Embassy move should have been tied to Israel agreeing to end new settlements

We might remind ourselves that during the time the Arabs controlled Jerusalem before 1967 they allowed no Jews access to their holiest site. Israel has always treated the Palestinians better than the Arabs would have treated the Jews. If they had the power there would have been genocide.

 

That said, I don't agree with Trump's decision to do move the US Embassy now because he lost a bargaining chip. Israel needs to stop building settlements if it does not want a permanent occupation and is gonna have more trouble as the years go by. The Move of the embassy should have been tied to Israel agreeing to end new settlements. As far as the Palestinians they need some pressure to end the status quo, I would begin by pushing to end the funding for their unique refugee agency. Phase it out stop subsidizing their struggle and get them more open to a peace agreement and permanent borders. They are just as responsible as Israel for the stalemate. More Historically than Israel.

Comments

Thomas Sutrina Added May 14, 2018 - 8:57am
Clown, you need to spend time reading history.  The method used through out history is to occupy and displace the natives with your people.  The Old Testament defined this as the way of having a 'promised land'.  Islam goal is to make the planet their promise land.  in the Koran you convert or die.  Only those that share the Old Testament may be spared but they are still second class citizens. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 14, 2018 - 9:12am
We might remind ourselves
 
Nah, I don't care one bit. Sick of the kvetching.
 
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 14, 2018 - 10:16am
Just another provocative and completely unnecessary act from the clown in chief.   Death toll so far for this act is at 42 and rising.
 
Coincidentally I went across the border between Israel and Palestine last week.   I would have to say that, were I Palestinian, the way that the border is managed would have me emulating Braveheart and shouting "Freedom" at the top of my voice.
 
Whilst in Israel people were continually telling me how much they desired peace.   Yet the words were often obscured by the overhead drone of helicopter gunships.   I also found that the prevalence of young people carrying heavy weaponry  was a bit off putting and not in tune with the "peace" message.
 
More willingness to compromise, to recognise the needs and emotions of others, might actually move things towards peace.   Certainly fewer people would want to kill Israelis (and by proxy, Americans).
 
The US needs a true statesman at the helm.   Not Coco the clown
Rusty Smith Added May 14, 2018 - 10:55am
Clown Why would Trump tie the embassy move any demands, I think he supports Israel?  He's not Obama!
 
The Muslim Arabs tried to MURDER all the Jews in Israel with a well coordinated attack by several countries all at once and tiny little Israel got lucky and prevailed in that war.  In doing so they pushed the aggressors back to a much more defensible line and most of the Muslim Arabs who lived in that area fled.  
 
Since then the Arabs have never stopped trying to kill Jews, and even today kill all they can with suicide bombers and rockets that they fire from any location they control that is close to Israel.  Every week they prove they are not the type of people Israel should allow to occupy land even closer to them.  
 
I don't see any Europeans or Americans offering to give their land back to the people who occupied it before they displaced them, so who are they to try and tell Israel to do just that?  What a bunch of hypocrites.  When America gives back America to the Native Americans they kicked out, then they can talk about Israel doing the same.
 
I've not spent any time in that part of the country but imagine the Palestinians must be pretty bad people, or by now the Muslim Arab countries around there would have accepted them as refugees.  If they won't why would Israel?
 
Israel is hardly anti Muslim or Arab, they are 20% Arab Muslim and in Israel they can all vote just like the Jews.  Tell me, which Muslim Arab country in that region allows Jews to live and vote in their country?  
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 14, 2018 - 11:08am
Of course the Palestinians were first told to give up their lands to allow the state of Israel to be formed in the first place.  It would not make me happy if a bunch of foreigners turned up in my country, took over by force and then told me that my movements were restricted.
 
All people tend to consider themselves God's "chosen" ones and believe that they have a God given right to their homeland.  The tragedy of Palestine is that two groups here believe the same thing.
 
Compromise and tolerance are the only long term way forward... or a state of permanent war will persist with continuing consequences for all of us.   Most extremist Arab groups draw some of their self justification from the situation in Israel and the USA's role in what they see as gross injustice and even, on occasion, genocidal actions.
 
Experience in Northern Ireland and South Africa shows that eventually, not matter how distasteful each side might find it, compromises have to be struck and each ide need to see the others needs as legitimate.   Trump is not helping in that process.   He is just throwing fuel onto the fire.  The result will be more death... not only in Israel and Palestine... but also in Europe and the USA.
 
We need an adult in charge here.  Not a spoilt toddler.
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 14, 2018 - 11:10am
Rusty:  In answer to your question:  I don't know about all countries, but I believe that Jordan and Egypt have equal citizen rights for Jews, Christians and Muslims.  Certainly that is what I was told when I visited last week.
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 14, 2018 - 11:13am
By the way, I was shown around Bethlehem by a Palestinian Christian.  He also felt oppressed by Israel.  Not surprising as he had to cross the check point twice a day... the average wait being about 40 minutes in each direction as the crossing points are limited in number and only two soldiers do the car searching at a time.
 
I think that this is primarily a political thing... not a religious thing.
Rusty Smith Added May 14, 2018 - 12:34pm
Robin the red breasted songster Jews can visit Jordan but aren't allowed to live there, own property or be citizens.  Violence against Jews in Jordan is rarely prosecuted, they are generally not welcomed.  A few work there.
 
There were once about 80,00 Jews in Egypt but now it's less than 1,000.  There too violence against them is common and prosecutions are rare.  Most Jews left years ago, they know they are unwelcome.  Strangely they have been treated with more kindness by the ruling class than by the people of Egypt.
Thomas Sutrina Added May 14, 2018 - 12:36pm
Robin did you sleep through history classes?  Even the liberals must be presenting enough facts to show this is bogus, "Of course the Palestinians were first told to give up their lands to allow the state of Israel to be formed in the first place."   The Europeans divided up the Ottoman Caliphate, Islamic empire after WWI.  And then they made the proclamation that after WWII resulted in the 1948 creation of Israel.  We can show through history that this piece of land changed hands many times through out history.  You can not present one nation that defined itself as Palestinian because no nation exists.  It is a made up group.  About 30% of Israel's population and citizens with a right to vote are Muslims.  Show me one Islamic nation where the Jews and Christians citizens are on equal level of rights to the Muslims?   You will not find one in history because the Koran clearly defines non-Muslims as second class citizens.  In other words not full citizens with the same rights as Muslims.   The life of Muslims have more value in the eyes of the law then others.
Rusty Smith Added May 14, 2018 - 12:41pm
I find it strange that the Palestinians were essentially Jordanians before Israel seized their land, but Jordan refused to let them immigrate to other parts of Jordan.  However since that happened Jordan has accepted other Muslim refugees from Syria, and Iraq. 
 
I believe the Muslim community isn't rejecting the Palestinian refugees because they are scum, but rather because they want them to continue to be refugees because it suits their purposes.    It's not like  they don't accept other refugees, even from other countries, they certainly have the room, the Palestinians are even Muslims.
 
The Palestinians are just living pawns the Muslim community uses to keep the conflict with Israel alive.
Benjamin Goldstein Added May 14, 2018 - 1:17pm
When I feel doubts about the move, I think of the corpses of the "protesters". It reassures me and let's me smile again. They have it coming. Same goes for cartoon "protesters".
 
I want to emphasize that I don't hate Muslims. I hate the red-chested commie jester much more.
;-)
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 14, 2018 - 1:21pm
Rusty:  Your information is at odds with mine on these points.  No matter.  Two wrongs do not make a right.
 
Israel believes that the land is "God given".   Palestinians believe themselves to have been dispossessed and the victims of 70 years of occupation.  Insisting on "rights" does not help
 
I believe that Israeli border guards have now slain some 90 people, some children, during the recent demonstrations.   So far no Israeli deaths have been reported.   It looks, at the least, very heavy handed.  Some believe that the USA has essentially given Israel carte blanche by this recent move.
 
Both sides, no doubt, believe themselves to be in the right.  This was also the case in Northern Ireland and in South Africa.   At some point, if progress is to be made, then compromise is needed.   Otherwise people will continue to die
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 14, 2018 - 2:11pm
This blood being shed now is on Trump's tiny little hands.
 
What did anyone expect?  That Thud would make a proclamation and the Palestinians would scurry over and kiss his ass?
Stone-Eater Added May 14, 2018 - 2:20pm
in the Koran you convert or die
 
In that case I would have been dead for a long time. I've lived and worked for 25 years in African Islam countries, and my wife is Muslim (although African Islam - means it's not as strict as Arab Islam).
 
I know a lot of hard core Muslims, but they respect me as an atheist because I respect them.
 
Fanatism and ignorance is not a matter or religion but of intelligence and education.
Stone-Eater Added May 14, 2018 - 2:22pm
Robin
 
What's the difference between the US and Israel ? Not much, that's why they're "best friends". One defines itself as "God's own country", the other as "God's own people". No other countries have such ignorant slogans in their self-definition.
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 14, 2018 - 2:30pm
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 14, 2018 - 2:33pm
By the way, there were Jews in my tour group of Egypt and Jordan (no Israelis though)
Benjamin Goldstein Added May 14, 2018 - 3:01pm
I feel like a vampire, but killing these rioters from time to time is the only way that the community learns to make peace. They are not to determine other people's embassies. Lesson learnt. Now, all embassies can move.
Dino Manalis Added May 14, 2018 - 3:15pm
Israelis and Palestinians should agree to have communities in each other's country as long as they're peaceful to spark new peace talks.  Trump rushed to keep his campaign promise and gain politically, but the president and secretary of state have to constantly emphasize the point that Jerusalem is a world city and must be discussed in talks to share the capital.
Thomas Sutrina Added May 14, 2018 - 5:11pm
Stone eater, your a second class citizen in a caliphate nation, was the Muslim nation you lived in full Muslim?   Christian, Jews lived for centuries in Muslim nations including the Ottoman Caliphate.  Second class citizen does not mean death it means your life has less value then a Muslim.  So when the Ottoman empire needed an escape goat for its collapse they chose second class citizens, the Christian Armenians holocaust starting about April 1914.  By the early 1920s, when the massacres and deportations finally ended, between 600,000 and 1.5 million Armenians were dead, with many more forcibly removed from the country.  An earlier one occurred between 1894 and 1896.   The Sultanate collapse in late 1922, and the partitioning plans from the Allied Sykes-Picot Agreement when into effect.  That is the middle east divisions that existed at the end of WWII and the creation of a Jewish nation came out of the the agreement.  Like the American embassy was postponed for a later date.
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 14, 2018 - 5:11pm
Ben:  Would you make peace if you felt that your country had been occupied for 70 years by foreigners who wanted to subjugate you?  Of course not.    Latest toll btw is 55 dead and 2700 wounded... all Palestinian.   Israel could at least be proportionate in its response to border incursions.
 
Turkey has withdrawn its  ambassadors to both Israel and the USA.  South Africa has withdrawn its ambassador to Israel.   I hope that Trump is proud of how he has fucked up world peace to feed his ego trip....
Leroy Added May 14, 2018 - 6:18pm
Clown, why should conditions be placed on Israel?  Every other country selects its capital and other nations locate their embassy there.  Why is Israel discriminated against in this regard?   What's the big deal as to where a country chooses to place its embassy?
Rusty Smith Added May 14, 2018 - 7:02pm
Robin the red breasted songster I don't think Israel belongs to Jews because God gave it to them, but I do think they "own" it now and that's really all that's relevant.  I don't care if the Palestinians owned it first, someone probably owned it before they did.  I can't put my finger down on a map of Europe without it falling on land that has switched ownership many times, and no one is giving any of that land back, so they must be hypocrites if they demand Israel do something they are unwilling to do themselves.
 
The refugees now called Palestinians are little more than political pawns to the rest of the Muslim Arabs in that area, and that is the only reason they weren't allowed to melt into the surrounding Muslim Arab countries.  They ignore their plight and left them there even while at the same time accepting more recent refugees from places like Syria and Iran.  Why do you think no other Muslim Arab country is willing to let them in?
 
Those Palestinian refugees have been given millions and millions of dollars that were squandered and embezzled by their leadership, starting with Arafat whose personal fortune is still missing.  Neighboring Arabs can't bring themselves to let the refugees in but they are sure quick to send them arms including rockets and suicide bomb components because that's exactly what they want.  They don't want peace they want ongoing provocations and give them arms and money to keep the fight up.  
 
Dozens of those poor innocent Palestinians were rioting and trying to blow up the fences so they could take the fight into Israel, and that's why they died.  I lose sympathy for people who die trying to kill others and that is exactly what happened.  
 
All any Palestinian had to do to avoid the carnage was to not go out of their way to participate.  Instead they take their wives and kids with them, hoping to use them as shields.
 
Would you have joined them if you were there, or would you have stayed away?  If you had a kid that wanted to go what would you have told them?
Thomas Sutrina Added May 14, 2018 - 7:46pm
The problem of Gaza, poverty and lack of trade, could be fixed with the stroke of a pen from the oil rich Muslims nations.  The funds to dig tunnels and obtain missiles to the Hammas Gaza government come from the outside.  Most suspect Iran.   The citizens of Gaza are the proxy solders of those that choose to pay for weapons instead of economic opportunity.  Want to blame someone then blame the nations that choose to fund war instead of peace.  That is not Israel.
Kurt Bresler Added May 14, 2018 - 11:47pm
To Christian Americans the The Israeli/Palestinian problem is the fault of the Palestinians.
@ Rusty Smith >>"The Palestinians are just living pawns the Muslim community uses to keep the conflict with Israel alive."
I agree completely.   
 
This entire conflict is about the larger Muslim community thinking themselves as the new Ottoman Caliphate and wanting to basically run the Jews out.
Christians are taught the story of the Promise land being given to the Jews, and the Jews conquering the land, which shows the Jews have a clear history of ownership, going back thousands of years.
As far as Donald Trump being a clown, that is an ignorant thought, Donald Trump has Christian roots and realized under Obama Christians in America were being persecuted.  Trump was a blessing to Christians by standing up for them against the oppressive regime and seeking to reestablish the Country as a Western Christian Nation accordingly he has made sure the USA position is Now standing with Israel.  As far as the embassy being moved to Jerusalem, Christians  overwhelmingly celebrate the move.
 
IF it comes to more terrorism and war then under Trump the USA will do whatever is necessary to protect Israel and Saudi Arabia as well as others.
If Iran wants a War, the USA is prepared to give it to them, considering they are worse than the Palestinians when it comes to wanting Land.  Iran wants to be the head of an entire MEastern Shia Islamic Caliphate and expects to fight off all the Sunni Muslims to get it. 
After Trump gets done in North Korea, he will deal with IRAN in the same manner.  Just like there is no way to appease the Palestinians there is also no way to appease the Iranians so therefore the only power they understand is force.  
 
The Palestinians are beating a dead horse and should concentrate on a more suitable goal, like blending into the other Muslim countries,however as the above quote indicates they are being paid to be protesters.
@Rusty Smith >> "Dozens of those poor innocent Palestinians were rioting and trying to blow up the fences so they could take the fight into Israel, and that's why they died.  I lose sympathy for people who die trying to kill others and that is exactly what happened.  "
Again I agree with this position.
 
Most Christians are happy with Trump, they are not happy about his past personal life but they are in agreement with his decisions about rebuilding America and returning Christianity to it's greater freedom and position in American life   
The saying "Merry Christmas"  is a case in point.  American Christians have been bombarded by attacks coming point by point on every issue.  Merry Christmas displayed on Stores in December has been attacked for years.   More Recently, We had a Christian Bakery put out of business and fined for not making a Gay wedding cake.  This is outrageous and the normal peace loving Christians have had it with the persecution in their own country as well as Christians being killed for their beliefs all over the world. The last election shows that Christians are willing to fight to keep from being overrun by Muslim sympathizers like Obama or any Religious group which seeks to impose their own tenets such as Sharia Law on Christians.  
Stone-Eater Added May 15, 2018 - 2:43am
Kurt
 
protect Israel and Saudi Arabia
 
Especially Saudi. One has a duty to protect the country where the majority of the 9/11 attackers came from ;-) Once more the inside job question comes up. But let's not get into that again.
James Travil Added May 15, 2018 - 3:02am
All I know is there were dozens of Palestinians killed and well above a thousand injured in the Gaza protests over the US moving its embassy to Jerusalem yesterday. I haven't found any report of so much as a single Israeli injury. The only way to spin this as the fault of the Palestinians is to dehumanize them, to attribute behaviors and motives to them that we all know are contrary to human nature. To paint them as subhuman orc-like creatures who are so crazy and evil that they will keep throwing themselves at a hail of bullets risking life and limb just to have some extremely remote chance of harming a Jewish person for no reason. This is clearly absurd. A little clear thinking and empathy goes a long way.
James Travil Added May 15, 2018 - 3:04am
Also the Trump campaign was given $25 million by billionaire oligarch Sheldon Adelson (the largest campaign donation made by anyone to any candidate), who provided a further $5 million for Trump's inauguration. Adelson is a sociopathic pro-Israel hawk who once called on the US to drop a nuclear bomb on Iran. He was present at the opening of the Jerusalem embassy, getting what he paid for.
James Travil Added May 15, 2018 - 3:05am
Finally any position on Israel that is determined by words made up by dead men thousands of years ago is intrinsically invalid. Saying the Jewish people are more entitled to Israel than those who were living there seven decades ago because of some superstitious voodoo written in obsolete religious texts is not an argument. Religious freedom is important, and it's important to be able to believe whatever you like, but your beliefs do not legitimize your actions upon other people. If you murder someone in the name of Allah, you have murdered someone. If you kill 58 people because you feel some ancient scripture entitles you to a section of dirt, you have killed 58 people. Your internal beliefs do not give you a free pass for your egregious actions upon others.
Doug Plumb Added May 15, 2018 - 6:24am
The fuel that runs the state and legitimizes the state is chutzpa and the Americans have been electing Klowns since HW Bush, even before but it didn't seem so. Starting with Klinton, it all became obvious. None of these people run a thing, they are the sticker on the ketchup bottle, nothing more. The fact is that the think tanks write policy, they are funded by the banks and if the Klown doesn't like it, tough shit. If he doesn't do it they raise the interest rates until he does. As far as the foreign wars and foreign policy, the Klown has no say whatsoever. These are Fed wars and undeclared by congress. The Klown has "pseudo-say" in domestic policy, that's it.
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 15, 2018 - 8:16am
Rusty:  Yes it is practical by now to accept that the Israeli occupation is now effectively permanent... whatever the injustice contained within that state of affairs.   So some way forward needs to be found.    To have the USA give the Israelis carte blanche to kill Palestinians, to bulldoze their homes and appropriate their remaining lands is not, however, helpful.    The USA will end up effectively supporting a new apartheid regime.   So much for the land of the free.   Land of the oppressor more like....
Leroy Added May 15, 2018 - 8:56am
To put it in perspective, let's say that China declares Beijing as its capital.  The Japanese, the mortal enemy of China, sets up its embassy there because China has declared it as its capital.  Let's say that many Chinese can't accept the Japanese having an embassy in Beijing and try to destroy it.  What do you think would happened?  The Chinese government would use lethal force against its own people.  In the case of Israel, it is outsiders, non-citizens, who threaten an embassy in the capital of Israel.  Deadly force is justified.  Why anyone thinks the Palestinians are anywhere in the right is beyond me.
 
The Jews accepted this shithole sliver of land that no one else wanted with enemies are all sides.  If I were them, I would have said, "No, thanks!"  They took it and turned it into a heaven.  They are the envy of the Middle East.  I suggest that the countries of the area give the Palestinians their own shithole sliver of land far away from Israel.  It would be an interesting experiment.  It would receive aid from all over the world, especially from the US.  I wonder if they could turn it into a heaven.  I would sell them short.
 
I don't blame the Palestinians.  They are good and decent people.  I blame its leadership.  If someone doesn't go along, they are branded a traitor and shot on the street like dogs.  They have no choice but to be pawns of the Middle Eastern nations.
Rusty Smith Added May 15, 2018 - 9:26am
James Travil since when does there have to be equal carnage on both sides to justify a defensive move?
 
OK lets make a comparison, an angry mob of Jews hears what you said and sets out to blow up a few members of your family.  The police let you know they are approaching your house, they have bricks to throw, and a history of using suicide bombs to kill people like your family who they don't like.  
 
They are seen starting to plant explosives on your front door, your family is scared and you report that to the police.  They use bull horns to dissuade the mob but they continue to riot and don't stop planting explosives so they can breech you front door.  The police tell you there is nothing they can do because SO FAR no one in your house has been hurt.  They ask you to let them know the second one of the mob actually kills or severely injures someone in your household.
 
Please tell me how you reply to the police?
 
Remember, Israel responded to an angry mob that was in the process of blowing up a fence so they could take their fight directly to the people of Israel instead of being forced to fling insults, rocks and rockets at them from a distance.   
 
Please tell me at what point in the process it would have been ok for them to start shooting?  
 
Do keep in mind no one was shot who didn't show up to participate in the potentially violent riot or even who did and then walked away when threatened by the military.
 
 
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 15, 2018 - 10:22am
Rusty:  The casualty list at the moment reads like this:
 
Palestinians:   58 dead (last two days... more since the move was signalled) and 2700 injured.   Children included in this list.
Israelis:   One soldier lightly injured.
 
Similarly during the last "war" in Gaza we had a picture of several thousands Palestinian dead (including many children) versus a handful of dead Israeli soldiers.
 
The picture is overwhelmingly one of disproportionate use of lethal force.
 
America is supporting apartheid now.   USA:  Land of the oppressor.
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 15, 2018 - 10:26am
Leroy:   Israel is not a "shithole sliver of land" as you describe it.   The coastal strip is highly fertile.   It provides all manner of crops and, at this time of year, actually looks a lot like the Cape in South Africa.
 
The barren land really begins to the East of Jerusalem... the bit that is actually called "Palestine"
Bill H. Added May 15, 2018 - 11:36am
 
Once again, it's not for what's best for the US, the citizens of the US, or the citizens of the world, it's all about Trump's bank account and ego.
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 15, 2018 - 1:26pm
Rusty:   Don't know how to respond to your question.   As you know, in my country the police don't carry guns.   They are trained to de-escalate situations to avoid the use of force.   Obviously the Israel border guards have a different approach...
 
One piece of land which two tribes claim as their own.   Until some way is found for them to share it, there will never be peace.   Trump has simply sided with one tribe over another.   In so doing he has fueled the sense of injustice and recruited many more angry young men to the cause of terrorism.
 
Benjamin Goldstein Added May 15, 2018 - 2:17pm
Would you make peace if you felt that your country had been occupied for 70 years by foreigners who wanted to subjugate you? 
Time for them to change their feeling. They are wrong. BTW I see my country being transformed into a dictatorship and don't call for violence, idiot!
 
Latest toll btw is 55 dead and 2700 wounded... all Palestinian.
Beautiful. I hope their families got the message.
 
South Africa has withdrawn its ambassador to Israel.
They are the Sweden of Africa. Plus plus good.
 
In so doing he has fueled the sense of injustice and recruited many more angry young men to the cause of terrorism.
Oh, the broken record. Nonsense. Terrorists stop when they don't get rewarded for their actions. But lucky for you, your grooming gang country, the EU, and the UN will hold another donator conference shelling out rewards for dead Jews and destroyed properties soon enough. The more rockets they fire, the higher the rewards from the UN. You stop rioters by shooting them and death is appropriate. They actually want it. The terror organisation does not get what it wants and this is what counts.
 
Muslims must learn what is their business and what isn't. They have no business in telling other people where they locate their capital and their embassies.
 
It sucks how the left pretends that all claims are equally valid. Give me your car! If you don't, you threaten the peace!
 
And also YOU don't come to call Israelis a tribe. If conservatives do it, they do it respectfully. You folks speak of "settlers", "imperialists", "tribes" as if we Jews were some savages from the past. YOU are a savage!
James Travil Added May 15, 2018 - 6:13pm
"since when does there have to be equal carnage on both sides to justify a defensive move?"
You got to be joking, right? The Israelis mass murdered 50+ unarmed civilian protesters. This was a massacre and a war crime plan and simple. Only evil individuals who support complete Police State tyranny could pretend to justify such an offense act as a "defence". 
Leroy Added May 15, 2018 - 7:09pm
Those killed were sacrificial lambs for the Hamas cause.  They were told that the Israeli soldiers were retreating from their positions, giving the impression that the soldiers were scared shitless.  It was done to encourage those to charge across the border.  In fact, the Israelis were reinforcing their positions.  With the potential of tens of thousands charging across the border to create havoc, the soldiers opened fire.  I can't blame them.
Riley Brown Added May 15, 2018 - 8:17pm
Robin the red breasted songster, I will ask you the same question, since when does there have to be equal carnage on both sides to justify a defensive move?
 
OK lets make a comparison, an angry mob of Jews hears what you said and sets out to blow up a few members of your family.  The police let you know they are approaching your house, they have bricks to throw, and a history of using suicide bombs to kill people like your family who they don't like.  
 
They are seen starting to plant explosives on your front door, your family is scared and you report that to the police.  They use bull horns to dissuade the mob but they continue to riot and don't stop planting explosives so they can breech you front door.  The police tell you there is nothing they can do because SO FAR no one in your house has been hurt.  They ask you to let them know the second one of the mob actually kills or severely injures someone in your household.
 
Please tell me how you reply to the police?
 
Your police might well respond with similar violence if they were facing a rioting mob with explosives, especially if they were from a group that regularly uses suicide bombs to kill as many innocent civilians as they can whenever possible.
 
I know you think there must be a better way but I want you to stop a second, put yourself in their place and tell me how you'd stop that dangerous rioting mob, without using violence?
 
It's easy to criticize, not always easy to come up with better way.
Riley Brown Added May 15, 2018 - 8:24pm
Overwhelming force is the military definition of the best deterrent, promising to respond with no more than equivalent force is the best strategy for prolonging any conflict.
 
People tend to give up if the come to the conclusion their cause is hopeless it's too painful to keep going.  Obviously even the high number of losses suffered by the Palestinians has not been enough for them to conclude it's not worth trying more, even if the risk remains the same.
 
If Israel's response was even less the Palestinians would be even more encouraged and try harder.
Riley Brown Added May 15, 2018 - 8:28pm
Robin, can you name any other refugee population that fled after losing a war, and was later permitted to return home in mass?
 
I doubt the land you live on wasn't previously owned by another ethnic group before you lived there, would you be willing to give some of your land back to the peoples who lived there before you?
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 15, 2018 - 8:49pm
Unfortunately this crap will continue until the US grows a spine and a pair of nuts to tell the Israelis to cut the crap.
 
Thud didn't help matters.  It just goes to show you what happens when a complete amateur needs to throw red meat to his base by promising things during his campaign he feels compelled to honor, even against the advice of our allies.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 15, 2018 - 8:50pm
Included in that base are crazed nutbag evangelicals who think Thud is helping bring about the end of days.
Rusty Smith Added May 15, 2018 - 8:58pm
Jeffrey, and after the US grows a spine and tells Israel to "cut the crap", which country do you think the US will be able to ally with in that part of the world, (after Israel stops working with the US)?
James Travil Added May 15, 2018 - 11:05pm
As I see it the best comparison of what happened would be if you (as the Israeli representative) decided to wear a hat with a pictorial image of Muhammad on it. A (Palestinian) passerby protests the outrageous display. You respond by emptying a full clip from your submachine gun into the unarmed passerby's face. This is murder plain and simple. Any attempt to justify it is subterfuge and deception, and probably also racist.
 
Another example would be the Kent State mass shooting. No one in their right mind would try to justify that. 
 
Other possible responses could have included rubber bullets, tear gas, concussion grenades, firehose water repellent. Or even just firing a few warning shots first. How about only shooting the "dangerous" (unarmed) protesters instead of massacring 50+ people including children? Of course not, this was intentional mass murder for the sake of evil.
 
As for as have Americans returned America to the Indians (Native Americans)? No, and no one here is suggesting that the Jews return Israel/Palestine to the Palestinian people, just end war crimes like this and the continuous violations of international law. Fair and equal treatment for all, Jew and Palestinian alike. How is that outrageous? While we didn't return America to the Indians they do have their own lands within it now. And it's been a long, long time since we have massacred any of them. I guess we just aren't as racist bloodthirsty and Kill Krazy as the Israelis... 
James Travil Added May 15, 2018 - 11:10pm
"Jeffrey, and after the US grows a spine and tells Israel to "cut the crap", which country do you think the US will be able to ally with in that part of the world, (after Israel stops working with the US)?"
I'm not Jeffrey but the answer is obvious, Saudi Arabia (who we are already allied with BTW). 
James Travil Added May 15, 2018 - 11:16pm
"Included in that base are crazed nutbag evangelicals who think Thud is helping bring about the end of days."
Agreed, and belief in their crazed nutbag prophecies is the primary reason for why American foreign policy towards Israel is what it is. The evangelicals need Israel to exist for Jesus can return (after the anti-Christ massacres most of the Israeli Jews). Obviously the religious nutjobs are only using the Jews and Israel for their own nefarious ends, typical! 
Benjamin Goldstein Added May 15, 2018 - 11:19pm
Quite seriously, I think James displays well why the left sucks so hard. He very obviously has not even looked at pictures about what is going on and is talking out of his arse.
James Travil Added May 15, 2018 - 11:25pm
Benjamin, Ad Hominem garbage will not be responded to. And FYI I'm not "the left" I'm a moderate independent. 
Benjamin Goldstein Added May 15, 2018 - 11:34pm
James, saying that you don't even bother to get some rudiment information is not an "ad hominem" attack. FYI you are a leftist.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 15, 2018 - 11:37pm
@Rusty Smith:
”Jeffrey, and after the US grows a spine and tells Israel to "cut the crap", which country do you think the US will be able to ally with in that part of the world, (after Israel stops working with the US)?”
 
Israel depends on billions of dollars in US aid, Rusty.  We cut their aid they will damn well better listen.
 
Is this the sort of behavior you tolerate in an ally, Rusty?  Or is it OK because the victims are Palestinians?  
 
Are you saying it’s OK to use lethal force against civilians, Rusty?  
 
Wow, back in the old days here I used to defend Israel....
 
I agree that Israel has the right to its security.  But using lethal force against unarmed or poorly armed civilians is against all civilized behavior.
Benjamin Goldstein Added May 15, 2018 - 11:51pm
Jeffrey, they are no civilians and, yes, all foreign aid should be cut, particularly the funds that go to the Palestinians.
James Travil Added May 15, 2018 - 11:53pm
I like how I'm "a leftist" for advocating fair and equal treatment for everyone. I would submit that compared to an alt right extremist like you Benjamin most normal people are "leftists" by your distorted view. 
James Travil Added May 15, 2018 - 11:55pm
Jeffrey, apparently anyone who doesn't advocate mass murder of unarmed Palestinian civilians is just in the wrong according to the alt right extremists here. Pretty pathetic actually. 
James Travil Added May 15, 2018 - 11:58pm
"they are no civilians"
Right, the unarmed children who were murdered were what, "terrorists"? Give me a break. Like I said, alt right extremist. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2018 - 12:06am
I can see how big, bad Israeli troops thought a baby was a threat:
8-month baby is a military threat.
Benjamin Goldstein Added May 16, 2018 - 12:09am
So now that tear gas was used its also wrong. Tip: Don't carry babies to a military offence. BTW they are armed. They set things ablaze. They are fair game.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2018 - 12:20am
You’re right, Benjamin.  Why should they expect fair treatment?  Why should anyone care about a group of people locked away?  They should all be put in their place and shot if they get out of line.  Better yet, if they try and leave Gaza (ghetto) the Israelis have every right to murder every last one of them down to their last child.
 
Who gives a shit about a bunch of people who practice a different religious faith?  Hell, they aren’t white European types.  
 
Christ, they look different from civilized people....they even eat different than we do!!!!!!!!
 
The Israelis need to build a bunch of camps to stick them in.  Get out of line?  Shoot them or cut their rations.  We can force them to form “councils” that are essentially hostages for everyone’s good behavior.  Step out of line?  Shoot or hang the batch and put others in their place.
 
It’s a fantastic way to keep a population in line.  It’s got many precedents in history.
Benjamin Goldstein Added May 16, 2018 - 12:24am
They are not locked away. They can and do leave all the time. Just keep on spreading antisemitic lies. You are no different from Tom. Not a bit.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 16, 2018 - 12:37am
BTW I see my country being transformed into a dictatorship and don't call for violence
 
Perhaps you should. Seriously, the transformation has been going on for decades and continues apace. If not now WHEN? Will you do it only as you're lined up to be loaded into boxcars? 
 
James Travil Added May 16, 2018 - 12:50am
Antisemitism (or whatever word you prefer to use for the pernicious mind virus which makes people think it's okay to promote hatred against Jewish people) is a very real thing that does exist, and I denounce it to the furthest possible extent. Anti-semitism is also a false label that is used by racist extremists to bully the world into accepting war crimes, apartheid, oppression, and mass murder. Both of those things are true.
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 16, 2018 - 12:55am
antisemitic lies.
 
Ashkenazim aren't semites. How can one be antisemitic against that which isn't semitic? 
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 16, 2018 - 12:58am
Speaking of antisemitic Ashkenazim hatred of Palestinians who are semitic is the height of the very thing you purport to despise. 
Benjamin Goldstein Added May 16, 2018 - 1:04am
The English word "antisemitism" derives from the German word "Antisemitismus". It was first used by Wilhelm Marr and means hatred of Jews. It never meant anything else. Spreading lies against Jews is antisemitism no matter how you twist and turn.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2018 - 1:55am
@Benjamin Goldstein:
”They are not locked away. They can and do leave all the time.”
 
Really?  What is it, 59 dead?  Thousands injured?  That indicates otherwise.
 
The Gaza is under blockade.  There are reasons for that blockade but it’s a blockade nonetheless.
 
“Just keep on spreading antisemitic lies.”
 
Criticizing Israel for the deaths of Palestinians is antisemitic?  Wow, sorry.  Didn’t know that.  So, when I criticize the US government, does that make me a traitor?
 
You are no different from Tom. Not a bit.
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2018 - 1:58am
“You are no different from Tom. Not a bit.”
 
Aaaaaawwwww, did I point out something uncomfortable for you?
 
Tom is a loathsome antisemite.  I have nothing in common with him.  I just refuse to look at Israel any differently than any other countr.
James Travil Added May 16, 2018 - 2:01am
Well I guess you see the lesson here Jeffrey. Any criticism of Israel whatsoever means you are no different than a Nazi "not one bit". All that work you did defending Jews and Israel was for nothing if you aren't willing to bow and scrape to the Zionist masters and blank stamp everything they demand. Welcome to slavery. 
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 16, 2018 - 2:58am
Hi Riley:   You asked me to name a sizeable group of refugees who went home after a conflict was resolved.   For the UK the easiest answer is the Belgians.  250,000 moved to the UK when their country was invaded by Germany in 1914.   Nearly all went home afterwards.
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 16, 2018 - 3:08am
Riley:  Our police deal with rioters using non lethal force if necessary... riot shields and water cannon.    Usually issues are dealt with using reason.   In the USA the use of a gun is seen as the answer to everything.   It is probably the main reason that violent death is five times more common over there.
 
You might like to know about a situation that occurred in York a couple of years ago.   The "English Defence League"  (interesting how bigots always present themselves as patriots...) marched towards the Bull Lane Mosque.   The police were not called.   After standing about chanting for a while, the EDL were surprised to see some Muslims coming out of the mosque with cups of tea and biscuits.    Eventually they ended up playing football (soccer) together.
 
A very brave response I think.  Maybe Israel should be braver.
 
Some news coverage of the event said:

Father Tim Jones, who went to the Bull Lane mosque, which is situated in his parish, said: "I've always known they were intelligent and compassionate people and I think this has demonstrated the extent to which they are people of courage - certainly physical courage and also a high degree of moral courage."
 


"I think the world can learn from what happened outside that ramshackle little mosque on Sunday."
 


Hull Road ward councillor Neil Barnes said it had been a "proud moment for York".
 


He said: "I don't think I'll ever forget the day that the York Mosque tackled anger and hatred with peace and warmth - and I won't forget the sight of a Muslim offering a protester tea and biscuits with absolute sincerity."
 
I guess that the secret is in learning to not demonise those you fear and instead seeing them for what they really are... people who are a lot like you....

 
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 16, 2018 - 3:19am
Riley:   On a smaller scale the UK admitted some 40,000 Jewish refugees during the period 1933 to 1939.   10,000 of these were unaccompanied children.    Most have stayed, to the great enrichment of our national life.
Stone-Eater Added May 16, 2018 - 6:45am
Robin
 
Sorry I couldn't make it to the Wassail. I simply didn't have the cash for it.
Stone-Eater Added May 16, 2018 - 6:52am
BRRHAH !
 
Antisemitism ! Jewish ME imperialists ! Arrgh ! Arab allahu akhbar terrorists ! American hegemonists ! European cowards ! Iranian bomb builders ! North Korean slit-eye gangsters ! Russian poisoners ! 
 
Yawn. People are people. We are a DUMB species. Let's face it, go down to the beach and watch the sunset. And listen to "When the Saints go marching in".
 
Then look up to the sky and.....wait LOL
Jeffry Gilbert Added May 16, 2018 - 7:11am
Hey Benjamin, I'm not spreading lies. 
Stone-Eater Added May 16, 2018 - 8:26am
Ben 
 
I tell you something in German now:
 
Ich habe gestern in der ARD eine Diskussion über Jerusalem/Hauptstadt in "Hart aber fair" gesehen. In keiner Weise wurde die Rolle der finanziellen jüdischen Elite in den USA angesprochen - es wurde ausschliesslich über das Recht/Unrecht der Errichtung eines jüdischen Staates in einer vermuteten Region des nahen Ostens gesprochen - und über Antisemitismus in Deutschland. Ich meine: Juden UND Araber sind Semiten. Also was soll der Scheiss ? Man sollte mal diese Begriffe ein wenig klären und auf den tatsächlichen Sachverhalt hinweisen:
 
Die USA sind durch AIPAC und die Tatsache, dass die FED als private Organisation (unter Führung der Rothschild-Elite) die finanzpolitischen Geschicke der Welt steuern, in der Lage, Israel jede noch gewünschte Möglichkeit bieten, sich in der Region breitzumachen.
 
NetanYahoo hat ja selbst erklärt, dass Teile des Iran ursprünglich jüdisch gewesen seien. Es geht nicht um Religion oder den Talmud oder sonstigen Kram, es geht einzig und alleine um Machtpolitik.
 
BTW: Sorry guys for the German. I won't do it again :-)
Stone-Eater Added May 16, 2018 - 8:43am
BTW2: The Israelis will continue their settlements and expansion forever, since they're inofficially a US state.....
 
Question is: Why didn't the US make an arrangement with Jordania to get them a piece of land for Palestinians to form their own state ? They are used to regime change and influence wherever, and that way Gaza and the West Bank could have been transferred to Israel and the Palestinians would have had their land in Southern Jordan.
 
Answer:
 
When there's no war, the US can't sell arms.
 
The same question could be asked to Turkish goat fucker Erdogan who fights the Kurds and has the same empire dreams for northern Iraq and Syria - and intends to establish Turkish Islamic schools in - GERMANY.
 
And the Germans piss in their pants and consider....LOL
Stone-Eater Added May 16, 2018 - 8:49am
Side Note:
 
"Turkish Goat Fucker" is a common name for the Turkish president here in Western Europe and there is no copyright on that. (The majority of us support the Kurds. Why ? Because when a little people like the Jews can have their own country, why can't a people of 32 million have one ? That's OUR logic).
Rusty Smith Added May 16, 2018 - 9:30am
James Travil you have compared police responses to nonviolent protesters to protesters with very violent intentions and military grade explosives who have a history of suicide bombing.
 
Tell me, if they were BLOWING UP BARRIERS that stopped them from getting close to your home and the police refused to do whatever it takes to stop them and then the rioting mob killed your family, would you phrase the police for exercising restraint.  That is what the mob wanted to do if they could get into Israel.  If they had been successful you can bet they would have repeated this tactic and rendered the border a meaningless obstacle.
 
The rioting mob contains lots who want to kill all the Jews and they do everything they can to achieve that goal.  They regularly blow themselves up with suicide bombs just so they can kill Jews.   They regularly fire rockets into Israel in attempts to kill Jews they don't' even know, including many who think Israel should let them have some of the land back.
 
So James, tell me how you would have diswaded them from blowing up the barrier and then running into Israel so they could kill lots of Jews?  Please try to be realistic, and remember bullhorns were not working and the angry mob, who had military explosives greatly  outnumbered the police.
Rusty Smith Added May 16, 2018 - 9:36am
James Travil you have compared the tactics used against non violent protestors to the tactics used against violent protesters who have military grade explosives they were in the process of using to blow up the barrier that keeps them out of Israel, and a history of suicide bombing.  There is no comparison, but I'd sure like to hear what you think Israel could have done to stop the rioting mob without bloodshed.
 
What do you think Israel could have done to stop the mob without bloodshed?   Please be realistic, remember the mob ignored bullhorns and was using military explosives to blow up the barriers so they could swarm into Israel and take their fight to the people.  Also remember the rioting mob was far larger than the police force trying to stop them.
 
So... how should Israel have stopped them?
Stone-Eater Added May 16, 2018 - 10:21am
Rusty
 
The Balfour Declaration was a public statement issued by the British government during World War I announcing support for the establishment of a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine, then an Ottoman region with a minority Jewish population (around 3–5% of the total).
 
That's the source. No matter what's up now. Fact is that it's not a good idea to simply create a new country somewhere without asking the population if they agree.
 
What would the US say when, say, Tibetans would show up and say, hello, Montana is now the new Tibet because we were persecuted by the Chinese ? Not talking of "native Americans"....that would not be PC LOL
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2018 - 10:29am
@Robin the red breasted songster:
”You might like to know about a situation that occurred in York a couple of years ago.   The "English Defence League"  (interesting how bigots always present themselves as patriots...) marched towards the Bull Lane Mosque.   The police were not called.   After standing about chanting for a while, the EDL were surprised to see some Muslims coming out of the mosque with cups of tea and biscuits.    Eventually they ended up playing football (soccer) together.”
 
I’m completely shocked that bloodthirsty Muslims bent on world domination and the destruction of the “white race” didn’t toss bombs and then machine gun the rest.
;)
Riley Brown Added May 16, 2018 - 11:52am
Robin, thank  you for examples of refugees who lost wars but were allowed to reoccupy their homelands, I didn't know about them.
 
Most of the world I know about doesn't work that way, including America where Native Americans lost most of North America and no one thinks they will get it back.
Rusty Smith Added May 16, 2018 - 12:01pm
Jeffrey Kelly how can you compare a group of unarmed protesters to a rioting mob with military explosives and a history of using them to kill the people they don't like?
 
If the protesters in York had explosives and the police thought they intended to blow up the Mosques, I bet their response would have been quite different.
 
Do you really think the Muslim Suicide Bombers would have taken off their vests and started playing soccer with the Jews on the other side of the barricade if they had been allowed to blow it up and confront Jews on the other side if the Jews offered them tea and cookies?
 
The Palestinians suicide bombers blow up Israeli school busses whenever they can, do you really think they would be pacified with lip service?
Benjamin Goldstein Added May 16, 2018 - 12:26pm
Jeff: What blockade? Do you mean that they have to use ROADs? OMG maybe visiters to your home should rather throw a molotov cocktail into your window instead of using the door.
LYING about Jews to further the interests of terrorists who try to kill Jews is antisemitic. People are free to leave Gaza whenever they want. Gaza is the second state of the two-state solution that is supposed to bring peace. Israel does nothing there. It is Hitler's and leftists' dream: judenrein.
 
You DO look at Israel with a double standard and not like you look at Tibet in China or Balochistan in Pakistan.
 
Also spare your crocodile tears. More people die in Chicago every week because leftists fail to police their cities.
 
Riley: The people returned to Belgium because they had WON the war.
Tom agrees with every single letter of yours. The only difference between the two of you is that he believes that he can inhale Zyklon B to get rid of bugs.
 
Rusty: I find the level of dishonesty unbelievable. People cannot see the photos and videos and still say that this is about some protesting civilians with baby buggies. They are liers. And they do lie to get Jews killed. That's all. And it doesn't do anything for me that some, actually many, of these media antisemites are ethnic Jews. Tom Purcell also fancies Jews like the Freedman twit and the comedian brother Nathanael. So what is the difference between neonazis and the political left when it comes to antisemitism? I don't see it.
 
These "protesters" set a hell ablaze on BOTH sides of the border. How depraved does one have to be to pretend that they are not combatants? None of these lefty hypocrats would except that rioters threw firebombs THEIR way.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added May 16, 2018 - 3:37pm
@James Travil:
”Well I guess you see the lesson here Jeffrey. Any criticism of Israel whatsoever means you are no different than a Nazi "not one bit". All that work you did defending Jews and Israel was for nothing if you aren't willing to bow and scrape to the Zionist masters and blank stamp everything they demand. Welcome to slavery.“
 
I’m a slave to no one, James.
 
But I have no problem battling vile Holocaust deniers and defending Israel when it is warranted.  I’ve done it on Writers Beat in the past.  I get that Israel has their own concerns about security and the Palestinians have done themselves no favors in this matter.  Frankly we would have an Israel and a Palestine today if the Arab world hadn’t attacked Israel at its inception.  
 
But I look at this very simply.  If my government opened fire on people trying to cross our borders, killing over 60 and wounding over a thousand others, I would look at that as an act of vileness that needs to be punished.  It is a crime against humanity.
 
I see that both Rusty and Benjamin bitched at me, I don’t have time to read it but my question is very simple:
What if those dead were Christians or Jews?  
 
Benjamin compared me to Tom Purcell.  Apparently criticizing Israel now equates me to a Holocaust denying antisemite.  I find that hysterical.
Benjamin Goldstein Added May 16, 2018 - 3:49pm
Sorry Kelly I have no time to read your stuff.
Leroy Added May 16, 2018 - 6:12pm
I read today that Hamas claims that 50 of those killed were members of the terrorist group.  Wow.  Seems that the brutal Israel story is collapsing.  See the video of the guy on crutches?  Seems Jesus cured him and he was able to run.
 
Is it curious, however, looking at the maps.  Israel was originally offered three pieces of land with tenuous connections to one another.  To call them contiguous would be an overstatement.  Yeah, there was a tiny strip on the coast, Robin.  Most of the land was reserved for the "Palestinians," but the Arabs rejected the plan.  Now, most of the land is controlled by the Israelis.  It's unlikely that the Israelis will ever be required to give up any substantial part.  The more the Palestinians protest, the further behind they get.  One would think they would learn after a while.  The best hope--other than Israel disappearing--is that they learn to live in peace. That is impossible until the Palestinians acknowledge Israels right to exist.  The entire problem is the Palestinian leadership.  I'm sure the Israelis would welcome the cheap labor.
 
Rusty Smith Added May 16, 2018 - 6:31pm
I read up on the last incident and the people the Israeli military was trying to keep out were not just harmless protesters throwing rocks and bottles, they were a rioting mob armed with military explosives, grenades and molotov cocktails. 
 
If they had managed to break through the barriers their next stop would have been Jewish occupied buildings a few hundred yards away.  
 
 I have an idea, if you don't want to be shot at by the police or military, don't threaten to kill people they are expected to risk their lives to protect.  I bet that will work well in any country.
Rusty Smith Added May 17, 2018 - 9:24am
Leroy Israelis do welcome cheap labor, including the 20% of Israeli citizens who are voting Mullim citizens of Israel and tend to be the most likely to currently employ day laborers who enter and leave Israel at closely monitored check points every day.
 
Israel built the walls and check points because not all the Palestinians who try to get into Israel have peaceful intentions, and even with the checkpoints many go get though with explosives, those are the ones that regularly make the news. 
 
That is exactly why the can't leave their border open, or permit an angry rioting mob that they know includes people with explosives, blow up the barriers and wander through occupied parts of their country.
 
I see a lot of criticism from people who like the Palestinians and think they are justified killing Jews, but not any suggestions how the Israelis might have stopped the advancing rioters without bloodshed.  
 
The reason we're arguing about this is because the Israelis managed to stop the advancing rioters before they got to Jewish settlements a few hundred yards away and start murdering Jews, and killed many rioters in the process.  I suspect if they had not killed any Palestinians and lots of Jews had been murdered, they would have been quite happy.
Benjamin Goldstein Added May 17, 2018 - 10:48am
It's over. Egypt has told Hamas that they would support Israel in killing them one by one if they don't stop the riots. It is the message they understand. The leaders of the left are malicious suggesting all this "you create terrorists" shit. 
 
Of course, they were never protests and not even folksy riots. They were Hamas minions, paid and bussed to the place by the terror organisation (and I have little doubt that Hamas got refunded by the UN and the EU).
 
I'm so through with the left and it has not even much to do with policies. Nutters. Of course, the media won't mention that Egypt has a put an end to it and their peace la la is worth a shit.
Tom C. Purcell Added May 17, 2018 - 5:34pm
Modern Israel was built upon a foundation of lies.  When it finally crumbles into bits, and there are more cracks all around the foundation as our keyboards click, people will die but truth will prevail.
 
Without an Ashkenazim-dominated Middle East there will be light in this world, there will be hope.  May the dust and ashes of Zion's remains bond the mortar for construction of a true reorder.
Pardero Added May 18, 2018 - 2:21am
I see a lot of rationalization for the senseless slaughter of dozens. 
Much larger protests and riots, that have included armed anarchists and antifa, have been handled by civilized countries. This protest was expected, and Israel could have made preparations for non-lethal defense and control.
 
Israel wanted to teach the protesters a lethal lesson, and got the outcome they sought. 
The Israelis have successfully dehumanized the Palestinians or else the world would be sickened by the death toll. 
 
Any protest could have a death toll, if the authorities wished to have a death toll. Civilized countries aim to prevent casualties. The Israelis would like to exterminate the Palestinians, but must settle for what they can get.
Flying Junior Added May 18, 2018 - 3:06am
Bros,
 
This, "Clown," is just trolling you.  He has no passionate defense against the Netanyanhu era settlements in East Jerusalem.  He has no hope for an Israeli-Palestinian peace accord.  He cares nothing about the Palestinian people.  Nor does he care whether or not the monster moved the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem from Tel-Aviv.
 
He's just trolling you guys.  Ninety-three comments and no one seems to have noticed that the Clown has left the tent.
Pardero Added May 18, 2018 - 3:29am
Flying Junior,
I noticed, but wanted to counter some comments.
 
I am glad that you left a comment, whether or not the author is a troll. Your ostensibly neutral language was not entirely.
; )
Flying Junior Added May 18, 2018 - 3:53am
Pard,
 
I wish you could have talked to a Russian Jew living in Israel who used to be part of our community in 2017.  He called himself, Simply Jews.  He still contributes to an off-beat blog under the name of Snoopy.
 
http://simplyjews.blogspot.de
 
I engaged him, limited by my incomplete understanding of Israeli affairs.  He cleared up most of my misunderstandings of the separation of Palestinians in Israel and Jerusalem.  He told me about the barriers that were set up to exclude Palestinians from Jerusalem.  While he was a Jew living in Israel, his point of view was not hostile to Palestinians.  He was able to forgive my myopic view of the relationship between Jews and Palestinians in Israel in a quite good-humored way.
 
It was an interesting friendship.  There was no concrete reason for him to take me seriously.  His first comment to me was that he had little sympathy for Palestinian terrorists.
 
Benjamin Goldstein stays in touch with him.
Flying Junior Added May 18, 2018 - 3:57am
We were able to agree in a round-about fashion on Benjamin Netanyahu.  I had recently professed my admiration for martyred Prime Minister, Yitzhak Rabin.  I had lionized Rabin as a soldier who understood the horrors of war.  I believe that it is universally accepted by peace-loving humans that he was assassinated by right-wing forces in Israel.  I went on to suggest that Netanyanhu was not a force for peace.
 
Simply Jews replied that Netanyanhu was mostly just a force for Benjamin Netanyahu.
David Montaigne Added May 18, 2018 - 7:58am
The land around Jerusalem was Jewish before Muslims existed.  That being said, Muslims date their claims to the period of their rule/conquest over the land from about the 8th to 19th centuries.  Jews can go further back.  So what?  Neither side cares what validity the claims of the other side has.  And both conquered it from someone else. 
 
Only the force of guns will change the status quo.  Think the United States would exist if lands weren't conquered from the weak?  All that matters is who lives there now, how do they identify themselves, and who is willing to fight and die to maintain that or change that?  Whether it's Jerusalem or Texas or Barcelona or Syria - it will remain the same until the political and military balance overwhlemingly encourages change.
Dave Volek Added May 18, 2018 - 2:23pm
Rusty
 
Nice analysis, once again. And we should recognize that most Palestinians were not on protest lines. 
 
 
All
 
I did a quick look at the current Israeli Knesset. Arab political parties hold 13 of the 120 seats, and would probably hold more if more Arab people voted. While the Arab parties are often in opposition, I'm pretty sure policy has been tempered because of their presence. It seems to me that average Muslim in Israel has more say in this government than the average Muslim in many Muslim countries.
 
I would also like to add that Palestinians are often referred to as Muslim, but there are a lot of Christian Palestinians as well. I'm not sure of the ratios, though. I was in Israel in 2004 and witnessed free worship of both Muslim and Christian Palestinians.
 
I believe that Palestinians are used as pawns in Mideast politics.
 
If one does not believe the "end of days" prophecy has an effect on Mideast policy, I invite every one to spend a few days watching American Christian programming. Sooner than later, one will encounter a show that entails a fulfillment of the nation of Israel to bring about the Second Coming of Jesus. Donald Trump is a pawn of these Christians.
 
 
 
Tom C. Purcell Added May 18, 2018 - 2:42pm
The lack of voting participation is simply part of their protest to the establishment of Zion to begin with.  I'm sure on the façade, Israel makes sure to display fair and balanced politicking, but who believes the powers that be in Zion really want to be fair, or are anything near fair.
Flying Junior Added May 18, 2018 - 3:28pm
You called it, Dave Volek.  Trump is a man of God sent by Jesus to prepare Jerusalem to be the Holy City once again.  Obama was somehow the enemy of Israel mostly because he did not approve of Netanyahu's aggressive support of Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, lands that were promised to the Palestinian people.
Flying Junior Added May 18, 2018 - 3:33pm
David Montaigne,
 
By your definition of might makes right, then the great military commanders and dictators throughout history were justified in their conquest and adventures.  Yay Napoleon!
 
Only problem is that if one of the major powers begins to invade and occupy nations in Europe, South America, Asia or Africa then WWIII would become inevitable.
 
Come to think of it, there was a nation that expanded its military capacity enough to start invading and conquering other countries less than eighty years ago.
 
I can guess you're not an admirer of NATO?
Dave Volek Added May 18, 2018 - 3:38pm
Tom
 
Well, I would say the social forces are much more complicated than just Zionism. It is more like circle that keeps feeding itself.
 
With a minority of Palestinians being very hostile to Israel and willing to engage in terrorist acts, the government has to come done hard on all the Palestinians to keep the Jewish people relatively safe. This then fosters a more hardened attitude towards Israel, which results in more terrorism. And the suppression/oppression cycle spirals even more. 
 
Add in the fact that a significant number of Jews are looking for their own house and garden and have more votes than the Arabs, the western democratic model will trend towards the annexation that has occurred. In other words, the terrorism against Jews actually feeds the aspirations for Jewish expansion. 
 
History could have been different if the Arabs had accepted that they lost the war in 1948--and accepted the UN partition. If there were no terrorism, I think Israeli democracy is strong enough to allow Muslim and Christian Palestinians to live in peace and prosperity. 
 
Pardero Added May 18, 2018 - 3:44pm
Flying Junior has made some great points. 
Bill Kamps Added May 18, 2018 - 4:46pm
Compromise and tolerance are the only long term way forward... or a state of permanent war will persist with continuing consequences for all of us.  
 
How we got here is irrelevant.  Every country has right and wrong in its history, and how its border got to be how it is.  Using history to justify borders is speculative nonsense. If things were different in the past, they wouldnt be the same today.
 
The only thing that matters is how to move forward, and neither side is really interested in moving forward in a common sense way.  The Israeli's too often trod on the Palestinians, and while international sympathy is often with the Palestinians, they throw this sympathy away with their irrational behavior.
 
As for what Trump did, it is a side show, and a distraction from the main event.
 
One of the ironies here is that both Saudi and Israel are up against Iran, and this makes strange bedfellows indeed.
Leroy Added May 19, 2018 - 10:03am
"The only thing that matters is how to move forward, and neither side is really interested in moving forward in a common sense way.  The Israeli's too often trod on the Palestinians, and while international sympathy is often with the Palestinians, they throw this sympathy away with their irrational behavior."
 
Quite honestly, I think the Israelis are willing to move "forward in a common sense way."  They have demonstrated it many times.  All the Palestinian leadership has to do is recognize Israel's right to exist and to be willing to live in peace.  The Palestinians have lost a lot of ground--literally--and will lose more if they continue the struggle.  You seem to blame both sides.  Sure, both sides have done bad things, but it is the Palestinian leadership that is squarely to blame.
 
I look at it this way.  Suppose two families of the same race live side by side in the US in a neighbor that is composed mainly of the same race.  One family can't pay the mortgage and the bank takes it over and sells the house.  Suppose a member of another race buys the house from the bank.  Let's further supposed that the neighborhood is outraged and feels the house belongs to the dispossessed family and the other family has no business being in the hood.  They attack them with the intent of killing all the family members.  The other family successfully defends their property, killing many of the attackers.  The family builds a fence around their house to ward off further attacks, but the neighbors are continually trying to breach the fence and kill them.  How can you say both sides are to blame?  Sure, we can be sympathetic to the family who lost their house to the big, bad bankers who allowed them to buy a house they couldn't afford and blame them for selling out to people the neighborhood doesn't like.  The whole conflict could be resolved if the shitty new neighbors just moved out.  But, hey, they have a right to be there, right?.  They bought the house legitimately.  Maybe others start moving in to gentrify the neighborhood.  It is not a situation that requires compromise.  The solution is for the neighbors to recognize that they are there legitimately and have a right to be there.  They don't have to like them.  All they have to do is to be willing to live in peace.  It is wrong to blame the family that moved into the neighborhood, even if their removal would bring peace.  That is where we are at.
John Minehan Added May 19, 2018 - 11:11am
Seems reasonable for the Embassy to be in a country's capital, although that is not always the case (Thailand's US Embassy is in Kensington, MD, for example.) 
Bill Kamps Added May 19, 2018 - 2:36pm
Quite honestly, I think the Israelis are willing to move "forward in a common sense way." 
 
Well Israel's terms are usually pretty unfavorable for the Palestinians.  They want them disarmed, and the hassles of moving around, makes it almost impossible for them to have any kind of economy.  As I said, the Palestinians have undermined any common sense progress, so tough to say what might be possible if the Palestinians acknowledged the obvious, that Israel will exist.  Unfortunately this one statement, gives Israel license to do almost anything to trod on the Palestinians.
John Minehan Added May 19, 2018 - 2:52pm
"'But my sons have sons, as brave as were their fathers;My fourth green field will bloom once again,' said she."
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfHLYIms97A
Flying Junior Added May 19, 2018 - 11:39pm
Leroy,
 
Are the players in your analogy Palestinian and Israeli families or the two nations involved in a dispute?
 
Granted, it is an extremely complicated issue given private property rights to say the least.
 
Maybe we should visit Simply Jews at his home blog and ask him to explain just how Israeli developers obtained the property rights for the manifold settlements.
 
Personally, I have no idea.
 
Because if you wish to liken what is happening with the illegal Israeli settlements upon lands legally granted to the Palestinians with the national foreclosure crisis of 2008-2009, I'm not seeing it.
 
I think there are other factors at play.  Not the least of which is a freedom to build and act shielded by power and protection.
 
We have been trying to reason with Israel for better than twenty years.  The Putinesque fourth term of Netanyahu ushers in a new low for the persecution of Palestinians.
Stone-Eater Added May 20, 2018 - 7:48am
Trump is a man of God sent by Jesus to prepare Jerusalem to be the Holy City once again.
 
???? WFT have you putting into your head or did you forget the sarcasm smiley ? LOL
 
No people has a "right" to their own country. Or ALL have. Choose.......nature doesn't know "right", and where does a "people" start to be a people ? US-Americans are no race or tribe. They're a population of mixeds, that's all. There's no "pure breed" in humans, in fact. And when one does think there is, he gets close to Eugenics and racist ideologies. We ALL are to some degree bastards LOL
 
So Jews are - when they look at themselves as a special and pure breed - Nazis. As are all other peoples who think of themselves being special and better than "the rest".
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 20, 2018 - 12:47pm
Stoney:   Most Jews I know don't think like that.   I think that the Israelis have a siege mentality (caused by so many people wanting to kill them which in turn has been caused by them mistreating the Palestinians) and, because they are underwritten by the USA, they have no check upon their bad behaviour.
 
I can just imagine how some Americans might react if a gang of foreigners suddenly turned up in Manhattan and told the locals that their God had "given" them the state of New York because they were his chosen few and that the locals were therefore expected to move out to say, Idaho....
Leroy Added May 20, 2018 - 12:48pm
Are the players in your analogy Palestinian and Israeli families or the two nations involved in a dispute?
 
It could be any group with a difference in race or religion (or lack thereof) or political affiliation or creed.
 
Granted, it is an extremely complicated issue given private property rights to say the least.
 
As the Israelis settle the region, it is becoming more and more complicated.  I don't see the Israelis being forced off the land.
Maybe we should visit Simply Jews at his home blog and ask him to explain just how Israeli developers obtained the property rights for the manifold settlements.
 
Perhaps a good idea.  I watched a few videos on the subject a few days ago.  The narrator seemed to be objective about it.  It seems that after several Israeli victories, some Israelis started believing that it was a message from God to settle the West Bank and other places.  The government did not discourage it.  Now, people move there because of safety, better environment, better schools, and for similar reasons why Americans move to the suburbs.  The government encourages it with incentives.  There are places where settlers are not allowed to live, yet the religious fanatics continue to push the frontier.  Every year, the government demolishes a setter's house and parades it in the news to show that it is doing something about it.  It is for show and does not deter them.
Because if you wish to liken what is happening with the illegal Israeli settlements upon lands legally granted to the Palestinians with the national foreclosure crisis of 2008-2009, I'm not seeing it.
 
Sorry.  I have no knowledge of the Palestinians being granted anything.  They were offered land originally but refused to live by the Israelis.  They continue to lose every day they delay.

I think there are other factors at play.  Not the least of which is a freedom to build and act shielded by power and protection.
The settlers continue with a wink and a nod by the government.  A country is defined by its borders and the county's ability to defend them.  Israel is expanding its borders.  No one has stopped them.  The Arabs are holding out for a better offer or for Israel's destruction.  It may be a long, long time coming.
 
We have been trying to reason with Israel for better than twenty years.  The Putinesque fourth term of Netanyahu ushers in a new low for the persecution of Palestinians.
It is not the Israelis with whom you should try to reason.  All the Palestinian leadership and the Arab world have to do is acknowledge Israel's right to exist and agree to live in peace.  The terms for the Palestinians are getting worse by the day due to the settlers.  I would urge them to come to their senses sooner than later.
Robin the red breasted songster Added May 20, 2018 - 12:58pm
They do say that violence begets violence.   However I think that it is also true that peace begets peace.   Maybe that needs to be enforced by the international community.   Israel should have its funding from the USA withdrawn unless it starts to behave in a civilised fashion.  Responsibility for maintaining order should become a white hat role... with the white hats properly trained to behave in a restrained manner.
 
Norther Ireland looked an insoluble problem back in the last millennium.... a problem that was formed over centuries of history.   Yet today peace largely reigns.   Eventually Ian Paisley and Martin McGuiness, sworn enemies across the divide, became friends and were even known as the "Chuckle Brothers".
 
These things are possible, but they need years of patient diplomacy with sensitivity to each sides concerns and fears.  They do not need periodic episodes where an advanced military carries out a massacre of poorly armed citizens... that only feeds the hate.
 
Someone needs to help Israel because they seem incapable of helping themselves.  Trump certainly has not helped...
Benjamin Goldstein Added May 20, 2018 - 1:20pm
Robin, do you understand that Egypt has put an end to it? Do you understand that violence begot peace? Do you understand that 50 of the 60 dead fighters were official members of the Hamas? Do you understand that the collateral damage was very low? Do you also shed as many tears about traffic accidents? Do you understand that these 60 deaths were absolutely worth it? Do you understand that North Ireland is peaceful because the terrorists have not got what they wanted?
Rusty Smith Added May 21, 2018 - 3:45pm
Robin the red breasted songster regarding what you said about violence begets violence.  The mostly Hamas fighters who were killed had explosives and were trying blow up the barricades that were stopping them from attacking and killing Jews a few hundred yards away.
 
Please explain how it would have reduced reduce the violence if Israel had not stopped them, and the militant rioters had been able to blow up the Jews on the other side?
 
I suppose they could have tried to tase all the rioters, but they also have a nasty habit of using suicide bombs, so that might not have worked out well for the police.
Flying Junior Added May 22, 2018 - 6:21am
Thank you for a great comment Leroy.
 
I am not worthy.  I am thankful that someone is paying attention to all of this.