On Conspiracy Theorists

I recently read this on conspiracy theories:

 

I’ve always wondered if the underlying psychology surrounding conspiracy theory nonsense is a desire to believe that there is some sort of ultimate competent and controlling power in the world. The chaotic nature of everything we see can be frightening, and rationalising at least some of it by assigning it to some sort of illuminati, no matter how evil and despotic, can give comfort to some. It’s very much the same as the basis for religious belief. I find it ironic when occasionally I see some commenter attack religious belief, usually citing some superlative such as ‘mentally challenged’ or ‘stupid’, only to see them go off on a flight of fancy about some even sillier conspiracy theory.

 

Alan Moore agrees, and says many don't like the idea "no one is in control. The world is rudderless." Other reasons I think are dislike of the "official story" or simply getting a grand explanation of evil in the world. Plus it seems to me a lot of conspiracy theories are more exciting, and they get off on being "in the know".

 

I know that prior to learning critical thinking skills, the criteria for me was simply what's more interesting. Do psychic powers exist? Well, it would be cool, so yes. Did JFK get killed by a conspiracy, or some disaffected loser? Well, the former is far more interesting, so it must have been. That, plus I didn't really even know of the skeptical view at the time. These things were simply taken for granted among my "circle" (I have an uncle who believes all this and more-yes, the lizard people too. He gave me a book by David Icke for a birthday present once. That was pretty hard to swallow even then however. We don't really talk any more-it's awkward.).

 

My uncle believes in both aliens and Jesus (though not that they are the same, so far as I know). He claims to have seen aliens, ghosts, and his past lives. Oh, and that the Illuminati tried to kidnap him once, my mom says. Naturally he is also a Truther. It seems these things cluster. Few people are content with just one alternate view.

Comments

Mustafa Kemal Added Jul 3, 2018 - 9:03am
Michael,
re:"I’ve always wondered if the underlying psychology surrounding conspiracy theory nonsense"
 
whenever someone loads a sentence like that you can be sure that they are not honest.  You can stop at that point.
 
Similarly,
re:". Did JFK get killed by a conspiracy, or some disaffected loser? Well, the latter is far more interesting, so it must have been."
 
This is also heaviliy loaded with "loser" but the fatal flaw is the
fallacious logic " the latter is far more interesting, so it must have been.""
 
All you have to do is start looking into it to discover that the lone gunman (not lone disaffected loser) thesis is highly flawed. Then when you crawl down that whole your whole world will open up.
 
Now that you have some
"critical thinking skills" I suggest you start using them; dont take your uncle so seriously,, enjoy the time he has left, and start looking into things. You can both enjoy time with your uncle and develop your critica; thinking skills at the same time. 
 
Mustafa
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Jul 3, 2018 - 8:09pm
Conspiracy Theorist is an epitaph thrown out by the conspirators to discredit the theorist.
James Travil Added Jul 3, 2018 - 11:01pm
If you really want to understand conspiracy theorists, ask the biggest conspiracy theorists of them all, the Clintonites, to explain their Russian hacking conspiracy theories and the overall Russiagate conspiracy theory. It makes zero sense, has zero credability or evidence to support it. But regardless always they act like YOU are crazy (and/or a racist/sexist) if you question their baseless nonsense. Good luck with that crazy! 
Ward Tipton Added Jul 4, 2018 - 9:17am
Truth is tossed out in limited quantities, and often interspersed with talk of Lizard People ruling the world after having taken over the bodies of existing leaders ... or other similar such nonsense. 
 
When I was a very small child, my Mom worked at moving some of the more secured workings of a base from Southern Nevada out into Colorado ... If I spoke of underground interstate systems and underground cities that I saw in my youth, most people would consider it to be a grand conspiracy theory. Oddly, many of these same people would readily admit that the big secret in Area 51 is that there are no longer any big secrets in Area 51 and rather, light, smoke and mirror shows designed for little more than providing a distraction for the tourists, keeping their vision firmly locked on the "left hand" so they do not even look for the "right hand" to see what it is doing. 
 
I will say from first hand experience that not all of those crazy conspiracy theories are quite so crazy though. Mind you, most of my experience has been far more corporeal and terrestrial in nature. 
Morgoth Added Jul 5, 2018 - 12:37am
I blame the X-Files and 24.  Great shows but I think it stirred up the whackadoodles.
The internet made it a lot easier for this kind of thing to sprout.  I now see conspiracy theories sprout up in hours after any major tragedy.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 5, 2018 - 1:20am
Good article.  Drugs, porn, and hellivision have severely impaired the average Americans critical thinking skills, and so conspiracy theories are rampant. 
Stone-Eater Added Jul 5, 2018 - 7:25am
Funny thing is that LATER "conspiracy theories" are often found to be true. Why are some documents being treated secret for 50 years or so ? Because when they're released another generation or two are already in power and do the same bullshit and nobody cares anymore about what happened before :-)
 
BTW: "Conspiracy theories" are often very well researched and aren't distributed by tweets or headlines which don't consider history and the WHO PROFITS question.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 5, 2018 - 7:26am
Ryboy
 
If I would have such a simple world view as you have I would probably sleep better.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 5, 2018 - 7:40am
Jeffrey
 
I ask you a question: How come that the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis and Trump does not want to ban Saudis for getting to the US but the victims of the wars they started, as there are Libyans, Iraqis or Syrians because they are "Muslims" as the Saudis are....? 
 
Because the House of Saud is good friends with the US and lately also with Israel. Means that the Wahhabia Islamists originating from Saudi and supporting IS (which ARE headchoppers) are now best friends with Israel and the US covers or manages it all.
 
Human rights and democracy for all. Well, if the Saudis hang people in public not so bad. They have the oil and a strategic location.
 
Kinda strange, eh ?
 
BTW: Ryboy, get ready to be ordered to Venezuela and fight for democracy there. And don't forget your bible LOL
Ryan Messano Added Jul 5, 2018 - 8:02am
Thank you, Stone.  Wisdom is simple, and it does give peace.
Mustafa Kemal Added Jul 5, 2018 - 8:29am
Anyone heard of the Gulf of Tonkin?
Stone-Eater Added Jul 5, 2018 - 12:15pm
Yep.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 5, 2018 - 12:17pm
Ryboy
 
Wisdom = Life experience. If one allows it.
Michael Added Jul 5, 2018 - 12:37pm
"whenever someone loads a sentence like that you can be sure that they are not honest.  You can stop at that point."

 
Mustafa, if that's the case then a lot of conspiracy theorists are dishonest. I've seen them say much the same thing many times. Even so, I wouldn't have put it this way. I'm quoting someone else here. 
 
This is also heaviliy loaded with "loser" but the fatal flaw is the
fallacious logic " the latter is far more interesting, so it must have been."" 
 
Why is it "heavily loaded" to say Oswald was a loser? The fallacious logic is the point here. My own logic then was highly fallacious. 
 
All you have to do is start looking into it to discover that the lone gunman (not lone disaffected loser) thesis is highly flawed. Then when you crawl down that whole your whole world will open up.
 
I have looked into it at length, and find the conspiracy theories highly flawed. 
 
Now that you have some
"critical thinking skills" I suggest you start using them; dont take your uncle so seriously,, enjoy the time he has left, and start looking into things. You can both enjoy time with your uncle and develop your critica; thinking skills at the same time. 
 
I do use them, don't take him that seriously, and look into things. So there is no need for the advice, thanks. 
Morgoth Added Jul 5, 2018 - 12:44pm
@Stone-Eater:
”Jeffrey
 
I ask you a question: How come that the 9/11 terrorists were Saudis and Trump does not want to ban Saudis for getting to the US but the victims of the wars they started, as there are Libyans, Iraqis or Syrians because they are "Muslims" as the Saudis are....? 
 
Because the House of Saud is good friends with the US and lately also with Israel. Means that the Wahhabia Islamists originating from Saudi and supporting IS (which ARE headchoppers) are now best friends with Israel and the US covers or manages it all.”
 
 
See, you answered your own question.
 
“Human rights and democracy for all. Well, if the Saudis hang people in public not so bad. They have the oil and a strategic location.
 
Kinda strange, eh ?”
 
Again, you answered your own question.
It also doesn’t hurt that Donald the Thud operates some of his businesses in Saudi Arabia.
Morgoth Added Jul 5, 2018 - 12:55pm
@Michael:
 
I’ve also looked into various conspiracy theories, usually in connection with Holocaust denial.
 
Now, do conspiracies exist?  Absolutely.  
 
The problem with the whacked out conspiracy theories is that the implausible far outweighs the plausible.  Many of the theories connected to 9-11 are so far-fetched that they meet themselves coming around the corner.  The ones that actually try to connect to the real world focus on anomalies to the point of distraction without realizing there are always anomalies in any human activity.  There is also never any real proof but CT’s don’t feel the need to give proof.
 
Thanks for the article.  There are several people here on WB that are “Truthers” and we have a couple of Holocaust deniers.  Naturally the deniers think the Jews in the form of the Mossad committed the deed.
Michael Added Jul 5, 2018 - 1:05pm
I agree. No one doubts there are conspiracies, it's just the nature of the claims which is the issue. I'm glad you liked it.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 5, 2018 - 2:13pm
A conspiracy theorist is one who applies the scientific method to events to nullify explanations of them. The scientific method is a method of nullification, not of gaining knowledge.
 
So, for example, someone says that 6 million Jews died in the holocaust. A conspiracy theorist points out there there were less than 6 million Jews liking in Europe/Poland, therefore the theory is impossible. This is EXACTLY what the Scientific Method is.
The conspiracy theorist then tries to come up with an alternative explanation as to why we are indoctrinated with this stuff, then hopes the intelligent opposition will come up with something that discredits the idea of a government/media lying on this scale.
But, instead of this, he gets insults and derogatory remarks. So he is left to conclude that he won the debate and that the opposing side is behaving like a child for losing the debate.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 5, 2018 - 2:13pm
"Liking" should be "living"
Doug Plumb Added Jul 5, 2018 - 2:14pm
See my "Dialectic: snippets: The Scientific Method" for a full explanation of the scientific method and its limitations. See my youtube channel.
Morgoth Added Jul 5, 2018 - 2:31pm
Michael, never mind Doug.  He is WB’s resident cat lady.  He really understands nothing about the history he doesn’t believe in, in fact, he admits he knows nothing about history.  I will come back and beat him down when I get a chance.  Or you can do it if you have a mind.
Mustafa Kemal Added Jul 5, 2018 - 4:13pm
Michael,
re:""whenever someone loads a sentence like that you can be sure that they are not honest.  You can stop at that point."

 Mustafa, if that's the case then a lot of conspiracy theorists are dishonest."
 
Indeed many are, but many arent. If you only read the noodly ones you will get an unbalanced picture.   Its just hard to take people who talk like that seriously. When you quote people who talk that way it makes one suspicious of your motives or your choice of readings.  His or her style was very much like yours, very loaded.
 

Same thing about calling Oswald a "loser". 
Ok, he died, so in that sense he was a loser but then you could say the same about JFK.  The point being it  is vague ridicule, without substantial support, which makes it "loaded"
Anyway, it sounds alot like Trump language, SAD.( that was a joke)
 
 
Furthermore, projecting that fallacious logic like so.
 
" Did JFK get killed by a conspiracy, or some disaffected loser? Well, the former is far more interesting, so it must have been. "
onto people who question the narrative is disengengious. The logic you refer to is fallacious as is the false generalization you are trying to make of it.
 
re:"I have looked into it at length, and find the conspiracy theories highly flawed. "
 
Now, you are beginning, only just  beginning to hint at something reasonable and interesting. You could present examples  of the flaws like how sensible the ballistics is or that it was extremely reasonable to have Allen Dulles, who was fired by JFK, and for which there is alot of evidence pointing to him as partially responsible, run the Warren commission.  Then you could make a reasonable case that the thug Jack Ruby was so upset that they killed his beloved JFK that he just had to take out Oswald. You could talk about how reasonable it is for 
WB7 to simply fall down vertically on 9-11.
Instead you talk about your uncle and aliens and  the fact that
"We don't really talk any more-it's awkward." 
 
Have you read Plausible Denial ? You might find the legal case discussed in their interesting.
It would be interesting to hear your commentary on that. Not once in that whole book did I find an adhominem, overstatement, the use of vague ridicule language.  I
 
Mustafa
 
Morgoth Added Jul 5, 2018 - 4:21pm
Sorry, Mustafa.  I did read a lot on JFK at one time.  I read books on various CT’s regarding the whole affair.  In the end I came back to Oswald.  There is some plausible information regarding Organized Crime possibly being involved but nothing conclusive.
 
As for 9-11, terrorists committed those attacks.  That’s it.
Mustafa Kemal Added Jul 5, 2018 - 4:38pm
Jeffrey, you dont have to apologize. Its ok that you have a different opinion, I dont mind.  In fact, I read many of your comments with pleasure.
 
But this article was  about
"I’ve always wondered if the underlying psychology surrounding conspiracy theory nonsense"
and
"Did JFK get killed by a conspiracy, or some disaffected loser? Well, the former is far more interesting, so it must have been."
 
and I have read much that does NOT fit this description.
 
I dont like to read "nonsense" and I dont think "the former is far more interesting, so it must have been". Funny, this article actually reminds me of bad conspiracy stuff.   If the ones you read do fit this description , then I suggest you might want to look at different source material. 
 
Mustafa
Doug Plumb Added Jul 5, 2018 - 5:11pm
Michael, Never mind Jeffrey, he has been indoctrinated with dialectical materialism and thinks the world can only be explained in terms of observations. He thinks is being being scientific and logical, but leave him alone anyways. He has kind of a thin skin.
Mustafa Kemal Added Jul 5, 2018 - 5:49pm
Michael, pay attention both Doug and Jeffrey, they both have alot to offer
Doug Plumb Added Jul 5, 2018 - 6:10pm
Jeffrey, throw Mustafa a kiss for that- from both of us.
Michael Added Jul 5, 2018 - 6:33pm
Indeed many are, but many arent. If you only read the noodly ones you will get an unbalanced picture.   Its just hard to take people who talk like that seriously. When you quote people who talk that way it makes one suspicious of your motives or your choice of readings.  His or her style was very much like yours, very loaded.
 
I never said they were all dishonest, Mustafa. There my point was that you shouldn't get so hung up about this one word. You may of course dismiss everything I've said based on that. I don't think it would be very logical though. 
 
Same thing about calling Oswald a "loser". 
Ok, he died, so in that sense he was a loser but then you could say the same about JFK.  The point being it  is vague ridicule, without substantial support, which makes it "loaded"
Anyway, it sounds alot like Trump language, SAD.( that was a joke)
 
I called Oswald a loser, because he's not exactly someone who achieved a lot. That's all. If you think he killed JFK, then he achieved at least one thing (not good, but even so). Obviously you don't think he did even that.  
 
Furthermore, projecting that fallacious logic like so.
 
I described my own fallacious logic here. It's not projecting. 
 
Now, you are beginning, only just  beginning to hint at something reasonable and interesting. You could present examples  of the flaws like how sensible the ballistics is or that it was extremely reasonable to have Allen Dulles, who was fired by JFK, and for which there is alot of evidence pointing to him as partially responsible, run the Warren commission.  Then you could make a reasonable case that the thug Jack Ruby was so upset that they killed his beloved JFK that he just had to take out Oswald. You could talk about how reasonable it is for 
WB7 to simply fall down vertically on 9-11.
Instead you talk about your uncle and aliens and  the fact that
"We don't really talk any more-it's awkward." 
 
Have you read target="_blank">Plausible Denial ? You might find the legal case discussed in their interesting.
It would be interesting to hear your commentary on that. Not once in that whole book did I find an adhominem, overstatement, the use of vague ridicule language.

 
I wouldn't do that, because those claims don't convince me, nor was this article about that specific conspiracy theory. There are many books about this, and no I have not read them all. No one could-they would fill a library.
 
Have you read the work of people who don't buy this, or 9/11 theories? Whether or not they contain insults (though I'm against that), there may be knowledge to gain there. 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jul 5, 2018 - 10:02pm
Michael, 
 
re:"I wouldn't do that, because those claims don't convince me"
How do you know what those claims are? if you havent read it?
 
re:"Have you read the work of people who don't buy this, or 9/11 theories?"
Im happy to read anything that appears to have something to offer. 
If you have anything to recommend, I would love to see it.  In general I dont read things that simply support what I already think happened.
 
As for reading works laden with adhominems or other logical fallacies, I have struggled to parse the info from the nonsense from some but usually it is so much work that I give up.  I shouldnt have to be a detective and sift through the authors lies to find a truth.  There is alot that is not like that out there, so I dont see the need. 
 
Mustafa
Doug Plumb Added Jul 5, 2018 - 10:22pm
This bears repeating: "Conspiracy Theorist is an epitaph thrown out by the conspirators to discredit the theorist."
 
Now I have to at least go and look at myself in the mirror for agreeing with Jeffrey Gilbert once again. Maybe there is a visible reason...
Morgoth Added Jul 6, 2018 - 12:07am
Alrighty then:
@Doug Plumb:
”So, for example, someone says that 6 million Jews died in the holocaust. A conspiracy theorist points out there there were less than 6 million Jews liking in Europe/Poland, therefore the theory is impossible. This is EXACTLY what the Scientific Method is.”
 
Here’s the problem, Doug.  You are wrong from the get go.
 
The Nazis themselves totaled up the amount of Jews in Europe as 11,000,000:
Look, Doug, it’s real history. Don’t worry it won’t bite.
 
Their numbers were probably off a bit but the 1933 Polish census placed the number of Jews at around 3.3 million in Poland proper.  That’s about 1/2 the victims right there.  
 
 
You’ll note that the Nazis placed the number of Jews in the USSR at 5,000,000.  Now, not all of those Jews fell into the areas the Germans occupied.  If I remember correctly from “Holocaust in the Soviet Union” Arad placed the number of Jews in the German sphere at about 1.5 million, of which 900,000 to 1,000,000 died.  
 
The next group is the Hungarian Jews, the Nazis gave a number of 700,000+ (that’s actually too low) of which about 300,000 died.  The rest of the victims come from various and sundry European countries.  Not all of them died in gas chambers, a great many of them died from bullets, malnutrition, disease, mistreatment, etc.
 

“The conspiracy theorist then tries to come up with an alternative explanation as to why we are indoctrinated with this stuff, then hopes the intelligent opposition will come up with something that discredits the idea of a government/media lying on this scale.”
 
Maybe you should spend some reading an actual book.

“But, instead of this, he gets insults and derogatory remarks. So he is left to conclude that he won the debate and that the opposing side is behaving like a child for losing the debate.”
 
No, I just find you funny.
Luther Wu Added Jul 6, 2018 - 12:36am
They...
are behind it.
Michael Added Jul 6, 2018 - 1:53am
Doug, what would you prefer to be called? You are theorizing conspiracies as the alternative to the "official story" no? 
Michael Added Jul 6, 2018 - 2:01am
How do you know what those claims are? if you havent read it?
 
Mustafa, as I said before, so many books on the JFK assassination exist it isn't physically possible for me to have read them all. I have read a summary of Plausible Denial though, and it doesn't seem much different from previous works whose theories were implausible to me. 
 
Im happy to read anything that appears to have something to offer. If you have anything to recommend, I would love to see it.  In general I dont read things that simply support what I already think happened. 
 
Regarding JFK, I'd recommend John McAdams website http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm. That primarily changed my mind. Vincent Bugliosi wrote a very long book about this too, Reclaiming History. Gerald Posner wrote one called Case Closed. There are some documentaries too, though I can't remember the names at the moment (it's been a while). Most websites and books that I've seen are pro-conspiracy, so it's pretty slim pickings on the opposite side. Your reading habits are to be commended. 
 
As for reading works laden with adhominems or other logical fallacies, I have struggled to parse the info from the nonsense from some but usually it is so much work that I give up.  I shouldnt have to be a detective and sift through the authors lies to find a truth.  There is alot that is not like that out there, so I dont see the need. 
Ironically, your comments on many works express my experience with a lot of conspiracy books. Don't get me wrong though, I've got no liking for illogic either, let alone lies. Too many times people simply regurgitate false data without checking anything. 
Mark Hunter Added Jul 6, 2018 - 4:59am
That's exactly what they want you to think.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 6, 2018 - 7:22am
re "Doug, what would you prefer to be called? You are theorizing conspiracies as the alternative to the "official story" no? "
 
  No, I'm simply saying the official story is impossible. Its Jewish population records from both before and after the war that make the story impossible. Also, people from my side of things, and I haven't checked yet, say that nothing about a holocaust was mentioned in the Neuremberg trials.
  Jeffrey, you believe Osama did 9-11. So when you read history, you ignore facts that conflict with your beliefs.
  One does not have to know history to ascertain truth of it. Philosophy does just fine. If you wan t to make an assertion, you need to know history so someone like me doesn't tear it to bits with a bit of common sense.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 6, 2018 - 7:23am
I am properly a skeptic. I do not believe anything until I have a story that cannot be disputed.
I do not have a belief regarding 9-11, I just know what could not have happened.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 6, 2018 - 7:24am
Jeffrey, I don't read history. I'm reading art theory after jurisprudence.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 6, 2018 - 7:24am
- actually Jewish art theory and aesthetics.
James E. Unekis Added Jul 6, 2018 - 2:28pm
Michael,
 
I treat most conspiracy theories as simple entertainment; often laughing at the arguments.
 
Occasionally you find one that merits further investigation but for the most part they are kind of like adult comics.
 
I would think in the case of, say, shapeshifters, that the proponents are fully aware that they are simply providing entertainment.
Michael Added Jul 6, 2018 - 6:35pm
Doug, did you read the link Jeff posted? It shows that the Nazis themselves calculated there were around 11 million Jews in Europe then. So no, not impossible. 
Michael Added Jul 6, 2018 - 6:35pm
James, perhaps they are just entertaining. If so they don't let up the act though.
Mustafa Kemal Added Jul 6, 2018 - 7:27pm
Michael, sometimes I come up with a  new one. 
 
I have this theory that so much of the noodly conspiracy theory is actually controlled opposition. It is there precisely to discredit those questioning the media/gov disseminated narrative.
 
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jul 6, 2018 - 7:27pm
James,
re:"Occasionally you find one that merits further investigation but for the most part they are kind of like adult comics.
 "
certainly you dont doubt the Niberu story!
Michael Added Jul 6, 2018 - 8:26pm
I've heard that Mustafa, and all the more reason to exercise critical thinking then.
Mustafa Kemal Added Jul 6, 2018 - 8:53pm
Michael,
re:" all the more reason to exercise critical thinking then."
here we are in agreement.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 6, 2018 - 8:55pm
re "The Nazis themselves totaled up the amount of Jews in Europe as 11,000,000:
target="_blank">Look, Doug, it’s real history. Don’t worry it won’t bite. "
 
They really had good font back then didn't they ? I wonder how that figure could be when only 16 million Jews world wide. Is it real history because it says
"Revisions to the Nuremberg text were made for clarification and correction."
 
You do know what revised means, right ?
 
You know what "screwing around with evidence means, right?"

 
Doug Plumb Added Jul 6, 2018 - 8:56pm
You guys that read history should try reading philosophy and law, this way you won't be so easily duped.
Michael Added Jul 6, 2018 - 9:48pm
It isn't the original obviously Doug. Where do you get that number anyway? Is it impossible that most Jews were in Europe at the time? As to revisions, it doesn't mean they made this all up. I suspect though nothing will convince you.
Morgoth Added Jul 6, 2018 - 11:23pm
OK, Doug.
Here:
Original German
 
How’s your German?  I admit mine isn’t great though I’ve learned a bit here and there.
I gave a translation because that’s what I use.  However I aim to please so if you need the original German you got it.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:45am
re "Where do you get that number anyway?" Jewish sources. I have an essay here "Why The Jews Faked The Holocaust", there is a link to one of the sources, a photo of a Jewish encyclopedia or almanac.
 
re "I suspect though nothing will convince you. " Truth is what convinces me. When you start looking at individual facts regarding the holocaust, they always turn out to be lies.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:53am
re "Here:
target="_blank">Original German"
 
If you add countries like Bulgaria, Finland, Turkey, Ireland, Sweden, and Russia plus others you may get 11 million. Were the NAZI's shipping people by train from Ireland and Greenland to be loaded into gas chambers and executed? These records do not look out of line with about 3 million Jews in all of Europe.
 
Were they shipping people from Russia, where anti-semitism was illegal to be gassed in Poland? If so, why didn't they take the train on the way in rather than walk through all that snow?

 
Doug Plumb Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:59am
re "How’s your German?  I admit mine isn’t great though I’ve learned a bit here and there."
 
I can't speak or read German any better than an English two year old except for little bits I learned from Kant. But they make numbers the same as us and you can figure out countries like Greenland, Ireland and Poland from that list.
Jewish population records may vary, depending on criteria that is used in determining who is or is not Jewish. What matters here is the change of populations between the time before and after the war.
2.2 million Jews in general government. Hmmm is this because Jews are so much smarter than everyone else ? When I see that picture of Rebbi Schneerson with the box of Saturn on his head, I really wonder.
Jews are being used. The same propaganda techniques used on us were likely tried and tested first on the smaller Jewish population. They are as much victims of Judaism as anyone else.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 7, 2018 - 7:02am
re "As to revisions, it doesn't mean they made this all up. I suspect though nothing will convince you. "
 
Numbers convince me, not the stories of history.
Autumn Cote Added Jul 7, 2018 - 7:33am
Doug,
It's against the rules to post more than two comments in a row.  
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 8:47am
Autumn
 
Since when ? If I make a comment and I have to correct it after I do it with a following comment. Not all of us know how to get back, delete the foregoing comment and rewrite it. Especially when it's a long one which hasn't been copied somewhere in memory or on disk. Please rethink that rule.
Stephen Hunter Added Jul 7, 2018 - 9:00am
Great topic Michael, and one with a lot of discussion that needs to happen. I believe that where there is smoke there is fire, perhaps not to the extent one may think, but usually something there. Like the cannabis thing, there is no doubt that the myths and untruths perpetrated around this, were and are fostered by Big Pharma. 
We all need someone to blame, and conspiracy theories feed this need. 
James E. Unekis Added Jul 7, 2018 - 10:22am
Mustafa,
re: "certainly you dont doubt the Niberu story!"
 
Certainly not.  After all Nancy Lieder is in direct contact with aliens through an implant in her brain.  With that type of proof who could doubt?   Lol
Morgoth Added Jul 7, 2018 - 11:26am
@Doug Plumb:
”If you add countries like Bulgaria, Finland, Turkey, Ireland, Sweden, and Russia plus others you may get 11 million.”
 
That’s exactly how you get to 11 million.
 
“Were the NAZI's shipping people by train from Ireland and Greenland to be loaded into gas chambers and executed? These records do not look out of line with about 3 million Jews in all of Europe.”
 
Are you literally incapable of comprehending anything I link to you?  Anything?
Doug, FFS, most of the Jews on earth lived in Europe at the time of the war and most of those Jews lived in Eastern Europe.  Why?  Because in centuries past Eastern Europe showed more tolerance towards Jews than Western Europe.  This changed over time but there was still a huge Jewish presence in Eastern Europe.  Most of the victims of the Holocaust were Eastern European Jews for that exact reason.  The Germans recognized that.

 “Were they shipping people from Russia, where anti-semitism was illegal to be gassed in Poland?”
 
No but the Germans murdered Soviet Jews where they captured them.  
 
“If so, why didn't they take the train on the way in rather than walk through all that snow?”
 
OMG.  
Doug.....takes deep breath, reminds himself that Doug is challenged in many ways......the Russians used a different track gauge than the rest of Europe.  In order to use Russian rail systems the Germans needed to convert them to use standard European stock.  Also, the Russian rail system was not as extensive. They also didn’t have extensive roads leading into the Russian interior.  There’s also the small matter of Red Army resistance and Stalin’s scorched policy.  
 
 
All these things combined to slow the German advance into the USSR.  Hitler also interfered with the battle plans of his generals that might just have led to the capture of Moscow before Fall.  Though I’m not sure this would’ve made any difference.
Morgoth Added Jul 7, 2018 - 11:31am
@Doug Plumb:
”But they make numbers the same as us and you can figure out countries like Greenland, Ireland and Poland from that list.”
 
Yes you can.  I also made it easier by providing an English translation.

“Jewish population records may vary, depending on criteria that is used in determining who is or is not Jewish.”
 
That is very true Doug.
 
“What matters here is the change of populations between the time before and after the war.
2.2 million Jews in general government. Hmmm is this because Jews are so much smarter than everyone else ?”
 
Doug, do you know what the General Government was?
Doug Plumb Added Jul 7, 2018 - 11:50am
The general government was a government - I don't know what but I know governments wield power. I would like to know what general government means, if it isn't like today where you have all kinds of government administrators like social workers.
 
I really don't see how that list of population is out of line with other estimates of around 3 million in Germany/Poland "smaller" Europe.
Jas the Mace Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:55pm
The term "conspiracy theorist" was invented by the CIA to shut down any dissent against the official JFK lone shooter lie. We have the CIA memo from back then instructing the media to use it. It's a slanderous label, nothing more.
Morgoth Added Jul 7, 2018 - 1:06pm
@Doug Plumb:
”The general government was a government - I don't know what but I know governments wield power. I would like to know what general government means, if it isn't like today where you have all kinds of government administrators like social workers.”
 
No, it was what the Germans called the area of Poland they didn’t annex....  
 
Doug needs to read a history book
Jas the Mace Added Jul 7, 2018 - 1:09pm
@Jeffrey: Nuemberg was one huge fat lie. My professor called it "The revenge of the Jews" because most of the interrogations were done by Jews who fled Germany. They tortured the shit out of these guys. They signed confessions in english when they didn't speak, read or write english. Really inspires confidence in finding the truth with those documents written by the victor.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 7, 2018 - 3:15pm
re "Nuemberg was one huge fat lie." Like everything else. And Jeffrey, that link you posted is another population argument for my side.
Morgoth Added Jul 7, 2018 - 3:49pm
You didn’t read what the link actually said, right, Doug?
Morgoth Added Jul 7, 2018 - 3:51pm
@Jas the Mace:
”Nuemberg was one huge fat lie.”
 
It was?
 
“My professor called it "The revenge of the Jews" because most of the interrogations were done by Jews who fled Germany.”
 
Sounds like your professor is a moron.  If you still know him you can tell him that with my regards.
 
“They tortured the shit out of these guys.”
 
They did?
 
“They signed confessions in english when they didn't speak, read or write english.”
 
Who are you talking about?  Which prisoner?
 
“Really inspires confidence in finding the truth with those documents written by the victor.”
 
Sounds like you need a history along with Doug.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 8, 2018 - 7:15am
Guys
 
Concentrate on today so that the mistakes (or crimes) won't be repeated. But then.....remember Ruanda 1994....
Doug Plumb Added Jul 8, 2018 - 7:54am
re "You didn’t read what the link actually said, right, Doug? "
 
No, I told you I can't read German, but I can read numbers and see that those are population records, and not after the war, and there wasn't 6 million Jews in Europe, which was the discussion we were having. I'm not all that interested in opinions or what puppet officials "thought" on either side.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 8, 2018 - 9:01am
Jeffrey, The Jews are the Master Race, same as what you think Hitler was, Jews openly say it. But you do not hear what you don't want to hear or anything that contradicts your world view. I don't believe anything, I need evidence, then I know.
Morgoth Added Jul 9, 2018 - 9:25am
@Doug Plumb:
”No, I told you I can't read German,”
 
That’s why I gave you an English translation.
 
“but I can read numbers and see that those are population records”
 
Yes.
 
 
“and not after the war, and there wasn't 6 million Jews in Europe,”
 
Doug, FFS, apparently you can’t read numbers.  Those are German records.  
 
OK, fine.  Show me your proof that there weren’t 6 million Jews in Europe.  I assume you are basing this off of...something.  I hope.  Maybe.
 
I’ll help you, this is Europe:
Doug, this is called a map. This is a map of what is called Europe.
 
Now, that map includes what is called North Africa.  That is to the South of what is called the Mediterranean.  You can ignore North Africa, we only want everything to the North of that.  Let me know if you need further instruction.
 
 
“I'm not all that interested in opinions”
 
How is this an opinion?
 
“or what puppet officials "thought" on either side.”
 
Doug, they needed to know how many Jews they were dealing with.
 
Why were these men puppets?
 
Why am I asking Doug questions?  I honestly don’t know.
Morgoth Added Jul 9, 2018 - 9:30am
Doug Plumb Added Jul 11, 2018 - 1:34pm
I was looking at the same numbers you were Jeffrey, I just don't think Ireland is a part of the Europe that was supposedly holocausted of Jews. I look at the numbers and see about 3 million.
Morgoth Added Jul 11, 2018 - 2:39pm
They were looking at all of Europe, Doug.  You need to have your eyes examined or take off your denier glasses.  Read a history book.
 
Let me try and explain this to you:
 
The territory the Germans controlled changed over time.  They controlled Western Europe by the end of 1940 and a great swath of territory in Eastern Europe by the end of 1942.  They also occupied Italy in 1943.  When the Soviets started driving the Germans out they lost territory in the USSR but occupied Hungary in 1944.  So the amount of Jews they had under their control changed.  Most of the victims are from the USSR and Poland but there are also large numbers of victims from Hungary, France, the Netherlands and Belgium.
 
 
Doug Plumb Added Jul 12, 2018 - 10:35am
I'm aware of the geography and what you have said above. You are not going to be able to convince me that, during their Blitzkreig, they were rounding up Jews and sending them back to Poland to be gassed.
The holocaust has more holes in it than swiss cheese, and to plug up the holes with this kind of logic is crazy.
You cannot escape the fact that there was no significant change in Jewish population between before and after the war, according to may records.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 12, 2018 - 10:36am
re "Read a history book." Read a law book Jeffrey. You need to learn what "evidence" is.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 12, 2018 - 10:36am
"may records" should be "many records"
Morgoth Added Jul 12, 2018 - 12:53pm
@Doug Plumb:
”I'm aware of the geography and what you have said above.”
 
No you aren’t.
 
“You are not going to be able to convince me that, during their Blitzkreig, they were rounding up Jews and sending them back to Poland to be gassed.”
 
I wouldn’t because that’s not what happened.  The round up of French Jews only started in the Summer of 1942, two years after Germany occupied France.


“You cannot escape the fact that there was no significant change in Jewish population between before and after the war, according to may records.”
 
Fact by who?  Show me a link so I can see how those records were compiled.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 12, 2018 - 3:58pm
The link that I have shown you is not perfect, you have pointed this out. The bottom line is that these photos of old books look like photo's of old books for lot of reasons. This is not html code, someone would have to be a paintshop genius to put this fake together, if it is a fake. I'm sure it is not. But other things that I am sure of add up with this.
  If the holocaust actually happened there would be indisputable evidence.
  But here I'm arguing with a guy that thinks Osama blew up the WTC's. That turns out to be the case too often with my adversaries on this argument, and while the holocaust may be questionable, 9-11 really isn't. You believing that Osama blew up the WTC's raises a lot of questions in my mind about you are your perception of reality.
  But propaganda is powerful, and it works very well on intelligent people. That is the thing you have to wrap your head around. You have serious cognitive dissomance, just based on your 9-11 views.
Morgoth Added Jul 12, 2018 - 7:39pm
@Doug Plumb:
”The target="_blank">link that I have shown you is not perfect, you have pointed this out. The bottom line is that these photos of old books look like photo's of old books for lot of reasons. This is not html code, someone would have to be a paintshop genius to put this fake together, if it is a fake. I'm sure it is not. But other things that I am sure of add up with this.”
 
Except you can’t tell me how they came up with those numbers, Doug.  We don’t know how often those books are or what data they used.  This is what makes them extremely questionable in my eyes.
 
Frankly the various almanac canards are old hat.  Almanacs are not considered reliable on anything.  
 
You need to do better, Doug.

  “If the holocaust actually happened there would be indisputable evidence.”
 
LOL, sure.  
 
Doug the simple issue is you form ideas in your head based upon your warped worldview.  The telling thing about you is your absolute willingness to believe any whackadoodle conspiracy theory that comes your way.  You are no different than any CT I’ve seen but you are sometimes even whackier.  I only saw a couple of nuke deniers on-line and I honestly thought they were joking.  With you I know you really believe there are no such things as nukes.
 

“You have serious cognitive dissomance, just based on your 9-11 views.”
 
 
:O :) :D LOL
Ward Tipton Added Jul 13, 2018 - 2:15am
While not part of the numbers, I personally believe the pictures my grandfather brought back with him from WWII. I will not get into the numbers games but the camps and the killings were very real. Though in all honesty, the numbers I have read include some thirteen million people, including seven million not of Jewish descent. 
Michael Added Jul 13, 2018 - 3:12am
Ward, the main estimate seems to be about eleven million overall, with approximately six million being Jewish. However, it may be that the exact figure would never be known. 
Morgoth Added Jul 13, 2018 - 2:21pm
It depends on how you view the causes of death.  I’ve seen numbers much higher than 11 or 13 million, though to be honest some of that looks politically motivated.
 
 
Michael Added Jul 13, 2018 - 6:08pm
You mean they include people who died indirectly such as by diseases or starvation? Is that what you mean Jeffrey?
Morgoth Added Jul 13, 2018 - 7:21pm
Yes, Michael.  
 
The “11 million” seems to come from Simon Wiesenthal arbitrarily coming up with 5 million additional deaths of non-Jews in order to make the Holocaust more accessible to non-Jews.  The reality is that number seems much higher depending on cause of death.  
 
 
An example is the death of around 2 million Red Army POWs from the Summer of 1941 until the Spring of 1942.  Another million or so died during the course of their captivity.  I’ve seen numbers of dead for the USSR totaling some 27 million but I think that’s too high.  The USSR suffered disproportionately to other countries except for Poland who lost 3 million Jews and up to 1.5 million non-Jews.
 
The problem is are we considering death from indirect causes?  
 
Sorry, my phone is getting ready to die.  I may just write an article about it for you.
Michael Added Jul 13, 2018 - 7:24pm
I thought these are people directly murdered by the Nazis in death camps. As for the rest, many Soviet Jews were murdered as well, and Slavs deliberately starved to death as part of the hunger plan to clear up the area for later German settlement. 
Morgoth Added Jul 14, 2018 - 11:13am
About half of the Jewish dead died in camps with the majority of those Jews dying in the dedicated extermination camps of Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Auschwitz-Birkenau (though Birkenau was also a labor camp, transit camp and sorting camp).  Majdanek sort of operated the same way as Birkenau but on a much lower scale.
 
The Einsatzgruppen, SS Cavalry and the Order Police shot about a million Jews on the Eastern Front between 1941-1943 with some limited actions until 1945.  There were also death marches where Jews died of hunger, gunshots and maltreatment.  The rest died of hunger, disease and maltreatment in the various ghettos the Nazis set up.
 
 
Morgoth Added Jul 14, 2018 - 11:16am
Michael Added Jul 14, 2018 - 2:53pm
Yes, many people forget the "Holocaust of bullets" which took place in the USSR.