The Statue of Liberty - Should it be taken down?

The Statue of Liberty - Should it be taken down?
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Thank you EABC for the stimulus.


“Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”


The Statue of Liberty was given to the people of the USA by France. It stands as a beacon on Liberty island in New York. It was constructed to honour freedom and democracy in the post-slavery age.


It is a monument to all that is good about America – it’s welcoming hand to the downtrodden, poor, destitute and oppressed.


As a British man I can identify with that. Britain has a long history of social struggle and of being a country that offers refuge to those who are sorely oppressed. It is what we stand for. I am proud to be part of that tradition. I stand for equality, freedom, tolerance and fairness.


The section above is part of a poem written by Emma Lazarus which is to be found in the statue and epitomises the philosophy on which it is founded.


The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
MOTHER OF EXILES. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”


It was conceived as a New Colossus (of Rhodes) straddling the harbour and the two mighty rivers – a beacon of hope for the hordes of oppressed refugees who flocked to the States.


The descendants of those refugees have now turned their back on the oppressed and want rid of those they do not deem fit to come. Now there is, in Britain and the USA, a hostility to those in need, a distrust to all who would come and a hatred to anyone who is different. Now they are seen as threatening the culture and are despised and driven away. It is alright to tear their families apart and detain them in cages.


Now there are walls, forced deportations, and callous disregard of people and families. Nothing is done in a humane manner. People have to be dissuaded from coming.


Now there is fear of terrorism, of islamification, of all those who are different.


Shouldn’t the Statue of Liberty be taken down? Or at least shrouded in some way. It’s message of hope, freedom and democracy seems hollow in these times.







opher goodwin Added Jul 3, 2018 - 10:56am
In the face of the callous treatment of immigrants the Statue of Liberty seems wrong. Perhaps there should be big prison gates across the bay? Or razor-wire like an internment camp?
Jeff Michka Added Jul 3, 2018 - 11:34am
With "Arbeit mach frei" over the entry arch.   Trumpist scum want internments and imprison those "stupid migrants," that actually saw America as a symbol of hope, now a place just ran by dopes.  How could migrants be so silly.  This is America under Trump:  "abandon all hope ye who enter here." Remember, opher, migrants have been dehumanized so they are just coming here for "the free stuff" and to vote as democrats.   OH, I FOR,GOT THE "BIG STUFF:" All those migrants are rapists and murderers.   They are all in the MS13 army.  I recently discovered I 's been made a general in the MS13 invading army, better issue orders for them to attack Trumpists or I won't be earning my check from George Soros.
Jeff Michka Added Jul 3, 2018 - 11:35am
The "bright shining crime scene/internment camp on the Hill."  America is wonderful, wonderful, really makes it..." LOL
Bill H. Added Jul 3, 2018 - 11:43am
I suspect it will shortly be replaced by a giant statue of the Orange Buffoon himself displaying his usual shit-eating grin and one hand doing the point then thumbs-up thing. On the base in giant gold letters will be TRUMP MAGA.
opher goodwin Added Jul 3, 2018 - 12:10pm
Jeff - I thought they were all terrorists - particularly those little kids. They use them for drug running and suicide vests.
opher goodwin Added Jul 3, 2018 - 12:10pm
Bill - that is a horrid image you have placed in my head!
Ryan Messano Added Jul 3, 2018 - 2:25pm
Opher, please get busy reading the "Federalist Papers".   Your observations are guaranteed to be senseless parroting of the lamestream media otherwise.  Whatever CNN said 2 weeks ago is likely to be your current talking point.
opher goodwin Added Jul 3, 2018 - 2:56pm
Really Ryan - but at least that is a big improvement on your parroting of stuff that's a couple of thousand years out of date.
Jeff Michka Added Jul 3, 2018 - 2:59pm
Better step to it, opher.  Ryan issued orders...the federalist papers on proper stock, make for good asswipes.  And yeah, all those kids are little terrorists, smuggled in by MS13 to mount assaults from within against the "good white people' cringing in fear of their culture being stolen by those baaaad brown people.   Geezus.  "Disturbed" and his pro-Trumpist article have disappeared, but he is an Anglo-Saxon tribe member, he said so.  Should he leave the US and move to England?
opher goodwin Added Jul 3, 2018 - 3:01pm
Jeff - that is a nasty idea. We don't want him. We have policies on immigration. 
Neil Lock Added Jul 3, 2018 - 5:13pm
Opher: I disagree. There should be lots of copies made of the Statue of Liberty. Why doesn't Humpty Trumpty want to decorate his wall, before he falls off it? A Statue of Liberty every mile would look pretty good, wouldn't it? Like the watch-towers on the Great Wall of China?
But Bill H. has a good point too. At the very mid point of the wall, why shouldn't there be a monument to its designer?
BTW, the Darn-Poor Rhymer concedes that his verses do not measure up to anywhere near the quality of those of Emma Lazarus.
opher goodwin Added Jul 3, 2018 - 6:18pm
Neil - it certainly would make that wall look good and it would teach those damn Mexicans the meaning of irony.
A huge orange statue in the middle - hmmmm - yes OK. Would it have the words of Ozymandias?
Jeff Michka Added Jul 3, 2018 - 6:19pm
"Tear it down!! Lock her up!!"  That way Trump can build another NYC Trump tower on the site with Russian financing and labor, then have monuments on Ellis to the "good white people" who fended off the terrorist migrants here to destroy 'murrica. 
opher goodwin Added Jul 3, 2018 - 6:56pm
Jeff - well that is a different approach to Neil's but displays the same attributes.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Jul 3, 2018 - 7:46pm
Flying Junior Added Jul 3, 2018 - 9:12pm
We have not yet given up hope.  Trump has no more power than that constitutionally allotted  to him and his ruling party.  All is not lost, yet.
The people may very well win this and we will return, albeit severely battered, to the greater world community to reclaim our former status as friend and ally.
Mr. Vengeance Added Jul 3, 2018 - 9:56pm
Yes Opher, it needs to be taken down...I'm all for melting it down, refabricating it into a GIANT DILDO, and proceed to ram it sideways up the assholes of euro-dickheads JUST LIKE YOU!!! Never mind why it was put up there in the first place...for euro-dickheads, JUST LIKE YOU! LOL!!!
Bill H. Added Jul 3, 2018 - 11:25pm
Michael - Trump would be proud of you!
Mr. Vengeance Added Jul 3, 2018 - 11:53pm
Bill H. - How DARE you say that! Don't conflate my dislike of eurotrash like Gopher and Stone-Head as Trumpism, lol.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 3:28am
Jeffry - very intelligent and eloquent.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 3:33am
Flying Junior - one would hope so but I see an ill wind that is blowing that is chilling the very souls of Americans and freezing their hearts. There is an unpleasant selfishness, arrogance and greed that has been unleashed. America turns against its friends and cosies up to its enemies. Pleasantness, friendliness and charity have been replaced by belligerence, nastiness and aggression. It's manifest on every thread in this site. I don't see it changing. The American psyche has a cruel element that has been magnified.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 3:37am
Thank you Michael. At least a bit of honesty, if rather uncouth and nasty. Yes it is hypocritical to have statues that represent a sentiment that no longer exists. A giant dildo would be appropriate as America is fucking the whole world. Maybe a small one though - as its power is diminishing. I would also suggest another even bigger statue of an arsehole to represent the presence of arseholes like you.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 3:39am
Bill - you are right. Trump would be proud of him. He perfectly reflects the unintelligent hate-filled ranting that he espouses. The virus does its job. 
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 3:41am
Michael - you illustrate all that is the worst.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 4, 2018 - 6:11am
To the title:
Of course. Was it ever a country of "freedom" ? Maybe for some white settlers. But not for the people which were there BEFORE....
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 6:15am
Stone - right on!
Commiserations over the football. I thought you deserved to win!
(How's the book going?)
Stone-Eater Added Jul 4, 2018 - 6:15am
Well, you're certainly a good soldier in the name of "god's own country". Don't waste time and enlist for a duty in, say, Somalia, Yemen or Libya. You know, the front yard of the US (for help on orientation see a map, available on Google). People there need freedom. And if they don't want that, bomb them until they want it LOL
You will be honored when you make it back and get Post Traumatic Stress Disorder for free ;-)
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 7:12am
Or a body bag.
U.S. Voter Added Jul 4, 2018 - 8:08am
The MILLION LEGAL IMMIGRANTS that come to this country every year are perfectly happy with it as it is.  I'm sure it was a wonderful welcoming sight to the millions that came LEGALLY through Ellis Island, who endured the paperwork and the medical checks without cutting in line in front of others waiting to come here as well.  
Proclaim Liberty Added Jul 4, 2018 - 8:13am
Well, so far I notice a great deal of the response submitted here is not at all constructive, but is rather to be characterized by what is called in Hebrew "lashon ha-r'a", literally an evil or destructive tongue, and all apparently based on a thorough misunderstanding of current events.  For example, what is conspicuously absent from the essay here is any distinction between legal immigration, that is perfectly acceptable and encouraged in the USA, and illegal border transgression and invasion.  The folks who came to the USA a century ago, or 75-80 years ago, did it legally, even though there were a lot of them fleeing from dire circumstances.
Too many of the folks who have been swarming the US southern border, and invading the USA illegally, have been identified as criminals who would not be eligible as "asylum seekers".  Some of them are actually kidnappers who use children as pawns to cover their history and intent, often by killing their real parents and claiming to be relatives fleeing a persecution in which the original parents were killed.  Border Enforcement and Immigration Enforcement personnel are charged with the task of protecting American citizens first and foremost, and secondarily they may be able actually to rescue such abused children.  Nonetheless, it is their proper function to investigate those who come to determine their status and adjudicate their infraction.  Nonetheless, in these current cases we are discussing invaders rather than immigrants, violators rather than victims.
Those who come who truly may be eligible for asylum must nonetheless apply for entry in compliance with US immigration laws.  And if they are not being persecuted in Mexico, which was not the country they left due to persecution, then why are they not requesting asylum in Mexico or any of the other countries which they have traversed?  Why should the USA be deemed some sort of infinite resource that should admit them all and supply all their wants and desires?  Why should the USA not be allowed to determine for itself how many immigrants of any sort it may have charitable resources to help?  Emma Lazarus wrote a poem outlining a noble compassionate vision; but she is not present to observe whether the current situation corresponds with that vision or if it is different, nor is she operating any sort of charitable fund that might be capable of helping even legal, poverty-stricken, asylum seeking, immigrants.
What I have seen in the responses to this essay is an utter disregard and disdain of the US government, its leaders, and its legal responsibilities.  That does not represent in any manner the sense of civic responsibility by which a democratic nation must conduct itself, nor the methodology of reasonable persuasion by which fellow citizens may agree to address actual problems with orderly, legal, democratic procedures.  Demagoguery is not an acceptable methodology.
Wayne McMichael Added Jul 4, 2018 - 8:31am
Immigration necessarily has laws governing that process. Ignoring laws are a bad decision. We are responsible for our actions, but most importantly, we are responsible for our emotions. Destroyers are never happy.
Dino Manalis Added Jul 4, 2018 - 8:38am
 The Statue of Liberty gives us hope and endurance in efforts to come together as a nation and assimilate into our society.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 8:53am
Thank you US Voter - a good point. I think the question then moves to how one might become a legal immigrant.
Proclaim Liberty Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:00am
Opher -- If US Voter's figures are correct, a million immigrants figure that out each year and comply with it.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:01am
Mr Liberty - do you have any data to support those assertions? It seems to me that the States do not know who these illegal immigrants actually are so how are you able to assert that they are criminals, kidnappers and parent murders? If the government actually knew who they were they'd be deporting them wouldn't they? I'm sorry but I find that quite unfounded and alarmist. It seems to be the propaganda that has been promoted by Trump to create fear and hatred and demonise these people.
I do not oppose the regulation of immigration. Borders should be established and illegals immigrants returned (with the adjunct that asylum seekers should be processed). What I am disturbed by is the inhumane treatment of these people - particularly young children. It seems callous, heartless and extremely nasty.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:04am
Wayne - I agree that immigration needs controlling and laws should be applied. My concern is purely with the way this is being carried out. To treat young children in an inhumane manner is not civilised.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:05am
Dino - it seems to me that it no longer stands for anything America now stands for. It no longer applies. There is a heartlessness in the land.
Proclaim Liberty Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:10am
Opher -- I have read other articles on the subject claiming data of the sort you request.  Regrettably, I am not close enough to the situation to have access to such data personally.  Nonetheless, I can reasonably credit such reports at least as much as any other reports claiming mistreatment of immigrant children -- indeed, I believe greater skepticism should be applied to the latter.
Wayne McMichael Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:12am
opher goodwin There is no chance of being separated from your parents in a legal immigration case. However criminals have always been separated from their kids. Perhaps your sources are misleading you. The statistics on people illegally cross the border are disgusting however. MS13 has no heart. Statistics show the estimated 11.7 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. account for 13.6 percent of all offenders sentenced for crimes committed in the U.S. Twelve percent of murder sentences, 20 percent of kidnapping sentences and 16 percent of drug trafficking sentences are meted out to illegal immigrants.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:19am
Wayne - there is politics at work. There are deliberately not enough judges appointed to deal with the immigrants. Children are being deliberately separated from parents in a deliberate policy. It is aimed at deliberately dissuading people. I do not think children should be treated this way or used in this manner.
Because of the lack of judges the cases do not reach court and children are separated.
You don't by chance think that the circumstances illegal immigrants find themselves in - ie. difficulty in finding employment, gaining housing and leading an ordinary life - might be a big factor in their involvement in crime? Drugs and gangs might be one of their limited options.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:22am
Mr Liberty - there we differ. I firmly believe that the propaganda put out on the criminal nature of illegal immigrants is manufactured, exaggerated and intended to arouse distrust, hatred and division. It is part of the process on dehumanising. I believe the separation of young children from their relatives is a fact.
Wayne McMichael Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:27am
opher goodwin dude you are spreading lies, simple as that.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:31am
Wayne - and precisely what lies am I spreading?
Children are not being ripped from their families?
Politicians are not deliberately withholding funding for judges?
Illegal immigrants do not have problems getting jobs?
Proclaim Liberty Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:44am
Separation of children from the criminals who dragged them across a border illegally was a longstanding policy from prior administrations that now has been ordered to be discontinued, due to public outcry that appears may be based at least in part on misinformation or deliberate politically-motivated disinformation.  It remains to be determined what percentage of these children still may need to be rescued from the criminal adults they accompany.  Accusations of lies and propaganda about how these invaders are being processed, and about the number of violent criminals represented in the population of illegals already in the country and among the current crop of them, have been leveled against at least two sides of a disagreement that has been illustrated here.
Proclaim Liberty Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:51am
Note, for the sake of clarity, that I have correctly applied the term "criminal" to violent criminals as well as to security criminals whose transgression may be limited to violation of protective borders and possible property damage to fencing and other boundary markers.  It will remain the responsibility of immigration officials to investigate the severity of violations committed by any particular individual.
Leroy Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:55am
We should hang $100 bills from her for illegals to collect.  It would have the same effect.  It would be like Christmas everyday.
Even A Broken Clock Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:58am
Opher - I'm glad my piece inspired you. Unfortunately you will be unsuccessful in convincing folks that the US has set up a Catch-22 situation on the border due to the stated lack of resources. At the same time that the zero tolerance policy was instituted for illegal crossings, the US began slow-walking applicants for asylum through the official border crossings. Thus we have people waiting for weeks for the chance to apply for asylum legally, and eventually some of these folks despair of ever getting over the border legally and decide to try it illegally. Then they are charged with the crime.
I keep hearing about the difference between legal and illegal. The main difference is that the legal ones were lucky enough to win a lottery. Again, this country and most wealthy countries across the world do not have the capability to assimilate all who would want to come here. If the response is to quickly return illegal immigrants, then provide adequate judges and facilities to quickly process the cases, rather than build ever more ridiculous detention centers.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 10:00am
Mr Liberty - you use very pejorative adjectives - swarming and dragged.
I do not think those children were dragged across the border. They went with their parents, rightly or wrongly looking for a better life. 
Regardless of who started this policy it is quite apparent that it is being enforced in a more callous manner and one that no civilised person should endorse. In a country where liberty is supposedly the key word authorities should have extremely good reasons to warrant removing children from their parents. It isn't yet a police state is it? It is possible that some of those children might need protection. That is no excuse for ripping parents from their family without any evidence of wrongdoing apart from the misdemeanor of illegal entry.
Linda Paul Added Jul 4, 2018 - 10:08am
Not all of us have turned our backs, Opher. Hopefully there are still more than 50% of Americans who would reach a hand out to rescue the poor, the downtrodden, the abused, and offer shelter. I'm encouraged by the response of people in my community, which houses a proportionately large population of refugees, to a vicious attack upon a group of refugees celebrating a little girl's 3rd birthday. This has yet to be linked as a hate crime. The attacker was an itinerant, with a rap sheet as long as his dreads, and quite obvious mental/social issues. Upon initial investigation, it appears his attack was in response to being kicked out of an apartment in that complex--kicked out by the person who had reached out to help him, but had been unable to deal with his behavior. The response of Boise residents has been overwhelming: gathering around the refugee community with food, flowers, songs, hugs, vigils, tears, money for medical costs, and empathy. All the empathy in the world will not bring the little 3-year old victim back to life, nor will it mend the heart of the mother and father of the child. That is what is so frustrating and painful.
BTW, I love your response to Liberty, who seems to think himself very astute and logical but can't support any of his wild claims with "real facts."
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 10:22am
Leroy - I am not quite sure what you are saying here. Immigration is certainly a problem that needs addressing and I am certainly not suggesting hand-outs. Desperate people do desperate things. If you were living in their circumstances you would probably be tempted to try to improve chances for yourself and your family.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 10:26am
EABC - thank you for the inspiration. 
Yes I believe there is a distinct ploy. Make life as unpleasant as possible and it will dissuade others from trying. It is a ploy I deplore. It is, in my opinion, inhumane.
I believe the way to deal with mass immigration is to address the problems in their homeland that lead to such desperation.
What you say about judges and processing asylum seekers quickly makes sense to me.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 10:29am
Linda - I am heartened to hear from you. What I pick up from my interactions on this site is that there is a heartless culture that has built up in the USA. Everything is aggressive, violent and belligerent. It seems to me that an unpleasant wind is blowing through the country and has brought out a wave of racism and nastiness. I have not witnessed a division like it. I am pleased to hear that compassion and empathy still exists. Thank you.
Proclaim Liberty Added Jul 4, 2018 - 10:31am
Is invasion of a country a misdemeanor?  Yes, I deliberately chose pejorative terms, to emphasize that what is being violated here is the American right to guard and enforce a border that supports individual and family security from those who may bring one or another form of harm.  Also being violated with slander is the reputation of dedicated well-intentioned American officials whose appointed job is to protect Americans by enforcing protective laws and policies.  You and I are not privy to any direct evidence of callousness or mistreatment or even incivility.  Your choice of the term "ripping" is just as loaded as any that I used.  Both of us read articles reporting various events and claiming one or another behavior was acceptable or unacceptable.  Both of us are limited in our ability to validate what we read on this matter.  But I do not overlay a presumption of guilt or wrongdoing onto American immigration officials as I weigh the conflicting reports.  I recognize the political motivations represented in each such report and maintain a somewhat evenhanded skepticism about the reports, though I have more definite opinions about the political motivations.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 10:42am
Mr Liberty - in legal terms it is indeed a misdemeanour. I am afraid that when you use such emotive terms you are inviting an emotion response rather than a cerebral one. When one arouses fear and hatred then logic goes out of the window. 
There is obviously a problem regarding immigration. It is one that requires intelligent responses coupled with civilised behaviour and compassion. A parent wants what is best for their family. That is human nature. They should be treated with compassion rather than deliberately demonised.
I believe my use of the word ripping is more descriptive of the distress that is actually happening when a child is forcibly removed from its parent than your use of words such as invasion, swarming, kidnapping and murdering. One is a description of a real act the other is a blatant ploy to create an emotional response. There is no actual invasion is there? They are not all kidnappers and murderers are they?
I would suggest that there are better, more civilised, ways of dealing with this immigration problem.
John J Bernard Added Jul 4, 2018 - 10:42am
Absolutely no one is suggesting we not accept immigrants.
But immigration is a legal process - not a helter-skelter/Devil-may-care, disorganized circle jerk.
There is a process, and yes, a line.
Every single one of my migrant relatives (now citizens), walked through the front door; they did not "hop the fence".
Anyone whose first action upon reaching these shores is to break it's most fundamental of laws, is not someone who should be sent to the front of the line much less, shown deference.
I am sorry that concept is lost on the Left, but I for one will not be rolling over on this or allowing legal language and processes to be perverted based solely on emotionalism.
If anyone truly believes that behemoth on the Island truly represents chaos and anarchy, then I will lend a hand in dragging it to the ground. 
It is not the foundation of our jurisprudence, our Liberty, or our beginning; it was simply a gift from a grateful Nation  whose metaphorical butt we bled for on numerous occasions....and without that sacrifice by us, would they even exist today.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 10:56am
John - The statue of liberty was given to the USA by France. They were the ones who decisively involved with the Americans to kick the British out. The statue was really one in the eye for the Brits from its old enemy. They were opportunists.
Nobody is suggesting there shouldn't be proper immigration processes. Illegal immigration should not be tolerated. What I am saying is that there should be a well-thought through process and civilised behaviour. What is presently happening is inhumane and callous. It does not have to be that way.
I do not believe that the poem on the statue still represents what America now stands for. There is a very nasty wind blowing.
Don Allen Added Jul 4, 2018 - 10:58am
I saw the Taliban blast away their heritage (in Afghanistan), and then ISIS destroy theirs (in Syria).  In previous centuries, the Catholics and Romans wrecked havoc upon their past.  Now we, the USA, are dismantling or hiding our heritage.  Why shroud the Statue of Liberty in sheets of cloth sewn together with threads of discontent and disagreement?  Why not explode it into a million pieces?  
As Texas liberal columnist, Molly Ivins, once said, "You got to dance with them what brung you."
Proclaim Liberty Added Jul 4, 2018 - 11:04am
Opher, "ripping" is just as emotive a term as "dragging" or any of the others I employed.  You note that a parent wants what is best for their children or their family.  You failed to note that citizens want and deserve what is best for their nation and their own families and their own well-being. That is a fundamental inalienable right cited in the Declaration of Independence, expressed as the "pursuit of happiness".  The proper pursuit of personal well-being by a would-be immigrant is to apply for that status legally, along with however many others are also in the queue.  If there exist exigencies to justify expediting that request, these also may be considered by immigration officials.  There is no justification to presume they are not proceeding in accordance with American values of justice and compassion.  Justice applied against illegal queue-jumpers may not appear so pleasant to outsider eyes.  Justice enforcement applied against worse offenders well may be expected to appear unpleasant.  It is not less just for all that.
It has been noted here that a significantly large number of legal immigrants are accepted every year.  Illegal invaders have no right to demand priority by dint of jumping over the fence.  Citizens are not wrong to demand protection from their importunity.  Citizens who wish to sponsor and take responsibility for assisting impoverished or distressed immigrants are welcome to do so; but they also are not permitted to flout the nation's laws.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 11:10am
Don - yes religious fundamentalists are nuts. One should always celebrate ones heritage but not be a slave to it, eh? Not that the USA has much of a heritage. Firstly it's far too new and secondly it is a mongrel nation made up of people from all over the place. Its heritage is so varied it is hard to nail down. That idea of heritage has been used to create divisions between people hasn't it?
I go with the quote of Samuel Johnson that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.  I fear that it has been used by politicians in order o create a false vision and a false set of emotions.
I think that what is more important than heritage is morality and compassion.
Proclaim Liberty Added Jul 4, 2018 - 12:00pm
The heritage of the USA is ideological and independent of the diversity of its inhabitants.  That heritage extends back prior to the founding of the nation itself, into ideals of Western civilization expressed by Hobs, Hume, Smith, and other Enlightenment and Renaissance writers, and even back to Greek writers and Biblical ones.  The specific definition of that heritage is summarized in its founding documents, such as the Declaration, the Constitution, the Federalist Papers, the Madison letters, and some others.  The quality or thoroughness with which that heritage has been applied in any given generation is often disputed, which is also an expression of that heritage.  Samuel Johnson's famous epithet about patriotism was not a definition, but rather an argument against its misapplication.
Tubularsock Added Jul 4, 2018 - 12:26pm
opher, Neil Lock has given Tubularsock an idea!
Tubularsock believes at this moment (and things change rapidly) that we should build “the border wall” out of Statue of Liberties shoulder to shoulder across the boarder.
And each would have the, “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. . .” at its base.
That way we can keep the “traditional lie” going on and still keep those tired and poor out of America.
AND we can still feel committed to freedom and democracy so we don’t have to go to the expense of changing all those American History text books promoting the bull shit!
Don Allen Added Jul 4, 2018 - 12:41pm
Goodness.  The American dream does not admit everyone and his sister as citizens.  Never did.  Your America is not America; it is a residence apparently with an endless spigot of wealth to support the effluence from everywhere. 
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 12:53pm
Mr Liberty - I can't help thinking that the heritage to which you refer is rather contrived. It is largely based on various Northern European heritages, mainly British, that were hastily cobbled together by the likes of Paine and Jefferson. But your definition fails to franchise the Hispanic and African elements which make up sizeable minorities. Many other components - Native American Indians, Amish, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Asians are also sidelined. 
Heritage is usually based on thousands of years of shared culture. In the present context of the world where races and cultures mix so much I think this idea of defending some arbitrary heritage is rather outdated. By all means celebrate heritage but also note that it, like in the UK, is always enriched by the influx of others and is constantly changing. As for the Biblical aspect of that - well that is a good example of a foreign (what could be loosely described as Arab) culture interacting with the Greco-Roman tradition and Pagan traditions. Certainly Christianity has no roots in Western heritage. It displaced our Western heritage.
I take Johnson's use of the phrase against patriotism as a warning. It is usually misused.
Proclaim Liberty Added Jul 4, 2018 - 12:55pm
I get the impression that Tubularsock hasn't read this entire thread, to note the difference between legal immigration, which apparently admits a million each year, and illegal fence-jumping invasion, which shouldn't admit anyone. 
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 12:57pm
Tub - that would make a very impressive sight for future archeologists to ponder over - a type of Easter Island of statues! It would certainly attract in a lot of tourism which would be good for the economy and help finance it. 
As for the history books - well they just ignore history anyway don't they? The whole Native American genocide is written out. They'll write what Trump tells them to write. Most Americans will believe anything. After all there are plenty examples of Holocaust denial on this site to prove that.
Even A Broken Clock Added Jul 4, 2018 - 3:18pm
I still liked my idea of having the entire southern border lined with Trump golf courses, where vigilantes on golf carts would keep the illegals from playing through.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 3:48pm
EABC - yes but the cost of watering all those courses in such arid conditions!
Bill Kamps Added Jul 4, 2018 - 4:24pm
opher, one thing we do still allow is free speech even by people who dont live here.  I dont know how many years you have lived in the US, but I gather from  your posts that you are not a citizen and you live in the UK. 
You certainly know as well as anyone that we cant keep open doors on immigration, and yet by saying we should take down the Statue of Liberty because we are not fulfilling our country's promise  Not your country of course, but ours.  I dont see anyone here suggesting that the UK take down your statue of Lord Nelson because Britannia no longer rules the sea. 
Most of us dont go around preaching what would be the best policy for the UK for  immigration, or employment or a myriad of other things that you lecture us about.  We dont lecture you because we dont know the details of the UK, and because we largely dont care.  It is not our business what the UK does. 
Yes of course the US has a broken set of laws when it comes to immigration.  Broken laws in any  country create a mess, because then the laws are enforced arbitrarily. 
At the border these days ICE almost cant do its job because of the conflicting laws.  Parents fall under Homeland Security, and children under HSE, two different cabinet positions in the US.  Of course this creates an untenable mess.  A mess both parties exploit for political purposes. 
Im sure that kind of thing never happens in the UK. 
Jeff Michka Added Jul 4, 2018 - 4:26pm
It's "Tea time" on this thread, and of course and under orders from the rightists who have decided to run WB, you aren't suppose to respond to me, or allow my comments.  If I'm silenced and can't point out some ace hypocrites, they'll feel "safe."  Liber tea is the typical rightist, making all sorts of using perjoratives and weaponizing words, now Liber tea is mouthing the "Invasion" crap ("Jaaaaaps, now it's either migrants or illegals, maybe Araaabs!!!)  Poor fearful members of the white people tribe.  unless the "tide" of migration is ended, the tribe will be wiped out in a few years.  Enter Trump, whoo claims "he cares", but only in as much as he can continue to frighten the poor white people that seemingly believe his "Only I can fix it."  White people really do like the idea of internments and taking kids, just to "hurt "those people," the Other not of the good white people tribe.  And to the guy saying "nobody wants to end immigration," bzzzt wrong!!!  That's the idea, and somehow this will put all the steel workers and coal miners back to work.
Jeff Michka Added Jul 4, 2018 - 4:30pm
So, tear down Statue of Liberty, recycle the copper, replace it with a similar Statue of Rejection, not out of copper, but fiberglass like Melanoma Trump.  It will mean no net loss of public lies about America.  Proclaim Lies can make up a fantasy about the Melanoma memorial...
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 4:38pm
Bill - I'm not dictating. I'm putting forward ideas for debate. I'd quite happily discuss Nelson. Though, of course that column was put up to celebrate a great victory - the battle of Trafalgar. The Statue of Liberty was put up for different reasons - it espoused a set of values that were clearly laid out in the poem and are certainly not the values that are espoused by Trump.
I have lived in the States at two different times and am a UK citizen but, forgive me if I'm wrong, I thought this was an international forum for discussion.
Yes immigration is a serious issue both in the UK and the USA. It has landed us with Trump, Brexit and a rise in fascism and hate crime. We have to regulate it. My objection is that it is being done in a ham-fisted, cynical and callous manner for political reasons.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 4:39pm
Jeff - I think you are pretty spot on with your analysis. The irony is that they all follow an Arab religion.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 4:41pm
Jeff - yes that sounds reasonable. Though she already looks to be made of plastic. Just get her to stand there!
Ryan Messano Added Jul 4, 2018 - 4:42pm
Opher, if you don’t like borders, then quit being a hypocrite and locking your doors.  Let every bum into your home to use your stuff, whether you consent or not.
John J Bernard Added Jul 4, 2018 - 4:51pm
Opher; this Nation is hardly "new". The foundation stones for it were laid over 400 years ago; the "United States Constitution" (a document to establish and govern this Nation - not the world) was ratified in 1789.
I have never known another culture or another people as a foundational experience in my upbringing and so, this Nation and its heritage are both unique, and have made me who I am - and most likely the upper 75% of this population can say the same.
The evil in the multi-cultural mantra is that is seeks to erase that fact; that we are an identifiable, and unique culture.
I always find it curious that only foreigners seem to know we are American....although there are those on foreign soil who would love to marginalize us as well.
What is happening on the southern border is not of our making. It is instigated by people who have been told they can simply walk in, or break in without consequence.
It is exacerbated by the mingling in of perverts seeking to sell flesh - and drugs, and who are peddling children while masquerading as their Parents.
Segregating children from the adults they arrive with has as much to do with safeguarding children I'm the midst of uncertainty - as anything else. Most of the people  reaching the border cannot be readily vetted and so the process takes longer and longer still because the number of agents available to vette them is dwarfed by those breaching the border.
If you want to help; spread the word that breaching the border of a Nation not your own, is NEVER wise or Right.
And by the way; there does not exist any natural right for any person upon the earth to become a citizen of any sovereign Nation that they are not already a citizen of - children or no children.
I find it more than ironic that those who decry the mess on the Mexican border would be the very first to call the authorities if someone breached the security and tranquility of their personal domicile....including that Demon in the funny hat sitting on the throne in the Vatican. How many illegals or even asylum seekers do you suppose are residing within its 40 foot tall walls?
John J Bernard Added Jul 4, 2018 - 4:54pm
Jeff Michka, feel free to read my last comments.
By the many people are you prepared to allow to break into your house?
Proclaim Liberty Added Jul 4, 2018 - 4:54pm
Do you hear yourself, Jeff?  You invoke the false racist canard that "white people" are afraid of immigrants because they are not like them, and that they "like" internments and hurting these "others" and their kids.  Aside from the fact that this is a set of outright scurrilous lies, you are ignoring all the real reasons for distinguishing between "good" legal immigration and "bad" illegal fence-jumping.  Do you like that last term better than "criminal invasion"?  Note that "rightists" are not the only ones using loaded terminology.  Leftists have been doing it for quite a long time, and only recently have rightists been striking back with similarly loaded terminology to challenge and balance-out the faulty slant of the leftist narrative.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 5:02pm
Ryan - I would rather we did not have borders. That is true. But before we can get to that we'd have to clear up the mess runaway capitalism has made of the world and address the gross inequality which produces so many desperate people with no future or hope. Then we can move to a global community of equals.
Right now we need borders. We need proper funding for processing of immigrants and we need humane handling of people. If you had the intellect or compassion you'd understand that, boy.
Jeff Michka Added Jul 4, 2018 - 5:04pm
What a lot of self-congratulatory total rightist bullshit, Liber tea.  The reason Trump is in office was a good  job narrative spinning, like you just tried, to frighten satupid and silly white people fearful they won't be a majority, and that will mean they might not control everything, and be at the mercy of "gawdless hoards."  Gee, wasn't it your Orange baboon that came down the escalator to the cheers of paid actor extras to launch his presidential campaign, declaring Hispanic migrants "murderers and rapists," day one.  He's harped on that theme and gotten the good white people tribe freaking out they'll all be killed in their sleep by "invaders," youo've used the same words and approach.  Rightists have played the weaponized word game for years, take some responsibility for being a total sucker for certain words and comforting propaganda.  You just tried to play it again and got caught.  I don't like you, your "words" or anything about your point of view.
Bill Kamps Added Jul 4, 2018 - 5:12pm
The Statue of Liberty was put up for different reasons - it espoused a set of values that were clearly laid out in the poem
I would differ, and say that it espoused a sentiment, and a sentiment of a foreigner at that.   It does not espouse the law of the land.  Congress or the President did not put it up in conjunction with the passage of some immigration act.  This was not a promise made to the world by the US citizens or government. 
Yes it is an international forum for discussion.  However, what you are doing is simply amplifying the nonsense that is in our media, and on the internet.  You arent really talking about the law, or the facts of how ICE has to deal with immigration.  You are just saying it is awful and implying it is Trump's fault and we should take down the Statue of Liberty because of it.  Rubbish. 
Since you dont live here, you could hardly say that fascism in the US is on the rise, that hate crimes are on the rise.  As a resident here I see no evidence in day to day life of these kinds of problems.  Yes it makes it to the news sometimes, because in a population of 350 million, we have our share of nut cases. 
My bet is that prior to a few months ago had no idea what the immigration law in the US was.  Just as I have no idea what UK immigration law is.   You probably only know what you see in the media, or on the internet, which is a pretty narrow view of the US at any point in time.
While Trump has spoken often about immigration, and inconsistently he did not create the tragedy on the border.  He has raised the visibility of the problem, wisely or not.   Obama's actions were hardly better, since he practiced "catch and release".  They caught the people as they came across, and then let them free to disappear into the  US with no tracking.  Hardly enforcing the rule of law.   This may seem better to you, living in the UK, it was not better for us living in Texas.  Where was your outrage at Obama about this?
While a lot of noise has been made about children being separated from their parents, there are 5x as many children arriving with no parents at all.  Why? because once children are here, they can petition for the parents to join them, legally.   There are a lot of people using our broken immigration laws in a very cynical way.
If these people are truly seeking asylum, why dont they stop in Costa Rica or Mexico, why travel the extra hundreds of dangerous miles to the US if their treatment here would be so cruel?   All of these people are being treated better than they were on their trip here.  They have a roof over their heads, and three meals a day.  They are safe.  They didnt come here on a bus, staying in motels.  They walked, or hitched rides on trains, or buses, they dealt with criminals who promised them help in exchange for money, and these criminals often assaulted them or raped the women.  Why not outrage at them?
Whether they are truly asylum seekers or opportunists is a difficult thing to sort out.  Almost anyone living in El Salvador or Honduras can claim hardship or some kind of dangerous situation.  We cant take them all, and the UK couldnt either. We have to have some limit on what we can do, and unfortunately the Congress has not stepped up to solving the problem over these past 20-30 years.   Why? because both parties see political opportunity in allowing the problem to continue.  So why not outrage at Congress?  why say we have to take a statue down, which many people like? what would that accomplish?  nothing. 
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 5:18pm
John - 400 years is a stretch. It was a British colony up until 1783.
I would suggest that you have known other cultures. The culture you were brought up in had the culture of your heritage from the country of your families origin. The American experience will have greatly differed depending on the culture of origin. The Irish, Jewish, Italian, Polish, English, German and others all brought their heritage with them and it coloured the heritage they assumed.
American heritage is not uniform. What you perceive and what someone else perceives is different. The unifying processing of brainwashing with all those pledges, flags and such was necessary to unite people around a fiction precisely because they were so diverse.
You have signed up to a fiction. I suggest you read Noah Harari. He explains it well in Homo Deus and Homo Sapiens.
Nations and religions are fictions. They are not real. If people did not believe in them they would not exist.
Segregating children has nothing to do with safeguarding. It has everything to do with brutality and sending out a political message. There is no excuse. It is cruel.
If I was to wade into a poor city area in the USA and immediate take all the children away on the basis that we were safeguarding them from abusive, criminal drug taking parents there would rightly be uproar. This is no different. You have to have good grounds to take children from parents.
Likewise taking children from criminals. Hopefully there would be family available to care for them and give them love until the parent was released. I think that is immoral too.
I repeat - I am not condoning illegal immigration. We need borders. I am saying it should be humane and children should not be treated cruelly and used politically to send out messages. It is morally wrong.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 5:20pm
John - the analogy of people breaking into your house does not hold up. It is not the same thing at all. It is emotive and you use it to create the image of immigrants as a threat. They are ordinary people just like you and me. They are looking for a better future for themselves and their family. Do not dehumanise them in this way.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 5:23pm
Mr Liberty - I believe there is a big element of racism in this. It is precisely because these immigrants are brown and have a different culture that they are viewed with such fear. You are using emotive language to build fear and make a point.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 4, 2018 - 5:26pm
Watch the six minute video MEFO posted on gumballs and immigration, Libertine.  
That blows your silly immigration nonsense out of the water.  
How are the stabbings in immigrant rich London?  Khan of Londonistan seems oddly quiet on it.
How about you stay out of American politics.  You don’t know out history, and I, as an American, know your history better than you, 
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 5:29pm
Ryan - child - you need a lesson in humility. What you know isn't worth doodle squat. Your head is too full of Arab garbage and your experience is nil. Grow up and get laid.
Bill Kamps Added Jul 4, 2018 - 5:40pm
opher, I believe you also need a lesson in humility.
You dont know the laws, about which you speak, and you dont the history of our immigration problem.  You just repeat the sensationalism of the media, and say "this is awful" and "that is awful" when the reality is more complex than you can imagine. 
The laws say we can detain children with their parents only a short period of time.  This is not long enough to determine their status.  They come with little documentation and claim asylum. Asylum has to be looked in to, it takes time.  In many cases we dont really know if these are their parents or not.  Many dont have ID papers.  This has to be sorted out.  In the meantime the time runs out for detaining children with their adults.  We can send them back, or we can do what Obama did, and "catch and release", or we can separate them from their parents while things are sorted out.  Yes separating them is cruel, but so is walking to the US from Salvador. It is also cruel to send them back, if they really are in need of asylum. 
Just saying something is cruel is silly because we all know that.  The pressure should be on Congress to solve the problem, not on ICE for trying to deal with an impossible set of laws.
Proclaim Liberty Added Jul 4, 2018 - 5:45pm
Opher -- Some number of the legal immigrants are also "brown", and of other "colours" also, therefore you may *not* play the race card in this argument. The issue has nothing to do with fear of "others"; it is truly a law-and-order security matter. It does have political implications, however, in that one party has tried to claim the loyalty of the illegal contingent by overlooking such indelicacies as their high proportion of violent and drug-related criminality. This historical fact is on record. 
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 5:50pm
Mr Liberty - the fear of being swamped and having your culture threatened is the fear of a different culture. That's racism.
As I previously said - the high rate of criminality is probably a result of how they are treated and their inability, as illegals, to get legitimate work. They are either exploited or gravitate towards crime out of necessity.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 5:53pm
Bill - then the law is an ass and needs changing. Are you really denying that kids are being forcibly taken from their parents? I've watched the videos. It is heartbreaking.
Put in more judges and process the asylum seekers quicker without splitting up families. Stop playing politics with kids. This is nothing more than a ploy to make things as unpleasant as they can for them. We do the same thing over here with our detention centres and it stinks.
Proclaim Liberty Added Jul 4, 2018 - 5:58pm
Criminal behavior is *never* necessary! If it was so easy to jump fences to enter the country illegally, it is just as easy to leave the country to seek better conditions elsewhere. Immigration laws that limit the number to some finite sustainable figure are necessary, because resources are not infinite. This has nothing to do with race. 
Ryan Messano Added Jul 4, 2018 - 6:00pm
Opher is a British libertine, whose own country is a wreck sue to immigration, but he wants to lecture us.  Lol,
Proclaim Liberty Added Jul 4, 2018 - 6:05pm
One minor disagreement, Bill: the immigration laws are not "broken" or unworkable or contradictory. They were designed for legal immigration. If they fail to deal adequately with masses of violators and scofflaws, that is a separate matter beyond their original design. 
Bill Kamps Added Jul 4, 2018 - 6:13pm
then the law is an ass and needs changing. Are you really denying that kids are being forcibly taken from their parents? I've watched the videos. It is heartbreaking.
opher, just because your heart is breaking does not change the law.  There were no cameras on their trip to the US, Im sure that would be heartbreaking to see as well.  Many die, many assaulted, etc. 
Did you see me deny  what is happening? No.  What I said was that this is a complicated problem that  you know little about.  I dont comment on complicated UK problems that I know little about. 
There are only so  many judges, and it takes time to get information from foreign governments.  Their status cant be figured out in a day, asylum seeking is complex.  If it wasnt we would have even more people at our borders.  After the time is up for detaining children with adults, we have two choices, let them free into the US, or send them back.  The third choice is separate the children, while the process works itself out.  The Brits invented bureaucracy, so surely you know something about that.
Would it be better to send them back? because that is an alternative, and the media is already screaming about this possibility because they are asylum seekers and sending them back could be deadly and also cruel.   What the media liked was catch  and release.  We catch  them and let them free in to the US with no accountability.  People eventually got tired of this policy. Trump changed the policy and the media pitched a fit, which you have now picked up on.
None of our choices are good.  Given that, why should we let them free into the US? why not choose what is best for the US people, instead of what is best for the illegal immigrant or asylum seeker? 
Of course the laws need changing.  People have been saying this for 30 years.  Politicians dont always do what we want.  Maybe things are different in the UK, but I doubt it. 
My complaint to you, is that your outrage is misguided and ill-informed.   If you were railing against Congress to fix the laws, I would applaud you. 
Proclaim Liberty Added Jul 4, 2018 - 6:13pm
Opher -- We discussed the definition of racism on another thread. Culture is not race; and resistance to cultural change is not racism, in itself. Neither is resistance to political subversion a form of racism, regardless of who is attempting to induce it. 
Robin the red breasted songster Added Jul 4, 2018 - 6:27pm
Ryan:  On the contrary, the success of the UK, and of America, has been historically based on immigrants.
The UK has been a great place to live and still is, at least for the moment.  I fear for the future however because of the shift to an anti immigrant sentiment following the Brexit vote.   We are being led by the nose and up the garden path by the Little Englanders like Michael Gove.
As someone said, however, "How can we have a special relationship with a country like the USA that imprisons children and separates them from their families?".  We shouldn't.... not until things change at the top.   We should point out, in friendly but firm terms, that such behaviour is unacceptable.
The Statue of Liberty should, I believe, be used as a symbol to remind Trump et al what the country is supposed to be about.   If there is a consensus that the USA no longer welcomes the "huddled masses" then I think that the statue should be dismantled and stored somewhere until that policy changes.   Otherwise it is being rather hypocritical.  
Clearly all of the rhetoric about being the "land of the free" is so much bollocks anyway.   The average American has far fewer freedoms that the average Brit and has done for some time:  Right to roam, healthcare (freedom from health worries), etc etc.  Far higher proportion of the US population behind bars.  Less free from the fear of violent death etc etc.
Yet somehow some Americans seem to believe that they are all so much "freer".   The only ones who are "freer" are the corporations who control their fate.  They have fewer laws and effective agencies to constrain them... making the common man easier to exploit and to treat as just another corporate resource to be used or discarded at will.  None so blind etc...
White Hair'd Added Jul 4, 2018 - 6:30pm
@ opher goodwin-
You and others have made far too many negative comments about the US to address, so I'll just point out one thing:
Today, July 4th, 2018, there were 27 naturalization ceremonies across the nation, as 14,000 people sworn in as citizens.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 7:07pm
Mr Liberty I agree with you. Criminality is never acceptable. We do need to restrict numbers. But the fear of culture being swamped and the way people are treated is the racist element.
We did discuss racism. But I have a wider definition.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 7:09pm
Ryan - keep your juvenile nose out of men's business. You need to visit before you make silly comments. You talk out of your arse. Your life experience is too limited to converse with men.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 4, 2018 - 7:09pm
Nonsense, Robin.  Go read up on Muslim No-Go Zones.  
London is beginning to be the stabbing capital of the world, and you have Londonistans Khan lecturing you poor Britishers to “get used to terrorism”. Lol.  I’m sure you will with Muslims running things.  What a wreck your nation is becoming.
As for children, you and the Democrats in America are the biggest hypocrites.  American Democrats have no problem ripping apart babies in the wombs, particularly black and Latino ones, but the hop up and down like a stuck pig when Trump tries to enforce border security, and temporarily separates kids from their parents.  Funny they don’t have anything to say when the 2 million American criminals are separated from their kids and brought to jail, but if you commit a crime and come here illegally, all of a sudden the liberal reprobates are having a massive conniption.  Lol.  It’s hysterical.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 7:14pm
Bill - I'm sure their journeys are terrible - all the more reason I would suggest to treat them humanely.
This is a discussion forum. We are here to discuss things intelligently. I have a perspective from here that might just be more objective than yours. I see people being treated abominably. I've watched the film. I dare say it is complicated but this situation has worsened because of Trumps policy and encouragement.
I am sure that there are a set of poor choices. What it comes down to is politics and funding. They choose to make conditions nasty deliberately to frighten people off.
I rail against the people that allow government to do this. They need to speak out. They have voted in someone who is applying callous cruelty. Where are the voices?
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 7:18pm
Robin - you have summed it up! My thoughts entirely. These people need to get out more and see a bit of the world. England is a beautiful country but we have the same narrow-minded bigotry that is affecting America. Gove, Boris and Mogg are a bunch of ignorant ideologues.
opher goodwin Added Jul 4, 2018 - 7:20pm
Luther - just a mere 14,000. There was probably more killed on the roads.
I loved living