that all of this occurred and ended just over fourteen years before I was born."
 
Lots of atrocities have happened since you were born, you just have your holocaust goggles on.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:17am
The idea that Hitler was killing Jews rather than put them to work is in direct opposition to anything associated with logic.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:19am
I have no skin in the holocaust game. I'm not Jewish, I don't have close relatives that are half Jewish. I have no agenda other than to know the truth. I also think this holocaust myth has done more harm to Jews than anyone. Its great for generating fear, which is what our rulers love more than anything. Fear induces paralysis.
Stone-Eater Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:34am
And while that subject is discussed for the nth time other genocides take place no fucking body cares. As for the time being Syria and Yemen.
 
Period.
David Montaigne Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:55am
Having studied under Jackson Spielvogel, having talked to survivors like Elie Weisel in person, having been to Auschwitz - there was never in my mind any doubt that the Holocaust happened.  Because the Germans wanted no paper trail, the usual written evidence was largely missing, and exact numbers are estimates to be disputed... but buildings, photos, and survivors remain.  Eisenhower was worried the Holocaust would be denied because of both anti-Semitism and the idea that it was so evil it was hard to believe "civilized" people would perpetrate it.  But similar exterminations still happen on a smaller scale in the 21st century.  Humans have a sad capacity to hate and dehumanize others.  If economic collapse or WWIII ever bring the West to its knees similar genocide could happen anywhere again soon.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:56am
I recently asked a blogger to clear some users from his comment section because they were breaking German law. He and I are free speech absolutists. However, as the laws exist he might get himself into trouble for his libertarian attitude. He did what I said.
 
The thing is that even if he were legally protected against what his visitors write, the market of ideas would still be dysfunct. Even as you try to dissuade people you are likely to point to and spread illegal material. So censorship makes it impossible to clean up rubbish and conspiracy theories fester like mad.
Leroy Added Apr 17, 2018 - 8:35am
Great article, Jeffrey.
 
As a child, my early learning was similar, except it was more towards literature.  Candide was my first book.  It shaped my views.  
 
I can't add anything to your excellent article.  Have you seen the movie, The Real Inglorious Bastards?  It is free on Prime.  It has little to do with the Holocaust; it is just a great documentary.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 8:49am
Hi, Leroy.
 
There are some excellent movies and documentaries on Prime.  I figured out the sequence of the pictures from one.
 
I’ll check out the “Real Inglorious Bastards,” I got a big kick out of the movie.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 9:11am
@Benjamin Goldstein:
I oppose Holocaust Denial laws or at least the application of such laws.
 
There are always limits to free speech but having a contrarian view or hurting someone’s feelings strikes me as an invalid reason to limit someone speaking their mind.  Denying that the Holocaust or Holodomor happened is ridiculous but not worth suppressing.  However, I’m not a citizen of a country that has such laws.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 9:23am
I called it, didn’t I, Stone-Eater?
 
;)
 
Stone, write about them and I will read about it.  If that’s what interests you, do it.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 9:48am
@Flying Junior:
”When I realized that, horror of horrors, Trump was the justification candidate for the hateful holocaust deniers, Neo-Nazis and White Supremacists all in one big, fat ugly, orange package that's when I decided to oppose these monsters with everything I had.”
 
Yes, I agree.  
 
Naturally not all Trump supporters are like that, I say the vast majority is not.  There is always rotten fruit in any bunch.  There those on the left that are also deniers but it is telling that many of those sort gravitated to Trump.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 10:00am
@David Montaigne:
 
There is a surprising amount of existing documentation, the key is finding context to it.  The Soviets captured much  of the existing documentation at Auschwitz when they liberated the camp.  They locked much of it away but allowed access to it in the 1990’s.
 
There is a large amount of existing documentation on the gas vans used to murder Jews at Chelmno and at other places.  The Einsatzgruppen Reports shed a lot of light on what happened.  We also have speeches and diaries.
 
What we don’t have a lot of is specific documentation on the Reinhard Camps. We do have some eyewitness testimony from survivors, bystanders and perpetrators but Globocnik destroyed much of the documentation when the camps closed.  We have some peripheral documents mentioning assignments and closures.  There is practically no eyewitness testimony for Belzec but there is for Sobibor and Treblinka because the workers rebelled before the camps closed.
 
Your point on other genocides is spot on.  Humans posses a vast capacity to hate and destroy.  It worries me, it proves that we have a long way to go and may not make it.  I’m 48, I remember the fall of the Iron Curtain and the end of Communism.  I remember my friends and I felt so optimistic.  Sadly we seem to be sinking right back into the morass.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 10:02am
@Neil Lock:
That’s a very good point.  You said it very succinctly, we still posses the political system from the Enlightenment but our weapons are much worse.
Tom C. Purcell Added Apr 17, 2018 - 11:01am
Jeffrey Kelly depends on the Tom C. Purcell's of the world to stake his limited worth as a writer.  Jeffrey Kelly the Writer does not exist without Tom Purcell. 
 
All I need is history to analyze and write about, and I write about a variety of historical and other topics.  Jeffrey needs, not only the "holocaust" but also, he desperately needs the coattails of revisionists in order to build his brand.  Like a louse Jeffrey needs a living host to survive. 
 
Most sadly, he uses many, many words and provides no compelling data to prove that millions of Ashkenazi Jews were tricked into being crammed into fake showers and gassed to death with insecticide. 
Bill H. Added Apr 17, 2018 - 11:12am
Jeffrey - Trump simply reinforces the views and attitudes of these people who seem to all gravitate around the same ideals of "white supremacy" and "master race" beliefs. I believe it all stems around certain individual's deep-rooted inferiority complexes. These people need to constantly prove to themselves that they are important or above others in order to attain some level of self-worth. Many during childhood were constantly criticized or compared to a "superior" sibling or labeled a failure. They are able to feel what they have lacked by demeaning others of a different race or religion. Their favorite targets tend to be Blacks, Hispanics, and Jews.
It is very obvious that Trump has a massive inferiority complex that is a core foundation of his narcissism. He constantly tries to compensate for this by expressing how great he is, how great he is doing, and how big the crowds were at his inauguration as an example. Of course the barrage of constant lies is a normal byproduct.
 
Tom C. Purcell Added Apr 17, 2018 - 11:23am
Bill H., you are full of it.  Really, although some do, few people really espouse "master race" ideals.  That term is terribly misunderstood as it is.  All "master race" meant was first/original.  Not master of other races per se, despite Germanic pride at the time of Aryan terminology in 1930s/40s.
 
White Supremacy?  So what does that mean?  People use these terms all the time as accusations but it means something different to almost everyone.  There is no single doctrine or pathos to "White Supremacy".  It's broad, almost meaningless term.  Most people here the two words together, "White" and "Pride" and correlate that to "White Supremacy".  The two are not synonymous.
Tom C. Purcell Added Apr 17, 2018 - 11:25am
'hear the two words together' I keep transposing hear/here lately.  Gawe!
Bill H. Added Apr 17, 2018 - 11:59am
Tom - what I described may not necessarily fit your mold, but certainly does of many. A kid that I went to elementary school with and I still meet up with to this day on fishing trips is a perfect example of what I described.
Other factors can relate to who one hangs with, or even stem from misinterpreted or incorrectly taught religious beliefs.
My wife's father was Czechoslovakian and from a small steel town near Pittsburgh PA. He always told me how he was taught as a child to despise the Italians who resided on the other side of the railroad tracks. He was also taught to despise the Jews who owned many local businesses and banks, and to him, seemed to have an advantage when it came to making money.
Tom C. Purcell Added Apr 17, 2018 - 12:05pm
We're all products of our environments.  The problem is, every other race and gender is permitted to be a product of their environment.  Everyone  except for White Men is a product of their environment, striving to overcome the oppression of (Whites)____.  If I'm a product of my environment it's labeled 'White Privilege' and 'racism'.  The double standards in America that continue to damn the people who's ancestors developed and preserved Western Civilization, is shocking.  This is our country, dammit!
Pardero Added Apr 17, 2018 - 12:19pm
Jeffrey Kelly,
It is wise to remember the past.
Soon, people will say that they had no idea what was happening in Yemen. They will be shocked and outraged and say 'never again.'
Those Yemenis are sympathetic to a despised and dehumanized group.
They are also in opposition to a US ally. They have little value to westerners. No one seems to care if they are 'disappeared,' since they are a thorn in Saudi Arabia's side.
We can't change the past, but we could affect the present, which appears to have an ongoing genocide in Yemen. Let's take the lessons of the past and apply them to our consideration of Yemen. 
Bill Kamps Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:11pm
These days it is difficult to know what to believe, because "facts" can be created out of thin air on any side.  In the recent past I have done some digging on a couple of events, trying to find out what was true.  What I found were "facts" on both sides of the situation.  Obviously some of the "facts" were not facts but concocted stories, but the stories had their references, and one could dig pretty deep and find conflicting evidence on both sides. 
 
In addition, some people cant have their mind changed.  Some people believe man did not land on the moon. 
 
As for the holocaust.  Well we know the camps existed, and we know lots of people died there.  Was it 6 million? I dont know.  I know it matters politically to some, but it does not matter to me. Did Hitler haul away the Jews from their homes? yes. Was it for work or to kill them, Im sure both happened.
 
More than 100 million died in the WWII, so lots of people died.  How exactly they all died doesnt really matter to me, it was an awful set of events, and one I hope we dont have to face again. 
 
As many have observed,  the 6 millions alleged to have died in the holocaust certainly get a lot more press than the other 100 million or so that died in the war. 
 
 
Tom C. Purcell Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:23pm
Why the numbers matter, why the claims of homicidal gas chambers matter is because the world in which we live is largely built on these conjured factors, and the German nation and Western nations have been plundered for 7 straight decades and counting based on the H-words. 
 
I've never denied that Ashkenazi Jews were being exiled, but I have pointed out that it's happened over a hundred times in different nations throughout history, and the potential reasons why it happened again in Germany.  I've never denied that Jews were killed just because they were Jewish, and I've never said that is morally acceptable or forgivable.  But there's a big difference between the horrors of war, and a very poorly carried out systematic genocide that has a name called "holocaust", from which one sect of people benefit exponentially. 
 
It's a comedy - the Nazis hurriedly cramming bodies into single-sized ovens, SS men shouting angrily to burn the corpses more efficiently before the Red Army discovers the pathetically hatched plan to kill all the Jews before their Reich and Vaterland was ultimately conquered for good.  But that's the narrative people like to clutch.  I don't understand it.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:25pm
I cannot give this multi billion dollar holocaust industry any credibility when it feels so threatened by Monika Shaefer and Ursula Haverbeck Wetzel (87 yrs old). This multi billion dollar industry has something to hide and these witch trials will not be forgotten if free speech is ever restored.
To think that people on here are so thoroughly brainwashed as to believe these women were motivated by greed, pride, hate, lust, sloth, envy or gluttony is completely beyond me. Its the inner workings of a communist mind that forgets that an evil intent must accompany a crime for a conviction. But the communist mind is divorced from reason and must follow dogma. The communist mind must hate so that it can be lead by dogma.
If you are curious about how you should think, then look for video of Sylvia Stolz, an attorney convicted of standing for free speech in Germany. She isn't a holocaust denier but defended a holocaust denier.
For a people or an association or an industry to be believed, or trusted, then character must be taken into account, of which they have none. The character of the witness does matter.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:26pm
If you want to really stop genocide, then stop paying for it. Tell the next IRS or CRA agent you speak to to fuck off.
Bill Kamps Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:35pm
Tom: Why the numbers matter, why the claims of homicidal gas chambers matter......
 
Tom true.  However, we dont have to disprove the holocaust, to stop pandering to Israel.  That is a false equivalency. We can just stop.  We can decide it is no longer in our interest.   This does not mean we stop treating them as an ally, but it can mean we stop accepting everything they say and do without hesitation or criticism. 
 
As you say, many other people's have been killed in large numbers, and we dont feel obligated to support their politics without reservation.  Why? because it is not in our interest to do so.  We can decide the same thing about Israel. 
 
We dont have to question how we got to this policy, we can just change the policy. 
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:41pm
Too many people think Jews can do no wrong because of the holocaust.
Tom C. Purcell Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:42pm
Including Jews, Doug, especially "Jews".
Bill Kamps Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:53pm
Doug and Tom.  I think even if the holocaust were agreed to be untrue, it would not change the perception that the Jews were greatly  mistreated during the war.  Hence they would make the same claims.
 
A better position is simply that it doesnt matter about the holocaust, it doesnt matter what the Israel says about it, we need to act in our own best interest.  We dont support the Armenians unequivocally.  Obviously their PR is not as good as the Jews. 
 
Probably more Russians were killed by Stalin than 6 million, and we surely dont support the Russians without question. 
 
The whole debate just plays  into their hands.  The debate says it matters, we need to get to the place where it doesnt.
Neil Lock Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:57pm
Jeffrey: In fact, it's worse than you say. The Westphalian nation state was devised, not in the 17th century in which the Enlightenment began, nor in the 18th century in which it flourished until the French screwed things up, but in the 16th century. It was intended to underpin the French monarchist system of the time - and it produced, among much else, the "Sun King."
 
One of my essays here from a few months ago, "On Political Societies and Political Governments," has more on the subject.
Tom C. Purcell Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:59pm
I disagree that the debate plays into Jews' hands.  There are so many ridiculous claims that cannot be substantiated, that the more the debate carries on the more strength my/our perspective gains. Right Doug? 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 2:14pm
My, I walk away for a little bit and look what happens.... 
:)
Bill Kamps Added Apr 17, 2018 - 2:19pm
Tom and Doug, most people are not directly exposed to the details of the holocaust on a daily basis.  People know what is said about it, and yes it does affect their sympathies towards the Jews.  Most people are exposed to the statements from Israel that whatever they are doing at the time, even if horrible, they are doing to ensure their survival.  Even if people didnt buy the holocaust story, this statement would still ring credible with many  people because A) they were systemically persecuted(at least) during the war, and B) Israel is a small country surrounded by Arab  countries who are openly hostile to it. 
 
I dont believe that if the 6 million number was disproven, and that it was shown that mostly Jews were sent to work camps, and yes some number died in the camps, but not in a systemic extermination effort, it would make much difference in the politics of the day.
 
The sympathy for the Jews will not go away simply because the numbers dont add up.
 
What will make a difference, is if we decide that giving Israel carte blanche to do what they want, is not in our best interest. 
 
That is just my opinion of course. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 2:21pm
@Tom Purcell:
”Jeffrey Kelly depends on the Tom C. Purcell's of the world to stake his limited worth as a writer. Jeffrey Kelly the Writer does not exist without Tom Purcell.”
 
LOL, chuckles, I stayed when you ran off. I don’t just write about this subject.  I intend to write more about things that interest me, not just the Holocaust.

“All I need is history to analyze and write about, and I write about a variety of historical and other topics.”
 
No shit, so do I.  
 
 
“Jeffrey needs, not only the "holocaust" but also, he desperately needs the coattails of revisionists in order to build his brand.”
 
Don’t say “revisionists,” Tom.  Call them (and yourself) deniers.  Because that is what you are.
 
“Like a louse Jeffrey needs a living host to survive.”
 
I didn’t need you when you left.

“Most sadly, he uses many, many words and provides no compelling data to prove that millions of Ashkenazi Jews were tricked into being crammed into fake showers and gassed to death with insecticide.”
 
 
I think I struck a nerve.....
Tom, what evidence would you like?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 2:23pm
@Bill H.
”Jeffrey - Trump simply reinforces the views and attitudes of these people who seem to all gravitate around the same ideals of "white supremacy" and "master race" beliefs. I believe it all stems around certain individual's deep-rooted inferiority complexes. These people need to constantly prove to themselves that they are important or above others in order to attain some level of self-worth.”
 
Yes, Bill.  Not all but many.  
 
“Their favorite targets tend to be Blacks, Hispanics, and Jews.”
 
We can add Muslims to that mix.

“It is very obvious that Trump has a massive inferiority complex that is a core foundation of his narcissism. He constantly tries to compensate for this by expressing how great he is, how great he is doing, and how big the crowds were at his inauguration as an example. Of course the barrage of constant lies is a normal byproduct.”
 
Absolutely, it’s pathetic.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 2:27pm
@Pardero:

“It is wise to remember the past.
Soon, people will say that they had no idea what was happening in Yemen. They will be shocked and outraged and say 'never again.'”
 
We always say that, humans never mean it.  To some degree we remain slaves to our tribal mentalities, us against them.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 2:32pm
@Bill Kamps:
”As for the holocaust. Well we know the camps existed, and we know lots of people died there.”
 
Not just camps, Bill.  
 
“Was it 6 million? I dont know.”
 
Bill, I’ve written about this before.  This “six million” that deniers blather on and on about is often rounded up.  The number given at the IMT was 5.7 million by the WJC, Raul Hilberg thought 5.1 million and so on.  
 
“I know it matters politically to some, but it does not matter to me. Did Hitler haul away the Jews from their homes? yes. Was it for work or to kill them, Im sure both happened.”
 
A large percentage of those killed were murdered close to their homes.

“More than 100 million died in the WWII, so lots of people died. How exactly they all died doesnt really matter to me, it was an awful set of events, and one I hope we dont have to face again.”
 
Agreed but I think your number is way too high.
Pardero Added Apr 17, 2018 - 3:30pm
     Bill Kamps-"What will make a difference, is if we decide that giving Israel carte blanche to do what they want, is not in our best interest." 
Such a reasonable and pragmatic course could take some wind out of a movement that appears to be growing. Outrageous excess has doomed many a movement, and the Holocaust Industry is unlikely to be an exception. 
 
As much as I am sickened by unquestioned propaganda being accepted as settled fact, and would like to see the truth, current events prove that it takes uncommon dedication and sleuthing to find the truth in current events, let alone in the fog of war, over 70 years ago. I agree that people will believe what they are pre-disposed to believe.
Even in a faraway elective war, the US trampled civil rights and murdered some German submariners. I don't even care to imagine what we would have turned into, if we were surrounded by intractable enemies. 
The argument that Revisionist activity only gives others something to squeal about? Perhaps. 
It doesn't make any difference, now, about the yellow cake and babies ripped out of incubators propaganda, but I am glad that the truth came out. We had been manipulated by propaganda. What if laws had been passed, that outlawed discussion of the official story? We would have never known the truth. 
Most groups are allowed to choose their own name. Pro-life and Pro-choice are two such groups. Before euphemistic and attractive monikers were chosen, the names were considerably less pleasant.
The word 'Denier' has more stigma than any 'Nazi prison guard' title could ever have.
It seems fair to me, that those that choose to research and revise details of history as discoveries allow, should be allowed to call themselves Revisionists. Emotive and often exaggerated language has no value in a civilized debate. It hardly seems fair that an adversary in debate, gets to choose another's description and title.
 
As an aside, I had always looked at other revisionist history as cultural Marxist revision of history. I had never considered revisionist history to include corrections of myths, legends, and wartime propaganda.
Stone-Eater Added Apr 17, 2018 - 3:33pm
Jeffry
 
I will not write something about other genocides. Why ? Because people are not interested in them, and, maybe also because they wouldn't like to find out that THEIR own country has played a part in it.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 3:38pm
I'm with you Tom. The holocaust is their Billion Dollar Baby - hundreds of billions more like. Yeah, they hate it when we talk about their new religion for the goyim to love the Jew and their reason for the Jew to hate the goyim.
Most Jews are like everyone else, but some hate us because formal Jews hate all non Jews and consider them nothing more than existing to serve Jews. Its the most arrogant and hateful religion ever created, followed by Islam. Islamics and Jews get along fine with the multiculturalism to destroy the West, but when the Islamics get their multiculturalism and start killing Christians in the streets they will learn to hate the Jew again. For now they are happy with Western stupidity, a gift from Allah himself.
This secretive and closed religion will not permit the questioning of its dogma by its followers. Judaism and how it leads its own is a model for how the rest of us are to be lead.
People of the West really don't understand dogmatic hatred, its a consciousness you only encounter with some psychopaths. Its an integral part of real Judaism and Islam. Anyone can verify this by looking for Talmud quotes and then checking them.
Judaism is nothing like Christianity and the term Judeo-Christian ethic is the term used by the brainwashed. Jews and Christians have NO common values in their religions.
Just think about the young sex slaves and grooming houses over here and the fact that Israel has allowed slavery to survive until the year 2006 while the civilized world abolished it long ago.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 3:40pm
The people on here that say they hate holocaust deniers are filled with hate themselves and cannot pursue a life based on truth above all else. They cannot see the virtue in those two old women and many others who put truth above their own well being. They are heroes, believe them or not. The communist mind cannot understand this.
Pardero Added Apr 17, 2018 - 3:42pm
Stone-Eater,
It could be argued, that the Finns and Irish have the cleanest shirts, but everyone else has blood on their hands, to varying degrees.
 
I will take this opportunity to make another gratuitous mention of Yemen.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 3:43pm
The people that suffered the most from the war were not Jews, it was the young men who were lead to believe in the glory of war, both on the German side, on the Russian side and on the American side. It wasn't the Jews, not by a long shot. The German people suffered much more than the Jews, but German people do not count in state mandated dogma. Only dollars count in state mandated dogma.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 3:44pm
re "We always say that, humans never mean it.  To some degree we remain slaves to our tribal mentalities, us against them."
 
Not Christians.
Stone-Eater Added Apr 17, 2018 - 3:44pm
The holocaust is their Billion Dollar Baby - hundreds of billions more like.
 
Let's make Sudan, Yemen, Syria, Libya and Ruanda also a billion dollar babies. Oh sorry, that don't work, because that's only some negroes or fucking Arabs, so forget it ;-)
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 3:44pm
re "Bill, I’ve written about this before.  This “six million” that deniers blather on and on about is often rounded up.  The number given at the IMT was 5.7 million by the WJC, Raul Hilberg thought 5.1 million and so on. "
 
I have read that its at least 6 million, maybe closer to 20 million.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 3:45pm
six million is a cabalistic number,m its always 6 million Jews this and 6 million Jews that. They communicate with the group through the press.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 3:47pm
@Bill re "Jeffrey - Trump simply reinforces the views and attitudes of these people who seem to all gravitate around the same ideals of "white supremacy" and "master race" beliefs."
 
Who believes in the "master race" except Jews of themselves? You watch too much TV.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 3:52pm
re " Israel is a small country surrounded by Arab  countries who are openly hostile to it. "
 
So what. Jews hate all non Jews and Islamics hate all non Islamics. They are the old testament religions and belong in the stone age. Let them kill each other, as long as they hate me, I don't care. I'm becoming a "glass parking lot" guy more and more as I get older. The whole area is just morally depraved.
 
Pardero Added Apr 17, 2018 - 3:53pm
Doug Plumb,
You are well focused today. 
Pithy, brief, and to the point, is a worthy goal. 
I am hoping that we can all be respectful of the dead, and avoid indelicate language that could offend those that mourn for the dead and the horrors of war.
It is my belief that some subjects require a delicate touch, lest people become alienated.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 4:15pm
@Stone-Eater
 
No offense but it seems like you do a lot of griping.  I would read what you have to write, I do follow you and read your articles.  I don’t always comment but I do follow.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 4:18pm
Gawd, this might take awhile.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 4:36pm
*cracks knuckles*
@Doug Plumb:
”If the holocaust really happened there would not be hundreds of people in jail for questioning it.”
 
Name them or provide links to everyone currently in prison for “questioning the Holocaust.”
 
“There would not be hundreds of books censored on Amazon for discussing it. Its debate would not be forbidden in public society.”
 
Amazon simply refused to stop selling denier books.  There are still some there but more importantly the books are still available on-line at places like CODOH.  Amazon is a private company, they set their own rules on what they carry and what they don’t.
 
“In a society based on free speech, when people wish to stifle that free speech, a logical assumption is to assume they have something to hide.”
 
You and logic only have a passing familiarity with each other.  The reality is that laws regarding denial have their roots in many things.  Not all countries have laws regarding it.

“The holocaust industry is a multi billion dollar one to lay a collective guilt complex on all of Western society.”
 
How much?  Please provide verifiable information on the amount that is spent supporting this industry.
 
“If you want to read history, fine, history can be interesting, but if you want to be wise then learn to think like a lawyer. Its something they don't teach you in high school or a university, but the courts have this whole truth thing nailed down pretty well and its taken over a thousand years to develop.”
 
It would help if you read history, you might actually learn something.  The court systems judged all of this long ago.

“As far as evidence goes, there are rules of evidence to decide what should be admitted or not, such as books by Eli Wiesel. Is that evidence? Not in a court, and for good reason.”
 
How about the Germans own words?  Does that count?


“No court case, no open court, then no truth. Nuremberg, tyhe famous ball crushing trial doesn't count.”
 
Please detail where torture was used.  I need to know, specifically, which defendants were tortured and who the perpetrators were.
 
 
“Bolshevik tribunals are not courts.”
 
The Bolsheviks ran the courts in West Germany, Britain, the United States and Israel?  Huh, what do you know, did not know that.
Please provide, in detail, which trials were ran by “Bolsheviks.”
 
“Jeffry Kelley, you think that Arabs blew up the towers on 9-11, which is just flat out nonsense.”
 
Yes.  They weren’t reptilians from Uranus or rabid Jews.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 4:43pm
@Doug Plumb:
”The idea that Hitler was killing Jews rather than put them to work is in direct opposition to anything associated with logic.”
 
See, if you knew anything about history you would know that the Germans did put healthy Jews to work.  They had no use for those that couldn’t work, those Jews drained resources.  This is why those Jews were murdered and the others salvaged and put to work.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 4:52pm
@Tom Purcell:
”I've never denied that Ashkenazi Jews were being exiled, but I have pointed out that it's happened over a hundred times in different nations throughout history,”
 
Wait, I thought they were Khazars, Tom, FFS, find a theory and stick with it.
 
I wonder what the explanation is for the Spanish kicking the Muslims out of Spain, the English kicking the Catholics out of England, the French persecuting the Huguenots....Tom, were all these groups closet Jews?  What about the Five Civilized Tribes and the Trail of Tears, were they closet Jews?
Lot of Jews in the world, who knew?
 
“and the potential reasons why it happened again in Germany. I've never denied that Jews were killed just because they were Jewish,”
 
That’s awfully big of you...
 
“and I've never said that is morally acceptable or forgivable.”
 
Very good.
 
“But there's a big difference between the horrors of war, and a very poorly carried out systematic genocide that has a name called "holocaust", from which one sect of people benefit exponentially.”
 
Well, that Nazis targeted that sect to the exclusion of others, long after there was any point of doing so.  


“It's a comedy - the Nazis hurriedly cramming bodies into single-sized ovens, SS men shouting angrily to burn the corpses more efficiently before the Red Army discovers the pathetically hatched plan to kill all the Jews before their Reich and Vaterland was ultimately conquered for good. But that's the narrative people like to clutch. I don't understand it.”
 
I don’t understand how you can deny something you understand so poorly.
 
BTW, what evidence would you be prepared to accept, Tom?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 4:58pm
@Pardero:
”As much as I am sickened by unquestioned propaganda being accepted as settled fact,”
 
 
Pardero, my issue with this is you seem very uninformed.  I can help you but I need to know that you are prepared to listen.
 
“It seems fair to me, that those that choose to research and revise details of history as discoveries allow, should be allowed to call themselves Revisionists.”
 
Pardero, historians revise history all of the time, even in regards to this subject. I’ve seen it.  If you want examples I can provide them.
 
Tom C. Purcell Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:04pm
Wow look at the pedestal Jeffrey has climbed up onto.  Thinks he knows stuff because he subscribes to Netflix.  Laughable, almost funny even.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:05pm
re "Name them or provide links to everyone currently in prison for “questioning the Holocaust.”
I already have named a three from just very recent recent history above.
 
re "Amazon simply refused to stop selling denier books."
Bookstores refusing to sell certain books is how censorship is done. Profit is only part of the motive, information control is another, because they forego profits in the name of censorship.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:05pm
re "How about the Germans own words?  Does that count?"
 
"Not enough coke to burn all these bodies" - there are some German words for you.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:05pm
@Doug Plumb:
”I'm with you Tom. The holocaust is their Billion Dollar Baby - hundreds of billions more like.”
 
How much, specifically?  Give me the numbers for 2016, I’ll give you a two year leeway.
 
 
I deleted the paragraphs full of hate.  I will allow you to comment but I feel no need to reply to it.
 
“Just think about the young sex slaves and grooming houses over here and the fact that Israel has allowed slavery to survive until the year 2006 while the civilized world abolished it long ago.”
 
Prove it.
 

“The people on here that say they hate holocaust deniers are filled with hate themselves and cannot pursue a life based on truth above all else.”
 
I don’t hate deniers, Doug.  I pity them.  I pity you, the more you expound the more you reveal your true nature.
 
 
“They cannot see the virtue in those two old women and many others who put truth above their own well being.”
 
Stupidity, more like it.  They must like the prison chow in Germany.
 
 
“They are heroes, believe them or not.”
 
I think they are morons but I will agree they don’t deserve prison.
 
“The communist mind cannot understand this.”
 
I’m a capitalist, Doug.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:06pm
Damnit, you two, I’m trying to catch up!!!!!
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:08pm
re "The Bolsheviks ran the courts in West Germany, Britain, the United States and Israel?  Huh, what do you know, did not know that.
Please provide, in detail, which trials were ran by “Bolsheviks.”
 
There's a lu-lu. When was the last time you went to court for a speeding ticket? income tax ? Any time someone is fined the fine money goes to the banks, not back to the community from which the offense was committed.Where does this money go ? Federal Reserve, big banks who fund communism takeover through dropping bombs and/or bullshit.
 
The Neuremberg trials were run by the Allies who's banks funded Bolshevism.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:10pm
@Doug Plumb:
”I have read that its at least 6 million, maybe closer to 20 million.”
 
Boy, you really don’t know what you are talking about...


“six million is a cabalistic number,m its always 6 million Jews this and 6 million Jews that. They communicate with the group through the press.”
 
Did the WJC at Nuremberg, Raul Hilberg, Gerald Reitlinger, etc. not get the memo about the six million?


“re " Israel is a small country surrounded by Arab countries who are openly hostile to it. "

So what. Jews hate all non Jews and Islamics hate all non Islamics. They are the old testament religions and belong in the stone age. Let them kill each other, as long as they hate me, I don't care. I'm becoming a "glass parking lot" guy more and more as I get older. The whole area is just morally depraved.”
 
Oh, look, Doug wants very own genocide.....
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:14pm
@Tom Purcell:
 
”Wow look at the pedestal Jeffrey has climbed up onto. Thinks he knows stuff because he subscribes to Netflix. Laughable, almost funny even.”
 
I know far, far, far more than you, Tom.  Care to take this to the Skeptics Forum, match your knowledge against mine?  Come now, surely you aren’t afraid to do that.

@ Doug Plumb 
re "Name them or provide links to everyone currently in prison for “questioning the Holocaust.”
I already have named a three from just very recent recent history above.”
 
You said hundreds.  Name them or provide links.


“re "Amazon simply refused to stop selling denier books."
Bookstores refusing to sell certain books is how censorship is done. Profit is only part of the motive, information control is another, because they forego profits in the name of censorship.”
 
LOL, please provide the numbers that the sale of denier books was profitable before Amazon removed them.

@Doug Plumb

"Not enough coke to burn all these bodies" - there are some German words for you.”
 
Oh, I have more than you, Doug.  
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:18pm
@Doug Plumb:
”re "The Bolsheviks ran the courts in West Germany, Britain, the United States and Israel? Huh, what do you know, did not know that.
Please provide, in detail, which trials were ran by “Bolsheviks.”

“There's a lu-lu. When was the last time you went to court for a speeding ticket? income tax ? Any time someone is fined the fine money goes to the banks, not back to the community from which the offense was committed.Where does this money go ? Federal Reserve, big banks who fund communism takeover through dropping bombs and/or bullshit.”
 
Not an answer.  Doug, please provide proof of which trials were run by Bolsheviks.

“The Neuremberg trials 
were run by the Allies who's banks funded Bolshevism.”
 
Proof.
 
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:19pm
re "See, if you knew anything about history you would know that the Germans did put healthy Jews to work.  They had no use for those that couldn’t work, those Jews drained resources.  This is why those Jews were murdered and the others salvaged and put to work."
 
So out of the Jewish population, almost all were sickly and couldn't work? Worked them to death ...that doesn't add up either, a couple of bowls of soup for many bullets.
   
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:20pm
Jeffrey, Bolshevism is the new Neo Marxism. Same sources, same games.
Bill Kamps Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:34pm
Padero: Such a reasonable and pragmatic course could take some wind out of a movement that appears to be growing movement.

 
Thanks.
 
My point simply is that people can debate each other, and hurl insults, as they are doing here, and none of it really matters because neither side is going to give in.   It is obviously a hot button for a number of people on both sides.
 
Jeffery had to take to correcting my mistakes regarding the holocaust, instead of responding to the jist of my response.  All fine, I dont consider myself an expert on the subject.  It just shows how sensitive the details of this subject are. 
 
The Jews PR machine is obviously much better than other groups that have been singled out for persecution over the centuries.  EVEN IF what they  say is true, it is not a reason to give them a free pass. 
 
What matters, is the policy that the  US has towards Israel.  What matters is Israel's policy towards the Palestinians, and how they deal with the various other countries, and groups that surround it. This is what we should be debating because this affects the here and now.   What matters is that we should not be giving them a free pass to do anything they want, just because of the events of WWII.  They should no more get a free pass than the Russians or Chinese who each had more people killed in the war than the Jews. 
 
Just like any country or group, what Israel does sometimes is correct in my opinion, and sometimes is not.  Sometimes they act like a bully in the neighborhood and use the excuse of survival as their rationale.  Some things do threaten their survival, but to be honest not very many things.  They dont get to use that excuse, and the events of WWII as a reason to do anything they want. 
 
I dont think proving or disproving the holocaust will change people's sympathies and that doesnt really matter.  We can be sympathetic to a country and people, and still have a rationale policy with regards to their behavior. 
Neil Lock Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:35pm
Doug Plumb: If the holocaust really happened there would not be hundreds of people in jail for questioning it. That's rather like: If the "global warming" scare was real, no scientists would ever have been sacked or otherwise victimized for questioning it.
 
And later, in the same comment: In a society based on free speech, when people wish to stifle that free speech, a logical assumption is to assume they have something to hide.
 
Doug, don't you see the contradiction in your own words? But I myself am on Jeffrey's side in this debate. I don't see any reason to disbelieve the conventional view on the holocaust.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:08pm
re "That's rather like: If the "global warming" scare was real, no scientists would ever have been sacked or otherwise victimized for questioning it."
Yes. AGW is BS too. And its good reasoning.
 
re "Doug, don't you see the contradiction in your own words? "
No, I don't. does anyone?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:12pm
@Bill Kamps:
If you feel I insulted you, I apologize.  However, your number regarding the loss of life during WW II is too high.
 
As for Israel, I’m hardly the biggest supporter.  I support that the state of Israel has a right to its existence, however, I do not support persecuting the Palestinians and I support a two-state solution.  Israel is a reality that needs to be dealt with.
 
 
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:15pm
Its like I'm arguing with people covered in shit, trying to get them to look down at their bodies and they won't. I don't care if its the holocaust, the moon landings, 9-11, the Bomb, AGW, Peak Oil, terrorism, or the man-bear-pig its all there to scare the shit out of you to make you more gullible so they can keep scaring the shit out of you and keep making you more gullible.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:15pm
@Doug Plumb:
”So out of the Jewish population, almost all were sickly and couldn't work?”
 
Don’t forget children, their mothers and the elderly.
 
“Worked them to death ...that doesn't add up either, a couple of bowls of soup for many bullets.”
 
Again, a piss poor knowledge of what was going on.


“Jeffrey, Bolshevism is the new Neo Marxism. Same sources, same games.”
 
I looked, no answers to my questions.  Get crackin’ Doug, times a wastin’.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:25pm
@Doug Plumb:
”Its like I'm arguing with people covered in shit”
 
That’s graphic.  It’s good I’m not easily fucking insulted.
 
“I don't care if its the holocaust, the moon landings, 9-11, the Bomb, AGW, Peak Oil, terrorism, or the man-bear-pig its all there to scare the shit out of you”
 
 
Oh, look.  It’s a laundry list of Doug’s crazy.  That’s fun.
 
Answer my questions, Doug.
 
 
 
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:35pm
I just lost all my text ... here we go again...in bits
 
re "Again, a piss poor knowledge of what was going on."
 
"For a good war you need a lot of bullets, right ? Is there a cheaper way of making bullets than using slaves?" Logic is what is going on, as always.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:38pm
re "“The Neuremberg trials 
were run by the Allies who's banks funded Bolshevism.”
 
Administrative Procedures Act 1947, all of the West. Turns common law courts into default statutory where assumptions are made wrt you giving up inalienable rights. That is Bolshevik, by definition. Bolsheviks all funded by same banks. Money is law, law is money. The highest court in a land is the exchequer, the "central bank" as we know it.
 
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:41pm
re "You said hundreds.  Name them or provide links."
The number is 26 here.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:42pm
re "@Doug Plumb:
”I have read that its at least 6 million, maybe closer to 20 million.”
 
Boy, you really don’t know what you are talking about..."
There was a mainstream article a year or two ago, credible for mainstream. I forget if it was the New Yorker or what it was. I don't have the link.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:44pm
re Nuremberg trials, lots of info out there on this courts procedures.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:46pm
Jeffrey, I have no doubt that you know more about the history of this and there are deniers that know more than you, some on here maybe. The worlds greatest mathematician cannot make 2+ 2 equal to 5.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 6:46pm
Its not fair, I know.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 7:37pm
@Doug Plumb:
”"For a good war you need a lot of bullets, right ? Is there a cheaper way of making bullets than using slaves?" Logic is what is going on, as always.”
 
Except that the Germans had foreign workers and conscripts already working to produce bullets.  Ever heard of the Ostabeiter?  Soviet POW’s used in German labor, including the manufacture of war materials?  
 
Doug, the Germans kidnapped foreign workers during the war to do labor.  Jews were included but they didn’t need “useless eaters.”  


“re "“The Neuremberg trials
were run by the Allies who's banks funded Bolshevism.”

Administrative Procedures Act 1947, all of the West. Turns common law courts into default statutory where assumptions are made wrt you giving up inalienable rights. That is Bolshevik, by definition. Bolsheviks all funded by same banks. Money is law, law is money. The highest court in a land is the exchequer, the "central bank" as we know it.”
 
Is that supposed to make any sense?



“re "You said hundreds. Name them or provide links."
The number is 26 here.”
 
There you go, Doug!!!!  An actual link!!!!
 
Hey, Doug, is there some sort of new math that I’m not aware of where 26=100’s?  I’ll look at your link later.


“”I have read that its at least 6 million, maybe closer to 20 million.”

Boy, you really don’t know what you are talking about..."
There was a mainstream article a year or two ago, credible for mainstream. I forget if it was the New Yorker or what it was. I don't have the link.”
 
Well, you let me know.  Is that the same sort of thing where 26=100’s?  


“re Nuremberg trials, lots of info out there on this courts procedures.”
 
I don’t care about that, I want you to explain yourself.


“Jeffrey, I have no doubt that you know more about the history of this”
 
Ayup.
 
“and there are deniers that know more than you, some on here maybe.”
 
LOL, no, none here.  Definitely not you or Tom.
 
“The worlds greatest mathematician cannot make 2+ 2 equal to 5.”
 
Yet somehow you can make 26=100’s.  


“Its not fair, I know.”
 
That you don’t know what you are talking about?  Yes, that is sad.
Michael B. Added Apr 17, 2018 - 9:15pm
And while that subject is discussed for the nth time other genocides take place no fucking body cares.
 
Amazingly, I agree with Stone-Eater on this one, lol.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 17, 2018 - 9:23pm
Well, if Stone-Eater would write it, I’d read it.
Michael B. Added Apr 17, 2018 - 9:31pm
The Hitchhiker's Guide to Genocides, or Genocide: What's in it for You? would be good titles. I thought about taking a crack at it some time ago, but the room's already kind of crowded. A post about Salon Kitty would be more like it from me, lol.
A. Jones Added Apr 17, 2018 - 10:27pm
And while that subject is discussed for the nth time other genocides take place no fucking body cares. Amazingly, I agree with Stone-Eater on this one, lol.
 
LOL! Holocausts are so humorous, no? LOL!!!
 
Keep in mind that the other holocausts Stone-Shitter has in mind don't have groups of deniers claiming the various exterminations and ethnic cleansings were hoaxes perpetrated by a specific group for the purpose of bilking western governments of billions in aid and restitution. So it isn't that "nobody cares" about those other holocausts; it's that they don't require constant debunking of revisionist bias and denials.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Apr 18, 2018 - 3:06am
A. Jones aka Marilyn whatever her fuckin' name is today truly adds to any thread. What she adds doesn't seem to be of much value however. 
 
One must wear a fireproof suit within sight of her.
Thomas Napers Added Apr 18, 2018 - 6:33am
Glad to read my comment made you think.  If it’s cathartic, I suppose you should write about anything that interests you.  However, be advised, in posting this article to an anti-Semitic website like this one, all you’re going to do is attract anti-Semites, full of ridiculous and cruel thoughts.  It’s like leave food out on the kitchen counter and being surprised when it attracts cockroaches and mice into your home.   
 
If I want to learn about the Holocaust, I'll go to a museum or pick up a history textbook from a reputable source.  So outside of the title and maybe a few paragraphs, I never read your articles.  
Doug Plumb Added Apr 18, 2018 - 6:46am
Thomas, stop confusing facts with feelings. It creates the typical confusion of a communist. Whether or not someone believes in the holocaust or not has nothing to do with their feelings about Jews. The holocaust either adds up or it doesn't, irrespective of how you feel about it.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 18, 2018 - 6:47am
This is not an "anti semitic" website. God help us.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 18, 2018 - 6:51am
re "Hey, Doug, is there some sort of new math that I’m not aware of where 26=100’s?  I’ll look at your link later."
 
You are right, I had heard hundreds on a radio talk show and believed it without checking. 26 or hundreds, the principle is still the same.
 
Even the most casual history student, and I am that, knows what happened at the Nuremberg tribunals. No way truth comes out in war, it is the first casualty of war. News comes from the Army War Propaganda Department. As far as the tortures, there is a doc on youtube, I'll find it for you. I've known this long before youtube came into existence.
Are you suggesting that the Nuremberg trials were somehow fair and didn't coax confessions with torture?
Doug Plumb Added Apr 18, 2018 - 6:56am
Jeffrey, I want to know why you think the West should be paying Jews for the holocaust. Is it because the countries did not put Jewish interests ahead of their own strategic interests during the war ?
Doug Plumb Added Apr 18, 2018 - 6:57am
Why aren't Jews paying Russians for the Bolshevik revolution?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 18, 2018 - 7:16am
@Thomas Napers:
Guess what?  I don’t give a damn if you read what I write or not.  You are not hurting my feelings, Thomas.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 18, 2018 - 7:43am
@Doug Plumb:
”Thomas, stop confusing facts with feelings.”
 
Yeah, Thomas.  Doug is confused enough already.
 
 
“It creates the typical confusion of a communist.”
 
Who’s a Communist?
 
“The holocaust either adds up or it doesn't, irrespective of how you feel about it.”
 
Is that like the nuclear weapons thing?
 
“re "Hey, Doug, is there some sort of new math that I’m not aware of where 26=100’s? I’ll look at your link later."

You are right, I had heard hundreds on a radio talk show and believed it without checking. 26 or hundreds, the principle is still the same.”
 
There’s an enormous difference between 26 and hundreds, Doug.
 
“Even the most casual history student, and I am that,”
 
LOL, no, you are not.
 
“knows what happened at the Nuremberg tribunals.”
 
What happened at Nuremberg, Doug?
 
“As far as the tortures, there is a doc on youtube,”
 
Awesome, we all know how historically accurate YouTube videos are.  Is that where you learned about nukes?
 
“I'll find it for you.”
 
Goody, just make sure it’s not six hours long.  
 
“I've known this long before youtube came into existence.”
 
Sure you did.
 
“Are you suggesting that the Nuremberg trials were somehow fair”
 
Well, the Allies and Soviets faced two possible solutions for the Germans after the war.  One was to execute out of hand all of the Nazi heads of state and military they could find or put them on trial.  I don’t know about you but a trial beats a bullet every single time.  Nuremberg didn’t hand out a death sentence to all of the defendants, Doug.  
 
“and didn't coax confessions with torture?”
 
I know Konrad Morgen was tortured, I know Rudolf Hoess was tortured.  This happened before the trial.  Other than that, no.  If you have proof, show me.


“Jeffrey, I want to know why you think the West should be paying Jews for the holocaust.”
 
Who says I think that?
 
“Why aren't Jews paying Russians for the Bolshevik revolution?”
 
Why should they?
Doug Plumb Added Apr 18, 2018 - 8:32am
re "I know Konrad Morgen was tortured, I know Rudolf Hoess was tortured.  This happened before the trial.  Other than that, no.  If you have proof, show me."
 
Ok. what do you need from me? I did not mean to say that defendents had their balls in a vice while on the witness stand. Torture is used to extract confessions which are then used during the trial. We are in agreement, what do you need from me?
 
If Jews are taking money for what was done to them, should they not pay when they do the same to others?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 18, 2018 - 9:32am
@Doug Plumb:
”Ok. what do you need from me? I did not mean to say that defendents had their balls in a vice while on the witness stand. Torture is used to extract confessions which are then used during the trial. We are in agreement, what do you need from me?”
 
We are?  How was Hoess’s confession used at the Nuremberg Trial?  He wasn’t a defendant at Nuremberg, only a witness.  Morgen also wasn’t a defendant, in fact, he was never charged with anything.  
 
These were the defendants at Nuremberg:
Martin Bormann   Alfred Jodl
Karl Doenitz         Ernst Kaltenbrunner
Hans Frank           Wilhelm Keitel
Wilhelm Frick.       Erich Raeder
Hans Fritzsche       Alfred Rosenberg
Walter Funk           Fritz Sauckel
Herman Goering    Artur Seyss-Inquart
Rudolph Hess         Albert Speer
Julius Streicher      Franz von Papen
Constantin von Neurath
Joachim von Ribbentrop
Baldur von Schirach
 
Which one of these defendants were tortured and what is the proof?
 
 
 
 
“If Jews are taking money for what was done to them, should they not pay when they do the same to others?”
 
WTF are you talking about?
Doug Plumb Added Apr 18, 2018 - 10:46am
“If Jews are taking money for what was done to them, should they not pay when they do the same to others?”
Bolshevik Revolution was a Jewish revolution.
 
I'm just not really prepared to look at the whole Neuremberg trial again. I've looked at it before and read about it. I've been looking for the figures on how much Canadian citizens pay to holocaust survivors and cannot find any figures. Strange because it was in the news many years ago and I confirmed it with a top CRA agent in person.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 18, 2018 - 10:47am
The 70 years is up by common law standards, no one should have to pay any more money for the holocaust by Western standards. We are not required to pay for the sins of our fathers under Western law. But the march goes on...
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 18, 2018 - 12:29pm
@Doug Plumb:
”“If Jews are taking money for what was done to them, should they not pay when they do the same to others?
Bolshevik Revolution was a Jewish revolution.”
 
Wrong.

“I'm just not really prepared to look at the whole Neuremberg trial again.”
 
Of course not.
 
I've been looking for the figures on how much Canadian citizens pay to holocaust survivors and cannot find any figures. Strange because it was in the news many years ago and I confirmed it with a top CRA agent in person.”
 
I’m sure you did.
Stone-Eater Added Apr 18, 2018 - 2:41pm
"Jones"
 
Keep in mind that the other holocausts Stone-Shitter
 
You're an asshole, you know ? Your write one fucking comment here and the only thing you do it insulting me. All others write and comment with open POV's and often good knowledge.
 
Do you think that you're being taken seriously that way ? I guess not. Why ? Because you're the only one using such insults on an otherwise excellent thread without even adding something substantial.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 18, 2018 - 3:38pm
Jeffrey, if witnesses are tortured before a trial, how can the trial be considered lawful?
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 18, 2018 - 4:27pm
Two, Doug.  
 
I’ll need to check but Hoess’s statement after his torture wasn’t added to evidence.
Stone-Eater Added Apr 18, 2018 - 4:30pm
Jeffrey
 
Thanks, I will write about other genocides but I have to concentrate on one which concerns me directly because I know people who have been in that horror - Ruanda. Give me some time :-)
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 18, 2018 - 4:32pm
Sorry, Stone.  I didn’t catch that.  It was uncalled for.
 
I don’t delete comments so I’ll leave it.  I don’t mind snarky comments or insults, in particular towards myself....;)......but try and keep it somewhat civil.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 18, 2018 - 4:33pm
Stone-Eater, I really want to know more.  If no one else wants to discuss it you and I can.  
Doug Plumb Added Apr 18, 2018 - 4:39pm
re "Two, Doug.  
 
I’ll need to check but Hoess’s statement after his torture wasn’t added to evidence.  "
 
So if a witness was tortured for information and that information or witness was not actually used, we are to trust this court? There is a way to conduct honest court and only honest court leads to truth. Man will say anything under torture, he will say the things the torturer wants them to say, everyone breaks.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 18, 2018 - 4:40pm
This is fruit of a poisoned tree.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 18, 2018 - 4:52pm
@Doug Plumb:
”So if a witness was tortured for information and that information or witness was not actually used, we are to trust this court?”
 
Yes, because the court recognized the impropriety and declined to use.  The men who tortured Hoess should have been arrested and charged.  They were not, that was a tragedy but had nothing to do with Nuremberg.
 
“There is a way to conduct honest court and only honest court leads to truth. Man will say anything under torture, he will say the things the torturer wants them to say, everyone breaks.”
 
True but irrelevant.


“This is fruit of a poisoned tree.”
 
Not if it isn’t used.  Hoess wasn’t the only witness, Doug.
A. Jones Added Apr 18, 2018 - 6:21pm
All others write and comment with open POV's and often good knowledge.
 
You don't write with an open POV, and your knowledge is lousy.
 
In any case, I didn't mean to write "Stone-Shitter." That was a typo. I meant to write, "Shit-Eater."
 
Happy now?
Pardero Added Apr 18, 2018 - 6:41pm
A. Jones,
Surely, there must be more suitable venues for a mean spirited troll. It is likely, that many people differ with some opinions expressed here, but have the couth and class to avoid vulgar school-boy taunts, or don't comment at all.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 18, 2018 - 7:23pm
A. Jones:
I’m rather fond of Stone-Eater even though I frequently disagree with him.  I don’t mind snarky comments but please refrain from abusive language.
 
Thank you.
A. Jones Added Apr 18, 2018 - 11:31pm
please refrain from abusive language
 
Abusive? Moi?
 
Surely, there must be more suitable venues for a mean spirited troll.
 
You mean Stone-Eater? I don't know. Except for WriterBeat, who else would have him?
Bill H. Added Apr 19, 2018 - 12:32pm
 
SEF always provides us with a valuable international view that apparently some can't handle.
I for one value his input as we all should, rather than marching around in a trance waving our flags like we are the rulers of the world.
Keep it coming, SEF!
Maybe a few more lightbulbs will illuminate.
A. Jones Added Apr 19, 2018 - 8:19pm
SEF always provides us with a valuable international view
 
Really? Posts such as "The Swiss are all racists" is a valuable international view in your opinion?
 
To each his own.
Bill H. Added Apr 20, 2018 - 12:45am
I'm sure from his side that what he sees written here by many Americans could make one wonder "what the fuck are they thinking?"
Flying Junior Added Apr 20, 2018 - 3:32am
How about Sin-Eater?
11b40 Added Apr 23, 2018 - 11:20am
All this discussion is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the point of a pin.
The real question is "why".  Why have the Jews been persecuted all through history?  Why does the term Shylock paint an immediate picture?  Is it simply some accident in history that time and time again Jews are driven from countries?  The world is filled with "minorities", but none seem so reviled and uniformly driven out.
 
Maybe our historians can explain.  After all, the title of the article is "Why?".
Jeffrey Kelly Added Apr 23, 2018 - 2:13pm
@11b40:
”The real question is "why".  Why have the Jews been persecuted all through history?”
 
They remain as the largest non-Christian denomination in primarily Christian countries (or were), their diets and dress are different (for the truly Orthodox) and they were forced historically to engage in practices not tied to land ownership.  So, they went into the financial field or academic careers.
 
I recently read Gotz Aly’s “Why the Germans?  Why the Jews?”  One of his arguments was that Jews were more literate and free-thinking because of the emphasis on reading and writing plus debating the finer points of Jewish scripture.  It encouraged critical thinking and logic.  I think that is valid, deviating from Christian doctrine brought charges of heresy whereas new interpretations of Jewish scripture was considered innovation.
 
But your thinking is very limited.  Minorities always suffer, we can see the forced expulsions of both Jews and Muslims after the Spanish Reconquista, the persecution of the Huguenots in France, the persecution of Catholics in Britain, the persecution of the Native Americans, all of these point to a very basic need in homogeneous societies to purge themselves of the outsider.