Poor communities create their own getto's

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Recently I revisited a place that was once very nice and sadly noticed it's gone to heck in a handbag, many of the stores have closed, there were no markets, and even fast food was hard to find.  I went into a few that remained and was told horror stories about theft and vandalism that was so bad that even the few places that were left were being put out of business. 

 

While I was there I saw lots of people riding those new rental bikes, then noticed most had removed or disabled the parts that lock and track them; they stole them.  I stopped in a fast food restaurant and saw a steady flow of people walking in with cups and sports bottles, that they filled up at the beverage bar, and then left without paying.  The employees told me that goes on all day and there is nothing they can do about it. 

 

I went into some stores and noticed lots of people sitting inside doing nothing.  The store owners told me that happens every day and gets real bad when the weather is bad, it's almost like they turn into a homeless shelter.  They also said many steal things all the time and there is little the shops can do because trying to detain thieves over small items while waiting for the police is risky and fruitless, the police won't do much even if they wait for them to show up. 

 

I often hear people say it's not fair that the only stores in many poor communities are liquor stores, but that's only half the story, the other half is WHY?  The reason is because people in poor communities aren't willing to ban together and protect businesses in their own neighborhood so they can afford to stay there.  As a result there are few businesses, places where they can buy healthy food, or jobs in those neighborhoods, and it's their own fault.

Comments

Dino Manalis Added Sep 11, 2018 - 1:34pm
 Poor communities shouldn't remain isolated, they have to be part of urban enterprise zones to boost businesses; investments; and jobs.
Jeff Michka Added Sep 11, 2018 - 3:17pm
Rusted's latest rightist rant.  Yeah, it's all the fault of those poor people just not doing enough to as YOU say, "ban together to 'protect' businesses in their own neighborhoods."  Of course, that's the problem and solution.  Why not get together with your fellow 2nd amendment fanatics, and pass out firearms to those poor people so they can keep those businesses in place.  More nonsoultions from a rightist.  You need to insult and demean poor people a bit better so you can actually help the Ts win midterms.  You don't know anything about food deserts or how businesses are employed to "move people along."  It doesn't work, but that doesn't mean it's not done. 
Katharine Otto Added Sep 11, 2018 - 3:37pm
Rusty,
It's sad, but I've noticed, too, how little neighborhood cohesiveness exists in poor neighborhoods.  Even those in more affluent neighborhoods seem disconnected from each other, and don't even know their neighbors.  Simple things, like a neighborhood walking club, or dog-walking group, could get people out and about.  There's a public housing neighborhood here that has a terrible litter problem.  What might happen if the city provided some dumpsters in strategic locations?  Might people use them to clean up their yards?
 
In these poor neighborhoods, would simple amenities like benches or green spaces be helpful?  I don't think solutions need be costly.  More people on the streets would probably cut down on crime.
Ken Added Sep 11, 2018 - 3:47pm
This is very much like all those riots where they go in and vandalize and loot their own neighborhoods.  What business wants to move into an area like this to help revitalize it?  They create their own downward spiral due to a lack of self respect and responsibility.
Jeff Michka Added Sep 11, 2018 - 3:57pm
Katherine Otto, of course, speaks sense.  Kenny the rightist raves rightist talking points.  Here's one for you, Katherine.  While doing some community work in Kansas City, MO, I spoke with a community group that had been been holding Saturday (weekly) meetings in a Mcdonald's restaurant for over a decade.  The folks there seemed rather capable and had tried to solve some serious problems affecting the immediate neighborhood.  And yeah, some of those simple solutions you mention DO work.  But, Kenny, being a fervent rightist will insist people living in poor areas lack self respect and responsibility.  As usual, offers no examples, just his rightist raving.  Don't worry, Kenny, nobody wants you to help out, you aren't needed, and so far have offered nothing but ideology and dogma,  How unique on WB.
Ken Added Sep 11, 2018 - 4:31pm
Jeff.  Try reading comprehension.  I was referring to an area like the one described in the OP.  What business would want to move in and revitalize a community like that?  It is looking for trouble and a losing proposition.  Unlike people on the left believe, nothing is free, and while the government can sustain itself by stealing other people's money, private corporations don't have that luxury, so when people decide their products are free, they go out of business.  What business would want to move in to that kind of environment?
 
  What examples of riots where they are vandalizing and looting their own neighborhoods?  You mean you had your head in the sand through Ferguson?  Baltimore?  Oakland?  That is exactly what they did.
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 11, 2018 - 5:06pm
I think we should start with this Rusty from someone that wants to save his community, his black neighborhood.  "In eulogizing the beloved artist known as the Queen of Soul, the Rev. Jasper Williams Jr. declared that as "proud, beautiful and fine as our black women are, one thing a black woman cannot do — a black woman cannot raise a black boy to be a man."
 
"Hustlers and people with little understanding want us to believe that today's black problems are the continuing result of a legacy of slavery, poverty and racial discrimination. The fact is that most of the social pathology seen in poor black neighborhoods is entirely new in black history.
 
Let's look at some of it.

Today the overwhelming majority of black children are raised in single female headed families. As early as the 1880s, three quarters
of black families were two parent. In 1925 New York City, 85% of black families were two parent. One study of 19th century slave families found that in up to three fourths of the families, all the children had the same mother and father.

Today's black illegitimacy rate of nearly 75% is also entirely new. In 1940, black illegitimacy stood at 14%. It had risen to 25% by 1965, when Daniel Patrick Moynihan wrote "The Negro Family: The Case for National Action" and was widely condemned as a racist. By 1980, the black illegitimacy rate had more than doubled, to 56%, and it has been growing since."  Today it is about 75% and the black community leads all other races in abortions so that rate has been held down by aborting their children.   Back to the article, "Much of today's pathology seen among many blacks is an outgrowth of the welfare state that has made self destructive behavior less costly for the individual. Having children without the benefit of marriage is less burdensome if the mother receives housing subsidies, welfare payments and food stamps. Plus, the social stigma associated with unwed motherhood has vanished. Female headed households, whether black or white, are a ticket for dependency and all of its associated problems. 
 
Ignored in all discussions is the fact that the poverty rate among black married couples has been in single digits since 1994. . . . In 1948, the unemployment rate for black teens was slightly less than that of their white counterparts 9.4% compared with 10.2%."   http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2015/05/20/thetrueblacktragedyn2000459/
 
"Along with the decline of the black family comes anti-social behavior, manifested by high crime rates. . . . Nationally, the black homicide victimization rate is six times that of whites, and in some cities, it's 22 times that of whites. . . . The high crime rates have several outcomes that are not in the best interests of the overwhelmingly law-abiding people in these neighborhoods. There can't be much economic development. Property has a lower value, but worst of all, people can't live with the kind of personal security that most Americans enjoy."     http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2013/07/31/black-selfsabotage-n1651550
 
Rusty only the community can solve the problems you present but until the government stops pouring gasoline on the fire no one can even get close to the fire to put it out.   Survival is by breaking the law in these communities for those that are not employed.  That means robbery, black market for stolen goods,  drugs, and guns to protect the crime territory you control.  Just more gasoline on the fire.
Jeff Michka Added Sep 11, 2018 - 6:15pm
Kenny, the ERWer, beats me up for Rusted's loose narrative, and will note places that have never seen demonstrations can be dealt a blow by government and business working together to put an area "under pressure," in a way hard to combat by residents, respective of how wily they are or "responsible", " and just admit you're an unabashed rightist that doesn't give a tinker's dam about anyone in an inner city, just rightist ideas.  Geezus, Kenny...."by breaking the law....That means robbery, black market for stolen goods, drugs, and guns to protect the crime territory you control."  Same old racist rightist white noise, blaming minorities and poor people.  If they were all a bunch of  neofascist John Waynes, they'd all be okay, huh?  No wonder people say Trumpists are all racists, I don't know about all, but find you a noxious racist and bigot.  You need to get a little more fluid with your racial smears or you won't do what Ts need: Stoking more racial hatred and fear to take the mid terms.  You aren't part of the problem, you are the problem.
Logical Man Added Sep 11, 2018 - 8:22pm
When the country is run by criminals those who have had almost everything taken away by them will try to even things up somehow, in some cases anyhow.
 
 
 
Rusty Smith Added Sep 11, 2018 - 9:33pm
This is not a racial issue, it happens all over the country wherever people are allowed to vandalize and steal with impunity.  
 
Poor people with criminal records have little to lose if they are confronted or even caught by the police.  What could the police possibly do to them for stealing a six pack of beer or soft drinks from the soda bar?  They wreck their neighborhood and then complain about it.
 
Some posters get it right, no one wants to invest in a store in a neighborhood where it's going to get vandalized and stolen from on a regular basis, there is no money in it, only greif. 
 
Posters who think people like me have no heart, well I suggest you consider putting your money where you very generous mouth is, and invest in stores in those economically depressed areas, if you dare.  Realize of course that any money you invest is really a donation that will probably disappear when the store goes bankrupt.  Is there really a difference between people like you who despise people like me, if you don't step up and do anything different than I do to help those people?
Jeff Michka Added Sep 11, 2018 - 10:18pm
Where, o, where great rightist Rusted, are people allowed to "vandalize and steal with impunity."  Where, fascist?  You not only lack a heart, you lack a mind and courage, dismissing attempts to improve the lot of some inner city neighborhoods YOU, Rusted don't live in, and are probably afraid to drive through without a pistol in your hand, of course the confederate flag decals and bumperstickers with "The Best thing about MLK Jr. is he's dead." might give you away.  Probably shouldn't wear that white sheet and pointy hat, either, unless you are at home with the wife and kids.
Ken Added Sep 11, 2018 - 10:40pm
" and just admit you're an unabashed rightist that doesn't give a tinker's dam about anyone in an inner city, just rightist ideas.  Geezus, Kenny...."by breaking the law....That means robbery, black market for stolen goods, drugs, and guns to protect the crime territory you control."  Same old racist rightist white noise, blaming minorities and poor people.
 
and again you show your lack of reading comprehension by blaming me and quoting me for something I didn't say.
 
Prove how I am a racist or a bigot.  Show me one thing I have posted here that would indicate that?
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 12, 2018 - 8:41am
Ken, I am the person that Jeffrey boy is quoting,  I admit it.  Jeffrey boy is one of the gasoline throwers. 
 
Jeffrey boy doesn't know what to do when I say that the majority of the people are not bigots and the election of Obama and Trump both indicate that.  Black represent ~14% of the population and have been voting for democrats since ~ 1936 at above 80%. No person can win on just their vote.  They need lots of white votes.  Obama inspired 8M additional voters then Clinton his first term.  Not achieving his promises (the public's understanding) resulted in only 4M additional voters to get re-elected where the GOP candidates were flat, only 1M change: McCain, Romney, and Trump.  What clearer sign that Americans are not bigots.  The women that have been on national tickets shows the parties recognize that being female is not a problem for voters. 
 
The police react after a crime is committed.  They arrive as part of clean up and they prioritize their limited resources.  Rusty just present the choices made by the police.
Ari Silverstein Added Sep 12, 2018 - 9:27am
I don’t believe any place exists like the one you just described.  By your own admission, this place doesn’t exist as you say “as a result there are few businesses.”  Think about it, what restaurant would stay in business if there were a steady flow of people taking food without paying?  What business owner would pay lots of people to do nothing?
 
The reason there are poor neighborhoods is because poor people have to live somewhere.  Where they live there are usually a host of issues that aren’t easily solved.  It’s not their fault or necessarily the fault of anyone.  However, one thing you’ll notice in poor neighborhoods is usually liberal leadership in government.  So whatever things the neighborhood could do to improve things, is likely not being done. 
Steel Breeze Added Sep 12, 2018 - 10:18am
this scenario crosses all ethnic,racial,etc made up labels...a human failing today....
Rusty Smith Added Sep 12, 2018 - 10:49am
Ken feel free to ignore Jeff Michka, his specialty is insulting people and if you look at all his posts in other forums you will see he repeats the same insults in most of the forums he adds comments to.  
 
If you engage him he will follow you around and continue to throw out the same insults over and over hoping to get you to engage him more.  I don't think he has what it takes to intelligently discuss the topics, he may be a child, so you might think twice about saying anything to him that you wouldn't want to be quoted saying to a child.  
 
I just ignore him and by now most other regular forum participants don't pay any attention to what he says.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 12, 2018 - 10:57am
Ari Silverstein I think there are many places like that, and this one is very real.  You're right there are a lot of homeless there, and I see in the news that it's a huge problem for that city.  I don't know how many of the people helping themselves to the beverages were homeless, they don't wear armbands identifying themselves.
 
The fast food joint I was in had a beverage bar just like many others I see, and yes there was a steady flow of people bringing cups and sports bottles in and helping themselves.  The young staff did nothing, they were afraid to do anything, I asked.
 
Just what is it that you think I was exaggerating, perhaps I can provide more details.
Katharine Otto Added Sep 12, 2018 - 11:47am
Rusty,
People seem to be talking about several different issues here. I believe your comments were about people who already live in crime-ridden neighborhoods.  What can they do to save their neighborhoods so that businesses will want to stay or to move in?  
 
I appreciate Jeff Michka for saying I talk sense and that some of my ideas do work, but these thoughts got sidetracked.  I agree that people have come to depend on government to rescue them, but we've seen how unrealistic that is, for reasons you mention.  The jails are overcrowded, and police simply don't want to do the paperwork involved in petty crime, especially in neighborhoods known for it.  
 
It's in the best interests of those single-parent households to get friendly with neighbors, for their mutual safety, and to provide eyes on the street so that people know who lives in the neighborhood, and who the bad actors are.  For their kids' benefit, if nothing else.  
 
I suspect these people don't realize they can make a difference, even with simple gestures, such as talking to neighbors about shared concerns.  Who is going to tell them?
Ken Added Sep 12, 2018 - 12:05pm
Black represent ~14% of the population and have been voting for democrats since ~ 1936 at above 80%
 
It wasn't until the mid to late 60s they went crazy democrat.  They didn't understand that it was the republicans that were pushing all the civil rights legislation
 
I know it was you that said it and I know he is an absurd bomb thrower.  I was just pointing out to him, yet again how he has issues with reading comprehension
Rusty Smith Added Sep 12, 2018 - 12:09pm
Katharine Otto I don't know if the thieves I saw come from single parent households but there sure were lots of them.  If the people in those communities don't police themselves they are going to end up with nothing but liquor stores in their neighborhoods.
 
I feel sorry for the elderly who have no stores they can walk to that will still sell food they can cook at home, and for young adults who will have no way to get to jobs if none are in their general neighborhoods.  I'm sure that's true, they were getting min wage and I'm sure if they could have gotten it closer to home they would have.
 
Years ago I worked for a company that had lots of very poor janitorial staff who all lived far away and spent hours every day on public transportation to get to and from work.  I never visited where they live but was told there were no jobs anywhere close to where they live.   Some told me there were liquor stores around their neighborhoods, but most owned by Asians and they did not hire locals.  They hated the Asians.
Yellow Sub Added Sep 12, 2018 - 2:11pm
Public housing and welfare was meant as a temporary measures.  It gives no incentives for people to want to improve their lives.  Living in gov't provided housing doesn't give these people a sense of pride that ownership would do.  They treat it like how everyone treats a rental car, use it and abuse it because it's not theirs and that's why their community decays.  

It's a victim mentality perpetuated by the Democrats so they have a dependable voting block every election.  Why else would they do all these crazy things to grant voting rights to former felons, all new license registrations, denying Voter ID check, etc.  At least that's what the former Goldmanite governor is doing in NJ.

They are useful tool for the controllers to keep the law fearing dependent on the gov't, would you really need all these cops and waste on security measures if there was no crime?
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 12, 2018 - 2:11pm
Ken, before the 60's civil rights voters rights bills blacks in the south couldn't vote.  Also LBJ was president when the final civil rights bills passed.  The GOP didn't win the media war to tell the public that Eisenhower and the minority party GOP pushed civil rights to top of the pile.  They didn't tell the public that all civil right would have gone down in flames due to Dixiecrat Democrats but for 90% of the GOP congress members voted for civil rights, the GOP was the biggest Dr. Martin Luther King's supporters.  They had his back.   LBJ promptly replaced segregation, Jim Crow, and pole civics tests with Federally controlled welfare.    Ken, the craziness your talking about was due to a jump from about 1/3 of the blacks being able to vote to all of them.
Ken Added Sep 12, 2018 - 2:52pm
 

Public housing and welfare was meant as a temporary measures.
 
Not to the democrats.  That is why Obama took the requirement to work to continue receiving welfare out of the 1996 bill the republicans passed and Clinton signed.
Ken Added Sep 12, 2018 - 2:57pm
Thomas - LBJ was one of the most racist presidents ever.  When he was in t he senate he voted against civil rights legislation.  only a small minority of democrats voted for the 3 civil rights acts of the 60's.  When LBJ signed the civil rights act of 1965 into law he famously stated on Air Force One "Signing this into law, I'll get those N******* to vote democrat for the next 50 years".  He was quite accurate.
 
It is only now with that darned "racist" Trump they are seeing the lies they have been buying into and in the past year and a half, the opportunity they have seen is unparalleled.  He is up to 36% positive rating in the black community as of a couple of weeks ago.
Carole McKee Added Sep 12, 2018 - 3:20pm
I can't comment on the stores in the poor neighborhoods, but I've driven through poor neighborhoods and have wondered why nobody picks up the trash lying around on the sidewalks and in the front yards. I'm by no means wealthy, and I have never lived in a wealthy or exclusive neighborhood, but I have always stooped down to pick up trash or bottles tossed there by some inconsiderate person. I've even bent down and picked up cigarette butts thrown onto the sidewalks by people walkingpassed or those thrown from a car window. 
 
I realize sometimes here is no cash to fix broken items like windows, gutters, and such, but just picking up trash can improve the look of an area. 
Logical Man Added Sep 12, 2018 - 5:46pm
Rusty, Washington is where 'some' people are allowed to vandalize and steal with impunity.
Everyone else is a piker.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 12, 2018 - 6:19pm
Yellow Sub I do believe people from generationally poor cultural backgrounds often stay poor because their cultural values do not include wanting to do anything to escape their poverty, as long as their basic needs for food and shelter are met.  They don't become disgusted with their plight, they are accustomed to it and it's easy to get complacent when your parents never lived any better.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 12, 2018 - 6:23pm
Carole McKee it's not just the trash they ignore, they ignore grafiti and look the other way instead of speaking up when they see stealing or vandalism.  I think many don't care, some are just overwhelmed, and some think those bad behaviors are justified.  Stealing from stores, bike rental companies, or even beverages at fast food places is ok because the business owners are bastards who deserve the trouble and disrespect.  It's not until the businesses close and leave that the people feel the pain.
Ken Added Sep 12, 2018 - 6:31pm
 I do believe people from generationally poor cultural backgrounds often stay poor because their cultural values do not include wanting to do anything to escape their poverty, as long as their basic needs for food and shelter are met. 
 
That is the basic victim mentality that is taught and the permanent underclass the democrats require to secure a voting base.  The move to marxism/socialism is to enlarge that base.  In the attempt to bring a few people up, it brings everybody down.
Jeff Michka Added Sep 12, 2018 - 7:11pm
Rusted wants to tell Steel Wheeze all about me, and "how I follow Rusted around.  OK MR. Rusted Asshole read and comment on only one forum, that way, I can read and comment where I want, and I won't "follow you around." Rusted wants control, but takes no personal responsibility for his stupid, vapid ERW comments.  Never be critical  of racist Rusted.   Clearly, Rusted just has ERW opinions and zero ideas about dealing with food deserts, all the fault of people living in them because they, in his racist words, "commit crimes and vandalism" with impunity. Rusted, he's beyond the pale of criticism.  He's just a Facebooker and a gaslighter.  If you want to "Follow Rusted" around, log into Facedbooked and be a fool there.  He thinks all those people are real friends.  They'll all come over and defend him against poor people..  Keep it going, Rusted, you're making me want to leave WB.  LOL
Frosty Wooldridge Added Sep 12, 2018 - 7:19pm
Yes, Detroit sank into the abyss from welfare and violence.  It dropped from 1.85 million to 650,000 today.  I worked in Detroit and saw it happen first hand. Detroit stands at 90 percent blacks.  In the mid eighties, they shoplifted stores to death, car jackings at stop lights, graffiti everywhere, burned cars, vandalism, home burglaries, schools at 78 percent dropout-flunkout rates as reported by Brian Williams at NBC at the time.  Robberies, break-ins and extortion rackets galore.  Mayor Coleman Young killed the city with his corruption.  In 2009, Time Magazine wrote a full story on the fall of Detroit.  I wrote a counter story on the true origins of the fall of Detroit titled:  "The Tragedy of Detroit."  It still circulates around the Internet as a reminder of what's happening in New York City, Minneapolis, LA, and Chicago.  Unfortunately, illiteracy drives the poverty and low intellectual horsepower, IQs in the 70 to 80 range drives the school failures. Plus, 7 out of 10 black kids arrive fatherless and grow up with single mothers on welfare.  The misery becomes cyclical and a way of life.  And, it won't get better. I taught school in the ghetto for two years. It proved hopeless and a waste of time. I fled and taught in a middle income American district successfully.
triggerfish Added Sep 12, 2018 - 7:40pm
I was a police officer in an economically depressed 3rd class city in Pennsylvania. I saw first hand what happened to that city. It was a thriving city at one time and I do agree with the premises that poor communities create their own ghetto. The problem is that there is a lack of desire to better oneself and the community. In the 40's and 50's each Ethnic Group had their own little section of the city. There were the Italians, Jews, Russians, Poles, Ukrainians and the Blacks. the city had it's problems but each Ethnic Group stepped up and took care of their little section of paradise.
That is not the case any longer, the city is mostly populated by Blacks and for the most part they are trying to 'GAME THE SYSTEM' and they think they are owed something and they will get it one way or the other. The Ethnic Groups of old use to wash and sweep the sidewalks in front of their homes. That no longer occurs because of the apathy in the Black Community. Whole families are born into the projects which were built as living quarters for the Defense Workers during WWII. Those families live their entire lives in the projects and give birth to a new generation of project dwellers.
Businesses were forced to shit down because of rampant crime which affected the bottom line of those businesses. It's unfortunate but it was plain to see that as one segment of society or Ethnic Group began to spread throughout the city it was like a cancer spreading and everything was being destroyed in the path of that Ethic Cancer.
So much potential has just gone to waste. The City is dying because it is populated by people which have no will to succeed or do the right thing.
Ken Added Sep 12, 2018 - 7:44pm
And Detroit has been under democrat control for over half a century.  The 6 most crime-ridden (large) cities in the US are also the 6 cities with the strictest gun control, and all have been under democrat control for over half a century or longer.  Take the statistics of those 6 cities out of the equation and the U.S. is in the bottom 5 countries in the world for gun violence (but nobody has guns there, right?)
 
New Orleans
Chicago
Detroit
Washington, D.C.
Baltimore
St. Louis
 
Logical Man Added Sep 12, 2018 - 8:16pm
You can be officially poor yet live a rich and happy life.
I've always worked at something I would do for free if I could afford to, so money is a secondary, if unavoidable, issue for me.
I've got a small apartment and I don't drive a car, but I don't aspire to a big house and a couple of Beemers in the driveway.
I get my fulfillment from the things I do - Archery & bow making, Calligraphy, mountain biking, hiking.
My most important possession is my health and I look after that very carefully.
You don't own things, things own you.
Jeff Michka Added Sep 12, 2018 - 9:40pm
Gee, Logical Man, you should be a teacher in one of the school districts out here on strike.  There have actually been administrators mumbling about how teachers should be glad to get paid.  They love to teach, love their students, so should work for less.  With district superintendents making $150,00.00 a year, and many getting raises this year obviously can't afford to put food on the table so needed 25% raises (on average) and thse teachers that haven't seen a raise since 2008 should bw grateful for the 1,5-3% raises offered.  Those ingrates!!!
triggerfish Added Sep 12, 2018 - 10:45pm
You can rise above the situation you are in and be happy and receive enjoyment from what you do. Although I was a police officer I enjoy working with my hands. Now that I'm retired I have all the time I want to do what I enjoy and there is satisfaction with taking a piece of rusty metal and transform it into a work of art.
The unfortunate fact with some people is that they find enjoyment in destructive behavior either to themselves or others. They also would rather wallow in the pig sty they have made for themselves instead trying to better their condition.
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 12, 2018 - 11:01pm
triggerfish, also as a retired person I to enjoy what I do.  I do have relatives that are just surviving.  Another in his use broke the law but was never caught.  I can assure you that when they talk about the past or the struggles of present they are not happy.  Yes, they can get some joy in destructive behavior which at the time of actually doing it, they were not being destructive.   Everyone of them want a good job and be productive.  They want what us in the middle class want.  They can not see how to get their.
Robin the red breasted songster Added Sep 13, 2018 - 3:17am
This is, I think, part of a general weakening of community spirit.   We have become too focussed on the individual.
 
Part of this is due to politics.  Part is due to social forces.  Part to the general isolation of modern life.  We just don't know our neighbours in the way that we used to.
 
You probably cannot fix this just by throwing money at it.  It is the people's spirit and pride that somehow needs to be restored.
 
The thing to do, I think, is to focus on things that people can do together to build links between each other.  
 
There is also a problem with the decrease in social mobility caused by the increasing concentration of wealth.  Many people have lost hope that they can "better themselves".  Somehow we need to reverse this trend.
 
And finally, we probably have become too obsessed with "stuff".   When we can't get the "stuff" (whatever the latest fashion item, gadget etc etc might be), we become depressed.   Yet if we do get it, it only provides a short term high followed by the need for more "stuff".   Somehow we need to get away from too much materialism.    Beyond the basic needs for food , shelter, health and security, money doesn't actually make you that much happier.   It is your relationships, sense of achievement and sense of place in the community that drive deeper happiness in the long term.
 
My own personal response to this is to work in community music and heritage projects.   These work well I think because they bring people together.   Several have told me how good working in these has made them feel.  It makes people feel validated and accepted.
 
OK it is a small thing against the overall size of the problem, but if we all did something like this then....
Rusty Smith Added Sep 13, 2018 - 10:17am
Frosty Wooldridge I've never visited Detroit but heard the horror stories and believe your observations are accurate.  I'm not so sure about the IQ part but am sure that the aspirations of fatherless children raised in generational poverty have much more of a tendency to think their poverty lifestyle is normal and acceptable than they would if they didn't grow up in that culture.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 13, 2018 - 10:27am
triggerfish I too have noticed the focus of my local poor black communities seems to be gaming the system to get ahead to the extent that they even tend to belittle and despise honest work.  
 
I see it starting with their kids at school, they make fun of anyone who cooperates with teachers or tries to get good grades.  I can't blame them for not thinking they need a High School diploma if they come from a single mom family and she got pregnant young, has been on social services her whole life and never graduated HS.  Who would their role model be, the local drug dealer, who also doesn't have a degree?
 
I've also seen it in the adults.  Many have figured out they have more to lose by working than by not working so they continue to qualify for every imaginable social service benefit.
Robin the red breasted songster Added Sep 13, 2018 - 10:27am
One of the bands that I play in has it's practice room located in a pretty poor area.   But it is an area where people are pretty reasonable with each other.  We, for example, always finish our practicing by 9:30 each night so as to minimise inconvenience to the neighbours.  We also support events at the community centre... gigging for free a couple of weeks ago.
 
This community, because it is strong, actually exerts control over undesirable elements arriving in the street.  On one occasion all getting together to run them out of the area.   Police seldom need to go down the street because the residents sort out problems themselves.
 
But that is a strong community with self respect if little money.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 13, 2018 - 10:34am
Logical Man I have several friends I go camping and hunting with who live similarly to how you live and they are all quite happy.  I imagine there are lots of people we consider to be living in poverty who are similarly happy with their lives.
 
Truth is that what we consider poverty is a much higher standard of living than half the world has.  I think one of our largest mistakes is our belief that if we provide our "poor" with enough free stuff to give them a lifestyle we think is bare minimum, we simultaneously end  up satisfying a large number of people's desires to the point where they see no reason to work to get more.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 13, 2018 - 10:45am
Robin the red breasted songster I do think many people don't think it's worth the effort to work hard to better themselves, most are content with the lifestyle they grew up in.  Some poor people work hard to escape poverty, and some kids who grow up rich end up poor but most try hard to maintain whatever level of affluence they grew up with.
 
Stuff is nice but it gets boring fast.  Talk to old folks and you'll see they don't spend much time reminiscing about all the stuff they owned as much as they fondly remember all the places they went,  the people the spent time with and all the things they did.  Stuff is secondary.  It's like with the pictures people save.  
 
Most people take hundreds or thousands of pictures over their lifetime, but only hang a few on their walls, and fewer end up treasured possessions by their kids.  The valued ones are rarely of stuff but rather more personal, usually of them with family and friends, in places or at celebrations that were important to them.  A few might be with car, or something else they liked, but it's not the stuff that they want to remember, it's life experiences that anyone of any  level of affluence can have.
Ken Added Sep 13, 2018 - 11:12am
This is, I think, part of a general weakening of community spirit.   We have become too focused on the individual.
 
I would clarify this.  It isn't because we are too focused on the individual, It is because we have become too self-centered.  WE are the first responders, not the police, firemen, etc.Before progressivism took root and the government kept saying "depend on me, I'll save you", neighbors and communities always helped each other.  This is still very true in rural communities.  The more people get their "stuff" from the government, the less connection they tend to have with each other.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Sep 13, 2018 - 12:09pm
I spent part of my summers in Oakland, a place that was decent at the time, but had areas with turf wars that precluded me from visiting. 
 
It is now a compleat toilet. 
 
Thank the liberals 
Robin the red breasted songster Added Sep 13, 2018 - 12:13pm
Are the liberals in charge of the US Government then Ryck.   I got it wrong... thought it was a bloke called Trump
Robin the red breasted songster Added Sep 13, 2018 - 12:16pm
Ken:  There is, among some people, the tendency to think that "they" should sort it out and that it has nothing to do with "me".
 
I think that everyone needs educating to take the initiative in keeping the community in good shape.
 
However that might be easier to do in England than in the USA.   I often tell people off for dropping litter etc.   Often I get a mouthful of abuse in reply.   But I like to think that it will make that person think twice next time.   But, of course, in America that person might be carrying a gun... so.... perhaps not.
Carole McKee Added Sep 13, 2018 - 12:28pm
Logical man: You can be officially poor yet live a rich and happy life. I agree. I recently moved to Ecuador, but before I left, I practically gave all my possessions away. I lived in a mobile home, which I sold for $300. I gave away expensive kitchen appliances, furniture, and just about everything one accumulates while living in a commercial and capital world. The oly item I sold for any aount of money was my car; but hey, I had to get here, didn't i? 
 
In the States, I was constantly ordering items online, but here, we get no deliveries, so I can't order anything. I have my clothes, my computer, and two cats, and I am learning Spanish. I have made friends here, and I always have a smile on my face. I am happy.
 
How do I pay my way? I get a Social Security check and I am still writing books. In the States I couldn't afford to spend money on book promotions and advertising. Here, I can. So life is good. And I don''t miss mexpensive things; I have more things of value right now. Health, happiness, peace, peace of mind, tranquility.
Ken Added Sep 13, 2018 - 12:28pm
Are the liberals in charge of the US Government then Ryck.   I got it wrong... thought it was a bloke called Trump
 
When the leviathan is as massive as it is now and took 100 years to get where it is, you can't t urn it around in a year - and sadly, one of the things never discussed by Trump was actually reducing the size and scope of it
 
I think that everyone needs educating to take the initiative in keeping the community in good shape.
 
This is the problem with our government indoctrination mills (public schools) They aren't teaching self-reliance, they are teaching government dependence
 
that might be easier to do in England than in the USA.
 
It shouldn't be.  It is built into our DNA through our founding.  We just have to remember who we are.
 
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Sep 13, 2018 - 12:56pm
Robin
 
"Are the liberals in charge of the US Government then Ryck.   I got it wrong... thought it was a bloke called Trump"
 
Oakland was a dump way before Trump. It became worse during Obozo. 
Robin the red breasted songster Added Sep 13, 2018 - 1:01pm
Ken:   I meant that in the USA it is much more dangerous to intervene when someone is doing something wrong because so many people have guns there...  That is why it is easier to do things in England.
 
I don't think it is self reliance being taught that is the answer (although it is a laudable virtue).  I think it is more a case of teaching that it is up to the community and that everyone owes respect, time and, maybe, money in return.
 
We can't, for example, expect a police force, fire service or health service unless it is provided for by the community.   OK I know that in the US the health provision is done by a market based model... but if it is provided by the community...then it tends to be a kinder and more human service than if the patient is simply a business unit to be exploited.
 
You can't always just blame the "Government".   We elected them.   If we don't like what they are doing, then we should agitate for change and vote the buggers out.   But that does not mean that we don't still owe loyalty to our community/ our nation/ Government.  We cannot just pass the buck onto "the Government" no matter how comforting we find it to abdicate responsibility.
 
The moment that someone owes loyalty only to themselves, then things start to break down.
 
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Sep 14, 2018 - 9:46pm
But that does not mean that we don't still owe loyalty to our community/ our nation/ Government
 
Don't forget your monarch and your God, ohhh, and your kindergarten teacher too. 
 
Tamara Wilhite Added Sep 16, 2018 - 10:16am
I'd like to say that poverty is not a cause of crime, but low social trust and high crime DOES drive away opportunity and create more crime.
 
Dr. Thomas Sowell has written extensively about how poor black neighborhoods facing true systematic oppression in the 1930s-1950s had far lower crime rates than they do today. Teachers weren't afraid of being accosted by black students. What happened in between then and now? Welfare broke down the black family, primarily, while thugs and the very unusual black athlete were held up as role models for kids.
 
End result - lots of people tolerating crime, lots of kids who have no issue with petty theft or assault as a way to prove they're bonafides, and millions of kids trying to be athletes or musicians instead of learning skills in school that could get them a job and on the road to a working class / middle class life.
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 16, 2018 - 12:00pm
Robin RBS, your drinking the Cool Aid of socialist <<US the health provision is done by a market based model... but if it is provided by the community...then it tends to be a kinder and more human service than if the patient is simply a business unit to be exploited.>>  
 
It is a myth that America has a market based health care system.  In a market system the customer knows the price of goods and services.  As an American Doctor or hospital to give you a price so you can choose.  Will not get one.    The cost and price is determined by third party, the insurance company negotiating with someone else's money with the providers.  So the bargain reached is an amount that the insurance believe the customer will pay, and it will be the highest value since they get a cut of the amount.   
 
Now Robin tell me this is a market place you would shop in?  I think not.
 
National health care is provided by the community.  The VA is the US is such a system.  A VA inspector general report finds out of ~800000 records stalled in the agency's system for managing health care , there were more then 30700 veterans who had died months or years in the past.   "People who fought, and who earned the right to VA health car, were never given VA health care.  They literally died while waiting for VA to process their health car application." Davis said.   This a put on the CNN web page 2015/09/02.     So Robin where is the  kinder and more human service ?  
 
America is not unique if a national health care system failing to be  kinder and more human service   Ask the parents of Alfie Evens  & Charlie Gard  in England how the National health care system treated them?  https://revelationstwelve.wordpress.com/2017/08/03/another-charlie-gard-uk-family-fights-to-keep-sick-baby-alive/
 
"The Fraser Institute says that in 2015, Canadians waited an average of 18.3 weeks to see a specialist, "slightly longer than the 18.2 week wait reported in 2014" and "97% longer than in 1993, when it was just 9.3 weeks." . . . The victim list is actually much longer, as "another 121 never had the surgery because they became too sick to survive it before their turn came up." "   http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/canada-wait-times-deadly-and-take-longer-than-ever/
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 16, 2018 - 12:08pm
The Catio Institute publication # 613 March 18, 2008 is interesting read.  Dozens of citations listed in the ~ 37 pages excluding the list.  Title: The Grass Is Not Always Greener    A Look at National Health Care Systems Around the World
Tamara Wilhite Added Sep 16, 2018 - 5:35pm
 

Thomas Sutrina Good references.
Logical Man Added Sep 16, 2018 - 6:27pm
A good friend of mine moved to the US from Canada about 10 years ago and has direct experience of both medical systems.
A guy I know in UK who lived in US for 15 years, likewise.
Both think the US system sucks by comparison with both UK and Canada.
Neither the Brit system nor that of Canada is perfect but both meet the needs of most people. Medical care should not, I believe, be more about profit than health. It appears those in control of the American system seem to disagree.
Koshersalaami Added Sep 16, 2018 - 6:47pm
Why would government want to encourage dependence? It would just cost them more money. 
 
The first thing we have to do if we want poor neighborhoods to improve is to improve schools there. Most school funding is still local and poor neighborhoods don’t have the tax base to do well by their kids. Without that, kids don’t qualify for decent paying jobs to for secondary education that leads to decent paying jobs. When there aren’t decent paying legal jobs available - and there are fewer and fewer as major box retailers like WalMart replace full time jobs with part time jobs without benefits - but one can make a living in illegal occupations, that’s what people gravitate to out of necessity. Then you get associated crime, a large part of the male population in prison, and a whole lot of people getting very cynical about available opportunities. 
 
Bootstrap theory is very convenient to people with money. As I’ll say often, if you want to fix something like bad neighborhoods, it takes two kinds of responsibility: individual and collective. Neither works alone. The Left leans too much on collective. The Right leans too much on individual. And the Right’s idea of collective in a case like this is collective that doesn’t involve them. If you want a country that works, you have to deal with the problems your country has, and not by being so facile as to blame the poor for being poor. 
 
Nor by playing whichever side of the coin is convenient. On one hand, bitch about how many kids there are without fathers. On the other hand, bitch about the abortions that reduce the potential number of kids without fathers you’re already bitching about. In the meantime, knowledge about birth control that prevents unwanted pregnancies in the form of sex education - which in turn reduces the number of abortions - isn’t supported by the Right either. No solutions, blame those with problems for not having solutions available that you oppose to begin with. 
 
You don’t know how you’d react being brought up in their circumstances. It’s OK that you don’t, but you’re not asking that question honestly. You’re expecting people to act like they’ve grown up with the support of your upbringing when they haven’t. 
 
I’m not saying they bear no responsibility. When they get arrested, they do time, regardless of who they can blame for their upbringing - in fact, if they’re Black, they do disproportionately more time because Black people tend to get longer sentences, all other things being equal (Blacks and Whites accused of similar crimes with similar criminal records get very different sentences on average). 
 
Blaming the victim is too easy. 
Jeff Michka Added Sep 16, 2018 - 7:32pm
But KS, this is WB and rightists on WB must always blame victims, because there's no other explanation other than the Marxist/Leninist/Maoist/Stalinist "victim mentality" that must be maintained so poor people will always vote D  No, of course not, they should vote T and against their own interests.  TY for bringing up the revolving door of black imprisonment that benefits the for-profit prison system.  IN/OUT and arrested back in again with a mandatory sentence.  It's not justice, it's a profit system. 
Logical Man Added Sep 16, 2018 - 7:47pm
Right/Left is just divide and conquer.
People need to concentrate on Right/Wrong instead.
Carole McKee Added Sep 16, 2018 - 8:16pm
Logical Man: People need to concentrate on Right/Wrong instead. Exactly what I say all the time.
 







 











 




 
Koshersalaami Added Sep 16, 2018 - 11:25pm
Jeff,
I’m new enough here that I’m not yet ready to dismiss the tendency to blame victims without talking about how and why that is. I don’t come from the “Jane You Ignorant Slut” school of argumentation. I’d rather talk about how mechanisms work, about why I’m making a particular claim. 
 
My first (and so far only) post here has been about race but when I start talking about economics I’m going to throw a few curves and perhaps a few more when I start talking about religion. These guys are used to dealing with liberal atheists who view capitalism negatively, but I’m a religiously involved liberal in business who often defends liberalism based on it being better for business, which is not a case anyone here is likely to have seen before (except for my friend Steel Breeze). They’re used to liberals who dismiss all their values as illegitimate. I won’t do that. They’re used to having their patriotism dismissed as chauvinism while I won’t dismiss patriotism at all; I’ll just have a different take on what is patriotic and why, and there is a respect in which I can make a case for American exceptionalism. They’re used to people who talk about the immorality of the polarization of income and wealth (which I will do to a certain extent), but not to people who view it as America’s greatest business problem. 
 
None of which makes me a centrist. I’m not one. I believe in liberal policies but not always for typically liberal reasons. Anyway, the upshot is that I’m not yet prepared to simply be oppositional. 
Robin the red breasted songster Added Sep 17, 2018 - 6:00am
Thomas:  I never said that the NHS was perfect, just that, overall it costs half as much as the US system and delivers longer life spans for the citizens of our country.
 
It is impossible to have a perfect system.  Medicine is effectively a bottomless pit and will absorb all of the money that you can throw at it from whatever source.  Rationing is inevitable whether done by whether you can afford to pay or not or by some system policies.   Often it makes more sense (in terms of maximising life span and quality of life) to spend most cash on preventative medicine rather than high cost surgery etc.
 
For your information, there is nothing to stop any UK citizen paying for additional medical services if they want them and can afford to pay.   And usually we pay less for private medicine than do American citizens because the NHS provides such a powerful competitor to the free market.   Why would you pay thousands of pounds to see the same surgeons as you would get in an NHS hospital when the only real difference is a slightly shorter wait and a private room?
Steel Breeze Added Sep 17, 2018 - 8:24am
Kosh,lookin forward to your economics post.....there's some 'experts' here you're gonna have fun with....
Rusty Smith Added Sep 17, 2018 - 9:01am
Koshersalaami oppressive governments can use dependency to their benefit in many ways.  
 
In Medieval  Europe the governing class owned the land and denied the people the right to own arms necessary to defend themselves.  They wanted the people dependent upon them so they could tax them safely.
 
In the US most Democratic votes come from poorer communities who depend largely on government subsidies for many of the things they want.  Democrats politicians are in a good position to give them more free stuff and often do to buy the votes they need to stay in office.  
 
In the US I think a lot of that might get better if politicians benefits and retirement packages were the same as those they govern.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 17, 2018 - 9:13am
Logical Man I don't think most people see the downside of socialized medicine like they have in Canada until they get older and start having experince with things like Cancer and heart disease.  Their medical systems do well with the common types of inexpensive stuff most people deal with when they are young.
 
However if you need something like an MRI to diagnose a dangerous condition, in places like Canada you get on a long waiting list and can be dead before you get to the front of the line.  That happened to me about 6  years ago.
 
I had a life threatening problem that only displayed minor symptoms, I walked into the hospital and was diagnosed with severe indigestion, but just to be safe they gave me an MRI which showed my appendix had burst.  If I'd been in Canada I'd have just died at home waiting for my MRI appointment.
 
We see lots and lots of older Canadians pay out of pocket to get quick diagnosis here for things like cancer, and heart disease here in the US because the wait is so long in Canada.  
 
 
Koshersalaami Added Sep 17, 2018 - 9:18am
Rusty,
It isn’t just the subsidies that are driving the vote. One party is in general acknowledging that there is still seriously unequal treatment of races to the point where that issue should be addressed in policy while the other party is generally denying that inequality of treatment. After all, there are millions of Black middle class voters who aren’t seeing the subsidies you’re talking about but still vote Democratic. If you can watch a President talking about how there were good people marching through Charlottesville wearing swastikas and carrying torches - or to treat the Black Lives Matter movement like it doesn’t have a legitimate grievance - and not figure out why Blacks vote overwhelmingly for the other party, you’re not paying close enough attention. 
Rusty Smith Added Sep 17, 2018 - 10:43am
Tamara Wilhite you got one thing real right, too many kids are encouraged to pursue their passion instead of being steered towards an education that is likely result in good employment.
 
My advice to the young is to get a good education in a solid subject like accounting, or engineering, and make things like sports, art, dancing or acting their hobby.  
 
If one day their hobby turns into a lucrative career that's great and something that's easy to live with.  If they do it the other way and don't have a solid education to fall back on, they are left with none of the tools it takes to earn a decent living.
 
In many poor neighborhoods thats a huge problem.  Half the kids spend all their time and effort pursuing career paths like football and entertainment, which can be very lucrative, but statistically are almost always devastatingly unwise choices for most of them.
Robin the red breasted songster Added Sep 17, 2018 - 10:53am
Yes Rusty, the rather boring truth for most kids is that you need to be able to earn a living... and in order to do that... you may have to do things that are not "your passion".
 
So I would suggest that educators take on board teaching kids stuff like trades (plumbing, electrics etc etc), gardening, care of the sick and elderly etc etc... because these are much more likely to lead to a good job than art or media studies.
 
However, having said that, I do think that there is more to education than simply equipping kids to get a job.  Ideally we should be teaching them how to have a good life (as described by Plato and others) and to be good citizens (the balance between rights and responsibilities).    They should also be taught about how various other cultures see the world... comparative religion etc so that they are not narrow minded.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 17, 2018 - 10:59am
Koshersalaami half the current racism is created and fed by our own attempts to regulate racism out of existence.  Doing so unfairly denies non blacks opportunities they have earned, and makes non black people afraid of blacks because some of the more unscrupulous ones throw down the race card all the time.  Other blacks who hate white people constantly accuse them of being racists, and of having white privilege, which causes even more resentment.  If blacks want to be treated like everyone else, they need to start behaving like everyone else, and drop all their own racist behaviors.
 
By the way Trump didn't say the white supremacists in Charlottesville were nice or decent people, he said the violence was caused by bad behavior on both sides and he was right.  The supremacists and a whole lot of the protesters both showed up for a fight and that's why the violence was so bad.  Here is the Trump quote:
 
“You had a group on one side that was bad. You had a group on the other side that was also very violent. Nobody wants to say that. I’ll say it right now.”
Koshersalaami Added Sep 17, 2018 - 11:08am
Trump also made a reference to “some very fine people on both sides.” More than one quote, so yes, he did say there were nice/decent White supremacists. 
 
The problem I have with the grievance of denying non Black people opportunities they have earned is that the people who express that grievance don’t ever seem to be people who complained about Black people being denied opportunities they’ve earned, a much larger population. Complaining about reverse discrimination without ever having really opposed actual discrimination is not about egalitarianism, it’s about turf.  If you’re going to be an egalitarian, don’t pretend to be one, actually be one.
 
 
Robin the red breasted songster Added Sep 17, 2018 - 11:27am
What Trump should have done is to state clearly that the behaviour of white supremacists, and their ideology would not be tolerated on his watch.  He should then have gone on to say that equality for all races is a keystone of  America's value system.
 
Having made that crystal clear, he could then have gone on to say that we will also not tolerate violent behaviour from anyone... no matter what cause they espouse.
 
The way he did it made it seem that he really wanted to support the racists (perhaps he did) but did not feel that he could yet get away with doing so completely openly.  In any case, it seems that many with racist dispositions have come to the conclusion that he is on their side.
 
Hitler, of course, never actually told anyone to attack the Jews in Germany.   He allowed his followers to develop a belief of what behaviour would allow them to "work towards the Fuhrer" and did nothing to stop them attacking Jews.  He probably also reasoned that if he openly encouraged attacks on Jews he would lose support from a wide swathe of public opinion that liked him because he seemed to be boosting the economy (no-one realised that his economic policies would be unsustainable without plunder from conquered countries).  He was very skilled in his oratory... I think that Trump is equally skilled.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 17, 2018 - 11:54am
Robin the red breasted songster Trump is on the record for despising the White Supremacists and all that they stand for which might make more sense to you than suggesting he likes some of them, if you knew more about him and his personal life.  
 
White Supremacists don't approve of Jews and Trump's extended family and many of his companies upper management are full of Jews.  Several of his own children are married to or have dated Jews. 
 
Believe me he's no fan of the White Supremacists and he's hardly on their Christmas list either.  
 
He might have gotten a lot of their votes for President but that's not because they like each other, it's more likely because they hated Hillary more than they hated him.
 
White Supremacists are a tiny tiny little splinter group made up of misfits who can only dream about the good old days when they had power and influence.  These days the vast majority of the public considers them to be backwards thinking Nazi wannabes who have no power and spend all their time trying to offend most of the public.  That's the only thing they do well. 
 
They get lots of news coverage when they hold public rallies and I think we'd all be better off if we completely ignored their rallies.  If no one showed up they would end up talking to themselves, no one would care, and there would not be anyone to fight with.
Koshersalaami Added Sep 17, 2018 - 1:06pm
Steve Bannon was awfully key in his administration for that. And the content of some of his anti-Hillary ads was lifted from antisemitic websites. 
Robin the red breasted songster Added Sep 17, 2018 - 1:11pm
Rusty:  Here we had a bunch of white supremacists calling themselves the EDL who called a "rally" outside a mosque in Bull Lane in York.   There was only a small number that went along in the end.
 
They started chanting etc outside.   Then some of the guys inside the mosque came out to meet them with mugs of tea and a plate of biscuits.   Some of them ended up having a game of football together.
 
Funnily enough, this event never made it into the pages of the Daily Mail...
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Sep 17, 2018 - 2:34pm
Funny about  political bias!
Carole McKee Added Sep 17, 2018 - 3:31pm
If trump despises white supremacists hen he must be terrified of them. Because he sure didn't stand up to them or denounce their actions when he shoud have.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Sep 17, 2018 - 4:05pm
He condemned both sides, an action that inflamed the far left .
Koshersalaami Added Sep 17, 2018 - 4:08pm
And you don’t think there was any provocation? And you think that the fact that someone was killed (deliberately) on one side somehow equals out? 
Carole McKee Added Sep 17, 2018 - 4:22pm
Ryck the JFK Democrat: Condemning both sides would be equal to blaming the Jews for Hitler's actions.
 
Koshersalaami: It certainly does not. nd I might add that all through history, never has any white supremacist group ever included "very fine people."
Koshersalaami Added Sep 17, 2018 - 6:21pm
Ever. Agreed. 
Rusty Smith Added Sep 17, 2018 - 7:47pm
Carole McKee when either side shows up with weapons and uses them, I say they, they didn't go there to protest they wanted to fight.  I don't excuse that type of behavior even if I dislike the people they wanted to beat up.
 
Do you?
 
Do you think it was ok for people who disliked the White Supremacists to go there for the purpose of beating them up?
 
Blaming both sides is not like blaming the Jews.  The Jews didn't show up looking for a fight, they were herded into kill boxes like animals for slaughter...  They didn't fight back at all... Very bad example, no parallel.
Logical Man Added Sep 17, 2018 - 10:36pm
Rusty, here is a personal experience of the Canadian system.
Riding trails on my mountain bike I misjudged a jump and flew over the bars landing with a rock in my lower left ribs. I was about 10km from home - managed to make it and got a friend to drive me to the hospital. Lucky to be still drawing breath, apparently. I was X-rayed within an hour and had a CAT scan less than an hour later. 3 broken ribs and damage to liver and spleen, but fortunately not too much. I had to catch a cab home and stop by the 24 hour pharmacy for pain meds. The taxi was the most expensive part of the deal.
Sounds awful, doesn't it?
Carole McKee Added Sep 17, 2018 - 10:39pm
No, I don't. I abhor violence of any kind. The whole country is getting out of control. I know you may disagree with me but I believe trumplethinskin is the blame for it.
 
I know the media blows up everything he says and does, but I don't listen to the media that much. I listen to what Mr. Thinskin says and I watch his body language. I also read his tweets. He instigates a lot of the  violence that is happening, just by his veiled remarks. And the way he "hovers" over news stories is so much like a kid who knows he did soething wrong and is afraid to et caught, so he stands around trying to deflect the evidence in another direction.
 
Robin the red breasted songster Added Sep 18, 2018 - 3:04am
On patriotism:   I know that Trumpy tries to wrap himself in the flag.  However mostly it is a rabble rousing sort of patriotism with no substance.  Why should American's be patriotic?   What is it about the country that should make them so?
 
I am a patriotic Englishman.  But I know why I am patriotic:   The NHS, Right to Roam, the National Trust, our songs and tunes, a century and a half of struggle to improve the lot of the common man, the everyday kindness of most people and.... BBC radio 4... plus other things too numerous to mention here.
 
Perhaps Trumpy would do better if he was appeal to those things that unite Americans rather than those which divide … whatever those things are...
Steel Breeze Added Sep 18, 2018 - 9:18am
i honestly dont understand the fascination other countries have with our politics...i give a rats ass how their system works, or who they choose, yet they are hung up on what we do......jealousy?.....feel threatened?....what?
Rusty Smith Added Sep 18, 2018 - 10:45am
Logical Man as I previously said, their system seems to work well for routine health care while you're young and for accidents, but it falls short for things like heart disease and cancer.  The people who really take it in the shorts in Canada are the elderly, who often fly to the US so they can be diagnosed and treated faster.
 
If you're not bleeding wait times in Canada can be very bad news.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 18, 2018 - 10:52am
Carole McKee i don't follow his tweets I follow business news, the stock market, the economy and foreign affairs, but I do hear a lot about his outrageous tweets.
 
Just as a personal opinion I think the average person should care much more about Trump's effect on things like our economy and employment than the rambling muttering he does via his posts.
 
I'm that way in real life too, I don't care how sweet some is to my face, I look at what they do and if what they do is consistently bad for me I don't care if they are a sweet talker.  Conversely what they do always seems to work out well, I gladly overlook what they say.  I'm sure you've heard, "all bark no bite".  Perhaps Trump just likes to grumble a lot.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 18, 2018 - 10:55am
Robin the red breasted songster I know you can't tell by reading the news but Trump does seem to be improving his appeal to segments of the US that previously never considered liking a Republican.
 
He's done that by improving the economy and increasing employment, even among minorities.  When people have money they tend to get along better.
Carole McKee Added Sep 18, 2018 - 12:08pm
Rusty: The stock market does not tell the story. Company CEO's have been buying back their stocks, pushing the price of them up higher. That makes the economy look better but in reality, look at average middle America and under. those people are not doing well. When stock prices go up, so does the cost of products, making it hard for a lot of people to survive.
 
Before I came to Ecuador, I volunteered at the food bank. The number of people who went there for food almost doubled from December, 2016 to December, 2017. I did the intake there. It's not like anyone can come and get free food. They have to qualify by having low income and in some cases high expenses, like medical expenses. Yes, there were Hispanics coming there, but there were quite a few Caucasians coming through. Many of them told me they were desperate. One Hispanic family told me they were born in the U.S. as were their three kids, and her husband was let go right before Christmas. There was no reason for it, except that he was Hispanic. She had letters of praise from his company over the years and he suddenly wasn't good enough to work there. 
 
The thing is, trump followers "accuse" some of us of believing the media; but I experienced people's problems first-hand.
 
So yes, the stock market looks good, and the economy appears to be better, but only the wealthier people are benefitting. The country is for everybody, not just the wealthy. There has to be a better medium reached.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 18, 2018 - 12:25pm
Carole McKee no one thing tells the whole story, the economy is complicated and does have many legs but overall it's doing pretty well.
 
Companies buy back stock when things are going well and when they anticipate there stock will appreciate faster than other investments they can make with the same money.   Cash strapped businesses don't buy anything and especially their own stock if they think tough times are ahead.
 
I would disagree about only the wealthy are better off, employment among minorities has risen to an all time high, making them far better off now than they were before Trump was elected.
 
Wealthy people like Trump can't make money if business isn't good, and when business do well they hire lots of people including plenty who will never be rich business owners.  Those in turn have more money to spend on everything from restaurants to cars, and all that extra activity also adds to the booming economy.
 
That's one of the things I think works well with Trump more than most career politicians, it's in his personal interest to do things that are good for businesses, and booming businesses hire more people.  Even if he does what he does for greedy personal reasons, we the people end up better off as a result.
Carole McKee Added Sep 18, 2018 - 12:43pm
Rusty: employment among minorities has risen to an all time high Okay, at what pay rate? It's one thing to ha ve a job and a totally different thing to ha ve a job that supports you and your family. Wages are not going up as fast as prices do. 
 
when business do well they hire lots of people They hire, and then lay off. They don't pass out raises like "trickle-down" believers think. They keep as much of their profits as they can. 
 
I am not an economics major, so you probably know more about that subject than I do. But most of my degrees have to do with people's needs--and I can tell you, they are not doing well. 
 
What I do know is trump has bankrupted at least 6 or 7 of his companies. That doesn't sound like a good businessman From what I have witnessed from his behavior, I would believe that all of his bankruptcies are with companies he himself took charge of. The successful ones were started by his father and managed by professionals. I'm sorry, I believe him to be a liar, a phony, and low IQed.
 
 
 
 
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 18, 2018 - 1:58pm
Carole, you need an answer to the question asked, <<Rusty: employment among minorities has risen to an all time high Okay, at what pay rate? It's one thing to have a job and a totally different thing to have a job that supports you and your family. Wages are not going up as fast as prices do. >>
 
Dr. Walter Williams is an economist and black that has studied this area for years.  He is the expert we at WB are not.  He tells us, "Black youth unemployment in some cities is over 50%. But high black youth unemployment is also new.  In 1948, the unemployment rate for black teens was slightly less than that of their white counterparts 9.4% compared with 10.2%. During that same period, black youths were either just as active in the labor force or more so than white youths. Since the 1960s, both the labor force participation rate and the employment rate of black youths have fallen to what they are today. Why?
 
Are employers more racially discriminatory today than yesteryear? Were black youths of yesteryear more skilled than whites of yesteryear? The answer to both questions is a big fat no.
 

The minimum wage law and other labor regulations have cut off the bottom rungs of the economic ladder. Put yourself in the place of an employer, and ask: If I must pay $7.25 an hour plus mandated fringes, such as Social Security and workers' compensation would
it pay me to hire a worker who is so unfortunate as to possess skills that enable him to produce only $5 worth of value per hour? Most employers view that as a losing economic proposition.
 
Thus, the minimum wage law discriminates against the employment of low skilled workers, who are most often youths particularly black youths.

The little bit of money a teenager can earn through afterschool,
weekend and summer employment is not nearly so important as the other things he gains from early work experiences." 
http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2015/05/20/thetrueblacktragedyn2000459/
 
Carole, my first job was as a youth for a low wage.  I do not remember how much because it didn't matter.  I was in high school and live at home.  No family to support.  I was one of the white teenagers of this article.  The black teenagers were in the same situation.   We learned skills that put us above the minimum wage levels.  I considered the mindlessness of some of my summer jobs was motivation to get more skills.   
 
To make this point "Black older workers did just fine. It was the young and ablest workers who lost out and the question is, why? . . . Murray told Investor’s Business Daily that there is a connection between young black male unemployment and single-parent households. . . . "The troubling reality," Murray writes, "is that a large proportion of young black males of prime working age are not even available for work." . . . he says, the loss of families to the pull of welfare has led to a marginalization of the men who had headed those families."   http://fumento.com/economy/greatsociety.html
 
Work to support a family has been marginalized so why would a young man take a job support a family that is already being supported by welfare?  By the time he asks himself what he has done with his life a decade has passed and his children do not know him.   That is why the Eulogist at Aretha Franklin’s funeral, the Rev. Jasper Williams Jr. declared that as "proud, beautiful and fine as our black women are, one thing a black woman cannot do — a black woman cannot raise a black boy to be a man."  Carole a man take responsibility that is why he is called the head of the household. 
Robin the red breasted songster Added Sep 18, 2018 - 2:03pm
Thomas:  Your answer here does not address the question you posed:  Why are black youth differentially less employed?
Robin the red breasted songster Added Sep 18, 2018 - 2:10pm
Minimum wage legislation is a sensible move for Government.  It creates a level playing field...the competitive environment is not affected.   For most jobs, the labour component is relatively small so most consumers do not notice the difference in price (if any... in some cases it has been noted that workers given a decent wage are more productive that those earning too little to feed their families).  And Government, and therefore the taxpayer, gains because the call on welfare is reduce.  The extra money is pretty much fed directly back into the economy because the poorer citizen needs it to pay for basics (unlike tax cuts to the already wealthy where the money simply disappears into offshore funds).  So it's win, win.
 
Of course this approach is still vulnerable to competition from automation or offshoring.  But for many low wage jobs (cleaning, baristas, bar staff etc etc) these are not real competitors.
Robin the red breasted songster Added Sep 18, 2018 - 2:11pm
You can also replace welfare payments with guaranteed work places.   These cost the tax payer but can be used for stuff that really needs doing such as caring for the elderly or cleaning up the environment.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Sep 18, 2018 - 2:22pm
Robin
 
"You can also replace welfare payments with guaranteed work places."
 
Doing what kind of work? Make work?
 
"Minimum wage legislation is a sensible move for Government.  It creates a level playing field.."
 
Not even. Wages are market driven. Look at what happened in Seattle and tell us why!
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 18, 2018 - 2:24pm
Carole the American public knew Trumps track record of bankrupt businesses.  So tell me what is the back ground for a president?    Obama didn't run a business.  Guess running a business is not a requirement.  Obama didn't succeed in everyone of the things he set out to do.  So always succeeding is not a requirement.   Clinton had sexual relationships while married.  Take that off the list.  
 
Seems the list of requirements is short.  I find only one on the list.  Able to present a vision of the future of America and convince all types of people to vote for them.    Obama and Trump succeeded in having that skill.  Hillary Clinton was not as good at it.   Getting re-elected only adds the ability to make what you accomplished important to voters.   So far in modern times Reagan is the only president (W. B. Bush actually accomplished the same thing but drop by even one would have unseated him) to have more electoral votes the second time around.   
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 18, 2018 - 2:35pm
Robin I did provide some of the information to a slightly different question  of Rusty that Carole picked.  You have a fair question.
 
"Using 2011 population data from the U.S. Census Bureau, 2011 crime statistics from the FBI and information from 17,000 local law enforcement agencies in the country, it came up with a report titled "Top 25 Most Dangerous Neighborhoods in America." (http://tinyurl.com/cdqrev4) They include neighborhoods in Detroit, Chicago, Houston, St. Louis and other major cities. What's common to all 25 neighborhoods is that their makeup is described as "Black" or "Mostly Black." The high crime rates have several outcomes that are not in the best interests of the overwhelmingly law-abiding people in these neighborhoods. There can't be much economic development. Property has a lower value, but worst of all, people can't live with the kind of personal security that most Americans enjoy."  http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2013/07/31/black-selfsabotage-n1651550
 
Robin the black teenager faces few jobs since businesses have left and those that remain have higher cost dealing with crime.  Their employees have to be of higher value to make having them so a teenager with no skills and not fully developed thinking is a higher risk to a business that has little margin for errors.    The data pointed out that fewer are willing to work, availability.  I presented that information on the lack of male role models and that mothers are less effective role models for boys.  The head of households that go out to earn money for the family what are typically men are not present when welfare fills that function.   Why would a teenager take a job when he can not see a reason.   Teenages' do not think a decade down the road so the lack of role models means he will not grasp what he will be missing by not being a parent.   
Carole McKee Added Sep 18, 2018 - 3:44pm
Okay, Thomas: That's the way to go. Point fingers at everyone else and that makes trump look better. Okay, Clinton had affairs. Obama didn't run a business. Your point? 
 
Trump brags about how great he is. So okay, Clinton and Obama didn't do that. So, bragging ability--1 point for trump, 0 for Obama and Clinton.
 
All politicians lie. Every. One. Of them. But the blatant lies about stupid things that don't matter as well as the big things that do, is what infuriates me. Anyone who has ever studied body language can see that he prevaricates about everything. 
 
And no, it is not a requirement that a president run a business before he's elected. Nor is it a requirement that a president be in the military, but it should be. Seriously? How can anyone be comander-in-chief of a great military and know nothing about it? (Oh right...trump knows more about ISIS than the generals do.)
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Sep 18, 2018 - 4:16pm
Thomas Sutrina
 
""Top 25 Most Dangerous Neighborhoods in America." (http://tinyurl.com/cdqrev4) They include neighborhoods in Detroit, Chicago, Houston, St. Louis and other major cities. What's common to all 25 neighborhoods is that their makeup is described as "Black" or "Mostly Black." The high crime rates have several outcomes that are not in the best interests of the overwhelmingly law-abiding people in these neighborhoods. "
 
You failed to mention that all or most of those dangerous neighborhoods are in inner cities controlled by left-liberals black Democrats. 
 
See any connection there?
 
Blacks want to control crime?? Really? How much money is made off drug sales in those places?
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Sep 18, 2018 - 4:26pm
Thomas Sutrina
 
"Carole the American public knew Trumps track record of bankrupt businesses. "
 
Bankruptcy is a way of business, for all businesses. It was instituted to avoid debtor prison and other maladies. Without that entrepreneurs would not risk their capital. 
 
4/5 businesses fail [bankruptcy!!]. That means the risk is high. Liabilities and freedom from creditors is a major risk. 
 
Research some corporations that built housing developments and when they went down. You will find that if there are significant  liabilities as the development approaches the final point of selling most  of their houses or lots they call it quits.
 
Also, stockholders have no liability as such. They cannot be arrested or fined for ownership. Officers and directors can if they break the law, if not, they are free to leave without further loses. 
Carole McKee Added Sep 18, 2018 - 5:37pm
Thomas: His business sense not really what I question. I worked for a man who had a successful business for 15 years and didn't know a damn thing about business. When I went to work for him I couldn't believe the mess his books were in, and how all the important things weren't in order. (Like paying quarterly taxes.) Now I wouldn't ever want to own a small business because I don't think I'd be good at it; but I know a little bit about how things work. 
 
But trump's business acumen isn't what I question. It's the lies, the bullying, the veiled threats he makes. His undertoned threats are so like organized criminals. 
 
Now Thomas, you bring up the inner cities and how Democrats are in charge of these crime-ridden cities. Do you really think it would be different if Republicans were in charge? It's not Democrats doing the crimes--it's the criminal residents. Don't you think bigger cities attract criminals, since there are generally more people there? I grew up in an area where the police were so bored because they had nothing to do, and our township was run by Democrats. I personally don't see how you can pin blame on a party for crimes committed. I don't think they are asked for party affiliation when they are arrested, and they don't ask for party affiliation when they commit a crme. In other words, I don't think the party has anything to do with it. I've seen cities go from Democrat to Republican and the crime rate didn't change. 
Rusty Smith Added Sep 18, 2018 - 6:20pm
Carole McKee you are probably correct, when the poor and chronically unemployed become employed it's probably at low wages, but that's where EVERYONE started, including me and my kids.  What did you think, the will all be hired as managers?
 
The huge difference is that they are transitioning between being leeches on other taxpayers, and fully supporting themselves.  
 
Where you see low wages I see a tremendous step in the right direction because people who wanted jobs now have them.
 
And you are probably right again about the potential for a layoff, if Trump's changes are reversed by the next President, business will probably not flourish like it is now, and they will be forced to lay lots of those new employees off.
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 18, 2018 - 6:30pm
Carole your letting your lower lip drop down.  The point is that the Democrats campaigned on the fact of Trump bankrupts.  The voters made a choice that you many disagree with but the decision was not because the facts were hidden.    Second the Constitution list the requirement to run for and become president and the method of how the decision will be determined.  You may want to add your requirements and others theirs but sorry the list can only be changed be an amendment to the Constitution. 
 
Put some lipstick on it. 
Rusty Smith Added Sep 18, 2018 - 6:34pm
Carole McKee I read your last post and the correlation between poverty and crime ridden cities and Democrats is impossible to miss and it's not as much about racial preferences as it is about political party styles.  The poor like free unearned entitlements, so they vote for Democrats who promise to give them to them every time.
 
Democrats have made themselves quite popular with the poor by promising them all sorts of free stuff, and Republicans are always less popular for wanting to make an environment that is conducive for the poor to work and better themselves.
 
Trump is a record changer and many poor minority communities have started to notice.  He did something no one else has done for a long time, visibly increased employment in minority communities and some of them are noticing.  His approval rating has risen to 36% in among African Americans.  (28%) of black Americans say young black Americans are better off now than they were in the closing year of Obama’s presidency (15%).  
Carole McKee Added Sep 18, 2018 - 6:52pm
Rusty: See, this is where people are so misinformed. Do you know that a lot of social services offices hav e panic buttons under their desks? Because when some people get turned down they get violent. Nobody just hands these people stuff for free. They have to qualify, have proof of need, and are required to prove it every year.
 
Are there some scamming the system? Yes. Absolutely. If they get caught, they pay the price. There are those who scam outside of the system. Trump? Trump University. Of course, in my opinion, anyone who fell for that deserves to lose their money. 
 
Where are you getting this information that people are better off? I don't know of one person who is making more money, yet prices have gone up. That's how you tell tings are improving. Take a look at the income in which a family can survive. If there are a majority of people struggling on less, then te people are not doing better. 
 
Here is something that fries me. Every time they talk about a goverment shut-down, they always talk about people on Social Security not getting their checks, ad those on unemployment. In both cases, workers have paid into bot programs. Why don't they decide that Congress won't get paid?
 
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 18, 2018 - 6:53pm
Carole I have quoted Dr Williams and I could quote many others that point to the causes of the destruction of the family structure in black families.  The message is clear from all of them Aid to Families of Dependent Children make is adventitious to not have a second parent.  That means a husband in a typical family.  Other welfare programs also are involved.   
 
AFDC started by legislation in 1935 which was the FDR administration with a Democratic controlled Congress, both houses  Also during those years the public housing agency created integrated neighborhoods.  Clearly stated in the legislation regulations.  The created the black ghetto with a large public housing project of welfare tenants, and funded the construction of the suburbs. (I have cited the article on WB).   
 
It is clear that the 1964 and 1965 last two civil rights bills would have failed without ~95% of the the minority GOP votes.  And it is clear that LBJ took control of welfare under the federal government umbrella when he expanded welfare, "The Great Society."  Again Congress was controlled by the Democrats, both houses.
 
These Carole are facts that you can not dispute.  And even the dullest reader will put some of the blame for the blood running in the Black FDR created Ghettos streets on the Democrat politicians.  All the crumbs lead directly to them. 
 
The shoulda woulda coulda  discussion can not be concluded because that was not the actual path.  So no data can exist.   So I can not answer this question.  Do you really think it would be different if Republicans were in charge?    I do know that once the ball was rolling they did very little to stop it.
Carole McKee Added Sep 18, 2018 - 7:14pm
Thomas: Yes, there are those. I knew a white family who had nine kids, and as each of them turned 18, they went down and applied for welfare. I thought that was appalling. Then I knew a black couple who collected welfare money and food stamps while she worked on getting a degree. He claimed to be a minister and held church services in his garage. He had an altar erected and some chairs for seating. That was his earnings. I was invited into their home and saw the most fantanstic stereo system, and entertainment center I have ever seen. There was a huge TV--a bigger one than I had ever seen. Now that ticked me off. They were not living in a ghetto either. They lived in a very nice quiet residential neighborhood. Yes, these things do anger me and they should be investigated and stopped. 
 
And have you ever visited public housing? Anybody who wants to live in them can just go ahead. I would never. It all comes down to pride. Pride has no color barrier. You are always going to find people who have none, But some people really do need the help. What about veterans? The disabled? I agree with you about those who take advantage. No, I can't imagine having kids as a single woman, but that's not the majority of the people on welfare. 
 
I'm not disputing what FDR did 80 years ago. I know what he did. But why is it that the big dispute, and the most hate Republicans have is helping those in need? Would you be angry if the governent handed out money to wealthy people every month? Would that be okay with you? 
 
See, I have never considered myself financially well-off but I know I'm well-off in other ways. I have always given to people who need it, and quite frankly, I can't understand people who don't.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 18, 2018 - 11:08pm
Carole McKee I don't think many people who subsist off social services are better off than if they work, I know that happens.  I've had two different types of collaborating evidence.
 
First I helped a very poor mother of 2 that I dated for several years get a job and get off social services.  I was there every step along the way and saw her cry many times after she was kicked off social service programs for making too much money and ended up worse off than she was when she didn't even try to work.  Fortunately I made plenty and even though she was very reluctant to accept monetary help from me, sometimes she had to.  Eventually she worked her way up to a legal sec and left that world behind, but not without a lot of setbacks from social assistance programs that punish people who work, lose benefits, lose a job and have to reapply.
 
Second is as an employer whose had many employees get angry and some quit because I gave them raises or promotions that would have cost them dearly in lost social benefits.  I've had employees quite and tell me it's not worth getting up early every day and working hard at a low wage when they can live just as well without working at all.
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 19, 2018 - 11:49am
Carole, your talking about welfare fraud.  Yes there is fraud in every government program since the cost is passed on to the citizens that have no choice.  So the bureaucrats do not care.  I was not talking about fraud and the people thinking that commit fraud.  
 
I do know that at first a person that moves into public housing have no choice, for the money they have public housing is better.   People over time do not see the problems.  Doesn't matter if you live in a mansion or a slum.  People learn to deal with the situation they are in, adoptable is why humans have taken over the planet.  Even fraud is adapting.
 
Carole outside of the healthcare and the promised fake retirement annuity that worked had to pay into but was a tax the next big welfare program is children and their parent.  So this is false <<No, I can't imagine having kids as a single woman, but that's not the majority of the people on welfare.>> If we remove Medicaid and CHIP (top on the list) Social Security and tax refunds next followed by food stamps (SNAP), TANF/AFDC, and foster care.    CHIP, SNAP,TANF/AFDC, and foster care all are related to the cost of the collapse of the family structure.
 "Prior to TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families),(AFDC) Aid to Families with Dependent Children was a major federal assistance program that was coming under heavy criticism. Some argued that such programs were ineffective, promoted dependency on the government, and encouraged behaviors detrimental to escaping from poverty.  Some people also argued that TANF is detrimental to its recipients because using these programs have a stigma attached to them, which makes the people that use them less likely to participate politically to defend this program, and thus the programs have been subsequently weakened. [ABSOLUTELY WHY WOULD SOMEONE THAT IS FORCED TO GET A JOB DEFEND THE PROGRAM THAT IS FORCING THEM] Beginning with President Ronald Reagan's administration and continuing through the first few years of the Clinton administration, growing dissatisfaction with AFDC, particularly the rise in welfare caseloads, led an increasing number of states to seek waivers from AFDC rules to allow states to more stringently enforce work requirements for welfare recipients."  Wikipedia (TANF and social programs)
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 19, 2018 - 11:53am
Carole I left out public housing which is a big cost.  I do believe that families with children get priority.  And those receiving other welfare will be also higher on the priority list.
Carole McKee Added Sep 19, 2018 - 12:28pm
Thomas: Welfare was only supposed to be temporary. It was never supposed to be a way of life. I believe some states have stricter laws than others, but I have seen where the program is abused. I think there should be a time limit put on the program. And actually, there is. But people find a way around that. When a single mother's child reaches two years old, (in some states) she must look for work and find a daycare for the child. Of course, she gets around it by getting pregnant again. I just think the time limit should be enforced. When the time is up, an extensive look at the situation should take place. 
 
Public housing? My aunt put my grandmother into public housing, then stole all her money and left town. True story. Anyway, we were just appalled when we went there. It was a highrise building in a bad neighborhood. The halls smelled with whatever anyone had cooked the day before, and urine. The noises throughout the building were frightening at times, and then sometimes funny. Scary-looking people lurked in the halls and outside the building. Granted, the rent was subsidized by the government, but the place was a nightmare.  My grandmother didn't get much Social Security, since the only job she ever had was before Social Security existed. She received a partial of my grandfather's SS. Well, needless to say, when her lease was up grandma went to live with my parents.
 
Now if people want to live like that, that's on them. But the government shouldn't have to take responsibility. 
 
Another thing that disturbs me is how some of these welfare recipients can afford the expensive clothes and shoes, and wear gold jewelry. When I had to have surgery, my short-term disability didn't cover the time I had to  be off. My rent was due, my utilities were due, and I sold every piece of gold I owned, which was an extensive collection, since I was a gold broker at one time. That's how I managed to pay my bills and cover what medical expenses weren't covered by insurance. A lot of people would have gone right down to Social Services and got on assistance.
 
Sometimes maybe you have to force-feed pride into people. Maybe that's what the government should learn. If somebody really, really needs help, people should step up, as should the government. But no able-bodied person should be allowed to collect checks for more than three to six months.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Sep 19, 2018 - 1:32pm
Carole
 
"But no able-bodied person should be allowed to collect checks for more than three to six months."
 
No liberal Democrat would say this. Welfare is payment for votes, a right, and a redistribution mechanism. 
Carole McKee Added Sep 19, 2018 - 3:33pm
rych the JFK Democrat: Nobody ever said I was a liberal Democrat. I totally believe that some people need help and should get it. But I also believe that there are people who are getting it and shouldn't. 
 
 Welfare is payment for votes Just as this might be true, so is a promise to take it away a payment for wealthy people and mega-companies for their cotributions. If you think one is wrong, so is the other. And I'm not sure everyone feels that they are entitled. The only way to be sure is to increase the number of available jobs and offer them to healthy Welfare recipients. If they refuse, then they should be put off of Welfare. There are other reasons besides laziness that people can't find work. Police records and convictions keep people unemployed. I wold like to see a company start-up that only hires the homeless, veterans, and Welfare recipients. It's a good check and balance system in itself. "You're healthy and don't want the job? No more checks for you."
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 19, 2018 - 3:53pm
Carole  You question about purchasing the black vote.  Consider this, "A viral quote circulating since the 1990s attributes the following statement to Lyndon Baines Johnson, the 36th President of the United States: “I’ll have those niggers voting Democratic for 200 years” "  The Great Society and taking credit for the 1964 civil right and 1965 voting rights bills.  The facts I have presented that The Democratic controlled congress would not have passed it. "Democrats again filibustered the 64 C.R.A (for 57 days) and a (much) larger percentage of Republicans than Democrats in both houses of Congress voted for it. In the House, 80 percent of the Republicans and 63 percent of the Democrats voted in favor. In the Senate, 82 percent of the Republicans and 69 percent of the Democrats voted for it."  Dixiecrat voted against these bills remained in congress for years the last dying in office 2010.  LBJ's past performance in congress is a good picture of what he thought, "From 1940 to 1960 Johnson voted with the South 78% on civil rights issues. Before 1957,  voted 100% against civil rights issues. He also voted against the C.R.A. of 1957 and 1960.
 
The reason for presenting the history of Roman Empires is to show that the price continuously rises if the goal is to have the mob on your side.
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 19, 2018 - 4:02pm
Carole you also brought up dependence on welfare, "Welfare was only supposed to be temporary. It was never supposed to be a way of life."  I think the comment from LBJ suggest that they were willing to purchase votes.  And they succeeded, "The concept of welfare dependency was also bolstered recently by a study by David Elwood of Harvard University. He found that of the 3.8 million families currently on AFDC, well over half will remain dependent for more than 10 years, many others for 15 years or longer.  
 
Studies also show a correlation between crime and broken homes. It isn’t so much the crime committed by the members of the
broken home itself, says Robert Sampson, a sociologist at the University of Chicago, as it is the impact of broken homes on the
community.

"A high threshold of single-parent families in a community means a low capacity for social control of kids," he said. A child is
"more likely to find peers in that community who are not supervised."

Sampson said the relationship between broken homes and crimes "is large and certainly larger than many of the other factors
that I looked at in the analysis."

Other research shows that not only is there a link between single-parent households and crime, but that the difference between
black and white crime rates may largely be explained by the difference between their single-parent household rates.

Jim Maddox of the Washington, D.C.-based Family Research Council, said men who come from such families don’t "have any
role models for what a responsible, good family man is. Masculinity then is defined by gangs rather than good family men in the
community."    http://fumento.com/economy/greatsociety.html
Carole McKee Added Sep 19, 2018 - 4:21pm
Thomas: The entire government needs to be revamped. Republicans and Democrats alike. I hear phrases like "battle ground" and "beating the opponent." It's not supposed to be war. Both sides have lost sight of why they are there. Winning votes is not supposed to be their priority--governing in a manner that is best for the people, as a whole, is supposed to be their priority. We need change, very badly.
 
I can't totally agree with the broken home theory. My husband and I divorced when my kids were six and five. My kids were honor roll students, played sports, earned money for themselves, and I always knew where they were. They both went to college and graduated. My son went on to get a Master's degree and graduated with high honors in high school, college, and the graduate program. They were mannerly and well-behaved. In fact, other parents always wanted their kids to hang out with mine. So it's not the  broken home as much as it is the attention paid to what is going on in and outside of the home. I worked, sometimes two and three jobs, but I kept control at home. That's what it takes. Women who are going out at night, or sitting around with friends, or inviting male friends into the house are not controlling what their kids do.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 19, 2018 - 4:50pm
rycK the JFK Democrat And Carole McKee I do resent it when I see able bodied people collecting tax funded subsidized that should be set aside for the people who really need them and can't work.  I have known a few people who couldn't and they end up with far less because there is so much abuse by people who choose not to work and feel entitled to free support.
 
I often get annoyed when I go into stores and see people using Snap, (food stamp program), buying loads of expensive soft drinks and junk food with Snap and then separately things like liquor and tobacco with cash.  Anyone who wastes money on things like name brand soft drinks and liquor doesn't need to be subsidized with my tax money.  If they learned how to cook vegetables, rice, beans, potatoes, pork and chicken, they could eat healthy for less than what it takes to pay for all that junk food.
Carole McKee Added Sep 19, 2018 - 5:54pm
Rusty: I'm 100% in agreement with you. It always annoyed me when I'd be buying the cheaper cuts of meat while watching SNAP recipients buying the best.  When I lived in Florida I admit I used to buy a lot of food, cook every Saturday, and pass out meals to people in my neighborhood. People I knew had nothing. But I did it because, well, that's me. I knew these people didn't try to get food stamps or any of the government programs offered. Many of them qualified, I'm sure. But I had more respect for them because they didn't go for it.
 
Buying liquor and tobacco products  while on government assistance is just despicable. 
 
Here is a story that really burned my ass:  One year I worked a lot as a contractor and received quite a few 1099's. Of course no taxes were taken out, so come April of the following year, I did my taxes and was sitting there writing out my check to the IRS, when my friend's daughter showed up in her car, bought for her by Welfare! She was supposed to look for work, but instread, she drove the car to her boyfriend's house every day instead. She never did find work. This is one of the things that should be monitored closely. 
Jeff Michka Added Sep 19, 2018 - 7:47pm
Was it a Cadillac, Carole.?  No welfare person would be caught dead driving a Volkswagen.  Read you comment exchange wit ol mindless Sutrino, who only loves rightist solutions, 'cause "those people" are out to get him.  Seems the rightist crowd here wants to make sure everyone beliees "those people" are all lazy and undeserving.  Rusted crows about being a good rightists and pulling himself up by the bootstraps to a "manager pants type," I doubt he really is.  His "they're all criminal stuff" is part of the overall social ends of the economic problems in the US.  BTW, what program as that woman with the car on?  The only person claiming "welfare cadillacs" was Ronnie Ray gun, and he had neither programs or even examples to reinforce his claims made to get rightists more motivated to get rid of any welfare and food stamps.  We go over and over this stuff, and nobody is served.  It's far more satisfying to badmouth minorities and poor people.  The poor work, for minimum wages, but most work.  I had to work at 15.  At 16 I was refueling aircraft to make a buck, my father having passed away the year before, leaving us destitute.  No opinions.  Now I see homeless folks working two minimum wage jobs, but not beingc able to afford a place to live, working 60-80 hours a week?  Why?  Unlike WB rightists think, it's not because they're lazy.  Maybe a Masters Degree would get them a third shift as a barrista at Starbucks, or another Amazon warehouse gig.
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 20, 2018 - 8:46am
Carole, I didn't know that you were in favor of using article 5 and support a convention of  state representative to draft Amendments to the Constitution, "Thomas: The entire government needs to be revamped." 
 
Carole your children didn't live in a neighborhood where the influence of other fatherless children are drawn to criminal gangs.  It took decades to reach the present social conditions.  It is the conditions outside the home but the large number of welfare single parent homes is one of those conditions.  
Carole McKee Added Sep 20, 2018 - 11:46am
Jeff: No, it was not a Cadillac. It was a Chevy, but it was three years newer than what I drove. And I'm all for giving to those who need help and want to better themselves. That's what we are supposed to do. And I know how hard it is to support yourself on low paying jobs. Before I had obtained any of my degrees, I worked two and sometimes three jobs just to keep a roof over my kids' heads. But the difference between me and the average welfare recipient is I had pride and the drive to do better. I wasn't going to jump on that ride. That's why I took out student loans and went to college. Of course, I got some scholarsips along the way, but to earn all the degrees I have, I racked up $160,000 in student loans. I just got them all paid off about a year and a half ago.
 
Thomas: No, I just meant the people in Congress. Most of them need to go, because they have just lost sight of what their real purpose is. And no, my children didn't grow up in a really bad neighborhood. Well, part of their time growing up we lived in North Carolina in a rather rural area, but when we moved back to Pittsburgh, we lived in a blue collar neighborhood. There were some behavior problems with some kids, but not like inner city ghettos. There were drug problems, but even wealthy neighborhoods have that problem. I always taught my kids to choose their friends wisely. If all kids would do that, then the "bad apple" so to speak, would be alone; therefore, have no power. But you have to keep the power over your kids, and not let the "bad guys" have it.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 20, 2018 - 12:35pm
Carole McKee when I first bought a house I was dirt poor for over 2 years, my food budget was less than $3 per day, and many friends have told me back then everyone was aware that I was always hungry.
 
It used to frost me when I saw expensive cable TV in welfare homes, because I worked 2 jobs and couldn't afford cable myself.  I lived on inexpensive food like rice, potatoes, old vegetables, and fish and meat I usually bagged myself, but saw people with food stamps buying expensive snack foods and name brand soda, with my tax money.
 
I don't want needy people who can't work to go hungry, but I sure as heck don't feel like giving anything to people who can but choose not to work.
Carole McKee Added Sep 20, 2018 - 1:32pm
Rusty: Neither do I. I don't think anybody is doing those people any favors by letting them collect money and not work for it. For one thing, when they reach retirement age, their Social Security depends on their work history. I know a woman who lived on Welfare most of her life but went to work at age 50. She worked at a good paying job and when she retired at age 65, she was able to collect $1250 a month. Her sister, however--another case of family Welfare life--didn't do that. She worked for a little while but quit. Well, her SS check was under $500 a month, most of that coming from her deceased husband. They only look at the last 15 years, I believe. But what is wrong with all of this is that the Social Security check can be enhanced with welfare cash, and paid-for medical coverage, rather than the $104 they take out for Medicare every month.
 
But aside from Social Security, people reap what they sow. You are always going to have those people who wait for hand-outs rather than move forward. What are you going to do? You can't just stop the programs, because there are people who need the help and should get it. I just think there should be better control and more monitoring. This crap about invading their privacy is just that. CRAP. If anyone takes money from the public assistance, their actions should be open to the public. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Sep 20, 2018 - 1:47pm
Rusty how about going back to the beginning.  Our founding generation practiced and recognized the need for taking care of those that couldn't help themselves.  They were Classic Liberals, "The law of nature teaches not only self-preservation but also preservation of others,'when one's own preservation come into competition.' " To secure a societies members  a society that fails to respond puts itself in jeopardy, it own preservation.  So the founders emphasis that "poor laws  not go beyond a minimal safety net." They saw a danger with generous welfare since it would promote irresponsibility,   Irresponsibility threatens the inherent natural right of every individual to liberty, which as Thomas Jefferson put it pursuit of happiness.  What was implied and stated in other text of the time is the right to exercise one's industry and partake in the fruits of ones sweat.
Rusty Smith Added Sep 20, 2018 - 2:47pm
Thomas Sutrina I don't see the evidence that our founding fathers envisioned a country where people who were not physically or mentally disabled to a point where they could not work, could subsist off handouts from the government. 
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think government subsidies were even though of back then.  If you needed assistance you had to go to a church or find someone who would be willing to give you a helping hand, and none of that would last forever if you seemed able to work but chose not to.
 
Later on as the country developed and we had a recession soup kitchens popped up, but even those were mostly funded by private generosity, not taxes.
 
These days there are entire generations of some families who have never worked for a living because we make it possible by taking care of them even if they don't want to work.