Civility Wars

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I posted this first in June, 2018.   It seems relevant in the context of all this meta- about Writer's Beat.  My general opinions on that topic are to permit things, within reason.  We'll see--this one pushes the bounds pretty far--if that's OK, I'll go further. 

 

Civility Wars
Let's start with Robert DeNiro's "F--- Trump" expostulation at the Tony Awards.  It was bleeped on live US TV by the six-second buffer manager, but it got out elsewhere and went viral on the Internet.  So, mission accomplished?  I would say not.  He was heavily criticized, even by those who agreed with the sentiment, and it provided an excuse for Drumpfites to gleefully equate the bad behavior of their political opponents with their hero's misbehavior.

I don't care so much about that; we are not required to be respectful to the Orange Dingleberry Who Happens to be Head of State and Chief Executive, (may he eat something foul and sicken beyond recovery), but I do question the efficacy of the comment, which I would add was unscripted and completely out of context.  The sentence is in the imperative form, telling us to do something which I have absolutely no desire to do.  I don't really care about his love life, with Melania, Stormy, or whoever; in fact, it's pretty grotesque even to think of it.

Instead I would have preferred "Depose Trump!"  meaning both to remove him from office and also suggestion to subject him to making a deposition, a formal testimony under oath, which would be a good means to putting him permanently on defensive, if not on the way out (see Clinton, Bill, and Lewinsky, Monica).

Next, the Incident at Red Hen, the restaurant in Lexington, Virginia, when the owner turned away "Trump's Mouthpiece" (as she was called, quite accurately) Sarah Huckabee Sanders, not allowing her party to dine there.  Again, I have no quarrel with the underlying sentiment, and I would assert both that she (the owner) has the right to deny service based on her political opinion and that Sanders, in a public venue, is fair game for members of the public to rebuke or otherwise take her to task.  In Sanders' defense, I will say that her job is a thankless one and an easy target for attack:  press secretaries for all Presidents have to prevaricate, obfuscate, and even lie on occasion at their boss' direction, though Sanders is worse than most in both frequency and manner of the false and fallacious.

I would say, though, that the owner's action is probably a net bad-for-business choice (maybe she accepts that gladly), and that there was a better way to handle it. It was discreetly handled by both parties, so the ruckus was all later. I say, do your job, allow her to be served, but then put her in the arena and let the public have at her.  Something like what the cast members of "Hamilton" chose to do when they saw Mike Pence in the audience.

Then we come to TV comic/political commentator Samantha Bee, who called Ivanka Trump a "feckless c--t".  Everyone focused on the pejorative reference to the female sexual member of the  "female member of the Administration", as Sanders later described her.  Very little attention was paid to the real point, the "feckless" aspect--and again, I do not want to go there literally, to imagine what is involved with that organ's being truly feckless, but I suspect the word choice had something to do with a similar-sounding adjective suggesting a lack of sexual activity.  Anyway, the point was supposed to be that Ivanka should be using her presumed influence with her classic clueless old fart father, to get him to stop being such a (euphemism alert!) deadhead about the DACA Dreamers, for whom she is believed to be sympathetic.

Bee's comment was wrong on several levels: 1) the presumed influence part--Donald is notoriously hard to persuade about anything, and his view of his daughter is that she is a shiny object which reflects well upon him, nothing more; 2) Ivanka's sympathies clearly take second place to her main objective, which is to exploit her privileged position to make lots of money for the family; and 3) the word choice, as I suggested above, was totally a distraction.  For which Bee apologized.

Should Bee have been fired?  That's an economic decision made by the TV network, for their good or ill.  I know that the career of Kathy Griffin was totally disrupted when she made a joke in bad taste about Drumpf being beheaded (though she is on the rebound).  I will say that George Carlin's "seven words you cannot say on television" are being violated, as Bee did, with great frequency these days;.

 I will not judge the balance of increased freedom vs. decreased civility tested in these cases.  I will say that things are heating up and emotions are high, what with an impending Congressional midterm election that is looking very close (both House and Senate),  with the proposals to remove the protection for pre-existing conditions from the ACA healthcare plans, and with the frenzy about the separation of children from their undocumented parents.  This latter is just another example of the intentional cruelty with which this administration governs, only this time it was exceptionally badly calculated in a political sense.

 

(I apologize for the title, which I had as a subhead for the above. It immediately started appearing all over the mainstream press, which was clearly a coincidence:  it is only too obvious. )

Comments

Ken Added Dec 5, 2018 - 2:19am
Civility wars - in which you talk about a few (out of many) incidents against President Trump, and yet you are constantly uncivil to half of America who voted for him by constantly demeaning him by calling him Drumpf (yes, I know that is the historical german ancestral name, but you are clearly using it as a way to demean).
 
It is a virtual impossibility that Trump will be "removed from office", as even impeachment won't do that.  It requires a 2/3 vote in the senate to convict.  Not going to happen unless something major comes up - and there is no evidence to date that it will.
 
As far as deposing him, a sitting president CANNOT be indicted for any crime, so try to depose him, and find it completely unconstitutional.  Unless there is a crazy ruling from the supreme court, it is solid that a sitting president cannot be deposed, subpoenaed or otherwise forced to testify.  Trump never even had to answer the written questions from Mueller that he went ahead and answered anyway - because in his mind, he did nothing wrong.
Ken Added Dec 5, 2018 - 2:26am
If you want to talk about civility wars, instead of demeaning the office of president, a better point would be made by how the entire press is using the death of 41 as a way to further diminish Trump, as in report after report, article after article, they diminished them both by saying "Bush was classy, unlike blah blah blah" or many other ways they had of simply pointing out how terrible trump is compared to how great GHWB was.
 
And this was a guy who's primary campaign bumper sticker was "Want to annoy the press?  Vote for Bush".
 
They despised him when he was in power, as the despise every republican.  Not one has been "legitimately" elected in decades.  And they never treat democrats like they treat republicans.  It is an absolute travesty that is completely overlooked and ignored.
 
Why?  Because the press decides what is reported and what isn't.
Jim Stoner Added Dec 5, 2018 - 2:33am
The people who voted for him made a mistake, they are not equated with that Dickhead.  
 
I never said Trump would be removed from office by impeachment.  In fact,  I rated it sixth-most likely of the seven ways I could think of that Trumpism would end (in a May, 2018 post ).  Here were the bottom three: 
5. Trump Wins Re-Election, Civilization Crashes, Drumpfsterfire Blazes until Snuffed in Resulting Chaos... (I'd guess late 2022)
6. Trump Is Impeached and Convicted! (could even be in second term)
7. That 25th Amendment Coup-because-Trump-is-Crazy Thing! (Since it didn't already happen...)
 
I do have an 8th one to propose, but aren't I supposed to wait 48 hours between articles? 
 
Yes, Trump did answer the Mueller questions, finally.  When they are finally revealed, they will sound a lot like the sound a mouse makes when first captured by a cat.   
Remember I wrote that six months ago. 
Jim Stoner Added Dec 5, 2018 - 2:59am
I can't recall ever thinking GHW Bush was not legitimately elected, though I do recall quite clearly how Dukakis blew his chance in the '88 debate, with his lame answer to Bernard Shaw's question about capital punishment and his (Dukakis') wife being hypothetically raped and murdered. 
That's not on Bush, though, who was an honorable and friendly man, a fierce competitor (came up off the canvas countless times) and the most expert in foreign and military policy--the actual most important role of the President--probably since Eisenhower.   And, he left when it was time for him to go. 
 
No, I just think Trump should be thankful he's got a couple of days to de-pressurize, in which he's not going to be humiliated or expected to say stupid things in public.  Will he be smart enough to chill, for once, or does it have to be about him, as always?  I hope he can.
Jim Stoner Added Dec 5, 2018 - 3:12am
Of course I am not demeaning the office of President, a singularly powerful and prestigious position deserving the respect of all Americans.   The present office-holder, however, demeans it daily. 
Jim Stoner Added Dec 5, 2018 - 10:34am
Oh, it's at least partly a rant against "our President".   With regard to the current political climate of incivility,  I think it's fair to say "he started it"   And, I thought it would be clear, but the Daily Demeaner (not demeanor) is Trump's Twitter feed.   There's your "puff opinion', which for some reason is treated as an official communication from the White House.
 
I agree with your last paragraph, Mogg Tsur, and feel you have described quite closely what has happened.  The proof, in many ways, is in plain sight, but the disloyal skulking on his behalf has taken some time to uncover.
 
The Presidency is a huge job, a killer, to be honest.  Those who occupy it and treat it with respect, from a sense of public service and duty, and who speak honestly to the American people, have my full regard.   Those who seek it for self-aggrandizement, do not. 
 
Personally, I treat everyone I know with respect.  That goes for here, too, though I don't say the same about all ideas or statements.  
George N Romey Added Dec 5, 2018 - 11:11am
You get caught up in the optics but never understand the reality. Read some books on other Presidents. Away from the public eye they were more corrupt, abrasive, crude, abusive and hateful than Trump could ever be. I’d rather have someone wear it on their sleeve than be a closet case of uncivility and criminality.
Jim Stoner Added Dec 5, 2018 - 12:56pm
George, 
That may be true of some of them; certainly they (most of them) were more profane than they appeared in public. That may be true of Trump, too, but I don't care about that:  his public utterances are "corrupt, abrasive, crude, abusive, and hateful" already.  That hardly seems like a virtue to me. 
michael d zitterman Added Dec 5, 2018 - 2:13pm
And one wonders why we recognize the nation's division.
 
michael zitterman
mikiesmoky@aol.com
George Kocan Added Dec 5, 2018 - 2:28pm
Donald Trump promised a Wall.  No one else did.  He called Hillary a crook.  No one else did.  He wanted to make friends with Vladimir Putin.  Of course, that went against the grain, because Democrats want Trump to start a war with Russia.  Trump said he hates abortion and promised to defund Planned Parenthood (aka Planned Genocide).  He deregulated industry and lowered taxes.  Of course, I support him.  I do not see any credible candidate offering the same. 
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Dec 5, 2018 - 3:00pm
Propaganda repeats over and over again, so it is not even questioned, what is happening in Syria is a "Civil" War.
That is supposed to mean it is being fought only between domestic Syrian factions without outside interference.
 
One Enduring Truth is, ALL WAR is the total abandonment of all notions of basic Human Civility, one with another.
 
The Truth and Reality unfolding in Syria is a developing WORLD WAR with the US, Russia, England, Iran, France, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Israel, their proxies, and other foreign mercenaries.
The mass media still propagates it as a Civil War. The US planned the War within weeks of 9/11.
 
The polarization and lack of Civility that is being entrenched in American society and Politics these days, was foretold in the Book of Daniel written during the captivity of Babylon 2600 years ago recording THE KING'S TERRIFYING NIGHTMARE
 
And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and subdues all things: and as iron that breaks all these, shall it break in pieces
and bruise.
And whereas you saw the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be DIVIDED; but there shall be in it of the STRENGTH OF IRON, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with miry clay.
And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be PARTLY STRONG, and PARTLY BROKEN.
And whereas you saw iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
 
You can use other words, but the Revelation of the details Day by Day, as reported in the News media these Days, are propagating the same General Ideas in that Ancient writing, updated!
Ryan Messano Added Dec 5, 2018 - 3:15pm
Yes, let's talk about civility.  Let's talk about the 639 documented cases of media approved harassment and violence against Trump supporters, shall we? 
 
And let's talk about the hundreds of fake hate crimes the Democrats are responsible for too. 
 
When they aren't out attacking conservatives, they are out committing crimes and trying to lie and say conservatives did them. 
 
Liberalism is a mental illness.  
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Dec 5, 2018 - 3:24pm
As much as Americans have been conditioned to view President Putin as "a murdering thug" because he held a low level KGB position, George H. Bush was Director of the CIA before he was President.
 
As the MSM is Canonizing him as a Saint, like they did with that old War Monger John McCain, they could never acknowledge as CIA Director, he had to be "a murderous thug" at times. It goes with the job and turf.
 
His old boy CIA network colluded with high level KGB cohorts to stage the Yeltsin Coup. I believe this report by F. Willian Engdahl having a chapter 'The Rape of Russia' in his latest book.
 
Now, I think this is a good starting point for our discussion William because in your book, you have a chapter entitled The Rape of Russia, the CIA’s Yeltsin Coup d’état. Why do you talk about rape related to Russia?
 
FWE: What the US Government under George Herbert Walker Bush, Bush Senior organised together with CIA, old boy networks of his, in terms of the breaking up of the Soviet Union and the looting of the assets, this open theft, the destruction of pensions, security, the health system and everything. The only appropriate word is the rape of Russia. They just pondered anything that they could.
 
And what you just read from Mr. Friedman is of course horse rubbish but the real CIA asset of this whole collapse of the Soviet Union in the late 1980s was in fact Boris Yeltsin and the so called Yeltsin Family, the Yeltsin Mafia. And in my book, the Manifest Destiny book I document and detail at great lengths the relation of a handful of KGB very, very senior persons who worked with the Bush Senior old boys CIA networks in the West and their banks to create a group of oligarchs around Yeltsin, you know the famous Russian oligarchs, well, The New York Times and other Western Media portrayed them as Russian Mafia. They were kind of mafia but the real point was that they were a CIA-run mafia. They were run by the West. They betrayed their own country, their own people and literally stole billions and billions and billions of dollars of assets. And that’s the reason for the title in that chapter.
Jim Stoner Added Dec 5, 2018 - 3:42pm
Ray Joseph Cormier,  you started talking about civility but have gone way off topic.  I won't block you yet, but this thread is not about Boris Yeltsin, Putin, or that obscure Daniel prophecy from the Bible.  I hope that's clear. 
Mogg Tsur, I would agree that all human perception is subjective.  That's what makes good communication so important, as we can grow by sharing of our perspectives.  It does require a willingness to listen, or at least, to observe. 
Ryan,  I won't say that "conservatism", or even "religion", are mental illnesses (even if I may feel that way sometimes).  I disagree that liberalism is harmful, violent, or unjust; it is fundamentally about free speech and tolerance.  That being said, it is an old label which has drawn many distorted connotations in today's society. 
Ryan Messano Added Dec 5, 2018 - 3:49pm
Oh Wow!! The Google fascists are really good now.  They have changed their algorithm to where even when I know an article on the Democrats and communism exists, I can no longer find it on the first five pages of Google results.  It used to pop up on the first page when I typed in 'communism, Democrats, WND'.  Incredible.  And you liberals are so badly suckered and don't even know it.  
 
Still found it because I remembered the authors name was the genius, David Kupelian.  
 
 
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Dec 5, 2018 - 4:10pm
Mogg Tsur, I didn't see the MSM accusing Bush, as head of the CIA did anything to count him a murdering thug either.
 
What I was suggesting is, as head of the CIA, Bush also made decisions that resulted in assignations, and coups, that resulted in deaths. That's it! That's all! It goes with the job.
 
We already know about rendition, kidnappings and black torture sites used by the CIA.
 
As to the interview with Willian Engdahl, unless you follow the link to read or listen to the video, you might not expect much objectivity or complete honesty, but you would find it if you read the report. Then discuss if you want to.
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Dec 5, 2018 - 4:15pm
Jim Stoner, I respect this is your article, but my comment you object to was addressed to Moog Tsur introducing the topic of George H. Bush, and I responded to that. It all has to do with Civility, especially the Daniel part as I describe it.
Not My Brother's Keeper Added Dec 5, 2018 - 4:30pm
“The people who voted for him made a mistake, they are not equated with that Dickhead.”
 
Nope. And on the contrary we’re as happy as clams and thrilled to the core that we are the sole benefactors and merciful reason for Queen Hillary’s epic de-throning. 
 
That’s right. And you’re welcome, America.
Not My Brother's Keeper Added Dec 5, 2018 - 4:31pm
America avoided a national catastrophe with the election of Trump. And the establishment fallout since the election has been nothing shy of epic, too! Not to mention remarkably entertaining!
The grand side-effect that no one really saw coming has come in the form of the hysterical Leftist-retrogressives and their willingness  to expose themselves and their natural penchant for violence and totalitarianism.
Indeed a truly beautiful and amazing sight to behold!
 
Keep in mind it’s not Trump, the man himself, who the Left despises with such fervent passion but rather it’s America (and representational democracy) the Left HATES infinitely more, i.e., what America stands for, its history, its wealth, its freedom, its constitution, its capitalist economy and economic prowess over much of the world, etc., etc. 
And again, more than the seething, blood-shooting-from-the-eyeballs animus for Trump himself, it’s those of us who support, defend and voted for him whom they really, Really, REALLY hate. 
 
But hey I don’t care. Trumps going nowhere and will likely be re-elected in 2020. 
And, going forward, if the slimey bureaucrats in D.C. are somehow under the tragically false impression that they’re gonna be remotely successful at circumventing democracy and silencing the voices of 63 million American voters by removing OUR president from office under ANY particular guise or circumstances, well they simply have no idea of the ire and subsequent carnage that awaits and will surely ensue as a direct result of their insolence, and sheer stupidity. 
 
Far as “civility”, when McStain brought Palin into the national spotlight as his VP pick in 08”, the self-proclaimed “arbiters of tolerance” immediately took to Twitter to let us all know that “Palin and her young daughters should all be gang-raped”.
And these are the same mouth-breathing, troglodytic window-lickers who have the audacity to refer to Donald Trump as a “vulgarian”???
Lol, yeah...right. 
George N Romey Added Dec 5, 2018 - 4:39pm
So you'd rather give your money to a Bernie Madoff type.  Real smooth and polite in public.  Says nice things that me him appear intelligent and capable of investing your money.  Refrains from bad mouthing others.   But in the end he's sticking it to you good with nice words and a smile on his face.  Kinda of like Obama too.
 
I'll take bluntness every time.
Carole McKee Added Dec 5, 2018 - 5:06pm
Funny how any time someone speaks badly of trump, out come the pseudo-correct individuals complaining about your disrespect. This never happened during the Bush administration, or the Obama admikn. Not the Clinton or the older Bush admin., In fact, it has never been antything like now, when you can't voice your negative opinion without the trump vigilantes coming out after you.  Why protect him? Shouldn't he be man enough to allow criicism? Man enough to take it? Apparently his miions don't think so, so they go to battle to defend him. Personally, I respect the office of the presidency--just not this president. Respect is earned. 
 
JS: I like your phrase, "depose Trump" but I prefer "lock him up." It's not bad to say that, is it? I mean, the followers in his cult used the phrase quite often. So it must be okay.
 
Now this is my opiunion. I choose not to argue with any of the trump allies or defend my thought. You cannot debate, argue, or discuss anything with anyone who is so close-minded and only gets his news from FoxNews. My opinion is they all may not have lost their marbles, but there is definitely a hole in the bag.
 
 
Jim Stoner Added Dec 5, 2018 - 5:30pm
Carole,  I agree with you, you are not alone--don't be shy about sharing your opinions.   Trump will not be locked up during his term in office, but afterwards....?  Something along that line will be the subject of my next article. 
 
George R. - To the extent a President leads in setting the tone of public discourse, it does matter whether he/she is coarse and personally insulting in public.  The thing about Madoff's shtick is that it was too good to be true and people bought into his con.  Skepticism with regard to all politicians is wise. 
Speaking of being conned....
 
To the "happy as clams" folk:  Best of luck relying on this guy to help your lives.  I am too familiar with him (over decades) to believe he intends it, but if he accidentally helps (and you are not caught in his web of corruption), more power to you. 
 
Dirty Bird Added Dec 5, 2018 - 5:33pm

Jim,
If you wanted to appear to be an even handed critic of our POTUS, you failed, miserably, and I suspect on purpose. Your slightly above average grasp of the language doesn't camouflage your obvious contempt for our President.
 
Your obsequious (insincere) attempt to offer both sides of an issue is lame at best, disingenuous in truth.
 
You might consider that broken down actor's comment as a desperate attempt to gain lost attention and reclaim fame. He's not offered a decent performance in decades and the movies he's been in the last couple of years are virtual porn.
 
As for the American people having made a “mistake”, you are well off the reservation on that count as well. The arrogance of the DNC, Clinton campaign, and the other left-wing progressives, to steal the nomination and then present Clinton as their serious nominee was just too much for the American people to tolerate. She is probably the only candidate that Trump could have beaten. It was a gift. More people voted against her than for Trump, IMV.
 
Now I'm quite pleased with the majority of Trump's policies and actions. However, like many, I think his tweets, while making the head's explode for many on the left – which is entertaining to say the least, are on net, a negative and if he (his advisers) don't stifle his tweeter, will continue forcing him to swim upstream. What you on the left are apparently unable to comprehend is that these tweets are there exactly to make your heads explode, they have no substance in government polices or legislation. The latter of which are making America Great Again in all the substantive ways that matter – except for progressives.
 
You might think the election was close, but you'd be mistaken again, gravely and fatally mistaken. The 2.2M more individual votes she collected can be accounted for in three counties in NY. Of the entire counties in the US, she collected a grand total of 16% vs. Trump's 84% of the total. And, as you might have heard, Electoral votes are where the action is in POTUS elections.
 
Turns out “fly-over country” matters! Who knew? The Clinton's certainly didn't, neither did her campaign or the rotted DNC.
 
I thought the left, after the disastrous and humiliating loss, would have retreated to their lairs to lick their wounds and figure out what happened.
 
However, the conduct of the left since their Waterloo is clear evidence they haven't learned a thing, certainly nothing of consequence. And, since those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it, can look forward to another shellacking in 2020.
 
Jim Stoner Added Dec 5, 2018 - 5:59pm
D.B.  I thank you for your comments and your half-hearted compliment. 
I wouldn't pretend to be fair-minded with regard to Trump--my mind was made up long ago. I was trying to be fair-minded about the degree to which these public incidents offending Trump and some Trumpistas were appropriate or not, in the context of the deteriorated level of public discourse which Trump himself has fostered. 
 
I am a resident of "fly-over country" and I can tell you that support for Trump personally, and for Trump's actions, is far from unanimous here.  In this rural county, over 70% voted against him in 2016.  
 
I disagree about whether lessons have been learned by the opposition.  I think it will be a rough road, but we are in good shape to give Trumpism a comprehensive electoral defeat in 2020, if it comes to that. 
 
I disregard your arguments undermining the idea that Trump failed to win a plurality of votes in 2016, yet I recognize that is not the measure of victory.   We lost--in my view, we ALL lost (all people in America, and elsewhere).
 
Oh, and it was definitely a close election--I calculated that if 70,000 votes switched over to Hillary in four states (WI, MI, PA, FL), she would have won an Electoral College victory as large as Trump's was.  
 
I participate in some opinion poll panels, and one question that is asked frequently is:  "Do you think Trump should continue to use Twitter?"  That's one of those rare ones that I answer, 'Don't know".  He reveals a lot (way too much, actually) about his thinking through it, which can be useful for supporters and opponents alike, but it does cause harm. 
Jim Stoner Added Dec 5, 2018 - 6:22pm
A couple of comments: 
Mogg, I don't think there has been a truly 'LLD' President in my lifetime (or even before).  The closest, FDR (before my time), and Obama, were center-left and did more than any other Presidents to preserve (!) our free market economy structure. 
I  accept your point about dehumanizing Trump, but I certainly don't conflate the man and the office.   He's just the temporary occupant of it, and not at all typical. 
 
And, with regard to some other comment (NMBK):  Though I don't accept the "left" label with all the connotations you give it, I will answer for "them" with my view:  I love America deeply and generally don't associate Trump or his policies with my view of what America is all about. 
(I will use Brian Mulroney's words today to describe it:  'The greatest democratic republic mankind has ever devised. ' Sorry if the quote is imperfect)
I think our nation is better than those policies, or than Trump. If we repeat the mistake of 2016 and re-elect him, I might reconsider that distinction. 
Jim Stoner Added Dec 5, 2018 - 6:52pm
did more than any other Presidents to preserve (!) our free market economy structure. 
I should correct that and say "other recent Presidents".  I'd rate Teddy Roosevelt above these two on that scale. 
Jim Stoner Added Dec 5, 2018 - 7:08pm
"...a significant fraction" - yes, it's 46/100.  He's the President for the 46%, and he acts like it ALL THE TIME.  And, I emphasize "acts"--it's all performance for him.   He impersonates his concept of what a Donald Trump Presidency should be.  Today, it was "acting Presidential". Anyway, all his political appeal is directed to the 46% and the rest can go pound sand. You know it's true.  
"underserved insult" - sorry, whoever got insulted.   Maybe intelligence, as the comment that he is "temporary" seems unnecessary, as all Presidents until now (even FDR) knew they were temporary.  This one, well, to be honest, a lot of us doubt that he does. 
Ray Joseph Cormier Added Dec 5, 2018 - 7:57pm
Moog wrote, Keeper, hasn't the Left made President Trump the face of rude, lying, misogynistic, elite who have risen on the backs of others and through no effort of their own?
 
As a Canadian not affected by Republican-Democratic partisanship and animosity, I could see from here Trump is a rude, lying, misogynistic, elite who have risen on the backs of others and through no effort of their own? The Left didn't make him that way. They can see it. His blind faith devotees can't.
 
@ Not My Brother's Keeper
What you are saying is the Trump people will react much like the Russian speaking majority in Crimea and East Ukraine bordering Russia, who voted for the Russian friendly government before the US orchestrated Coup d'Etat/regime change putting to power a rabid Neo-Nazi anti-Russian government.
 
Reading your comment confirms I have been right telling people for many years, the circumstances are coming together that will cause a stream of Americans to seek Refugee Status in CanaDa to escape crazy, American style, home grown terrorism.
Jim Stoner Added Dec 5, 2018 - 10:39pm
Well, at least Canada has developed a sound approach to visa-based immigration, so all they have to worry about is that southern border.  I don't think it will be a "wall" situation; they're too smart for that, and they only need to house the US refugees for some indefinite (but temporary) period--something like they did in the '70's (which dragged into the '80's for some).  But we are off topic! 
 
What I meant to say was, I'm more partial to Italy for my refuge. I think I need to go there next spring to scout for locations....just in case.  Market says Trump has 40% chance of winning re-election; the incumbent advantage is nothing to sneeze at. 
 
 I see the rest of the world takes our President very seriously  -- as a general rule, that's true.  This one, sometimes yes, sometimes no. Obviously he has the power to cause them great harm, but they laugh at him, sometimes to his face.  Did you miss the MBS/Putin high-five? We should be proud of our contributions to global culture (at least, some), but they were sharing their pleasure that Trump is too compromised to be a threat to their murderous plotting.
 
We are better than just "Game of Thrones" with advanced weapons (and no dragons).   And yes, our nation can be better than our policies:  when our policies are dragging the country down.  We are not going forward, except by the calendar.  
 
I'll check in tomorrow late morning; thanks to all commenters!  I think I'll hold the next Trump article and shift to one on movies next.  i haven't seen anything here about that since I joined. 
Eric D Beyer Added Dec 6, 2018 - 12:17am
I won't comment on the third incident, but the first one with DiNeros comment. Maybe their connections to New York City gives mr.D an insight to the President that most of us do not have.
     The restaurant incident, if I was conducting a business I would not refuse any paying customer especially for political views. Maybe if someone came in naked or some other outlandish behavior then I would refuse service. But a bunch of suits, no, not unless they were belligerent and disturbing other customers.
Ward Tipton Added Dec 6, 2018 - 1:09am
Just an interesting sidenote, among the Brits, it is common for the seemingly sexual, derogatory terms for the female anatomy to be utilized as offenses for both males and females, thus, a feckless c**t or merely a tw@t would be equally representative of both male and female. It may not be "politically correct" and certainly not civil, but it is not restricted merely to a derogatory observation of the female members of society.
 
Civility in politics? Hahahahahahahahahahahaha
 
Oh wait. Were you being serious?
Cullen Kehoe Added Dec 6, 2018 - 1:18am
So is the author saying the Left has been uncivil? It's a little hard to tell. 
 
Substitute the F word for "depose" then what DeNiro said was fine? 
 
Maybe Sanders should have been seated in the restaurant, just give her the worst table? 
 
Maybe Samantha Bee shouldn't have been fired (but maybe she should have chosen her words a little differently)? 
Cullen Kehoe Added Dec 6, 2018 - 1:21am
What I'll say is the most of this actually helps Trump in the long run.
 
If you're an actor and getting an award for acting, maybe consider saying "thanks".
 
Harassing members of the Trump Administration in public...this sort of hasn't happened since the leadup to the Civil War. It's unheard of. It pushes sympathetic people INTO Trump's camp. 
 
Attacking his daughter, again, same. 
Jim Stoner Added Dec 6, 2018 - 2:24am
Cullen, thanks for the questions or statements in the two comments.  My answers to them are as follows, in order; 
Yes
The other way around--substitute "depose" for the F-word
Serve her like any other customer, then at the end say, "Aren't you Sarah Huckabee Sanders?" loud enough for most to hear. And smile. 
Yes. (Bee was not fired, but she is only on TBS, so....)
That was one of my main points. (not effective)
He wasn't getting an award; DeNiro was introducing the nominees ("presenting the award")
I would say public, politically violent behavior was very much present in the Reconstruction period, too. Not to mention all the assassinations.  This was much milder than any of that. People who are sympathetic already don't need to be pushed that much; however, it could give them an excuse (like supporting Trump because people who are snobby don't like him?) . 
 
Yes, that was a mistake.  I feel shock comedy has a short shelf-life because it derives its humor from the departure from standards, but the standards are always changing.  And I didn't find it funny then. But Ivanka, in general, is "fair game"--she is a White House counsel (or was, anyway) and an adult.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Carole McKee Added Dec 6, 2018 - 10:14am
Cullen: You think it was wtong to attack trump's daughter? She's an adult who established herself in the White House and in the administation. How did you feel about the unkind remarks that were made about the Obama daughters? They were children.
Even A Broken Clock Added Dec 6, 2018 - 12:09pm
Jim - It certainly seems that you have disturbed the hornet's nest with this post. What I find interesting in discussions like this is how those who are supporters of the current occupant of the White House find it necessary to bring up examples of incivility from the (supposed) left, but then discount any evidence that their side actually has incited violence and incivility in droves. What does seem to have happened, is that the current environment has brought out incivility among nearly everyone. Things are just so much worse now than they were back when G.H.W. Bush was President.
 
I myself believe that the door to incivility was kicked open by the advent of conservative talk radio in the late '80's, and the door was propped open after Newt Gingrich and his band of merry men took over Congress in the '94 election. Ever since then, compromise has become a dirty word. Politics used to be the art of the possible. Now it seems it is the fortress of the fanatical, and I see no sign of that changing. Unless and until some external event causes people to realize that we have much more in common than we have things that divide us.
Ward Tipton Added Dec 6, 2018 - 12:52pm
Yeah, because the KKK was never political ... and not formed until the late eighties ... probably Rush Limbaugh had a hand in that? 
opher goodwin Added Dec 6, 2018 - 1:19pm
I don't know - I think public figures are fair game. I quite like Fuck Trump. It's succinct, clear and sums up a host of feelings.
In terms of WB - well I don't mind strong arguing or language. I would like there to be some relevance, engagement and rational argument. IMV reciting propaganda and religious tracts is neither intelligent nor engaging.
I like trading passionate thoughts with people who think differently. When it gets into personal stuff it is pointless.
Ward Tipton Added Dec 6, 2018 - 2:16pm
The very idea of you and trump nekket (Naked for you that are limited to more "modern" English) ... I really need some eye bleach. 
Jeff Michka Added Dec 6, 2018 - 5:54pm
Gee, Mogg the Turd, you have no problem lyng or stretching the truth when it suits you,  Alway talking how cryptofascists like you "the LEFT to prevent "us" being known as traditional patriotic Americans, is simple:  You aren't, and it's more laughable talking about "civility" when all you do is delete to try and control your generally bullshit threads.  Go and plot with your pard, Lyin Ryan on how you'll get rid of "liberals" on WB.  Your actions have said you are all in favor of shouting down and silencing opposition.  Real patriot.  LOL
Cullen Kehoe Added Dec 6, 2018 - 7:51pm
@Carole -- Who attacked the Obama girls? Did a comic with her own TV show?
Jeff Michka Added Dec 6, 2018 - 7:56pm
Does it matter, Keyhole?  And why should Carole have to answer your "question?"
Jim Stoner Added Dec 6, 2018 - 10:19pm
EABC:  That was what I wanted to do; I intentionally selected incidents of incivility from "the Left" (at least, anti-Trump) and used provocative  language in the article, but ultra-friendly in response to comments.  The result was actually very manageable. 
 
I believe that Trumpism must be combatted on all fronts.  There is the high road, the low road, the passive-aggressive approach, the leaning forward approach.  Democrats are too independent-minded to stick to only one, but there should be minimal questions about the objectives this time (if there were some last time). 
 
Jeff M., thanks for joining in. 
Ward:  Yeah, but what about Trump and my avatar, rolling around together in the mud?  I think it has real potential, animated. 
Ken Added Dec 6, 2018 - 11:40pm
The people who voted for him made a mistake, they are not equated with that Dickhead. 
 
What an interesting first response where you complain about civility..
Jim Stoner Added Dec 7, 2018 - 12:36am
Mogg,  I have to leave it to your imagination for now, but I am going to address--separately--your observation about hat-wearing.
 
.  You equate Nabokov with Attila and Benedict Arnold?  Bizarre. 
 
Ken,  I had to make the distinction emphatic from the outset.  It's not easy to make clear communication with such a disparate group. 
 
Sorry about the explicit name-calling; I've become accustomed to that visceral reaction every time I see it. 
Carole McKee Added Dec 7, 2018 - 12:49am
Cullen:  Who attacked the Obama girls? Did a comic with her own TV show? No. It was members of the Republican party. 
 
I believe comics have made it a point of making fun of each and every president any way they could, since...well, probably since forever. The Presidents always just took it, ignored it, and didn't bother to retaliate. People who heard the comics either laughed or clucked their tongues. But not with this current one. If he hears it he sends out a nasty tweet in retaliation. His followers get outraged. Why? A grown man should be able to shrug it off. If his followers believed he was a grown man capable of his own defense, they wouldn't get so outraged. I guess they know that they are defending the fat boy with a mental problem, who isn't capable of standing on his own two feet. 
 
As far as the language being used by SB and RD? I'm not fond of it, but bad language seems to be more common now than ever before. But I'll bet if Samantha Bee had said that about Hillary, the entire trump cult would be saying, "Yeah! That's right! Lock her up!" Then, the uncouth word wouldn't have been a big deal. Or if she had said that about Michelle Obama, the cult would have been fine with it. 
 
And I'll just bet if RD had said F*** Obama, that would have been okay. How many of the cult have said that anyway? It's just this unnatural defense of trump that I find weird. It's like he's a handicapped child and the cult is his mother trying to protect him.
Ward Tipton Added Dec 7, 2018 - 2:19am
"Ward:  Yeah, but what about Trump and my avatar, rolling around together in the mud?  I think it has real potential, animated. "
 
Having never put lipstick on any of my pigs, I cannot say it is something I have ever spent considerable time thinking about. When I think about pigs, I tend to think about hams, bacon and pork roasts with sweet potato pie. 
 
Asking me to consider trump nekket in any aspect is likely to cause me to lose my appetite ... bestiality ... meh ... never considered that concept very much either ... just never had any appeal for me. So, perhaps there is potential ... but not something I would personally envision ... 
John Minehan Added Dec 7, 2018 - 8:23pm
"Next, the Incident at Red Hen, the restaurant in Lexington, Virginia . . . ."
 
I spent 4 years in Lexington, VA.  Considering where I spent them, I don't have much experience with fine dining in its environs.  However, I recommend Frank's King of Pizza for its piazza and calzones.
Ward Tipton Added Dec 8, 2018 - 1:39am
Would love good calzones but I have not even had beef in nearly a decade. Food is about the only thing I really miss from the US. That being said, those restaurants in DC used to pay us Seventeen bucks each for an "organically raised, free-range" rabbit. I can only imagine what they were charging their customers ... and that was back in the early seventies. 
Thomas Napers Added Dec 8, 2018 - 3:42am
In regards to your take on the Red Hen incident, I’m sure one party was Red Hen restaurant, who was the second party that should have “discreetly” handled the situation?
 
In regards to civility, it’s legal to be uncivil in one’s language.  So I have no problem with what DeNiro did or what the cast of Hamilton did.  Where I have a problem is when the Left invades our right to privacy.  We should be allowed to eat at restaurants without being yelled at.  I also take issue when the Left resorts to riots when they don’t get their way. 
Carole McKee Added Dec 8, 2018 - 11:09am
Thomas Napers: Where I have a problem is when the Left invades our right to privacy.  We should be allowed to eat at restaurants without being yelled at.  I agree. I'm sure the LGBTQ community would agree, too. As would the Afro-Americans and the Latinos. These groups are constantly dealing with nasty people who verbally attack them in public places. But one incident involving Mitch McConnell and another involving Sarah Huckabee Sanders is an outrage to the Republican party. 
 
And what riots might you be referring to? Riots that start when a cop kills a black kid in cold blood and then gets acquitted? Or are you referring to the incident when the people were protesting and a car deliberately smashed into them, causing an uproar? I suppose you think it's fine when white supremacists march through the streets chanting threats to Jews, blacks, Latinos, and Middle Easterners. Or when the KKK holds a rally. The former groups just want justice and fairness. The latter groups want to wipe out the population that is different from what they are. The terrible part of this is we now have a rotten president who defends them and encourages them.
Dirty Bird Added Dec 8, 2018 - 12:08pm
Carole, you conveniently left out the riots, destruction of property and attacking people who go to a venue to listen to a conservative speaker by your fascist group calling itself "Antifa" - a joke if I ever heard one. That's like the KKK calling itself anti-racists.... I understand their need for violence - they have no viable arguments to make or any support for what they stand for so they must shut down others.
 
I think the news, recent events in the medial, on TV, etc. amply provide all the evidence necessary to support the argument that the left (not traditional Democrats) has been, and continues to be, as nasty and rotten as any political movement, including the skinheads, white supremacists and the KKK.   
Carole McKee Added Dec 8, 2018 - 12:38pm
Dirty Bird: No, I didn't conveniently leave out the riots, destuction of property and attacking people...etc. I was responding to Thomas Napers. He referred to the riots as the Left. You are referring to the riots where many African Americans rioted for what they throught was wrong. So are you saying, or do you believe, that all people who riot are Leftists? That all Black people are Leftists?  Meaning Extreme Democrats? Is this what you are implying?
 
And what news? FoxNews? Or have you seen some punk kid harrassing a woman and just assume he's a registered Democrat? It's easy to spot KKK. They wear those white robes with pointy hats. I can't say I've ever just looked at a person and decided he/she was either a Democrat or a Republican.
Dirty Bird Added Dec 8, 2018 - 1:02pm
I'm suggesting that outside of the skinheads, White Supremacists; which are tiny, ultra fringe groups that nobody supports, the riots are perpetrated by leftists - are you telling me that inner city blacks are Republicans??? Are you suggesting that Antifa are Trump supporters, that they like Ben Shapiro to name one.
Charlottesville would have been a nothing-burger had Antifa not come looking for a riot. Those idiots would had their walk, talked to themselves and gone home deflated. 
The left, as they did in '68, sponsor riots and excuse it because their snowflakes are so frustrated that nobody takes them seriously...
Carole McKee Added Dec 8, 2018 - 1:11pm
NO, I'm not saying, nor believing, that inner city kids are Republican. But I'm willing to bet that most of them, if not all of them, have never registered to vote, and have never picked a party. You can't call a person a Democrat or a Republican if the person hasn't registered to be one or the other. So why would you assume that they are Democrats?
 
The funny part of all of it is calling trump a Republican. He ran on that ticket, but he is an opportunist. He was a Democrat, and then an Independent, at one time. He's only GOP in name only. The party he works for is himself. 
George N Romey Added Dec 8, 2018 - 2:45pm
My problem is that the media takes an incident and blows it out of proportion. Supposedly there’s a KKK or Russian spy in every corner. All minorities are downtrodden because of white males.  Anything bad that happens supposedly is the fault of Trump. I give kudos that Trump has the mentality that bad shit happens and it’s not my fault. Much better than politicians with their empty talking points memo.
 
 
Jim Stoner Added Dec 8, 2018 - 5:19pm
Carole, Are you saying, as a Republican, that Trump is not one? 
He sure seems to think he is, these days.  You can either have him, or not, but we sure don't want him.  The 2020 primary campaign for the GOP should be about that question, and no other.   By then (end of next year), he will have a very fat (war)chest and big legal problems, based on extrapolation of current trends. 
 
DB: I did not intend this to be a forum for discussion of actual physical public violence in the US, but we can go there if we must.  I am against all of it, with the fuzzy lines being about the right of self-defense.  Best is to have approved demonstrations in pubic, with law enforcement able to settle things if necessary.  That in itself reduces the likelihood of violence.  When demonstrations are not permitted, though, it is an unusual and dangerous situation. 
 
Charlottesville:  As I recall the RWNJ's got permission to march en masse--somebody needs to answer for that.  The police were criticized for a laissez-faire approach; they didn't do their job right. Obviously, the violent episodes deserve legal punishment, and some of those are occurring.   The Antifa groups deserve criticism if they didn't ask for permission to assemble, and if they were denied, that is a problem.   There are plenty of open spaces around the city, though the RWNJ's apparently were able to cop the best spots (around the Univ.)
As it happens, I was about 25 miles away that day, grooving with a couple of other oldies bands at an outdoor venue before a mixed crowd.  We had a great time; it was a beautiful August day (the rain held off).. 
 
My main beef is on behalf of the people of Charlottesville.  At one time I knew the place very well, and from what I can see, it has gotten much bigger and better since then.  They didn't ask for this stain on their name.   
Carole McKee Added Dec 8, 2018 - 10:19pm
Stoner: trump ran as a Republican. He switched parties to do so. I don't want him! I think he is the biggest piece of shit to ever cross the threshold of the White House. When I see the image of his ugliness anywhere, all I can hope for are the three I's. Impeach--indict--incarcerate. 
Jim Stoner Added Dec 9, 2018 - 10:59pm
Amen, Carole.