Thoughts on Truth

My Recent Posts

Being a fan of truth I am always interested in those who purport to deal in it. I often learn alot.  I am especially interested in those who think they know it. Among those I generally find many that feel sure that you do not, even though they dont  know what you think.


This brings us to our newly returned member Ryan Messano.    If I was to do a count of the number of adhominems in his posts it would be impressive. Moreover, the liberal use of logical fallacies abound. From ad hominem to red herring to strawman, and then to some more advanced forms.  In this article I will only support my assertion on a few examples, but if I had the time i could easily support my assertion on a much larger list.  Anyway, extensive use of logical fallacies, almost by definition, clearly cannot be truth oriented.


But let us move from general observations to specifics. Early on in our relationship, we had this interaction:


RM:”Are you Muslim, Mustafa?

Not sure why you chose to identify yourself as uninformed and corrupt,”


MK:”Are you suggesting that the historical Mustafa Kemal was uninformed and corrupt?"



I have repeated this question more than 8 times. Initially his response was  a varation on this.


RM:”:"Please keep your mouth shut on politics, and don’t vote until you take your happy self to the library and read five biographies of the Founders."



Evidently, he has this idea that if you havent read “5 biographies of the founders” that you are not fit to talk with. Athough it  is well known that such  preconditions have no relevance to the veracity of ones argument,  and constitute classical appeal to authority and appeal from accomplishment fallacies. After much wrangling I  succumbed and admitted that I had indeed read 5 biographies of the founders. But now the goal posts  have moved and we get



RM: “That said, you’ve been told numerous times, that if you want to play Socrates, you need to lost the five biographies of the Founders you’ve read.  You’ve steadfastly refused to do so, but insist on continuing to ask questions. “


That is, now I need to lost (list) them. I suppose if/when I list them we will wrangle over his opinion of the quality of them.  I suspect the goal posts may never stay put and we will never return to the topic.  Indeed, we have strayed completely away from my question;


MK:”Are you suggesting that the historical Mustafa Kemal was uninformed and corrupt?"


 Of course, on might suspect that is actually the purpose.

This interaction continues for some time and it is indeed quite dreary, so lets move on.


In his article about Subjective and Objective  he says



RM:We already saw one WB regular get triggered and write a post alleging that those of us who tell the truth are aiming to put folks in concentration camps."


and I asked him


MK: That is a strong claim.  Can you support it?  With evidence?

If not, then you have just told  a lie.




Again, he refuses to answer my question, and  instead he continues with the “ 5 biographies” block and adds 



RM: You just asked a question four times that nearly every one here on WB knows the answer to. Try to use your brain and think.


Any further repeats of your inane questions, and any comments without those biographies will be deleted.  It’s sad you refuse to learn without force.



Of course, most know that appeal to “everyone knows” is another logical fallacy.

But now it gets more interesting;



RM:”Few can handle direct confrontation over their beliefs.”


“If your ideas cannot stand up to brutal and scathing criticism, then maybe your beliefs aren't worth having? “


RM quoting  Giffiths:”“Harsh and direct disagreement places thought under pressure.”




and then



RM:” Not every opinion is equal, and those lacking an elementary comprehension of the past are not fit to be allowed in a conversation.”


and I responded with what I hope you  agree is not even “brutal” or “scathing”


MK: “Are you talking about me or yourself.?


I have expressed few opinions while your posts are filled with them, almost all unsupported ones.


And when I ask politely for you to support one of your rather strong claims I get  " 5 biographies" .


Im trying to imagine what Socrates would think of your response

" 5 biographies" everytime someone asks you to support your claim.


what dialectic is that part of?”






Now, he is deleting my posts. Of course, he has that right.   






Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 12:58pm
One of the most reasonably misguided posts I’ve ever read.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 1:02pm
The reason you can’t reason is because your reason is perverted. 
Can you list your psychotropic drug use history is, and what your opinion of all sex outside of marriage is, including porn and masturbation?  
Thank you.
failing to learn history is to fail to learn the present and future.
”If you don't know history, you don’t know anything, you are like a leaf that doesn’t know its part of a tree”
Michael Crichton
Your logical fallacy assertions are all false, and are a result of your failure to grasp histury and her lessons, and subsequent attempts to use sophistry and logical fallacy assertions to mask it.
Dino Manalis Added Jun 8, 2018 - 2:35pm
 We want the truth; the whole truth; and nothing but the truth!
Bill H. Added Jun 8, 2018 - 2:37pm
Mustafa - You know that you have a person spun-up when you get multiple responses in a row.
It only took 4 minutes.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 2:46pm
Newsflash: Generally, half truths and sophistry stir up indignation, Bill.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 8, 2018 - 3:02pm
Good one. I think that you are one of the most reasonable people here and have a vision that goes beyond -isms. Keep on and don't waste your time with one-track-minds like Ryboy who can cite n historic quotes but doesn't seem to have an OWN POV which reflects today's societies.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 8, 2018 - 3:06pm
We want the truth; the whole truth; and nothing but the truth!
Please do me a favor and define "truth". There are several definitions, a spiritual one, a realistic one (what we see and hear is what we get) and a philosophical one.
Which one do you mean ?
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 3:15pm
Stone, you are a bona fide sophist.
“Man is the measure of all things”
That was the Athenian sophists credo, and it’s yours.  It led them to disaster, and it will lead you there too.   
Bill H. Added Jun 8, 2018 - 3:16pm
In this day and age, the truth to many is simply what they want and like to hear. In many cases, it is what they get from sources who know exactly what they want. Now we can simply write off what we find uncomfortable as "Fake News".
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 3:40pm
And if you don’t have a moral compass, which Bill, Stone, and Nustafa so not, combined with a gross incomprehension of the past, you are liable to be deceived.  True for all three of you.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 3:40pm
*Mustafa do
Dave Volek Added Jun 8, 2018 - 3:40pm
Bill H
This more or less summarizes what a basic psychology textbook said: We tend to gravitate towards knowledge that supports our particular perspective.
It was interesting that you kept score of your interactions. I'm not sure of how much more time you want to waste.
Neil Lock Added Jun 8, 2018 - 3:59pm
Dave: No, what Mustafa is doing here is really important. For all of us.
Look at what Ryan Messano said to Mustafa on his counter-thread, "Objective versus Subjective:" It’s sad you refuse to learn without force.
Need I say more?
Stone-Eater Added Jun 8, 2018 - 4:04pm
We tend to gravitate towards knowledge that supports our particular perspective.
I think that says it all, me included. But I try to be not so ignorant to block out other POV's. It's to others to decide if I succeed or not. Subjective....
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 4:29pm
The libertine hangout isn’t here.  None of you appricing of Mustafa has any virtue to speak of, and you are all badly deluded.  You are all experts at being deceived and deceiving.  You all are full of hubris and arrogance and hate the truth and love your lies.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 4:29pm
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 4:29pm
Dave Volek Added Jun 8, 2018 - 4:58pm
There's no one right answer here. I think we handle Ryan in our way. I have challenged him and found his responses illogical and vile. I have chosen to put him on my "do not read list."
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 5:01pm
You see as you are, Dave. 
You have an impenetrable pride caused by your corrupt habits which makes truth appear false, and falsehoods appear true.  Pretty scary.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 8, 2018 - 5:17pm
You have an inferiority complex that has turned into megalomania. You should search for professional help but this ain't the place for that. There are drugs to calm you down. Please do us that favor before you decide to plan some Christian terrorist attacks LOL
Stone-Eater Added Jun 8, 2018 - 5:23pm
BTW: You can cite as many things around here you got from Google or anywhere else but remember on thing: Theoretical knowledge doesn't make a man wise. When you don't know life, you dont know anything.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 5:33pm
Stow it, Stone.  Your psychobabble means nothing to me.  Until you are virtuous, your opinion will remain meaningless. 
Stone-Eater Added Jun 8, 2018 - 5:40pm
I don't give a shit about your opinion, really. I rather listen to my Parakeet. 
Stone-Eater Added Jun 8, 2018 - 5:42pm
BTW: If ever I see a comment of yours on one of my articles I will delete it. Why ? Because it would ruin the whole thing. May your god lead you to more tolerance and understanding. Period.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 5:58pm
Crazy libertines calling me crazy.
Stone, you may have noticed, I never comment on your threads.  There is a reason for that.
Pardero Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:04pm
Mustafa Kemal,
I admire your tenacity. It is my hope that Ryan Messano will settle down and realize that his judgements were hasty, inaccurate, and unfair. 
Ironically, you'd be the first to give him another chance, if he wished to be reasonable and persuasive, instead of strident and judgemental.
It is a shame that such a motivated and well read personality, sees most of the world as his adversaries, and treats them as such.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:07pm
Diplomacy is a good thing, but some people don't have "la finesse de l'entendre"....
Bill H. Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:07pm
I suspect a damaging childhood may have sowed his seeds of anger.
Judging by his performance in the City Council video, I don't ever see him as becoming reasonable and persuasive.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:09pm
Good. Let's keep it that way.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:36pm
A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool's back
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:37pm
Also, those who refuse to learn and be informed of wisdom, are simply used to inform others with. The choice is yours.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:38pm
Pardero, Neville Chamberlain was a wonderful and a diplomatic man.  And where did that get him? 
James Travil Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:47pm
MassAnal is a depraved piece of shit, there is absolutely no reason to waste time on the cowardly pinhead. Good article Mustafa, very damning of the perverted slimeball. 
Jeff Michka Added Jun 8, 2018 - 6:58pm
Nice one, Mustafa,,,it's set off and angered Ryan Messianic Moron, and said something about truth, RM is attempting to hijack for his own little perverted website that draws only suckers wanting their hatreds confirmed by something "comfortable."  Ryan has bad mouthed your name sake, made all sorts of statements about  it, but never acknowledged Mustafa Kemal was not only a secular leader but a real Turkish hero of which you should be proud.  Kemal clobbered the Brits and French at the Dardanelles 103 years ago, and in the process, established a political power base that formed modern, secular Turkey.  Keep at Ryan!
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 7:01pm
7 on 1.  The odds will start to be even when there are 1,000 of you.
James Travil Added Jun 8, 2018 - 7:04pm
It's quite the opposite lying Ryan, one of us is equal to a thousand punks of your ilk. Remember, I was serving the nation in the Gulf War while you were hiding in your mama's basement playing video games with your butt buddies. No comparison. 
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 7:06pm
You aren't worthy of the Founders sacrifice, James.  They would have never fought the Revolution if they knew they'd be fighting for you seven. 
James Travil Added Jun 8, 2018 - 7:09pm
There are a lot more of us than seven you fool, not that seven is a bad number. The Magnificent Seven! LOL! 
MEFOBILLS Added Jun 8, 2018 - 8:24pm
In the old days, Taverns served as a place where people worked out their differences.  Alcohol helped lower inhibitions and allowed even the more meek among us to assert themselves.  
However, if somebody breached a certain level, they would be escorted out of the tavern, perhaps violently.  
Name calling was done in good humor, and crowd intelligence kept things on an even keel.   A full escalation would be to a duel, so this kept a lid on people going "full asshole."
The internet is a re-capitulation of the Tavern, but it is lacking in social constraints.  People go full ass-hole all the time, engaging in behaviors they would not in real life.  
There was also the crier corner, a place where people could just speak, and if somebody wanted to listen they would hang out.  If people didn't hang out, then the crier would know he was wasting his time.
In the Tavern, there was an implicit understanding of the intelligence and veracity of speakers.  Some people command respect by virtue of their accomplishments and bearing.  Others are known fools, and are unable to command respect.
Unfortunately, the internet accords fools and those who are accomplished the same level.  Fools who speak often and loudly and repeatedly are a problem on internet forums, gaining unearned space that they would not get in reality-land.  
Some advanced thinkers like Paul Craig Roberts no longer allow comments on their website for this reason; too many fools, flamers, and ass-holes prevent civil discourse.    
The first internet site that is able to replicate the Tavern would go a long way toward resurrecting civil society.  
Ryan Messano Added Jun 8, 2018 - 8:28pm
Somewhat agreed, MefoBills. Virtue isn't recognized in today's society.  This is the root of a good speaker and message. 
Jeff Michka Added Jun 8, 2018 - 9:34pm
It's kinda o you, Ryan, are "collecting, and seem to channel this us against them bullshit and why?  Because o.f your fanatical crapola, some WBers have little tolerance for your over the top intolerance and bigotry.  You're even keeping "score," so how many you got?  Lessee, ol TraitorLynn, MOFOSWILL, and?  Is it they love your courage and faith, or are "equal followers" of your intolerance and bigotry or maybe your fundamental extremist politics?  Wow, you turned down the chance to attack my family, you sick or something?  If so, don't bother recovering.
Flying Junior Added Jun 8, 2018 - 9:44pm
That was cool learning about Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.
Every time I bump into Mustafa I end up learning something new.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Jun 8, 2018 - 10:09pm
MEFOBILLS Added Jun 8, 2018 - 10:19pm
Michka is proving my point:
Mefoswill, TraitorLynn... then he goes on to expound on intolerance and bigotry.  
EXPAT Added Jun 8, 2018 - 10:32pm
physician, heal thyself

phrase of physician



before attempting to correct others, make sure that you aren't guilty of the same faults

EXPAT Added Jun 8, 2018 - 10:32pm
What is the meaning of “Physician, heal thyself” in Luke 4:23 ...


It was then that Jesus made reference to a proverb of the day: “Physician, heal thyself” (verse 23, KJV). Jesus' audience in Nazareth reacted in amazement to ...
EXPAT Added Jun 8, 2018 - 10:34pm
Sorry about the text format. I can't fix it!
Pardero Added Jun 9, 2018 - 1:45am
Jeff Michka,
You are proving yourself the fool that MEFOBILLS described. 
Neither TexasLynn or MEFOBILLS have fully endorsed Ryan Messano's abrasive style, and I don't expect them to, until he is willing to debate and discuss in a civil manner. 
You have proven that you are incapable of adding to the discussion and should remove yourself from it.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 9, 2018 - 1:57am
Remember Phinehas and his graceful style, Pardero?
What about the graceful style that Patton and Churchill used to describe Hitler?
Can you explain what you admired about Christ’s graceful style in the temple with a whip?  
Flying Junior Added Jun 9, 2018 - 2:01am
Nice Bible study, EXPAT.  I was very interested, so I asked the  Great Gazoogol if he could find me the thoughts of J. Vernon McGee on this very important passage.
The great expositor tells us that immediately following this adventure in Nazareth, Jesus moved his, "headquarters," to Capernaum.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 9, 2018 - 2:03am
I wonder if the libertines understand that “physician heal thyself” is the response of men like them to hearing the truth long ago? 
opher goodwin Added Jun 9, 2018 - 4:33am
Mustafa - he's not worth the trouble. One brain cell and it's not connected. All you get is opinionated static that comes out as vitriolic garbage.
Kurt Bresler Added Jun 9, 2018 - 6:04am
Mustafa,  I think this would have been better named.  Something like ...knock down...drag out... with Ryan M.
I am to the belief that most of you guys enjoy the sparring, beats being miserable by yourself.. don't it.  lol
Stone-Eater Added Jun 9, 2018 - 7:38am
This is getting boring....bye ! ;)
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 9, 2018 - 9:16am
Ryan and the rest,
I struggled a bit in posting this article because I really dont like personal attacks
and the subject of this article is the truth related to an individual.
And I have spent some time today asking myself why I wrote it.
Let me begin by stating that I dont care if anyone is abusive or uses foul language. It has never bothered me.  I have no problem with full contact interaction. In fact, i prefer it.
As to why I wrote this article: I have observed this remarkable coincide of
arrogance and ignorance which always makes my antenna stand up. But when you combine it with authoritarianism and some tyranny, it really makes me pay attention. And when you add  a pompous claim to truth and wisdom  like a little cherry on top, it makes me absolutely hysterical with laughter.  
Moreover, such a personality who is unwilling to support any of his claims and responds with “ 5 biographies” as if Socrates would think that is anything but laughable, made me want to see what this character was really made of, but then he started blocking my comments. That’s when I decided I had to act.
 When I read MEFOBILLS  comment
“the first internet site that is able to replicate the Tavern would go a long way toward resurrecting civil society.  “
one of things I first thought was that if Ryan was to pull that shit where I hang out he wouldnt last a day.  Somebody would literally knock some sense in him, or stuff a pistol in his face. 
Dialectic: As I understand it, a dialectic is  framework/format where discourse can be had with the objective of attaining truth.  In this sense it is not a debate, nor an argument in the angry sense, but a mutual search for the truth.  When one person makes a declarative statement, if that statement is not agreed on by the parties, then it is natural to ask for support for that statement. Responding with insults or blocks such as “5 biographies” is clearly adialectic. As I said, such responses do not bother me, but instead offer stark contrast in pretensions of the interest in truth.
I come here to both learn and share. I certainly dont come here to tell other people what to think. That is again adialectic. I have learned alot from the people at WB and that has nothing to do with whether we agree on anything. In fact, to my mind, it is disagreement which is the source for development. Not all practice a dialectic of any sort,  but we have many different stripes here. I think its kinda nice.
Ryan, of course you have a right not to participate in  a dialectical search for the truth, but then I have the right to have a little fun at your expense since you claim to know truth and wisdom. 
As for Pardero’s comment
“Mustafa Kemal, 
Ironically, you'd be the first to give him another chance, if he wished to be reasonable and persuasive, instead of strident and judgemental.”
he is spot on.   You dont seem to really see what a friend you have there. 
As I said before, I rarely give advice, but I think you should listen to him, and I will take it one step further: try to listen more and preach less. You may think your preaching makes sense but in a Socratic world it sounds like nonsense. 
I suppose its natural that Ryan is a bit upset with me now, but  last night it appeared that he is actually showing some new colors.
From Rusty Smith’s post:
Addressed to Mustafa:
RM:"I wish you could have been here for Marilyn French.  We called here Merrily Lyong Fraud.  She tried your tactics, and she was run out of town. She was ruthlessly and relentlessly attacked, until she wilted, and ran to her liberal safe space, never to be seen again.  You will do the same.  You will be ruthlessly destroyed, until you either change, or no one on here takes you seriously at all.  
 Maybe she got bored.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 9, 2018 - 9:34am
In other words, Mustafa, like all snowflakes, you want people to treat you nice and sing your praises.
The truth doesn’t care about your feelings, and as a man, it’s time for you to learn that. 
All of you liberal men on this  post havent the slightest idea how to confront people strongly, without profanity, and to assert yourself.  And you are angry because you don’t know what to do when you come across someone who directly challenges your ideas and doesn’t backdown.  You feel trapped and imposed upon, and get indignant and resentful.  Then you act like gossipy housewives and gather on this thread to murmur, complain, and make sour faces at me.
It matters not who is right, it matter what is right.  You’ve openly advertised you don’t care about acquiring basic elements of knowledge, and would rather obfuscate, instead of taking steps of painful self discovery which are necessary for wisdom.
Humility comes before honor.
There really is no nice way to tell the truth without opposing indignation.  Jesus and Socrates told it quite nicely and were murdered for their efforts.  You don’t oppose me, only the fact the truth bothers your conscience, and you wish to get rid of the messenger.  You’d have no issues with me if I never disagreed with you and flattered you obsequiously.  
You use a passive aggressive approach to vent your spleen.  The truth doesnt change because of your passive hysterics.  At the end of the day, despite all your efforts, you remain uninformed on the Founders.  What good is it to correct a man like you, when you stubbornly refuse to learn and wage vindictive vendettas against those who correct your wrong ideas.  You ought to be thanking me, but instead you hate me.   
“Am I become your enemy because I tell you the truth”?
Apostle Paul
Stone-Eater Added Jun 9, 2018 - 9:57am
Stop to insult this community ok ? Learn to grow up and to consider views that are not yours. Integrate them. Why  ? Like that you see what's around you and not only your tunnel you feel safe.
Learn from us here. Maybe not from me but there's many clever people on WB.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 9, 2018 - 10:02am
I don’t understand Ebonics, Stone, and I can’t make heads or tails out of what you just posted.  It seems like your usual attempt to have everyone say “Hakuna matata” and accept every ones views, and everyone continue merrily along on their current part, no matter how mistaken.  
I will not be integrating half baked and uninformed ideas into my mind, thanks but no thanks.
Katharine Otto Added Jun 9, 2018 - 1:07pm
Truth be known, I hesitated before reading this post and comments, but because it was yours, I wanted to give it a fair shot.  Also, I've received the "five biographies" challenge, too, except I was asked to cite biographies written before 1950.  
I found the post more entertaining than expected because of the comments from regulars on WB who have become like friends.  I didn't know Stone had a parakeet (?), and I was happy to learn about the origin of your name.  I was interested in Mefobills' comparison between the tavern and the internet community. 
Some people seem to enjoy provoking others and draw lots of fire for it.  They are probably lucky that they have the safety of the internet to keep them from getting slugged.  This masochistic trait undermines anything of value they might have to say.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 9, 2018 - 1:16pm
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 9, 2018 - 2:57pm
MEFOBILLS comment too struck me as somewhat profound.  I knew someone  who moved to Northern New Mexico that was frustrated with our different (generally slower) driving habits and he started flipping people off. I told him that this was not Boston and rude people dont last very long. He changed his ways eventually.
I was curious about Stone Eaters parakeet myself. One of the wonderful things I remember about living in (Uster) Switzerland in 1989 was they had nightgales. Stone Eater has just discovered flowers. Who knows what may be next.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Jun 9, 2018 - 3:17pm
@ Ryan. "Your logical fallacy assertions are all false, and are a result of your failure to grasp histury and her lessons, and subsequent attempts to use sophistry and logical fallacy assertions to mask it."
It is true regarding your logical fallacy. If you looked in one of my responses in my post, I referenced your fallacy by asking readers to name it?
Ryan Messano Added Jun 9, 2018 - 3:41pm
That’s interesting, I’d be happy to learn it, Dr. Green.  One good turn deserves another, and so, if I have permission to be blunt, I have a critique of your comments too.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Jun 9, 2018 - 3:56pm
@Ryan, the story is told of the fellow who visited a football game and became angry at the many huddles. He believed in each case the players were talking about thin-skinned he was. [Is that the way with our president?] The analogy may not be apt as I was talking about you. The point then is, your response of "if you show me mine I will show you yours" is unbecoming of those who seek enlightenment.
Yes, you do have permission to be blunt because it is hypocritical if bluntness is not the order of the day in advancing responses. If the bluntness is regard to the deviation from the construct of grammar, save it. I want people here to speak their minds and express themselves freely without the grammar police. However, if individuals are positing to be euridite and highly examined, they must make sure their gramitically shit is sweet smelling, or they open themselves for the onslaught.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 9, 2018 - 4:11pm
Hey, "PARD", Why not just go fuck yourself instead of telling others how they need to behave.  If I remember MOFOSWILL is one of your buddies, so no surprise.  People say things, get called out, and I don't care if you like how I go about it or don't.  Seems okay a scumbag like Ryan can make nasty personal attacks against people, their family, parents, wife and kids, but that's okay, and I'm suppose to treat Ryan or YOU with respect because YOU both are world-class assholes, and You seek Ryan's approval for your opinions.  And now Ryan is telling people what to do, and how they should leave WB to avoid his personal attacks, well, once again, you both can go fuck yourself.  Ryan wants to take credit for pages of personal insults, finally figuring why bother.  I realize you and some others would like to visit that on me, chasing off someone (Marilyn French)  but I DOUBT THAT'S WHY SHE LEFT.  Perhaps she got tired of logging on and reading page after page of personal smears and hatreds.  I realize that's what you and a few others would like me to do, but won't.  So take your strap bar, shove it up your ass and sit down real hard.  Maybe TraitorLynn will make you Minister of transportation in the United Stat of White PEOPLE.  However, that will never happen.  Like most big talkers of his ilk, that will never happen.  I f he can't admit his treason after making it public, why do you thin he has the courage to carry it out.  All TraitorLynn has is extremely personal insults and lies, much like his new good buddy, Ryan.  And to correct Katherine Otto, neither Ryan or TraitorLynn have the courage to confront anyone personally, despite your attempt at conclusion. "School board" member Ryan?  I doubt local citizens will want a sanctimonious extremist.   As soon as his opponent exposes him got a feeling Ryan will just fade away.
Ryan Messano Added Jun 9, 2018 - 4:17pm
Examining oneself before critiquing another is quite wise.  The natural human instinct is to immediately examine those criticizing oneself, to attempt to nullify the criticism.  If the criticism can be negated, we have nothing to consider or change, and can continue on our current course.  If we are shown a contradiction in our beliefs, our being disturbed, despite often being directed at the person revealing the contradiction, is due to our conscience agreeing with the accuser.  If a mans own conscience isn’t his friend, he is, of all men most friendless.  
I think you already know what I was going to say.  As such, it would do no one any  good to say it.  A virtuous vocabulary yields the best results short and long term, and, like a surgeons scalpel, precisely divides good and evil.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Jun 9, 2018 - 4:21pm
@ Jeff. Who wins when here. The eagle who is forced to come down to the level of the turkey or the supposedly turkey who meets the eagle in the air?
Jeff Michka Added Jun 9, 2018 - 4:52pm
I just want to aid Ryan lose his election, and what that loss will bring with it.  Ryan is a disease, not a turkey or eagle.  That comparison defames both birds. 
Pardero Added Jun 9, 2018 - 5:04pm
Jeff Michka,
I do not appreciate your vulgar language and bitter diatribe. You are capable of wit and reasonable criticism, yet you continue with ugly attacks. 
You were out of order, uncouth, and off-topic. You don't even have the dignity to recognize it, in retrospect. 
It was a courtesy, to warn you off before you shredded what minimal credibility and dignity, remained to you. 
You used Mustafa's article, concerning Ryan's activities, to make yet another attack on MEFOBILLS and TL. It makes no sense. That is what trolls do. 
I have been reasonable and tolerant with you, up to that last comment, that upset you so much. I owe you no more courtesies. Carry on making a vulgar foolish troll of yourself. 
I did not jump in to defend Ryan. He has earned most of the outrage directed at him. He has an interesting side, when is the last time you showed yours?
Thanks for taking his place in the hot seat, dumb ass.
That caustic character, Ryan Messano, is a prince compared to you. Get a reality check to understand why you come across as a Tourette's addled hooligan.
I took offense at your juvenile slurs of MEFO and TL. You offered no valid criticism, or anything whatsoever, except an ad hominem attack.
You have alienated nearly everyone at WB.  I once defended your behavior, on the grounds that you may have felt bullied, and lashed out irrationally. 
If you ever decide to act like a gentleman, my creed will require me to treat you like one, EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Jun 9, 2018 - 5:05pm
@ Jeff. "I just want to aid Ryan lose his election, and what that loss will bring with it.  Ryan is a disease, not a turkey or eagle.  That comparison defames both birds."
Ok we do have the right to mobilize bias against those we oppose. But once we become fixated on those individuals, it appears they have won the psychological battle.  Thus, when they want to get their jollies, they write something and go in their bathroom for you to provide an ejaculatory response.
Keep your anger close to your vest. Still, If I had an enemy, I would feel safe hearing him say his shit. It is when he gets silent that causes me more fear.
George N Romey Added Jun 9, 2018 - 5:08pm
Mika and Ryan are nearly one in the same to a certain extent. However, as misguided as Ryan may be he is heads above Mika in character. Mika thinks he’s all that (because he watches MSNBC) but; well you know.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 9, 2018 - 8:13pm
And Geo Romey slips in to throome mud, ignoring he's nothing more than a piker, a "can't do", even for himself.  He takes swipes when he has backup, like Pard, but can't even muster the courage to do what he needs to do, and certainly will never do anything to secure himself and have a future, he hides behind "the deep state," offering they can't be over come, surrender, it's useless!  He lies about his work possibilities and tried to make it look like he was doing things where e lived in regard to hurricane recovery, but also wouldn't dispelLthe lie he stated trying to make it look like he was going to go to Puerto Rico and be a big deal there, carpetbagging Puerto Ricans.  He's like TraitorLynn, lying about his " "fixated, patriotism" while actually advocating rebellion.  The worst he can do is accuse me of watching MSNBC for .  And whatever reason, and now trying to compare me to Ryan, AI've never attacked anyone as personally as Ryan did, and HE'S GOING TO PAY THE PRICE.  Despite the crap from folks like Pardero, who is trying to boost his "friend count", anywhere and any way, I don't care.  Geo thinks he's being something more than a twit, with his "Mika" crap.  Took me a while to realize he was talking about me.  So, It's "Geo "Fraud" Romey, he's an account type, shithead and named for Eastern Europen gypsies, ROMEY'S, I  BELIEVE.  OOOOOOooo.  As to Dr. Green's comments, I want Ryan to know in advance he's going to be oppoR'd.  It's a humane disservice to that school district he wants to exercise power in.  "Fixated" or just fixed?
Pardero Added Jun 10, 2018 - 9:48pm
Jeff Michka,
I have a problem with Ryan Messano myself, because of the way he insults people and labels. I don't like it when either of you do it. I am not attempting to ingratiate myself with him, though he seems to have moderated his approach a little, and I welcome it.
Why don't you moderate your approach a little? You are a smart guy, and could offer criticism without getting so damned ugly. 
Why don't you and George call a truce and agree to stop the name calling and personal attacks? Only offer criticism of the content of the other's statements.
Jeff, I do like to make friends and enjoy having them, but I don't go along with the crowd to gain a few more. Someone who imagines he is friends with everyone, probably isn't a true friend of a single one. You can't be liked by everyone, sometimes the very qualities that appeal so strongly to some, repel and alienate others.
I realize that we have a large group of fundamentalist Christians and ultra-conservatives here, and it could make liberals edgy, but just make a good case for your opinion, in a civil way. Even a conservative will have to consider it, if presented well.
Flying Junior was in the foulest of humors for awhile, but he is back, and much appreciated.
You show up when somebody has pissed you off, and start to raise hell. Let us hear from you, when you like what somebody said. 
If you are naturally argumentive and prone to throwing insults around, make them funny insults, not the ugly kind. You will be appreciated for it.
Stop the name calling. Maybe George will follow suit. If you disagree with someone, make your case. I have no doubt that you could make some pretty good arguments, if you cared to.
I don't care for how you treated George back there, because that is just ugly, what you said, but you were civil concerning me. Consider building on that, but I ain't trying to be bossy or anything.
Consider something. Ryan got a lot of likes on his article because of Bible thumpers. Mustafa got a lot of likes, because he earned them.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 11, 2018 - 2:51am
PARD:  I don't care if Ryan gets likes from bible thumpers, or anyone else silly enough to like what he writes.  I'll agree with you on Mustafa.  As to Geo R, he's "his own weather," and functionally useless.  He will bitch, whine and cry about how unfair it is for people over 50, and declares himself "old" and shouts how he needs a "....six figure job, employment security.  He wants the 60s back, 'cause the 60s were the day for "people like him."  He advocates a lot, but seems really, really short on doing ANYTHING about his advocacy.  He does live for people saying "You're sooo right, Geo." to get his dopamine hits, which is his drug of choice, I guess.  He's soo strung out getting dopamine hits from WB, it gets funny watching him jonesing.
Flying Junior Added Jun 11, 2018 - 3:08am
You and I have a truth to explore together.  The trial of James Alex Fields Jr. the man accused of the vehicular murder of Heather Heyer as well as injuring three dozen people is set for November 26, 2018. 
Buy an Advent Calendar.  This will be James Fields Jr.'s last Thanksgiving as a free man.  I hope it's real nice with Mom and Dad and all the cousins.
The evidence will be made public at the trial planned to last three weeks.  Fields is accused of first-degree murder, five counts of malicious wounding, three counts of aggravated malicious wounding, and failure to stop in event of injury or death. All the charges are felonies.
At some point during the trial, we will all see the infamous video which is now hidden by internet AI.  I already saw it.  I felt really bad that you couldn't find it.  It's scrubbed.
Fields was seen taking part in target="_blank">Jason Kessler's Unite the Right rally at Emancipation Park with Vanguard America, a known racist, right-wing group, on August 12, 2017. He is accused of ramming a car into a group of people marching in the area of 4th and Water streets in protest to Kessler's rally. Authorities said a total of 36 people were injured, some seriously, including 32-year-old Heyer.
A three-week jury trial for Fields is scheduled to begin November 26.
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 11, 2018 - 11:01am
re:"You and I have a truth to explore together"
And what is that?
re:"Its now hidden by internet AI.  I already saw it.  I felt really bad that you couldn't find it.  It's scrubbed." 
What gave you the impression I couldnt find it?
Are you referring to the video of him driving headlong into that crowd? I certainly saw  that.
What Truth are we about to explore together, or are you going to make me guess? Im not good at guessing games.
Flying Junior Added Jun 12, 2018 - 5:30am
I authored a very important post late last year on the Unite the Right rally at Charlottesville last August wherein a young man in a late model Dodge Challenger rammed as many as three dozen people, killing Heather Heyer.
It was not headlong.
The true video which was scrubbed shows him pushing the pedal to the metal in reverse.  You only saw his approach in forward gear,  He drove very slowly forward for what appears to be a city block.  As the counter protestors began to club his vehicle, his front bumper and to break his rear window, it would have to be pure conjecture as to explain exactly why.
After he drove one city block in forward gear displacing so many that were walking in the street, he abruptly jammed it in reverse.  There is video of people jumping out of the way.  There is video of at least one male being hit hard enough to send him flying like a football.
I mentioned that he is charged with murder, malicious wounding, aggravated malicious wounding and failure to stop in causing these actions.  He struck thirty-six people.
You did not see that portion of the video.
I did.
In my previous comment, I mentioned how many counts of malicious wounding that he is charged with.  He is also accused of first-degree murder. 
These facts support my version of events.
We will not be able to sort this out until his trial.  That is when you will see what happened.  Until then, I can offer no proof.
Pardero Added Jun 12, 2018 - 6:07am
Jeff Michka,
Thank you for that detailed reply.
Although I was raised to be conservative, I was raised to have tolerance, too. I have a problem with how Ryan insults my friends and tears them down, even though he and I should supposedly have much agreement on many matters. 
He is leaving me alone, apparently because I am not 'corrupt' but I would rather he insulted me, rather than my friends and associates. 
If you ever had a friend when you were young, that told you that he won't be your friend unless you quit being friends with some kid he didn't like, is how it strikes me. 
I do not believe that there is a single person on WB that is so evil and corrupt, that I wouldn't want to associate with them, though warmongers would give me pause. 
I will never shun someone over their religion or lack thereof.
My closest friends happen to be churchgoers, but it is only a coincidence. They are good guys, not judgemental, at least not of me, and easy to be around. They don't bug me about converting. One of them drinks and gambles a bit, but that is no big deal. He is happy and easy going.
Pardero Added Jun 12, 2018 - 6:14am
Flying Junior,
That is just outstanding about your concert, playing classical music. What an interesting life you lead.
On that car ramming case, I recall a version of video that shows him switching to reverse. At the time, I thought 'Oh my God, that guy panicked and is high tailing it out of there.'
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 12, 2018 - 9:09am
"You did not see that portion of the video.
I did.
So did I. How did you get the impression that I had not?
Now, I will ask again
re:" You and I have a truth to explore together. "
can you please explain. I suspect you have  a bee in your bonnet and to remove it all you have to do is lift your bonnet.
James Travil Added Jun 12, 2018 - 11:28pm
Pardero I for one appreciate Jeff Michka's efforts to combat lying Ryan. Ryan is a cancer on this site and needs to be eradicated as such. I don't always have the time or energy to waste on the vermin so I do indeed appreciate those who do, keep up the good fight Jeff! 
Pardero Added Jun 12, 2018 - 11:54pm
James Travil,
Jeff Michka landed some blows earlier! I was impressed.
I am willing to get along with Jeff Michka, if he wants to.
Stone-Eater Added Jun 13, 2018 - 3:50pm
I was curious about Stone Eaters parakeet myself. One of the wonderful things I remember about living in (Uster) Switzerland in 1989 was they had nightgales. Stone Eater has just discovered flowers. Who knows what may be next.
LOL I was never much of a "nature guy", and even less so now because of my bad eyesight. Anyway, whenever you show up here in Winterthur (if I'm here), you're welcome. We got good Dürüm here :-)
BTW: I'm on LI for a non-insultive contact LOL You see, Ryboy is not really interested in what he says himself, he needs ATTENTION. Kinda "here I am !" complex. Why ?
Because when people start to discuss they aren't provocative anymore but reasonable. But playing the role of insulting everybody generates clicks and whatever "publicity" one needs.
Problem is here clicks don't pay, eh, Ryboy ?
Stone-Eater Added Jun 13, 2018 - 3:51pm
Jeff is OK. He just doesn't like Swiss people LOL
Mustafa Kemal Added Jun 14, 2018 - 12:02am
Stone Eater, we were living in Uster with our 9 month old youngest.
We got our first babysitter and went to a Fasnacht event at the Uster Schloss. My neighbor gave me a  bird oufit with feathers for mask, feathers around waste and ankles, a bit like Racquel Welch in Planet of the Apes, but Mustafa in a  psycho Jerzy Kosinski bird outfit. This was the only time I had Swiss women flirt with me. I guess those costumes and a little schnopps loosens those heubsche maidens up a bit. Anyway, when we were done it was late and it was  cold, I mean sooo cold, that being in feathers only, we had to run home. We were stopped by the police, but they seemed to understand very quickly
and didnt make us stand there freezing too long.
It was fun.
Pardero Added Jun 14, 2018 - 12:26am
I try to keep an eye out for you on LI. I am following a couple of your contacts. Good guys.
Jeff Michka Added Jun 15, 2018 - 7:39pm
Huh?  I have no dislikes of Swiss people, Pardster.  Where have I published anti-Swiss propaganda?  I do have disagreements with SEFa, but I'm not Michael B.  Wrong conclusion, gunner....