Ongoing concerns with Agenda 21 and collectivist approaches to land use

If property rights are near and dear to you I suggest you read the entire UN Agenda 21 "Sustainable Development" document which was produced in 1992.  In the 25+ years since, this document has had a major impact upon land and property development throughout the world.  I've debated people on a variety of concepts over the last few months, here are just a few things I take exception to:

1- Land Value Tax deployment to an extreme - The LVT concept makes the most sense in urban areas to pressure for dense construction and to limit land speculation.  But many LVT/Agenda 21 proponents see this as a tool for rural areas also.  A goal is to force compression of farms to high output factory models, with a return of much land to collective ownership to have wide spans of "human free" zones.  Rural areas have a lot of unused land - that is what makes them rural.  An LVT deployed in this manner is an anti-homesteading tool.

2- Elimination of users fees, further socialization of transportation - This I see as an extremely backwards approach.  Search for an FEE article about the distorting effects of transportation subsidies.  Truth is we have already been wasting a lot of energy and other resources due to the socialized approach to transportation.  The solution to gain efficiency is not to concentrate more power into the hands of city planners, but to fight harder to apply market approaches, so that NO transportation costs are externalized/socialized and everyone pays their full and honest costs to move people or goods.

3- Tragedy of the commons - Land is a fixed resource so the argument goes that the collective good should be watched out for.  But collective ownership all too often creates a disincentive to take good care of property.  I much prefer private ownership of land, including mineral rights. Some argue about the "fairness" of land ownership, especially when land is passed down from generation to generation, but I don't see collective ownership as a solution.

4- Pollution management - This is where we need to work hard to make sure that land/property owners are liable for abuse which is inflicted upon others.  Here again the tragedy of the commons applies.  The US military is the world's biggest polluter.  The Agenda 21 concept to compress people into urban areas and allow for vast swaths of land to go back to the federal government here in the US (only 4% of land area east of the Mississippi is federally owned now, much more out west) is likely to fail to improve the environment.  Private property rights, with a proper rule of law for bad practices, offers more liberty, freedom, and quality of life and can still give us sustainable outcomes.

5- Anti-automobile approaches are short sighted.  Light rail doesn't improve efficiency when people still need cars to drive in and out of rail terminals, and empty rail cars result in more resource usage per mile traveled.  Again we should strive to get rid of subsidies and allow market improvements.  Zoning laws also can be a big detriment to problems of urban sprawl and waste.  If all options were open and all pricing was honest, would middle class workers live in large houses far removed from their place of employment if they were paying the full price for road construction and maintenance?  Likely not. Socialized pricing approaches for road O & M costs are more to blame than the automobile itself.


In summary private land ownership has more merit that collective ownership.  Transportation costs must use strict, easily accountable user fee approaches (a toll for a limited access highway will see less cheating and abuse than a fuel tax system, for example).  Environmental efficiency maximizes with economic efficiency in most all cases when all costs are properly accounted for and proper liability for damages are assigned.


Centralized planning and control attracts corrupt, power hungry people.  Even if the people involved are benevolent and honest, bad decisions too often happen because all variables and unintended consequences are not properly accounted for.  HONEST market approaches with proper assignment of costs, risks, and liabilities will do us better for a sustainable future.


Pardero Added Apr 16, 2018 - 5:59pm
Rich Purtell, 
I know many people who believe Agenda 21 is an insidious threat to liberty. 
Overpopulation leads to many evils, Agenda 21 is another way to cope with too much growth. We need to stop illegal immigration and reduce legal immigration to around zero. We are fully settled and don't need to hurry along our resource depletion. 
Infinite growth with finite resources is madness. We were blessed with abundant resources. If we squander them, we will be another Easter Island, or take from those with many natural resources...
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 16, 2018 - 7:50pm
Agenda 21 is part of one world government, where the intent is to distribute world populations.  
Fiscal policy is the flip side of monetary policy.  Think of it like two sides of a coin.  They go together and cannot be talked about separately.
Debt free money has many benefits, and its counter is the take up in taxes.   So, whenever we talk about taxes, then the next question is what is monetary policy.
Note that the Agenda 21 people are for corporate "international bank credit" and the discussion never comes up on their money type.  False assumptions need to be addressed before a debate even begins.  
A sovereign economy has its own money, and its own taxes, and distributes based on what is good for its own people.  
Money's true nature is law, and hence your law cannot exend past  your borders.  So, these corporate "internationalists" engage in deception from the very get-go.    They assume the money power, then assume the tax power, and assume legal power.  
They doth assume much.
Bill H. Added Apr 16, 2018 - 8:34pm
The wise move is to curb population growth. It's the ONLY thing that is logical unless you are only looking at financial gain. Exactly why logic has no place in society anymore.
The more people we have inhabiting this planet, the more pollution and less resources we have.
Gerrilea Added Apr 17, 2018 - 12:47am
Rich P-- Great article & discussion.  If people understood what is at steak here, they'd be up in arms, literally.  Thanks for shining a light into this truly dark corner.
Rosa Koire, a lesbian democrat, wrote "Behind The Green Mask". She gives you the gritty details of Agenda 21 It was her book that enlightened me to charade of "going green". Private ownership of land will be abolished and so much more.
She has a great video-lecture out that gives you a good primer AND believe you me... YOU need to watch it.
Bill H--  So, if "over-population" is the crux of the problem, what solutions do you put forth "to curb population growth"?
Eugenics, China's 1-child policy, vaccines that make you infertile, drugs in the water, air or food that does the same thing???
Does the US constitution allow for these kinds of policies brought to bear against the entire population?
Pardero Added Apr 17, 2018 - 12:58am
Bill didn't say or imply that. The US could have nearly zero population growth if we stop immigration. 
Gerrilea Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:33am
Pardero-- He said, "it's a wise move to curb population growth".  I asked what solutions does he suggest or put forth?  I gave a list of things I've heard of but maybe he has some others he'd like implemented.
Please understand the difference here.  I'm not accusing him of anything, just asking the question.  If we are to "tackle" this alleged problem, then how do we best accomplish it?  Does our government have the authority to do so?
You see, people tell us we have a problem and often times the solution is 1000x worse.  Like the war on drugs, the war on terror, the war on poverty, etc, etc, etc.
At what point do we say, enough is enough?  Our government cannot fix life's problems, it never was designed to do that.
Pardero Added Apr 17, 2018 - 2:12am
You are right.
Many areas of the world, have naturally slowed down population growth, as they reach a certain population density.
If some nations take excess from rapidly growing nations, the natural cycle is disabled. It could be, that the nations accepting immigrants, are actually helping to spur population growth.
Our government merely needs to do what the Constitution delegates to it. One thing is border control. We no longer have homestead land available, and a huge west to be settled. 
The Constitution is for Americans. 
I learned a long time ago, that I can't carry the world on my scrawny shoulders. Nor can America carry the world. 
Help them where they live, with non-taxpayer money, i.e. private charities. 
To my knowledge, the Constitution does not mention charity. It should be up to the People to decide if they wish to admit more foreigners. We have plenty of people, if we double in 20 years, we will face food shortages, housing shortages, landfill shortages, water shortages, increased deforestation, more roads, more fuel usage, and on and on. 
The Constitution is only appropriate for a moral people, it was said. We become cheek to jowl, the Constitution would have to be compromised. Eminent domain would run amok. Agenda 21 would run amok. Hobby farms on the edge of town would have to be siezed for multi-family housing. Farms, maybe parks turned into landfills. 
We are facing a Soylent Green world, in which the Constitution could not be compatible. A police state would be required. 
At some point, even a police state would fail, in case of famine or natural disaster, in the case of extremely dense populations. If we hesitate, we won't be handing down the same country that we inherited, instead, it would be profoundly different.
We can act now, Constitutionally and legally, or we can face a dystopian future.
Neil Lock Added Apr 17, 2018 - 4:26am
Nice article, Rich. Couldn't agree more about Agenda 21 and all that goes with it. (I once read the damned thing. I don't recommend the experience).
One thing that mystifies me. Why are so many here hung up about over-population, when virtually all countries in the Western world (and quite a few more besides) have birth rates below the replacement level? Even those that are taking in many immigrants...
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 4:57am
Agenda 21 is a document written by people who have their own well being to be concerned about and the way the world is managed and robbed shows their true attitude toward common men. They hate common people and want most of us destroyed because if we cannot benefit them from our labour which won't be needed in a robot age, why have us around?
Most of all, they hate the common law. They are chosen by God to rule over mankind and the common law stands in ideological opposition to this. White people have a natural belief that all people should be equal before the law. This stands in opposition to a Talmudic based government ruling everyone by Noahide law. Noahide law has been celebrated in US congress.
Over population is a total crock of shit. We are nowhere near being overpopulated and general statistics show people only replace themselves when living in a comfortable modern society. Its the third world that overpopulates because they keep getting bombed and robbed by these globalists.
Agenda 21, now Agenda 2030 is a huge threat to the well being of mankind in general.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 4:59am
I watched a video on VHS of a meeting in Brazil with these elites. One of the Rothschild's answered a question about rights "By the time we are finished you will not have the rights of a tree". Its true.
Gerrilea Added Apr 17, 2018 - 8:00am
Neil Lock-- That was my understanding as well, we don't have a population problem and the reality is we ARE far below replacement levels.  If the West hadn't allowed millions of "refugees" & "immigrants" in, their/our system would collapse.
US Fertility:
     "...U.S. fertility first dropped to less than replacement level
     fertility in 1972,11 and by 2002 had dropped to a record low.19
     (Replacement level fertility is 2.1 children per woman because
     of infant mortality - see terms). During most of the 1970s and
     1980s women gave birth to fewer than 2 children on average,
     a rate insufficient to replace the population.11, 12
     Immigration is the largest factor contributing to population
     growth in the U.S. Immigration contributes over 2.25 million
     people to the U.S. population annually
Half the World's Population Below Replacement Levels
     "...In fact, contemporary fertility around the globe is lower
     than it has ever been. Since the middle of the 20th century,
     childbearing has declined by 50 percent...."
Pardero-- Please take a look at the above referenced materials.  We do not have a population growth problem, in fact, the world is well below replacement levels...MEANING there will be a population collapse within the next 3 generations...worldwide.
When you understand the numbers and the facts, you'll then see why neither party, "D" or "R" will stop illegal and legal immigration to this nation.  THEY ARE RUNNING OUT OF TAX SLAVES.
Then you'll also understand why they're going after Russia and why the Russians banned GMO's, banned the US from adopting Russian children, etc. 
The Russians know what's coming AND so do the Chinese.
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 17, 2018 - 11:53am
The reason the west allows in immigrants is an elephant in the room that nobody is talking about.  
The debt money system is something like walking inside of a funnel.  It wants to create more debt in the future, to pay for past debt.   Not all debt instruments are hypothecated into new bank credit, but many are  - especially against land and housing (about 70% of all debts are related to land/housing).  
So, the funnel sucks from the future, and passes it back to the past, satisfying older bond holders and those holding land and capital assets.
Bringing in new labor allows the owner class to take wage arbitrage on their life energy.  This arbitrage drives down labor prices, and the difference is skimmed to become "earnings."  This is also the mechanism used also to shift jobs to China.
Simultaneously new immigrants suck off of welfare tit, which cost shifts onto the middle class.  Financial oligarchy then retreats to its walled compounds, and virtue signals about how great immigration is.  Meanwhile, these elites are taking rents in the form of arbitrage, destroying social cohesion, and stealing the patrimony from the past.  
This owner class is for immigration to then hold up their capital assets, as immigrating third world labor holds down labor price, while it also creates a new group of people who are put into new debts.  This new immigrant group is quiescent because they are "not white people" and also are under debt load. White's generally are more independent minded as a racial group.  Asian's explode into fury only under extreme duress.  Mestizo's are very quiescent with a "Si senior" attitude.  
Note that both China and Russia are separating from Western Federal Reserve/Worldwide private banking system.  They are doing this slowly but surely.  
Pardero is right, in that the West would naturally find population balance, especially because white people are selected by fourth ice ages to have  a forward time preference.  North East Asians (Hans) and Whites especially have this delayed gratification/forward time preference as per their group evolution.  
These K selected populations DO NOT have children, unless they see a future where it is economically viable to do so.  In fact, if things are bad enough, this population goes into reverse, and numbers can implode quickly.
If one looks at African population increase it is a real problem going forward to the future, and since most people are too afraid to talk about the money system or racial differences, then real solutions will be avoided like the plague. 
Western Elites WANT to own the world's resources... they want to own it all.  Messianic greed is part of this as they adopt religions that give them sanction and cover.  At some point in near future, even labor arbitrage won't be enough, instead full automation will provide for all their needs. 
Remember, this "wanting it all" is predicated on a lie.  The lie is that money must be created at debt, and it must be international.  The big lie is that money must extend past borders and become international.   You must not understand this lie at all costs.
So we are walking inside of a funnel, which in itself is artificial, and then we have to accept lies as if they are reality.    
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 17, 2018 - 12:08pm
The lie is money is created at debt, within a private corporation.  These stock owned corporations create debts that redound to them for "profit" benefit, and not for the commons, or the sovereign needs of a population.  
Thus a nation cannot easily do long range planning, or even take a generational view to limit immigration or stop it completely.  New money does not flow into the commons but instead it may push prices or increase rent taking/usury.  
Since money's true nature is law, then the law was usurped.   Sovereignty is lost.  Extending your law past your borders  to make your money "international" guarantees war, and "one world government."  Europe is a perfect example, of the "private corporate model" creating non-sovereign institutions like that now  residing in Brussels.   
China has four large state banks, and hence debt instruments lodged within these public institutions are easily erased.  This is a secret of China's economy, and one large reason why the West will lose this war.  
Jeffry Gilbert Added Apr 17, 2018 - 12:08pm
government cannot fix life's problems
It does exactly the opposite. It creates problems so it can offer so-called solutions that - cause more problems. 
Government is the problem.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:32pm
Gerrilea, why do you think US birth rates are so low ? Militant Feminism? What if a guy gets married to a psychopath? She takes his kids, his house and his money, it doen't matter if there is no evidence supporting her accusations. Why don't more guys get married? Lots of girls want to be married.
What usually happens after marriage? kids or divorce?
Every Western institution is being destroyed.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:36pm
MEFOBILL's good points about money. If you are not a monetary reformist then you do not understand the world around you.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:38pm
I wanted to be married, and I wanted to date women long enough to find out they are not monsters, and you can never really tell until you see someone operate in a crisis. None of them stuck with me long enough for me to find out. I wasn't going to marry someone who may be a psychopath and I wanted children.
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:43pm
Government run amok is the problem.  Government's role is inelastic markets.  Those markets are natural monopolies and hence competition DOES NOT lower prices.  
High prices and rent-seeking is the problem, which then funds government to be usurped.  This is exactly the case of today.
Plutocracy issues hypnosis that free markets are God, and government = the problem, so that they may continue to take thefts.  A good parasite will steal in the open, under sanctioned law, and make you believe it is essentially to the body.  
These same plutocrats will then pass further hypnosis that they must own previously paid for commons, and that then creates a revenue stream forever.   The recent passing of airports and commons in Greece to a foreign owner class (German's) raises prices and lowers Greek standard of living, while creating a class of Plutocrats in Germany.  
Getting law changed is simply a matter of pay-off's and bribes, and is especially easy if you own the money power. 
There is no argument against in-elastic markets, they MUST be government regulated or owned to have lowest price.    There is no argument against government sovereign money, as it is part of the commons, which in turn is inelastic. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:47pm
Government run amok is the problem. 
Exactly. Its the nature of government to run amok.       
As they've all run amok my premise stands. 
George N Romey Added Apr 17, 2018 - 1:57pm
What this leads to is 90% of the population living in polluted and chaotic ghettos while the top 10% (or maybe a bit less) lives in lush, clean, well cared for green zones.  There was a television show on the SCI FI channel a couple years ago that had this as the basis for the plot.  That show isn't all that science fiction in my mind.  This is exactly what the elites want.
Ian Thorpe Added Apr 17, 2018 - 2:02pm
The only thing the sustainable world of Agenda 21 will sustain is the untouchable supremacy  of the entrenched elites. I've been writing about this and other aspects of the cultural Marxist agenda for years. People do seem to be waking up to what is happening but it's a low process.
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 17, 2018 - 2:07pm
As they've all run amok my premise stands. 
Your premise doesn't stand:
Hungary had a constitutional kingdom that began in the year 1000 under King Stephen and lasted to 1926.  It failed due to Treaty of Trianon, which like Versailles treaty was imposed by external actors.  
Libertarian orthodoxy is a-priori, where real history is cherry picked to make a case.  For example, the "it is good as a Continental" but then all accounts of Continental being counterfeited by British are written out of the narrative.  
Privateers nearly destroyed Russia in the 90's, and the only reason it is coming back to life, is the "power vertical" that Putin has installed.  This power vertical is federal in structure, with small local governments called oblasts, krais, and others.  
Any sort of complex organism has sensors, feedback, and some sort of intelligence network.  If not, it spins out of control.  
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 4:02pm
The best way to learn what the elites want is to read their policy papers, the next best thing is to watch Hollywood science fiction on the big screen. Nothing about the Blue Screen Of Truth or mainstream newspapers has anything to do with any truth at all. Its just stupid.
Doug Plumb Added Apr 17, 2018 - 4:03pm
The whole capitalism vs communism is a false dialectic. Pure capitalism would be as rotten as pure communism.
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 17, 2018 - 4:56pm
The whole capitalism vs communism is a false dialectic. Pure capitalism would be as rotten as pure communism.
Doug, news-flash.  Finance capitalism funded the Bolsheviks.  Communism was funded into existence by finance capital out of Wall street and London.  Of course it is a dialectic.
  And the usual suspects were foot-soldiers for the "change" they wanted.
Even today, Frankfurt School Cultural Communism is funded by the same finance in-group.
The only economies in history that were successful were MIXED economies.  Government has to be present with regulating or owning  in-elastic sectors - that is just the way it is.
  But, government has little business sticking its nose into elastic sectors, as price competition is readily available.   
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:06pm
. None of them stuck with me long enough for me to find out. I wasn't going to marry someone who may be a psychopath and I wanted children.
I'm sorry about that.  Frankfurt School Cultural Communists have been busy punking women into thinking they are equal to men.  When in fact, men and women have different roles.  Women are not equal economic actors to men.
It is the same people who funded Communism into existence, who also are busy funding hypnosis to women, children, and minorities.  Their latest schtick is that White Men are to die off, thus creating conflict between families.  In effect, is is an external psychosis megaphoned into the ears of those who are easily manipulated.  
There was as study done in Europe, where 10,000 women were asked political questions.  They were stunningly ignorant, and the younger they were, the more ignorant.  
Women are not evolved to protect the frontiers, or to compete with men in the workplace.  They are softer, more easily swayed with emotion,... but this natural role for women has been usurped by finance capital which wanted new debtors.  These new female debtors entered the marketplace in the late 60's and early 70's behind the trumpet call of Frankfurt school lies.
Now we have to accept a third bathroom for those who are unsure of their sex, because you know ....everything is relative and nature can be forced to fit the made up narrative. 
It's not you.   You are OK.    
George N Romey Added Apr 17, 2018 - 5:17pm
This all ends if people were smart enough to walk away from debt peonage. It’s how the elites gain control. A jubilee likely forced is coming. The problem as I see it is the elites haven’t figured out to continue their wealth creation through rents once the economic system and consequently society collapses. Sure they can go off to their private islands and bunkers while the mayhem exists but their days of garnering more wealth will be over. And that’s assuming the starving masses don’t find them and shop off their heads. Don’t think we’ve outgrown our ability to animalistic in nature. 
Bill H. Added Apr 17, 2018 - 10:44pm
Gerriela - Most likely the best start to curb population growth would be to initially hit people where it hurts worst - their pocketbook.
How about a tax system where the tax rate increases when you have more than one child per household, say 5% more for the first child, 15% for the second child, and 30% for the third child?
We need to change the mindset that having loads of kids is not cool. We all end up paying for every families excessive amount of kids in many aspects, be it insurance costs, food costs, more pollution, more traffic, less resources, and the list goes on.
I'll be dead and gone before all of this hits home and people realize "What the fuck were we thinking?"
Just looking ahead.
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 18, 2018 - 12:51am
You say this:
Pardero-- Please take a look at the above referenced materials.  We do not have a population growth problem, in fact, the world is well below replacement levels...MEANING there will be a population collapse within the next 3 generations...worldwide.
But you ignore this:
Look at the charts for concentrations of growth... they are in Africa. 
Look at the charts by race.  European and America are a tiny fraction of the world population.  White people are a significant minority in the world.
Sorry, but it really is annoying when people don't consider race in their analysis.  Please stop being politically correct; lying by omission is still lying.  There are racial differences, even differences in fecundity.
The UN predicts there will be 4 Billion people in Africa by 2100.  These people will consume their continent, then spill out into Europe.  By then Europe will be hollowed out by demographic inversion - or it will have become Muslim.
Gerrilea Added Apr 18, 2018 - 1:02am
Bill H--- From the statistics & the projections, we will have a population collapse in less than 3 generations.  I provided links and info above. 
This planet can easily support 30 billion humans and to put this in a perspective that you can understand.  Take the square miles of Texas, each human alive today can have a parcel of land 90 feet by 60 feet.  That's every man, woman and child. This is only ground level.  Imagine if you went up 2 stories or 3.  The rest of the planet would be completely empty of humans. 
The only thing that we have to figure out better is how to recycle everything.  I'm all for renewable energy and recycling.  We have to move beyond the light water reactors & into thorium/fluoride salt reactors.
The biggest benefit is that you can't make nuclear weapons with them and they can be used to dispose of the waste we have created through the light water reactors.  Correction, they can reduce the waste by 90%.  And we could use them to reduce all human waste by almost 95%. Oh, and they can't melt down, not like Fukushima is still doing.
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 18, 2018 - 2:29am
This planet can easily support 30 billion humans and to put this in a perspective that you can understand
The planet cannot support 30 billion African's given their patterns.   You are ignoring race and behavior - stop it!
The other races are in demographic inversion - there is no population increase these cohorts.  India and Africa - focus there rather than grouping everything into one statistical pile.  Lying with numbers is not cool and distorts the truth of things.    
Jeffry Gilbert Added Apr 18, 2018 - 2:46am
Libertarian orthodoxy is a-priori, 
I'm neither a libertarian nor educated in Latin. Does the latter mean deductive?
At any rate your example seems to prove my premise. We're it not for some run amok government having the mistaken impression it had the "right" to impose itself where it had no business there wouldn't have been a problem. 
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 18, 2018 - 3:29am
A priori means to make a deduction, then find evidence to support your theory.
With scientific method, if there is data that refutes your theory, you have to throw it out, or adjust accordingly.  In other words a-priori is bad science, and "agenda" driven.
My example destroys your premise.  Man has a dual nature, and will take rents if he can.  Man is a rent-seeker.  I gave you an example of s civilization that restrained man's impulses for nearly 1000 years and did not implode on its own.  During that 1000 years, the people lived relatively peacefully in their Carpathian redoubt.  Also, they held off Muslim hoards, protecting Europe and allowing it to develop.  
The other example I gave was an economic truism, that inelastic markets must be regulated.  Without this regulation, then monopoly will arise, then prices will be driven high - and you lose your economic freedom.   
Jeffry Gilbert Added Apr 18, 2018 - 4:01am
One must admit my economics classes made my eyes roll back in my head but I had to force myself to regurgitate what the prof wanted to see so I could get on with the real business of driving my ship.
The unnecessary complexity economic and legal theory imposes on those of us who are under the thumb of the regulators and lawmakers who take that seriously is but another arrow in the quiver of Statists who have the misguided notion that governments somehow have the "right" to impose their will upon us. 
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 18, 2018 - 10:45am
Yes of course Statism happens.  Why?  The very things you espouse create the statism you so hate.  Free-dumb to create private money, Free-dumb to allow in-groups to form monopoly, Free-dumb to give away national rights to foreign interlopers.  Your rights stop the moment they intrude on others. Who enforces those limits?  Real freedom includes low prices and access to life - nothing in your worldview provides for that.
Government is the problem ...  a simple platitude which is core tenet of Libertarianism.  Libertarianism in turn is a dialectic created by our banking friends.   Sounds great and less fattening - but also deadly.  
The founding fathers knew government was a "necessary evil" so if you hate statism, your task is to find out where government went wrong.  I can point you in the right direction, but not until you are ready to focus your eyes, and keep them from "'rolling back in your head."  Most of us, me included, were programmed in skoool with narratives at variance with reality.  It takes some effort to break free.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Apr 18, 2018 - 11:36am
your task is to find out where government went wrong
Therein you are wrong. 
My task is to live out my remaining years as happily as possible. 
To that end I moved halfway around the world to a place that gives zero fucks about me as long as I renew my visa every year. I takes nothing from me and requires nothing of me other than the above stated requirement. In nearly 20 years of living here I can count the times I have spoken directly with some government POS on one hand. 
I comply with the one requirement as a matter of choice. I choose to because it makes my life easier to comply not out of any sense of duty. Were I not to do so the maximum penalty is $600 were I to be caught. I have never had anyone demand my passport the entire time I have lived here. 
I drive how I want, when I want, where I want, with or without a helmet if I choose to ride my motorcycle or at 200k if I choose to drive my car. Never been stopped. 
My neighbors gossip like hell about us at our properties both here at the beach and in the city because of our unusual lifestyle (naturism) but have never admonished our lack of clothing or suggested we do otherwise. 
I realized on May 4, 1970 there was no reasoning with gov't. That it was and remains evil. It will always be that way. So I got smart and went where I could minimize any intrusion.
Enjoy your acceptance of evil and I'll enjoy my rejection of it. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Apr 18, 2018 - 11:38am
Political authority, or the authority of State, or the authority of Government, is something the average person virtually never questions. Almost everyone goes through their entire life believing that the Government – although it’s almost always composed of provable criminals, cheats and liars – still has a solid basis for its political authority. Many people, whether left, right or anywhere in between on the political spectrum, are Statists: they think that Government has an inherent right to rule, using coercion if necessary. Yet, even a cursory examination shows that if a normal person acted like Government, they would characterized as cunning, secretive and manipulative, and either be diagnosed as insane, or locked up as a danger to society, or both. So why do people allow and consent to such a situation?
Jeffry Gilbert Added Apr 18, 2018 - 11:39am
“Nothing is more surprising than the easiness with which the many are governed by the few.”  David Hume
Jeffry Gilbert Added Apr 18, 2018 - 11:41am
"In all governments, there is a perpetual intestine struggle, open or secret, between Authority and Liberty; and neither of them can ever absolutely prevail in the contest. A great sacrifice of liberty must necessarily be made in every government; yet even the authority, which confines liberty, can never, and perhaps ought never, in any constitution, to become quite entire and uncontrollable.” - David Hume
Jeffry Gilbert Added Apr 18, 2018 - 11:42am
“No maxim is more comfortable … than to submit quietly to the government, which we find establish’d in the country where we happen to live, without enquiring too curiously into its origin and first establishment. Few governments will bear being examin’d so rigorously.” - David Hume
Jeffry Gilbert Added Apr 18, 2018 - 11:43am
Ultimately, why does Government deserve some kind of special moral status – that allows it charge, tax, fine, imprison and kill – when no other individual or organization in society is allowed to? Just because the State provides us with some benefits, why does it get the right to do these things? It’s a very difficult question to answer …
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 18, 2018 - 1:49pm
I can reduce your argument to a simple case:
A group of people land on an island.  They get along just fine for awhile.
Then my mother births half a dozen large alpha male sons.  I become a little psychotic and decide that I want to take the fishing lands for myself.  Let's assume that only one area of the island can produce fish.
I convince my tough brothers that we will corner the fishing grounds, to then extract a high fish price.
We keep other Island members away from the fishing grounds, so the price of fish goes high, especially as some Island members are going hungry.
I then decide that I like your daughter.  She looks juicy to me and I want her.  Since you are starving you trade her to me for a few fish.
I have now extracted usury on you, taking something for nothing.   I took your daughter through what was to me almost free fish.  She might even like it, since she is protected by an Alpha Male and his tribe.
You and the other Islanders go into revolt.  You then elect a Sheriff.  The Sheriff then bashes in my head, and perhaps you might even get your daughter back.
Congratulations, you just created a government, new law, and imposed force.  
And please, don't insult my intelligence by telling me the above scenario cannot or does not occur.  It occurs because of man's nature, not the nature of government.  You are reversing cause and effect.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Apr 18, 2018 - 2:08pm
 It occurs because of man's nature, not the nature of government.  
Government is made up of man. Man is evil in nature. Government is therefore evil in nature. 
As for your scenario perhaps you are correct. I have never practiced any of it nor do I associate with anyone who does. Perhaps in academia where the spats are so bitter because the stakes are so small that sort of shorebound nonsense is embraced. Never wanted to find out myself.
As Master I have held a great deal more power than you likely have or are aware of. Despite that awesome power the fastest way to get off my ship was to force me to issue you an order. 
My rules were pretty simple. Do your job. Leave your silly shit ashore. Do your job. By doing that they made more money and ate better than on any other ship in the company. They would walk through bulkheads for me from CM down to the lowest wiper. 
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 18, 2018 - 2:26pm
Government is made up of man. Man is evil in nature. Government is therefore evil in nature. 
NO,  Man has a dual nature.  He has to pick sides.  If he chooses the evil side - that is on him.  If government is overtaken by evil, then it will become evil.  Stop issuing simple minded platitudes - and quit reversing cause and effect.
I gave you an example of a government that didn't do evil on its people for some 900+ years.  If you follow the scientific method, then you are forced to re-evaluate your world view.  Your assertions do not stand up under scrutiny.  Worse, you assertions are the very ammunition that predators use to take rents on others.  Your platitudes are giving comfort and succor to evil.
aleksandr solzhenitsyn:
If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?
You have made a choice not to do evil, or be part of it- so in that regard I salute you.  I also am willing to destroy a piece of my heart, and stand on the non-evil side, even though it bears a high cost.  
Gerrilea Added Apr 19, 2018 - 1:56am
Mefobills-- FUNNY...It's a race issue, yet again...No, really it isn't.  Patterns of behavior, I'll grant you, but that's it.  Yes this planet can sustain 30 billion easily but we'll never get there.  TPTB will not allow it. 
Why do you think Western nations are losing population?  Patterns of conditioned behavior and abject slavery.  Add in a cocktail mix of the "modern" world with all the nice shinny (toxic) gadgets, "gardening made easy" with phosphates, vaccines and the GMO food....AND poof...human evolution stops.
Here's simple proof I'm correct.  You're not gonna like it I know but the truth is in the pudding:
From Wikipedia:
Black population as a percentage of total US population-
      In 1790 blacks were at 19.3% and today they are at 12.9%, it went as low as 9.7% in the 1930's.
Every race goes down when they come here and any "increases" today are from immigration alone.
That said--- Mefobills I actually agree with your final posting.
Man is both good and evil, full stop.
The key I've known for decades, one cannot exist without the other.  After all, didn't we CHOSE to create the world this way?
I've had a "devious" plan ever since that epiphany slapped me in the face.  TO create a world where evil wasn't required.
Maybe you'll both join me, ONCE you understand what I've just said.
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 19, 2018 - 2:39am
Black population in Africa is growing , and UN report predicts 4 Billion African's by 2100.  Some are revising it down to 2.7 Billion. 
Put it into the context of U.S. @ only "320 million."  The U.S. and the West, even China have low or no population growth, it is all "third world" increases. 
Also, here is a youtube that brings home the numbers with regards to immigration.  Immigration DOES NOTHING to reverse the worldwide trends, especially immigration from Africa.  Immigration is a net negative and has little benefit to the receiving country, despite erroneous platitudes from Brussels and other mouthpieces.  Why these politicians are such liars is beyond me.
Immigration, World Poverty and Gumballs.
So, any talk about taxes or methods of population control have to happen  "over there" not here.  Sorry my links are not easy to click on, you will have to copy and paste.  I especially recommend the gumballs video.
Gerrilea Added Apr 19, 2018 - 11:38am
Mefobills-- Immaterial, humanity is dying.  It is the way of the world.  99% of all species to have ever existed are extinct. It will happen to us...the difference is that I/we know it gonna happen.
Go ahead, put population controls everywhere except white nations and guess what?  We're still dying and will become extinct.
On a side note, I do see two parallel societies evolving right now.  The wealthy elite vs the rest of us.  They may survive a bit longer, hell maybe even a few thousand years longer....but they won't be human anymore.  And in the grand scheme of things, that's been their plan all along.
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 19, 2018 - 12:37pm
Your right in that the west may be too far gone.  It is feminized, judaized and financial "capitalism" ized.  Feminists are so crazed they welcome in Muslims, only to be raped later.  This is some sort of psycho-sexual fantasies gone wrong.  
Finance capitalism rapes the earth, to then pay exponential debts.  It also takes over governments and predicates un-civilized behavior, as humans are reduced to a price.
One thing is for sure though, immigrating unlike peoples causes social friction and general breakdown of society, hastening its demise.   America had an immigration cut-off in 1926 or so, it can be done again.
Also, this notion that immigrating replacement populations, as if there is some sort of magick soil, that people immediately become American's is preposterous on its face.  Immigrants bring their social, genetic, and associated racial intelligence's with them.  Racial diversity is not a strength.  North East Asians are an exception in that they also evolved for high trust during the fourth ice ages, but even then too many is bad, as they will sort themselves to an in-group.  
If high civilization were a board game, then there are rules to winning.  Do the wrong things - you lose.  
The wealthy elite have always been with us, but if they are a genetic and foreign elite, that is a disaster waiting to happen.  
Pardero Added Apr 19, 2018 - 12:48pm
I don't believe anyone is advocating "population controls,"except for voluntary ones through education. If someone wants to create an Easter Island, that is their business. If they wish to come to my territory and do the same, it is my business.
Some demographic groups sense overcrowding and slow down on reproduction. Other groups continue reproduction as long as they are healthy enough to reproduce. If their overpopulation is allowed to spill over into the areas of a self-limiting populations, it is a guaranteed eventual demise of the host population, because that population will always sense overcrowding.
Gerrilea Added Apr 19, 2018 - 9:28pm
Pardero-- Boy I wish you were correct on this:
     "...I don't believe anyone is advocating "population
     controls,"except for voluntary ones through education..."
Here, you might wish to revise that position, a tad.
Review and research the plans they have in store for's anything but voluntary.
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 19, 2018 - 9:45pm
The Elite think Humans are a plague on the earth, but nobody said they were smart.  These pseudo elites are sniffing their own gas.
If they don't have the mental digits to discern which populations are over-breeding, then there is nothing that can be done.  Whenever the elites pontificate with some of their preposterous notions, don't allow it to take root.
Every high tech advanced society (white and north east asian peoples primarily) are in population decline. 
Russia's decline has been so precipitous, that they now pay young families a stipend when they have children. Russia's military budget has been cut to help pay for these domestic programs.
Clearly, a different "elite" is in charge in Russia, than the one running the West.
Pardero Added Apr 19, 2018 - 10:00pm
I stand corrected, to a degree.
I differ with about half of those statements, agree with the rest. 
If the Third World wants to breed like locusts, fine, but let them sleep in the bed they made.
It is the ant and the grasshopper, Gerrilea. That simple.
Gerrilea Added Apr 19, 2018 - 10:59pm
Pardero & Mefobills-- Okay, you win...wait...I've always agree on that point, "let them sleep in the bed they made".
Now I know you both won't like this.  Mefobills, especially... 
They are smarter than the average bear...they don't want us to survive, as a majority.  They want the "inferiors" that have been conditioned for generations into servitude and slavery.  Ones that will accept their lord and masters without question.
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 19, 2018 - 11:42pm
This is more the reality.  The "Elites" take rents on the world through their "Capital."  They then use their capital to force a narrative.  
Here is a case of African's being used as new mercenaries:
Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) are reportedly recruiting thousands of African mercenaries to serve in their military adventurism overseas, including the bloody war on Yemen.
Petrodollars are recycled through African's to become mercs.  Simultaneously they will be brainwashed to become Muslims.  Young male African's want the money to start a family, so they are easy pickings.  
When things go bad, our elites will try to convince you that these mercs should immigrate to the U.S.   
This strategy is called "invade the world, invite the world."  It is predicated on the American population accepting enormous lies that insult our intelligence.  "These people will make good American's."   There are no race or cultural differences, etc. ad -nauseum.   Oh, and you should die off to make room for these new workers.
MEFOBILLS Added Apr 20, 2018 - 12:21am
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create a legal system for themselves   that authorizes it, and a moral code that glorifies it.
Frederic Bastiat
Pardero Added Apr 20, 2018 - 12:47am
Impressive quotes. I am at work. Be back much later.