Islamophobia

Xenophobia - a fear of people from other countries - is a natural part of human nature right across the world. Often it tips over into racism - prejudice, discrimination and dislike of other races based on the principle that 'our' race is superior - which is even worse.

 

While both of these attributes are common, even natural, they are not to be considered desirable.

 

In previous times different races and cultures were kept apart by natural barriers - oceans, mountains, huge rivers and deserts. Only the more adventurous would get to travel and interact. Nowadays we live in multicultural societies and mix with people from other cultures and races on a daily basis. That creates tensions.

 

Over time we have, in Britain, been exposed to waves of immigration. As a great sea-faring nation who set up a huge trading culture that developed into an Empire and then Commonwealth we were exposed to many cultures - African, Asian, Chinese and Russians all came as sailors or traders and set up home here where they were absorbed and integrated. We provided home for many persecuted races and immigrants - Huguenots, Jews, Jamaicans, Sikhs, Pakistanis, Turks, Greeks, Arabs, Indians, Gurkhas, Kurds and many more have all come and settled. London in particular is a cosmopolitan city. Just walking down the streets one can see the array of clothes, colours and foods that have come with the different cultures. Most gradually integrate through the generations and become more British than the British. A minority keep apart and maintain their traditions.

Just recently we have had large numbers of Muslims coming to this country as refugees from the wars in the Middle East and as economic migrants. They see Britain as a place of sanctuary and a place where they can have opportunities and a better standard of living.

 

Because these immigrants have arrived in large numbers and have costumes and ways that make them stand out they have drawn attention to themselves and evoked both xenophobic and racist responses.

 

Back in the sixties these responses were aimed at the Black and Pakistani immigrants. We can look back to Enoch Powell's speech of 'Rivers of Blood'. We can look back at the skinheads and 'Paki Bashing'. The white community was fearful that they were being taken over by a flood of coloured immigrants from our crumbling Empire. They were taking our jobs and marrying our girls. It was outrageous. Our culture would be lost, our values overturned and we would be swamped. There would be civil war.

 

Well fortunately little of the paranoia of those times came to fruition. There have been the odd race riot and numerous racist incidents but largely we have all come to terms with each other and black and brown faces are now received with little consternation. The paranoia has subsided and people integrated. We live harmoniously. Racism has declined and black and brown faces are largely welcome in all strata of society.

 

However, the present paranoia associated with Muslims has caused a resurgence of xenophobia and racism. So let us talk openly and see what this is all about.

 

What are the issues? Here are some of the things that have come up on my blog:

 

Muslims wear Burqas and Hijabs - these are misogynistic and unBritish.

 

Women are subjugated and separated - this is misogynistic and undemocratic.

 

The build mosques and have a call to prayer - this is displacing Christianity.

 

They indoctrinate their children in madrassas - this is against the children's rights and is not right.

 

They are associated with terrorism - ISIS and Al Qaeda are infiltrating the country to carry out atrocities.

 

They are congregating in large numbers and displacing the endemic population - soon we will be overrun and our culture displaced.

 

They want to replace British law with sharia law - they do not accept democracy or common law. They want to set up a theocracy.

 

They are involved with crime - they use knives and have gangs.

 

They are raping our girls - the courts are full of Muslim gangs that have targeted young girls - abusing and raping them.

 

They are breeding like rabbits - they are going to take over by outbreeding us.

 

It seems to me that all these things are fuelling the fears and paranoia that exists and are seized upon by right-wing fascist groups, such as Tommy Robinson and the English Defence League, and exaggerated in order to stir up more fear and hatred. It isn't helped by the more extreme Muslim fundamentalists who do call for sharia law and vow to take over the country or the minority who are, or support, terrorists who commit atrocities.

 

In America the right-wingers talk about Europe being swamped and lost under a tide of Islam. It reminds me of Enoch all over again. Many in Britain feel the same.

But does it have foundation?

 

Well I have a great distaste for all religion and see the Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Jews and Muslims all as bad as each other. Fundamentalism of all hues is equally distasteful and destructive. I'd junk the lot of them. Especially the ones who turn to violence to achieve their aims. I take the view that if you've got to have a religion at least make it a personal experience and don't foist it on others.

 

I don't like the way women are treated as second-class people and I can't stand the indoctrination of children.

 

All immigrant populations display a higher level of fertility than the endemic population. That will soon settle.

 

So is there any basis to all this Islamophobia?

 

I think not. It is paranoia created by having too much immigration too quickly. It will take time for them to adjust to our customs but most of the Muslims are law-abiding and want to integrate into society and make a go of things. They accept British values even if they keep up their traditions.

 

I don't think Islam is about to take over the country. I don't think the 95.4% of the non-Muslims need to be unduly worried by the 4.6% of Muslims just yet. The hysteria is created by their high-profile customs, the terrorism and the way they have congregated in high numbers in various areas.

 

Let the police and courts deal with the minority that are rapists, terrorists and criminals. They all need locking up.

 

The authorities need to get on the ball to sort out the schools and mosques so that we integrate better into British values, adhere to British law and do not have indoctrination and radicalisation.

 

I think that all this extreme religiosity is a passing phase. Back in the sixties my Muslim friends were all very Westernised. They did not go around in medieval costume. They liked the same thing as everyone else and weren't on their knees praying or down the mosque. It was the same in Pakistan. I saw a documentary of Islamabad University in the early seventies and it was all jeans and t-shirts without a hijab in sight. It is the wars and unrest in the Muslim world that has created this extremism. They feel under threat and have responded by becoming more extreme in their culture. It will pass.

 

I predict that in forty years time most of the Muslims will have integrated. If the mess in the Middle East is sorted there will not be the extremism and we will see the mosques emptying and barely a burqa in sight.

 

British culture is a hybrid culture. We have the blood of Celts, Britons, Norman French, Norse from Scandinavia, German Angles and Saxons, Italian Romans, Africans, Chinese, Asians, Arabs, Turks and Uncle Tom Cobley and all, and we are all the stronger for it.

 

What is needed is love, understanding and integration. That requires systems, dialogue and good will on all sides. The onus is on the Muslim community as much as the endemic population. They have to speak out more and reach out more.

 

So I say, put aside your fears and paranoia, on both sides. We are all people. Embrace the differences, tolerate each other and grow together.

 

We will all be stronger together.

Comments

opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 1:25pm
I wrote this for a British audience but I reckon it has resonance with Americans too. 
Our immigration is mainly Eastern Europeans and Muslims. In the States its mainly Mexicans but the exaggerated fear of Muslims persists.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 5, 2018 - 1:29pm
Oph
 
Phobias are things you're afraid of. And why are you afraid of something ? Because you don't know it. It's simple as that. We're animals, don't forget that. We have to WANT TO KNOW and experience to not be afraid because then we KNOW - and aren't afraid anymore.
 
Simple as that.
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 1:34pm
Stone - you are right. Getting to know people breaks down barriers and preconceptions. But theocracies stink and indoctrination stinks too.
BTW - I have a phobia about spiders and I'm a biologist.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 5, 2018 - 1:37pm
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 1:40pm
Ryan - No - I'm just not gullible enough to fall for the propaganda. 
I don't defend Islam. I think it stinks as bad as any religion. The Sunni and Shia hatreds are so stupid as to be unbelievable and that's where most of the violence occurs.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 5, 2018 - 1:41pm
BTW:
 
What is needed is love, understanding and integration. That requires systems, dialogue and good will on all sides. 
 
I agree on that. But that requires
 
a) all people master the language in order to dialogue
b) fair chances on the work market depending on qualification only
c) accepting the culture and political secular system of the host country without any condition (in that case in Europe)
d) the will to identify with the new country on all aspects
 
And that is NOT the case unfortunetaly. I'm all for a tough stand. When a delinquent from another country goes to jail here, he has to get into a jail that "offers" the same conditions as they would be back home. Not a 2-star-hotel. We have lots of Albanian pimps and North African drug dealers here. They talk of "human rights" and stuff when they're caught. Fuck it. Throw them in a hole for a while, prison African style. They'd be glad to go back home. Sorry to talk so openly, but we can't accept any trash anymore that commits crimes, talks of "human rights" and spits in our face at the same time...
Dino Manalis Added Jun 5, 2018 - 1:43pm
 Islamophobia is caused by terrorism and the refugee crisis, because many of them treat women as second-class citizens.  That's why there has to be screening to keep all of us safe.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 5, 2018 - 1:49pm
because many of them treat women as second-class citizens.
 
Proof, Dino. Did you ever live in a Muslim country ? Or is that hearsay ?
 
BTW: "Terrorism" does not exist per se. And even when you think it exists, what caused it ? And what caused the refugee crisis ? Where do you think lie the roots for all that ? 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 5, 2018 - 1:53pm
You have fallen for the propaganda, Opher.  The idea that Islam is perfectly harmless and poses no threat at all is a total myth.  This is what happens when you are ahistorical,  you are extremely gullible. 
 
You obviously don't know anything about Christianity.  Please don't knock a religion when you've never seriously studied it's holy book, and never lived by it's precepts in your life.  Thank you.
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 5, 2018 - 2:06pm
It seem that you forget why their are nations that have armies and that those armies are their to defend the nation.  This is not new for defenders have existed through out the history of civilized human existence.   The invasion that the socialist governments have let into countries is against the principles for a nation.  These leaders are members of a world government, so are fifth column solders against the nations.   
 
This is the definition of the responsibility of a citizen of a nation which includes especially the leaders.  This is from a Supreme Court Decision on the 14th Amendment which made former Slave Citizens.  American Indians you would think have a far better position that those that come across a nations border legally or illegally.  I am talking about what politicians have allowed in the EU and America.    Elk v. Wilkins, 112 U.S. 94 (https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/112/94/) (1884),
 
Thus, born a member of an Indian tribe, even on American
soil, Elk could not meet the allegiance test of the jurisdictional phrase because he “owed immediate allegiance to” his tribe, a vassal or quasi-nation, and not to the United States. The Court held Elk was not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States at birth. “The evident meaning of these last words is, not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction, and owing them direct and immediate allegiance.”
 
The setting up of enclaves that follow the customs and laws of their native land clearly shows that they choose not to be fully subject to the jurisdiction of the nation they live in. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 5, 2018 - 2:15pm
This article misses the whole point which is a nation only exist when the citizens within their hearts and freely are subject to the jurisdiction of that nation.  The fear he is talking about could just be the desire to have a nation.  It is a fear that the real desire is to create anarchy, no law, no safety.   In America sanctuary areas and open borders have reduced our safety.  The use of a person's word to vote will create a government not responsible to the citizens.
 
There is much to fear but it is not race, religion, or culture.  It is anarchy, the breakdown of civil order and where force is the means of control.   What I fear is that politicians to gain power are willing to destroy the government.   
Doug Plumb Added Jun 5, 2018 - 2:33pm
Opher, if you met Jeffry Dalmer and he was nice to you and he invited you up to his apartment to watch the game, eat a steak and have a few beers, would you not be silly not to go ? Would you have a Phobia if you said no?
 
re "Because these immigrants have arrived in large numbers and have costumes and ways that make them stand out they have drawn attention to themselves and evoked both xenophobic and racist responses."
 
No. That's not it. We read their books, we understand what religion and philosophy is. You do not get to know anyone by socializing with them and eating their food. You get to know a people by reading their books and hearing what they say to one another when they don't think no one else is listening. How long did it take you to actually get to know your wife? 5 years ? 10?
Islam demands submission. I do not wish to see anyone demanded to submit to anything other than reason itself and this is what Christianity teaches. Islam is not compatible with Christianity.
They in no way wish to convert, they are here to be friends until their Imam's command them differently.
If you hate religion, then you are an ignorant narcicist. You can learn much more from religion and philosophy than you can from all the science books ever printed. You are a fool for adopting the version of religion made for 6 year olds as an adult. Dialectal materialism, the idea that science and matter leads to all truth, warps the mind and makes it unable to properly reason. That is why you materialists get hooked, that and because its easy and its popular.
You are so anxious to declare white people as racists, when in reality we are the least racist people on this planet. To know this you would have to read the White Man's book. You cannot fathom that the people coming over here hate you and that the people who run this world hate your white skin, because white skin is something only they should have.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 5, 2018 - 2:35pm
Thomas is right, so is Ryan.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 5, 2018 - 2:48pm
"We must now face the harsh truth that the objectives of communism [Satanism] are being steadily advanced because many of us do not recognize the means used to advance them. ... The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a Conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists. The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst." J. Edgar Hoover (Elks Magazine, August 1956.)
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 3:13pm
Stone - I think that if you choose to live in a country you should make the effort to speak the language and abide by the customs. Why else would you go?
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 3:16pm
Dino - there are certainly issues that need addressing but stereotyping doesn't help. Most Muslims are not terrorists. Most would want to fit in. We have to deal with the fundamentalists. Perhaps you should also kick out the right-wing racist terrorists? The white supremacist turds and all those who support violence?
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 3:17pm
Thomas - I fail to see how you equate Muslims with anarchy. 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 5, 2018 - 3:18pm
I completely agree with Thomas and Doug. 
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 3:25pm
Doug - Islam is of the same Abrahamic branch of religion as Christianity. They are both as intolerant. Just listen to the evangelicals. They are nuts.
Religion is a medieval doctrine put together by ignorant people long ago. Fortunately we have the sanity of science. You believe what you like.
I don't say all white people are racist; I say all people are racist.
You are spouting hared and fear. I'm spouting integration and tolerance. I wonder which is the more powerful.
I find the Southern Baptists every bit as indoctrinated and hate-filled as fundamentalist Muslims.
Fortunately most people, Muslim or Christian, Jew or Hindu, are not fundamentalists. 
All religious books are full of hate. The sooner we ditch these outdated religions the better.
People are people. We should learn to get on.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 5, 2018 - 3:28pm
Opher, you have no moral standards, and are a lazy thinker.  Our freedom and liberty is under attack because of a lack of virtue and wisdom from people like you.
 
You are clueless about religion and history.   You've never read five biographies of the Founders of your nation, I bet you can't even name ten Civil War Generals if I spotted you five.   You are an intellectual fraud.   
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 3:29pm
Doug - you talk such shit. Now you are equating communism with Satanism. Where's the intelligence?
Why quote the pervert Hoover at me? He was a madman.
EXPAT Added Jun 5, 2018 - 3:38pm
Do you think the fact that London has now surpassed NY in violent crime has anything to do with xenophobia? By the way, when you are under attack, the fear is reality.
 
London murder rate overtakes New York's - BBC News - BBC.com


www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-43610936



Cached




Apr 2, 2018 - A spike in violent crime in London saw more murders committed in the city in February and March than there were in New York, figures show.
 

 
LONDON BLOODBATH MAPPED: Capital rocked by weekend of gun and knife crime
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/969108/london-knife-crime-capital-stabbings-gun-shootings-map
 
 
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 3:39pm
Expat - no it has to do with gangs and drugs. Nothing to do with Muslims.
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 3:40pm
Expat - it also has a lot to do with the huge cuts this government has brought in that has taken away youth services and cut policing.
New York has also cleaned its act up. How does it fit with Chicago or LA?
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 5, 2018 - 4:19pm
Opher, interesting article. 
 
Moreover, it is interesting to hear about your cultural historical experience.  Indeed, the Germans brought in large numbers of Turks in the 60s and 70s and apparently they fit in quite well.
l personally lived next to the Turks and we never had a problem with them.
 
However, I see two distinct ideas being mixed up here. One is Islamaphobia and the other is the desire, ala Tom Sutrina, to have some sort of homogeneity in the culture.  I dont know a name for the latter. To my mind, there is no justification for Islamaphobia, and I certainy wont debate that here. It gets too crazy. However, I certainly think that there is justification to maintain a sense of national identity that has components more fundamental than the type of passport you have or where you live or pay taxes.
 
The Elites have foisted this war on the ME with disastrous consequences and one of those consequences is the refugee crisis. Another is draining of the US treasury. Then  people from the country that created this mess say “extreme vetting!” using a list of countries that is almost identical to Wolfowitz’ neocon list of 7 countries in 5 years. Or just as absurd they announce “no human is illegal” Erff. Neither side makes any sense at all.
Clearly none of these positions want to actually “solve” the problem.
 
Sutrina’s position has merit. Divide and conquer is what the Elites are doing in the elegant Hegelian response to the crises that they have created, so that eventually they can turn their desire for dominance more strongly on their own populations.  If we do not resolve this that is what we have in store.
 
What to do? 
 
 I have an Egyptian muslim friend who told me, paraphrasing
“ I dont give a fuck if they deport me and every other Muslim from this place, if they would stop regime change and the bombing in the ME.” In fact I would love to go back. He also said
“What is wrong with there being such a thing as an Egyptian?” He expressed a sympathy with the movements in Europe which are struggling to maintain a national identity. He sympathizes with Sutrina, but certainly not with Doug or Ryan.  BTW, he does not let his children near Mosque unless he is directly supervising them since he does not trust what they may transmit. Anyway, the idea that “the Imam tells them what to do” which i have heard here, is nonsense. 
 
When he said this I realized that herein lies a solution!  
Simply pull out of the ME, send several 100s of Billions of $ to help rebuild what we have destroyed.  And start minding our own business and start doing real business with the rest of the world. This should solve the refugee crisis.
 
Another BTW. Im sure you have heard sometimes people refer to we should just nuke the place and turn it to glass. My Egyption friend agrees if you do that to Saudi Arabia, our ally and one of the worlds leading sponsors of terrorism.
 
So, Doug, Ryan, Tom, are you willing put up? instead of just shut down? Are you willing to channel that Christian Love into a positive thing?
Are you willing to “positively invest” in our future by reducing our MIC budget by 2/3rds, bring the troops home and participate in A New American Century where we make things other than weapons and war?   For good measure, lets throw in treating Saudi Arabia like the terrorist state that they are.
 
 If so, these debates will take on a whole different character.
 
Mustafa
 
Stone-Eater Added Jun 5, 2018 - 4:22pm
Jeez (no, not Jesus)
 
You guys seem not to understand that most Muslims are peaceful people (at least the ones who had the chance for some education and no fanatical illiterate parents). As are most Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Animists, Satanists etc. etc. Let people believe what they want as long as they don't disturb YOU.
 
Do you actually understand that the fight between religions is NOT about religion but about resources and geopolitics ? Sand in the eye, my friends. In the middle ages, catholic popes decided who became king in Europe or not. 
 
If Christian leaders would be so humanist, they would be POOR. What do you think where the fortune of the Vatican comes from ? Ask the Spaniards as an example who plundered South America and "missionized" the place. Or Africa.
 
Of course there ARE fanatics in Islam. But it's a hypocrisy to point the finger to them now and say that Christians are so much better.
 
Religion is useless bullshit per se. A control and exploitation mechanism for the illiterate. People in Africa pay after Sunday mass money to the church although they have barely enough to live on. I know it. Is that correct ?
Ryan Messano Added Jun 5, 2018 - 4:30pm
Islam is incompatible with the Constitution, Mustafa.  America is open for all religions EXCEPT those which wish to subvert the Constitution, and we've been at war with Islam ever since the War with the Barbary Coast Pirates in the early 1800's.  Islam has been at war with everyone since the time of Muhammad. 
 
Stow the identity politics and this begins to make sense. The ME is exploited due to it's own power hungry, avaricious leaders.  Islam is a chaotic belief system and the results speak for themselves.  If America was so bad, we'd have enslaved the ME and took their oil for ourselves without giving them anything.  We easily could have pulled it off, but the ME is fabulously wealthy, at least the corrupt leaders are.  They are  now buying political influence and Mosques in America while poor schmoes like you think the West is the problem.  So sad.
EXPAT Added Jun 5, 2018 - 4:40pm
Opher. You are indeed blinded by your ideology.
“Expat - no it has to do with gangs and drugs. Nothing to do with Muslims”



Sadiq’s London: Knife Crime, Gun Crime, Theft, Burglary, Rape, Homicide all MASSIVELY Up
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2018/01/02/sadiqs-london-knife-crime-gun-crime-theft-burglary-rape-homicide-massively/
Muslim rape gang attacks soar in Sadiq Khan's London
... London's Muslim Mayor Sadiq Khan has done everything he could to downplay the proliferation of violent crime in London, ... Islamic vigilantism and Islamic crimes.
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/03/muslim-rape-gang-attacks-soar-in-...
Violent crime jumps 27 per cent in new figures – Telegraph
Violent crime jumps 27 per cent in new figures released by the Office for ... said the surge was concentrated in London and the South East and described it as ...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12112024
 


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/muslim-patrol-enforcing-sharia-e-london-article-1.1253893

A small group of Muslim extremists are patrolling the streets of East London, publicly targeting gays, drinkers and women who aren't dressed modestly, in an attempt to enforce Sharia law.
The self-styled "Muslim Patrol" group has posted videos of at least three verbal attacks on YouTube. Out of the handful who participate in the attacks, at least five have been arrested on suspicion of harassment, according to CNN. The group's alleged purpose is to defend Islamic morals, but numerous local and national Muslim leaders have denounced their dubious methods.
he vigilantes start their patrolling late at night and make sure that their faces don't appear on camera. The attacks were based in the Tower Hamlets area in London, some happening right outside the East London Mosque.




While Muslim migrant crime is soaring in London, London's ...Your browser indicates if you've visited this link
London's radical Muslim Mayor, Sadiq Khan, is setting his sights on the so-called "ethnic pay gap" while the capital is gripped by Muslim migrant crime.
barenakedislam.com/2018/03/02/while-muslim-migrant













Police 'covered up' violent campaign to turn London area ...Your browser indicates if you've visited this link
Victims say that officers in the borough of Tower Hamlets have ignored or downplayed outbreaks of hate crime, and suppressed evidence implicating Muslims in them, because they fear being accuse
Stone-Eater Added Jun 5, 2018 - 4:42pm
we'd have enslaved the ME and took their oil for ourselves without giving them anything.
 
Sure. That's why more than 50% of your budget goes to the Pentagon. To be able to say: If we would like, we could blow up the planet, but since we are so grateful, we don't enslave countries. We just make sure that their leaders do as we tell them. But since you have "god" on your side, that's ok, eh ? What a wanker.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 5, 2018 - 4:43pm
gracious, not grateful.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 5, 2018 - 4:46pm
Mustafa
 
Great comment. But you will neither be heard nor understood it seems.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 5, 2018 - 4:47pm
We pay $700 billion a year for drug, tobacco, and alcohol issues, Stone, and only $600 billion a year for national defense.  Spending money on national defense is not a threat to America.  Our own vices are.  42 million Americans are on welfare, 110 million have an STD, 20 million are employed by local, state, and federal governments, and 70 million are on psychotropic drugs.  Additionally, the average American wastes 9 years watching hellivision.  We are our own worst enemy.  National defense is a big priority when you are the most wealthy and powerful nation in the world.
EXPAT Added Jun 5, 2018 - 4:48pm
Stone-Eater.
It does no good to keep repeating that most Muslims are peaceful. Everybody knows that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But the murdering bastards who kill in the name of ALLAH, cannot be excused as the overall mass, as you Progressives learn at your peril.
 
ALL PEOPLE need to be judged by their actions, not their beliefs.
 
They use your dismissal of their actions to prey on the innocent, and infiltrate peaceful societies. Once again TRUMP was spot on, in his Muslim Ban, that kept these Murdering bastards out of the USA, and allowed good Muslims who want to be AMERICANS to immigrate!
 
Europe is paying the price for their stupidity!
Jeff Michka Added Jun 5, 2018 - 4:54pm
Opher,  sorry in a way you wrote this, because it gives Messano another place to vent his race and religious hatreds.  As you may notce Doug Plumb is hoping Ryan will elcome him to his website as "hate Editor in Chief."  Ryan, in his dark little padt here, before he married Vinny in the POW camp, tried to tell me how my Muslim family members will kill us in our sleep.  Messano is just a paranoid, religious, dare I say it, fuckhead.  Read his last little comment.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 5, 2018 - 4:55pm
only $600 billion
 
Only ?!?!
 
National defense is a big priority when you are the most wealthy and powerful nation in the world.
 
Fake:
 
a) Look at your geography. WHO can invade the US with troops ?
 
b) wealthy.....42 million Americans are on welfare, you say. How come when you're so wealthy ? Maybe because the US imports too much cheaply and doesn't produce enough anymore ?
 
c) powerful...weapons, sure, as I said. But at one stage, weapons won't replace brain, diplomacy and empathy. Weapons alone create fear, not TRUST. But maybe it's the goal of the US to fight against the rest of the world...
 
Randy Newman again....it's still up to date somehow.
 
No one likes us, I don't know why
We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try
But all around even our old friends put us down
Lets drop the big one and see what happens

We give them money, but are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful and they're hateful
They don't respect us, so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them

Asia's crowded and Europe's too old
Africa is far too hot and Canada's too cold
And South America stole our name
Let's drop the big one
There'll be no one left to blame us

We'll save Australia
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo
We'll build an All American amusement park there
They got surfin too

Boom goes London and boom Paris
More room for you and more room for me
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town
Oh how peaceful it will be
We'll set everybody free
You'll wear a Japanese kimono
And there'll be Italian shoes for me

They all hate us anyhow
So lets drop the big one now
Let's drop the big one now
 
But I know that I will fall on deaf ears.
EXPAT Added Jun 5, 2018 - 5:07pm
Michka.
Is all you can do is attack Messano personally ? Did you even read his comment? It was spot on!
 
"Islam is incompatible with the Constitution, Mustafa.  America is open for all religions EXCEPT those which wish to subvert the Constitution, and we've been at war with Islam ever since the War with the Barbary Coast Pirates in the early 1800's.  Islam has been at war with everyone since the time of Muhammad. "
Ryan Messano Added Jun 5, 2018 - 5:53pm
Thank you, Expat, and I agreed with your comment too.
 
Yes, Only $600 billion Stone.  How much would  you like us to cut our national defense budget so China can start her campaign for world domination?  Would $500 billion be good for you?  How about $50 billion.  That should do the trick, don't you think? 
 
Never mind geography, look at history.  No one stopped Hitler, and look where that ended up.  So America has a vested interest in being involved all over the world.  While we try to minimize our presence, it sometimes is simply not possible.  We are the preserver of international peace.  It is our values and virtue that keep peace. 
 
Ronald Reagan said it so well.  There is a time for choosing. 
 
B) We have welfare because FDR and others encouraged dependency.  That never should have been done.  We shouldn't even have an income tax.
Even A Broken Clock Added Jun 5, 2018 - 6:02pm
Opher, the rise of fundamentalism in many religions across the world seems to be causing many of the problems we face as a civilization. As you can see in the exhaustive set of comments, everyone is convinced that every other religion other than their own are incompatible with life as they know it. Why? Who knows.
 
But fundamentalism and its companion of willful ignorance will be the death of us if we let it overwhelm us.
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 7:18pm
Mustafa - thanks for commenting. I tackled the whole business of cultural homogeneity in a few previous posts. Harari wrote about it so well in his book Sapiens. We create cognitive myths - such as religion, presidents, nations and money - in order to create stability in large groups.
They're all bullshit but we believe them. That gives them power over us.
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 7:21pm
Stone - that is precisely what they can't get their heads around. Most Muslims are peaceful family people. They see all Muslims are terrorists wanting to impose sharia law and take the place over.
Having said that a theocracy is the worst form of government ever and Islam creates intolerant theocracies.
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 7:24pm
EXpat - where on earth do you get this shit from? My son lives in London. London is my old stomping ground. I have lots of friends and relatives in London. Vigilante Muslims going around targeting people??? You must be joking. Where??
Sorry but your stuff bears no relation to the city I know and spent time walking around. London is a safe cosmopolitan city.
Yes there is crime, drugs and gangs like all cities but if you're not involved you'd never know.
Islamophobia is real isn't it?
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 7:27pm
Ryan - It's OK - US won't have that responsibility of being the most powerful for much longer - China is preparing to take over.
You are certainly right that we are our own worst enemies though.
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 7:29pm
Stone - I love Randy - great song that sends up the American attitude.
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 7:31pm
EXPAT - I though America was the land of the free? Or is that just the ones that agree with the constitution? So it's a limited freedom. You're free if you agree. Doesn't sound like my definition of freedom.
In reality America is an extremely conservative intolerant country isn't it?
opher goodwin Added Jun 5, 2018 - 7:33pm
EABC - you put your finger on it. Fundamentalism will be the death of us all and all religious fundamentalists are a pain in the arse whatever persuasion.
Religion was the worst invention we ever had.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 5, 2018 - 7:47pm
Opher:  Libertines gonna libertine.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 5, 2018 - 7:56pm
EXPAT: go hire a Russian hooker.  All your new pal, Ryan has done is personally attack me and mine over his time and mine on WB.  Ryan is here to get people to his "it's all bullshit and phony news website."  Now, as much as I 've little use for you, I've never attacked your family or, if you have any, your kids.  OTOH, Ryan attacked my wife and family and me viciously, replying to my very first comment on WB, and it's gone downhill from there.  Ryan wants people to follow his orders, or else.  However, there is only one authority on WB, and it ain't Ryan, you or I.  Now, go have a hooker and drink. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 5, 2018 - 8:43pm
Opher G., you didn't get the point. >>Thomas - I fail to see how you equate Muslims with anarchy.>>  When the government invites aliens, into the country they threaten the nation and its citizens. 
 
Opher G. enclaves within a nation following sharia law is a threat.  Nations by definition are made up of citizens.  Many democrats say America is a nation of immigrants.  This is not true America is a nation of citizens.  I have quoted the Supreme Court defining what is a citizen.  Nothing is said about immigrants that choose to become citizens.  The case was presented of a person that as alliances to another nation or religion, in this case American Indian.  Islam is by their one words and writing a religion and a government,  God's government and God's government is the only legitimate government.  Thus a Muslim can not also be a citizen of any EU nation.  
 
New Years 2015, "Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi called for a “religious revolution” in Islam that would displace violent jihad from the center of Muslim discourse.

“Is it possible that 1.6 billion people (Muslims worldwide) should want to kill the rest of the world’s population—that is, 7 billion people—so that they themselves may live?”
 
"If the world Muslim community perceived America as attacking Islam in general then the duty of every Muslim to fight for his religion—the duty of jihad—would have been invoked on a broad scale. The war against terrorism, instead of simmering with  occasional flare-ups, like the Cold War, would have boiled over into a global conflagration, with the Muslim countries of the world—1.2 billion strong—mobilizing against America and the West. ... And if the terrorists were so far outside the mainstream, why did Muslims all over the world burst into joyful, spontaneous celebrations when the hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center and the
Pentagon? Why are Islamic governments afraid to show "too much" public support for the war against terrorism? Further, why are all the governments that covertly support terrorism centered in the Muslim world? ...
 
Islam has never been a religion of peace from the prophet Mohammad conquered the Arabian Peninsula. In the century after Islam religious government, Caliphate conquered the Northern Mediterranean coast into Spain and into India. Islam became the dominant religion in the area by applying the tactics that have been repeated by ISIS today. The Quran says, “Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way, God is forgiving and Merciful.” (Surah 9:5) First from 1894 to 1896 and then from 1915 to 1920 the Ottoman Empire the last to day Islamic empire Caliphate (God's Government) deported and murdered 1.5M Christian Armenians. A genocide topped by Hitler with the help of Islamic followers assistance in the Middle East." http://www.catholic.com/documents/endless-jihad-the-truth-aboutislam-and-violence"
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 5, 2018 - 9:01pm
EXPAT and Ryan,
"Islam is incompatible with the Constitution, Mustafa.  America is open for all religions EXCEPT those which wish to subvert the Constitution, and we've been at war with Islam ever since the War with the Barbary Coast Pirates in the early 1800's.  Islam has been at war with everyone since the time of Muhammad. 
 
There are many Christians that believe that their law is higher than those of our constitution.   Some violently.
 
re:"and we've been at war with Islam ever since the War with the Barbary Coast Pirates in the early 1800's. "
You cant be serious.  I dont remember our Founders talking about this.  Youre saying these pirates represent Islam? Thats like saying that ISIS represents Islam. Or the US invasion of Iraq was a Christian Invasion.
Indeed, it was true that the many Crusade were initiated by Christians. Have you read any accounts about the difference between when the Muslim conquered Jerusalem versus when the crusaders did?
 
Anyway, their is no monolith of "Islam" . Sharia means law and it is well known that it does and should adapt to both times and the place.  Like wise there is no monolith of "christianity" Many disagree on the degrees. Have you noticed the difference between Sharia in our ally Saudi arabia and that in Iran? or Egypt. Or Turkey? What Islam is that you speak? Our ally Saudi Arabia? 
 
"Islam has been at war with everyone since the time of Muhammad. "
 
Before I address this directly, let me just mention that I hear something about the
the fact that “they have been fighting down there like this for ever” I try to remind the speaker that WW1 and WW2 were primarily european although some of the roots and fighing of WW1 was in ME. How many millions died? Then start counting. Franco Prussin, War of Roses, it goes on and on, with nary an evil muzzie in sight.
the Spanish Civi War. Can one of you name  a conflagration of this magnitude involving muzzies?
 
The Arab hurricane came hard and swift and  just like with the victorious Mongols, here was a case where the losers wrote alot of  the history, so you should be a bit careful with your generalizations.  ( Yes, Im call you losers)
Do you know how the Ottomans were so successful? Was it because of their savagery or their skill with seige engines or the sword? No, as i understand it, it had alot to do with that it was merit based, whereas Feudal Europe was Feudal-based. You born a serf you stay a serf. In Tamerlanes empire, if you were good with art, you did well.
China is waging war against us at present. Is that the kind of war you speak of?
 
For those of you who can actually read, and among those, those who can read something that may cause them some cognitive dissonance and therefore can be used for your personal development, you might want to check out
 
https://www.amazon.com/Ornament-World-Christians-Tolerance-Medieval/dp/0316168718/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1528245061&sr=8-1&keywords=ornament+of+the+world
 
Yes, they did conquer Spain and it thrived for 700 years, Jews included
Moreover,  many Mongols converted to Islam and Mongol culture embraced them.
 
Finally,
re:” America is open for all religions EXCEPT those which wish to subvert the Constitution” 
 
Who makes that decision?  You? Have you been watching our “Christian” subversion of our constitution which currently has almost no meaning. ( I put scare quotes because I dont really mean it but am using it as a device give you some of your own medicine) Can you say habeus corpus?
asset forfeiture? First, second  and fourth amendment? How about the fact that only the US has the right to issue money? Congress has to approve war? 
the right to boycott Israel? 
 
 
You are very fond of declarative statements but I have observed that you rarely support them. 
 
Mustafa
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 5, 2018 - 9:05pm
Thomas Sutrina,
re"Islam has never been a religion of peace"
Indeed, and it has never claimed to be except by ignorant libtards.
 
The peace of Salam is one obtained through surrender to God.
 
As for the  Christianity, it does not have a good track record as the 
Religion of Love either.
 
Muatafa
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 5, 2018 - 9:09pm
Stone Eater
re"Mustafa
 
Great comment. But you will neither be heard nor understood it seems."
 
It appears that no one has risen to the challenge. 
 
Mustafa
 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 5, 2018 - 9:10pm
Mustafa, you are one sly, scheming sophist.
 
You are a slavery of that pedophile butcher Muhammad.
 
I refuse to have an intelligent discussion with you until you read five biographies of Americas Founders. Otherwise you’ll employ yourself repeating all the stupid propaganda you Muslims are conditioned to say.  Your own countries are hellholes, yet you blame the west, you pathetic mindless suckers.  Go clean up your own backward, you heathen pedophile savages.
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 5, 2018 - 9:13pm
EXPAT and Ryan, sorry about the bad link.
 
 
Ornament of the World
 
Mustafa
Jeff Michka Added Jun 5, 2018 - 9:37pm
EXPAT tries the old rightist canard of "Sharia Law," somehow becoming the law here.  We hear this regularly from anti-Muslim rightists like Ryan, but they can't ever name a town county or state where Sharia Law has become the law of the land.  I'm sure this might be replied with "what about ___________?", but no cites or proof, like a whole bunch of folks in a town in TX where there all these folks with one hand, having lost the other when Sharia Law was enforced, or dead bodies piled under stones from their stoning. 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 5, 2018 - 10:36pm
Ryan,
 
re:"Mustafa, you are one sly, scheming sophist.
 
You are one adhominem addicted  individual.
 
re:
I refuse to have an intelligent discussion with you until you read five biographies of Americas Founders"
 
Actually, Im starting to think that you are not capable of
"having and intelligent discussion" at all.
 
I already succumbed to your mindless obsessive demands.
I will say it again:
 
I, Mustafa Kemal, 'do solemnly swear that I have read five biographies of  Americas Founders.
 
Since you also use this appeal to authority on the other thread, I feel I have the right to remind you that, four times I have asked you to respond to
 
***********************
"Are you suggesting that the historical Mustafa Kemal was uninformed and corrupt?"

*****************
 
but you fail to do so.
 
Now, let me proceed.
re:"repeating all the stupid propaganda you Muslims"


So, now you know my faith? or is that just your sloppy adhominem
 
re"Go clean up your own backward, you heathen pedophile savages."
 
Are you talking about Aleppo? or Mosul?
 
Speaking of pedophiles, now that you bring yet another meme out,
Check out 
Lori Handrahan
on Guns and Butter. According to her, half of the sado pedophiles in the worlds are from the USA. I dont think she is a muslim so you can trust her.
 
Mustafa 
 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 5, 2018 - 10:42pm
Which ones, Mustafa?  Your ideas don’t remotely suggest you’ve read five.  
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 5, 2018 - 10:51pm
Ryan, so now I need to list them? Sorry, you aint the boss a me.
I already succumbed to admitting irrelevant material. If  I listed them
then you would start to work on my selection and then test my understanding.
 
6th time
***********************
"Are you suggesting that the historical Mustafa Kemal was uninformed and corrupt?"

*****************
 
Mustafa
James Travil Added Jun 5, 2018 - 10:59pm
Well Opher, interesting stuff. As for me I'm pretty intolerant of the intolerant, therefore I have no use for any of the three Abrahamic religions (ie: hate group). That said I can at least coexist with the less zealous, but have less than zero time or patience for fundamentalism of any kind. Overall I have no more use for Islam than Christianity or Judaism. No more fear and loathing either. 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 5, 2018 - 11:14pm
Yes, you do.  I believe you’re lying.  
 
No one cares about Ataturk, not should we.  His country is a mess, and America is the greatest nation on earth.  Priorities!! 
 
To dream that we should learn about Ataturk and not the Founders is beyond stupid.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 5, 2018 - 11:15pm
Travil, you are an uninformed lecher, and are terribly uninformed on at least Christianity.  Kindly don’t comment on matters you know nothing of.
James Travil Added Jun 5, 2018 - 11:21pm
MassAnal I was clearly talking to Opher, not an inbred neanderthal megalomaniac fundy freak like you. Go fuck your mom some more. And for the record I was raised Christian, went to a Christian church and high school, have read the Bible several times and studied Christian history. THAT'S WHY I'M NOT A FILTHY FUCKING CHRISTIAN. Fuck off and die dipshit! 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 5, 2018 - 11:56pm
Ryan,
have you been diagnosed with ADD?
You cant seem to stay on point. Every response I make to your comments you sidestep and try to create a new strawman.
 
re:"Yes, you do.  I believe you’re lying"
 
I really dont care what you believe. Few else do either I maintain.
.  
 
"No one cares about Ataturk, not should we."
That is incorrect. I do.
 
IMO, anyone with any sense should care about Ataturk. Since you clearly know nothing more than his name, how are you so sure that you wouldnt learn something from him and the history that he was part of?   Do you think that ignorance is power?
 
re "His country is a mess"
It is not his country, but it is in a mess, that I will agree with. However, I am pretty sure that you understand very little about that mess is. Certainly you do not understand the impact that Erdogan's destruction of Ataturks legacy and the constitution of Turkey will have on America and the rest of the world. You might want to look at a map and see where it is located. 
 
re:" To dream that we should learn about Ataturk and not the Founders is beyond stupid."
 
To continuously barf out false dichotomies also demonstrates a lack of reasoning ability.
 
Again, I dont understand the "dreaming " thing you are into. But it is not "either you are with us or you are against us" You can do both. You can learn about Turkey AND the Founders.   
 
Now that Ive got you all hot and bothered over Turkey,
 
would you like to talk about about Iran? 
 
Mustafa
 
PS: 7th time
6th time
***********************
"Are you suggesting that the historical Mustafa Kemal was uninformed and corrupt?"

*****************
 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 5, 2018 - 11:57pm
Travil is an excellent example of the degenerate and filthy mouth and minds of the deranged leftists.
 
You have to provoke them to get them to show their true colors.  
 
Once they show their colors, it’s best to avoid them.
James Travil Added Jun 6, 2018 - 12:10am
Fuck off and die MassAnal you punk motherfucker coward. You called me out, now little godboy can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. 
James Travil Added Jun 6, 2018 - 12:12am
And for the record I'm not a "leftist" I'm a moderate independent. Of course compared to a outright fascist like you Ronald Reagan is a "leftist", you lying Nazi fuck. 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 6, 2018 - 12:44am
Part of the reason why I avoid the site is degenerate lunatics like you, who won’t shut up, and aren’t blocked.  You aren’t fit to have a conversation with, or vote.  You are a menace to society and a pathetic excuse for a man.  
 
Eight years ago we shunned and ostracized wicked and evil men like you, now animals like you are allowed to freely speak your mind. 
 
If the Founders knew it was your type they were fighting for, they never would have fought the Revolutionary War.  You are a disgraceful wretched ingrate, and the  recipient of a sacrifice give you don’t deserve.  
 
Ive interacted with your evil, vile, and filthy mouth for long enough. 
 
So here is what will happen.
 
You will get no responses from me, and don’t you dare step foot on my posts. I’ll delete your wicked nonsense so fast it’ll make your head spin.  Just ask Michka.  You and he are the biggest degenerates on here, which is saying quite a bit.  
 
I really dont don’t know how drug addled minds like yours make it in the world, though I don’t suppose you could survive without the drugs.  
 
People like you shouldnt be allowed to own guns, as it’s your type that constantly go on rampages. 
 
Go educate yourself, you foul mouthed pagan.  And don’t address me at all, anymore.  
Ryan Messano Added Jun 6, 2018 - 12:58am
Amazing sophistry, Mustafa.
 
All of that to avoid the simple question, what five biographies of Americas Founders have you read?  I’ll wait.  
 
No no one cares or needs to care about Ataturk.  Stop straining at gnats and swallowing camels.
 
You are the unfortunate product of schools that teach the sophist Protagoras’ idea that “man is the measure of all things”.  He’s not.  Your furious false assertions of logical fallacies deceive and dazzle the simple but those of us who know history know you’re a fraud.
 
Michael B. Added Jun 6, 2018 - 1:10am
Hmmm...I clearly remember being in the UK for a couple of weeks, and also clearly remember being "on guard" for most of the time I was there...very scary and violent, those British Isles.
James Travil Added Jun 6, 2018 - 1:38am
MassAnal WRONG AGAIN YOU LYING SACK OF DOGSHIT! You are the kind of lowlife scumbag that I killed with impunity back in the Gulf War. But I'm sure a little cowardly shitstain like you wouldn't have a clue what service to the nation is about, you wouldn't have the discipline to last through bootcamp let alone in a combat zone. So here is what you are going to do cue ball. Avoid me like the plague, because I will rip you a new one if you dare to interact with me again on this site punk. And if you are ever around the great state of Washington feel free to look me up so we can have a good "talk" one on one, man to punk. And P. S. Wrong as usual I'm no pagan I'm a proud atheist. Damn you can't get anything right, too much inbreeding I guess. Say hi to your mama for me bitch. 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Jun 6, 2018 - 2:04am
They can't/won't integrate into western culture. Period. Their goal is not integration. Why make it easy for them? That's a rhetorical question. 
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:06am
Wow :) I knew it would heat up when Messie comes back LOL
Neil Lock Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:35am
Opher: Fine article, very little I would disagree with. Hope you are enjoying refereeing the fire-storm that has resulted!
 
And yes, Mustafa's first comment in particular is well worth re-reading.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 4:33am
Thomas - I hear what you are saying. The citizens of a country need to buy into the cognitive myths of that society in order for that society to flourish and Islam is not compatible with Christian democracy.
That may be true to an extent. But it is not necessary for all the population to buy into it. I do not buy into the myths of my society. I am opposed to it.
But a society is resilient. It can tolerate dissention to a degree. 
Neither Islam, Judaism nor Hinduism are compatible but there are many instances where they have coexisted harmoniously. 
What is necessary is to absorb the immigrants and integrate them. As you point out there is a transformation when immigrants become citizens - they buy in.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 4:44am
James - I'm with you on that. All three of the Abrahamic religions are profoundly violent, misogynistic and utterly stultifying. It always amazes me that America should be in thrall to an Arab religion that they have little connection with. The hypocrisy of the three religions has to be seen to be believed.
Love.
Turn the other cheek.
Don't walk by on the other side.
It all goes out the window along with napalm and bombs.
It's a power game.
The only good thing is that most adherents are not fundamentalists. They pick the good bits and learn to get along with each other.
Roll on secularism. Religion stinks.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 4:49am
Mustafa - it seems to me that the history of all the Abrahamic religions are based on violence. There's not a lot to be proud of in any of them - a long line of butchery and subjugation, cruelty and war - especially applied to women.
Crusades, Jihads, Inquisitions, Holocausts, Progroms, Genocide, War, Barbarity, witch burning - all in the name of the god of love.
What hypocrisy.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 4:51am
Opher
 
There is a difference between Islam and other religions. Muslims live their religion constantly, or at least are reminded of it by the 5 daily prayers. As far as I know that does not exist in any other monotheistic religion.
 
That's why for them it's often problematic to live in a secular state where religion doesn't play a prominent role. 
 
It's not their fault. People are born into a religion and most don't question it, no matter which one. It's a part of their self-definition. Once they are able to let go of it, they usually become much more tolerant and open to other cultures.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 4:52am
Michael B - maybe you just feel like that because you are out of your comfort zone?
I live here and never ever feel threatened in city centres or pubs anywhere. I've never experienced a violent situation yet in the States, where I lived for one year, I was threatened with a gun and witnessed guns being used on two other occasions.
I did feel more threatened in Brazil though.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 4:54am
Jeffry - that is simply not true. I've had Muslim friends who are fully integrated into society. It's only the fundamentalists who won't. Most are very secularised. They just need integrating.
The majority of Muslims are not extreme and do not want to take over the world. They just want to bring up their families and live in peace.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 4:56am
Neil - it is amazing how entrenched people are. Intelligent discussion is often a rarity. It certainly shows up the hypocrisy of religion.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 4:59am
BTW: I also think that humans are not mentally ready to accept rapid changes in the composition of their own society. To feel "home" gives them some sort of "security". I know who I am and where I come from and that's gotta stay that way, sort of. I understand that OLD cultures have more problems with that than young countries (as the US is - the US should actually be the most tolerant of all because it is, together with Canada and Aussie, the newest country).
 
Any young country consisting of immigrants basically should be the most flexible in its treatment of immigrants and newcomers of any sort.
 
Mind you, Switzerland exists since 1291, and we have the highest percentage of foreigners of all European countries - 30 % of all habitants are foreigners. And we have almost no crime. Why ? Because everybody has the chance to work - if he wants.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:06am
Mustafa - having just reread your opening comment I would agree totally with your conclusion.
If America was to pull out of the ME and put the money they are presently spending on bombing and war into construction we could initiate a new era.
Love is always better than war. It achieves more.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:24am
The majority of Muslims are not extreme and do not want to take over the world.
 
And unicorns actually exist. 
 
You sad misguided fool. 
 
Doug Plumb Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:45am
re "So, Doug, Ryan, Tom, are you willing put up? instead of just shut down? Are you willing to channel that Christian Love into a positive thing?
Are you willing to “positively invest” in our future by reducing our MIC budget by 2/3rds, bring the troops home and participate in A New American Century where we make things other than weapons and war?   For good measure, lets throw in treating Saudi Arabia like the terrorist state that they are."
 
Yes. No one is going to attack USA, even if they didn't have a single bomber. The USA MIC was created to put the Jewish NWO into power.
 
The point that I keep trying to make is that, yes, some Christians are evil, some men are evil, irregardless of their religion, but Christianity doesn't command it, nor does it require you to join any kind of church.
Islam does command that its followers do evil, God speaks through the religious leaders in statutory religions. Christianity requires that you operate by reason and not blindly follow leaders. It is opposite to statutory religions and this is very easy to understand.
People do not wish to understand they want to only hate, and only hate anything that has to do with nationalism, white skin or Christianity. This hatred is the dominating characteristic of the Left and it is a creation of the media. Leftists don't seem to understand propaganda and the effect it has on them. A thousand grooming houses isn't enough. Let one white man paint a Swastica somewhere and they will jump out of their skin, but a million young girls going through these grooming houses somehow doesn't matter - its just a cultural adjustment.
Islamics have no interest in assimilating, them want to make the West Islamic and they tried it before with Europe and had to be chased back home by us evil Christians who don't want to see our women raped.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:49am
re James "MassAnal I was clearly talking to Opher, not an inbred neanderthal megalomaniac fundy freak like you. Go fuck your mom some more. And for the record I was raised Christian, went to a Christian church and high school, have read the Bible several times and studied Christian history. THAT'S WHY I'M NOT A FILTHY FUCKING CHRISTIAN. Fuck off and die dipshit!"
 
The best way NOT to understand Christianity is go to an organized church or a Catholic church. Everyone from these places hates Christianity. The problem with Christian philosophy is that is does require you to think, and a lot of folks don't have the steam to really understand it.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:53am
Doug
 
Isn't it strange that we in Europe get mostly illiterate, fanatical Muslims while the ones who stay at home are reasonal people ? My personal experience from living in Muslim African countries since 1993 more or less.
 
I can't talk of Arab or the ME population, but it looks like an agenda of certain high up circles to import hoodlums to destabilize Europe in order to weaken its economy and therefore cut off a global competitor.
 
Just a thought. It doesn't help - it never helps, btw - to generalize.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:54am
reasonable, sorry. My eyes....
Doug Plumb Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:56am
re "Holocausts," Its a man-bear-pig (half man, half bear, half pig). That's fact. Like it or not.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:57am
Jeffry - you display your lack of experience.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:58am
re "The majority of Muslims are not extreme and do not want to take over the world. They just want to bring up their families and live in peace. "
 
But Islam and its leaders command, and they have a different idea.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:00am
Even more simply put: Under Christianity, Jurisprudence becomes a science, politics becomes a science. Islam or Judaism simply uses these as means to their own ends.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:01am
Doug - Before Isabella decided to gain more power Islam, Christianity and Judaism lived harmoniously for some considerable time.
In London, a cosmopolitan city, all manner of groups live together without friction.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:04am
Stone - nearly all the Muslims I've known have been pleasant reasonable people.
I think we breed those fanatics due to the way we act but inherent in all those traditions is violence and a need to dominate.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:05am
Doug - I do not understand your comment on holocausts - (half man, half bear, half pig) - what does that mean apart from that it adds up to one and a half.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:12am
 you display your lack of experience.
 
That so? Must be because I have never been anywhere or done anything. 
 
One bows to the great, the wonderful HRH Head Teacher. 
 
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:24am
But Islam and its leaders command, and they have a different idea.
 
Sure. But not all Muslims follow them. Not all people follow Scientology, Evangelists, Mormon preachers, any day Adventists, Baptists as not all Muslims are Sufis, Salafists or Wahhabias or any other of those sects.
 
In fact, every religion started as a sect. When you can spread it, you can make money out of it.
 
Difference.....
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:29am
Oph
 
Sure. Every religion takes itself as being the only good one. That's why I say get rid of ALL of them, but this will never happen. We can just sit back, observe, then go for a drink and be happy with a nice woman before playing with the kids.
 
Brains and philosophy have never been able to stop religion and the resulting wars (for economic reasons).
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:06am
Jeffry - you need to.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:08am
Stone - maybe one day human beings will grow up and leave the superstitious rubbish behind. Maybe one day...…...
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:12am
Oph
 
No. People need that "hope". Why ? You only know one condition: To be alive. So it is an enormous problem for most to realize that with death they're NOT alive anymore. An unimaginable thing. That's what religion was invented for at first. To comfort and give a hope that there's no END.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:27am
Stone - fear of death!! But it doesn't take much intelligence to figure out that the whole concept of Heaven, Valhalla, Paradise and the rest is really very naïve and cultural. The Arab concept of Paradise is all about fountains of water and virgins - absolutely no connection to a desert living, repressed culture then? Valhalla is a big hall with loads of beer and wenches. The idea of spending eternity praising god sounds worse than hell to me.
EXPAT Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:38am
Stone. You make a great point about all the different sects in Islam. I believe there are more than any other major religion, even Hindu.
And no one here understands the difference.
But, as in all things the discussion is on the most outrageous sects, like Wahhabi and Salafi, which comprise about 3% of Muslims world wide.
They in turn, are split into about 50 militant groups in the Jihadist Movement of which ISIS/ISIL is a part.
That is why this whole discussion is useless. opher cannot distinguish between the good and bad Muslims, and neither can his government. So they try to hide all the violence they have unleashed on their people!
I posted at least 6 examples of the violence that has taken over London, and of course he is oblivious to it. Google also hides it. I have to use duckduckgo search to get the story.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:41am
as in all things the discussion is on the most outrageous sects, like Wahhabi and Salafi, which comprise about 3% of Muslims world wide.
They in turn, are split into about 50 militant groups in the Jihadist Movement of which ISIS/ISIL is a part.
 
Exactly. Thanks.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:43am
re "Doug - I do not understand your comment on holocausts - (half man, half bear, half pig) - what does that mean apart from that it adds up to one and a half. "
 
That's the point - it doesn't add up.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:45am
Oph
 
ALL those fantasies on "paradise" do pretend that a dead human can carry on his life more or less the same way as before. Take virgins in Islam or "heaven" united with "god". 
 
I mean what complete bullshit. Without a body there's no senses, no movements, nothing. When you die, your harddisk is being erased as well as your RAM ;-)
 
The Brothers Grimm were more realistic LOL
Doug Plumb Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:45am
re "Doug - Before Isabella decided to gain more power Islam, Christianity and Judaism lived harmoniously for some considerable time.
In London, a cosmopolitan city, all manner of groups live together without friction. "
 
I've seen dogs and cats sleeping together, but by nature, they don't get along. Eventually, if circumstances change, cats and dogs won't get along. Its an abberation of nature when they do - and they do as long as they are well fed.
EXPAT Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:51am
opher writes of Islamaphobia, when the true phobia is denialism.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Jun 6, 2018 - 8:21am
you need to.
 
May the flees of a thousand Muzzie's camels infest your armpits. 
 
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 8:28am
Expat - google don't hide it - it's just a gross exaggeration.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 8:30am
Expat - that is the problem. That 3% of the extreme fundamentalist Wahabi version of Islam is what tarnishes the rest. I don't like Islam but 97% of Muslims are not nutters.
Barbaric scum who follow ISIS and Wahabi doctrine need hunting down and locking up. But to paint all Muslims with the same brush is nuts.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 8:31am
Doug - dogs and cats get along fine if they are brought up together.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 8:32am
Stone - well at least the Grimm's admitted it was fairy tales.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 8:34am
Expat - I don't deny the obnoxiousness and threat of ISIS and Wahabism. I just don't extend that to the other 97% of Muslims.
I don't like Islam but most Muslims provide no threat.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 8:35am
Jefry - flees?? Do you mean fleas?? Thank you for your kindness. Much laughed at.
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 8:58am
Ryan,
re:"So here is what will happen.
 
You will get no responses from me, and don’t you dare step foot on my posts. I’ll delete your wicked nonsense so fast it’ll make your head spin. "
 
I must admit Im getting a little afraid, LOL.
 
Mustafa
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 9:01am
Mustafa
 
Don't take that Christian fundamentalist Ryan too seriously. Some people need to hang on to something, no matter what it is. And tolerance is not an allahgodjahweodinbrahma given thing LOL
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 9:18am
Stone Eater,
re:"Don't take that Christian fundamentalist Ryan too seriously."
I certainly am not.  I have this fascination with the connection between
 
arrogance and ignorance
 
Anyway, let me make an observation. With all the  talk of good muzzies and bad muzzies, and mostly bad muzzies as the source of the  worlds problems,  doesnt anyone think that people like Ryan Messano are not a big part of the problems that are out there?
 
Can you imagine any justice in his world?
 
Mustafa
 
 
 
 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 6, 2018 - 9:28am
Absolute truth is kind of scary, Mustafa.  It’s why many don’t find it.  It’s also difficult to find.
 
“rivers and men both run crooked when they follow the path of least resistance”
 
Thoreau 
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 9:33am
Mustafa
 
Ignorant people are ALWAYS the source of ANY problem. Be it because they had no chance for education or they were ideologized. Justice ? No. Justice is paper, that's all. The one who has the cash and the connections is the one who defines justice. For his own good.
 
Socrates, Plato or Echnaton talked about justice about 2'500 years ago. Did anything change ? No. Because our genetics doesn't allow it. Mental evolution seems not fast enough to avoid that we extinct ourselves.
 
Eat or die. Easy as that. We are a part of nature, and nature doesn't know "good" or "bad".
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 9:39am
Ryan, quoting intelligent and wise people doesnt really mean anything. 
 
But I do admit, it can be fun:
 
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.


Hunter S. Thompson
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 9:43am
BTW: When someone tells me now that religion was invented exactly for the reason to educate people to differentiate between "good" and "bad" .... it failed. Why ? Because people have the tendance to think that THEIR POV and opinion is the only right one, since "my family and environment and president tell me so".
 
Using one's own brain has to be learned. And often it's too late in life to make an impact because you get old. In some African cultures they still have the elders which advise the local chiefs, like the Djali in the Bambara/Malinke regions from Mali to Burkina to Ivory Coast. And they listen to them. Age = knowledge = experience = respect.
 
That is lost in our societies.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Jun 6, 2018 - 9:48am
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.


Hunter S. Thompson

 
 
RIP.
 
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 9:53am
When the going gets tough, the tough get going. 
 
Not anymore, I guess. Where did I leave my dumbphone, honey ? ;-)
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 9:55am
lol
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 9:56am
lol2
 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 6, 2018 - 10:15am
The best ideas have already been said, Mustafa.  
 
“The only thing new is the histury you don’t know”
Harry Truman 
 
Proud sophists hate to accept that they aren’t the measure of all things, and that great men and women from the past have ideas that only the foolish ignore, and always to their peril.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 10:18am
Ryan
 
We don't live in 1750. But maybe you could ask Scotty to beam you back there LOL
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 10:27am
BTW: Your comment makes no sense anyway. Why ? Sophists were ancient Greek scholars, and 
 
Proud sophists hate to accept that they aren’t the measure of all things,
 
You talk of pride ? What has pride to do with all that ? And you talk in the present form. Did you ever try to figure out what you're talking about ? Man, man.
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 10:28am
Ryan,
"“The only thing new is the histury you don’t know”
Harry Truman "
 
Ok, now you are quoting those responsible for starting the cold war.?
Are you going hit me with Trump quotes next? Youve come a long way from Thoreau and Plato.
 
But Truman,  who dropped the bomb on Japan to impress Stalin, is not a good choice IMO. Have you heard about him :giving Molotov a straight one-two to the jaw?"   Do you like that type of diplomacy?
 
Here is one that I like:
"It was impossible to get a conversation going; everybody was talking too much."
 Yogi Berra
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 10:36am
Mustafa
 
*clap*
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 10:37am
...Pearls before swine. Gimme some pearls so I can sell them :-)
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 10:39am
BTW: People who talk too much have mostly the least to say. Why ? Because their constant talking doesn't allow them to listen and therefore they are resistent to absorb what the opposite says. African proverb.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 10:46am
Ryan
 
A good advice: When you have the possibility. make a trip to those countries whose religions you hate so much. Take a cheap hotel, sit in a cafe, talk to people and try to see their POV. And in case you're not a complete idiot you will find out that you can make friends there. Because you will find out that these people are not intending to kill you....;-)
Dave Volek Added Jun 6, 2018 - 11:23am
Opher
 
Nice article. I have come to a position in life that I will judge a person by their actions, not the religion they embrace.
 
One reason I got turned off of Christianity in my youth was the inability of Christians not to follow their own teachings. Their words and actions were too different.
 
But there are some great Christians out there, and I admire their ability to use their faith to guide them to make a better world. 
 
The same goes for Muslims. Some are good. Some are not so good.
 
 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 6, 2018 - 11:29am
Mustafa, like a true dilettante, you resist what you don’t understand.  
 
Truman did not start the Cold War.  Communism was truly evil and needed to be resisted.  Patton may have been right when he suggested taking on Russia directly after the World War 2.  MacAurthur had similar ideas with Russia and China.
But Napoleon and Hitler had taught some important lessons about attacking Russia, and so by heeding those, America destroyed Russia without firing a shot.
 
Truman was quite wise, even if temperamental at times, and profane.  Truman dropped the bomb on Japan to avoid 2 million Americans casualties for invading Japan.  It’s not rocket science.  Your mind is badly muddled with nonsense, ahd you can’t see straight.  So Islam appears rational to you, and America appears like the devil.  
 
You like to talk, and are a very stubborn and recalcitrant man.  This suggests you weren’t disciplined as a child, and are a grown boy, having arrested development.  
 
Ive endured your nonsense for long enough.  
 
You are an intransigent scorner and scoffer, (go look those three words up for the first time in your life), and refuse to consider anything that may suggest you are wrong.  You were told three times to list the five biographies of the Founders you’ve read, which your silly ideas glaringly reveal you have not, and you, kicking and screaming, have still not done it.  That’s the root of your problem.  A lack of knowledge, and a stubborn refusal to do anything about it. I don’t make a habit of telling your type anything much.  You nearly always reject it, because you don’t care about WHAT is right, you care about WHO is right. With that attitude, you are doomed to never learn, and you fit in nicely with the Muslim world.  
 
Sadly, the only way to deal with obstreperous types like you, it to openly humiliate you, for your good, and the good of the impressionable onlooker.  You rarely learn, but the onlooker often does.
 
You laugh and joke about the truth, and so it eludes you.
 
So, you can count on this being the last comment directed your way, until you list those five biographies.  You like to think of yourself as debonair and wise already, and the idea you have more to learn is repugnant to you. So it’s impossible to have a reasonable conversation with your type, because other than a bulldogged assertion that your view of the world, however misguided, is worthy, you bring nothing to the table.
 
Humility comes before honor.   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 6, 2018 - 11:49am
What crap is this:>>Christianity, it does not have a good track record as the Religion of Love either>>  However Judaism and Christianity are not by their own word also a government.  Islam proclaim being a government, God's Government, and states that God's government is the only legitimate government.  Christian leaders of governments can claim to approved by the religion of the nation but their actions are independent of the religion.
 
Opher, >>Thomas - I hear what you are saying. The citizens of a country need to buy into the cognitive myths of that society in order for that society to flourish and Islam is not compatible with Christian democracy.

That may be true to an extent. But it is not necessary for all the population to buy into it. I do not buy into the myths of my society. I am opposed to it.>>  Actually Opher it is a fact an the myth is all on the Muslim side.
 
Opher, Islam is a GOVERNMENT AND A RELIGION, from above, "Mohammad conquered the Arabian Peninsula. In the century after Islam religious government, Caliphate conquered," These are acts of a government Opher.   A Caliphate, Islamic proclaimed government, is a government applying Sharia law.  Even you can not argue that Sharia law is not right out of Islam.  Thus religion and government are ONE!  Sharia law is not compatible with western nations laws, Judaeo Christian laws.  Again go back to the Supreme Court definition of being a citizen.  This is the international understanding of being a citizen.  A Muslim chooses Islam or the nation's laws to follow they can not follow both.  And Islam clearly present their response to a rejection, "Not only did Muhammad teach that Muslims are to murder those who have left Islam, "wherever you find them", he further taught that a Muslim who commits this type of murder will be doing God's service and be rewarded! Bukhari, volume 9, #17, #57, and #64 ref: http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/terrorism.htm  
 
 Thus a Muslim really has no choice.  They can create their own myth that they are working to in the future turn the present government into a Muslim nation.  That is committing treason, being a member of a fifth column.  They have not way out.   Opher do not point a finger at Christians.  Your the one that must live under a myth that the process of change is following the laws of a nation.   I have not seen in America one amendment to the Constitution that moves us toward Islam as the national religion.  
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 11:52am
Ryan,  
 
re;"Truman dropped the bomb on Japan to avoid 2 million Americans casualties for invading Japan."
 
That propaganda number actually kept going up over the years.  
Japan was beat.. All they wanted was to keep their emporer. This is an old worn out meme that anyone who reads knows is a lie. I thought you could read.
 
Anyway,  I indeed succumbed again to your sidetracking.  You are not very good at it, but persistent I do admit.
 
Let me remind you of where we are at;  the very beginning:
 
8th time:
***********************
"Are you suggesting that the historical Mustafa Kemal was uninformed and corrupt?"

*****************
Mustafa
 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 6, 2018 - 12:00pm
The reader can learn a lot from Mustafa. Like most Muslims he refuses to learn anything outside of what he currently knows, and insists his knowledge of what matters little is consequential. 
 
He can't name five generals from World War 2 in the Pacific Theater, but insists he is an expert on why the atom bomb was dropped.  It's really hilarious.  What's sad is so many people fall for it.
 
I don't even respond directly.  I make a business of highlighting all the knowledge he lacks, which is stupendous, to show everyone why his opinion is totally useless. 
 
That said, responding to his type is only useful to teach others.  He is too far gone to recover. 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 6, 2018 - 12:01pm
LOL, he is still asking a question that matters not at all, and which 95% of the people on this site rightly don't give two hoots about.
 
Look at the tenacity though.  You have to admire it.
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 12:04pm
Ryan, 
re:"You like to think of yourself as debonair"
You mean like Walter Sobchak?
 




Walter Sobchak: Am I wrong?
The Dude: No. your not wrong.
Walter Sobchak: Am I wrong? 
The Dude: No, you're not wrong Walter, you're just an asshole.
Walter Sobchak: Okay then. 
 
 
Mustafa




 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 6, 2018 - 12:07pm
The reader can also learn from Mustafa why watching hellivision is a bad idea.  You know all about nonsense, and little about true wisdom. 
 
Quoting hellivision is a sign of a deficient and atrophied intellect.
Dave Volek Added Jun 6, 2018 - 12:09pm
I find Mustafa one of the more enlightened contributors on WB. I don't always agree with him, but he presents his points quite well. 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 6, 2018 - 12:14pm
That's because your historical comprehension is on par with his.  Birds of a feather flock together.  You likely have never read five biographies of the Founders either, and if you have, you certainly didn't retain much. 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 12:16pm
Ryan, you are so funny. 
re:"He can't name five generals from World War 2 in the Pacific Theater, but insists he is an expert on why the atom bomb was dropped.  It's really hilarious.  "
 
Please answer me this.  What does being able to name 5 generals from WW2 in the pacific have to do with why the atom bomb was dropped?
 
Again, you jump to conclusions. I am not insisting I am expert on anything. 
 
Mostly its your lack of reasoning ability that astounds me.
 
re:"LOL, he is still asking a question that matters not at all, and which 95% of the people on this site rightly don't give two hoots about."
 
Yet with more logical fallacies. It matters not what people on this site give hoots about. It is something  that YOU said and I am responding to it.  So it definitely "matters" to our discussion. 
 
9th time:
***********************
"Are you suggesting that the historical Mustafa Kemal was uninformed and corrupt?"

*****************
 
I answered your irrelevant question: yes I have read 5 biographies. Now maybe you could indulge me and answer 
my question relevant to your statement.
 
 
Mustafa
 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 6, 2018 - 12:27pm
Nah, Mustafa, we aren't talking anymore.  You list those biographies first.
We can talk all day, but you have the hide of an armadillo.  The naïve reader actually will believe your reasonable sounding responses are correct.  You and many others are badly deceived, and stubbornly refuse to do anything about it. 
 
I'm actually trying to guide you to understanding, but you kick and fight. 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 12:44pm
Ryan, 
re"Nah, Mustafa, we aren't talking anymore.  You list those biographies first."
 
Respect mu authoritah is it?
 
BTW, what is hellivision? If you are adhomining television, then I have not watched since 1969.
 
Mustafa
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Jun 6, 2018 - 1:36pm
"Well I have a great distaste for all religion and see the Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Jews and Muslims all as bad as each other. "
 
No bigotry here. 
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Jun 6, 2018 - 1:40pm
I am wondering, after pondering this article, what we do about chants like  "Death to America" and similar  threats to those who do not wish to embrace Islam. 
 
How, then, should we treat and regard Iran?
 
Perhaps we should acknowledge that  we are non belivers. 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 1:59pm
ryck,
re: what we do about chants like  
"Death to America" and similar  threats to those who do not wish to embrace Islam. 
 
How, then, should we treat and regard Iran?"
 
The first thing we could do is stop misrepresenting what they are saying.
 
It has nothing to do with belief. It has to do with the US interfering in their society.  You can start with the Mosadeq coup followed by years of sanctions and now renegging on the nuke deal. 
They dont care about your beliefs.   In fact, most Iranians are not very religious at all. 
 
You can also add in the Iraq/Iran US proxy war to punish them for their revolution that took their country back from the US installed dictator. There  Iran lost something like 500K men, producing many chemical weapons victims.  If Iran had caused the deaths of half a million americans, how would you feel?
 
And if you need to bring up the nuclear bogey man, which Trump and Netanyahu so successfully resuscated, you might want check out
Manufactured Crisis
 
Its pretty straightforward. Since the fall to the soviets our huge cold war apparatus needed bogeymen, so that NK and Iran rose to that special position. On the cover you can see Netanyahu with his Wile E. Coyote cartoon LIE, very much like the recent gong show he performed before the renegging on the Iran deal.
 
Moving the embassy to Jerusalem shows clear signs of being the 
"great Satan".  Again, it has nothing to do with beliefs. That is a 
Red Herring.
 
Mustafa
Doug Plumb Added Jun 6, 2018 - 2:52pm
Thomas re "Sharia law is not compatible with western nations laws, Judaeo Christian laws. "
 
There is actually no such thing as a Judeo-Christian law. Under Christianity, the laws of reason apply to all. Under Jewish law, non Jews have no rights other than that which the Jew gives them. We are here to serve them under Jewish law, and anyone that doesn't understand this either refuses to think or refuses to look.
As far as the US wars of empire, they are not in the interest of the American people. The US government is a proxy for Israel and the US will be destroyed serving Israel and the Jewish people if this insanity doesn't stop.
Multiculturalism is a Jewish agenda. The Frankfurt School is a Jewish organization and Karl Marx spits out what is primarily Jewish philosophy. The USA is bankrupt to Jewish banks.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:07pm
Mustafa - Christians are weird. Don't get hung up on it.
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:09pm
Doug, Israel is at this point in time more democratic then America.  The theology of both religions is salvation vs judgmental for Islam (prior to 550 BC  Judaism was judgmental) The laws in both countries are based on the theology and the common history of the societies.  In the colonies and at the start of America state religions actually existed.  Thus the same thing that you say about Israel was true.  
 
Karl Marx may have been raised a Jew.  Socialism places man's laws above God so trying to connect any religion to socialism is ludicrous.  
 
America since the end of the cold war has in my opinion not had a foreign policy since every new president change it.  
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:13pm
Dave - that is true. Most religious people are either hypocrites who do the opposite of the scriptures they follow or people who select verses to suit themselves. Both are just as evil.
The trouble with all religions is that they are both ambiguous and full of contradictory views. You can select to reflect love and peace or hate and revenge as is your wish.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:16pm
re "Doug, Israel is at this point in time more democratic then America. "
Yes, for Jews.
 
re "Karl Marx may have been raised a Jew.  Socialism places man's laws above God so trying to connect any religion to socialism is ludicrous."
 
Jews do not believe in God Thomas. They are their own God. They are Talmudic, not Old Testament.
You are right, IMO, socialism and God are incompatible - in fact this is true actually, its not opinion.
 
re "America since the end of the cold war has in my opinion not had a foreign policy since every new president change it."
 
Other than the wars for world government and banker hedgemony ?
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:17pm
Ryan - certainly communism and socialism are the enemy of the capitalists. They like to exploit everyone and take the wealth for themselves. Communism and socialism look towards a fairer distribution. No wonder the capitalists brainwashed everyone against the idea. It would rob them of their wealth. They sure don't like fairness or equality. They are too greedy and selfish.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:19pm
Thomas, you know that the BIS is the central bank clearing house for the world, right ? Have you ever watched the movie "The Real Face Of The European Union?" This movie explains how laws are made for the Union.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:21pm
Thomas - you are wrong. Both Christianity and Judaism have run theocracies as well as Islam. Britain was a theocracy that burnt witches who followed the old religion and tortured people. We got rid of the religious nutters. We sent them to America. Israel is a theocracy run by religious extremists and America is a backdoor theocracy (just try to see an atheist or Muslim run for office).
Doug Plumb Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:23pm
The phrase "homosexual mafia" has been around for a while and the term has been used by many. Birds of a feather stick together. Its a bad idea to have people in a small minority group run governments, whether that small minority is melevolent or benevolent. Even if everyone in gov belonged to the same bird watching group, we would have cause for concern.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:23pm
Ryan - America dropped the bomb on Japan to see the effects on a city and to warn everyone else. It was purely political.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:27pm
ryck - I'm surprised that you see my distaste for religion with all its hatred, wars, terror, torture, lies, hypocrisy and fears as bigotry. I would have thought it's plain common sense.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:29pm
rycK - I suggest that we stop threatening them and then they might be a bit more friendly.
We have a history of bombing and killing in the ME. It's no wonder they take a dim view.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:29pm
Fake news Opher.
 
Can you name five battles in the Pacific from World War 2? 
 
I doubt it.  Again, your conclusions are rooted in your being uninformed. 
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:30pm
Well put Mustafa.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 3:32pm
Doug - by heavens it is all a Jewish plot! And I thought it was a commie plot! But no communism is part of the Jewish plot!
LOL!!!
Benjamin Goldstein Added Jun 6, 2018 - 4:07pm
Just jumped over the comments without reading them all. As usual on WB, I speak in the name of the Elders and confirm all the Jewish conspiracies.
 
Anyway, you guys know that I'm completely against Islamophobia and have been in discussions with Ian Thorpe and Opher over false accusations about women being whipped for not wearing the veil. I do separate, however, the accusations that are true and I do see more downplaying of the problems than their exaggeration.
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 4:12pm
Ryan, 
re:"Fake news Opher.
 
Can you name five battles in the Pacific from World War 2? "
 
You just dont seem to get it.
 
In a conversation, you dont to  quiz us on our qualifications.
You dont have the authority.  You are not the boss.
 
Maybe you should form a club, the 
 
"I have read these 5 biographies of the American Founders and written these book reports to prove that I understand them"
 
club.  
 
Then you guys to could move on past the inanities -if you care to.
 
Mustafa
 
 
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 4:16pm
opher,
re:"We got rid of the religious nutters. We sent them to America."
 
thanks, we really appreciate it.
Mustafa
Ryan Messano Added Jun 6, 2018 - 4:21pm
Zip it, Mustafa.  Five biographies.  
 
You are to lazy to learn but demand to have your uninformed opinion respected.  Typical Muslim.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:00pm
Seems Ryan is issuing orders.  Better  jump to it, Mustafa...And better answer his question, opher or Ryan won't "approve" of you, or even say things to you indicating your even human.  You need to read those bios so you, like Ryan, can slip on your powdered wig and whisper to the founding fathers like Ryan does.  LOL
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:40pm
You are mixing up that men say they are Christians or Jews and prove it by go to the places of practicing these religions.   You assume that they actually succeed.  But the reason for salvation theology is that man is incapable of not sinning.  You give great examples of man sinning.  Men are not angles including the pope.   The Jews switch in 550 BC from judgement theology to salvation theology when they came to believe that God expelled them from the promise land because man can not stop himself from sinning.   
 
Islam is a judgement theology that believes man is capable of not sinning.  And the leaders of the religion and government are men that speech for God because they do not sin.    Big difference.  Sharia law to a Muslim is handed down from God.  No compromise is possible with God created law.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:44pm
Yawn. Oph/Mustafa
 
4get it. Closed minds can't be opened with arguments. Use your time to discuss things with people which are capable to listen-read and reflect :)))
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:46pm
My or your belief in God is not the issue.  If a society believe in a religion then is exist in their group conscious and our individual opinion is on no consequence.  If members of that society die in defense of the society it doesn't matter if they believe in God or not the society will assume they do and death has silenced them forever.
 
The bank and other examples you give maybe true but that doesn't matter if society disagree with your opinion.  Only with the social conscious believes does it matter.  
Leroy Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:47pm
Opher, I thought you might enjoy this video from Blonde in the Belly of the Beast on the price of freedom.  She calls it as she sees it.  Her perspective on the UK is dead on.  It's time for the UK to stand up for its freedom.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:48pm
Messie
 
"Typical Muslim".  As if you'd ever met one. You're such a self-righteous guy. And you're not even clever enough to see your own limitations. Stop insulting people here. Better stay away.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:50pm
,Wow, the Sutrino must be one helluva AE.  "Men are not angles".  No, they are human beings, blessed by FDR, as the Sutrino decays one more.  Where do you get this stuff, and does Boeing know the crap you believe?
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 5:51pm
Btw:
 
"To lazy to learn". Ever heard about grammar, Ryan-boy ?
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:12pm
Ben - well there certainly is a problem with Islam, as there are with all religions, and we have to take steps to protect ourselves against the fundamentalist terrorists but I like to keep the problem in perspective.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:13pm
Mustafa - you might not appreciate it but we certainly did.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:14pm
Jeff - I think I've read my fill of the founding fathers. Time we moved into the 21st century.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:17pm
Thomas - seeing as god is a fiction created by man I reckon there is every compromise with law. We humans make the laws and do so to make things work well. That's all.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:18pm
Stone - you are right. Let the dying die as Beefheart said.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:20pm
Now Thomas - that makes sense. The collective beliefs in imaginary things (gods, kings/presidents, nations, money - none of which are real - or at least only in the minds of men) is what holds them together.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:20pm
Stone, objective truth is better than subjective truth.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 6:27pm
Leroy - is this really the type of right-wing crap that you listen to? She hasn't got a clue.
Tommy Robinson is a neo-Nazi former football hooligan. He has been spreading racist islamophobic propaganda and is leading the EDL a nasty right-wing group. He was given a court order to stop him spreading his lies. He chose to go against it and was rightly arrested. He was inciting hatred. A nasty piece of work.
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:08pm
Ryan - time you started with the objective stuff then!
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:08pm
opher, 
re:"Mustafa - you might not appreciate it but we certainly did."
I bet. 
Did you know that here in the US we grew up on the idea that the pigrims came here for religious freedom?  After some time we finally figured out it had more to do with the freedom to impose their views.
 
Mustafa
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:10pm
Ryan, 
re:"Zip it, Mustafa.  Five biographies. "
Now you are giving commands? Do you normally give commands that you cannot enforce?
 
Mustafa
opher goodwin Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:13pm
Mustafa - religious fundamentalists always want to impose their views on everyone else. They are bullies.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:27pm
opher hit it right on the head:  Ryan is just another overly aggressive cyberbully, and probably even tries it IRL.   It's why Ryan issues orders and commands, thinking "they'll do anything to get my approval, but it will never be enough until those people just go away.  Wish I could bring back the thread where Ryan got handed his hat by a Muslim.  And Ryan made demands of the Muslim, and when was asked to supply the same info, handed the "defense of Xtainity to a WB religious fanatical woman, then slunk off only to reappear when he'd get kick off Facebook. 
Doug Plumb Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:34pm
re "Opher, I thought you might enjoy this target="_blank">video from Blonde in the Belly of the Beast on the price of freedom.  She calls it as she sees it.  Her perspective on the UK is dead on.  It's time for the UK to stand up for its freedom. "
 
Everyone should just say whatever they think, even better, piss someone off, get it all out. Its therapy, you have to deal with issues rather than let them fester, explode and make a mess.
 
I think Ryan is just pissed and frustrated at the ignorance of some on here.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:36pm
re " Both Christianity and Judaism have run theocracies as well as Islam. Britain was a theocracy that burnt witches who followed the old religion and tortured people. We got rid of the religious nutters. "
 
You have to learn to distinguish the church and/or monarchies from Christianity. They are not all the same thing in Christianity. They are in Islam. Start learning something about that which you criticize.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:37pm
Yes, Doug.  I'm very angry at the baby boomers who created this messed up world by refusing to fight for the morality they were given. I'm absolutely outraged that I, and others, at 38, have to fix a world that those lazy baby boomers failed to maintain, because they were too busy having fun and making money to bother with morality.  Now we have a royal mess.  And I am VERY ANGRY!
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:37pm
Doug, 
re:"I think Ryan is just pissed and frustrated at the ignorance of some on here"
 
Is that how you see my interaction with him?
 
Mustafa
Leroy Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:46pm
"Tommy Robinson is a neo-Nazi former football hooligan. He has been spreading racist islamophobic propaganda and is leading the EDL a nasty right-wing group. He was given a court order to stop him spreading his lies. He chose to go against it and was rightly arrested. He was inciting hatred. A nasty piece of work."
 
He was reporting on the criminal gangs and how the UK gives a free pass to minority groups.  He was silenced because the UK government doesn't want the word to get out that their children are being raped.  Makes the minorities look bad, you know.  The government is desperately trying to put lipstick on a pig.
 
She is a very rational, articulate young lady.  Are you a misogynist, Opher?  Dismissing her as a rightwing fanatic is nothing more than an ad hominem attack to legitimize the message. 
EXPAT Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:48pm
opher posts.
Expat - that is the problem. That 3% of the extreme fundamentalist Wahabi version of Islam is what tarnishes the rest. I don't like Islam but 97% of Muslims are not nutters.
Barbaric scum who follow ISIS and Wahabi doctrine need hunting down and locking up. But to paint all Muslims with the same brush is nuts.
 
You poor fool. YOU and your Progressive government are the ones who cannot tell a murdering Jihadist from an immigrant, and so welcome both to your peril.
 
Why do you lie about what is going on in London? The sources I posted the horror stories of rape and murder are the MSM!
 
A. Jones Added Jun 6, 2018 - 7:59pm
Back in the sixties my Muslim friends were all very Westernised.
 
That was fifty years ago. Back in the '60s, Muslims were not radicalized by Wahhabi extremism and peer pressure to commit jihad against western values of liberalism and pluralism as they are today. They weren't recruited by radical clerics at their mosques to martyr themselves by wearing suicide bomb vests and blowing up discotheques and hotel lobbies for the sake of killing infidels (as well as getting into the panties of 72 virgins).
 
The problem is that you're living in the past; you're mentally stuck in 1968. You're in denial about the changes that have occurred among Muslims over the past 50 years.
 
Well fortunately little of the paranoia of those times came to fruition.
 
I've reread that sentence a dozen times and it still doesn't make sense. How, pray tell, does "paranoia" (which, you claim, already existed in the UK) come to "fruition"? You probably meant that the paranoia, which already was evident at the time, did not result in violent action against Muslims. Got it. "Come to fruition" has a different meaning.
 
All immigrant populations display a higher level of fertility than the endemic population. That will soon settle.
 
That will "soon" settle? Even you don't believe that, because in a following sentence you write, "I predict that in forty years time most of the Muslims will have integrated." So, you would like the UK to wait 40 years — approximately two generations — for the radicalized Muslim population to integrate and "settle"? Forty years is your idea of "soon"? You're dreaming. Radicalized Muslims are not interested in settling and integrating; they've been instructed by their religious leaders to emigrate and procreate with the ultimate goal of reestablishing Dar al-Islam — a caliphate, where Islam is the dominant religious practice, and everyone else is officially a "dhimmi", a 2nd-class citizen.
 
The only reason I can see that you would spit on your own western native countrymen for their genuine concern over these issues is simple "virtue signaling." S.O.P for the left in all western countries.
EXPAT Added Jun 6, 2018 - 8:24pm
Ryan.
"The reader can learn a lot from Mustafa. Like most Muslims he refuses to learn anything outside of what he currently knows,....."
I do not believe Mustafa is a Muslim. He shows little first hand knowledge of Islam! What he posts is a common misunderstanding of Hadith and Islam, as proffered by the left.
My guess would be that he is a San Francisco Progressive Democrat, and IT Tech.
 
he refuses to learn anything outside of what he currently knows,....."
That is what Progressives share with Jihadist Muslims; not all. The Sufi Muslims are always seeking truth.
A. Jones Added Jun 6, 2018 - 8:27pm
 and that's where most of the violence occurs.
 
Muslim attacks on Christians in the Philippines and Indonesia have zero to do with internecine antipathy between Sunni and Shia.
 
You're in denial.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 6, 2018 - 8:43pm
Hey, Mustafa, Ryan just wants to exercise his hatred of Muslims.  It's likely there will be Muslims and people of color attending schools in the district he is running for school board in.  I think handing Ryan his head in an election setting for promoting his hateful extremism might teach him something, but wouldn't hold my breath.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 6, 2018 - 8:47pm
It will be worth to try, at the very least.  I like oppoR work, anyway.  coming u with Ryan dirt will be too easy, given even his words since "returning."  And despite all the handwriniging, an ISP HAS A RIGHT TO TOSS OBNOXIOUS PEOPLE OFF their service.  I got a feeling ol Ryan started ordering the ISP around, demanding he reads certain books and instantly does what he told the ISP to do...
EXPAT Added Jun 6, 2018 - 8:51pm
opher is in complete denial about London violence by Muslims.
 
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-44054304
 
An urgent investigation into the recent surge in violent crime in the capital has been launched by members of the London Assembly.
This year the Met Police has recorded 62 murders, of which 39 involved knives and 10 where guns were used.
The Police and Crime Committee will look at why there has been an upsurge and why police tactics are failing.
Chairman Steve O'Connell said the mayor and the Met "need to take hold of the situation".
A spokesperson for Sadiq Khan said violent crime was "simply unacceptable" and keeping Londoners safe was his "top priority".
 
Figures from the police show that 45 murders were recorded between January and March in 2018, compared to 23 in the same period in 2017.
Half of the the victims of knife crime have been aged under 25.

Met gang database 'not fit for purpose'
Solving London violence at a local level
Can Scotland help London stop violent deaths?

The committee is set to examine the mayor's knife crime strategy, the effectiveness of social media and advertising campaigns about violent crime, and the knife detection wands which have been offered to schools.
It will also look at alternative approaches which could be applied in the capital.
Mr O'Connell said the committee "are determined to find out what is working and what is not, so more families don't face the heartache of losing a loved one to violent crime".
The mayor's spokesperson said Mr Khan "remains in constant contact with the Met Police and is reassured that they are doing everything they can to bring those responsible to justice".
Scotland Yard has not yet commented on the investigation.
EXPAT Added Jun 6, 2018 - 8:59pm
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5251268/london-stabbings-2018-london-knife-crime-statistics-liverpool-street-kensington-greenwich-higham-hill-brent/
 
'SENSELESS VIOLENCE'
London stabbings 2018 – London knife crime statistics including attacks in Liverpool Street, Kensington, Greenwich and Higham Hill


Dozens of people have been fatally stabbed in the capital since the beginning of this year.
 
How many stabbings took place in London and other regions in the UK over the last year?
At least 37 people have been fatally stabbed - and 62 overall killed - in London since the beginning of the year.
Met Police records show 37, 443 recorded knife offences and 6,694 recorded gun offences across the UK in the year up to September 2017.
 
In London, the problem was even more pronounced than the rest of the country, with 12,980 knife crimes taking place in the capital - 2,452 more than the equivalent year.
Four teenagers were stabbed to death in London on New Year's Eve alone, and 22 were killed in March - meaning the capital now has a higher murder rate than New York
The popular US city had a mere 21 killings in comparison.
Commander Neil Jerome of the Met's territorial policing command condemned the crimes, saying the four families had lost a loved one to "senseless violence and the callous use of knives as lethal weapons".
Jeffry Gilbert Added Jun 6, 2018 - 9:47pm
I have watched the foreign Muzzies invade Bangkok for nearly two decades. At first they all gathered around one end of one Soi (Street) in a more affluent part of town and pretty much kept a low profile. Then it was two Sois, then three to where now its two dozen and that part of town is now quite dangerous and frankly nasty with the influx of black African muzzies and the multi-culturalism they bring with them. 
 
This is quite different from one of the traditional Thai Muslim parts of town that has existed for generations, fits in well and causes no problems. A part of town I actually lived in and was accepted by for some time.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 6, 2018 - 10:04pm
One Soi at a time, eh, Captain?
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 11:31pm
Ryan
 
"Truth" can have many forms....it is always subjective as everything is in fact. Therefore "truth" does not exist. You see that in history pretty clearly. During millenia the "truth" was that earth was flat. Then Kepler and the like entered the scene and oops "truth" changed....
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 11:33pm
BTW: People should be careful using definitions. How do you say in English ? Everything is in the eye of the beholder....or so.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 11:39pm
Jeffry
 
Same in Switzerland. But here it's Maghreb Muslims who make problems, or Kosovo people. In Senegal which is 95% Muslim no problem. As I said it seems to be system to export hoodlums from wherever to destabilize existing communities in the name of "Islam". Because here these so-called Muslim young men simply drink, take drugs, fuck around places and at the same time yell Allahu Akhbar. Doesn't add up somehow....
Jeffry Gilbert Added Jun 6, 2018 - 11:42pm
Same in Switzerland.
 
Same everywhere whether the author choses to see it or not. 
 
Stone-Eater Added Jun 6, 2018 - 11:52pm
BTW
 
Muslim countries are in the majority poor. No need to discuss why here....takes too long. But when I'm from Burkina Faso, born Muslim by tradition and without job and cash and a guy comes up and says: Listen, I pay you the fare to place x and monthly "salary" of 20000 CFA for the family, would you agree ? All you have to do is work for us there. We need more followers.....I know two guys like that because my stepson comes from Mali. These people say Allah my ass but they paid my travels and all I want is a white girl, a resident permit and the newest iShit.
 
That's the reality. Religion plays no part in it in fact.
A. Jones Added Jun 7, 2018 - 12:06am
During millenia the "truth" was that earth was flat. Then Kepler and the like entered the scene and oops "truth" changed....
 
You're a Matterhorn of misinformation.
 
That the earth is in fact a sphere was known even in antiquity. Oddities like the Flat Earth Society didn't appear until the 19th century, long after the Scientific Revolution had begun.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 7, 2018 - 12:18am
Jones
 
I'm talking of the Middle Ages in Europe. Here Flat Earthers would get free treatment in a mental ward.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 7, 2018 - 12:20am
BTW: Congrats for the Matterhorn. You seem to have bern here....
Ryan Messano Added Jun 7, 2018 - 12:29am
Nope, Stone, truth is absolute.
 
The sophists of Athens thought like you, and it destroyed Athens.  Nothing new under the sun.
opher goodwin Added Jun 7, 2018 - 3:56am
Doug - should everyone just say what they think - even if it is lies or incitement to hate? Even if it is completely wrong?
I don't mind expressing an opinion but spreading lies as fact is simply wrong.
What she was saying was factually rubbish.
opher goodwin Added Jun 7, 2018 - 3:57am
Doug - a theocracy is a theocracy. Britain was ruled by Christianity and it stank. Read Wolf Hall and Bring up the Bodies by Hilary Mantell. That's what theocracies do.
opher goodwin Added Jun 7, 2018 - 4:00am
Expat - I happen to live in the UK and have a son in London as well as lots of friends who I visit regularly. I think I have a picture of what is going on better than someone who lives thousands of miles away and gets their information from bogus extreme sources who lie and exaggerate.
opher goodwin Added Jun 7, 2018 - 4:09am
A Jones - I am well aware in the change in Muslims over the last 50 years as a result of illegal wars and bombing of Muslim countries. The Wahabi doctrine is despicable but is a small minority. It will take time to settle and is not helped by continual unjust wars. To tarnish all Muslims is simply racism.
The paranoia created by Enock Powell back in 1968 when he stated that England would be in civil war, the rivers would run with blood and in twenty years the black man would hold the whip hand, was aimed at the black, mainly Jamaican, immigrants, and has not come to pass. Back then the racism was aimed at blacks more than anybody else. That racism has receded, black people are mainly integrated into society and accepted.
The new racism is aimed at fear of Muslims with the same paranoia and warnings.
They will also come to nothing. There are problems. They will be dealt with. In time, when the wars are over, they will settle and be assimilated just as they were in the sixties. Most will become secularised and integrated.
Instead of racist stereotyping we should be looking at ways of reducing tensions, dealing with radicalisation and integrating.
 
opher goodwin Added Jun 7, 2018 - 4:11am
A Jones - of course there are attacks of Muslims against Christians. There are attacks of Christians on Muslims. But most Muslim terrorism and violence has been Sunni and Shia.
You're being stupid.
opher goodwin Added Jun 7, 2018 - 4:14am
Expat - yes we have a spate of knife crime. It is terrible. It isn't Muslims though. It is black and white gangs and drug related. It has got out of hand because of savage cuts in police numbers under this Tory government.
opher goodwin Added Jun 7, 2018 - 4:16am
A Jones the earth as a sphere might have been known but wasn't widely accepted. It's not anything to do with a society! Get real.
opher goodwin Added Jun 7, 2018 - 4:19am
Ryan - truth is not absolute. It changes. You believe a bunch of lies as truth. History changes.
Quantum Physics even undermines the whole of Newtonian Physics. There are no truths only opinions.
You get your information from biased sources that exaggerate and lie. The truth you believe are a pack of lies.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 7, 2018 - 6:15am
re "Is that how you see my interaction with him?
 
Mustafa  "
 
No, not you. I don't really understand your perspective but I don't think you are a fool. I also think Ryan is right about most things regarding the politic.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 7, 2018 - 6:21am
There is Melinda Gates calling for discrimination against Whites.  So its not only the Islamics, but the bankster/ruling elite hate white people too.
Doug Plumb Added Jun 7, 2018 - 6:23am
Correction: The Islamics hate Christians, the banksters hate white skin that isn't theirs.
Leroy Added Jun 7, 2018 - 7:59am
Another out of Africa moment is in the making.  It will dwarf anything the world has seen before.  If it is not stopped, Europe will become like the shitholes from where they originate.  Who knows; maybe in the very long term, it is a benefit, but for the Europe we know and love, it will be disastrous.   Britain may be stronger today as a result of the Viking invasions, but I'd bet the people experiencing it lacked that vision.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 7, 2018 - 8:28am
Nicely done, Opher.
 
I didn’t read the comments because I didn’t need to.
 
 
I had much of the same argument with someone on Twitter.  The reality is immigrants adjust to the society they move to.  The first generation sticks out but their children don’t because they learn the language, they intermarry with the locals and adopt their customs.  They also have less children because they don’t need to.
 
The reality is with declining birthrates in the western world we need these newcomers.  Their children will fill positions vacated by the aging population.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 7, 2018 - 8:44am
Oph
 
There are attacks of Christians on Muslims. But most Muslim terrorism and violence has been Sunni and Shia.
 
? Nope. Sunni and Shia are like Catholic and Protestant in a way. They are not the source. The source are the extremists on both sides, be it the Salafists, the Wahhabi or other offsprings who simply work for money or power, not for their, what they call, belief.
 
By the way: The Quran itself is no threat. The threat are the Hadith which are "footnotes" to the Quran (but meanwhile bigger than the Quran itself) which were introduced by Imams over the centuries which didn't have religion in mind but power.
 
The original Quran does not forbid smoking or alcohol, and excision on women is also not a subject. People just interpret things into it in order to create an enemy. At the times of Mohamed in Medina women didn't even wear a head scarf.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 7, 2018 - 8:48am
Leroy
 
Europe exploited Africa ever since. It's just a sign of justice that we also get to learn now how life is with difficulties....
Stone-Eater Added Jun 7, 2018 - 8:51am
Oph
 
There are no truths only opinions.
 
Thank you.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 7, 2018 - 8:58am
Jeffrey
 
Good observation. I hate that argument too that we are flooded with immigrans while at the same time it is too costly in Switzerland to have kids. That's not the fault of the people but the fault of ruthless capitalists in the housing and food sector, plus the age of job loss due to digitalization where a lot of people simply can't cope with it.
Leroy Added Jun 7, 2018 - 9:32am
"The reality is with declining birthrates in the western world we need these newcomers.  Their children will fill positions vacated by the aging population."
 
That's true, Jeffrey because our economic models are based on growth, not sustainability.  Europe, particularly, Germany, has a shortage of workers to support those who are retiring.  Without growth, GDP falls, power consumption falls, economies of scale begin to collapse.  Once again, Europe is exploiting third world countries.  As Germany is finding out, they are not assimilating.  They are enjoying the welfare benefits used to lure them there with hopes of them becoming production citizens.  Instead, it is becoming a permanent welfare class which the good people of German have to support, the exact opposite of what was needed.  It is ironic that the good people of Germany will end up working longer to support the immigrants.  The last laugh is with the third world countries. 
Stone-Eater Added Jun 7, 2018 - 10:55am
Leroy
 
The last laugh is with the third world countries. 
 
Sure is. Why ? Because the bombing of WWIII will happen in Europe, Russia, probably the US and maybe in Israel and the ME.
 
Africa and South America will just look up to the sky and say huh ? until, maybe some day, the skin starts to peel off....
Leroy Added Jun 7, 2018 - 12:24pm
My guess, Stoney, is that it will start as a proxy war in a third world country.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 7, 2018 - 1:36pm
Leroy
 
You could be right on that....
Stone-Eater Added Jun 7, 2018 - 1:41pm
....but: what is a third world country ? Take Saudi Wahhabia extremist Arabia. The cities are modern, but 10 miles out you're in the middle of nowhere where not even running water is available. Same in all Arab and Maghreb countries. All these countries live on oil they export. Once that's finished they don't even get a mark on the geopolitical map anymore because they don't dare to build up another industry that leads into the future.
 
They are useful for solar energy though. But that doesn't create much employment...
Stone-Eater Added Jun 7, 2018 - 1:49pm
BTW: Senegal has, on the border with Mauretania (also a religious fascist state based on Sharia, I KNOW), discovered huge gas and oil fields which will start to pay off, means break even with investments in about 2020. I bet that the country will become less peaceful as it is today.
 
For the moment, the French are still dominating politics and the social system as well as the language (as an ancient French colony), but the Chinese and Russians, and the Turks as well are pushing to get into business.
 
0bama fucked it up. Why ? I mean, he was half African, that's more than a bonus, he was a brother to many Africans, I remember. Why did he allow the Chinese and others to take over the continent economically ? Was that a wanted scenario or did the US simply not have anything to offer ?
Leroy Added Jun 7, 2018 - 4:39pm
"0bama fucked it up. Why ? I mean, he was half African, that's more than a bonus, he was a brother to many Africans, I remember. Why did he allow the Chinese and others to take over the continent economically ? Was that a wanted scenario or did the US simply not have anything to offer?"
 
The US (nor the IMF) can't compete with the free, no strings attached, stuff.  Only Africa is starting to figure out that there are strings.  The Chinese want political influence.  All it has to do is keep lining the pockets of the politicians.  Africa is just trading one master for another.  They just don't know it yet.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 7, 2018 - 5:50pm
Well, not to disappoint, Ryan is back to accusing people of drug use.  The California Office of secretary of state have been helpful but I will not "dox" Ryan, just get his statements to his opponent's campaign.   After Trump, people deserve to know what the people they vote for are really like.  Ryan's "rebukes" might be fine on WB, but what "public" deserve to run the risk of "rebukes" read abuse from someone with even minor powers that should not be allowed near.  I'm sure that poor school district can't financislly or morally afford Mr. Dogma.  Scene at the school bosrd meeting with Ryan lording over people, during public comments.  citizen:  I'm a Muslim, and am concerned you demand my child eats pork or just not eat, or only eat what he can bring..." Ryan:  Shut up, Muslim pig.  Name 25 Generals who have bios as "founding fathers" who demanded a state religion during WWII in the African theatre of war....  I'm sure folks will simply love hearing they are child abusers for raising children like me, and how my children are worthless because "my silly wife" allowed us children.  Ryan is big on attacking people not here, like my parents, wife and kids, and he will say "oh, just a rebuke, so it's okay.  Ryan can't fathom passage of time, when it suits his narrative, Marilyn French left WB some months before Trump was elected.  Ryan ran away a year or more ago.
opher goodwin Added Jun 7, 2018 - 6:46pm
Leroy - No culture likes to be usurped by another but that's life. The Britons and Celts were usurped by the Angles and Saxons and Romans. They were usurped by the Normans and Norse.
I'm sure the Native Americans weren't impressed with the genocide that was dispensed, neither were the South American Indians, New Zealand Maoris or Australian Aborigines.
The whites in the USA feel squeezed by the blacks and Hispanics. In fact the numbers of Hispanics is more of a threat to the USA English speaking culture than the Muslims are to British culture. 
There is no racial purity or stability. It has always been change and flux. I say embrace it. It makes for a richer experience. And no - it will not become a shithole.
opher goodwin Added Jun 7, 2018 - 6:48pm
Stone - that is true. It is the power seekers who cause the conflict and blow on the flames. 
But I have read unpleasant tracts in the Koran. It is not benign. It's as bad as the old testament.
opher goodwin Added Jun 7, 2018 - 6:50pm
Leroy - we need to factor in AI. It will alter everything. We won't need a large workforce and we won't be shackled to growth. We need sustainability and a reduction in population.
opher goodwin Added Jun 7, 2018 - 6:51pm
Leroy - there will be a war or two. Maybe Iran? But there are already a whole bunch of proxy wars going on right now.
opher goodwin Added Jun 7, 2018 - 6:54pm
Leroy/Stone - The Chinese aren't working on a short-term profit model like the West does. They don't have elections or public opinion to contend with. They simply decide on a long term aim and take a short-term loss. They funnel the money in, pay the bribes, set up infrastructure and have a foot in the door. It's a type of empire building.
opher goodwin Added Jun 7, 2018 - 6:56pm
Jeff - well the video was enough to show what he is like.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 7, 2018 - 7:51pm
opher: I agree the video helps show what he's like, but nothing better to add to an unflattering image are words that match the pomposity of the visual.  Plus the wider the palette, the more profound the distaste, eh?  Once again, the idea is to limit the damage he'd cause some poor school district and the children in it. 
Leroy Added Jun 7, 2018 - 8:22pm
"Leroy - No culture likes to be usurped by another but that's life. "
 
True. But to do nothing in the face of an invasion is cowardice.
 
"The whites in the USA feel squeezed by the blacks and Hispanics. In fact the numbers of Hispanics is more of a threat to the USA English speaking culture than the Muslims are to British culture."
 
Blacks have assimilated.  Hispanics have shared values. 
 
"And no - it will not become a shithole."
 
Good luck.  I truly mean it.  I am not hopeful.   Hope they don't have to put you back to work to pay for them.  And, I hope your neighborhood is spared.
A. Jones Added Jun 7, 2018 - 9:53pm
I am well aware in the change in Muslims over the last 50 years as a result of illegal wars and bombing of Muslim countries.
 
The change in Muslims toward radical jihad was not a result of "illegal wars and bombing of Muslim countries." That's a lovely bit of propaganda specifically crafted to dupe lefty dopes into accepting moral responsibility for their atrocities.
 
The Wahabi doctrine is despicable but is a small minority.
 
19 Muslim jihadists were a "small minority" on 9/11 yet they managed to murder almost 3,000 Americans in about 2 hours. You're hung up on numbers of people instead of their intentions.
 
To tarnish all Muslims is simply racism.
 
You're virtue signaling again. I guess it's an unconscious habit with the left. I was tarnishing Islam, not Muslims.
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 7, 2018 - 10:54pm
I am going to let a Muslim national leader tell you the facts:  2015 New Year’s day, Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi called for a “religious revolution” in Islam that would displace violent jihad from the center of Muslim discourse. 
 
“Is it possible that 1.6 billion people (Muslims worldwide) should want to kill the rest of the world’s population—that is, 7 billion people—so that they themselves may live?” he asked. “Impossible.”
 
Speaking to an audience of religious scholars celebrating the birth of Islam’s prophet, Mohammed, he called on the religious establishment to lead the fight for moderation in the Muslim world. “You imams (prayer leaders) are responsible before Allah. The entire world—I say it again, the entire world—is waiting for your next move because this umma (a word that can refer either to the Egyptian nation or the entire Muslim world) is being torn, it is being destroyed, it is being lost—and it is being lost by our own hands.” ... 
 
Sisi was a little known general when he was appointed over the heads of fellow officers in 2012 as commander of the Egyptian army by then President Mohammed Morsi of the Muslim Brotherhood. The religiosity of Sisi was said then to have been one of the reasons for the choice. However, when a popular uprising broke out the following year, Sisi swiftly ousted Morsi from power and brought charges against him, including conspiring to commit terrorist acts together with Hamas and other Islamic groups. The Muslim Brotherhood itself was banned.   Ref: The Washington Free Beacon By Abraham Rabinovich January 4, 2015 12:10pm
 
"In the days after September 11, 2001, American leaders rushed to portray Islam as a peaceful religion that had been "hijacked" by a fanatical band of terrorists. ... If the terrorists were so far outside the mainstream, why did Muslims all over the world burst into joyful, spontaneous celebrations when the hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon? Why are Islamic governments afraid to show "too much" public support for the war against terrorism? Further, why are all the governments that covertly support terrorism centered in the Muslim world? ... 
 
That Islam sees itself as a theocracy has enormous ramifications for how it regards itself and for the behavior of Muslims. First, it means that Islam is not only a religion. It is also a political ideology. If the government of the Muslim community simply is God’s government, then no other governments can be legitimate.  ... 
 
Muslims have typically divided the world into two spheres, known
as the Dar al-Islam—the "house of Islam" or "house of submission" to God—and the Dar al-Harb, or "house of war"—those who are at war with God.

Second, it means that Muslims have believed themselves to have a "manifest destiny." Since God must win in the end, the Dar al-Harb must be brought under the control of Muslim government and made part of the Dar al-Islam.

Third, since the Dar al-Harb by its nature is at war with God, it is unlikely that it will submit to God without a fight. Individual groups might be convinced to lay down their arms and join the Muslim
community by various forms of pressure—economic or military— that fall short of war.
 
As eminent French sociologist Jacques Ellul notes, "Jihad is a religious obligation. It forms part of the duties that the believer must fulfill; it is Islam’s normal path to expansion.""
  Ref: http://www.catholic.com/documents/endless-jihad-the-truth-aboutislam-and-violence
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 7, 2018 - 11:07pm
Basically when put to the test a Muslim has a choice,  I am talking about the Muslim that lives next door and you believe has the same love of family and follows the laws.   So let us say their child or a friend of their children is becoming radicalized.  The test is to turn them in to the authorities or not.  Since Jihad is a religious obligation then to interfere with another Muslim's application of Jihad is failing at their duty.   Statistically nothing is said.
 
Lebanon is an example when a Muslim has a choice of a nation that lives in peace or to support the call for changing the government to follow sharia law.  When violence broke out the obvious choice of Muslims was to meet their obligation, Jihad.  Take up arms and work to achieve "manifest destiny," since God must win in the end.  
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 7, 2018 - 11:08pm
Thomas,
re:As eminent French sociologist Jacques Ellul notes, "Jihad is a religious obligation. It forms part of the duties that the believer must fulfill;"
 
As you well know, his "eminence" has nothing to do with truth of his assertions.
 
But he is correct that "Jihad is a religious obligation.", where
Jihad essentially means "personal improvement"  
 
Confusing 
the lesser Jihad of fighting with the major Jihad of personal improvement is common.
 
You can cherry pick like this with the Christians too, if you like.
 
Mustafa
 
 
MEFOBILLS Added Jun 7, 2018 - 11:57pm
Here is a logic fallacy from Jeffrey:
 
The reality is with declining birthrates in the western world we need these newcomers.  Their children will fill positions vacated by the aging population.
 
After the black plague decimated Europe did it import millions to fill positions vacated by the dead?
 
After the Spanish flue decimated Europe did it import millions?
 
After WW2 decimated the male population did it import millions?
 
The reality is that populations can bounce back in the same way they decline.  It is simply a matter of getting busy making children.
 
It is debt based economics and its adherents who are promulgating the hypnotism that third world people's need to be immigrated for population replacement.  
 
These "oligarchs" want their BONDS paid for.  They want to live off the fat of the land, and are afraid their "paper financial assets" will become non-performing.
 
The oligarchial class doesn't give a damn about social cohesion, or the idea of a nation state where people groups can feel safe.  They are "international" in outlook and own the press - to then pass hypnosis like what Jeffrey is regurgitating.
MEFOBILLS Added Jun 8, 2018 - 12:01am
Mass Migration should be accepted, UN General:
 
Mass migration population replacement
 
UN member states should prepare for great migratory movements, said UN Secretary General António Guterres on 11th of January 2018 during the presentation of the report on the management of migration processes. And this is not a joke: The UN, led by António Guterres, wants to manage and influence migration. All this, of course, is dressed up in pretty words about the need to provide humanitarian aid, and also justified by the benefits that resettlement of the population is to give to the economies of particular countries. However, in fact, this means only one thing: Europe and the entire Western World must prepare for the flood of Africans.
Currently, nearly 1,3 billion people live in Africa, and by the end of this century, there will be 350% more, or 4,4 billion.1) It is obvious that the continent, whose inhabitants are not able to feed themselves, let alone achieve an adequate level of urbanization and industrialization, cannot cope with such a sharp demographic increase. The UN, therefore, came up with the idea of resettling Africans to Europe and highly developed countries on other continents.
At the end of 2016, just after his election as UN Secretary-General, António Guterres said: “We must convince Europeans that migration is inevitable and that multiethnic and multireligious societies create wealth”.2) It can be assumed here that the goal set by the former UN commissioner for refugees (A. Gutters served this function from June to December 2015), is to promote migration, give it a legal framework and manage it globally.
The first major step towards formalization of this phenomenon was the creation of the “Making Migration Work for All” report, which says in no uncertain terms that nation-states are to cease to exist. The document says that migration would be beneficial to everyone. And it is beneficial… to migrants alone (who apart from being accommodated in apartments live on undeserved entitlements) rather than to the average European who has to work to make a living for himself and his family, pay for his home and, additionally, provide for millions more newcomers.
MEFOBILLS Added Jun 8, 2018 - 12:12am
More hypnosis:
 The reality is immigrants adjust to the society they move to.  The first generation sticks out but their children don’t because they learn the language, they intermarry with the locals and adopt their customs.  They also have less children because they don’t need to.
 
 
If you limited immigration to only women, then they would marry out and norm to the social behaviors of their husband.
 
If you immigrate whole family groups, and do so in large numbers, they then create ethnic enclaves.   This is self evident to anybody who is intellectually aware.
 
These ethnic enclaves, especially if they are populated by people who are hostile to the native culture, will then work to change it to make it more "amenable" to the newcomers way of life.
 
Large numbers and "families" are the key statement here.
 
Our Jewish friends are an exception as well, as they are an evolutionary construct that has survived as a minority within host cultures.   It is well known that our "friends" work diligently to change host cultures to make it amenable to Jewish interests.  
 
There is also simple math:
The deception at the heart of "immigrationists" is exploded by this youtube video "gumballs."
 
immigration and gumballs
 
MEFOBILLS Added Jun 8, 2018 - 1:54am
The solution is to stop bombing and raping resource countries like those of the middle east.  That then created an immigrant crises, so the West is complicit.
 
With regards to Africa, the solution is to help them where they are planted.  See immigration and gumballs.   There is no other solution.... help them where they are planted.
 
China's belt and road initiative, along with the New Italian government are looking at Africa for development, so the coming 4B African's will not turn into a negro-apocalypse. 
 
This is a positive development... the immigrationists are basically crazy and self centered, thinking they are god and are willing to overturn centuries of history.   Would the world be better without an Italy in it?  I think not.
 
The West should join China and Russia and the Belt/Road initiative as it will spread wealth to the resource countries on the trade routes.  
 
We can move goods and services among the nation states, but we don't need to move populations.  
 
Finance Capitalism want to take usury on people, and to export jobs to take wage arbitrage, and also import third world labor to take arbitrage on their life energy.
 
London is an advanced warning of what finance capitalism has in store for the future of humanity.   This model simply does not work.
Flying Junior Added Jun 8, 2018 - 5:28am
opher goodwin Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:09am
Leroy - Over the last weeks I've travelled from one side of the country to the other and halfway up the country and never a burqa in sight.
The problem, and there is a problem with radical Islam, is greatly overstated.
opher goodwin Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:11am
A Jones - the problem with Islam is the same as with Christianity and Judaism - it's fundamentalism.
That is what needs dealing with. To make out that all Muslims are to blame is racism.
opher goodwin Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:17am
Thomas - I believe the wars in the Middle East have radicalised Muslims. My Muslim friends used to be secular. They never went to the mosque. Now they do. It has made them more extreme because they feel under attack.
We need the extreme doctrines to be driven out and the moderate doctrine to be adopted. There is a war. The vast majority of Muslims are moderate.
opher goodwin Added Jun 8, 2018 - 7:38am
Thomas - the first part of your post seems at odds to the second part.
What are you trying to say? The first part demonstrates that moderate Muslims are sick of radicalisation.
opher goodwin Added Jun 8, 2018 - 7:39am
Mustafa - thanks for that clarification.
opher goodwin Added Jun 8, 2018 - 7:41am
Mefo - the very last thing we want is to encourage people to have more babies! That creates poverty and environmental destruction. The world is heavily overpopulated and it is decimating nature. We need to reduce population. Isn't that obvious?
opher goodwin Added Jun 8, 2018 - 7:45am
Mefo - I would agree that we do not want mass movements of people. The answer is to stop the wars and look more globally at how work and wealth is distributed. If we solved poverty, stopped blowing people up and did not create climate change we wouldn't need mass migration would we?
Rusty Smith Added Jun 8, 2018 - 8:51am
I can't possibly count the number of times Muslims have made heroes of the members of their own community who have publicly burned our American Flags, and never, not even once have I heard anyone say that they thought their inflammatory actions would result in violent American uprisings. I wouldn't dream of burning a Koran and I know most Americans wouldn't either but if we did I know the Muslim community would respond with violence.
 
Could you even imagine what would happen if the next time Muslims burnt an American flag on TV in public, Mr. Obama went on TV and said he was sure that extreme act of disrespect would result in violence against Muslims, and that he not only expected it but believed the Muslim community was earning that response?
 
The fact that we ACCEPT AND UNDERSTAND THE FACT THAT some Muslims practically go postal over incidents like that says far more about what "great" people they tolerate amongst themselves, than I could ever say myself.
Rusty Smith Added Jun 8, 2018 - 8:53am
I have one neighbor that I can’t stand.  Actually it’s not the family I hate, it’s their dog because almost every day they let it out and it uses part of my yard for a toilet and the dead grass is always an eyesore.  Since they can’t or don’t care to control their dog, I can’t stand them, even though I know that in most other ways they are good people. 
 
Now I know they’re not really bad people, they just don’t exercise control over their dog, and certainly the kids can’t be blamed; but because of this little thing that I hate, I’d be glad to use any excuse I could to help my neighborhood evict them if I could.
 
I know that most Muslims are good people but a whole lot of Americans are beginning to think we’d be much better off if none of them were here, and I’m beginning to think they may be right because they bring with them so many troublemakers.
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 8, 2018 - 9:01am
opher G. and Mustafa yes I am cherry picking but then no one wants nor can WB deal with a book.  I will not present the sources here because I previously did on this thread.  I am pointing out fundamental features of Islam.  I am not pointing out historic events.  A fundamental belief of Christianity is that man are sinners.  Your historical events that you cherry pick are the actions of sinners and not the principles of Christianity.  Church and state maybe tightly tied together but they are still separate.  Matthew 22:21, in which Christ is quoted as saying: ‘Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.’
 
The quote from Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi is very clear.  Radicalism is inherent in Islam. 
 
The second quote from the Roman Catholic Church that have been facing Islam since 720.  Jacques Ellul notes, "Jihad is a religious obligation. It forms part of the duties that the believer must fulfill; it is Islam’s normal path to expansion."  Cherry picking Mustafa but on fundamentals.
 
The a mild manner Muslim is commanded to foster Islam.  Now you would say evangelizing, fostering Christianity is a command.  But their is a big difference.  "Not only did Muhammad teach that Muslims are to murder those who have left Islam, "wherever you find them", he further taught that a Muslim who commits this type of murder will be doing God's service and be rewarded! 
 
Please find a similar statement in the Bible or before Rome made Christianity a state religion.  Also exclude the Old Testament before Jews switch in 550 BC from judgement theology to salvation theology, when they came to believe that God expelled them from the promise land because man can not stop himself from sinning.     
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 8, 2018 - 9:16am
Opher and Mustafa, Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi is basically saying that Islam is in the position that the leaders of the Jewish religion were at in 550 BC.  The leads if Islam need to move Islam away from Judgmental theology.  Must say that man is incapable of following God's Laws.  What is happening is that man's laws are being applied in the name of God.   Humans is not capable of achieving its "manifest destiny."  It is true that God must win in the end.  But man being sinners are incapable of being in control.   Man is not driven to turn the planet into God's.  Only God will or can do this.
opher goodwin Added Jun 8, 2018 - 10:22am
Thomas - I don't agree with your analysis. He is saying that Islam needs to move to a moderate position and not involve itself in radical fundamentalism.
I agree with him.
Ian Thorpe Added Jun 8, 2018 - 11:14am
A Hindu friend of mine, commenting on some left wing wanker in parliament parroting on about how we must help Muslims to integrate, told me a while ago, "They will never integrate, they've been in India for a thousand years and have not integrated."

A couple of years ago Trevor Phillips, former head of the equalities commission and a long time campaigner for racial equality was saying the same thing. Here's a link to the report in The Independent
opher goodwin Added Jun 8, 2018 - 11:46am
Ian - that is simply not true for the majority of Muslims. Most of the Muslims I know are integrated and have become secular. I think we have to work hard to ensure they do integrate. Moderate Muslims are happy to integrate.
It was totally different in India where there was approximately equal numbers between Hindu and Muslim and a great deal of hostility.
We have had situations where different groups have lived in harmony.
What we need to focus on is eradicating the obnoxious extreme fundamentalist doctrine.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Jun 8, 2018 - 2:05pm
Why don't we quote the Koran and see if it discriminates against non-believers and the penalties involved for the disbelief. Is that fair??
Stone-Eater Added Jun 8, 2018 - 5:36pm
MEFO
 
The reality is that populations can bounce back in the same way they decline.  It is simply a matter of getting busy making children.
 
Sure. Nice dream. Do you know what it costs to have children in Europe when less and less jobs are available ? Before, the men worked and the women stayed at home for the kids. Now, the PC cries for equality made the women enter the work market as well. Means 1.5 times more people wanting to work for the same job availability. And the neoliberal economy prefers to import workers who are ready to work for half the price. Why ? Because they know that earning 8 € per hour doesn't allow them a good life in Europe but they will be able to build a house back home. Where do you live ?
MEFOBILLS Added Jun 8, 2018 - 8:01pm
Sure. Nice dream
 
Money's true nature is law.   That is where the problem lies. 
There is already a ground movement in the U.S. for state banks.  
 
So, it is a practical dream that is gaining traction.  
 
Think closely on this:  Two income families are now required even though productivity has gone UP.  In the past when there was less machine productivity i.e. fewer robots and labor saving devices in manufacturing, people could live on one income.  
 
False economy due to thefts through prices are causing the malfunction.  
 
The gap between what is distributed in wages as compared to what is produced is $7500 per person in the U.S.  
 
Labor cannot buy what it produces due to false economy, so they go into personal debts, and then they don't have children.
 
S.E., I'm more than conversant with "reality" in case you haven't noticed.  
opher goodwin Added Jun 9, 2018 - 4:25am
rycK - you can quote the Old Testament if you like as well - see if it tells people to smash babies brains out on rocks.
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 9, 2018 - 8:17am
opher,  Islam has no official doctrine that is moderate.  So to be a moderate Muslim you have to reject much of the doctrine.  Islam not flexible because of judgmental theology.  God is the judge and the laws of God are absolute, not flexible and not moderate,  The planet is the promise land of Islam.
John Minehan Added Jun 9, 2018 - 10:49am
To all Muslims, let me say (a few days prematurely) Eid Mubarak!
John Minehan Added Jun 9, 2018 - 11:08am
Let me ask a question, since I'm not admitted before the British (or, since they are a bit different, the Scots') Courts. 
 
In the US, you can't really prohibit the use of Sharia Courts as an arbitral forum or to deal with purely religious questions.  In NYS, Beth Dins can adjudicate disputes between observant parties or issue a Get at the same time as parties terminate a marriage civilly.  Catholic Diocesan Chancery Courts can grant annulments.
 
It would be Establishment under the Bill of Rights to the US Constitution to allow Catholics and Jews to do something Muslims can't absent more.
 
Is there already quasi-recognition of religious fora under British Law?     
opher goodwin Added Jun 10, 2018 - 5:26am
Thomas - that isn't true. There are lots of moderate views in the Koran. It's Wahabism that is extreme.
Besides most people do not follow religion to the letter. They pick and choose. Most people are very secularised - including Muslims.
opher goodwin Added Jun 10, 2018 - 5:28am
John - I'm not an expert on law I'm afraid. But I do know that we allow a degree of Sharia law in minor things but British law supersedes it.
A. Jones Added Jun 11, 2018 - 6:38pm
A Jones - the problem with Islam is the same as with Christianity and Judaism - it's fundamentalism.
 
It's obviously not the same, since we don't read about fundamentalist Christians or Jews high-jacking aircraft and plowing them into skyscrapers, or teaching their children to strap bomb-vests to themselves in the hopes of martyring themselves by blowing up sundry infidels. Thus, clearly there's a big difference among the fundamentalists of each religion.
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 11, 2018 - 8:55pm
opher you keep trying to point to Wahhabism.  "Wahhabism, the most extreme, separatist, and violent form of Islam, and the official sect in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, have come to dominate Islam in the U.S.." U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Homeland Security Thursday, June 26, 2003 Testimony by Stephen Schwartz http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/congress/2003_h/030626-schwartz.htm 
 
But opher I presented the basic principles of Islam and it applies to about 99% of the sects.  The few that do not follow the example of Mohammad are excommunicated by many sects.  The will receive the punishment for Muslims that have left the faith.  
opher goodwin Added Jun 12, 2018 - 3:52am
A. Jones - but we do read about Christians flying drones around in the sky and raining missiles down on Muslim cities. We do read about Jews shooting dead 68 demonstrators. We do read about mobs of Hindus with machetes rampaging around chopping people up.
No difference - just tactics.
opher goodwin Added Jun 12, 2018 - 3:53am
Thomas - that simply is not true. Most Muslims lead peaceful existences without extremism.
MEFOBILLS Added Jun 12, 2018 - 12:25pm
Opher:
rycK - you can quote the Old Testament if you like as well - see if it tells people to smash babies brains out on rocks.
 
The Doctrine of supercession makes Dueteronomy and Psychopathy in Old Testament "superceded."  It is gone, not to be observed, put to bed, thrown away.  Anybody who adheres to Old Testament mode is not following Christ and hence not a Christian.  
 
From Thomas
opher,  Islam has no official doctrine that is moderate.  So to be a moderate Muslim you have to reject much of the doctrine.  Islam not flexible because of judgmental theology.  God is the judge and the laws of God are absolute, not flexible and not moderate,  The planet is the promise land of Islam
 
This is true, it is not moderate because of Abrogation.  Psychopathy in religion is a problem especially with Islam because Abrogation UPHOLDS the later verses, which enjoin adherents to Kill or use Deception.  In other words, a psycho Imam is well within rights to use psycho passages (like verse of the Swords) to deceive and do violence on Kafirs.
 
There are those adherents to Islam that need to be engaged to reform their religion.  Remember, about 3% of the population are psychopaths, and they are attracted to power.  They don't feel emotion and empathy and basically are not human.  
 
Bahai is a branch of Islam that has purged most of its psychopathy.  Suffi's wouldn't harm a fly.  Shia have found a way to moderate Islam.
 
Opher says this:
Thomas - that simply is not true. Most Muslims lead peaceful existences without extremism.
 
This is true.  They have human feeling.  Humanity has a psychopath problem.  They walk among us, and there ARE psycho's from Islam that use the worst of it, and abrogation even upholds their bad behavior.   Islam can be attacked for its psychopathic elements, and indeed needs to be attacked so it can reform, and its more moderate adherents have breathing space.
 
I've cornered Imam's in debates and left them no escape.  They are usually so vested that they cannot adjust.  Some of them are pretty bad.
 
Abrogation cannot be avoided.  But, the deeper problem is psychopathy, and that is the tactic we should take.
 
Earlier I talked about psychopathy in Judaism.  I noticed nobody took it up.  It is equally bad to the elements in Islam.  
 
Why?  Are you afraid of Jews?  It is what it is.  The doctrine of Kol-Niedre is even more sneaky and underhanded than Islam's deception techniques.
 
 
 
 
 
 
A. Jones Added Jun 12, 2018 - 6:45pm
but we do read about Christians flying drones around in the sky and raining missiles down on Muslim cities.
 
Um, when and where?
 
We do read about Jews shooting dead 68 demonstrators.
 
Um, when and where?
 
We do read about mobs of Hindus with machetes rampaging around chopping people up.
 
Um, when and where?
 
No difference - just tactics.
 
Huge difference. You're just in denial to protect your beliefs. SOP for lefties.
A. Jones Added Jun 12, 2018 - 6:47pm
superceded
 
superseded
 
"s" after "super-", not "c".
opher goodwin Added Jun 13, 2018 - 6:23am
Drones use - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Pakistan. I would have thought you'd know that.
Israeli shooting of Palestinian protestors just a week or so ago. 68 shot dead.
Hindus in India - here's one incident - there have been lots - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ilj2nS9Woro
opher goodwin Added Jun 14, 2018 - 9:16am
Mefo - you think the Old Testament is not taught in the church? Maybe you should tell that to the fundamentalists and their attitude to homosexuality and abortion.
opher goodwin Added Jun 14, 2018 - 9:17am
Mefo - I do agree - Islam badly needs an enlightenment.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Jun 14, 2018 - 11:39am
Opher, apostle Paul also abhorred homosexuality. So did Fidel Castro.
opher goodwin Added Jun 14, 2018 - 2:52pm
Yes Ben - many people are intolerant, prejudiced and backward. I look towards a better world based on liberty and tolerance, compassion and understanding.
A. Jones Added Jun 14, 2018 - 7:31pm
Drones use - Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Pakistan. I would have thought you'd know that.
 
The intention of drone strikes is to kill terrorists (collateral damage of innocents is obviously unintentional); the intention of Islamic terror strikes in the U.S., UK, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc., is to kill innocents for the sole purpose of sowing terror.
 
That's a big difference which anyone with a properly oriented moral compass can appreciate.
 
Israeli shooting of Palestinian protestors just a week or so ago. 68 shot dead.
 
Protesters along the Gaza Strip were violent so Israeli soldiers shot back. Completely different from terrorists initiating violent attacks against innocents for the sole purpose of sowing terror.
 
I'm not surprised you cannot distinguish between those two scenarios.
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 14, 2018 - 7:55pm
OPher, this a statement that could be said in Lebanon and Iraq before the civil war and war that turned into s secular war, "that simply is not true. Most Muslims lead peaceful existences without extremism."  You missed the whole point.  Islam demands with failure defined as leaving Islam that ALL MUSLIMS DEFINED THE FAITH BY TAKING UP ARMS IF THAT IS THE CALL.  So peaceful Muslims chose to take up arms.  Not so peaceful.  And Islam defines those they apply force against or those that do not take up arms as 'LESS THEN HUMAN'  CAN BE KILLED WITHOUT HARMING THEIR SOUL. 
opher goodwin Added Jun 15, 2018 - 4:17am
A. Jones - I watched the missiles rain in on Baghdad and I watch the casualty rate of civilians build up from drone strikes. I think if I lived in those regions I would not quite see it the way you do. I'm not sure those in command really care about civilians. The intentional killing of civilians by terrorists is unforgiveable but so is the devastation caused by US war. Who kills most?
If we had a bunch of irate Americans throwing stones at police in Washington I'm sure you'd condone them shooting 68 dead.
opher goodwin Added Jun 15, 2018 - 4:19am
Thomas - I'm sure you are right. Islam is a horrible religion (but then they all are). But most Muslims want to lead a peaceful moderate life and get on with other people. We need to root out the radical extremists who stir it up.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 25, 2018 - 9:32pm
opher: Most of these folks aren't going to agree on anything unless you openly and totally condemn Islam and demand death for all and every Muslim because they aren't human...remember it's essential to WB rightists to ensure dehumanization takes place.  If they were human, other views might be required.  Sheeesh.
opher goodwin Added Jun 27, 2018 - 8:49am
Jeff - you are right. Dehumanisation is the first stage in fascism.