If Islam is the religion of peace, why are so many Muslims so violent?

I repeatedly hear Muslims in the US claim Islam is the religion of peace, but fail to see them proving they are by being as or more peaceful people than people of other cultures.  When I hear that I often wonder who they are comparing themselves to, the Vikings?

 

From what I can see Middle Eastern Muslims have had a history of violence and intolerance even among themselves that continues even today.  Muslim sects have been massacuring each other over trivial differences in their own perception of what a good Muslim is for ages and even today Sunni and Shia Muslims are murdering each other as fast as they can.  Oh and it doesn't stop there, they don't play well with any other religions, and have killed or driven out practically everyone who is not Muslim from many Muslim dominated countries.  Their record of violence against homesexuals, Christians, Jews, anyone who disresprects their religion, and even their own women who misbehave according to Sharia Law is ongoing even today.

 

I also hear people say the ones that immigrate to the US are not that way, they are the tolerant ones, the real followers of true Islam but in the US they don't prove that's true.  As a group they are very accepting of others in their midst who support and perpetuate acts that I consider terrorism.  Radical elements in their communities and mosques have even radicalized many American converts, who then committed violent acts against other Americans, in the name of Islam.  Here again, who are they comparing themselves too, I know of NO other religious groups that regularly seem to inspire violent terrorism against Americans as often as Islam.  The term "suicide bomber" is practically unheard of being associated with any other religion.

 

Muslim advocates like CARE constantly make it sound like Muslims are constantly being terrorized in the US, but there too the numbers don't seem to support their claims.  There are about as many Muslims in the US as Jews and many times more anti Semitic crimes reported than crimes against Muslims.  No hate crimes are good but CARE's prmis that suggests Muslims are uniquely under attack is quite exaggerated.  Even CARE themselves has been associated with providing support for terrorism, and that resulted in a severance of ties between them and several US administrations including Obama's.

 

I know there are lots of peaceful Muslims, but the overall religion can't claim to be the religion of peace as long as the greater body of Muslims continue their current track record.    If Muslims want us to believe Islam is all about peace they need more than a montra, they need to start acting that way.

Comments

Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 8, 2018 - 10:48am
Rusty Smith,
re:" repeatedly hear Muslims in the US claim Islam is the religion of peace, but fail to see them proving they are by being as or more peaceful people than people of other cultures. "
 
IMO, those using this language are either being manipulative or ignorant.
 
The peace "salam" that they are referring to is the peace one obtains when one surrenders to God. 
 
One can make similar remarks about the Religion of Love.
 
Mustafa
 
 
Dino Manalis Added Jun 8, 2018 - 11:36am
 All religions correctly preach peace, but some pervert their religion for secular desires and domination.  We must condemn extremists of all kinds!
Doug Plumb Added Jun 8, 2018 - 11:41am
re "The peace "salam" that they are referring to is the peace one obtains when one surrenders to God. "
 
How does one do this in Islam Mustafa.
 
In Christianity, it means to surrender to rationalism and don't be superstitious.
opher goodwin Added Jun 8, 2018 - 11:47am
Pretty much the same as Protestants and Catholics then?
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 11:51am
^^^^ Opinion is uninformed but stubbornly refuses to do anything about it.
 
Islam is the religion of pieces. Until everyone who opposes Islam is in pieces, there will be no peace.
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 8, 2018 - 12:12pm
The Roman Catholic Church knows their enemy well, or they should after 1300 years of conflict, almost continuous war:  
 
"That Islam sees itself as a theocracy has enormous ramifications for how it regards itself and for the behavior of Muslims.  

First, it means that Islam is not only a religion. It is also a political ideology. If the government of the Muslim community simply is God’s government, then no other governments can be legitimate.
 
Sociologist Jacques Ellul notes, "Jihad is a religious obligation. It forms part of the duties that the believer must fulfill; it is Islam’s normal path to expansion."
 
Islam in Arabic means "SUBMISSION." Islam has never been a religion of peace from the prophet Mohammad conquered the Arabian Peninsula. In the century after Islam religious government,
Caliphate conquered the Northern Mediterranean coast into Spain and into India. Islam became the dominant religion in the area by applying the tactics that have been repeated by ISIS today. The Quran says, “Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way, God is forgiving and Merciful.” (Surah 9:5)
 
First from 1894 to 1896 and then from 1915 to 1920 the Ottoman Empire the last to day Islamic empire Caliphate (God's Government) deported and murdered 1.5M Christian Armenians. A genocide topped by Hitler with the help of Islamic followers assistance in the Middle East."
 
http://www.catholic.com/documents/endless-jihad-the-truth-aboutislam-
and-violence
Dave Volek Added Jun 8, 2018 - 1:02pm
Relatively speaking, Islam was the religion of peace for many centuries. Things went downhill after 1700 (in my sense of history).
 
 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 1:04pm
False, Dave.  Muhammad murdered and commanded murder, and was a pedophile.
opher goodwin Added Jun 8, 2018 - 1:28pm
The very tolerant and civilised Messano speaks out! The way forward - more war!!!
Rusty Smith Added Jun 8, 2018 - 2:06pm
I could be wrong but the peace I keep hearing about is from people who want me to believe that Muslim immigrants aren't any more likely bring violence with them than any other immigrant group or existing American citizens.  
 
The idea that Islam teaches violence was not what I had in mind when I authored the forum. 
 
I don't care what it is about Muslim culture that tends to generate so much violence, I was just acknowledging the fact that when I compare their behavior to other groups, they sure appear to be much more violently inclined. 
 
Lots of people don't practice their religions in ways that fully comply with their sacred texts, and I don't fault them for believing a version of their religion that is tempered by what they believe are more modern and acceptable values.  Not all Jews observe the Sabbath, there practicing Catholics who use birth control and get abortions, and I hope lots of Muslims who don't feel compelled to kill non believers, just because their Koran seems to sanction that behavior.  
 
I don't believe Muslims are destined to be violent because of their religion, it's more a cultural thing to me, they are comfortable with violent responses to things most other people shrug off.  Where we are shocked when we see violent responses, they are not.  Where we'd be appalled by violent reactions, and actions in response to the bad actions of others, they see them as people who deserve respect.
 
If someone insulted my religion and hung Jesus in effigy I'd not be pleased, but if I learned someone I knew got so upset they chopped their head off for offending God, I'd be horrified.  I get the feeling most Muslims would not be horrified if they were in my place. 
Gerrilea Added Jun 8, 2018 - 5:19pm
Rusty S-- The question is how you define the term, "peace".
 
Study after study shows that currently in the world, the MAJORITY of Muslims accept and support violence.
 
Anyone claiming otherwise is a lamb being led to the slaughter. If you read any of the books by Tommy Robinson, you'll know that lying to obtain world dominance is in the Quran and they follow it.
 
 
Dave Volek Added Jun 8, 2018 - 5:31pm
"Study after study" written by people who hate Muslims is not worth very much.
 
I live in a town that is about 10% Muslim. I would be dead by now if violence were their lifestyle.
 
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:08pm
Rusty Smith,
re:"
If Islam is the religion of peace, why are so many Muslims so violent?"
Lets turn this around abit.
 
Lets begin with an error and say that
the US is a Christian nation, something I hear many people say is the case and/or should be the case.  Then onr could say
 
"If Christianity is the religion of love, why have Christians destroyed so much of the ME?"
 
Most people living in Kansas have not had the US dropping bombs on them and the CIA fomenting unrest and bringing about regime change.  And since the areas that have been/continue to be destroyed and destabilised in the ME are primarily Musliim, I suspect that this can generate a great amount of anger.  Moreover, the devastation in these areas doesnt exactly foster a good work/business invironment, so you have alot of unemployed young males. I suppose if you were an 18  year old male Palestinian living in Gaza you wouldnt have to ask this question.
 
Mustafa
 
 
Joe Chiang Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:10pm
Dave, when Muslims are over 50%, then you will see an entirely different religious expression.
 
Here is a series of questions to ask devote Muslims.  1.  What does Mohammad say about Christ?  Answer:  Mohammad says Christ is a prophet (in the Koran).  2.  What does Islam say about paying attention to what prophets say?  Answer:  Prophets are to be listened to and pay attention to what they say (I don't recall if this is in the Koran or just a teaching).  3.  Why did Mohammad say about Christ's words?  Answer:  Followers should pay attention to all prophets, especially Mohammad.  4.  What were Christ's words?  Answer:  "No man can come to the Father except through Him."  5.  Conclusion:  Mohammad is a liar and Christ is NOT a prophet or Muslims should pay attention to what Christ says and become Christians.  
 
LOL
Stone-Eater Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:18pm
Hm. Question: WHO of you guys have ever lived in a Muslim country ?
 
The ones who have may speak. The other ones may just shut up. Why ? Because they don't KNOW. They've READ papers or WATCHED TV. Is that a qualification ? No.
Gerrilea Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:37pm
Mustafa K-- Deflection, mostly.  Yes the US and NATO have destroyed many parts of the Middle East.  Turkey & Pakistan are doing just fine, so is Saudi Arabia and Qatar and Iran (for now).
 
Who funds Sharia & Hezboliah? What do they teach?
 
Here's another study done by PEW Research.  Clearly the majority of Muslims accept and desire Sharia as the law of the land above and beyond Democracy.
 
What will they do to attain said?
 
 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:40pm
Dave, Stone, and Mustafa are malicious, malevolent, uninformed, corrupt, and vicious. 
 
There are five stages of Islam
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:40pm
Joe,
re:"What were Christ's words?  Answer:  "No man can come to the Father except through Him."
 
re:"  Prophets are to be listened to and pay attention to what they say"
 
Indeed,  I heard this alot. Isa is a prophet in Islam.
 
then you  get here
 
  5.  Conclusion:  Mohammad is a liar and Christ is NOT a prophet or Muslims should pay attention to what Christ says and become Christians.  "
 
I think they said "listen". Alot of us could use the practice.
 
Mustafa
 
Rusty Smith Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:43pm
Mustafa Kemaleven after Gandhi freed India from European rule different Muslim sects inside India slaughtered each other over which flavor of Islam.  Over and over and over even today Sunni and Shias murder as many of each other as they can, over what?
 
I compare how Muslims seem to butcher each other these days to how other cultures I know about similarly butcher each other, and still come to the conclusion Muslims make much more dangerous neighbors than most other cultures.
 
I'm not sure if your reasoning about why they are so violent really makes a difference in context with this forum and I don't agree that being brutalized is a good excuse if it does.  Lot of other people come from brutalized places, including millions of Asians who fled to the US after brutal wars, and none as a cultural group have the violent reputation that the very tiny group of Muslim immigrants who are in the US have associated with them.
 
It still appears to me that where Muslims go violence follows close behind.  
Rusty Smith Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:53pm
Mustafa Kemal let me be the first to admit I've never lived in a Muslim Country, and ask you why I'd need to in order to draw the conclusion I state in my forum topic?  Please enlighten me.
 
Despite the news media bias I don't think the media has suppressed incidents of terrorism that are not inspired by the Muslim faith so much that I'm greatly misled about how often they are inspired by Islam.  I do think terrorism in the US is more frequently associated with people who think they are justified by Islam, than is perpetuated by all the other people in the US who have nothing to do with Islam.  I don't care if you or others don't think those who go postal are true Muslims or not, if they are inspired by Islam that's good enough for me.
 
Do tell me why you think Sunnis and Shias are murdering each other today, if it's not because their Muslim culture is much more violent than that of contemporary Christians, Jews, and  Buddhists, whose carnage against each other pales by comparison. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 8, 2018 - 8:17pm
So let me answer your question Dave V why the 10% Muslims in your area haven't murdered you in your sleep!
 
"Dr. Peter Hammond published a remarkable book which included a statistical study of the correlation between Muslim to non-Muslim
population ratios and the transition from conciliatory Islam to fascist Islam.  
Stage 1. Establish a Beachhead
Population density à 2% (US, Australia, Canada).
Muslims are conciliatory, deferential but request harmless special treatment (foot bath facilities, removal/elimination of that which is offensive to delicate Muslim sensibilities - like walking dogs near Mosques).

Stage 2. Establish Outposts
Population density 2% - 5% (UK, Germany, Denmark).
At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. A recent example is that of Sheikh Abdullah el-Faisal who is back in Jamaica after being kicked out of the UK. Sound harmless?
 
Stage 3. Establish Sectional Control of Major Cities.
Population density 5% - 10% (France, Sweden, Netherlands).
First comes the demand for halal food in supermarkets, and the blocking of streets for prayers; then comes the demand for self rule (within their ghettos) under Sharia.
 
When Muslims approach 10% of the population the demands turn to lawlessness. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings.  Any criticism of Islam results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam. In France which may be over the 10% range, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrassas. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death.

Stage 4. Establish Regional Control.
Population density 20% - 50% (Europe 2020?).
After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues.

Stage 5. Total Control, Brutal Suppression, and Dhimmitude.
Population density > 50%.
Unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and jizya, the tax placed on infidels. As Muslim population levels increase and all infidels cower in submission there will peace at last. Dar al-Islam is achieved and everyone lives under Sharia and the Koran is the only word." 
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2011/05/the_five_stages_of_islam
 
Lebanon is another example of stage 5.  

"Cairo agreement of 1969, granting Palestinian militants the right to keep weapons in their camps and attack Israel in the south, provided they respect Lebanese law and sovereignty. In 1970, the PLO was expelled from Jordan after failing to topple King Hussein and established their main base in Lebanon. This changed everything. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians entered the country, and the PLO, with about 23,000 troops, was now larger than the Lebanese army. Arafat grew bolder and began to misbehave, flouting Lebanese laws, setting up roadblocks and engaging in extortion, and harassing local populations. ... The creation of Greater Lebanon (1920) would contribute to their fall 70 years later, with the addition of those Muslim populated areas (
Christian population in Lebanon dropped from 85 per cent to 54 per cent). ... National Pact set a new political system for Lebanon. It resolved to preserve the position of the presidency for the Maronites, the premiership for the Sunnis, and the parliament speakership for the Shiites. Moreover, the Pact agreed to distribute parliamentary seats, cabinet posts, and administrative and army positions at all levels on a sectarian basis. Sami Ofeish said that the National Pact favoured Christians and in particular the Maronite elite.  The 1943 Pact cemented the Christian political power, which was given to them in the 1920s by the French Mandate. It enabled Christians to rule Muslims for the next 32 years until it started to crack in 1975. ... The biggest fear Christians have had is how to survive in such a Muslim dominated region. This has prompted them to deny Muslims the opportunity to turn Lebanon into an Arabic and Muslim nation. This was done by spreading their notion of nationalism, which they associated with L
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 8, 2018 - 8:22pm

This was done by spreading their notion of nationalism, which they associated with Lebanese sovereignty away from Arabic and Islamic influences.  
http://reasons-and-opinions.blogspot.com/2006/08/lebanese-civil-war-for-dummies_25.html
 
From an earlier string entry above: First from 1894 to 1896 and then from 1915 to 1920 the Ottoman Empire the last to day Islamic empire Caliphate (God's Government) deported and murdered 1.5M Christian Armenians.  This is why Christian have something to worry about.
 
 

The Christian population majority is believed to have ended in the early 1960s, but government leaders would agree to no change in the political power balance. This led to Muslim demands of increased representation, and the constant sectarian tension slid into violent conflict in 1958 (prompting U.S. intervention) and again in the grueling Lebanese Civil War, in 1975–90.  The Lebanese Civil War pitted a coalition of Christian groups against the joint forces of the PLO, left-wing Druze and Muslim militias.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon
 
 
 
 
 
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 8, 2018 - 8:51pm
Rusty Smith,
re:"let me be the first to admit I've never lived in a Muslim Country, and ask you why I'd need to in order to draw the conclusion I state in my forum topic?  Please enlighten me."
 
You dont. I never said such a thing
 
re:"Do tell me why you think Sunnis and Shias are murdering each other today, if it's not because their Muslim culture is much more violent than that of contemporary Christians, Jews, and  Buddhists, whose carnage against each other pales by comparison."
 
There several things to address here. Buddhist are famous for not participating in such activities but Christians, maybe you can recall the killing of Jews in during WW2. BTW, there are many more such cleansings of Jews in history. The conflicts you refer to "pail in comparison"
 
 
And I think your word "contemporary" is quite appropriate because if we call contamporary post 9/11. The massive amount of destruction of muslim  places by "christian" people is impressive.  See my previous comment.
 
But lets get to Shia versus Sunni.
 
Shia and Sunni are NOT murdering each other in the way you say.
Yes, Saudi Arabia is Sunni and yes Hezbollah is Shia, but that is Saudi/Shia conflict and it is strongly a consequence of the US/KSA backed regime change/war in Syria and the US backed KSA war on Yemen. If we didnt have proxies fighting it would be a Christian/Shia murdering each other.
 
That one is Shia/Saudi again.
You could say it is a US+KSA/Shia conflict.  
I would never let KSA represent the Sunnis in my mind. Most Sunnis that I know would not either.
 
Mustafa
 
Joe Chiang Added Jun 8, 2018 - 9:02pm
Rusy:  Media is PRO-MUSLIM!  So if you are heading anything. it is a watered down version.
 
If you really want to know the truth, look up How Whites are treated in Muslim controlled Western Nations.
 
Thomas:  Excellent analysis.
 
All:  Ghandi was also named by Mohammad as a prophet.
 
Muftafa:  I think you are a big boy and can look up your own references.  I will admit I paraphrased, but the main point is accurate.  Look up the questions I pose and find the answers.  Good Luck!
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 8, 2018 - 10:36pm
Joe,
re:"Muftafa:  I think you are a big boy"
 
?????
Yes Joe, I am, thanks for engaging in an adult conversation.
 
Mustafa
EXPAT Added Jun 8, 2018 - 11:25pm
  Rusty. Mustafa is a liar!                                       

Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 8, 2018 - 8:51pm





Rusty Smith,
re:"let me be the first to admit I've never lived in a Muslim Country, and ask you why I'd need to in order to draw the conclusion I state in my forum topic?  Please enlighten me."
 

Islamophobia
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 5, 2018 - 4:19pm
Opher, interesting article. 
 
Moreover, it is interesting to hear about your cultural historical experience.  Indeed, the Germans brought in large numbers of Turks in the 60s and 70s and apparently they fit in quite well.
l personally lived next to the Turks and we never had a problem with them.

Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 8, 2018 - 11:37pm
EXPAT, 
re:" Rusty. Mustafa is a liar!      "

Dude, you have accused me of pretending to be a muslim, and now you accuse me of being a liar.
 
Can you support any of these allegations?
 
Mustafa
 
Riley Brown Added Jun 9, 2018 - 12:45am
Mustafa, unless you happen to be an Palestinian who lives right on the Israeli border where your more militant peers like to shoot rockets into Israel from, it's unlikely you grew up wondering if tomorrow would bring more bombs from Israel.  Israel may be a lot of things but perhaps because they have limited resources or maybe because they really do just want to strike back at people who are trying to kill Jews in Israel, they don't bomb places that don't shoot at them first.  In the context of this forum the border conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is a minor issue.
 
In this forum we are talking about the Muslim propensity for violence, compared of course to other cultures and I can't remember a time when Sunni and Shia Muslims weren't murdering each other, can you?  Even after Gandhi used pacifism to free India from European rule, the different Muslim sects within that country promptly started killing each other.
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 9, 2018 - 1:02am
Ryan, 
 
re:"in Israel, they don't bomb places that don't shoot at them first. "
Thats clearly not true. I know its the standard meme, but it just not true.
 
 
"In this forum we are talking about the Muslim propensity for violence, compared of course to other cultures and I can't remember a time when Sunni and Shia Muslims weren't murdering each other, can you?"
 
I think I addressed that. I will try again.

I cant remember a time when American blacks and white were not murdering one another. 
 
When was the last war that Iran fought a war?
When was the last time the US fought a war?
Do you know why Iraq fought Iran? Do you think it had anything to do with religion?
 
When was the last time you remember when the US was not murdering muslims.? It has been awhile.  
 
The whole Shia/Sunni conflict meme is old.
 
The Palestinian example is just another example of how violence may come from a culture that has nothing to do with religion and mostly do to the physical experiences they have been through. 
 
Mustafa
 
 
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 9, 2018 - 1:03am
Riley, sorry about calling you Ryan.
EXPAT Added Jun 9, 2018 - 1:25am
Can you support any of these allegations?
 
Can't you read? I copy pasted your pretending to be next to the Turks.
I will not waste my time searching your comments further!
Ryan Messano Added Jun 9, 2018 - 1:43am
Mustafa is amazingly impervious to facts.  He says he isn’t a Muslim, but I really don’t believe him.  Also, Muslims are taught taqiyya.  They are taught to lie if it furthers the cause of Islam.
 
The fact is, if Israel was disarmed, it would be wiped off the face of the earth in two weeks.  If the Palestinians were disarmed, nothing would happen.
 
Mustafa is a treacherous snake, who does not know history.
 
Notice how this serpent operates.  He stirs up discord with his sly subtle manner, seeming never to provoke conflict but doing just that.  He hides his gross ignorance with the facade of sincere questions that are nothing but a mask for his treacherous agenda.  
 
Observe his latest post.  
 
After being exposed as an intellectual fraud, who doesn’t understand squat about America or her Founders, yet relentlessly attacks both to defend his beloved death machine, Islam, this humbug starts a post attacking me for exposing his ignorance of Americas Founders.  Note how he insinuates he knows the Founders, but never lists the five biographies he’s read.  He actually suckered seven liberals who had axes to grind.  He sat back and watched with glee as these seven carried out his savage and vicious campaign, never once commenting.  These seven don’t realize they are just pawns being used by this clever snake.  
 
Look at his latest ruse.  He is really quite clever.  I’m not sure he intentionally substituted my name for Riley, but I know he isn’t in the habit of mistakes.  It’s quite likely he did this as a subtle dig at Riley fir defending me on another post.  I may be mistaken, but this fits his modus operandi.
 
He reminds me of the craven coward Uriah Heep, from Dickens immortal “David Copperfield”.  Heep was a similar detestable serpent, who always talked of his “‘umbleness”, but was notable for his cloying humility, obsequiousness, sycophancy, and insincerity. A dead ringer for our friend, Mustafa.  He will no doubt begin a new round of questions, where he ‘umbly seeks to learn the truth some more, while hiding his true intentions with a devilish grin.  You’re playing with the big boys now, Mustafa.  
 
Look at him in action.  Just like Islam has always done in America, and how they suckered Muhammad Ali, Malcolm X, and Kareem into joining by exacerbating tensions between the races, and hiding the fact that Islam has been enslaving blacks for 1,400 years, this sly serpent tries to stir up race tensions.
 
We just found out today, Mustafa, that Iran was behind 9/11.  What have you got to say for your death cult and Iran? 
 
America gets involved in Muslim nation’s to keep the peace.  If we wanted anything, we could have taken all the oil in the ME and given them
nothing.  But we didn’t, and we still have to deal with ungrateful wretches like you.  
 
Palestine is 90% Muslim.
 
You continue to talk to mask your vast incomprehension of the past, which you absolutely refuse to remedy, preferring your Muslim fairy tales, and their hellhole nations, to reality.  
 
Im only responding to you because there are people on here that are gullible and naive and are deceived by your sly chicanery.  But you will be exposed. 
 
I wish you could have been here for Marilyn French.  We called here Merrily Lyong Fraud.  She tried your tactics, and she was run out of town. She was ruthlessly and relentlessly attacked, until she wilted, and ran to her liberal safe space, never to be seen again.  You will do the same.  You will be ruthlessly destroyed, until you either change, or no one on here takes you seriously at all.  
 
 
 
 
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 9, 2018 - 2:20am
EXPAT
re:"Can you support any of these allegations?
 
Can't you read? "
Yes, certainly.
 
"I copy pasted your pretending to be next to the Turks."
 
I dont know what it means to be "next to the Turks"
I have lived with them.  I have never pretended to be muslim.
 
 
"I will not waste my time searching your comments further!"
 
Either your memory is failing you  or your honesty.
 
Mustafa
 
 
 
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 9, 2018 - 2:22am
Ryan, 
re:"I wish you could have been here for Marilyn French.  We called here Merrily Lyong Fraud.  She tried your tactics, and she was run out of town. She was ruthlessly and relentlessly attacked, until she wilted, and ran to her liberal safe space, never to be seen again.  You will do the same.  You will be ruthlessly destroyed, until you either change, or no one on here takes you seriously at all.  
 "
Havent you had enough yet?
 
"You will be ruthlessly destroyed, until you either change, or no one on here takes you seriously at all.  "
 
What do you mean "You will be ruthlessly destroyed?"
 
you are very silly.
 
Mustafa
 
 
 
 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 9, 2018 - 2:26am
I’m just getting started, Mustafa.
 
”I have not yet begun to fight”
John Paul Jones
 
The library should be open tomorrow, why don’t you get a start on reading those five biographies?  Madison, Rush, Webster, Washington, and Adams are particularly informative. 
 
I know ignorance is bliss, but it must be terribly painful to go to bed at night and know you are an intellectual fraud and poseur.
 
Esse Quam Videri
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 9, 2018 - 3:05am
Riley, let me put it another way, 
 
As I see it there is no Sunni Shi conflict, not yet anyway.
 
What there is an AngloZionist ME conflict, where the AngloZionists are the US/UK/ISRAEL triad with a new member KSA.
 
The conflict is a sort of dovetailing of the Yinon plan to distrupt the ME for Zioinist expansion to Eretz Israel along with the MIC/Banskters War profiteering from all conflicts that we perpetuate, fund, arm and have to respond to. The banksters make $ on all sides. The meme Israel has the right to defend itself is repeated with a little giggle while they continue taking new Palestiain land on a regular basis.
 
The CIA use of muslims to do their proxy work did not begin with Osama Bin Laden. In 
 
Mosque in Munich
the story is told how the Nazis used muslim Turks both as a fifth column inside Russia and for Naze troups, with at least one division of 
70K Turks fighting. Evidently, they perforemed quite well.
After the fall of the Nazis. the CIA coopted that operation as part of the cold war against Russia. This was the source of Russia’s problems in Chechnya. It wasnt religion, it was CIA. Anyway, the CIA has been using muslims (Sunni) as proxies since then.  Well, who is one of the US. bogeymen since the fall of the USSR?
 
Iran.  
 
Consequently, using Sunni proxies to create difficulties for Iran has a long history. Moreover, anything they can do to encourage conflict is good for this plan.  
 
Moreover, the US Neocons are primarily Zionist. Try looking at 
Wolfowitz 7 countries in 5 years
 
 
Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and finishing off Iran."
 
Notice any similarity with what is happening in those countries. Dont take Clarks word for it,, you can find Wolfowitz document.
Here is a list of congressmen with Isreali citizenship. Have you noticed how much our congress listens to us? Do you remember Colin Powel with his WMD?
 
 
THE US SENATE [13]
Richard Blumenthal (D-Tel Aviv)
Barbara Boxer (D-Tel Aviv)
Benjamin Cardin (D-Tel Aviv)
Dianne Feinstein (D-Tel Aviv)
Al Franken (D-Tel Aviv)
Herb Kohl (D-Tel Aviv)
Frank Lautenberg (D-Tel Aviv)
Joseph Lieberman (Independent-Tel Aviv)
Carl Levin (D-Tel Aviv)
Bernard Sanders (Independent--Tel Aviv)
Charles Schumer (D-Tel Aviv)
Ron Wyden (D-Tel Aviv)
Michael Bennet (D-Tel Aviv)

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES [27]
Gary Ackerman (D-NY)
Shelley Berkley (D-Tel Aviv)
Howard Berman (D-Tel Aviv)
Eric Cantor (R-Tel Aviv)
David Cicilline (D-Tel Aviv)
Stephen Cohen (D-Tel Aviv)
Susan Davis (D-Tel Aviv)
Ted Deutch (D-Tel Aviv)
Eliot Engel (D-Tel Aviv)
Bob Filner (D-Tel Aviv)
Barney Frank (D-Tel Aviv)
Gabrielle Giffords (D-Tel Aviv)
Jane Harman (D-Tel Aviv)
Steve Israel (DTel Aviv)
Sander Levin (D-Tel Aviv)
Nita Lowey (D-Tel Aviv)
Jerrold Nadler (D-Tel Aviv)
Jared Polis (D-Tel Aviv)
Steve Rothman (D-Tel Aviv)
Jan Schakowsky (D-Tel Aviv)
Allyson Schwartz (D-Tel Aviv)
Adam Schiff (D-Tel Aviv)
Brad Sherman (D-Tel Aviv)
Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-Tel Aviv)
Henry Waxman (D-Tel Aviv)
Anthony Weiner (D-Tel Aviv)
John Yarmuth (D-Tel Aviv)

 
 
Now, recently it has gotten way more interesting. One of the hlowbacks of the Iraq invasion is that it is now primarily Shia.  Moreover, the Shia sympathetic  Syrians ( including their Christians) have been undergoing US backed regime change using (wait for it ) CIA proxie Sunni extremists. Hezbollah is supporting killing these extremists and, along with Russian, doing a fine job despite the USAs support for the extremists. So, the conflict in Syria is not Sunni Shia but US/IRAEL versus Syria and by extension Iran. Why, because Syra, Iraq Iran now form a Shia crescent, one of making but not our design.  Moreover, part of the Syrian conflict was a pipeline. But Qatar saw the writing on the wall when the Russian entered and, unlike the US, actually started killing ISIS. It has decided it can play ball with Iran and work together to pump gas and make cash. Here is Shia Sunni cooperation.  
 
 
We had a similar discussion regarding Africa. If you look at it in a vacuum and see conflict and ask “why cant tho
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 9, 2018 - 3:06am
Ryan,
re"’m just getting started, Mustafa.
 
”I have not yet begun to fight”
John Paul Jones"
 
I liked Led Zeppelin. We have similar tastes in music.

Mustafa
 
 
 
Kurt Bresler Added Jun 9, 2018 - 5:17am
For many of those who do not understand why Shia vs Sunni conflicts will continue perhaps reading some of this article will help.  
 
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-crisis-prophecy-insight/apocalyptic-prophecies-drive-both-sides-to-syrian-battle-for-end-of-time-idUSBREA3013420140401
 
REUTERS,  WORLD NEWS  APRIL 1, 2014  -
 
““They are all here as promised by the Prophet. This is the war he promised - it is the Grand Battle,” he told Reuters, using a word which can also be translated as slaughter.
On the other side, many Shi’ites from Lebanon, Iraq and Iran are drawn to the war because they believe it paves the way for the return of Imam Mahdi - a descendent of the Prophet who vanished 1,000 years ago and who will re-emerge at a time of war to establish global Islamic rule before the end of the world.
According to Shi’ite tradition, an early sign of his return came with the 1979 Iranian revolution, which set up an Islamic state to provide fighters for an army led by the Mahdi to wage war in Syria after sweeping through the Middle East.
“This Islamic Revolution, based on the narratives that we have received from the prophet and imams, is the prelude to the appearance of the Mahdi,” Iranian cleric and parliamentarian Ruhollah Hosseinian said last year.""
Kurt Bresler Added Jun 9, 2018 - 5:40am
As Ryan mentioned before  there will be no peace until they all kill each other then the world what is left of it will have peace or at least a better chance.
 
Remember the US bombed the hell out of Germany, Italy, Japan however we never hear of suicide bombers killing American's due to the conflicts in WWII.   But because we try to keep some Countries from taking over the Middle-East we now have become the Main enemy of Muslims,   That may be the teaching they are receiving from those who wish to brain-wash Muslims such as Iran and the Ayatollahs, Hezbollah, and the PLO but the US much like Riley mentioned about Israel does not go out and kill people unless it feels it or it's ally is threatened.  Iran is constantly threatening everyone.  It is on a one track road to bring about a World Wide Shi'ite Isalmic Caliphate starting with cleaning out the Sunni Muslim opposition in the ME, ie reason for wars going on in Syria, Yemen, Gaza border, Lebanon, and anywhere Iran get Shi'ites enrolled on it's side.
opher goodwin Added Jun 9, 2018 - 8:00am
Rusty - the figures for terrorist acts in the USA show the Right-wing are responsible for twice as many terrorist acts as Muslims:
http://www.politifact.com/california/article/2017/aug/31/who-carries-out-more-terror-attacks-us-soil-right-/
And they are supposedly Christian aren't they?
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 9, 2018 - 8:09am
Mustafa  >>I cant remember a time when American blacks and white were not murdering one another.>>  Well then start giving us a time line because I have only a few points on mine.   And please do separate police acting to enforce the law.   The KKK in the south after the Civil War is the one major example and that was sanctioned by the mostly Democratic local and state governments.  
 
Today we have a black on black murder rate that should meet your level.  And to address this the police are enforcing the law.  If you looked at the video of the police beating up the black man that refused to sit down the black policeman was doing most of the punching.   
Bill Kamps Added Jun 9, 2018 - 8:27am
Saying a religion preaches peace or violence, is like saying someone is a good person, or a bad person.  It is too simplistic.   All religions preach peace, but at various times their followers have strayed, often in the name of their religion.
 
Religions that have lasted a couple of thousand years are complex.  We all know plenty of wars have been fought over religion and there has been an ebb and flow to the violence.  At one time Christianity was pretty violent and war like. 
 
When talking about whether an immigrant is likely to be violent, again a complex matter with a number of factors, religion being just one  of those factors.  If I am forced to pick a single factor, to me the country of origin is more important than the religion.  I think a Muslim who lived their whole life in Norway is less likely to be a threat than a Christian who lived their whole life in Syria for a number of reasons.   That however does not say that religion shouldnt enter into the calculation. 
 
There are a number of reasons why Muslims currently "are so violent".  A lot has to do with the status of things in the MidEast.  However, the most populous Muslim country by far, Indonesia does not have the level of suicide bombs, and overt violence as they do in the MidEast.  Again, location matters as much or more than religion.  So perhaps we should be asking the question about MidEast Muslims, but not necessarily Muslims world wide.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 9, 2018 - 9:01am
We should ask questions about geopolitics not religion.
Rusty Smith Added Jun 9, 2018 - 9:58am
opher goodwin , I read your article and don't agree with the author.  Terrorism is an action intended to insight change.  The author seems to be classifying any violent act a terrorist action, and we've never previously defined them that way.  Historically angry people have gone postal longer than I can remember and if all they are trying to do is kill people they don't like, and have no social or political agenda, it's not terrorism.  From all I can tell even those types of violence are more prevalent in Muslim communities, in Muslim countries, and even in non Muslim countries like the UK wherever Muslims abound.  
 
I also see another distinction, you said "they're supposedly Christian aren't they?"  When was the last time you heard of a Christian person screaming some equivalent to "Aliakbar" before blowing themselves and non-Christians up?  We don't usually know what religion the people are who go postal because unlike most terrorist acts perpetrated by Muslims, there is no religious affiliation or significance to what they are doing.
 
We have had right wing terrorist actions, Mcveigh is the most spectacular example, but that's only one.  I have lost count of the number of violent terrorist actions perpetuated in the US by people who claimed they were doing them in the name of Allah to further Arab causes, usually in other countries.  
TexasLynn Added Jun 9, 2018 - 10:02am
On the Blessings of “Moderate” Islam
Dave makes an interesting (and valid) observation... there are many Muslims in his town, and yet, he still breaths.  Why?
 
I would like to take a stab at that one.
 
First, understand that Islam is a violent, murderous, misogynist "religion" because that was the basic nature of its founder, Mohammed.  It's how he lived, it's what he taught, it's what he expected his followers to do in perpetuity.  As such, Islam has been a scourge on civilized society since its inception.
 
So why aren't ALL followers of Islam these things today?
 
The Short Answer: Human nature
 
It all gets back to what Jesus called being "lukewarm" in your religious convictions.  The term implies there are levels of belief and commitment in application to our faith.
 
1) Hot (really believing, going all in and following your faith)
2) Cold (not believing at all, doing your own thing)
3) Lukewarm (taking or leaving your professed religion, just kind of going through the motions)
 
Human nature actually pushes men to the third level, lukewarm, when it comes to faith and religion.  This goes for all religions/faiths; even Christian and (luckily) Islam.
 
In his admonition, Jesus tells Christians that being lukewarm is even worse than being cold.  He says, he would rather we be totally against Him (cold) than be kind-of for him (lukewarm).  He wants our total devotion to Him and His cause.
 
Now... when you have a practicing (hot) Christian you get someone who embraces what Christ taught... love, and charity, and hope.  When you have a practicing (lukewam) Christian, it is a tragic waste of possibility.
 
When you have a practicing (hot) Muslim you get someone who embraces what Mohammed taught... murder, death, misogyny, and slavery (to Islam).  When you have a practicing (lukewarm) Muslim, it is a blessing of moderation.
 
Dave... your Muslims are lukewarm.  They either don't take their religion seriously enough to really know what Mohammed taught, OR have fooled themselves into thinking he taught something else.  They're "moderate".  Be grateful for that; but understand one thing... they are also very inconsequential in the direction and nature of Islam. 
 
THAT power is held by the hot practitioners as Mohammed intended; and all it takes is ONE of those to educate you to the true nature of Mohammed's teachings.  The moderates will not themselves kill or persecute you, but neither will they lift a finger to stop those who will.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 9, 2018 - 10:05am
Rusty
 
Good comment though. Worth to think about.
 
May atheism be a solution ? LOL
Doug Plumb Added Jun 9, 2018 - 10:23am
You cannot judge Islam from the appearance or actions of its practitioners, it is what it's book says it is and its followers will always be approximations to what is in that book. Pedophilia and slavery are sanctioned in that book. Women have no rights in that book. Islamification of all society is required in that book. Pedophilia and slavery are requirements, because Mahommed was the perfect man and that's what he did.
Westerners have every reason to be Islamophobic.
For those North Americans rallying against Islamophobia, you are going to feel very stupid when you are a minority and facing endless discrimination in the land you were born. You will have yourselves to blame.
White genocide is being demanded by the media and institutions today. See Melinda Gates asking employers directly to discriminate against white folk, See Noel Ignatieve demanding all whiteness being destroyed using any method.
Why aren't you concerned about these people ? If anyone got on the Set and said the same thing but placed the word Jew or Muslim in place of whites, they would be arrested.
One central problem with dialectical materialism is that it doesn't have a reference to make sound judgements. Fundamentally, it doesn't have sanity and it has no way of making sound moral judgements. Commies will not look at and cognize the above links.
 
In the end, we deserve what we get. Keep bringing immigrants aboard your ship while someone drills holes in the hull.
 
Who is behind multiculturalism? Can you discuss the JQ? Or are you afraid?
Ryan Messano Added Jun 9, 2018 - 10:46am
Well said TexasLynn and Doug.
 
Islam is fundamentally violent and lustful.  Christ never killed anyone or commanded them to be killed. Muhammad killed thousands and is responsible for commanding the death of hundreds of millions.  
 
Christ died a virgin.  Muhammad had 8 wives at 54, and still married his best friends 6 year old daughter, Aisha, and consummated the marriage when she was nine.  What a sick, perverted, dirty old man he was.  Yet 1.8 billion Muslims around the world sing the praises of this bloody lecher.
opher goodwin Added Jun 9, 2018 - 3:09pm
Rusty - I think the white supremacists have a political agenda and want change. The KKK supposed operated as a Christian group didn't they?
I don't like religion but I think you're picking and choosing.
Joe Chiang Added Jun 9, 2018 - 4:40pm
Guys, I do not think Mustafa is ignorant in any way.  I believe he knows EXACTLY what he is doing.  He is deliberately altering history to his version of history.  He is deliberately altering the Muslim faith and Christian for that matter, to what he wants it to be to fit his agenda.  There is nothing real in anything he says.  
 
Mustafa keeps challenging everyone to prove their statements, yet he provides proof of NOTHING!  Why?  Because there is no proof except in a warped sort of way.
Rusty Smith Added Jun 9, 2018 - 7:48pm
Opher, back when the KKK was powerful I'd definitely say they were a hate group practicing terrorism including murder, to try and get their way.  Fortunately in contemporary America they are regarded as nutcases and generally forced to limit their actions to outrageous public displays of free speech that usually require police protection to ensure they don't get the tar beat out of them.
 
If I could deny KKK members immigration rights to the US I would in a heartbeat, but most are already here and citizens.  Today their total yearly terrorism pales compared to what we see in this country perpetuated in the name of Islam.  There are other tiny groups of Americans who also occasionally use terrorism against abortion clinics, and there too, I'd gladly send them somewhere else because I don't condone their actions.  I don't remember the last time that happened but I haven't forgotten either.
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 10, 2018 - 2:01am
@Rusty Smith
 
 "From what I can see Middle Eastern Muslims have had a history of violence and intolerance even among themselves that continues even today.  Muslim sects have been massacuring each other over trivial differences in their own perception of what a good Muslim is for ages"
 
 Wow.
 
That's amazing, Rusty.  You are right, these Muslim sects massacre each other at the drop of a hat.
 
You'd almost think they were Christians.  
 
Almost.
 
30 Years War
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 10, 2018 - 2:03am
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 10, 2018 - 2:05am
There are multiple examples.  But we can't forget the big ones:
World War One
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 10, 2018 - 2:07am
World War II
World War Two
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 10, 2018 - 2:10am
Now, technically those weren't religious wars but with the exception of the USSR those countries that fought in them were Christian countries.  In fact, one of the worst genocides in history was perpetrated by a nation of Christians against another religious sect, the Jews.  
 
Is that what Jesus would do?
opher goodwin Added Jun 10, 2018 - 5:23am
Rusty - I'm pleased to hear that. It's not what we hear over here about white supremacist groups. They seem to be involved in a lot of shootings.
Bill Kamps Added Jun 10, 2018 - 7:40am
I agree with what Rusty said about the KKK.   They are not nearly so active and powerful as they once were.  However, they are a "Christian" organization, and demonstrate that Islam is not the only religion that has practiced violence over history.  It varies over time, and also over the geopolitics of the area. 
 
History changes the situation.  What Riley said about Shia and Sunni Muslims could have been said about Europeans before 1945.  There were hundreds of years of warfare among the European countries.  Im sure people in 1944 thought the wars would never end.  These wars were often on a very large scale. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 10, 2018 - 8:16am
Bill K  this is crap >> All religions preach peace, but at various times their followers have strayed, >>  Faricon (Muslim) or Obama's preacher are not preaching peace.  
 
How about this Bill K:
Translated by Memri TV Heilkh Ayman Elkasaby
The Islamic Center of Jersey City, New Jersey
youtube Nov. 24, 2017
When the Muslims were praying the Friday prayer as the Al-Rawdah Mosque in Sinia, a terrible incident occurred and blood began to flow. There were over 250 martyrs in that Friday prayer, and more than 110 were wounded. These people had committed no crime or sin. The only thing they did was to come to the house of Allah.
Some people condemn the attack, saying that it was done by ISIS terrorists. Enough! Stop being rediculous! They've made fools out of us with (stories) of ISIS and similar groups.
By Allah, this could only have been done by the enemies of Islam - the Jews and their subordinates from among the Muslim rulers.
What ISIS are they talking about? What groups are they referring to?
What Muslims are they talking about? No Muslim who recites the two shahadas would ever do such a thing in Allah's house of prayer, in a Christian house, or even in a church. It is inconceivable that a Muslim would blow up a church or a mosque.
- Oh Allah, take revenge upon whoever has shed the blood of the Muslims! - Amen.
- Allah, take revenge upon whoever killed the Muslims! - Amen.
- Allah, take revenge upon whoever violated the sanctity of Allah's houses of worship. - Amen.
-Oh Allah, hasten your revenge, oh Lord of the Worlds! - Amen.
(- Oh Allah, count the oppressors one by one, and kill them down to the very last one. Do not leave a single one upon the Earth.)
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 10, 2018 - 8:18am
The only problem Bill is that he doesn't consider that an opposing sect of Islam attacked.  This is very common.
Bill Kamps Added Jun 10, 2018 - 9:20am
Thomas, I didnt say all religious leaders preach peace.  So you are taking what I say out of context and exaggerating. 
 
You are a smart guy, so I know if you read carefully what I wrote, you would realize that what you stated actually supports what I said.  That people like the KKK, like Farakan, like various Christian leaders, like ISIS, have used religions as a reason to promote hatred.  That does not mean the religion promotes hatred.
Dave Volek Added Jun 10, 2018 - 9:48am
Rusty
 
Today their total yearly terrorism pales compared to what we see in this country perpetuated in the name of Islam. 
 
You are making a blanket statement that has no basis. The Las Vegas shooter was no Muslim. The recent school shootings were not Muslims. I could go on, but there are far more people killed in the USA from non-Muslim terrorists than Muslim terrorists. 
 
If we look at an international scale, Muslim terrorists kill far more Muslims than non-Muslims. 
 
Most violence done in the name of Islam is a few small groups trying to take control over other people. 
 
 
 
 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 10, 2018 - 9:51am
Islam makes up 1% of America, Dave.  That’s why the problem isn’t more pronounced. 
Rusty Smith Added Jun 10, 2018 - 10:23am
Jeffrey, I guess you didn't notice, I focused the forum on contemporary problems.  I am concerned about current threats and not pretending things that happened in history never happened, but if they don't translate into a current threat, I don't worry about them reoccuring today.  1,000 years ago Christian Crusaders wreaked havoc in Muslim countries but US Christians contemporary record in the US is relatively peaceful when compared to Muslims in the US.
 
You remind me of many Black people who act as though every White person is trying to bring back slavery, and tell horror stories perpetuated in the distant past as examples that justify their current fears.
 
If you list all the contemporary terrorist actions over the last few years in America, most have been perpetuated in the name of Islam, not Christianity.  The Muslim population is less than 3 million people in the US and Islam and inspires more terrorism than all the other religions combined, (over 300 million people including Athiests).   
Rusty Smith Added Jun 10, 2018 - 10:30am
Opher, I've tried looking into the White Supremacist groups and from what I can see they spend a lot of time and effort commiserating with each other, and a little time going out in public and making a spectacle of themselves, usually with a strong police presence around to try and stop the public from beating them up. 
 
Perhaps because they have so few committed members they never have much real impact.  Maybe they would if there were millions of them, but there aren't and most of the more violent ones get arrested for drug, parole and gun violations, not terrorist acts.  
Rusty Smith Added Jun 10, 2018 - 10:41am
Bill, the KKK has morphed into other things, but none of them base their agenda on their Christian religion or the values it inspires.  
 
They want to isolate themselves from non Christians and anyone who is not White.  
 
It is wrong to say anything they do is done or inspired by their Christian faith, in fact I'd say they have to try awful hard to ignore many parts of that Christian faith in order to claim they are reverent Christians and still behave like they do towards people they don't like.
 
Rusty Smith Added Jun 10, 2018 - 11:00am
Dave, you are confusing violent acts with terrorism and my forum is specifically about terrorism. 
 
The Las Vegas shooter had no desire to inspire change that we know of.  There is nothing we think he wanted and nothing about the people he killed that led him to target that group.  He certainly didn't say he was doing it for Jesus.
 
McVeigh on the other hand targeted the federal building for political reasons, which did make him a terrorist.  As an American uninspired by Islam, that makes him fairly unique and fortunately for us rare.  He too never indicated he was inspired by his religious beliefs.  I can call him a terrorist but not a religiously inspired one.
 
The only other religiously inspired violent acts I can think of perpetuated in the UP are by Christians against abortion clinics and they are truly so few in number that they are almost insignificant numerically.
 
A lot of Americans with nothing in common except anger commit violent acts on a regular basis, but none in the name of their religion as frequently as Muslims.  In today's America that religion stands alone in it's almost unique ability to inspire violence.
 
The violence we often see even includes some usually low level violence against Muslims by people of other faiths and Atheists.  Many are specifically targeting Muslims just because they are Muslim but even that isn't inspired by their religion.  They are not doing it because they think God wants them to and they don't justify their actions by quoting their religion.
TexasLynn Added Jun 10, 2018 - 12:23pm
I know I'm repeating a lot of what Rusty has already said...
 
Dave >> I could go on, but there are far more people killed in the USA from non-Muslim terrorists than Muslim terrorists.
 
That depends. 
 
Over the last year ... sure.
 
Since September 12, 2001 ... sure.
 
Since September 11, 2001 ... I would say the Muslim terrorist win that total by a long shot.
 
But it's not informative to compare Muslims with non-Muslims; it would be better to look at the religious affiliation of the terrorist when it is a factor in their actions.
 
If you do that (Since September 12, 2001) ...
 
#1 Atheist (usually mentally ill)
#2 Muslims
#3 though #100 (statistically minuscule in comparison to the top two).
TexasLynn Added Jun 10, 2018 - 12:31pm
The left likes to being up White Supremacists and the KKK to falsely assert a moral equivalence between Islam and Christianity.
 
It's always hard to tell if those who push this narrative believe their own lies.  I suspect they consciously choose not to think through it too far.
 
Here is what they would discover if the did...
 
1) The number of White Supremacists and KKK members is insignificant... the number of Islamic terrorists is not.
 
2) Because their number is insignificant, so is the number and the impact of any terror they commit.
 
3) The White Supremacists and KKK are motivated by racism... not Christianity.  The Islamic terrorists are motivated directly by the teachings of Mohammed.
opher goodwin Added Jun 10, 2018 - 1:14pm
Rusty - you fill me with optimism. All I hear is about things like Charlottesville and Dylan Roof. Then there's reports like this:
https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/dark-constant-rage-25-years-of-right-wing-terrorism-in-united-states
opher goodwin Added Jun 10, 2018 - 1:19pm
Tex - I'm not sure what you say is accurate. According to the Huffington post:
Looking at both plots and attacks carried out, the group tracked 201 terrorist incidents on U.S. soil from January 2008 to the end of 2016. The database shows 115 cases by right-wing extremists ― from white supremacists to militias to “sovereign citizens” ― compared to 63 cases by Islamist extremists. Incidents from left-wing extremists, which include ecoterrorists and animal rights militants, were comparatively rare, with 19 incidents. 
Rusty Smith Added Jun 10, 2018 - 3:31pm
opher goodwin  this forum asks if Islam is really the religion of peace, but you keep focusing on non religiously inspired violence.
 
 I read your article and they too are not examining the potential correlation between Islam or any religion and that they call terrorism.  They did a pretty good job of recognizing the fact that many of the elements activists often use to classify the violent actions we often read about don't really indicate any real relationship to terrorism.  Many extremist groups have had standoffs that included shooting matches with the authorities, like the Bundy family in Nevada, without having any terrorist agenda.  Others were demonized because they had large caches of weapons, and that too has no relationship.  Even the recent school shootings have not been perpetuated by people who were advancing terrorist agendas, much less religiously inspired agendas.

How many of the "right wing extremist" incidents you just brought up were perpetrated by people who said they thought they were doing what God wanted them to do?
 
From what I can see the most extreme suppremists are not religious, and tend to want to isolate themselves from the general public.  I can't remember one incident where they murdered anyone in the name of God or Jesus, can you?
 
Compare that to Muslims who frequently say things just as they go postal that at least on the surface, make it look like they are being inspired by Islam, and think their Islamic beliefs support and condone the actions they are taking.
 
TexasLynn Added Jun 10, 2018 - 3:55pm
OG >> I'm not sure what you say is accurate. According to the Huffington post:
 
Why does that not that surprise me?
 
Uggg... I don't even want to bother... but if I must.
 
1) Right off the bat you cite the "Huffington Post"; that's not a good start.  Do you think the Huffington Post (or anyone they direct you to) might have an agenda?
 
2) Next you site "the group" as the ones who tracked and compiled all this “useful” data.  Who the $%^& is "the group" and why do you put so much stock in their composition?  Anybody can use google, Opher, to reinforce their echo chamber; granted given the nature of google, it's easier for your side.
 
We shouldn't have to go any further... but...
 
3) Why did "the group" pick 2008 as the starting point?  Why not 2005?  Why not 2001?  Why not September 2001?
 
4) "The group" tracked cases.  Are cases what is important here or is body count?  What is the criteria of a "case" for "the group" when they decide to count one... or more importantly not count one.
 
5) I never mentioned "left leaning" extremist in my comment, Opher.  I said "atheist".  But I can see where you would naturally equate the two.  We were talking about the religious inclinations of the terrorists. 
 
Is "leftism" a religion?  I actually agree with that... but I'm just surprised that you would to.
 
In the future, please save us some time and tell me exactly "in quotes" any sentence I wrote that is inaccurate?
Jeff Michka Added Jun 10, 2018 - 6:37pm
opher: You aren't keeping TraitorLynn happy, and Ryan, PlumbDoug and TL.  TraitorLLynn will say anything to prevent a discussion about his treason, and just wants silly, noncritical rightists, to read his stuff and applaud his rightist hypocrisy.   Yeah, most WB rightists don't have a problem with someone like TraitorLynn mouthing noise about succession on one hand, then using patriotism to get  an audience.  In reality, TraitorLynn shouldn't care about football players taking a knee, but to provide a rightist platform for their patriotic crocodile.   TraitorLynn can only maintain his hypocrisy by deleting comments or being nasty at a personal level, I've never plumbed the depths of. 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 10, 2018 - 6:58pm
@Rusty Smith:
 "Jeffrey, I guess you didn't notice, I focused the forum on contemporary problems.  I am concerned about current threats and not pretending things that happened in history never happened, but if they don't translate into a current threat, I don't worry about them reoccuring today."
 
The problem is you can't do that, Rusty.  All events have root causes.  The West meddled in the affairs of Muslim nations for hundreds of years, including colonizing or dividing up Muslim territory when it suited them to do so.  Because of oil the West continues to do so.
 
"You remind me of many Black people who act as though every White person is trying to bring back slavery, and tell horror stories perpetuated in the distant past as examples that justify their current fears."
 
Actually you needed the reminder.  Christian hands are soaked with blood, it's hypocritical to accuse Muslims of being murderous when Christianity behaved the same way, hell, worse.
 
It's a human problem, not a religious one.
 
"If you list all the contemporary terrorist actions over the last few years in America, most have been perpetuated in the name of Islam, not Christianity.  The Muslim population is less than 3 million people in the US and Islam and inspires more terrorism than all the other religions combined, (over 300 million people including Athiests)."
 
OK, enlighten me.
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 10, 2018 - 7:23pm
Joe Chiang,
you have a way of twisting my words in a not so clever manipulation
For example,
re"Mustafa keeps challenging everyone to prove their statements, yet he provides proof of NOTHING! "
 
I have never challenged anyone to "prove" anything. When someone makes a declarative statement that is not universally agreed upon, it is normal to be allowed to ask for thewriter to provide some "support" This can be used to transform it from a declarative statement ( which like an opinion means little unless you just want us to hear what you think) into something that has some informational value.  I
 
As for my not proving anything, am I suppose to prove anything? If you ask me to provide some support, some extra information, I will be happy to do so.   I certainly dont respond to such a request with
"5 biographies" or  when I address your comment  directly  and you respond with " Muftafa, I think you are a big boy and can look up your own references."
 
No, the burden of support (for adults) is on the one who makes the assertion. 
 
Mustafa 
 
Dave Volek Added Jun 10, 2018 - 9:44pm
Texas Lynn
 
Good angle on the stats. I would suggest that some of these Muslim terrorists were also mentally ill as well. 
 
But I'll just give you the point that Muslim terrorists are #2. So what do we do with the rest of the Muslims?
 
Rusty Smith Added Jun 10, 2018 - 10:44pm
Well Kelly given that you don't expect modern day Muslims to play well with Americans in general, because of all the things you say Americans are responsible for over the last several hundred years, than I guess you are saying we should expect them to want to kill us.
 
If I assume that is true, then would the US be acting logically if they said NO MORE MUSLIMS?  After all as you say, we'd just be bringing in people who are predispositioned to want to kill us.
TexasLynn Added Jun 10, 2018 - 11:05pm
Dave >> Good angle on the stats.
 
Thank you for the acknowledgment.
 
Dave >> I would suggest that some of these Muslim terrorists were also mentally ill as well.
 
Sure, I could see them fitting the clinical definition of mentally ill.  So, there is a little acknowledgment right back at ya'.
 
Dave >> So what do we do with the rest of the Muslims?
 
Now THAT is a very tough question; maybe one worthy of an entire post.
 
The problem with "moderate" Muslims isn't that they will all suddenly turn hot... but rather that each and every one of them carries an unpredictable time-bomb (the teachings of Mohammad) that they or their children may (or may not) eventually embrace.
 
One does not invite time-bombs to immigrate.  So, recognize that Islam (especially certain sects) as not a religion but as an ideological/political force; further, I posit, a force that is incompatible with freedom, and liberty, and western civilization.
 
After WWII we were wise enough to exclude from immigration communists and fascists (and for good reason).  The same principle applies here.
 
As for the Muslims already citizens... treat them according to the rule of law.  They are citizens, treat them as such; with respect and in hopes in a generation or two they will integrate (further reducing the likelihood of explosion).  With that in mind... do not allow "no go zones" or pockets of Sharia law or honor killings... etc...
 
As for Muslim nations; work with those whom you can and encourage moderate behavior.  For those who are beyond reproach, isolate them as much as possible.
 
That's the best short answer I can come up with.
 
Jeffrey Kelly Added Jun 11, 2018 - 12:17am
@Rusty Smith:
”Well Kelly given that you don't expect modern day Muslims to play well with Americans in general, because of all the things you say Americans are responsible for over the last several hundred years, than I guess you are saying we should expect them to want to kill us.”
 
No, not all.  There are radicals who want to damage this country and other Western countries.  Their animosity runs deep.  But not all Muslims want to harm this country.
 
“If I assume that is true, then would the US be acting logically if they said NO MORE MUSLIMS?  After all as you say, we'd just be bringing in people who are predispositioned to want to kill us.”
 
Well, if your assumption was true then I’d say yes.  But since not all Muslims want to then you are wrong.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 11, 2018 - 1:02am
What percent of America do Muslims make up, Jeffrey?
 
And what happens as this percentage increases in five stages to the fifty percent level? What is the Muslim birth rate??  What is the American women birthrate?
 
I have a Quran, do you?  What does Sura 8:12 say?
 
Did Jesus kill anyone, or command it in the NT?
 
What about Muhammad, did he kill anyone, or does the Quran command unbelievers to be killed?
 
Did Jesus marry multiple wives and his best friends 6 year old daughter or was that Muhammad?
opher goodwin Added Jun 11, 2018 - 4:39am
Rusty - I do not think that any religion is a religion of peace and Islam is one of the worst. All religion has created division, hatred, cruelty, violence and war. The crazy barbarity of ISIS is among the worst but has been matched by most religions at times.
The tortures carried out by Christians were equally as bad. At present the Hindu fundamentalists are rampaging in India, the Islamic nutters are still at it all over the place, the Christians are still bombing Muslims, The Buddhists are attacking minorities in Myanmar, the Jews are shooting Palestinians. I imagine that is the tip of the iceberg.
Having said that the majority of followers of all religions live moderate peaceful lives. It is the extreme fundamentalists that cause the trouble.
As for the white supremacists and other neo-Nazis - they are as bad as any of them.
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 11, 2018 - 8:56am
Bill K. Islam is not a religion of piece and those preaching terrorism are not radicals The are fundamental Muslims, the core of Islam.  I will repeat what I quoted earlier because you do not get it.
"Sociologist Jacques Ellul notes, "Jihad is a religious obligation. It forms part of the duties that the believer must fulfill; it is Islam’s normal path to expansion."
and
Islam in Arabic means "SUBMISSION." Islam has never been a religion of peace from the prophet Mohammad conquered the Arabian Peninsula. (he was the leader of the government)  In the century after Islam religious government, Caliphate (Islamic religious government) conquered the Northern Mediterranean coast into Spain and into India. Islam became the dominant religion in the area by applying the tactics that have been repeated by ISIS today. The Quran says, “Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way, God is forgiving and Merciful.” (Surah 9:5)
 
Take these two together and add that non Muslims are second class individuals in Muslim society, (second class means surf or slave level, first class can kill second class at will)  
 
Summarize Jihad is a religious obligation, the duties that believer must fulfill.
 
Jihad allows the Slay the idolaters (non Muslims) wherever you find them.
 
Jihad is Islam’s normal path to expansion.
Rusty Smith Added Jun 11, 2018 - 11:31am
Texas and Dave, you might be surprised how deeply I research homicides.   I'm a little surprised no one else in the forum has noticed but the US has actually done a pretty good job keeping out foreign terrorists, including most from foreign countries. 
 
The truth is that most Islamic terrorism in this country is done by American born terrorists who were misfits to begin with, discovered Islam in this country and were guided into action by radical Muslims.  You can see that's largely true by examining individual terrorists backgrounds.  It's not a universal fact, but it's true more than half the time.
 
These days if you are looking for the next potential terrorist the disenfranchised kid next door who has discovered Islam and has been spending a lot of time with his new Muslim friends, is a more likely terrorist than a Muslim country. 
 
At this time in history Islam has an abundance of radical followers who preach jajad and a current track record of convincing their followers to kill Americans in the name of Islam.  I do notice most don't do it themselves, they convince young men who can be riled up easily and inclined to violence, and get them to do the dirty work.  At this time in history no other religion in the US regularly inspires followers to commit terrorist acts.  
Rusty Smith Added Jun 11, 2018 - 11:38am
Jeffrey Kelly so correct me if I'm wrong, but you are saying that since we can't tell the Muslim immigrants who want to kill us from the ones who don't, and there are more that don't, we should just continue letting them all in.
 
I disagree, we're not talking about people who might say things we don't like, we're talking about people who are going to help others murder our citizens and I think we have an obligation to do more including putting pressure on Muslim communities to do more to put an end to Islamic terrorism in this country.
 
Perhaps if immigration from Muslim countries that preach radical Islam was halted until American Muslims became outraged with with radical Muslims in this country and stood against them, things might get better.  As long as the greater Muslim community supports them, I don't want them here.
Rusty Smith Added Jun 11, 2018 - 11:43am
opher goodwin I would agree that all religions can be used to justify violence, and most have been at one time or another.  
 
From what I can see in the US today the only religion that has been regularly inspiring terrorism is Islam.  
TexasLynn Added Jun 11, 2018 - 12:02pm
Thomas >> They are fundamental Muslims, the core of Islam.
 
Great comment and explanation.  Anybody, who gives the Quran even a cursory read can quickly understand the nature of Islam.  Few put forth the effort, and simply take the word of the Mohammedans or the politically correct as to its nature.
 
A fundamentalist Muslim (meaning one who is actually following Islam as its founder intended) ... is a terrorist.  Thank God (not the same as Allah), they are in the minority.
 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 
Opher >> I do not think that any religion is a religion of peace and Islam is one of the worst. All religion has created division, hatred, cruelty, violence and war.
 
Try as you might, Opher, there is NO moral or numerical equivalence between ANY religion (especially Christianity) and the fruits (destruction) of Islam.
 
You take the exceptions of other religions violence, or twists the facts of current conflicts so as to achieve this equivalence.  I'm even sure you believe it... but your math and reasoning are way off.
 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 
Rusty >> The truth is that most Islamic terrorism in this country is done by American born terrorists who were misfits to begin with, discovered Islam in this country and were guided into action by radical Muslims. 
 
Exactly, in those cases that unpredictable time-bomb went off ... a young person took the bomb (the teachings of Mohammad) that their parents never gave much thought to and embraced it; thus, becoming the bomb themselves.
 
Granted it's rare, but all it takes is one and all of a sudden you have trucks mowing down civilians or pressure cooker bombs going off in crowds or a gunman shooting up an office/nightclub.
Dave Volek Added Jun 11, 2018 - 3:54pm
Rusty & Lynn
 
Once again, very good reasoning behind your positions.
 
I would add that we do need to put some surveillance on possible "time bombs" and be ready to act before they act. In this way, we can stop some incidents, but not all. And in this way, the more extreme elements should be suspicious that they are being watched. That will have its own deterrent effect.
 
And in the end, we apply the law against them.
 
 
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 11, 2018 - 4:44pm
I do believe that Islam can change.  Judaism 1000 years BC was also a judgmental theology and did have a limited promise land to occupy.  The old testament does not present a peaceful taking of the land or a peaceful history of those that didn't believe in the one true God.  But it did change in about 550 BC.   And that changed, religion lost the connection to government.  It is the foundation of Christianity. 
 
Religion as always struggled with its relationship with government because it is a power base that those in government want to use.  So all religions do from time to time become a tool of government by choice or force.   Islam is one with government as Judaism was in the beginning.  Judaism tried to keep the government small and local.  Weak.  Only combining together in times of crisis.  That is when a leader appears, only for a crisis.  With the planet being the promise land Islam is in continuous crisis of how to conqueror the promise land.  
 
That is what on new years day 2015 the president of Egypt called for.  And examination of Islam.  The impossibility of conquering the world without destroying the planet and or Islam. 
Joe Chiang Added Jun 11, 2018 - 4:50pm
Been a while since I have been on this thread.  A lot has gone on.  The discussion has been bouncing all over the place.  Were to start?
 
Muystafa:  Since you named me in your comment. I'll start there.  I stand corrected.  You only said that once:  "Can you support any of these allegations?"
 
I do not agree with you on Islam teaching only to listen to prophets.  They also consider Mohammad a (THE) prophet.  So they claim to FOLLOW what he says, not just listen.  As a teacher, I consider it a waste of time to have a student come to class to "listen" and not participate and practice.  I can believe that Mohammad intended nothing less.  If Mohammad meant to just "listen" to prophets, but NOT consider and follow what they said, then why did he every say they were prophets?  The extension of this reasoning causes us to ask, why should Muslims do what he said.  But then those who claim to follow what he says do not actually follow what he says any more than many who claim to be Christians actually follow what Christ taught.
 
Thomas:  Not all religions throughout history were peaceful.  Some religions demanded conquering neighboring nations and sacrificing their enemies, like the Aztecs and Incas who advocated eating parts of their enemy's bodies (BTW there have been scientific studies where earth worms who had learned a lesson, I think having to do with an electric shock, and were consumed by another earthworm, the eating earthworm did gain the "knowledge" of the lesson from the first.  So there might be merit to eating a brave enemy to gain their bravery.)  Pharaoh Worship also demanded human sacrifices.  Builders of the Pyramids were burred in them so they could not divulge the secrets of how it was built or what might have been buried there.  Baal demanded the sacrifice of infants.  Volcano worship used to demand the sacrifice of Virgins (until they couldn't find any more virgins?  LOL)  I know TMI, sorry.
 
To ALL:
Islam Violence;  The Arab peoples have been violent since way before Mohammad.  Islam has given more direction, purpose, and excuse for the violence they have been exercising.  Note the Arab-Israeli conflicts when Israel was originally a nation and now it continues after.  But the conflicts have not been limited to Israel.  Please note that the last time the Arabs were a great peoples was under the name Ottoman Empire in WWI.  When they lost that war, that ended their participation as a people politically.  So their fighting has moved to the religious realm for an excuse and aimed at world domination, for Allah, by becoming the majority of voters in more democratic societies.
 
The Koran teaches lying to Infidels (non-Muslims), violence against Infidels, and pedophilia all of which were taught by Mohammad BY EXAMPLE! 
 
KKK;  The KKK is and has not been a serious threat to US citizens since WWI.  However, they have brought their hate to the US Senate.  As a result, we have the embedded cancer of our Welfare State.  There have been many Senators and state governors who were at least members of the KKK and some who were VERY high level leaders, I can't recall his name, the WV Senator who was in office almost "forever", Governor George Wallace, and many others.
 
Rusty:  US history actions to limit immigration is not limited to Muslims.  Orientals had strong limitations on immigration that was only eased because of the need for cheap labor to build the Transcontinental Railroad.  Hispanics were limited across the US until western migration due to the Gold Rush caused US Citizens to face all the Hispanics in Texas and California.  Native Americans did not immigrate to the US, but were forcefully absorbed.
 
Consider the saying "The only good Indian is a dead Indian".  This was actually practiced.  Natives who were forced to stay on "Reservations" were "provided" blankets that were Smallpox infected.  The natives had no immunity to that disease and died by the thousands, genocide.  This amounted to a religious sacrifice to the god of wealth/profit (access to the Gold).  we still sacrifice pre-born humans to the god of convenience (the god of no consequence sex)!
 
Jeff:  I'm still praying for you.
Tamara Wilhite Added Jun 11, 2018 - 6:00pm

Dino Manalis This response, "denounce extremism of all kinds", creates so many problems.
 
It minimizes the real world harm of Islam, from oppressing women to executing homosexuals and atheists to regular acts of terrorism around the world. Instead, it says "let's look at all religions as equally culpable and harmful, so Islam is no longer the focus".
 
The second problem is that it dismisses the fact that the problem is fundamentalist Islam. We aren't talking about a group of 500 weirdos in the desert when we discuss Islamic terrorism, oppression via Shariah law or other issues. ISIS, Al Shabab, Boko Haram, the Taliban, Islamic fundamentalists taking over in the Philippines and Indonesia ... this isn't a small unusual cult but a systematic problem built into the faith. By saying, "Oh, it is just the rare extremists", it denies reality, that the problem is fundamentalist Islam that needs to be reformed.
 
The odds a Muslim will become oppressive, whether endorsing terrorism or agreeing with forced veilings, is tied to their fundamentalism. The more religious, the more oppressive. No other faith does this ... it is Islam that needs a reformation to contextualize the violent verses, not anyone else. But by saying, "Oh, there's no problem with that perfect faith", you let Muslims get out of any responsibility to reform or even admit there is a problem.
 
And by saying, "It is all extremists" enables liberal secularists to go "Oh, and those pesky Christians who don't want to pay for abortions are equally bad, we need to spy, censor and be afraid of them". You're smearing the culture that ended slavery and invented universal women's rights and distracting from the culture that brought back sex slave markets for Yazidi girls and African slave markets in Libya. Instead, we get liberals focusing on a Christian boogeman after you've slurred them as equally scary, again, distracting from the real problem, the threat fundamentalist Islam poses to everyone's literal safety and human rights.
Dave Volek Added Jun 11, 2018 - 6:57pm
Tamara
There is a lot of truth to your post here.
 
By saying, "Oh, it is just the rare extremists", it denies reality, that the problem is fundamentalist Islam that needs to be reformed.
 
The reformation is a job for Muslims, not for the rest of us. If you go to TED talks and type in "Muslim feminist", you will find lots of Muslim speakers who don't fit the stereotype of ISIS fighters. There is a lively debate within Islam, much like the leaders of the Christian reformation of John Hus, Martin Luther, and John Calvin a few centuries back. 
 
 
Joe Chiang Added Jun 11, 2018 - 9:08pm
Good point Dave.  If there were Muslims out there who did NOT agree with the terrorists, they need to speak up and have their voices heard.  Common Law says "silence is consent"!  I'm not hearing anything from the VAST MAJORITY of Muslims, so I have to believe they AGREE with the terrorists, but are just afraid to say so openly.
Dave Volek Added Jun 11, 2018 - 9:19pm
Joe
If you are waiting for Foxx News to put on those moderate Muslim analysts in their lineup of talking heads, you will be waiting a long time.
 
I listen to CBC news as my main source. You will often find Muslims denouncing terrorism. I have even heard that some mosques identify the "time bombs" in their congregations and encourage the authorities to put some surveillance on them.
 
Go to TED talks. There's lots of good speakers out there: Muslims criticizing their own religion. They are not silent.
 
And there is a reformation happening in Islam. It's kind of exciting to be an observer.
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 11, 2018 - 9:27pm
Joe C. I was only considering religions that have sufficient followers to be relevant.   Long dead religions are not relevant. 
 
You need to open your history books on the KKK.  They were active during the civil right movement in the 60's.   The KKK has been the enforcement arm of the Democratic party in the southern states.  FDR appointed a KKK member to the Supreme Court that put the wall up between church and state that was never intended.  The last Congressmen associated with the KKK died in 2010 and was a mentor to Hillary Clinton.  
Dave Volek Added Jun 11, 2018 - 9:40pm
Thomas
 
You are making specious claims of the modern Democratic Party. It has changed a lot in the past two generations. It has weeded out its KKK elements, and these elements now prefer the R party. The R's seem to have won the support of white voters of the south.
 
Religions evolve, political parties evolve, businesses evolve, and even people evolve. Nothing is static.
 
Tamara Wilhite Added Jun 12, 2018 - 12:24am
 Dave Volek The fact that moderate Muslims are as prone to being killed by the fundamentalists as non-Muslims is proof Islam isn't peaceful. And yes, I know that it is these Muslims who are the most numerous victims of the fundamentalists.
 
It is also proof that the religion is NOT peaceful at its core, when the faith's fundamentalists so often kill literally everyone else. Around a thousand terrorist attacks a year when you include Sunni rolling grenades into Shia mosques and vice versa.
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 12, 2018 - 8:42am
Dave V.  "On August 12, 1937, Franklin D. Roosevelt called Hugo Black into his office, ... Black's affiliation with the Ku Klux Klan was ephemeral and irrelevant to his political career. After becoming a member of the Klan on September 13, 1923, he marched in a few parades and spoke in meetings. " http://www.nisk.k12.ny.us/fdr/ideas/portfolio/vandersee/vandersee.html
 
KKK congressmen Robert C. Byrd was a recruiter for the Klan while in his 20s and 30s  Died 2010 as a congressmen    Hugo BlackEdward L. JacksonRice W. MeansGeorge GordonJohn Tyler MorganEdmund PettusJohn Brown Gordon,  are congressmens and KKK members  see Wikipedia.
 
I think the involvement of the KKK in resisting the Civil Rights movement is so huge that I am not going to try to present it.
Dave Volek Added Jun 12, 2018 - 11:50am
Thomas
 
You win. The KKK is the core of today's Democratic Party. Outwardly they pretend to support Republican, but they are an essential cog of the D machinery. Not only that, the KKK has fooled most of the African-Americans in thinking their vote should go to D. Pretend the KKK is  somewhere else, throw the niggers a few bones to placate them, get their votes, and take control. Yep, those KKK guys are pretty smart.
 
 
Dave Volek Added Jun 12, 2018 - 11:56am
Tamara
 
If we go back 500 years, Christians were killing each other in the same way. The first break away sect, the Cathars, were hunted down by the Catholic Church.
 
Somehow Christianity got over this "bad side" of religion. Islam will eventually do it as well. It may not happen in our lifetime, but if we are looking closely enough, we can see signs of a reformation happening.
 
It is not our job to bring about that reformation.
 
But if you want to equate all Muslims with ISIS fighters, I guess that is your prerogative.
 
 
 
 
 
Tamara Wilhite Added Jun 12, 2018 - 12:46pm
Dave Volek It is a moral obligation to not allow moderate Muslims to engage in a "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy to deny that there is a problem, to deny the need to reform.
 
The world needs honest discussion and debate on the issue. Muslims will deny and hide from the need to reform if we pretend it is OK, deny the need. Challenging the culture and demand that it reform as a condition for admittance to the broader world will bring reform generations sooner - that's good for Muslims and the world.
 
It is also unfair for the rest of the world to be told to take Muslim migrants, let in Muslim immigrants, but don't you dare require them to check the violent fundamentalists or refuse to tolerate Shariah law in the West.
Tamara Wilhite Added Jun 12, 2018 - 12:47pm
No, I am not equating all Muslims with ISIS fighters. But I do find it an interesting act of hypocrisy when liberals say let's hate all men, hate all whites, blame all Christians but don't you dare criticize fundamentalist Islam  when that has a far greater share of that population than any the liberals like to assign collective blame to.

A survey has revealed more than a quarter of Muslims in France follow hardline Islam and almost half support Sharia law.
It also unearthed that more than 14 per cent of 15 to 25-year-olds believe Islamic Sharia law carries more weight than that of their place of residence.
http://www.wnd.com/2016/09/french-muslims-support-hardline-islam-shariah/#JbeMHhOpIKxtTI30.99
 
In the United States, a 2011 survey found 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified and 1% say they are often justified in these circumstances.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 12, 2018 - 1:40pm
Dave V. the KKK has been replaced by Antifa.  Antifa destruction of property and breaking heads has occurred in Democratic cities with the police told to stand down by the mayors.  This is what happened in the Civil Rights period in the south.  The base line of the Democratic party has not changed, they believe in a class society.  They believe that the government class make better decisions then the voters.   
 
By definition a lower class are less human, have less rights.  This is consistent with the actions of the KKK and Antifa and the government response. 
 
The opens border policy is to get the votes for long term control of government.  Welfare to the poor as Rome figured out gets votes but also welfare is ever increasing because the present level is a RIGHT.  Health care they believe has less inflationary tendencies but the History of National Health Care is spotty at best.  The citizens are not being convinced to vote Democratic to the levels needed.
 
Open borders bring in citizens that do not understand liberty and have a lower expectation.  
TexasLynn Added Jun 12, 2018 - 3:10pm
Dave >> The world needs honest discussion and debate on the issue. Muslims will deny and hide from the need to reform if we pretend it is OK, deny the need.
 
We Christians are not without our historical sins.  But that is no excuse to go back centuries to try and create moral equivalence today.  It's a non-sequitur.
 
Dave >> Somehow Christianity got over this "bad side" of religion. Islam will eventually do it as well.
 
I'm not that convinced that (reform) will happen... ever.  We Christians had an advantage the Muslims do not; a Lord who taught love... to the point of loving even your enemies.  Mohammed taught no such thing.  He taught the exact opposite; to hate and to subjugate and finally kill your enemies.
 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 
As usual, Tamara is right on the money...
 
TW >> The world needs honest discussion and debate on the issue. Muslims will deny and hide from the need to reform if we pretend it is OK, deny the need.
 
Exactly, IF Islam is a "religion of peace" why would you ever change that?  Now if that is a lie... that's a different matter entirely.
 
Admitting the truth would encourage reform... though to be honest with you, I don't think reform of Islam is possible by it's evil nature.  One does not reform evil... one contains it.  (See communism and fascism)
 
TW >> But I do find it an interesting act of hypocrisy when liberals say let's hate all men, hate all whites, blame all Christians but don't you dare criticize fundamentalist Islam...
 
The left is ascribing to the adage "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" in their war on Christians.  They are fools.  Fundamentalist Mohammedans would turn on them in a second once they had dealt with those of us who see them for what they are.  Our blood would hardly be cold before the infidel left was put against the same wall we were.
 
And where would the "moderate Muslims" be in all of this.  Exactly where they are now... inconsequential.
 
TW >> In the United States, a 2011 survey found 7% say suicide bombings are sometimes justified and 1% say they are often justified in these circumstances.
 
Pew asked the same type question in Muslim countries in 2014... (civilian suicide bombings often or sometimes justified) ...
♦ Gaza - 62%
♦ West Bank - 32%
♦ Lebanon - 29%
♦ Egypt - 24%
♦ Turkey - 18%
♦ Jordan - 15%
♦ Tunisia - 5%
 
Do these equate to gunmen and bombers?  No.  But it does equate to their supporters.  And with those percentages; we're talking 100s of millions of "radical Muslims".  Signs of reform?  I don't think so.
 
Rusty Smith Added Jun 12, 2018 - 4:18pm
One of the huge problems I have with allowing more Muslim immigrants from hostile places is their high rate of support for those among them who commit terrorism.  
 
There are plenty of Muslims where I live and work and I think most wouldn't dream of blowing themselves up to kill a buss full of school children, but almost to a person those I ask consider the suicide bombers who do brave freedom fighters.
 
Most of the Muslims I know have strong extended family and community ties which I respect but I also hear their complaints.  The Many of the Muslims I know say they don't personally agree with terrorism, but are shamed into donating one to support it by their community.  I don't' care who they are, if they support terrorism for any reason I think we're better off without them.
Dave Volek Added Jun 12, 2018 - 4:29pm
Lynn & Tamara
 
There is lots of discussion happening. Go to TED talks and search for "Muslim feminist". You will find lots of Muslims speakers in the process of reforming their religion. It is an "honest discussion and debate." But I don't think you want to that because it is not in your comfort zone. The Christian apologists are not the ultimate source of knowledge of what is happening in the Muslim world.
 
There is indeed a minority of Muslims supporting terrorism. By the same token, there is a minority of Americans who would cheer if a nuclear bomb were dropped on North Korea or Iran. When Americans cheer, that is good. But when Muslims, it is not good.
 
 
Thomas
Nice duck of the challenge that the KKK are no longer part of the Democratic Party. You just can't admit you are ever wrong.
 
I don't know much about Antifa. From what I do know, I can't see them harboring the same principles as KKK. So it's hard to see how Antifa is replacing KKK in any way. 
 
 
 
 
Joe Chiang Added Jun 12, 2018 - 4:53pm
The history of Muslim killing Muslim goes back almost 1000 years.  It continues today.  The fighting between misguided Christians lasted for maybe 100 years, with Irish catholics fighting English Protestants the most recent and a lot of anger if not actual fighting even today?  
 
The KKK, like the Flower Child 1960s radicals have morphed from murder and lynchings to education and legislation.  The effect is making virtual slaves of those who do not agree with their philosophy.
Dave Volek Added Jun 12, 2018 - 5:24pm
Joe
 
Relatively speaking, Islam was a lot more peaceful than Christianity from about 800 to 1700 AD. 
 
Most of the hippies eventually joined the establishment. They got jobs and bought houses. There is very little of that counter culture left. As best as I understand Antifa, they are not children of the former hippies.
 
If the radicals are indeed running the show, how do you explain the election of Mr. Trump?
 
 
 
TexasLynn Added Jun 12, 2018 - 5:36pm
Dave >> You will find lots of Muslims speakers in the process of reforming their religion.
 
To save time, I concede the point that there are Muslims who seek reform of their religion.  I also concede there are "lots" of them.
 
So... speaking of comfort zones; where is yours when it comes to the math in all of this.
 
Do you think "lots" in the case of reformers equates to 100s of millions?  Because I don't.  Not even close, not even 1 million.
 
But; "lots" does equate to hundreds of millions of Muslims who do support the radicals, who do say it is OK to bomb and kill civilians for the cause of Islam. 
 
Now… still doing the math, I would say that there are lots of Muslims (also 100s of millions) who would advocate for the reformers over the terrorists.  There is just one problem with this group… they aren’t doing anything.  They don’t hold that conviction strongly enough, they are scared, whatever, they choose not to act.
 
If these definitions of "lots" are true (and they are); logically, where does this relegate the "lots" of reformers?  I'll say it again, based on numbers, they are inconsequential.
 
Dave >> It is an "honest discussion and debate." But I don't think you want to that because it is not in your comfort zone.
 
I have conceded that they (reformers) exist.  And I concede I don't pay them much attention because I consider them as inconsequential.  Almost as inconsequential today as the KKK.
 
It has nothing to do with my comfort zone or echo chamber and everything to do with math.  When driving the direction of Islam, I can give my attention to the million or I can give my attention to the 1 (in reference to how much the reformers are outnumbered).  Which is going to prevail?  Hmmmmm.
 
Dave >> The Christian apologists are not the ultimate source of knowledge of what is happening in the Muslim world.
 
You got that right.  What is happening in the Muslim world is driven by the Muslims who act and in what numbers.  And those who are acting are the terrorists and the millions who support them.  There are a handful (lots) who are trying to reform; and the rest?  Sitting on their hands.
 
Christian apologists pointing out the Emperor has no clothes (Islam is not peaceful in doctrine or practice) may not be politically correct or what you want to be true; but it's just the truth and the math of the situation.
 
Dave >> There is indeed a minority of Muslims supporting terrorism.
 
Yes, they are in the minority, but they still equal hundreds of millions of actors.  Hundreds of millions (though a minority) doing something (supporting terror) versus "lots" doing something different (reforming) and the rest doing nothing equals a radical, barbaric, terroristic Islam.  Exactly what we have today, and will have for the foreseeable future.
 
Dave >> By the same token, there is a minority of Americans who would cheer if a nuclear bomb were dropped on North Korea or Iran.
 
It's about the math again... that number (Americans wanting bombs dropped) is inconsequential.
 
Inconsequential when supporting evil (as in the American example) is a good thing.
 
Inconsequential when apposing evil (as with the reformist Muslims) is a bad thing.
Joe Chiang Added Jun 12, 2018 - 10:13pm
Dave, just checked out Ted Talks.  he seems as conservative as Opera.  It looks like as much depth to his shows as floor wax on a floor.  For example I believe EVERY alternative energy show gave Climate Change as the reason for the need.  Education looked like the New World Order Education Praise reports.  Terrorism looked like it was discussing everything EXCEPT Radical Islam. Even the Islam shows looked like praise reports on how wonderful Islam is.  I did not see "Muslim Feminists".  But this did not look like serious reporting on the problems within Islam.  It looked like one sided coverage of each topic.  That makes me think it is very liberal, even to have Gates doing a show!
Thomas Sutrina Added Jun 12, 2018 - 10:49pm
Dave V., you want to see white sheets over the KKK members and pointed white hats covering their faces.   Just look at a youtube of Antifa and at their official dress.  The local and state police looked the other direction when the KKK was enforcing second class citizenship of blacks.  Then look at the local police on the side line when Antifa enforced sanctioned speech not the speech of second class citizens. 
 
I pointed out that KKK ideals are still accepted by the Democrat Party, just go to youtube and listen to VP Biden with his famous slips.
 
The duck test, "Suppose you see a bird walking around in a farm yard. This bird has no label that says 'duck'. But the bird certainly looks like a duck. Also, he goes to the pond and you notice that he swims like a duck. Then he opens his beak and quacks like a duck. Well, by this time you have probably reached the conclusion that the bird is a duck, whether he's wearing a label or not."  
Rusty Smith Added Jun 13, 2018 - 9:52am
Dave Volek I think you've severely misjudged most Americans.  I travel the country quite a lot and I think you'd have to look hard to find Americans who would approve of bombing Korea or any other country with Nuclear bombs unless they used Nuclear bombs on us first, and even then lots of America would want us to refrain.
 
Don't' forget the US often uses there military to do things the leadership thinks are in the US's best interest, but the US has had no interest in expanding their empire by taking over other countries for many generations.  The idea is foreign to native born Americans.  None of the countries we've fought in, even those we conquered like Japan or freed like Kwait have ever been ruled or even taxed as reparations for the cost of the war.  Instead the US usually pours money and resources into them in an attempt to help them rebuild peacefully.
 
Arab countries on the other hand seem to constantly want to impose their religious values on other people including their own neighbors and are constantly killing each other in various parts of the world in an attempt to take over the parts of the world they don't currently rule.  
Rusty Smith Added Jun 13, 2018 - 10:00am
Joe Chiang I don't agree that the KKK has morphed into anything that is enslaving anyone in my part of the country.  I know they have morphed into groups that are less identifiable but that is because they were almost driven out of existence by the vast majority of America that grew to despise what they stood for and the way they went about trying to advance their agenda.
 
Today they are mostly very unhappy groups of people who try to live life apart from the rest of America because they know they're despised and rejected whenever they speak their mind in public. 
 
They have NO current influence on the public in general past the occasional public displays they  put on which remind the rest of America how much we appreciate the fact that they usually stay in their holes where we don't have to see or hear from them.
Rusty Smith Added Jun 13, 2018 - 10:04am
There are Muslim organizations like Care that have tried to change the public perception of Islam and Muslims in general but even the Obama Administration saw right through them.  
 
They were crying about how they were oppressed an at the same time actively collecting money for and supporting Muslim terrorists.
 
And those were the Muslims that were outwardly trying to make us believe they were changing the face of Islam.  
Dave Volek Added Jun 13, 2018 - 12:23pm
Joe
 
TED TALKS has lots of speakers on many issues. Some I agree with, some not. For this particular thread, I was trying to direct people to listen to Muslim feminists. Whether you agree with them or not, I was trying to point out that there is a reform movement within Islam. This movement is challenging the "standard" version of Islam.
 
Around 500 years ago, John Hus, Martin Luther, and John Calvin challenged the standard version of Christianity. These men spawned new movements, which eventually resulted in a lot of bloodshed. Had they and their followers not taken the stand that they did, we would still be subject to a obviously corrupt version of Christianity. In the end, Europe had a Christian reformation, which included reforming the antagonistic religion to a significant degree. But it took about 400 years before the various sects learned how to work together in peace.
 
Islam is going through the same process today.
 
 
Dave Volek Added Jun 13, 2018 - 12:29pm
Lynn
If we were to do the math 500 years ago, the Church should have hunted down those reforming Christian sects and gained total submission (and it tried). Back then, most Europeans were Catholic and were very accepting of the Catholic Church's stand to wage war against these new sects.
 
So it seems strange that the math allows you to discount today's reformers of Islam, yet the same math of 500 years ago said there should only be one Christian sect, and one that was obviously very corrupt.
 
 
Joe Chiang Added Jun 13, 2018 - 12:38pm
Rusty, I appreciate your point.  Slavery, as an institution, was abolished with the US Civil War.  But if you consider what slavery is, no or virtually no income, living in hovels, broken families as mother or father might get sold, etc.  Today we have government programs that force poor people to stay poor.  They are financially punished if they try and raise themselves out if poverty.  Thus we have generational welfare families that I consider the equivalence of poverty in slavery.  These poor live in ghetto, if inner city and reservations if Native and I believe these equate to slave hovels.  These welfare programs demand broken homes or benefits are cut.  This accomplishes the same effect as selling a parent and leaving a one parent family.  The reasons may differ, but the effect of slave life remains the same.  This was, in my humble opinion, NOT by accident.  
 
Senator Robert Byrd, from 1953 - 2010, was a KKK was leader of the Democratic Party in the Senate and very active KKK member.  He later recanted his allegiance to the KKK, but I have always wondered if that was just public for political purposes or a real change of heart.  No matter, here is a link to many of the KKK in political office:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan_members_in_United_States_politics (this is wikipedia and may not be accurate, but should be a good start).
TexasLynn Added Jun 13, 2018 - 4:00pm
Dave,
I think your right... probability wise the reformers of the Christian faith should have perished at the hands of the corrupt.  It's almost as if divine will intervened. :)  Go figure.
 
Simply put... the odds are against the reformers of Islam.  Another religion overcoming such odds in the past, does not change that fact.
 
BUT... I did touch on a bigger problem the Islamic reformers have that Christian reformers did not.  Their founder.
 
The reformers of Christianity were trying to get back to the original intent and doctrine of their founder, Christ.
 
The terrorists are the ones following the original intent and doctrine of their founder, Mohammed.  So Islamic reformers must introduce that their founder was either 1) wrong, 2) meant something else than what he said or 3) needs to evolve with the times. That is a much steeper hill to climb on top of all the numbers against them.
 
It would be easier (and more logical) to just advocate that Mohammed was an evil bastard and it would be better for all if mankind abandoned his ways entirely.
 
To... reiterate... Islamic reformers have many, many things working against them.
 
♦ Those working for the evil of Islam outweigh those working for reform by astronomical numbers.
 
♦ Reform of Christianity required the embracing of its founder’s teachings; reform of Islam requires the rejection of its founder’s teachings.
 
♦ If there was divine intervention involved in the reform of Christianity, Islam does not have that advantage (there being no Allah or he being not divine)
Dave Volek Added Jun 14, 2018 - 1:15am
Lynn
 
You have made your points very well with clarity and good logic. I still don't agree. 
 
The proof will be another generation from now and see how far the Muslim reformers have taken their cause. But it is their battle. You and I are only observers. 
 
 
Tamara Wilhite Added Jun 15, 2018 - 8:05pm
Dave Volek I respect Wafa Sultan, Ayan Hirsi Ali and others.
TED talks by those so-called feminists are too often "let's lie about Islam being feminist and empowering to encourage people to convert". 
Islam gave Muslim women a few rights per the Code of Hammurabi a few centuries behind everyone else. And fewer rights in many other aspects.
TexasLynn Added Jun 15, 2018 - 10:39pm
Dave >> But it is their battle. You and I are only observers.
 
Only if they succeed... otherwise we are only victims.