Should parents who don't lock up their guns be prosecuted?

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In parts of Southern California it's illegal for unlocked guns to be left where minors might be able to get to them and recently a few dads were charged with breaking that law after police searched their homes.  They now face serious jail time and fines, even though it's extremely unlikely their guns would have ever been used criminally.

 

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/2-Dads-Charged-With-Unlawful-Gun-Storage-After-Sons-Make-Threats-476590213.html

 

Most people I know who hunt and shoot regularly have a lot of guns and many who have older kids, like the 17 year old in the story I provided a link for, have been hunting and shooting with their kids for many years by the time they are 17.  Most quit locking up their guns years ago, after they became convinced their kids knew the rules and how to handle them safely.

 

In these cases someone claimed the minors had made threats, prompting the police searches of the parents houses.

 

The reasons laws requiring firearms be locked up have been transitioning from simple safety, (we don't want a child to accidentally shoot one), to our fanatical desire to make guns totally inaccessible to criminals.  Millions of gun owners who regularly shoot with their kids don't just have accessible guns, their kids own guns.  My parents gave me a semi auto 22 rifle when I was 12.  I began reloading bullets when I was 13, and was camping by myself and with friends in bear country with a 357 when I was 14.   Half my friends and their kids bagged their first deer before they were 16.

 

Lets face it most kids can buy a hacksaw at the 99 cent store and cut the lock off a gun by the time they are 14.  Throwing a dad in prison because they have an unlocked gun at home is a standard that only makes sense if we are trying to criminalize more gun owners, even those who have done nothing wrong.  Kids say stupid things all the time, that doesn't make their gun owning parents criminals.

Comments

Ryan Messano Added Jul 29, 2018 - 12:22pm
Parents didn't lock up their guns prior to gun regulations in 1934, but we taught the Bible in schools back then.  The schools should be prosecuted for removing the Bible. 
Bill Kamps Added Jul 29, 2018 - 1:23pm
Rusty, I think like many things, it depends.  Laws are not absolutes.
 
A person can be charged with murder, manslaughter or nothing at all if they kill someone with a car. 
 
Recently a young child(under 5) killed himself with a gun because his dad left the gun laying on the couch.  That is more irresponsible than if a 14 year old cuts the gun lock with a hack saw.  Circumstances matter.
 
Giving a prosecutor the option to charge a parent with negligence, when a child uses a parents gun, does not mean it HAS to be negligence.  Circumstances matter. 
 
If we cannot trust the prosecutors to bring cases that make sense, if we cannot trust the judges and juries to apply the law as it pertains to the circumstances, then the law will fail. 
 
You asked a yes or no question, and so if gun owners cant trust the legal system, then  you should answer the question no.  If you can trust the legal system, yes may prompt more parents to be responsible.  Personally I dont care.
 
Thomas Sutrina Added Jul 29, 2018 - 1:52pm
Dozens of small children are shot each year by guns that are load and not properly stored.  Children seem to get into everything that is not purposefully planed.  Children die in swimming pools every year.   Our society says that parents should know better,  but government and society have become more lax.  The logical rule that didn't need laws decades ago because society demanded it now have to be backed up by laws that spell out what society has set as it's standards.
Jeff Michka Added Jul 29, 2018 - 2:08pm
Ah, Rusted Smith is back with a count winner article highlighting his John Waynism to make up for his expressed fears of Hispanic "invasions," and without guns at ready, he'd be overrun, his family tied up by their feet and stuffed full of tacos until they wave Mexican FLAGS.  CAN'T OBEY LAWS, SINCE THEY "DON'T APPLY" TO JOHN Wanyes like ol Rusted.
Dino Manalis Added Jul 29, 2018 - 4:14pm
 Parents are responsible for their children.  You have to educate them about guns, but firearms should be locked up, just to be safe.
Rusty Smith Added Jul 29, 2018 - 4:26pm
Bill Kamps I wish that gun laws like the one being discussed were enforced with tempered judgement that is not how many cities and courts look at those cases.  Many just want to be seen as "enforcers" and are more interested in how many such cases they can say they successfully prosecuted, without any consideration for what makes sense.  
 
I don't know if the 17 year old's dad is responsible or not, but at 17 his kid could be in the armed forces and certainly could overcome most gun locks if he was so inclined.  I know we want to stop crime, but at 17 if his kid is criminally inclined, I doubt a gun lock is going to stop him.  Think about it, the 17 year old kid this dad is responsible for permitting his gun to be accessible to, might be on leave from the Marines. 
 
This "safety" law isn't stupid when it's applied to young children, and most responsible parents don't need a law to stop them from limiting their young children's access to dangerous things including knives, dangerous chemicals, drugs, and even guns. 
 
Making a law that puts well intended parents in jail for having a gun in their house that is accessible to a 17 year old kid whose been taught how to handle them, is not any more necessary than one that would require parents to lock up their car keys, or liquor.  
Rusty Smith Added Jul 29, 2018 - 4:32pm
Thomas Sutrina our government is trying to become our nannie, telling all of us what we can do even in cases where it may not make sense.  Think about the fact that in one case the dad will probably end up going to jail and losing his job, over an incident where his gun was never abused by anyone. 
 
His 17 year old kid could have bought his own gun without his parents permission if he lived in another state.
Flying Junior Added Jul 29, 2018 - 4:33pm
Considering that both men had sons that were making credible threats of school shootings, I see no reason not to bring the men into court to answer to a judge.
 
Maybe you think that kids bringing loaded guns to school to shoot their schoolmates is no big deal.  Law enforcement takes these types of threats seriously.  And keep in mind this is Los Angeles California.  This is not where these types of offenses are dealt with with a stern warning.
 
The men do not face prison time.  Jail time is easier than prison time.  I wouldn't be surprised if the judges might impose a short jail term from two days to two weeks and probably some hefty fines along with probation.
 
Why not?  These laws are in place to protect the public.  They wouldn't have much teeth if they were not enforced.  Enforcement will very likely get much more serious as the public and the court system sees more of these cases in the future. 
 
These careless men were caught with their pants down.  One has to wonder what is going on with the way they raised their sons that they would make such reckless threats on school grounds.
 
If you live in an area that does not have these types of laws and you trust your sons to act in a rational way towards weapons, I guess the only danger is theft of the weapons by burglars.
 
A lot of gun guys take weapon storage quite seriously as well.  I have heard of people with multiple bio-metric gun safes in several rooms of their homes with rapid access to firepower if needed.
Thomas Sutrina Added Jul 29, 2018 - 4:39pm
I agree that "government is trying to become our nannie" but that is because the socialism to gain control of the government has to first create chaos that the 'socialist' can remedy and return to order.   As simple understanding of communism and a study of nations that have converted to socialist state will show this process.
 
So when a government destroys the the tools used to create order and peer pressure then to obtain the chaos they want and not the chaos they do not want, they have to impose laws.  There you have it in a nut shell. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Jul 29, 2018 - 4:42pm
Rusty your presenting an example or examples and I am trying to give the macro view of what and why it is happening.  Your showing us that chaos is being created.  
Rusty Smith Added Jul 29, 2018 - 4:43pm
Dino Manalis I agree when it comes to children of any age who don't know how to handle guns, but once they get older and do know what to do with a gun, I don't think this law should be applied.
 
16 year old children can buy their own guns in some states.  If they did and moved here, their parents would have to lock it up until they became 18 or be just as guilty as the dad in this example.
 
All my siblings and I had our own guns when we were 12, I learned how to reload when I was 13, and at 14 owned my own 357 mag.  Among my friends that's not unusual and none of my friends ever got in trouble with a gun.
 
By the time I was 15 there was no gun lock I couldn't defeat rather easily if I didn't mind breaking it. 
 
When safety was involved my folks were reasonable and my access to everything I might have abused, including matches, prescription drugs and guns was tightly controlled until I was responsible enough to be given access.  The age of responsibility varies tremendously depending on maturity rates, handling experince and mental stability, which are not things the government can or should be making arbitrary rules about.
 
Saying a 17 year old's dad should go to jail, but it's ok if their 18, is arbitrary and irresponsible.  Some kids are ready much sooner, and others never will be.  I say let the parents, who know their kids better than any politician, make that determination.
Jeff Michka Added Jul 29, 2018 - 4:52pm
Rusted Smith might be upset with the gun lock laws because without a key and access will those kids be able to mow down the "brown hoards" of the MS13 Grand Army when they swarm the "good white people.?"  Nope, no gun law is sane, right Rusted?
Ryan Messano Added Jul 29, 2018 - 5:13pm
Feel free to help Michka out by deleting his comments.  It's good for him and WB.  It helps him understand no one wants to hear his corrupt lies, and it helps WB out by sparing us his insatiable nonsense.
Flying Junior Added Jul 29, 2018 - 5:21pm
Obviously the kids making the threats were not responsible enough to be around unsecured weapons and ammo, whatever age they were.
Rusty Smith Added Jul 29, 2018 - 5:35pm
Flying Junior I do take any shooting seriously, but these days the bar has been lowered to the point where authorities often investigate all the possibilities whenever hot words are exchanged, including looking to see if a potential hothead might have access to guns.  In these cases the answer was yes, they found out by searching their parents homes.  
 
I know people who have had all their guns and knives taken away because someone accused them of domestic violence, even though they had no previous record of any kind.  It doesn't take much and these days it happens more and more to innocent people who are just the victim of a clever person who uses the law to make trouble for them.  
 
We're not talking about a case where a child actually did something wrong with a gun, or for all we know even touched the gun.  It's possible the child didn't even know the guns existed, the parents are in big trouble because a child who was old enough to defeat a gun lock, wouldn't have had to if they really wanted to abuse it.
 
We also don't know if you or I would have considered whatever was said as a real threat.  Over 5 years ago I was accused of threatening a person at work who didn't like me.  The threat was taken very seriously and escalated to the point where I was afraid the police might confiscate all my guns.
 
I had brought a cute picture of a young child that is closely related to me into work to show some friends.  In the picture this child who is less than a year old has his hand on a 44 magnum revolver that is cleverly propped up in his lap, not pointed at the camera.  The child is too young to sit up, so the picture is obviously staged, by a family I know with a proud hunting tradition.
 
Someone in my company took it out of my office, made a black and white copy of the picture, wrote a threatening message on that copy, and posted it on someone's office door.  The person whose office it was posted on accused me of threatening their life.  Several people in the company thought the person whose office it was posted on made the copy, wrote the note and posted it on their office themselves, but there was no evidence either way.
 
Officials took the "threat" very seriously and I had to deal with a large number of officials who could not imagine why any responsible adult would consider letting a baby hold a gun.  When I compared it to a farmer taking a picture of their baby on a tractor they were not amused.
 
In your world which obviously doesn't include a rural hunting background the men in our story are horribly irresponsible but keep in mind there are lots of people who bring their kids up with guns, and even in California it's legal for a 12 year old to go hunting with a gun.  In other states children as young as 10 can hunt alone for big game.  Many children who grow up around guns are very responsible with them.
 
This story is about government overreach, and in this case it's very possible that dads who would be considered very responsible in other states will lose their jobs, and maybe their houses, because California is a nanny state and thinks they need serious jail time.
Flying Junior Added Jul 29, 2018 - 5:44pm
From your Article by NBC.
 
According to Feuer's office, Christy's 16-year-old son made threats around Feb. 5 to other students at Chatsworth Charter High School indicating he was going to carry out a shooting, and he made numerous references to his parents' guns on previous occasions...
 
According to Feuer's office, in February, Los Angeles School Police visited the defendant's home after his 17-year-old son allegedly made threats involving a gun to another student at Granada Hills Charter High School. His son also allegedly made social media posts with the firearm.
 
Both cases sound quite credible with threats of a shooting or at the least brandishing a gun.  Both boys had bragged about having access to guns, the second with images on social media.
 
I am not without sympathy for your acquaintances that have had their weapons confiscated.  Your own story sounds like a nightmare.
 
Dad sold his only rifle right before we came out to California in 1962.  The hunting isn't that great in San Diego County.  I guess you can hunt in parts of the National Forest and certain BLM areas.  It would seem like a shame to kill a California Quail or even a deer.  People do carry guns to protect themselves from cougars.
Rusty Smith Added Jul 29, 2018 - 5:51pm
Ryan Messano I've considered deleting commments from posters with maturity issues but sometimes think it says more if I leave them up so others in the WB community can see what losers they are, in their own words.
 
I know avatars are frequently misleading and often think some immature posters are really just children pretending to be adults.  That suspicion is frequently strengthened when they don't seem to be intelligent enough to make rational arguments.  Insults without logic are commonplace among bully's in most elementary schools, and there is nothing that would stop a kid from joining WB.
 
Look carefully, if they write like an immature child and don't seem to understand simple forum topics... "If it walks like a duck..."
Rusty Smith Added Jul 29, 2018 - 7:24pm
Flying Junior Kids do say a lot of stupid things, and perhaps a million say stupid things for every one that actually does something like a school shooting.   There are 300 million people in the US, half are kids, and not 50 school shootings a year.  In our attempt to proactively stop every shooter we've enacted laws that do a poor job of stopping the kind of kid that really wants to shoot up a school, but does criminalize millions of adults who have no criminal inclinations.
 
In my own area I've seen school suspensions and investigations over childish behavior that years ago would have been ignored as kids being kids.  If school officials came to me or anyone I know and said "your child has threatened to shoot someone", I'd not only have a few words with my child but if I thought the accusation was credible, would do all I could to make sure they didn't have the resources to get any gun, including any of mine.  That's all school officials used to do, and all they should do now.
 
I can see the schools checking out reports of violent threats, and even talking to the kids parents, but sending the police out to raid their home and lock the parents up in jail if they find an unsecured firearm, is a trimendous overkill and in my opinion implementing punishments that are horrendously out of proportion with the crimes.  Thousands of children a year get intoxicated from liquor their parents left out and do things that result in deaths,  We don't throw the parents in jail, but what they have done is just as serious as not securing a gun when they have a 17 year old at home.
Rusty Smith Added Jul 29, 2018 - 7:33pm
Flying Junior I hike in Mountain Lion country a lot and officials keep telling me I shouldn't hike alone, especially in the predawn hours and early evening hours, (when it's cool around here), but I'm not "allowed" to carry a pistol with me for self defense.  Of course not allowed doesn't mean much, there is no one checking.  I see tracks on occasion, but not the lions.  I know it's unlikely but I do worry about them, because I do hike a lot in the early am and evening, and often alone.  
 
I've had lions come within a block of my house, they have been at my kids school more than once and I worry about them killing my fenced in livestock.  If one made it over my fence I would not hesitate to kill it if I saw it.  Officials also tell me not to let children or pets play in my yard alone or unsupervised, it's all about "learning to live with nature" according to them.
 
I liked it better before they were protected and it was OK to shoot the bold ones.  Back then I rarely saw one, and when I did they always left the second they realized I could see them.  I felt a lot safer back then, only the shy ones were still alive.  
Gerrilea Added Jul 29, 2018 - 8:09pm
Rusty-- You present an issue dear to my heart, the constitution and the laws written within that limited framework.
 
"Gun laws", are at their inception, intended to abrogate the 2nd Amendment. The rationalizations that "it's for the children" is Orwellian Doublespeak
 
My personal position on when a child gets a hold of a firearm and kills themselves or others, the parents MUST be prosecuted.  The difference here is that the "secure gun laws" wish to use the law as a means of oppression and NOT justice to deny an unalienable right to as many as possible.
 
When laws dictate prosecution & sentencing parameters, we move from the "common law" system instituted to a Napoleonic Code system where the government is the law giver unto itself. It's the antithesis of our Constitutional Republic.
 
I see it this way, is a parent going to suffer the rest of their life if their child kills themselves or others with their firearm? Most certainly, we must assume this.  There is a huge "but", let the facts and circumstances dictate what our created government does.
 
Was the firearm in a locked drawer or closet? Was it left on the table with drugs? Or left in Mommy's purse?
 
Are gun owners whom "secure" their weapons absolved of any responsibility?  Criminal liability would have to be "out of the question" but civilly, that would be up to the injured victims/survivors.
 
Bill Camps-- Isn't that the problem today?  We do not trust our government or it's "judgment" as being valid.  How many career LEO got hungry for more power and wealth and pursued political office by "taking a bite out of crime"?  By going after "the low hanging fruit", ie the poor and disenfranchised?
 
I see most, if not all, "gun control laws" as feel-good propaganda not designed to save anyone but bolster the interests of a select few sycophants.
 
Mustafa Kemal Added Jul 29, 2018 - 9:22pm
Rusty, that is clear to me, No.
Is prosecuting the parent going to help the child? Is the state going to fix all the other aspects of parenting that it finds substandard?
 
 
Except in extreme circumstances we should accept the fact that children have to live with their parents, and that is the way it should be.
James E. Unekis Added Jul 29, 2018 - 11:34pm
As morality breaks down we try to substitute laws.  Now, in 3 working age adults has a criminal record - the highest rate in the world  Now with electronic record every sentence is a life sentence as each offender is hobbled from meaningful employment for the rest of their lives.
 
America the great has become America the oppressed.
Flying Junior Added Jul 30, 2018 - 2:34am
Doesn't that number of 70 million Americans having a criminal record include misdemeanors?  I'm sure the number of people arrested for felonies is much smaller.
 
I have a misdemeanor on my record.  It's from 1978.  The job I am working today requires a background check.
 
I got laid off from another job in 2006 and had a chance to be rehired in 2007.  I was asked to list every criminal offense for which I had ever been convicted.  I'll be a monkey's uncle if I didn't remember just about every arrest and every ticket.  One infraction was barely eleven years old.  Mrs. Junior thought I was crazy to admit everything that I had done.  I was hired back and worked there seven more years.
Spartacus Added Jul 30, 2018 - 8:58am
I don't think the hacksaw argument was the best.  
 
If the state requires parents to lock up guns, then why not knives and ice-picks, screwdrivers, scissors . . . hell, anything with which kids could potentially harm themselves or others?
 
This is how stupid the left has become.  Their reasoning.  It's like the right somehow is guilty of neglect by allowing the parents to be parents . . .  errors and all.  The right falls for this shit all the time.
Bill Kamps Added Jul 30, 2018 - 9:25am
Rusty, there are a lot of laws run amuck, like the three strikes and out, kind of thing, or maximum sentences for drug offenders when they are not necessarily violent. 
 
As I said it doesnt bother me if there is no such law.
 
I  do have an urge to slap adults upside the head for leaving guns around who have young children, but that  doesnt mean a law would make it better. 
 
It is disappointing when something like Sandy Hook happens when a teenager gets the Mom's unlocked gun.  But the NRA tells us the kid would have gotten the gun elsewhere to do this deed, and perhaps he would have. 
James E. Unekis Added Jul 30, 2018 - 11:15am
FJ,
Good for you.  I think it get wiped clean at either 18 or 21.  I'm pretty sure it would have to include misdemeanors.  Whether that precludes employment is up to the hiring company but can be used to deny a job.  Tickets, except for driving jobs, are usually overlooked I would believe.
James E. Unekis Added Jul 30, 2018 - 11:16am
William,
 
I think that every years a few idiots leave their loaded guns out and....bang...... a new law.
James E. Unekis Added Jul 30, 2018 - 11:19am
Bill, I think if someone really wants a gun they can get it pretty easily.
 
The ones lying around may start something that was never going to get started.  Not that the law keps idiots from doing it over and over.  They need a new non idiot law.  LOL
Bill Kamps Added Jul 30, 2018 - 11:39am
Agreed, making stupidity illegal, does not stop it.
Rusty Smith Added Jul 30, 2018 - 7:19pm
Gerrilea Yes, I agree many of the existing gun laws were created by anti gun folks who are more concerned with taking guns away from the public than with trying to make things safer.  The transportation laws where I live are impractical and unsafe as a result and make a good example.  I have attached a picture to the bottom of the forum topic as an example.
 
As you can see in the picture the person has a large hunting rifle laying in plain sight in the back of his open bed pickup truck.  He's left it where anyone passing by can see it and could easily steal it from him without even breaking a window.  If he pays for gas his $300 to $800 gun might not be there when he gets back to the truck.
 
However like most hunters he's driving a truck that has no trunk and despite how stupid it looks, that is the only way he can take his hunting rifle anywhere without risk of being arrested for breaking the firearm transportation laws.  His gun is in a locked case, and the ammunition in other containers.  If he left it in his cab he'd be guilty of having a firearm and ammunition within reach while he was driving down the street.  That is what most people do, and most law enforcement officers ignore the technicality, but some officers are jerks and he could lose his guns if he's caught breaking the law.
 
Do notice this is not just anyone, the person in question is a law enforcement officer who is on duty.  The locking case he is using to secure his gun legally is made of thin plastic, and anyone with a medium sized screwdriver could pry the lock off it in a few seconds.  It meets the letter of the law but not the intent, if we presume the intent was to stop criminals or 15 year olds from getting access to his gun.  His bullets are in cloth bags, but that's ok.  He has fulfilled the letter of the law, but in dong so has made the public much less safe because his guns and ammunition are so easy to see and steel.
 
By the way if he had given it some thought and bolted a locking box under his truck bed so he could secure his guns in a place where they would be hard to spot or steal, that would be extremely illegal.  His truck could be seized even if it was unlocked there was no gun in his truck, if the compartment was spotted by a law enforcement officer.  The brilliant people who make up transportation laws want everyone to be able to see you are carrying guns, and demand they be easy for officers, (and thieves), to spot while your paying for gas, or using a truck stop bathroom.
 
At best many anti gun laws are well intended mistakes made by people who didn't understand the unintended consequences.  I think many are intentionally unworkable by the design of anti gun folks whose real goal is not safety, but rather disarming the public.
Rusty Smith Added Jul 30, 2018 - 7:28pm
Mustafa Kemal I think all decent parents try to lock up everything that they think is age inappropriate including knives, drugs, choking hazards, and even guns until they think their kids are old enough to be responsible around them.  The list of things that kids can abuse even includes alcohol and car keys and I think it gets crazy when we try to use laws to make parents more responsible for being careless or even stupid.
 
I think anyone who leaves a gun within reach of a young child needs their head examined, but also know some kids as young as 10 go hunting all the time in other places.  Clearly the idea of when your child is ready is not a decision the government should be making for parents.  There is no age when kids stop abusing deadly things like guns, so if the anti gun folks have it their way we'd need to keep them away from 99 year olds too, after all they also shoot other people and themselves.
Rusty Smith Added Jul 30, 2018 - 7:30pm
James E. Unekis incarcerated parents don't just stop working, they become an expensive burden on society.  In most cases I think the public shame and humiliation they experince teaches them more than the jail time they serve, and I would rather see them continue working.
Gerrilea Added Jul 31, 2018 - 1:40am
Rusty S--- You've given a real life example of how absurd "the law" has become.  I'll give you another.  My front door and windows came with locks yet if I owned a firearm it must be "secured" in a gun safe with the ammo in another place within my home.
 
Say what?  My locked front door & windows aren't enough? They "protect" me but cannot protect my belongings?  Ditto for my car!
 
Those kinds of laws are exactly what Eric Holder said needed to be done 30+ yrs ago.  The link to his admittance of his goal is in my previous posting.  He wants to brainwash Americans to "think" of firearms separate from any other tool or personal item we may own or acquire. 
 
Oh and I agree with your reply to James E U, parents being jailed do none of us any good.
 
Flying Junior Added Jul 31, 2018 - 1:52am
William,
 
I think that every years a few idiots leave their loaded guns out and....bang...... a new law.
 
More like bang-bang you're dead!
Dr. Rupert Green Added Jul 31, 2018 - 2:11am
"Lets face it most kids can buy a hacksaw at the 99 cent store and cut the lock off a gun by the time they are 14.  Throwing a dad in prison because they have an unlocked gun at home is a standard that only makes sense if we are trying to criminalize more gun owners, even those who have done nothing wrong.  Kids say stupid things all the time, that doesn't make their gun owning parents criminals."
 
I can remember coming from home from work and having my target permitted "nine" in the shopping bag, only to turn around and see my four-year-old son with it.
 
Raiding homes to look for unsecured guns would hardly be an action in my city'hood. But you hunting and frontier folks appear to have your guns hanging on racks and so forth (based on movies).  As per the current law.  "Hello I am a criminal, its midnight and I am in your house to rob and kill."
Honey, go in the bathroom with the kids, let me go to the study to fetch the gun box, by the way, where do you keep the key?
 
Well.. responsible gun owners need a plan and good memory.
Rusty Smith Added Jul 31, 2018 - 12:06pm
Dr. Rupert Green I have kids and know what it's like to have to move them and all the other things that could get them in trouble including knives and medicine, until they got old enough to behave responsibly.  Before kids I had guns hidden all over the house and it was years before I felt safe doing that again. 
 
I have several digital safes and in order to help maintain my fast access I kept other things like car keys in them too.  That way I'm extremely well  practiced opening them, and can in about 3 seconds.  Still not as good as having a 911 in my headboard, but it worked.
 
By the time my kids were 12 they had practice firing guns they could handle, and were responsible around them.  After that I felt comfortable having them hidden around the house again.
EXPAT Added Jul 31, 2018 - 7:57pm
Rusty. Good article. It makes the point, that you can't legislate common sense! Kids are incredibly cleaver at getting into whatever fascinates them.
 
Punishing parents for the cleverness of their children, is folly. Punishment is always after the fact, like hindsight, the shoulda, woulda, coulda is usually ideological in nature, and as you point out a way of forcing their agenda on others.
Rusty Smith Added Jul 31, 2018 - 8:20pm
EXPAT the most common gun locks, including the cable locks given out by many cities for free, are super easy to cut.  Does anyone really thinks criminally inclined kids who steal locked bicycles all the time can really be scared off by a cheap lock, especially on a gun that they can take anywhere they want and spend all the time they need cutting off?
 
These days kids all watch YouTube and there are more video's showing them how to remove gun locks with simple tools than I can count.  If a kid wants to shoot up his school your gun lock won't stop them.  Incidentally most of the kids who shot up schools had their own guns, most obtained legally.
 
Approved lockable gun cases are also a joke, like the in the back of the pick up truck at the bottom of the forum article.  Its made of plastic that is easy to cut.  They may meet the letter of the law but they hardly keep us safe.
EXPAT Added Jul 31, 2018 - 10:57pm
Rusty.
I do not understand your response? Was it meant for another commenter?
We are essentially saying the same thing.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Aug 1, 2018 - 1:51am
@Rusty. In regarding the reference to my "nine [ Model 59 S@W]," you wrote: Still not as good as having a 911 in my headboard, but it worked."
 
Whats the implications when some good action puts a man to rem sleep, does the wife have access to 911. What is the situation when there is maritial problem, is a headboard 911 recommended?
 
 
Rusty Smith Added Aug 1, 2018 - 10:14am
Dr. Rupert Green "still not as good" was in compared to having guns in a safe that's easy to open, the headboard is closer, easier, and faster when I'm in bed.
 
I guess I'm lucky, I've never threatened or been threatened by a girlfriend or my wife.  I don't claim I've experienced uninterrupted marital bliss, but violence of any kind or even the threat of it, has never played a part.  
 
EXPAT I agree, we're on the same side of this one.
Ken Added Aug 1, 2018 - 9:26pm
I have a libertarian view here.  We live in a free country and there are dangers to living in a free country.  The more dangers you are protected from (regulations, laws requiring you to act in certain ways) the less free you are.
 
I believe in being punished based on the cause that created the effect if the effect was detrimental. 
 
For example -
1a) You may drive drunk.  You put a lot of people at risk, but you cause no damage and get home safely - that shouldn't be criminal. 
 
1b) You drive drunk.  You damage property or injure or kill a person.  NOW you have committed a criminal act.  You should be punished harshly because your decision to do that action caused an event to occur that likely could have been prevented.  If you were sober and had the same effect, your judgement should be far less harsh unless you were doing something that increased the risk such as texting.
 
2a)  You have a gun in the house.  It is your right.  It is your property.  You have the right to these things in our free country. Again, if no harm, no foul
 
2b) You have a gun in the house and a child picks it up and fires it and damages or injures.  Now you are liable of a criminal event and should be punished accordingly.
 
Risky behavior in and of itself should not be criminal.  It should only be criminal if it results in damage or injury to another.
 
 
For the benefit of Dave and Jeff, here I shall cite another radical right wing source in Ben Franklin -

“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

 
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Aug 1, 2018 - 10:45pm
Apparently they outlawed straws in California so it wouldn't suck so much there. 
Rusty Smith Added Aug 2, 2018 - 11:41am
Ken Texas law may have changed but I like their approach.  
 
Drunk driving is not allowed because intoxicated drivers are just too dangerous, but drinking and driving is allowed, providing the driver doesn't pass the legal alcohol limit in their blood.  Their focus is on public safety, not the presence of a potentially dangerous thing.
 
If we treat guns the same, it would be ok to carry them, but criminal use would be illegal.  Too bad that's not good enough for the anti gun crowd, but then again they just want to take guns away from law abiding citizens.
Eric Reports Added Aug 2, 2018 - 1:22pm
At one time, guns were a fact of life.  The left have made them out to be the reason why there is murder in the world.  There was murder long before the gun.
Rusty Smith Added Aug 2, 2018 - 9:20pm
Eric Reports there is nothing new about trying to reduce crime with gun laws but as we see in the UK, even if we get rid of them and criminals have to resort to other weapons, crime will continue at about the same rate.
 
In the UK they got rid of most of their guns and now their crime rates have risen as a result to the point where homicides are more common in the UK than in New York where guns are still legal.
 
Now their politicians are trying to get rid of pointed knives, becasue they still think crime is caused by the weapons, not bad people who will victimize the public with whatever they can get their hands on.
 
All the UK politicians have succeeded in doing is making their law abiding citizens defenseless, even against a punk with an ice pick.
Ward Tipton Added Aug 2, 2018 - 10:51pm
Excuse me sir. Would you please be so kind as to refrain from continuing your attempts at an unlawful entry into my personal domicile in order to conduct acts of physical harm on myself and my family? You see, I need to get down to the basement, unlock the gun safe, and then head over to the ammunition cabinet, unlock that to retrieve a sufficient amount of ammunition to fend off your unwarranted affront to me and my family ... and then sir, please feel free to continue your efforts unabated ... save my somewhat belated efforts to fend off your attempts at causing harm to me and mine. 
 
Gun education for the kids. Simple. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Aug 2, 2018 - 10:52pm
so a three to five year old child is going to understand gun education?  Good luck.
Ward Tipton Added Aug 2, 2018 - 11:24pm
My five year old daughter understands perfectly well what frightens her for now. (When she is old enough, I will get her a .22 and teach her about the finer aspects of gun safety ... at such a time as she has an understanding. At night, it is in my possession. During the daytime, I have it holstered on my side. She knows not to play with is, even while sitting in my lap. An infant would not be given the opportunity to be playing with it as they sleep in the crib and would be held to my chest, not at my side.
 
Yes, education works. 
Ward Tipton Added Aug 2, 2018 - 11:26pm
Funny, but when we take the mystery out of things, kids are not so quick to want to explore what they already know and understand. When things are a mystery or when they are told not to, it is human nature ... and especially the nature of children, to discover why. (Thus my comment on another article that people are by and large, not inherently good by nature)
Rusty Smith Added Aug 2, 2018 - 11:38pm
Thomas Sutrina where shooting sports and hunting is popular children grow up around them and are taught the rules at a very young age.  
 
I and my siblings were taught the rules with toy guns starting when we were about 3 or 4.  My first was a to revolver that had play bullets that actually shot a plastic bullet, I remember it and the rules well.
 
I was not allowed to point it at anyone even when the bullets were not in it.  It was a revolver and I couldn't keep a bullet in the chamber under the hammer.  Later I was given a Daisy BB rifle, and rules for handling it that were similar.  By the time I was 5 I got to shoot real guns and at 12 had my own semi auto 22 and the bullets for it under my own bed.   I wasn't allowed to let any of my friends touch it with the exception of a few family friends whose parents also taught their kids to shoot, and would go shooting with me and my family.
 
I was also shown were my parents hid various guns and taught how to use them just in case someone broke into our house.  I was taught to cry and run away if I could while the intruder focused their attention on my parents, get a gun, and not let the intruder see it until I had the opportunity to shoot them, if possible from behind, until the gun was empty.  
 
I know people who don't have guns don't understand gun culture, but hope they won't just assume young kids can't handle them responsibly.  Any kid that can dress a deer can probably responsibly handle a gun.
Utpal Patel Added Aug 4, 2018 - 1:49am
If a parent’s gun cabinet is opened because a kid hack-sawed off the lock, I doubt the parent would be prosecuted.  However, for parents that make guns accessible to children, they do deserve to be held responsible for whatever their child does with the gun.  I think it’s totally irresponsible for a 12-year old to be given a semi-automatic rifle and should you have done something terrible with it, your parents should be prosecuted.  I would say the same thing about a parent that allows a child to drive without a license.  
Ward Tipton Added Aug 4, 2018 - 11:35am
Do you lock up your kitchen knives? Especially those big butcher knives and those scary black knives? 
 
Does your pool have a cover of sufficient tautness and strength to keep the fat kid next door from drowning or suffocating when they fall in? 
 
Is your motorcycle locked safely?
 
Do you put your car keys in a safe at night so your kids cannot steal the car? 
Ward Tipton Added Aug 4, 2018 - 11:36am
Let's not forget the workshop! Lots of dangerous weapons in a workshop! Better not let them kids in the garage! 
Rusty Smith Added Aug 8, 2018 - 6:07pm
Utpal Patel you obviously didn't grow up using guns and hunting.  Depending on where you live children as young as 10 are allowed to hunt big game by themselves, it's common and legal.
 
Ward is right if you leave your knives and car keys out you are taking the same kind of risk, lots of kids do abuse knives, matches and lighters, and kitchen knives.  The Mayor of London recently implored parents to lock up their kitchen knives, after homicide statistics showed that the most common murder weapon was MOM's Kitchen Knives.
 
If a kid uses Mom's unsecured kitchen knife to kill some would you hope the Mom would be prosecuted for negligence or third degree murder?