Post-truth = Risk of Tyranny = Risk of grave danger.

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Post-truth = Risk of Tyranny = Risk of grave danger.

I wrote this in response to Even A Broken Clocks recent post.


In the post-truth era there is no truth. Politicians can make up whatever they like. Any opposition is fake news. Their followers swallow it all.


How dangerous is that??

We live in the post-truth era. We do not believe in any experts or scientists anymore.


This is a huge danger.


It is a political ploy created by populist politicians to enable them to get away with murder. Global Warming is bollocks. The economy will not crash. There will be no war. The earth is flat. Once you have successfully discredited all experts and scientists, leaders can do what they want with utter impunity.


Trump, like many other leaders, is busy stripping away all safeguards in the pursuit of profit.


This creates risk of war, risk of huge environmental damage, risk of health and safety for employees, risk of social upheaval.


Ramp up the hate and division. Deny all the experts. Make up whatever you want. Refugees are all criminals, rapists and murderers. Tax cuts don’t favour the wealthy. Selling arms to Saudi is good business. Supporting polluting industry promotes jobs. Pouring out effluent into the rivers, seas and air will not damage the environment. Guns save lives. It doesn’t matter as long as you make a buck or two in the process.


If the ‘experts’ speak out they are now easily pushed aside as they are political pawns. They are always wrong. They are exaggerating or lying. They can be discounted. We do not believe experts any more.


This frees these populist leaders to do whatever they want. It opens the door to tyranny. It takes away all balance and checks. There is now no creditable opposition. The experts are political tools. They can be ignored.


So let’s chop down the Amazon. There won’t be any repercussions. You know it makes sense!


opher goodwin Added Dec 1, 2018 - 6:48pm
I always treat any reporting with a cynical mind. But that does not mean that I completely rule out everything. I do not believe that all the experts and scientists are in the pay of the evil ones. Once we stop taking any notice of them we are open to the lies of populists. Anything goes. I think we're back in the dark ages.
Ryan Messano Added Dec 1, 2018 - 10:15pm
Post truth is every time you post an article or comment on WB.  Just had to get that straight.
Neil Lock Added Dec 2, 2018 - 12:56am
In the post-truth era there is no truth. Politicians can make up whatever they like. Any opposition is fake news. Their followers swallow it all.
Absolutely right Opher, and the "global warming" fraud is a perfect example. Activists make up whatever crap they like; and the politicians swallow it because it fits their world view, and gives them an excuse for imposing yet more and higher taxes. And, as you say, it lets them "get away with murder."
We could believe "experts," if they showed some expertise and their advice actually brought us some benefit. We could believe "scientists," if they actually did good science; if they made testable predictions, then tested them against the observations and rejected them if they don't measure up, for example. But we've been misled, bullshat and lied to too often now.
...I suppose you'll be believing the BBC next.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Dec 2, 2018 - 1:37am
Opher, you have many good qualities:
- You are smart
- You are educated
- You are credibly appalled by violence and injustice
- You are friendly
But honesty? Come on!
TreeParty Added Dec 2, 2018 - 2:00am
Good post, opher. 
Someone needs to point out that just flat lying is not acceptable behavior. Most of us try to teach our children that as a necessary (if not sufficient) condition of adulthood and good citizenship; and most people learn that lesson, the hard way, as they grow up. But the idiot man-child in the Oval Office lies like he breathes, and his enablers turn a blind eye and worse, emulate him! This truly is a sad and dangerous state of affairs. Let's keep holding the liars' feet to the fire - they say sunlight is the best disinfectant.
  Insist that people like Neil Lock support their baseless claims about the "fraudulent nature" of global warming. I don't know where that ignoramus gets his news of the world, but his derogation of BBC is very telling. Insist that before people start cursing and flaming, they have their facts straight. 
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 4:01am
Neil - believing the BBC?? Yes I go along with a lot of the stuff they put out. They have an agenda but in general they are pretty good.
The climate issue is a good example of what I am talking about. We are allowing imbeciles like Trump to set an agenda for political/self-interest reasons.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 4:02am
Ben - thank you.
As I say - we are on extremely dangerous ground. There is no footing when the ground disappears.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 4:08am
Tree - I think it is a mindset. Once people are in the mindset that says - The BBC lies, experts are either political tools or plain wrong, all politicians lie, trust none of them - we are in the land of fools being led by fools.
There is no truth.
For me it is OK to be suspicious, even cynical, about our news sources, but to outright reject all evidence on the basis of personal prejudice is extremely dangerous.
Trump and Brexit now sets the agenda. Everything is either fake news or project fear.
Intelligence and rational thought has gone out of the window. 
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. We are being manipulated by these people. Facts do not count.
Neil Lock Added Dec 2, 2018 - 5:45am
TreeParty: It might help you to read two of my articles on this very site, "On Science and Nonscience" and "On Global Warming." Both have considerable relevance to this discussion.
Opher: It is two large steps (at least) to say that I "outright reject all evidence," and that I do so "on the basis of personal prejudice." Actually, as I've said elsewhere, when I first looked into the climate change issue back in 2008, I spent a month of evenings going backwards and forwards between the two sides, trying to work out which was telling the truth. I came down on the skeptical side, not through prejudice or even political viewpoint, but because the skeptics were far more likely than the alarmists to make their case in a reasoned way. And therefore, their case made more sense to me than the alarmist one.
Furthermore, alarmists were far keener to use ad hominems such as "denier," and to censor those who asked awkward questions. If their case is so good, I thought, why do they need to do these things? Why don't they just state the facts and the numbers objectively and honestly, and let us judge for ourselves? And why, even now, do alarmists like TreeParty feel the need to use words like "ignoramus" to describe skeptics like me? It is considerations like these which have led me to the view that the alarmists have acted, and still are acting, in bad faith; and therefore, any argument they make should be considered wrong until it has been proven right - and beyond reasonable doubt, too.
Stone-Eater Added Dec 2, 2018 - 5:49am
Good one. No need to comment :-)
Stone-Eater Added Dec 2, 2018 - 5:53am
BTW: It's about time to stop that tiring "global warming" subject. If some really believe in that, they should take measures to STOP it. Or they should shut up. In any way we'll see what happens, and the earth has gone through climate changes thousands of times during its 4.5 billion years of existence. Whether it fits the conditions for human life or not...
....oh I did comment LOL
Lindsay Wheeler Added Dec 2, 2018 - 8:32am
Ryan: Post truth is every time you post an article or comment on WB.  Just had to get that straight.
Ryan hits it out of the ballpark! So succinct!
Lindsay Wheeler Added Dec 2, 2018 - 8:36am
"Climate Change"!  
Yes huumans ended the last Ice Age!
Climate change happens all the time. I agree. That it is human caused?
The two biggest polluters are Communist China, Opher's preferred state, and India. Yet, in the cleanest country, America, Opher and his progressives want America to do something on it!  Does America control China or India?  
I have a suggestion, Let's nuke China and India---and stop big polluters!  That'll show them and shut up the climate changers. 
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 9:16am
Lindsay - I see mindless stupidity still rules!! 
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 9:19am
Neil - someone who denies is a denier. It is you who puts the negative connotation on that. You believe it; you should own it. Argue your case.
I disagree. I too have read all the reports and seen the science. I think it is scientifically irrefutable. Even Trump accepts it. I can't see how you could really have spent any time investigating this or else I would question how you set about investigating it.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 9:20am
Stone - I agree. This isn't merely about global warming. It extends into all aspects of life. We are setting the conditions for some extremely unsavoury populists to exploit us.
I think it is very dangerous.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 9:23am
Crackpots crawl out from under their stones and feel vindicated. Religious nutcases, intolerant extremists, political radicals. They feed off ancient texts and fake news.
What a farce!!
Stone-Eater Added Dec 2, 2018 - 9:42am
I have the impression that the more information humans get the more stupid they become. They're so overloaded by that, so they restrict their attention span to slogans and restrict themselves to black-white thinking. Or they simply refuse to THINK and play couch potato. But in that case they should better shut up, because having a cut'n'paste opinion doesn't stand the test....
TexasLynn Added Dec 2, 2018 - 10:38am
People assume that the disinformation that we see today is something new.  It isn't.  It's as old as humanity.
People assume that the evil of lying is the sole domain of the other side.  It isn't
People assume that they have no role is discriminating the falsehoods of their wide.  They do.
Tyranny does seek to hide the truth and silence those who would expose it.  If we were serious about combating that and being on the side of truth, we would seek to be intellectually honest in our discussions.  We would objectively review the narrative our side presents as truth.
We don't.  We won't.
A Post-Truth era?  When were we ever in a Truth era?
George N Romey Added Dec 2, 2018 - 10:39am
People in power lie because they can. If I lie to a cop I’m going to jail. Someone on Wall Street lies to an investigator they will use their money, power and influence to avoid punishment.
And if we had global government we’d all be slaves to the .01% as they lie their ass off.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 11:21am
Stone - I think you are right. Cutting and pasting from dubious propaganda sites does not say much for intelligent reasoning.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 11:23am
Tex - I agree with you.
Having a good debate with someone you disagree with is a great thing - as long as both sides reason, argue and are passionate from the heart.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 11:25am
George - I see you really have a thing about global government. Try looking at it as something else entirely - a body to oppose and limit that 0.1%'
Yes - people in power often lie - but not always - and the media doesn't always lie either.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 11:27am
Tex - what has changed is peoples' gullibility. They now have the internet to reinforce their own prejudices.
Stone-Eater Added Dec 2, 2018 - 11:30am
I just wrote a new little article about that stuff. I'm simply fed up by that constant old-fashioned "communist" bashing of people who apparently don't know what they talk about.
Neil Lock Added Dec 2, 2018 - 11:58am
Stone-Eater: I make no apologies for bringing up the "global warming" example. For it's a perfect example of exactly what Opher is talking about here. It wasn't my intention to argue the facts of that case on this thread, but to explore how people who are faced with two groups with diametrically opposed views can make a rational choice as to which to trust (or neither of them). In this case we have two sides, the first of which believes the other to be wrong and demands proof of their assertions, while the second calls members of the first side nasty names, and often seeks to suppress their views. On top of that, the second side demands draconian political action which will harm (and already has harmed) almost everyone except the political class and their favourites, while the first side don't want any political action that will harm innocent people.
Lynn is absolutely spot on when he says: Tyranny does seek to hide the truth and silence those who would expose it. I think it behooves all of us to look at these issues where truth is being called into question - and "global warming" isn't by any means the only one - and ask, which side is behaving honestly and which side is not?
Stone-Eater Added Dec 2, 2018 - 12:04pm
Nothing happens without profit in mind. So the hysteria about climate change and the measures like CO2 certificates generate - money. The fact that Germany doesn't allow Diesel cars anymore forces people to buy new cars - it generates - money. Whatever happens on that planet, always ask if something generates money or not. Then you know what is true.
Katharine Otto Added Dec 2, 2018 - 12:21pm
This reminds me of the three blind men holding on to different parts of the elephant and each assuming he know what the whole elephant looks like.  I suspect every system of beliefs has a part of "the truth," but acts as though it has the "whole truth."  That applies to scientists, religions (or atheism), politics, or whatever grand issue happens to be under discussion.  It seems that when someone begins to believe he has the "whole truth," he closes his mind to anything that doesn't fit the frame and becomes intolerant of those who challenge his beliefs.  On any and all of these subjects, I would contend the facts are not all in and maybe never will be.  Truth is a process.  People aren't necessarily lying when they believe they know the truth.  Tolerance for other peoples' "truth" and a degree of open-mindedness about beliefs that don't fit the frame is a mark of maturity and intelligence (but that's only my truth).  
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 12:45pm
Stone - I know what you mean. It's daft. I'll check it out.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 12:51pm
Neil - I have great respect for the quality of your reasoning (except when applied to either climate change or the terrible devastation of our environment). My major concern is the way populist politicians, with cries of fake news or project fear, are undermining the media, scientists and experts for their own agenda.
Once you have got your mob accepting that anything, any logic, coming from the other side is lies then you have a tyranny.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 12:58pm
Katharine - thanks for that. I would agree. There is no complete truth that anybody holds. I think that robust discussion and debate exposes that - or at least can if it is not fuelled by tribal positioning and propaganda.
All too often on WB we have tribal behaviour in place of robust debate. It is emotional rather than intellectual.
People merely stereotype, pigeon-hole and ignore the debate. You press the button and get a knee-jerk response.
I guess we all do that to an extent.
I believe in tolerance, empathy and respect. I also do not believe that all the media, scientists and experts are in the pay of the 0.1%. We should recognise the bias but engage.
To believe that there is no truth apart from what is put out by a political leader or certain dubious propaganda sites is extremely dangerous.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 12:58pm
Stone - everything that happens has people profiting from it.
Stone-Eater Added Dec 2, 2018 - 12:59pm
Depends on how you define "profit" ;-)
Ryan Messano Added Dec 2, 2018 - 1:03pm
Speaking of tribes, Opher, Can you do me a huge favor.
I desperately want to overcome my tribalism, and want to be able to be able to objectively evaluate all sides.
Can you let me know what five biographies of Americas Founders you’ve read, so I can be objective like you.  You are so wise on American history when you talk.  
And since you are so wise and consider all sides, can you let me know, because I dong know much at all, What seven conservative news websites you’ve read for two months of your life? I so appreciate it, and am so grateful that I have wise people like you around to show me how to be objective.  Thank you!!!
Stone-Eater Added Dec 2, 2018 - 1:17pm
?? LOL
Neil Lock Added Dec 2, 2018 - 1:24pm
Stone-Eater: Climate hysteria and the like don't generate money. They certainly don't generate any wealth, either! They are merely a way of extracting money from others. "Follow the money" is a fairly decent maxim for finding the bad guys, but I think that a better one is: "Who is raking in money without creating any wealth?"
Neil Lock Added Dec 2, 2018 - 1:54pm
Opher: My major concern is the way populist politicians, with cries of fake news or project fear, are undermining the media, scientists and experts for their own agenda.
Isn't "project fear" exactly the way Tony Blair tried to "justify" invading Iraq? Against the advice of the experts who had inspected Saddam's arsenal?
Isn't "project fear" exactly the way global warming and pollution alarmists are trying to soften us up so they can violate even more of our rights and freedoms? Against the principle of "innocent until proven guilty," and on the advice only of those "experts" that are biased to their side?
George N Romey Added Dec 2, 2018 - 2:20pm
Opher really you have the intellectual  maturity level of a 4 year old. 90% of the .01% are evil. That’s how they got to be the .01%. And that’s exactly who runs the show. Having strong local government is the only narrow band keeping us from the claws of a bunch of twisted sadistic assholes. Albeit very rich ones.
The hippie era is no more just the Studio 54 era. Move on. Hippies thought they were going to change the world. Disco bunnies thought coke wasn’t addictive. Both were wrong.
wsucram15 Added Dec 2, 2018 - 2:24pm
Ryan...I can name many.  But again can you name the justices of the supreme court? How about the first chief justice? Name 5 Chief Justices?  Their relevance to us today? last time. Shut up while entitled to your opinion, its worth the same as Ophers or SEF, or mine or anyone elses.
Its an opinion, nothing more and not worth a damn to anyone but you.
Opher..while global warming is happening, some sort of change is occurring depending on which science you believe or which conspiracy theory you subscribe to...
However, at the bottom of it all, is someone with power and money either causing it or waiting to profit from it.  End game.
Dino Manalis Added Dec 2, 2018 - 2:32pm
 We always need the plain truth; the whole truth; and nothing but the truth!
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 2:47pm
Stone - I define profit as gaining wealth or power.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 2:49pm
Neil - no it isn't. Blair was duped by the US on Iraq. He went full into it a. because he was the US lapdog and fell for their guff on WMD and b. because he thought he could be like Thatcher and gain kudos from winning a war. He was misinformed, gullible and wrong.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 2:55pm
George - one gets tired of your rude bleating. I have an IQ that is perfectly alright thanks and a rational mind that obviously exceeds your abilities. You come out with the same stupid responses and are unable to see the argument.
While I don't mind debating the complex issue of how we create a body that controls the powerful and elite I do object to your childish put-downs.
I look at the present situation where the elite are unopposed and doing exactly what they want and I want it stopped.
You seem quite content to allow them to continue and come out with stupidities about some revolution that will eventually rectify the situation.
Who is living in cloud cuckoo land?
BTW - the hippies did change the world.
Ryan Messano Added Dec 2, 2018 - 2:57pm
I have to hand it to George.
This was one of the truest jewels he has uttered on WB
‘Opher really you have the intellectual maturity level of a 4 year old. 90% of the .01% are evil’.
No arguments!!!
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 2:59pm
Jeanne - leave the silly child to play with himself. That's all he can do. He's a one-track, damaged goods.
Yes there is always someone who profits from whatever happens. Those people want chaos and disorder.
But global warming is real. The evidence is quite clear. It is already causing major problems and they will get a lot worse.
Some people don't care and some are taken in by propaganda.
But this fake news, project fear agenda is undermining stability and social cohesion. That is the most worrying aspect. Once that happens civilisations collapse. Cohesion is all-important.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 3:00pm
Dino - we need it but we have never, ever had it.
Ryan Messano Added Dec 2, 2018 - 3:07pm
Dear Jeanni(e?),
Please pardon my wrestling with the last part of your name.
Could you be so kind and let me know what you learned from the Federalist Papers, written by Madison, Jay, and Hamilton?  You seem so wise on American law and politics, and I am so unaware of so much, it makes me frantic at times to think how much I don’t know.  I really need wise people like you with degrees to guide and lead peons like me around.  
I think I can name the nine SCOTUS justices, but unless you agree I won’t be certain I’m right.
Yes, indeed, massa, Ryan be shettin’ up, not wantin’ De misses to get angry with him, and giving him smackings and whackings, and grumblings and mumbling, No sah!
I just thought de massa was so wise and knowed so much that she could easily tell poor Ryan easily, Das all.
Bill H. Added Dec 2, 2018 - 3:25pm
Great article Oph-
The division of America is certainly a producer of profits, and may in fact be a part of "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs", as it's really getting out of hand.
Partisan news outlets, partisan web "news" sites, and now I understand that it has become normal for both City Council and local Sheriff candidates to advertise their partisan politics to manipulate voting, which was not allowed in the past (at least in my area).
Seems that nobody wants to research the news from multiple sources in order to come up with reality when they can simply get it cooked to the taste and perfection from their talking heads of choice or partisan web "news" source. We even have a clown here on WB who came up with his own propaganda "news" site.
What ever happened to people like Walter Cronkite?
Ryan Messano Added Dec 2, 2018 - 3:27pm
Hahahaha, quotes that leftie Walter Cronkite as objective news.
Bill, can you help simple types like me out and direct me where to go to read seven conservative news websites online?
Thank you, I wish I was as astute and learned as you.  I hope I’m like you when I get growed up.
Ryan Messano Added Dec 2, 2018 - 3:30pm
Badlose, if I was in the same room as you, I wager a good uppercut upside the noggin would greatly help the interfered thinking that seems to be belaboring your cranium.  I reckon I’d be happy to assist you in that respect one day.
Neil Lock Added Dec 2, 2018 - 4:12pm
Opher: I look at the present situation where the elite are unopposed and doing exactly what they want and I want it stopped. Exactly my sentiments, too. The political elites are all in cahoots with each other, and against us human beings.
The problem is, you don't seem to recognize that. So you want one set of political elites to take over; the ones that espouse your particular ideology! And that, of course, would do us no good at all.
Ryan Messano: You have gone beyond the bounds of reasonable comment in what you said to Opher at 3:30pm EST.
Neil Lock Added Dec 2, 2018 - 4:16pm
Jeanne: at the bottom of it all, is someone with power and money either causing it or waiting to profit from it.
Well said, my lady friend. Politics is all about screwing people. Whether or not they did anything wrong.
Ryan Messano Added Dec 2, 2018 - 4:24pm
Lock, you are no Locke,
and Trump is right, you deal with the foolish with nonsense.
Badlose is one brainwashed dimwit, and his pretensions of intellect on here are nauseating.  You conservatives who try to reason with him are wasting your time.  It’s a disgrace to see you go back and forth on topics, when the man can plainly dismiss reason so often, and hasn’t got any humility about himself at all.
I’m actually doing him and his fellow leftists a favor, by socking them in their intellectual mouths.  It’s the only way to rouse him from the delusion he’s in.  He will thank me for it later.
Ryan Messano Added Dec 2, 2018 - 4:25pm
You fiscal conservatives, social liberals are so blind.  You can’t see that social choices have fiscal consequences.
John Howard Added Dec 2, 2018 - 4:40pm
Stone Eater,
Just because I don't like thinking very much, I still resent being called a couch potato.  I see myself as much more of an erudite sofa spud.  I know a lot of stuff is true because I actually saw it myself.  On TV!
So, please, before you dare to disagree with me, make sure you can recite Washington's Farewell Address by heart while doing a handstand on a stack of bibles.  Otherwise, you have no right to an opinion.
Ryan Messano Added Dec 2, 2018 - 4:51pm
Good stuff, John.
I think you’re making it too easy on him though.
In reality he should be able to recite the Constitution while doing backflips on the handrail of the ocean liner he’s on.  
You have to be tough with his type.  You see what has happened to him already with him being constantly babied.  He’s turned into a cranky wimp, who turns his posts into safe spaces.
On hellivision, there’s a great, non Christian (since we Christians have no problem proving truth without the Bible) book called ‘The Plug in Drug’.  Hellivision And Hollyweird might be the two worst innovations in American history, and have succeeded far beyond our enemies wildest hopes, into turning us into a nation of corrupt dimwits.
George N Romey Added Dec 2, 2018 - 5:36pm
Opher when challenged on who exactly these wonderful benevolent kings are that would rule the world with compassion for the huddled masses you give an answer a 6 year old would. Some tribbe about “good people.”
You might have good intentions but in the end you sound as moronic as the Fox News crowd. Wake up to the plain reality of life and I and others will treat you as an intelligent person.  I’ve been around the .01%. 90% of them are programmed to treat people as chattel. The other 10% are total messes living on their inheritance. That is the way of the world.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 6:26pm
Bill - yes these are strange times when people would rather believe the clown in the bar, the clown in office or the clown on WB rather than listen to the painstaking work of experts.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 6:30pm
Neil - let the show demonstrate the limits of his intellectual paucity. He repeatedly shows himself up for the immature twerp he is. It is amusing.
I do not propose putting the elite in charge of the elite. I want a system to control them. Presently they are a law unto themselves and I have heard no intelligent ideas coming from anywhere as to how they should be curtailed. You yourself want to hide away in your corner and let them get on with it.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 6:32pm
John - I have just read 49 biographies of the founding fathers of a foreign country (a breakaway colony of my own country) and done handstands on the Koran, Bible and Bhagavad Gita - is that worthy of an opinion?
Jeff Michka Added Dec 2, 2018 - 6:35pm
Geezus, Despite Mogg Turd's constant spiel about how bad WB is, the rightist, headed by Lyin Ryan go out of their little ways to belittle everyone not Lyin Ryan or  his competition in Lies, Lyin Lindsay.  You know, Ryan, if you wrote an article on your love of Vinny and your family of Turds, people MIGHT think you're human.  And now ol Geeho has pulled to stops out on his crying and tears,  Imagine, having struggled like Geeho to get elevated into the ranks of Elites, he can't get in, they don't want him.  And it will be sooner rather than later AWS will knock the legs out of Geeho's new feed trough, and he'll be back crying about not having a "good job." 
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 6:37pm
George - this is the wrong thread. You're stuck in a rut.
I made no suggestion of kings and rulers. I want a mechanism for the people to control the bastards who are presently fucking everything up. No. I am not, like you, in favour of some puerile armed rebellion with its consequential murder, torture and rape. That is worse than what we have. I want the elite controlling.
Now, if you can put your great intellect to work and come up with an alternative suggestion instead of more silliness and misquoting and moronic put-downs and personal nastiness, I'm all ears. Cos I thought better of you than this silliness.
opher goodwin Added Dec 2, 2018 - 6:40pm
Jeff - leave the twisted little Golem child to his warped virginity and twisted fanaticism. He's a victim of abuse.
Ryan Messano Added Dec 2, 2018 - 7:21pm
Just beautiful.  Badlose embraces Michka's vile and perverse lies, and derides me for telling the hard truth.  Scary there is anyone on here who takes both of you seriously.  Jeff, are you ever going to write an article again?  Besides worthless and garbage comments, what are you on WB for?
Bill Caciene Added Dec 3, 2018 - 9:31am
I can’t think of a single politician that makes up whatever he or she likes. I also can’t think of a follower of a particular politician agreeing with everything their favored politician says. So if you will be so kind, please provide an example of politicians "making up whatever they like" and their followers "swallowing it all."
Steel Breeze Added Dec 3, 2018 - 10:13am
@Biil C...........exactly!...
TexasLynn Added Dec 3, 2018 - 10:43am
Bill C >> I can’t think of a single politician that makes up whatever he or she likes.
It's all generic... people saying, "I hate the guy and disagree with his policies which equates to he lies and makes up everything he says, and his supporters are poopoo heads".  It's literally a kindergarten mentality.
I disliked Obama and his policies.  I think he lied from time to time; and a lot of what he said had a propaganda like ideological slant.  I would never say (or believe) that he made up whatever he liked as a rule.  If his followers believed him; it had little to do with mindless devotion and everything to do with ideological agreement.
If I look honestly at Trump... he lies from time to time.  His message is often couched in ideological terms.  Sound familiar?
Intellectual honesty, and self-reflection are in order, but I doubt we'll see it.  Sometimes there's no coming back from where you find yourself; if ever you were anywhere else.
George N Romey Added Dec 3, 2018 - 10:51am
I'm not stuck in a rut Opher I'm just getting lots of enjoyment watching you make a fool of yourself albeit you might have good intentions.  You want someone now to rule the elite?  Again, who?  Consider the percentage of global wealth they control it ain't gonna happen. In this world money talks.  Since biblical times money has talked.
There was this guy a couple thousands years ago called Jesus Christ.  Probably not a deity but someone that was wandering the land speaking out against the cruelty of the elite of the time.  You see where he ended up.  And that was as the line in Jesus Christ Superstar said "4 BC had no mass communication."
When I challenge you who specifically would head up this commission or whatever you want to call it, how would it defuse local differences and enforce laws you can't answer me.  If you are as smart as you say you are certainly you given this research?  Instead you talk like a 5 year old.  If you want to be treated intelligently by me and others than act intelligently.
opher goodwin Added Dec 3, 2018 - 1:26pm
George - I reckon a modified UN would do the job George.
I don't want anybody ruled per se. I want them subject to international law and their exploitative activities curtailed.
Jesus was the leader of a very minor Jewish cult. He was hardly worthy of a mention back in his day. If it wasn't for St Paul and Constantine he'd still be a minor footnote.
The five year old is yourself George. You haven't got a clue, not a single suggestion, nil, zilch, on how to deal with this elite that you rant about. All you have ever come out with is an extremely unintelligent comment about inciting a revolution - as if that was a great idea. I'd rather live under Mao than that - and he was a monster.
opher goodwin Added Dec 3, 2018 - 1:31pm
Bill/Steel - I am surprised. Haven't you heard of Donald Trump. He's been in the news quite a bit recently. He makes it up as he goes along, vacillates like mad, is very extreme, racist, misogynistic and his base lap it up! You two should check him out.
opher goodwin Added Dec 3, 2018 - 1:38pm
Tex - I think Trump is very clever but he often mouths off without thinking things through. He's a populist because he has analysed what a group of people want and goes about feeding them the meat. His cleverness is, despite being extremely different, in understanding what it is that makes his base ticks. He makes it up as he goes along without consulting the people who understand the true nature of the situation. He delivers only for his base.
The danger is that he mouths off and gets it wrong. He treats the most complex situations, particularly with foreign affairs, as a trade deal.
TexasLynn Added Dec 3, 2018 - 2:54pm
Opher >> I don't want anybody ruled per se. I want them subject to international law and their exploitative activities curtailed.
Opher can you read that back to yourself and be honest about what you're really saying.  You don't want anybody ruled per se... you just want them to be forced to do what YOU (and the elites at the UN) think is in their best interest.  That's just saying "ruled" using conscious soothing words.
You want the backwards hicks out there ruled for the good of the world.  There's a word for that... IF you're willing to call a spade a spade.
Opher >> I reckon a modified UN would do the job.
You pick the UN because you think they would be benevolent (as in agree with you).  Imagine if the organization to define international law were not so sympathetic to your ideology?
Let me help you out...
We would be much better off if we organized under Christ.  His teachings if followed properly would bring about peace and prosperity that the world has never known.  We need all nations to slowly be brought under the wing of the "modified" Catholic Church.  Not ruled by the diocese per se, just subject to Christian (now international) law to curtail their violent and exploitative activities.
Now... as a Christian, Opher, let me officially say that... I don't want that at all.  I don't want anybody forced to subject themselves to ANY international Christian organization.  The results would be horrendous and anti-Christian.  I, at least, realize the same goes for all seekers of such power as well (even secular)... like the UN.
But you advocate for tyranny, Opher, as long as it's your particular brand of tyranny.  People who don't agree with you (pick an issue) need to be forced to either capitulate or shut up.  That IS what you are saying here (and have said as long as I've read practically anything you've written).
Me?  I want self-determination.  Freedom for men (via nations) to decide and set the course for their posterity as best they see fit; not faceless, heartless, bureaucrats (or dictators) setting that course.  That course always leads to the same place.  Slavery and misery.
Opher >>  I'd rather live under Mao than that....
How about Stalin?  I've seen a lot of foolish statements on WB, but you're going for the prize on that one. 
Opher >> I think Trump is very clever but...
There is nothing new under the sun, Opher, not even Trump.  I suspect you never saw any of that in Obama or Clinton…
I'm at least intellectually honest enough to see it on both sides.
Even A Broken Clock Added Dec 3, 2018 - 3:36pm
Opher - in my last post I deliberately used the adjective willful to modify ignorance. As expected, this received much pushback. People are just very reactive when being called out for a characteristic they have, but wish to believe the opposite.
Someone in this string asked when have we ever been in a period of truth instead of a period of lies. We may never have been in a period of truth, but there was agreement that certain sources of information were more worthy of trust. Those who had studied or worked in a field and gained expertise were normally given credibility when they made a statement based upon the findings of their research.
But over time, we've grown accustomed to the experts reversing course and then reversing it again. Think about the studies that define whether coffee is good or bad for you. Seems like every couple of years a new study is revealed that says "Everything you ever believed about coffee is WRONG! Believe this instead."  I can see why those who don't understand the scientific method have lost faith in it. I have not lost faith, but I do understand the scientific method.
Mr. Vengeance Added Dec 3, 2018 - 3:47pm
Truth: Whatever set of lies one chooses to believe in.
opher goodwin Added Dec 3, 2018 - 3:58pm
Tex - a ruler in my view is a President/King. I want a legislative body and a rule of law. I want people stopped from exploiting, destroying, controlling and creating wars for profit.
Well in actual fact Tex I think you'd have to agree that Jesus would thoroughly endorse the whole charter of human rights of the UN and would want the money lenders who run the world kicking out!
Yep I'd rather live under Stalin than be involved in the terror of a civil war. Do you really have any idea how cruel, terrifying a gruesome a civil war would really be? Just read the accounts. Stalin and Mao would be far preferable to that horror.
I haven't seen the cavalier division, hatred and irresponsibility under any other President of any hue. Trump is by far the worst I have ever seen.
George N Romey Added Dec 3, 2018 - 4:06pm
TL you’ve got more tact than I do responding to such a simpleton. Opher is just like Ryan on the opposite spectrum. They like to pat themselves on the back claiming they are champions of all that is good and noble.
When called out on their ridiculous ideas they trot out arguments just as ridiculous. Most of the world has no desire for Western culture. Even the fantasy one that Opher imagines. So the world should live as Opher sees fit. Like I said he’s (and Ryan) got the intellectual capacity of a 5 year old.
opher goodwin Added Dec 3, 2018 - 4:06pm
EABC - yes - the past had some lies and bias but we could generally see the truth in the midst of that and know that most reporting was credible. We took it with a pinch of cynicism but we generally accepted it. Now we are in the midst of populist lies, right-wing propaganda sites and a thorough disbelief in anything that comes out of the mouths of scientists or experts. They'd rather believe the lies of Trump and Bannon. Those populist idiots have undermined the whole fabric of society for their own ends. The same in the UK with Brexit. Everything that is against their interests is fake news or project fear.
Truth has been submerged.
Science has shot itself in the foot by coming out with contradictory research and getting polls wrong. Now nobody believes anything they say. That is plain stupid, uneducated and unintelligent.
One only has to look at the world science and technology has created in the last hundred years. From horse and cart to space stations. We take all the success for granted.
opher goodwin Added Dec 3, 2018 - 4:09pm
Michael - that is the attitude that undermines the whole fabric of our society, will bring it down and allow the dogmatic religious or political fanatics to take over to everyone's detriment. They believe one hundred percent that they are right. They have the cohesion. You could find yourself with complete nutcases like the child, ISIS or Lindsay running the show.
This is what happens with empires. They lose their faith in the myths that hold them together.
Dave Volek Added Dec 3, 2018 - 4:36pm
This has been a great thread. I applaud those who have challenged you in a civil manner, and I applaud you for defending your position.
I still think it is folly to assume that we can find the real truth, then solve all these issues if we insist on being governed by political parties. The objective of any political party is to win elections, not better society. If a party can win elections, its high-ranking members have more status, influence, and power than ordinary people. That's the prime motive.
True it is that western democracy has corralled the power-accumulation instinct to some degree. And we in the west should be thankful for living in these times and geographical locations. But it's time for something better than trying to bend the will of a political party in a certain direction. 
Neil Lock Added Dec 3, 2018 - 4:37pm
Broken Clock: I can see why those who don't understand the scientific method have lost faith in it.
No, I disagree. It is those who, like you and me, do understand the scientific method - make predictions, test them, modify or reject the hypothesis as necessary - who have lost faith in the way it is being misused by those with political agendas. On all sides, not just the left.
Neil Lock Added Dec 3, 2018 - 4:43pm
Lynn: I want self-determination.  Freedom for men (via nations) to decide and set the course for their posterity as best they see fit.
Beautifully put, except for the two words in brackets. I would replace the word "nations" by "voluntary associations."
Neil Lock Added Dec 3, 2018 - 4:59pm
Michael B: Truth: Whatever set of lies one chooses to believe in. :-)
wsucram15 Added Dec 3, 2018 - 5:04pm
You know Opher..I leave and come back for the past couple of years now and for the most part, nothing has changed. People still fighting back and forth over black and white, good and bad.  Facts vs. someone elses facts.   Me too..trying to help people see the good in things.
Everything is political when in the end, its not. Politics is an opinion, its not fact.  Its your opinion on how you think things should go.  When you are sick, having a good time or on are not thinking -"wow politics".  IDK..maybe some people are..
Its like music, some people are diehard beatles fans and others like the stones.  Still some like them both equally.
They also had an effect on what we think and events.
I know its a stretch..but had to make a correlation that people could say, ok maybe its important and I love it, but not worth killing someone over.  Well, not sane people.
There have been mass killings and bombs were sent. People have been shot over this, run over and a girl was killed by a car for no reason.  It is a war zone out here.
Enough.  Its all bull shit.
They all lie, its about money, they have it and we do not, we fight each other.  No one in power now will stop this because they will not suffer for the people. There are no more leaders, just politicians.
Its Christmas, go enjoy your families and all deserve that.  Stop arguing.
TexasLynn Added Dec 3, 2018 - 5:30pm
Neil Lock >> Beautifully put, except for the two words in brackets. I would replace the word "nations" by "voluntary associations."
Thanks, and yes... when nations are no longer voluntary, they should split into a collection that is.  In the same spirit when two or more nations find they have enough in common, they should consider joining into one.
Eventually (as in 100s or 1000s of years) maybe the human race finds itself in such a place (common culture) to form the Opher utopia of world government.  But it should not be rushed or forced lest we form yet another tyranny.
All us advocates of self-determination must be wary of those who seek to enslave us for our own good.  At least Opher wouldn't let a single man do it (by his definition) maybe not even two or three... but tyranny by committee, "I want a legislative body"; that's OK.
opher goodwin Added Dec 3, 2018 - 7:10pm
Dave - good to hear from you. I agree with you. Politics is all about power and not making things better. But they do need to focus a bit on delivering or they don't get the votes. Some politicians are there for the right reasons.
If we could get away from party politics it would help.
opher goodwin Added Dec 3, 2018 - 7:13pm
Hey Jeanne - I will sure enjoy Christmas with family and enjoy meeting up with friends. They'll be the odd drink or two and some laughter and cheer. That's what life's about.
But behind that there's politics and those bastards do make a real difference to peoples' lives. Their decisions kill.
opher goodwin Added Dec 3, 2018 - 7:20pm
No Tex - I'm all for freedom. I'm certainly not advocating tyranny - that's what we have now. The global elite are tyrannising the world. We're lucky. Both of us are in the minority segment who still do OK out of it. Most of the world is kept in abject poverty by the way those bastards operate.
I want them curtailed. Got any other suggestions on how to do that? At the moment they are without any regulation, siphoning wealth into their coffers, exploiting, polluting and destroying with impunity.
Do you propose we commit suicide with a revolution (check out the condition of Syrian cities) like George suggests? Or do you retreat into local communities and leave them to it (and hope they leave you alone) like Neil suggests? Or make Texas a separate nation and banish them?
Ryan Messano Added Dec 3, 2018 - 10:49pm
Quite true, FEC, and wonderfully said.  I'd like to add this to piggyback off what you said.
Wat a vicious snake you are, George R.  I no sooner commend you for uttering a truth, when you are back in the gutter, up to your usual truth-butchery.
The fact is, George, until you learn to fight for what is right in private, you won't be a man, and neither will most of the males on WB.  Personally, that's a fight that will continue until death, but at least some of us are fighting.  You certainly are not.  As such, you spend your time ridiculing and lampooning (look that up, hate to condescend, but when you are lazy and impudent, you will be talked down to) what you do not understand. 
What too many on here do not realize is our personal worth has absolutely nothing to do with others estimation of us, and everything to do with our living up to our consciences standards, which hopefully, it's not defiled, as some on here have defiled consciences, that may be reprobate and cannot be recovered.  That is a frightening thought.  When a person has done so much evil in their life, they can no longer understand right and wrong, they have seared their conscience and are doomed to a lifetime of misery and an afterlife of torment.  But, this will get the usual scoffing and scorning from the usual suspects.  America was greatly profited by Jonathan Edwards, 'Sinners in the hands of an angry God', and it would be profited greatly by this again. 
If one feels bad about their choices, that is great, that means they still have a conscience.  Also, the reader may be informed, those who pretend to be conservatives who pretend that I am some plague on conservatism are a bunch of frauds.  If they were fighting themselves in private and weren't slaves of their own desires, they would agree entirely with me.  But they like to comment on fiscal issues, and to blindly ignore that social choices will never fail to affect fiscal issues of individuals, families, and nations. 
This comment will badly offend and discombobulate the liberals (look that word up too).  They will continue to snort, sniff, and sneer as they malevolently pursue their corrupt paths. 
opher goodwin Added Dec 4, 2018 - 4:51am
Ear - I believe there is truth. It might not be absolute but it is near enough.
Science has brought us an amazing advancement in technology that has altered the world and transformed our lives. Some of that is for the best and some of that is far worse. Mostly it has improved.
We are always very keen to seize the fruits of this work - transport, energy, computers, medicine, materials, gadgets...…… but we are keen to bash scientists and experts if they are not one hundred percent certain.
We have gone from the horse and cart and oil lanterns to nuclear fusion and space stations in no time at all.
So we will place our trust in the latest jet-liner but will reject evolution. We will try the latest cancer drug treatment but deny climate change.
The truth? What is that? It has many levels. Is it a factual concept of what has occurred, how it has occurred and how that operates?
That is what we are investigating. We are in the infancy of science. We have understood so much so quickly. We still have a lot to learn. But we have made great progress. Scientists and experts have a pretty good handle on what is going on - far better than any of the 'public' or politicians.
Social Cohesion is much more important than the careers of politicians. 
We need to put an end to this politicisation of information - both the perversion of science and the constant crying of Fake News and Project Fear. It is tearing apart the fabric of society.
Populism is destroying cohesion. It is tearing our societies apart and playing into the hands of those who want us to fall.
It's time we put more faith into scientists and experts. They do not all talk rubbish.
Species extinction is real.
Climate change is real.
Evolution is real.
Brexit will badly damage our country.
Trump is actively causing division and hatred.
A healthy scepticism is one thing. Total rejection of all the evidence is something else. We are throwing the baby out with the bath water and allowing the religious lunatics and political extremists to spout their stupidity unopposed.
Look at the lunatics on this thread!
Mr. Vengeance Added Dec 4, 2018 - 5:25am
@ Opher - "that is the attitude that undermines the whole fabric of our society, will bring it down and allow the dogmatic religious or political fanatics to take over to everyone's detriment."
The right words, but the wrong order and syntax. It should read, "The dogmatic religious or political fanatics are the whole fabric of society, and your undermining attitude brings it down, to our detriment, but everyone else's enlightenment."
You, my Limey friend, are one of those political fanatics.
opher goodwin Added Dec 4, 2018 - 6:39am
Michael - Lol - I'll leave you in the hands of the virgin child and Lindsay who you laud.
Mr. Vengeance Added Dec 4, 2018 - 2:16pm
@ Opher - "I'll leave you in the hands of the virgin child and Lindsay who you laud."
LOL on you...where the fuck did you get THAT shit from? You're obviously deteriorating.
Ward Tipton Added Dec 6, 2018 - 2:22am
Global Government = Guaranteed Tryanny.
opher goodwin Added Dec 6, 2018 - 2:20pm
Michael - just extrapolating from what you said.
opher goodwin Added Dec 6, 2018 - 2:27pm
Free - thank you for that. You make some good points. Yes science has provided the tools through which we are destroying the planet.
I don't know if you can hold the inventor responsible or the people who misuse the invention. There's a debate.
All people are flawed but it is hoped that a group of people working together can produce things that are greater than any one of them could have produced alone. We make laws to cover the flaws.
If we have good governance the laws are good enough to prevent the damage meted out by individuals - that is the reason for laws and governments.
We need to select out politicians more wisely.
Religious and political fanatics are the bane of the world. They will destroy us.
opher goodwin Added Dec 6, 2018 - 2:29pm
Ward - that totally depends on what you mean by government.
I would say that an uncontrolled global elite is complete tyranny and that's what we have right now.
Ryan Messano Added Dec 6, 2018 - 3:16pm
The problem with you liberals is you want respect, but you refuse to be respectable.  Your parents never whipped you, so I'm dealing with a bunch of spoiled brats on here, who are pitching deleting temper tantrums whenever their whims aren't worshiped.  Pathetic.
Applies to Badlose, bigtime!
TexasLynn Added Dec 6, 2018 - 3:32pm
Ryan M >>  brats on here, who are pitching deleting temper tantrums whenever their whims aren't worshiped.  Pathetic.
Whoa Ryan... I distinctly remember Opher telling me he never has and never would delete a comment.  So I'm assuming you're talking about others in this case.
As for the spoiled part... I reserve judgment... but it would explain a lot. :)
opher goodwin Added Dec 7, 2018 - 8:45am
Tex - I don't delete on principle. I leave the comments up to allow others to judge the quality of the comments. 
I have stopped responding to the juvenile personal comments of the child. He's too much of a twerp.