Want to Take a Dip in the Lake on Mars?

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Humanity needs a frontier in order to provide meaning to our existence. It is in the pursuit of the frontier that we have an opportunity to exhibit our best character traits, and provide a relief valve for our churlish nature. Up until the 20th century, we had frontiers on most continents. Exploration in the Amazon rain forest, conquering the outback in Australia, "civilizing" the American west by taking it from its original inhabitants, all of these helped to fuel the imaginations of the time. Once the frontiers closed though, it has not been possible to dream of adventures in exploration that would open new vistas to humanity.

 

Until recently, that is. Beginning with government efforts in the US and the Soviet Union enabling space exploration, we now are in a world where many nations are launching their own satellites, and conducting virtual space exploration to other bodies in the solar system. Private industry is playing a larger role, as the value in providing access to near-earth orbit becomes profitable. Even now, we have begun to dream of new adventures in revisiting the moon, and placing human footprints on other celestial spheres.

 

That is why the recent discovery of a lake of liquid water sealed under the south polar ice cap of Mars is so important. The story of the discovery may be found in the August 3 issue of Science Magazine. The Italian research team describes the results from the European Space Agency (ESA) Mars Express probe, where radar pulses were sent down into the Martian surface, and the return pulses were analyzed. The pulses show both the surface features, and the features below the south polar ice cap. They show a clear signal of a very strong return of the radar beam from below the ice cap in certain places. By comparison to radar images taken from subsurface lakes in Greenland and Antarctica, they can state with confidence that the bright reflections represent a free water surface found below the ice. That water is undoubtedly extremely salty, since even under a kilometer and a half of ice, the freezing point of water needs substantial salt content in order to keep the water as liquid at the temperature of Mars. Still, the discovery of water, on a planet that long ago lost its atmosphere due to the decay of its magnetic field, gives hope that in the future humanity may actually be able to survive the hostile landscape of another planet.

Northern Martian polar ice cap

 

The discovery shows how human probes continue to make significant discoveries at Mars. Right now there are eight probes (from the US, the ESA, and India) either circling Mars, or rolling over the surface of the planet. It is no longer extraordinary to see 360° panorama views of the surface of Mars, showing the approach of a lander to the distant mountain that will be explored next. In my own lifetime, I've seen the entire cycle of space exploration. One of my earliest memories was hearing over the radio the announcement of Sputnik's successful launch as my family drove back from vacation. I was an inveterate space junkie during the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programs. I remember the early moon probes, and watching the pictures return from a moon growing ominously closer, until the picture went dark upon impact. Now, the discoveries from Saturn, and Jupiter, and Pluto, and even from asteroids and comets keep coming as we expand our exploration horizons.

 

But for humanity to really create a new frontier, it will be necessary for humans to venture back beyond our own planet, and onto suitable surfaces elsewhere in the solar system. There are very few locations where we could exist, even for a short while. One would not want to land on the Jovian volcanic moon of Io, which continually sends plumes of material up from its surface in response to the intense tidal energy released from rotation around Jupiter. Europa would be a candidate, but the crevasses in the icy surface covering it's moon-girdling ocean would be risky for someone to navigate. The outer gas planets themselves offer no solid surface at all - just an atmosphere that keeps growing thicker and thicker until it turns into a sticky liquid. Really, we have only the moon and Mars as candidates for humanity to set up any sort of outpost.

 

So I am firmly in favor of continuing human exploration of space, even though the additional scientific payback from human observation may not be justified financially. No, it is because we as a species wish to continue to explore, to see what lies beyond the next ridge, to satisfy the itch that comes from too much stability and comfort, that is why we must keep extending humanity's reach. Otherwise we will become jaded, and will gain a mindset that says we can only win if others lose. Western civilization has shown for the better part of a millennium that the payoff for exploration activities always exceeds the input costs, even when the act of exploration creates martyrs along the way. It certainly has a better record of payoff than various economic theories implemented over the past 38 years can show.

 

There's yet another reason for humanity to return to space. The exploration of space has become internationalized over the years, and those who staff the International Space Station have come from an increasing number of countries around the world. All who see the Earth from space come away with a firm belief that we are fortunate to live on such a hospitable planet, and that you cannot see borders from space*. We on Earth need to regain the perspective that we had back in December 1968, when the first Apollo flight to circle the moon broadcast that magical image of the moon, accompanied from the words of Genesis https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToHhQUhdyBY . For those of us who remember that moment, we will never forget it. If you truly wish to make America great again, then we should reach once more for the stars.

 

* You can actually see the borders of North Korea at night, when the line of demarcation shows the difference between North Korea's neighbors and their surplus of electric lights, compared to the darkness inhabiting the hermit kingdom. 

 

Posted first on my blog at https://evenabrokenclock.blog

Comments

Katharine Otto Added Aug 11, 2018 - 11:50am
Clock,
Interesting perspective, although I'm more in favor of deepening rather than broadening experience.  You say we have explored all frontiers, but I say the discoveries have been superficial and left a significant amount of destruction and waste in their paths.
 
I suspect a great motivator for space colonization is that we've created a slime pit on earth.  If we take our same disrespectful attitudes into space, what's to stop us from making and abandoning the same mistakes?
 
Yes, the discovery of salt water on Mars is intriguing.  Next, maybe they'll discover it's full of plastic.
Jeff Michka Added Aug 11, 2018 - 12:07pm
Yeah, that's it, let's continue to screw up Earth, 'cause we've always got Mars when Earth is no longer livable.  Let's waste some time and start a discussion on climate change.  The right can all scream and shreak "science, science....OUR science is better than your science.  My climate facts are more factual than you socialist climate facts, and we'll get somewhere, huh?   Idiots.
FacePalm Added Aug 12, 2018 - 4:42am
Clock-
Once upon a time, i was required to take an ASAP course; during it, i mentioned to the instructor that it was "control freaks like you that made freedom lovers like me move West in the first place."
 
THAT - the desire to be free from self-appointed government masters - is most certainly a factor in seeking frontiers; the degree of oppression and tyranny one has experienced is often a - if not THE - causal factor in seeking them out.
 
However, anyone desiring freedom from human government need only go a hundred miles or more offshore, and presto!  No more government but your own...AND, given the financial ability, fully 2/3'rds of the earth's total cubic volume to explore and habitate, too.
 
BTW, the instructor didn't like my saying that AT ALL, and threatened to kick me out of class and pay for ASAP again if i kept it up.  Talk about proof of concept!
 
But if you've ever heard of Dr. Steven Greer - one of the movers behind the Sirius Disclosure Project - he says that his sources have told him that there have been hundreds of UFO takedowns over the years, and that the US has had FTL interstellar travel for well over 30 years as a direct result of back-engineering, now....that a colony on Mars has been extant for quite some time, etc.
Logical Man Added Aug 12, 2018 - 2:32pm
At $20,000 per kilo, just to low earth orbit, the challenges of long-term weightlessness and radiation effects on humans, I think it will be a long time before even a single human goes there and colonization is likely way off in the distant future, assuming humans last long enough.
As for extra-terrestrials doing the job for us, it's about as likely as an angel flying us there.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, not just a hypothesis.
James Travil Added Aug 12, 2018 - 4:58pm
Unless some government agency monitors the information and what in it that gets sent back to earth, I think when actual humans begin to explore Mars it is going to be a lot more than what we bargained for. I follow a number of YouTube channels that publish pictures of things discovered on Mars and it is quite revealing versus the official narrative. 
Jeff Michka Added Aug 12, 2018 - 5:12pm
So ol Faced wants to out batshit crazy PlumbDoug's conspiracy theories with UFOs.  LOL.  Yeah, you rightists need to be taken seriously and in a civil manner, but you are crazy.  Hey, aren't you folks all stoked and worried about Q?
FacePalm Added Aug 12, 2018 - 5:44pm
Logical Man-
At $20,000 per kilo, just to low earth orbit, the challenges of long-term weightlessness and radiation effects on humans, I think it will be a long time before even a single human goes there and colonization is likely way off in the distant future, assuming humans last long enough.
 
Unless, of course, people like Dr. Steven Greer and the nearly-100 interviewees he has on the Sirius Disclosure are telling the truth, and the 20kbux/kilo figure applies ONLY to the conventional rocketry used to hide the fact that light-speed+ vehicles have indeed been back-engineered and used for a long time for solar system and more...

As for extra-terrestrials doing the job for us, it's about as likely as an angel flying us there.
 
An interesting claim - i didn't make one like that.  i didn't see anyone ELSE post that, either.  Want to quote whomever said this?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, not just a hypothesis.
 
And you've watched the Sirius Disclosure at the link provided just above your post?
 
 
FacePalm Added Aug 12, 2018 - 5:56pm
Jeff-
So ol Faced wants to out batshit crazy PlumbDoug's conspiracy theories with UFOs.  LOL. 
 
i don't know a damn thing about Plumb Doug.
 
Yeah, you rightists need to be taken seriously and in a civil manner, but you are crazy. 
 
Ok, now here, are you using you in a generic or specific sense?  And "crazy" is relative; it is hardly "sane" to be "well-adjusted" to an insane world.  Also, crazy being a synonym for "insane" could certainly be interpreted as a direct insult, a way to demean, belittle, and/or demonize your opponent.  That's not what YOU'RE doing, here, though, is it?
 
Hey, aren't you folks all stoked and worried about Q?
 
Not me.  And  i have no idea who you're referring to here as "you folks."  i don't follow "Q," an anonymous source that asks leading questions and pretends know more than your average bear, according to some "analysts" i've seen trying to guess wtf he is/they are talking riddles about.
IMO, it's both dangerous and stupid - maybe dangerously stupid - to deliberately seek to antagonize and belittle opponents, especially by some keyboard coward like you appear to be portraying - unless, of course, you're NOT acting...
 
Logical Man Added Aug 12, 2018 - 6:18pm
Facealm,
No, I didn't watch the video but I did do a little research regarding Dr. Greer.
I try to allow for the fact that 'science' doesn't cover everything. I think the word translates as 'knowledge' from the Latin - based on testable explanations. If something is merely a conjecture it can't; be called science.
Based on modern science, anything with rest mass requires infinite energy to reach light speed, so that's pretty much out of the picture.
Sure, there will be new things discovered in the future, but at this point in the history of physics, most of those will be refinements, similar to the advance from Newtonian physics to Relativity.
I've seen a shit load of UFOs. I look up in the sky and there's something flying about but I don't know what it is - therefore it is, for me, a UFO. Doesn't mean there are little green men operating it, just that I don't know what it is (it is high in the sky, so likely flying)
I don't doubt that there are many extra-terrestrial civilizations, in fact I'd bet on it being the case, dotted about the universe) I just doubt, based just on logistics and the ability to identify a planet worth visiting, that any of them would have even noticed we are here, or taken the time to swing by our small blue ball even if they had.
There are more stars in the observable universe than there are grains of sand on every beach on earth. It seems like there are planets around almost all of them. I think it's unlikely that humans are the only technological civilization but interstellar travel is a huge barrier. Intergalactic even more so.
 
 
 
FacePalm Added Aug 12, 2018 - 6:39pm
"Any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic."
~Arthur C. Clark, sci-fi writer.
If you allow for the possibility that there are more elements than are known on our periodic table - and that it has been observable fact that UFO's travel MUCH faster than any conventional tech that is commonly known - AND the possibility that indeed, space CAN be warped just as Star Trek accounts claim, then Newtonian physics AND Einsteinian can be tossed; iirc, science relies not only on experimentation and observable results, but REPEATABLE ones...and that most quantum leaps in understanding come from those who observe anomalies in nature and follow where they lead, like Schaumberger, iirc, who observed how salmon swim upstream and developed his 'implosion' theories.  Despite "conventional wisdom" or "facts."  Once upon a time, there was a British scientific community which - around 1890 or so - solemnly pronounced, with all the weight of their combined knowledge, wisdom, and experience, that "Heavier-than-air craft would never fly."
 
If you decide to watch the Sirius Disclosure, and ARE interested in what they have to say as well as what they hint at, i'd recommend writing down at least a FEW names, to websearch and see what else, if anything, they reveal.  Some have reported on UFO's which seem to change shape constantly, like they're going into and out of other dimensions.  If, for example, one might shift a physical object into another dimension where "normal" physics does not apply, faster-than-light travel - even multiples of it - could be extremely likely.  You have perhaps heard that "thinking is the fastest way to travel"?  Some scientists have hinted that some of the tech discovered in the downed spacecraft showed evidence of being controlled via the minds of the pilots.
 
i'm being reminded of the famous speech by Hamlet, when he says "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 12, 2018 - 8:49pm
Katharine - yeah, the issue of us fouling our own nest keeps coming up. I don't think that the dream of exploring other planets will ameliorate the effects of pollution and increasing entropy on earth, but hopefully will bring back a sense of hope and inspire some who need to have that hope in their hearts.
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 12, 2018 - 8:51pm
Jeff - it is hopeless to convince those who deny science of a scientific finding. Their whole self justification is based upon them not believing something that is so obviously staring them in the face. Kind of like supporters of a certain current President of the US>
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 12, 2018 - 8:52pm
Facepalm (love the name) - what exactly is an ASAP course? Does it pertain to the standard acronym, or does it involve SAP? I lived in the SAP world for 15 years and am glad to have escaped.
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 12, 2018 - 8:56pm
Facepalm / Logical Man - I have not followed any of the discussions of aliens on earth over the years. The only thing I will comment on is that my parents who lived in swampy / marshy landscape in southern Michigan in the early 1950's were convinced that they saw one of those swamp gas UFO's back then.
 
I myself think that if a species has gained the ability to do FTL flight, they would be sure to make themselves known in ways that our militaries could not prevent. But I do stay open minded.
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 12, 2018 - 8:59pm
To all who are interested in space - the knowledge about planets surrounding other stars is exploding almost by the day. I have no doubt that we will find multiple worlds that are candidates for having stable life forms within a few years, and when we do, and point our radio telescopes at them, we will pick up our first unambiguous signal indicating we are not alone in the universe. It is a matter of faith.
James Travil Added Aug 12, 2018 - 9:03pm
I don't know about FTL drives existing in human civilization today, but NASA takes research into it at their Eagleworks Labs very seriously. That includes work on Warp Drive engines. 
FacePalm Added Aug 12, 2018 - 9:19pm
Even A Broken Clock-
ASAP is an acronym for A.lcohol S.afety A.ction P.rogram; it's what drunk drivers eventually have to go through in order to get their "license to drive" back.
 
As an aside, you know what the difference is between an alcoholic and a drunk?  A drunk don't have to go to them damn meetings...
 
make themselves known in ways that our militaries could not prevent
 
Ever take a look at the great multitude of crop circles?  Most of them are far too intricate and detailed to have been done by any man or even large group of men...and some have messages encoded, as well.  Some are just incredibly beautiful.
 
James-
You may find that Lockheeds "Skunkworks" will have a number of fascinating articles concerning what they do there...mostly speculation and your occasional eyewitness testimony, rarely any proof.
FacePalm Added Aug 12, 2018 - 9:26pm
Even A Broken Clock-
I didn't understand your reference to 'SAP' 'til just now, i think; are you referring to "S.pecial A.ccess P.rojects?"  If so, have you ever heard of the USAP's, the "Unacknowledged" ones?
 
i first heard about USAP's from the aforementioned Dr. Steven Greer.  If some of the SAP's you reference may relate to the subject at hand, you also may wish to watch the linked Sirius Disclosure, then maybe even seek to contact either Greer or some of the folks interviewed in that film.
Logical Man Added Aug 12, 2018 - 9:32pm
A few more thoughts on this one....
 
Just because a number of people believe something, that doesn't mean it's real. Billions believe in an invisible sky guy, based on zero evidence.
 
There's no evidence for gods and just as much for alien visitors.
 
Based on the odds, there has to be a fairly large number of sentient species in the universe. Looking at what's going on in the only one we actually know exists I doubt we'll be seeing tourists in the foreseeable future.
 
 
James Travil Added Aug 12, 2018 - 9:38pm
I for one believe that intelligent alien life visited the earth at some time in the past. Things like the Naca Lines in South America are difficult to explain unless someone back then had the power of flight. And regarding Mars I've seen all kinds of strange things about it's surface, everything from towers and other artificial looking structures to spoon, pieces of wood, and machinery. Perhaps whatever use to live there died off in a large scale war millions of years ago. 
Logical Man Added Aug 12, 2018 - 9:54pm
James, a question.
If humans died out next week, how much evidence for our existence would be left in 2 billion years that would be visible from orbit?
My bet would be not a lot.
What are the chances, given the energy costs, that an extra-terrestrial species would just happen to wander by? As close to zero as makes no difference.
We are all traveling in the only spaceship we know of. Might be a good idea to find a way to cooperate.
ET ain't going to be a saviour, any more so than all the gods humans have invented.
James Travil Added Aug 12, 2018 - 10:05pm
"ET ain't going to be a saviour, any more so than all the gods humans have invented."
Show us all where the hell I've ever said anything about relying on external "saviors", I'll wait....
While we are waiting I highly recommend to OTHERS who's minds aren't completely closed the YouTube channel Secureteam. Look at the proof and decide for yourself. Or you could let knee-jerk conclusion jerks who misquote people decide for you. 
Logical Man Added Aug 12, 2018 - 10:12pm
James, I don't think I implied anything regarding your comment, I just posed a question and ran with the thought.
 
FacePalm Added Aug 12, 2018 - 10:13pm
Logical Man-
Have you ever heard of the Zero Point Field, aka the "Dirac Sea?"
It was first scientifically proven to exist by a fella whose name just escaped me - ah!  Remembered.  Casimir, as in the Casimir effect.  In essence, it is the lowest possible energy state; the way a JPL scientist described it was "imagine a grandfather clock with a pendulum; shrink it down to sub-atomic size, and imagine the pendulum of it and uncounted others moving very slowly."  It's almost a quiescent state.  So although that state is very small and still, it still represents an ENORMOUS amount of energy - energy which - if it could be tapped - would literally be available everywhere, since it's omnipresent.  If you'd like to read the article for yourself, his name is Bernhard Haisch, and the article's title is "Brilliant Disguise; Light, Matter, and the Zero Point Field."  i could post it here, but don't want to hog the thread any more than i have already.
 
i have learned that google is not your friend; allegedly, duckduckgo doesn't compile data on your searches to make a profile of you which is then sold, like many corporate entities do today.
Logical Man Added Aug 12, 2018 - 10:29pm
If it is the lowest possible energy state, how do you extract energy from it?
Thermodynamics is a bitch
The Casimir Effect is about virtual particles and  is only noticeable over very short distances - to do with the allowed wavelengths of the particles involved and its limitation between two very closely spaced flat plates.
Not very relevant on any larger scale.
 
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 12, 2018 - 10:50pm
Facepalm - Alas, for me SAP stands for the SAP corporation, creator of business enterprise software that my corporation adopted in the '90's and beyond. My involvement in the transition to SAP kept me employed for many additional years, but nothing in that employment had to do with anything extraterrestrial.
Doug Plumb Added Aug 13, 2018 - 7:21am
Logical Man. Religion about the "sky God" is for children. Christianity is a philosophy that is cognitively out of reach for most. So most Christians accept the dogma knowing there is a reason for it. Lots of very intelligent people are not philosophers and do not seek the inner meaning of Christian religion. The other religions are cults based on man made dogma and ambitions, and have no real "depth" in the discernment of reason. This is why Christianity doesn't require a church.
As far as space exploration goes, several NASA folks have admitted to man never having left lower earth orbit, like it or not.
Doug Plumb Added Aug 13, 2018 - 7:22am
re "So ol Faced wants to out batshit crazy PlumbDoug's conspiracy theories with UFOs.  LOL. "
 
I have never said that I believe in the visitations of earth by little green men, here or elsewhere.
 
opher goodwin Added Aug 13, 2018 - 7:27am
EABC -a great post. Yes I agree we do need to have those frontiers and explorations. It was very disappointing that the manned trips to the moon fizzled out and space exploration has virtually been on hold for fifty years.
I would suggest that the two other frontiers we need to explore are the depths of our oceans and human consciousness. Both are in dire need of exploration.
opher goodwin Added Aug 13, 2018 - 7:28am
BTW - did you know that Davy Crockett had three ears?? His left ear, his right ear and his wild front ear.
David Montaigne Added Aug 13, 2018 - 7:38am
If major governments like America, Russia, and China are not in agreement that we are in contact with aliens and must avoid WWIII on Earth, then we will not have serious space programs.  We will waste money and effort to compete for bigger shares of the Earth.  If, however, governments know about aliens and have agreements (secret or open) to unify humanity, quickly or gradually - only then, without the threat of major war and competition down below, can we possibly hope to put serious effort into space.
 
I strongly suspect we already have such an agreement, that there are already plans to acclimate humanity to a planetary government and eventual fraternity with some kind of Federation like Star Trek has, and that some humans are already using secret technology far ahead of what the public knows about.
 
I also suspect that the cosmic cycles of periodic destruction are known too, by human governments and aliens, and that many changes are being delayed until the aftermath of the coming pole shift.
 
Of course, I could be wrong.
Dino Manalis Added Aug 13, 2018 - 8:39am
 Space exploration is unstoppable, but the goal should be to improve life on Earth, we have lots of problems to solve and money is limited.
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 13, 2018 - 10:18am
Opher - Groan!  Good pun.
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 13, 2018 - 10:21am
David - I wonder whether anyone has really done any contingency planning in the event of contact with aliens. It would be good if it has, but as fractious as the people of the world are at present, the concept of forming a united front of humanity seems out of reach to me. Unfortunately we are more likely to see more divisive actions taken like the current one to create a Space Force. Why do I have images of Mel Brooks movies coming to mind here?
opher goodwin Added Aug 13, 2018 - 12:56pm
I fear contact with aliens would be a disaster in some ways. Coming into contact with a more technological culture proved catastrophic for most cultures on tis planet. It completely demoralised them, took away their whole self-esteem and undermined the cohesion that gave them purpose. Most have never really recovered.
On the other hand it would certainly pull the rug out from under the feet of all the religious fundamentalists.
FacePalm Added Aug 13, 2018 - 3:08pm
Logical Man-
If it is the lowest possible energy state, how do you extract energy from it?
If i knew, i'd be either rich, dead, or a prisoner somewhere, more likely than not.

Thermodynamics is a bitch

Is it?

The Casimir Effect is about virtual particles and  is only noticeable over very short distances - to do with the allowed wavelengths of the particles involved and its limitation between two very closely spaced flat plates.

The Casimir Effect is what proved that the theoretical existence of the zero point field is not so theoretical at all - and, in fact, is extant.

Not very relevant on any larger scale.

Says who?  There are many currently investigating the way to harness this immense field of energy, and some who've had limited success, e.g. Bedini and Bearden.  I strongly suspect that the secretive facilities @ Broom Lake, Lockheed's Skunkworks, and various other bases around America, above and below ground, have had far greater successes.
i take it that you either didn't watch - or don't care to - the Sirius Disclosure...and neither did you search out the article by Bernhard Haisch.
FacePalm Added Aug 13, 2018 - 3:11pm
Even A Broken Clock-
Thanks for explaining what SAP means in your world.  *grin*  i'm glad i didn't assume too strongly that i knew what you meant by it.
Jeff Michka Added Aug 13, 2018 - 4:18pm
Faced gathers his feloow conspiracy fans...UFos and you try to bad mouth me, conspiracy theorist?  Yeah, it's because those UFOs are real, we need a "space force." LOL Yeah, you are just another batshit crazy, Faced,  It will follow you around.  What world are you in, Faced?
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 13, 2018 - 4:57pm
Opher, agree with you that the risks are great concerning contact with advanced civilizations. And it would challenge the fundamentalists who firmly believe that every word of the current version of their text is verbatim transcribed from God.
 
But it doesn't answer those of us who marvel at how this universe was assembled, and how finely it is crafted to create so many niches for forms of life to come into being. For those reasons, I think there actually is a why when you consider the origin of the universe.
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 13, 2018 - 5:00pm
Zero point energy is not something I'm totally familiar with, but certainly there needs to be something that accounts for the "dark energy" that is required to fit our standard model of physics into the observations that we keep making. Don't know about the rest of you, but I have difficulty in comprehending a situation where everything we can observe (all matter and electromagnetic radiation) accounts for only 5% of the energy and matter needed to explain the universe. That's one hell of a fudge factor.
Logical Man Added Aug 13, 2018 - 5:43pm
I may be in good company regarding my views on thermodynamics.
 
Classical thermodynamics ... is the only physical theory of universal content which I am convinced ... will never be overthrown.
— Albert Einstein
 
Spartacus Added Aug 13, 2018 - 6:08pm
Humanity needs a frontier in order to provide meaning to our existence.
 
Well, no.  I disagree.
 
But for $400 you can buy a VR headset.  Put those on, load up Google Earth VR, and prepare for your mind to be blown. 
You won't need a $100 billion dollar space mission to fulfill your "meaning of life" needs.
 
Hell, you can even explore Mars in VR.  There's an app for that too.
Feels like you are right there minus the green men, lethal radiation, and inevitable death that would result with today's technology.
FacePalm Added Aug 13, 2018 - 9:10pm
Mouse-
Every post you make testifies as to who you are and what you're on about.
As to UFO's, only the completely oblivious, locked-up-tight, and obstinately ignorant mind can continue to blithely ignore the evidence.  Even MSM has published/broadcast the tapes of USAF pilots reporting on craft that can do what no earthly craft can do.  Tucker Carlson, in particular, did a piece on that, twice, iirc.
 
LM-
Despite Einstein's obvious genius, he'd be the first to admit he's not the repository of all knowledge.  Besides, i have no idea what the "laws of thermodynamics" ARE, so whatever point you're trying to make is lost on me.  Progress in understanding is often made by those who are either ignorant of so-called "laws," or find curious exceptions to them and pursue the "why" of it.  The point i thought i made clearly is that many men have solemnly pronounced things as "impossible" which subsequently were proven absolutely possible, e.g. the "heavier than air craft will never fly" bullshit.  Oh, and "Trump has NO chance of being president."
 
William Stockton-
I am deeply suspicious of any "virtual reality" scenario, as one may well be opening their minds to any kind of pernicious "programming" the designer decided to put into it(or the company owner decided to add in later) - and it's NOT REALITY.  It's an escape.  Maybe fun to do on occasion, but i sure as hell ain't trusting MY mind to computer programmers, especially given the knowledge of the effectiveness of subliminal programming.  i'm not trusting people who work for gaggle, facespace, tweeter, or any OTHER silicon valley leftist org allied with the socialist nightmare scenario NWO/OWG slugs as far as i can personally heave a 10'x10' brick wall.
FacePalm Added Aug 13, 2018 - 9:24pm
Even A Broken Clock-
Zero point energy is not something I'm totally familiar with,
i'm thinkin' that - especially based on first, the responses, and second, the ignorance and unwillingness to investigate i've seen demonstrated - that very few have a clue, especially on this thread.
 
but certainly there needs to be something that accounts for the "dark energy" that is required to fit our standard model of physics into the observations that we keep making.
i'm certainly no physicist by any stretch of the imagination, but i'm certainly open to learning; ever hear the old saw about how "PhD" just means "piled higher and deeper"?  Most PhD's have gotten to the threshold of knowing that there's a VAST amount of things they do NOT know, if they're honest ones.
 
Don't know about the rest of you, but I have difficulty in comprehending a situation where everything we can observe (all matter and electromagnetic radiation) accounts for only 5% of the energy and matter needed to explain the universe. That's one hell of a fudge factor.
LOL!  Yeah, i'm with ya, there.
I have trouble with even feebly leaning toward a modicum of comprehension of the extraordinary distances involved just in this solar system, much less the Milky Way spiral galaxy, much less the billions upon billions of OTHER galaxies in the Universe.  The minds of most, imo, quail at immensities literally beyond comprehension OR imagination, and few dare even spend much time contemplating anything that big.  Have you ever laid on the grass under a night sky, staring up into the vastnesses of space, and pretended you could fall into the sky?  Some scary shit, there, and potential proof of "If you stare deeply into the Abyss, the Abyss will stare deeply into YOU."
Doug Plumb Added Aug 13, 2018 - 10:23pm
re "EABC -a great post. Yes I agree we do need to have those frontiers and explorations. It was very disappointing that the manned trips to the moon fizzled out and space exploration has virtually been on hold for fifty years."
 
Too many people involved in a scam like this to carry it over time. Maybe if the chief astronaught got on TV and said it was all a fraud you might listen. There is increased chanced of that happening if they were to carry the program over generations. Too many people knowing too much.
Logical Man Added Aug 13, 2018 - 10:34pm
FP, if you don't understand thermodynamics you don't understand one of the main underpinnings of modern physics.
Hardly helps your argument if 'it's lost on you'.
James Travil Added Aug 13, 2018 - 10:35pm
"Maybe if the chief astronaught got on TV and said it was all a fraud you might listen. "
And maybe if the Pope got on TV and told everyone that Christianity was a man-made scam you might listen, but you are so blind and brainwashed that I highly doubt it. 
FacePalm Added Aug 13, 2018 - 11:02pm
LM-
Frankly, since i didn't bring up thermodynamics, nor do i give a fuck about them or "modern physics" as being man-made limitations on perceptions of reality, if you don't care to explain what you're talking about instead of pretending to some kind of absolute/superior knowledge, then i'm totally uninterested.
 
i'm not "arguing" anything; i don't particularly care for them, in fact.
 
i'm talking about things that are BEYOND our understanding, that VIOLATE so-called "laws."  Refusal to explore is to submit to limitations/chains.  "Logic," in and of itself - and BY itself - has NO chance of explaining everything in the universe.  Try logic on women, for example.  i won't be holding my breath...
FacePalm Added Aug 14, 2018 - 12:16am
As an aside, people like to talk about the genius of Albert Einstein all the time - but hardly anyone ever mentions his brother, Frank.
...he was a monster.
wsucram15 Added Aug 14, 2018 - 1:19am
EABC..SAP is something that will keep anyone employed.  I worked in SAP for almost 4 years.  I still get calls because I worked in SAP.
 
Doug Plumb Added Aug 14, 2018 - 9:49am
re "As to UFO's, only the completely oblivious, locked-up-tight, and obstinately ignorant mind can continue to blithely ignore the evidence.  Even MSM has published/broadcast the tapes of USAF pilots reporting on craft that can do what no earthly craft can do.  Tucker Carlson, in particular, did a piece on that, twice, iirc."
 
lol. MSM says it so it must be true.
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 14, 2018 - 10:27am
William, I think you may be right for some people. Especially now that we've all grown so accustomed to interacting with screens and visual displays that we seek to eliminate as much face-to-face contact as possible. But I still maintain that we need that rough edge to our civilization, one area where all the rules are not established, so that the non-conformists can do meaningful things. If the frontier is not available, then humans tend to turn on one another to create the same conditions, only they hurt others, not just put themselves at risk.
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 14, 2018 - 10:31am
FP - in my course of study (chemical engineering), thermodynamics was so crucial they taught it both in physical chemistry, and in a chemical engineering class. It is the basic grounding of all physical processes. Could I go back and do the calculations like I had to in college? No, but having understood the concepts is enough. 
 
Quantum things, though, that's another whole field altogether. Entangled states of matter, action at a distance, all sorts of weird things.
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 14, 2018 - 10:35am
Jeanne - I spent 15 years doing master data work in SAP. By the time I was done, I was glad that I didn't get an offer to consult. But it's funny how it grabs you - we got a box from some e-commerce that had the code MD02 on it. My initial reaction was do a MRP run on a box?   SAP humor there.
opher goodwin Added Aug 14, 2018 - 11:19am
EABC - I'd love to meet the little green people just to see the faces of those fundamentalists. That'd be worth it.
The universe is amazing. Where it came from and the birth of life and consciousness are well worth pursuing. But for me I see not a vestige of design. I see basic physical laws and chance playing games in an infinite system full of matter, more than we can possibly imagine, and with more time than the human mind can cope with.
Spartacus Added Aug 14, 2018 - 3:44pm
I am deeply suspicious of any "virtual reality" scenario, as one may well be opening their minds to any kind of pernicious "programming" . . .
 
FacePalm, don't knock it till you try it! 
 
Although, you will have to remove your tinfoil hat  :)
Spartacus Added Aug 14, 2018 - 3:55pm
I think you may be right for some people.
 
EABC, it is not a matter of being "right" for some people.  There is pragmatism in saying that we should not explore outer space with any human.  We could fund 100 robot missions to Mars compared to the same cost as ONE human mission.  In those 100 missions, we could collect more data, make more important science discoveries than any human could ever do.
 
What you want is a new Star Trek episode.  You want a new Apollo program that inspired hopes of the human race becoming star children.  Those are just fantasies.  The Apollo program was entirely a military mission in competition with USSR.  If you don't believe me, perhaps Neil deGrasse Tyson might convince you.
Jeff Michka Added Aug 14, 2018 - 6:16pm
Ol Faced still wants it to be "all about Jeff," which is fine, but you don't know who I am, or what I think:  here's a hint.  I don't think much of the rightist Faced, laugh at your UFOs and, hence at you.  Yup, you are a batshit crazy.  And even ol PlumbDoug doesn't want time in Face's "conspiracy corner."  PlumbDoug is all about the space  program created by Stanley Kubrick, is a certified "Sandyhook School shooting whacko, so yOU CAN FORGIVE HIM IF HE DOESN'T WANT OVER THE EDGE WITH YOUR UFOs, Faced.  Have another drink.  There are greys standing behind your chair.  Geezus.  So there's a reason why you think Hillary Clinton is the biggest criminal since Al Capone and Charles Manson.  Total rightist idiot.  "They" are gonna get ya', Faced.  LOL
Logical Man Added Aug 14, 2018 - 7:18pm
FacePalm, to quote you....
'Frankly, since i didn't bring up thermodynamics, nor do i give a fuck about them or "modern physics" as being man-made limitations on perceptions of reality, if you don't care to explain what you're talking about instead of pretending to some kind of absolute/superior knowledge, then i'm totally uninterested.'
Having spent 3 years studying chemistry and astronomy at university I think I put the work in. I didn't stop my studies of science at that point but have continued for the past 40 odd years, branching out into other subjects such as cosmology, geology and particle physics among others.
There's only one way to get 40 years of experience at anything - put in 40 years work. I'm afraid I can't do that for you.
I don't pretend to be superior, I just know my stuff. If you know less than I do about a subject I think that makes me superior in that subject, but I'm the first to admit I'm crap at some things.
If you live in the modern world where just about everything that affects your life depends on modern physics, you are doing yourself a disservice not to at least try to understand some of it. Thermodynamics is pretty much the bedrock on which most physics is built and is therefore a good place to start. If a theory defies thermodynamics IT IS WRONG.
 
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 14, 2018 - 7:19pm
Opher - thus we get to the root of all of the existential questions facing our species. Was there any input to the process of creation through the big bang, enabling our universe to exist, or was it strictly a random event that was bound to happen, and we are the happy accident that has resulted. In other words, was there a creator? Not necessarily one who keeps track of each of his/her creatures actions and keeps score to see who is following the rules, but maybe one who was playing in the backyard with the Universe-Are-Easy kit, following the directions and setting off this version. Douglas Adams is a theological influence on me.
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 14, 2018 - 7:24pm
William, I quite agree with you that pragmatically, it is much better to send unmanned probes. But I will argue that you will never capture the heart and soul of the human spirit until there are people out there, risking their lives on the opportunity to pull humanity up by our bootstraps in order to be better. That's why you will have folks who will volunteer for missions in deep space, knowing that the extra radiation they will encounter will shorten their lifespan even if they are able to overcome all of the issues involved with going to the moon or Mars and returning safely.
 
On my blog, someone asked me why we are only going to low earth orbit. I had to explain that the ISS is inside of the protective barriers of the magnetic field of the earth, and that if you went outside of that, you would incur all of the risks of exposure to the solar wind.
 
Ideally we do both, continued unmanned exploration, and manned missions at least to the moon and Mars over the next few decades.
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 14, 2018 - 7:26pm
Face - as I gave credit to Opher for his pun, I also give you credit for the one with Boris Karloff.
FacePalm Added Aug 14, 2018 - 9:38pm
EABC-
Frank Einstein.  i prefer the "Young" version done by Mel Brooks, with Peter Boyle playing the Monster.  My favorite scene was in the woods in the blind woodcutter's cabin, and his repeated attempts to put a ladle of hot soup into the monster's bowl, which instead always landed in the monster's lap.
 
LM-
If a theory defies thermodynamics IT IS WRONG.
What part of "if you don't care enough to explain it, i don't give a fuck about it" did you not understand?
 
 
opher goodwin Added Aug 15, 2018 - 6:16am
EABC - now there is the nub of the matter. Put aside all the religious books that were so obviously written by man and one still has the major questions about creation and death. 
For me it is obvious - there is not.
The very idea of a creator is such a human concept and merely kicks the can down the road. It creates more unknowns than it answers:
We cannot conceive of something coming from nothing.
We solve this by having a superbeing who is capable of creating things from nothing.
What does that solve? Nothing! How logical is it? Not logical at all! Is there any evidence for this superbeing? None whatsoever. 
We still have a universe created out of nothing.
We now have a superbeing who has come from nowhere with the ability to create whole universes. How incredible is that?
Where did this superbeing come from?
Who created him?
He has to be even more incredible than the universe doesn't he? How can that happen?
What was his motive?
Where was he before the universe was created?
It certainly doesn't make any sense to me. It sounds like a human construct to explain the unknowable, nothing more.
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 15, 2018 - 8:54pm
Face - I cannot argue with you regarding your preference for Mel Brooks versions vs. the original movie. The only thing I'll say is that it is a shame how many of the actors in that move are no longer alive. We lost some great comedic talent from that cast. Yet Mel is still having fun (thank goodness)!
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 15, 2018 - 8:56pm
Opher - your points are more than valid. This is the ultimate question after all. Is there a source that helped to design physical properties of the universe, or is it all a random occurrence. For me, Occam's razor says that something influenced the starting conditions in order to allow matter to form. Beyond that, I cannot say.
Logical Man Added Aug 15, 2018 - 9:15pm
What part of 'put in 40 years work' did you not understand?
At my age I haven't got that much time left and I doubt you'd sit still that long.
But I'll have a go at getting you started.
As the old proverb says, a long journey starts with a single step.
Thermodynamics
 
Logical Man Added Aug 15, 2018 - 9:19pm
EABC, one idea is that multiple universes come into existence with different physical laws. Most are unstable and last vanishingly short times. We know of one that's been around for a while (in human terms, at least). Only the relatively stable one(s) last long enough for sentient beings to come into existence and ask such questions.
Even A Broken Clock Added Aug 16, 2018 - 1:37pm
Logical, you are correct, and to some extend this ties into the points that Opher makes as well. The fact that we are able to observe the universe we live in, automatically shows that we have a stable universe with properties that enable matter to exist. That we even can observe implies a lot. Now, as you imply, this may be one of the who knows how many universes that wink into and out of existence. But this one we are sure of, because we are here.
Logical Man Added Aug 16, 2018 - 6:14pm
Try going down the String Theory road.
It's an attempt at making relativity and quantum theory play nice together. Theory seems to show promise, but the experiments required to verify things are way beyond even LHC.
Not the easiest idea to get your head around.
 
 
Logical Man Added Aug 16, 2018 - 7:05pm
EABC, ever hear of Richard Feynman?
Amazing guy, not just scientifically.
Nobel Prize for Quantum Electrodynamics - the most accurately predictive physical theory any human has come up with. Best known for Feynman Diagrams describing the interactions of fundamental particles.
Also known for outing NASA's lies regarding the Challenger disaster.
If I could choose one human, past or present, that I'd like to sit down over a few beers with he'd be at the top of the list.
Here's a very small taste Feynman
If you want to go deeper try this More Feynman - I'd particularly recommend Los Alamos from below - only audio - to get a feel for the guy's character.
FacePalm Added Aug 17, 2018 - 6:02pm
Thanks, LM, for supplying the link.  i did read it all, and it seems to boil down to "TANSTAAFL."(for non-Heinlein fans, "T.here A.in't N.o S.uch T.hing A.s A. F.ree L.unch")
 
However, you still may wish to apprise yourself of the Zero Point field, aka the 'Dirac Sea,' in more ancient electrical/electronics theory.  Pretty sure Tesla was aware of it, one way or another.
 
To get you started, then:  Brilliant Disguise: Light, Matter, and the Zero Point Field.
 
WR-
 
FP
Logical Man Added Aug 17, 2018 - 8:41pm
FP, likewise thanks for the link. Interesting ideas.
I still don't see how you can extract energy from its lowest point. It's a bit like getting water to flow uphill, which is energy negative if you pump the stuff.
The math of String Theory also has things that are called physical laws just be a natural consequence of the theory.
Mathematics appears to be a keyhole into the complexities of nature.
I tried to find a book I read recently on string theory. No luck right now, but I'll try again tomorrow. On the subject of books, you might enjoy 'The View From The Center of The Universe' by Joel R Primack and Nancy Ellen Abrams. I'll get back to you on the other one ASAP.
Make sure to check out Mr. Feynman.
FacePalm Added Aug 19, 2018 - 6:47am
LM-
Thanks for taking the time to read the article.
i found his theory comparing the ZPE to an Omnipresent form of light to be of the greatest interest, esp. his explanation in re: why we are blind to it, as well as his description of how F=MA was proven instead of assumed, like most blindly accept...which was the point i was attempting to make, however poorly/profanely, that is; it is only the skeptical, the explorers, those who do not accept "laws" as being entirely true in all circumstances as make the great breakthroughs.
 
Anyhow, like i said earlier i have little clue as how one might tap into this enormous field of energy; i bought Bearden's book, but it is filled with equations written in calculus, which i don't understand.  He invented the 'MEG' or "Motionless Electromagnetic Generator," and the theory for how it works is in his book.  Here's a link to youtube search results, one of which is has "energy from the vacuum," in it' title, which is also the name of his book, iirc. 
 
Bedini had observed that occasionally, there would be a "burst" of energy either from this field or as a result of something interacting with it, which he was able to tap into and turn into rotation - but not much usable energy resulted, best i could tell.  That said, his method for re-charging batteries seems to be quite brilliant.  Here is a link to vids about Bedini and his generator(s), as well.
 
Bearden also wrote a rather interesting/glowing report about one Viktor Klimov, a Russian who once worked at Los Alamos, who allegedly invented a nano-crystalline solar cell which outputs far more energy than is input; Bearden extrapolates that a brick-sized stack of these cells - if a photon-emitting compound like tourmaline was incorporated into the structure - could easily output enough energy to satisfy the electrical demands of an entire house, iirc.  (been awhile since i read the article, but it's linked.)
Logical Man Added Aug 20, 2018 - 8:35pm
The thing is that, if humans could manage energy sensibly (???!!!) we have a nice handy thermonuclear energy plant with a likely lifetime of about 4 billion more years. The earth receives more energy from the sun in an hour than humans use in a year.
The tech exists. We don't need exotic ZPE to fulfill our needs, just the will to exploit what's there clean and mostly for free in a manner that benefits everyone, not just the few.
All interesting stuff to be sure, but not required to solve our problems.
FacePalm Added Aug 20, 2018 - 10:04pm
Well, here's the major problem with solar.
Night --- and cloudy days.
 
ZPE is completely non-polluting and inexhaustible, like the sun.  It is omnipresent, so it's available everywhere imaginable...from the deepest depth of the deepest ocean to the empty quarters between galaxies, to the very center of any star.
 
But many people have many ideas on how to solve energy problems.  Surely some will work for one group, and another for another, as they have need. 
 
i recall that the solar farms in the deserts - especially the ones with rotating mirrors which focus on a peak - routinely cook a good-size flock of birds every month, which will eventually present a problem.  OTOH, according to Bearden, stacks of Klimov's nano-solar crystals could work even in the dark by means of the aforementioned tourmaline...and be far less damaging to anything in the environment, as well.  i found his theories as to their use as weaponry equally fascinating, as he says that the possession of one such device hooked to a functional laser could decimate entire armored columns and knock jets out of the sky, thus revolutionizing ground warfare permanently.
 
But i hope you took a chance and watched at least some of the recommended vids, and thanks for replying.