David Attenborough?? Is he right??

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Is David Attenborough a shill for the global elite?

 

Is he simply misguided?

 

Or does he, after spending a lifetime working with nature, know what he’s talking about?

 

David says that we are facing the greatest threat for thousands of years. He states that the planet is warming. That this warming is so extreme that it will lead to the collapse of civilisation and the extinction of the natural world.

 

There will stronger and stronger storms. Droughts, floods, heatwaves, changes in air and sea currents, extreme weather and freezing winters.

 

Ice caps will melt leading to the rising of sea levels by tens of metres that will put our cities and fertile land under water. Low-lying countries will disappear altogether. Wildlife will be decimated. It will lead to mass migrations, starvation and the breakdown of civilisation.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/global/video/2018/dec/03/continuation-of-civilisation-is-in-your-hands-attenborough-tells-world-leaders-video

 

NASA provides an excellent course module on the science of global warming.

climate change(Source: NASA)

climate change

CO2 is now the highest it has been for 3 million years.

 

According to the UN report we now have just 12 years to get these carbon dioxide levels down or we face catastrophe.

 

Are the UN being alarmist?

 

So is NASA lying?

 

Is Attenborough a dupe?

 

Or is global warming a real and terrible threat?

Comments

opher goodwin Added Dec 11, 2018 - 5:36am
It seems to me that this issue has become political and tribal. It needs to be looked at more objectively.
Bill Kamps Added Dec 11, 2018 - 6:26am
opher, regardless of the science, I dont think we are politically capable of lowering the Earth's temp in some reasonable way, quickly.
 
In the US we cant fix our infrastructure, and everyone on all sides of the politics agree it needs to be done.  It is technically feasible, relies on no other countries, and we can afford to do it.  Politically we just havent. 
 
To suggest that we could lower the Earth's temp, which is complex, requires the cooperation of many countries, and costs a large unknown amount of money, seems beyond our abilities right now.
 
You folks in the UK cant even figure out how to deal with the EU.  This also is a solvable problem but politically  it is a massive struggle. 
 
Until we show that we can solve problems we understand, we probably should not be spending trillions trying to solve problems we dont fully understand regardless of their emergency nature.  If the politicians every fully get hold of climate change, they will ruin the economy and our lives, in the name of fixing something they dont understand.  They of course will exempt themselves from any of the inconveniences they push on the rest of us.
opher goodwin Added Dec 11, 2018 - 7:00am
Bill - I am afraid I don't agree with you on many points.
Firstly - there is general agreement throughout the world (apart from the USA) that something needs doing
Secondly - we do have the means to reduce our CO2 output. We have a whole raft of green technology.
Thirdly - it is not going to cost the earth
Bill Kamps Added Dec 11, 2018 - 7:13am
opher, the Paris accords were a sham, they exempted China which has the highest growing CO2 levels, they exempted the third world, which has rapidly increasing CO2 levels, and which will increase even faster in the future.
 
We are also not CERTAIN how much CO2 we need to cut, or what the costs will be.  Not as certain as when we build a bridge, and those projects often have massive cost overruns.   We are talking about the same leaders that cant do simple things today without massive cost overruns and we are going to ask them to spend trillions to lower the Earth's temp?  what a boondoggle that will be, all the while exempting China. 
 
You really are quite the optimist. 
Bill Kamps Added Dec 11, 2018 - 7:16am
The US, even without being in the Paris accords is doing quite a lot, for various reasons.  We have stop building coal plants, unlike China and India, and the renewable energy generation is growing quite rapidly . While CO2 levels are still growing, they are growing much more slowly than China, India and the third world.
Stone-Eater Added Dec 11, 2018 - 7:24am
Oph
 
I think we have bigger problems than that never-ending global warming stuff. For example:
 
1. The looming threat of WWIII by the US and their allies who are provoking the rest of the world without end in need of resources
2. The holy grail of "progress" which causes the unrestricted materialism and consumerism (-> global warming effect)
3. The hunger and overpopulation (wrong concentration of masses of people in cities due partly to 2. and the methods of production)
4. The agenda of dumbing down the population by mass media
5. The return of extreme religiosity of no-matter-wich-faith partly due to insecurity and future angst of the populations due to loss of jobs and security.
 
It's all tied together but that "global warming" can't be solved without considering the above, and without a fundamental change in life philosophy.
Stone-Eater Added Dec 11, 2018 - 7:30am
Bill
 
You folks in the UK cant even figure out how to deal with the EU.  This also is a solvable problem but politically  it is a massive struggle. 
 
Not only the UK. Take Germany and France and the others as well. That club was created by telling the people it would have a humanist approach but in reality, as we found out, was just a "combine and rule" creation to ensure to keep NATO and the West together ... IMHO. Glad we Swiss had, due to our political system, the chance to say YES or NO for joining, and after reflecting some, we said NO:
opher goodwin Added Dec 11, 2018 - 7:45am
Bill - I am an optimist - but I am also a pragmatist. You can't begin to make things better if you continue making them worse.
China is coming on board. They are churning out huge numbers of solar panels and wind turbines. They know they have to act. The USA is the odd one out. They should be in there setting an example rather than staying out and setting the wrong example.
Alternative energy is becoming cheaper and cheaper and more and more efficient. The excuse of it being too expensive or unrealistic is no longer valid. Regardless of anything it is affordable and a cheap non-polluting energy source for the future.
Because of the intermittency it may never be possible to be 100% (though I think it can easily be - using hydroelectric and storage) but even if it reduces it by half it will have an impact.
It seems to me that if one is faced with a catastrophe one has to act.
I just hope the USA gets more involved and takes a leading role. We need more developments to make it more efficient - particularly regarding storage.
opher goodwin Added Dec 11, 2018 - 7:45am
Stone - the biggest problem is overpopulation!
Stone-Eater Added Dec 11, 2018 - 7:58am
Oph
 
1. Overpopulation in cities is a direct result of a) religious ignorance and b) the destruction of rural work possibilities in the agricultural sector (Monsanto and monocultures only one example) and the drive into cities. And btw. Growth is exponential. It's impossible to curb artificially. When having 10 kids give a better chance that 2 of them get a job to feed the whole family, a father won't stay with two....
 
2. What happens when the US takes a leading role we have seen in the last 40 years. Just look at the Middle East. Leading roles have to be reserved for countries in the region where they are - FOR that region. Why ? Because they know their people and culture and can guarantee peace a lot better than the stranger who walks in and can take over just because he has more muscles. That never lasts.
George N Romey Added Dec 11, 2018 - 8:06am
As Bill has indicated getting the US government to do anything of matter ain't gonna happen anytime soon.  Then already as said are developing or less developed countries that aren't going to go along.  India is a "shithole" whether it sounds pc or not.  They have zero desire to change their culture and control what population growth is doing to this world.  Moreover, most of these countries as SEF has indicated hate western culture.  The US has tried to bomb them in compliance and even that doesn't work.
 
The real answer is only when the world is in a crisis as it was in WW2 will you see nations coming together, and even that would be far from a given.  Human beings despite all the tales of boogeymen and man eating tigers are their own worst enemy.  
Stone-Eater Added Dec 11, 2018 - 8:21am
George
 
Moreover, most of these countries as SEF has indicated hate western culture. 
 
I beg to differ :-) They don't hate Western culture, if not, they wouldn't have dullphones, eat Western food, hip hop in Hindi or Persian or Arab and do their own thing. I'm sure there's "India's got talent" as well for exampleLOL
 
WHAT they hate is that the West behaves arrogantly....and calls them "shitholes". I mean, Detroit's suburbs are shitholes too, for example. So are Paris' banlieues........
Dino Manalis Added Dec 11, 2018 - 8:47am
 I doubt it, but we should always be careful with our environment and make healthy adjustments.
Ryan Messano Added Dec 11, 2018 - 8:49am
'E's off 'is rocker, like all liberals. 
Ryan Messano Added Dec 11, 2018 - 8:50am
Not one conservative has graced this post with a comment.  Fitting.  200 years from now, they will look back and try to understand who were the Chicken Little nutters who believed in the climate change fairytale.
Bill Kamps Added Dec 11, 2018 - 9:20am
China is coming on board. They are churning out huge numbers of solar panels and wind turbines.
 
Seriously ?  they are also building a lot of new coal plans.  Currently 256 gigawatts of coal burning plants are under construction.  They will be commissioning a new plant every week.  The US has none under construction.  Who is really on board here?
 
Yes they are building solar panels for business reasons, not because they are trying to switch to renewables. 
 
You say you are pragmatic, then you ignore what is really going on.
Bill Kamps Added Dec 11, 2018 - 9:41am
opher just to keep that in perspective, the UK has about 65 gigawatts of electric generation.  So China is adding about 5 UK worth of coal plants.  Until China stops building new coal plants, you have no hope of reducing CO2 emissions. 
Stone-Eater Added Dec 11, 2018 - 10:13am
Oph
 
There is a bug in this thread....
George N Romey Added Dec 11, 2018 - 10:36am
SEF its more than hate Western values.  They hate the my god is better than your god.  They hate the way in which we treat women and gays much better.  They hate our "Democracy."  Ultimately you can't tell other parts of the world how to live.  If they like raping little boys as disgusting and immoral as that may be there's not a lot we can do to change their mind.
Bill H. Added Dec 11, 2018 - 11:06am
The way that the machine works is that if we don't change our ways to fit in with the rest of life here on Earth, we will be eliminated. Not necessarily by the pollution we have created, but most likely by a "superbug" that is just waiting for us to ignore our deadline.
Bill Kamps Added Dec 11, 2018 - 11:41am
If change is going to happen, it will be because people change their behaviors, not because the government mandates it.  At least in the US. 
 
We arent building new coal plants because the government has stopped it, we arent building them because the consumers dont want them, and put pressure on the local utilities and licensing commissions.  
 
Whether that will make the change happen fast enough, only time will tell.  China is such a huge electrical consumer that they matter more than most of the rest of the industrialized world combined. 
Stone-Eater Added Dec 11, 2018 - 11:54am
George
 
They hate our "Democracy."  Ultimately you can't tell other parts of the world how to live.  If they like raping little boys as disgusting and immoral as that may be there's not a lot we can do to change their mind.
 
We have to be VERY careful where we get the information about the exterior from and if we can believe it.
 
We can NOT usually. We have to go there to find out. I for myself believe none of the media anymore unless I know the impressum.
 
That's what I found out after 25 years in mostly African Muslim countries.
 
What we get is big 6 fake (in fact about big 200 or so in reality...). Whey have as many extremists as they have. Examples can be found on WB ;-)
Stone-Eater Added Dec 11, 2018 - 11:59am
"We have", sorry. But it's the same here in Europe. People don't know - but they judge and repeat slogans. And people don't realize that this production of hate against other cultures and people they don't know suits only the agenda of war and profit of the economic network.
TexasLynn Added Dec 11, 2018 - 12:07pm
Bill K >> Yes they (China) are building solar panels for business reasons, not because they are trying to switch to renewables.
 
Exactly.  When the idiots are clamoring for snake oil... give them snake oil and take their money.  It doesn't mean you have to believe are partake yourself.
 
China is coming on board as long as China doesn't have to really do anything, and the rest of the world is stupid enough to sink their economies.  As long as we're running towards that cliff, China will be right behind us... encouraging us on and assuring us they're with us to the end.
 
Business wise, it's smart.  From a global power perspective, it's smart.
 
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." ― Napoleon Bonaparte
Stone-Eater Added Dec 11, 2018 - 12:23pm
Lynn
 
The US cannot be an example for a functioning society for others when it burns on all ends, starting from color wars to crumbling infrastructure to a government in rotation where, for our views from the outside, your deciders are simply caring for their own power and wealth and don't care about the people.
 
And the people seems not to check that by reducing the attack budget by only 30% the whole country would have new roads and other infrastructure and could give credits to the regular Joe for starting his own business..
 
When does that regular Joe take the street to change that ? When does he realize that the MIC and the arms industry rules the country and not the figureheads you elect ?
Bill Kamps Added Dec 11, 2018 - 2:53pm
Stone - it is the Chinese not the USA that are building a coal plant a week.   We arent building any coal power plants at the moment.
 
When does he realize that the MIC and the arms industry rules the country and not the figureheads you elect ?
 
Stone this has been going on for 60 years, and the regular Joe doesnt really care.  
 
Yes of course the deciders are in it for themselves.  This started with the Founding Fathers.  Who do you think they were, regular Joes?  I think not.  They were the richest guys  in the Colonies, trying to make sure they could get even more rich, without the  King taxing them too much. 
John Minehan Added Dec 11, 2018 - 7:07pm
"According to the UN report we now have just 12 years to get these carbon dioxide levels down or we face catastrophe."
 
Obviously, it is impossible to do that.
 
Therefore what will be done, no mater what the magnitude of the problem is, is local adaptation.  This may be what happened at Pinnacle Point . . . or it could be what was done during the 17th and 18th Century "Little Ice Age" . . . but what it won't be is some kind of centralized global solution.
 
Spartacus Added Dec 11, 2018 - 7:28pm
Yes Opher, the planet is warming -- a bit.  And someday, it will cool -- a bit.  The verdict is STILL out on how much humans are causing this cycle.
 
I like Attenborough very much.   He and the BBC have done a tremendous job educating the world of our planet's ecosystem. 
Most of the new NG documentaries are way over the top and beat the drums heavily -- like a religion.  The loud and ominous music is used just to raise emotion levels.  Far from being educational and more like propaganda.  It is awful.
Attenborough was very factual in his documentaries.  They used to be really great.
Jeff Michka Added Dec 11, 2018 - 8:46pm
Pretty much same ol WB "climate science discussion".  You knowq the narrative: it's those calm, cool, deep thinking constitutional climate change deniers, and "Leftists" are screaming, their heads exploding from extramartial sex and actually believing experts other than   Fartacus or Lindsay Wheeler.  So count on nothing ever being done.  Afterall, if "WE" do something, those poor starving coal miners may not be able to stay in the good white people tribe since they'll never work again!!! Horrors1!!
Ken Added Dec 12, 2018 - 12:13am
According to the UN report we now have just 12 years to get these carbon dioxide levels down or we face catastrophe.
 
yea, all that reforestation thanks to higher CO2 levels is a complete disaster on millions of newly arable acres on now available, right?
 
Are the UN being alarmist?
 
When aren't they as they are completely into wealth redistribution?  The entire report is just another alarmist money grab.
 
So is NASA lying?
 
The scientist at NASA is a well known far left global warming alarmist, so he may or may not be lying, but he is clearly biased
 
Is Attenborough a dupe?
 
Yes
 
Or is global warming a real and terrible threat?
 
NO
Neil Lock Added Dec 12, 2018 - 4:49am
Attenborough is a hypocrite.
 
He has repeatedly said things like "our population growth has to come to an end." And yet, he has had children!
 
Anyone that displays such a level of hypocrisy cannot be trusted on anything.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 5:14am
Bill - it may well be the case that the US is doing quite a lot. But pulling out of the Paris Accord sends a loud message. If the US is bothered why should they?
We need a worldwide movement to make a real difference.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 5:20am
Stone - I don't think World War 3 is going to happen. If global warming happens it will be more catastrophic than World War 3 - droughts, starvation, flooding of most major citing and farmland, mass migration, major weather events. It will be the end of civilisation and destroy the natural ecology.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 5:21am
Stone - I wouldn't want the US to take a leading role. I want them to be part of the process. Pressure needs putting on the biggest polluters and that requires a solid front.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 5:24am
George - the desperate plight of the third world is because of the mess that the West has made of them. We have controlled, pillaged and exploited them for centuries. We have propped up the corrupt and waged war. We create the shit holes (at home and abroad).
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 5:25am
Dino - the environment is fundamental. We should respect it!
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 5:34am
Bill - China is a rapidly expanding economy. It's growth is ridiculous. But they have realised that the current levels of pollution cannot be sustained and are changing over to renewables. 
This will take time.
What is required is a coordinated pressure on countries like China and India to bring down their pollution. This is not going to happen if the USA backs off, regardless of what action the US takes.
Trump is pushing polluting the old polluting industries of oil, shale gas and coal for political reasons. He should be pushing renewables and putting the US at the forefront of those modern industries. The US is being left behind.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 5:37am
Bill - that is simply not true. The government decides on primary energy production - not consumers. They merely plug in a device and don't care how the electricity was produced. The government can set the tone and encourage renewables and also aid technological efficiency.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 5:39am
George - you are simply wrong. Most of the Third World want Western values and products. They want our lifestyle. It is only the religious nutters who reject it and they are a small minority. The world is not some homogenous group. There are all sorts of different people with different values and feelings. You can't just dump them together.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 5:40am
Bill - we are likely to be the first organism on the planet to actively eliminate ourselves! Says something for our intelligence!
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 5:44am
Tex - I really don't care if China comes on board for commercial or environmental reasons. I am not as cynical as you. When I was in Shang-Hai and Chongqing the pollution was terrible. I think the authorities have woken up to the fact that they had to do something about it. There is more to consider than just the economy.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 5:48am
John - it is not impossible to do that at all. We have made enormous strides in developing the efficiency and economy of renewables in a very short time. They are now cheap and efficient. We need to roll that out as a priority and transform the way energy is produced. If it is cheaper it will happen.
12 years is ample!
To ignore it is folly. Even if we don't achieve what we should we will eliminate a lot of the destruction. We have to limit the damage as much as we are able. That requires concerted effort. 
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 5:52am
William - I have great respect for Attenborough too. He has spent his life as a naturalist working with nature and I value his knowledge and views. He is seeing the massive destruction of the natural world and he is appalled. I think we should take him seriously.
Small changes in the temperature of the planet can have huge consequences.
Regardless of what is causing the heating it is in our remit to do something about it and it is greatly in our interest to keep the planet stable. A small rise in temperature would be cataclysmic. The rises we have had are already causing major problems of droughts, fires and flooding and contributing to mass migrations.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 5:55am
Jeff - it is a great shame that the serious business of ecology, the environment and global warming has been used for political reasons. Trump is only looking at the economy and votes. Promoting coal and shale gas is short-termism and not good for either the environment or the future economy.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 6:03am
Ken - I see. Glad to see you are so open minded.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 6:11am
Neil - that is so rubbish. Attenborough is an old man. He had children, like me, decades ago when this wasn't such a terrible problem.
When I was born in 1949 the world population was about 1.5 billion. When both I and David Attenborough had our children it was around 2 billion. It is now approaching 8 billion!
Stone-Eater Added Dec 12, 2018 - 6:38am
Oph
 
I wouldn't want the US to take a leading role. I want them to be part of the process. Pressure needs putting on the biggest polluters and that requires a solid front.
 
It's not as easy as that. It's our system of consumerism that forces countries to produce more and more cheap products to be "competitive" on the market by using old technologies and pay their slaves the absolute minimum.
 
Note: My dullphone is a Note 3, 7 years old and it works. There has been about 6 new versions which came out by now, but do I need them ? No. as long as the old stuff works, what's the problem ? PEOPLE and their consumer habits influence "climate change" (if it's true....).
 
Stone-Eater Added Dec 12, 2018 - 6:45am
BTW: CO2 certificates are a fake deal, bullshit. "Climate change" is also a method to force people to buy new cars because "the old ones pollute too much".
 
Believe me: NOTHING happens without profit in mind. You can sell new iShit to the young because they're trained to want the hip stuff. And you can sell new cars (a more expensive segment, on credit haha) to the older generation by changing environment laws and and at the same time by appealing on "your children will thank you for clean air".
 
Never believe that anything is sold on the market considering humanist beliefs.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 7:10am
Stone - I agree with you on both those points. The whole system works by exploiting people - paying them as little as possible. I too have a really old phone. All this trendy new crap is for show. It stinks - consumerist crap - and it is fuelling all the problems.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 7:13am
Stone - there is also a big element of people exploiting the green market but that doesn't mean that the catastrophe isn't real. This isn't all contrived it is happening.
George N Romey Added Dec 12, 2018 - 7:29am
You don't seem to realize that Mother Nature will eventually step in. Countries that won't control population growth will ultimately see deadly disease and viruses step in and start to kill people in mass.  It's going to happen, another black plague outbreak.  Next year I may be required to go to India for work and I'm dreading it.  I have zero desire to be exposed to any country in which a large portion of the population uses local waterways as a toilet.
 
Again, Opher you show your ignorance about other countries.  People in these countries want rulers.  Its their mentality.  Look at what happened in Iraq under supposedly a "free election."  Even when they do have elections like Russia they are hoodwinked into overwhelmingly voting for one person albeit I think the average Russian likes Putin because he's no bullshit.
 
And by the way the biggest example the US is a travesty of Democracy. Our leaders take care of the 1% and everyone else might get a bone thrown at them from time to time.  In 2008 the majority wanted a public option for healthcare and what they got was a law written by the immoral and corrupt health insurance lobby.  With of course a nice check written to Obama's next election campaign.  Do you think this is something other people would want?  
Stone-Eater Added Dec 12, 2018 - 7:38am
George
 
Some peoples need a ruler, that's true. It's their culture and history. You can't propel a whole population into democracy when they don't even have compulsory elementary school
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 7:40am
George - there is no such thing as Mother Nature - it's a human construct like Father Christmas. There is no automatic super mother stepping in to sort things out. There is just an exceedingly complex ecosystem that has taken billions of years to evolve and we are fucking it up in no time at all.
Yes it is possible that a virus will mutate but there is no certainty of that. I hope it does. Wiping out 99% of humans would not be a bad thing for the planet - even if it did kill off me and my family.
A far better solution is for us to use our intelligence and sort the problems we have created out for ourselves.
Overpopulation, pollution, species extinction, deforestation, global warming, habitat destruction - they are all in our remit to fix.
George N Romey Added Dec 12, 2018 - 7:49am
Opher are you that daff?  Of course I didn't mean Mother Nature in some kind of mystical form.  
 
SEF you are very right.  There is no way a country that has had rulers for the ions is going to stand up and say yeah give us some of those elections.  And even if they did it would be nothing more than a ruse by fiat.  Sure they want our Western movies, porn, technology and clothes but that's about it.  Too many global loving government freaks think that all people think like they do.
Will Meek Added Dec 12, 2018 - 8:31am
Conservatives,
The evidence for human caused warming is overwhelming. If you doubt this, the people you listen to are actively lying to you for profit.
 
Think about it logically for a moment. For climate change to be a conspiracy, literally every major institution across the globe would have to be in on it. That mean by definition it is not a conspiracy. 
We can however, in the US, trace the overwhelming majority of climate denial papers to the Koch brothers in one way or another.
This is a conspiracy, and if they can't keep their conspiracy a secret, how can a literal global one.
 
The argument that it is too expensive can no longer be made. Renewable energy is cheaper thanks to the development that has already occured. 
 
Ask yourselves if you really want to continue to support a former of energy that is too expensive, too dirty, and harmful to the world as a whole.
Stone-Eater Added Dec 12, 2018 - 8:37am
George
 
Sure they want our Western movies, porn, technology and clothes but that's about it.
 
I can confirm that for a large population in Africa. But there is a new young generation coming that wants to be independent and has grown up with the net - and the information it provides. And they WORK. That gives hope.
 
BTW: I know what it's like to work in Africa in the heat and without A/C. No wonder the efficiency can't match ours. But do we really NEED efficiency ? That's a more philosophical question.
Stone-Eater Added Dec 12, 2018 - 8:40am
BTW: Take out porn. Africans don't like porn. They only like to show what they have. And that's not porn, but animation for reproducement LOL We are much more dirty in that concern....and we're hypocrits. From the pope to the politicians and businessmen who fuck young girls in "secret meetings"...
TexasLynn Added Dec 12, 2018 - 10:21am
Will M >> The evidence for human caused warming is overwhelming.
 
And you realize when you (the left) say "the science is settled" and then call those who question the science "deniers" and "flat earthers", etc... you sound like someone who is espousing a religion and chastising heretics.
 
Science (by its nature) asks questions of and reviews its conclusions.  The models repeatedly wrong, the predictions that never come true, and a host of other evidence should settle the argument of unquestioned faith in these climate change prophets.
 
Will M >> If you doubt this, the people you listen to are actively lying to you for profit.
 
Probably.  And the people you (the left) listen to are in it for the same reason.  Yet you pretend the motivation of your "scientists" are as pure as the wind driven snow.  The predictions that fail to materialize, the models that are never correct, the drop dead dates that come and go, the continual fudging of the data, the cover-ups of conspiracy and misinformation, the government funding renewed year after year...
 
Think about it logically for a moment... Isn't your embrace of climate change all about ideology (socialism) and faith?  Don't get me wrong.  As a Christian, I understand faith.  I even understand faith in false, pagan gods... humanity has embraced the Earth as a god from the beginning.
 
Will M >> Think about it logically for a moment. For climate change to be a conspiracy, literally every major institution across the globe would have to be in on it.
 
I agree... it's likely not a global organized conspiracy...
 
Thinking logically for a moment, all that need be is...
1) That human nature causes men to embrace false gods and ideology (socialism) (Check)
2) That human nature causes men to embrace and jump on a gravy train (Check)
3) That human nature causes men to lie in support of all three (gods, ideology, gravy trains) (Triple Check)
 
Will M >> We can however, in the US, trace the overwhelming majority of climate denial papers to the Koch brothers in one way or another.
 
OK... and we're the conspiracy nuts.  We're the ones drinking the Kool-Ade and being spoon-fed propaganda... (eyes rolling)
 
And all of your stuff is coming from… … oh … let’s go with George Soros.  He’ll do.  “We can however, in the US, trace the overwhelming majority of climate support papers to George Soros in one way or another.”
 
The above sounds really, really stupid when you read it… doesn’t it.  How much credence would you give someone who wrote that?  How much would you give someone who believes it?
 
Will M >> The argument that it is too expensive can no longer be made.
 
LMAO... I (for one) am making THAT argument.
 
Climate change has the following purposes for its followers...
1) As a gravy train for a large contingency of "scientist".  It beats working for a living.
2) As a foundation for a pagan/earth religion
3) As a vehicle to implement globalism and socialism
4) As a vehicle to attack capitalism and western culture (particularly the U.S.)
 
Yes... all of the above to way too expensive for humanity and posterity.
 
You (the environmental left) would destroy economies and prosperity for generations for your cause and your faith.  I don't share that faith, so I'm not willing to go along, for the good of posterity.
TexasLynn Added Dec 12, 2018 - 10:21am
Will M >> Renewable energy is cheaper thanks to the development that has already occured.
 
For the umpteenth time... I call bullshit.  The propaganda that "renewable energy" is cheaper than fossil fuel sources is bullshit.  Without government subsidies it wouldn't even be remotely competitive.  Wind farms and solar panels and electric vehicles exist ONLY because of government subsidies.
 
That is why every time someone advocates for the removal of those subsidies, you guys (the left) aren't too keen on the idea.  It's almost as if you know your faith in cheap renewable energy is built on little more than green propaganda.  (Some of you even double-down on the bullshit imagining and proselytizing that there are fossil fuel subsidies).
 
Will M >> Ask yourselves if you really want to continue to support a former of energy that is too expensive, too dirty, and harmful to the world as a whole.
 
Or I might ask myself if I really want to continue to support THE energy source that has made modern cultural, and economic progress possible.  Imagine the world back in the 1800s... that is where we would be today without it.
 
On the flip side; Ask yourselves if you really want to continue to support a fake energy source that is too expensive (and impossible without subsidies), too inadequate, and harmful (economically and socially) to the world as a whole.
 
Conclusion:
Renewable Energy: Personally, I'm all for the development of ALL energy sources.  Including the ones you place your religious faith in.  But they should all compete in the same free market.  When solar and wind and whatever can compete (without subsidies) ... all power to them. (Excuse the pun).
 
Environmentalism: I've always said I'm pro-environment and anti-environmentalist.  Environmentalists are generally people who have never taken a dump in the woods and wouldn't know how.  It’s an issue of common sense (are the extreme lack there-of).
 
Through technology, we should continually make all energy sources more efficient and cleaner.  Just because it's good for the air and environment, not because there is some imagined bogy man or displeased god ready to punish humanity for our hubris.
 
There's middle ground to be had for the sake of the environment, but the left isn't interested because of the hidden agendas behind all this “climate change”; those agendas being globalism, socialism, anti-capitalism, and anti-Western civilization.  Every leftist doomsday cult (population bomb, ice age, running out of oil, etc) has had the same agendas/solutions.
Will Meek Added Dec 12, 2018 - 11:26am
TexasLynn,
 
The models
The models have been consistently right. The people you have been listening to lied about it. Of the range of outcomes predicted, only the extreme make the news. Go to the source, not just as reported by the news. If you want a good example, watch the video "A Climate of Concern". This was produced for Congress by Dutch Royal Shell to explain their findings on the dangers of climate change. In that video, they show a chart predicting the change in Earth's average temperature for the following few decades. They assumed that we would continue to use fossil fuels and only considered changes due to the effects of human added CO2. That prediction is still spot on today. The video was made in 1990.
 
Faith
I am Catholic. This is not about faith but about science. Again, you have been lied to about what the models actually say. Read the real reports from the actually journals. You will see that most of the middle of the road predictions are in fact happening. Science is about reproducibility and confirmation by making predictions and comparing outcomes. On broad scales, the predictions have been fairly accurate. 
 
Global Conspiracy vs Human Greed
 
By your own argument, someone should have come forward with the credible evidence of some other cause for the observed warming, if for no other reason than the fame and glory.
It can't be a global conspiracy and greed works both ways. There is no other explanation for observed warming that human caused CO2 emissions. No one has even tried to offer a credible explanation. 
 
The Koch brothers
When I say "traced to" I am talking either direct involvement in the founding of the organization, like the Cato Institute, or direct payments from a Koch organization to the author of the papers. Papers that later become widely discredited. Not the general funding of schools and organizations that have existed for a hundred years. Soros's own foundation does not produce "scientific" papers.
 
Renewable ARE cheaper
Reality doesn't care about your opinions on religion. Businesses and governments already are taking advantage of the cost savings from renewable energy sources.
You (the environmental right) are destroying economies and prosperity for generations. You are making clear that your god is money.
 
Businesses don't care if you can't accept reality. Cheap wind is already depressing prices in open electricity markets like ERCOT. If you really want to save taxpayer money, let's start by removing subsidies from massively polluting energy sources first.
 
Continued Support
Here you reveal the real thing that scares you, change. Because we have always done it that way is never a good argument. 
 
"On the flip side; Ask yourselves if you really want to continue to support a fake energy source that is too expensive (and impossible without subsidies), too inadequate, and harmful (economically and socially) to the world as a whole"
I did ask myself. That is why I stopped supporting fossil fuels and got a cheap to buy and operate EV. It is time for you to make a serious evaluation of that yourself.
 
Conclusions
All subsidies removed, fossil fuels cannot compete with wind or solar. It is time for you to reevaluate your religious dogma on this subject and look at it objectively.
 
Your last bit about environmentalism is simply nonsense. It is time to live up to your supposed Christianity and act to help your fellow man. Stop bowing down to the greedy oil gods and stop promoting expensive, dirty, and harmful energy sources to simply for your own benefit. If you think left leaning people sound like religious nutcases, you should listen to yourself. 
 
It doesn't matter what you believe about the virtues of fossil fuels anyway. I just want to end fossil fuel subsidies and prevent extra burdens being placed on clean renewable than already exist. Market forces and basic economics will take care of the rest.
Ken Added Dec 12, 2018 - 11:36am
 I see. Glad to see you are so open minded.
 
Far more than you ever will be.  Funny that I am only "open minded" if I agree with your position, but because I disagree, your sarcastic response is expected - and your usual factless rant.
Ken Added Dec 12, 2018 - 11:43am
Will your teachers would be proud.  You have been well and truly indoctrinated into your religion.
 
We can however, in the US, trace the overwhelming majority of climate denial papers to the Koch brothers in one way or another.
 
That is completely false unless "other" ways you include are including lying about those evil Koch Brothers.
Ken Added Dec 12, 2018 - 11:44am
The models have been consistently right.
 
Really?  So in the past 40 years we have gone through an ice age, then had the polar ice caps melt, the entire coastal cities have flooded and we are living on the island of Kansas, right?
Will Meek Added Dec 12, 2018 - 12:18pm
Ken,
Yes, the Catholic nuns that taught me indeed tell me they are proud.
 
So... you realize even say they founded the Cato institute and donated to and influenced the Heritage Foundation. Are you saying the Koch brothers are lying about this?
 
On the models.
Yes, the planet was headed for an ice age until we intervened with sufficient CO2 to overcome the natural balance.
Show me the model that had the ice caps melt before now as a likely outcome.
How about you ask my friends in Miami about coastal flooding. 
Bill Kamps Added Dec 12, 2018 - 1:07pm
But they have realised that the current levels of pollution cannot be sustained and are changing over to renewables. 
This will take time.
 
How much time? how many decades? 
They are building a new coal plant a week for the foreseeable future.   It wont matter what the rest of the countries do, if China does this.  You need to stop listening to what China  SAYS, and start watching what they DO.   Why did Paris exempt China?
 
that is simply not true. The government decides on primary energy production - not consumers
 
Not in the USA.  Utilities have choices what they build.  Consumers here can choose who is their electric provider, and that decision can be based on what kind of generating capacity the utility has.  The government has not forbid coal plants, the utilities are not building them because consumers dont want them.
 
You really need to get your facts straight if you are going to talk about this.
 
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 1:33pm
Lol George - just pointing out that it is unpredictable.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 1:34pm
Will - I thoroughly agree with you!
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 1:36pm
Stone - they work damn hard and they value education far more than our kids in the West. That is why they will rise up and overtake us.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 1:38pm
Tex - science does test stringently and their models do come true and are coming true.
Global warming is following precisely the patterns predicted - weather patterns, sea level rises, ice sheet melting, coral death, sea acidification. It's all there if you look.
Will Meek Added Dec 12, 2018 - 1:38pm
Bill Kamps,
I am honestly not worried about fossil fuel plants. Wind and Solar are already cheaper to an extent and soon storage will be cheap enough to rely on RE alone. Not long after that new RE plus storage will be cheaper than continuing to run existing fossil fuel plants. It is hard to beat free fuel. This last I expect to happen in the 2025-2027 time frame. Also around the same time I expect EVs to take over the new car market. I expect both transportation and electricity generation to be >90% renewable energy and EVs by 2030. A lot can change in 10 years.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 1:40pm
Ken - your rants are utterly predictable.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 1:43pm
Will - I agree - we are riding the cusp of a huge wave of technological advance. Ten years is a life-time.
The cheapness of renewables will transform the world. That is why I think that we can control global warming. We just need to get the research going and roll it out.
Those who are at the forefront will benefit most!
Those that stay with outdated technology will be left behind.
Short-termism for political reasons will put the USA at a big disadvantage.
Bill Kamps Added Dec 12, 2018 - 1:45pm
Will, then the governments dont need to tax carbon, and upset our economies.
 
My point really is that things like the Paris Accords, that exempt China from the process, are worthless.  Why should the US and Europe have regulations put on them, while other countries like China and India continue to push carbon into the atmosphere at will and get a free pass. 
 
I dont really believe that RE is cheaper than fossil fuels right now, when storage, and 24/7 reliability is taken into consideration.  However, it is moving in that direction.  It has a ways to go. 
 
 
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 1:46pm
Bill - the US Congress can still pass laws, give tax breaks, tax and do a lot to decide how things go I'm sure.
There is a revolution in Green Energy - look how far it's come in no time at all! It is going to get a lot cheaper and more efficient. Old technologies will not be able to compete. 
Competition and economics will rid us of polluting coal, gas and oil.
We need to prime the pump.
TexasLynn Added Dec 12, 2018 - 3:03pm
If all the pie in the sky propaganda the left spews was true, then the green revolution will win no matter what.  Fossil fuels are doomed, and all this will work itself out.  Gaea be praised.
 
No subsidies, or tax breaks are needed when we consider the power of the free market and we all know that renewable energy is kicking butt and taking names when it comes to being cheap and clean.  I mean, that all I hear about.
 
Yes... but... if we really believe that, then why all the hysteria and the dire warnings.  Why?  If the all green lefty "facts" stated in this thread are true?
 
Logically?  I can think of only one reason... because they're not true.
 
And we all know it.  Even the greenies.
 
Thus, we need to keep priming that pump we've been priming for the past decade plus, and will still be priming decades from now. 
 
If everything you believe were true, that pump should be working on its own by now.  It's not; and likely won't until it really can compete in the free market.  It can't.  And you know it.  But your ideology says... keep on priming.  Gaea demands it, or we face her wrath.
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 3:11pm
Tex - you know that's not true. Look at the strides being made. Wouldn't it be nice to have a non-polluting energy source? Why have you got such a down on it?
Will Meek Added Dec 12, 2018 - 3:37pm
Texas Lynn, 
Like I said, reality doesn't care much if you accept it or not. I am just making sure the right doesn't keep trying to bring the world down with them with things like arbitrary stored fuel requirements or claims of greater reliability or even added taxes. 
And I am trying to get subsidies for fossil fuels cut to create a more even playing field and save taxpayer money for things that actually help like social security and Medicare .
Ken Added Dec 12, 2018 - 3:39pm
Yes, the Catholic nuns that taught me indeed tell me they are proud.
 
I am supposed to be impressed that a sect of Christianity that chooses a marxist leader educated you? Yea, ok.  Your critical thinking is quite lacking.

So... you realize even say they founded the Cato institute and donated to and influenced the Heritage Foundation. Are you saying the Koch brothers are lying about this?
 
I am saying that YOU are lying that virtual every anti-global warming can be attributed to some endeavor by the Kochs.
 
On the models.
Yes, the planet was headed for an ice age until we intervened with sufficient CO2 to overcome the natural balance.
 
That is simply an absurd excuse.  Of course it is at least more original than those  here that claim "that was just an outlier model"
 
In reality, there has been NO model that has proven correct.  In fact, those that are CLOSEST to correct have been the Russian models.  And what is unique about them?  They are the ones that predicted the LEAST amount of temperature change.
 
Go figure.

Show me the model that had the ice caps melt before now as a likely outcome.
How about you ask my friends in Miami about coastal flooding. 
 
OK, they are supposed to melt by 2020, you still have 2 years for that to come true.  Good luck!
 
I lived in Florida for 2 decades.  I know how that works.  I also own a condo on the beach in Florida and have for 3 decades.   Believe it or not, the beach is still there...so is the condo....
TexasLynn Added Dec 12, 2018 - 4:27pm
Opher >> Tex - you know that's not true.
 
What do I know is not true Opher?  Be specific.
 
Opher >> Look at the strides being made.
 
God bless the strides Opher.  God bless the men and women making them.  I'm rooting for them.  I would love to wake up tomorrow to a break-through in nuclear fusion or some other "deus ex machina" solution.
 
But... instead I choose to deal with reality.  (unlike a couple on this thread).
 
We're not there yet, Opher.  Not even close.  And I refuse to pretend the Emperor has clothes.  I refuse to be part of the crowd that has and will continue to pour endless amounts of public funds down that black hole.
 
Let those who believe in it, (that you and Will, Opher) spend the money and reap the rewards of success... or the loss of failure.  Just like every other technology and business.  Since you guys are such believers, you should be all for that... IF you really believed.  Your reluctance, though, makes my suspicious of even your faith in your words.
 
Opher >> Wouldn't it be nice to have a non-polluting energy source?
 
Absolutely.  Like I said, I'm rooting for you guys.  Surprise me.  Knock my socks of.  Risk the capital and make it happen.  I want to be wrong.  I want you to be rich and for there to be egg all over my face.  I WANT THAT TO HAPPEN.
 
Opher >> Why have you got such a down on it?
 
Because there is a lot of talking out of both sides of the mouth in your points/argument.
 
One Side: You believe... renewable is more efficient than oil, and that’s right here right now… not something in the future. 
 
Side Two: We've got to keep priming that pump and subsidizing and punishing the other side.  Why?  If mouth side one is true, it’s not necessary.
 
The points of both sides are mutually exclusive, Opher.  Both aren't /can't be true.
 
And I'm sick of watching things like Solyndra, where all the risk is with Joe Taxpayer and zero risk with the guys who waste half a billion dollars on this crap.
 
If everything you believe and say is true, the likes of Solyndra (and Tesla and GM) wouldn't need the billions and they would be just fine on their own in the free market.
 
They aren't fine and there's a reason for it that you refuse to see or admit (I don’t know which).  All you want is to keep that pump being "primed".  When does it stop.  When do we let renewable stand on it’s own two feet.  Care to give me a date?
 
Why am I so "down on it?"  Because one can only be bent over the table and "serviced" so many times before you reach a point and say “ENOUGH”!
TexasLynn Added Dec 12, 2018 - 4:30pm
Will Meek >> Like I said, reality doesn't care much if you accept it or not.
 
Same right back at ya... Will
 
Will Meek >> I am just making sure the right doesn't keep trying to bring the world down with them...
 
Yeah... in other words keep pouring tax money down that renewable energy hole.  Heaven forbid you lefties risk your own capital in all this %$#@ you place so much faith in.  Why do that when Uncle Sam owes you and the world and society so much?
 
Half a billion for Solyndra. <giant sucking sound> A few billion to build EV cars by Tesla, GM, et al... <giant sucking sound>...
 
Let's keep it "fair" after all.
 
Will Meek >> And I am trying to get subsidies for fossil fuels cut...
 
Why does it not surprise me that you trot out this little piece of propaganda? <Eyes rolling> How many times do we have to address this crap?
 
Every “argument” I've ever seen from the left uses the following "logic" to say there are fossil fuel "subsidies".
 
1) The fossil fuel industry pays taxes.
2) I want the fossil fuel industry to pay more taxes.
3) The difference between what they pay and what I want them to pay is a subsidy.
 
Then you guys then delve into the tax code and say fossil fuel companies should not be allowed the legal tax write-offs other companies and industries are allowed.  I’ve even had some moron proffer that the fact that the military protects our oil/energy interests is a subsidy.  I suspect your “argument” is just more of this trash.
 
It all comes down to what many of you lefties embrace... government should pick the winners and losers.  How many times have we heard "elections have consequences".  Crony capitalism fueled by ideology.  Yeah... we need more of that.
Will Meek Added Dec 12, 2018 - 4:41pm
Ken,
 
You were the one that brought up education. And since you are clearly not Christian or you would know better, you would do well to learn that the Catholic Church is not a sect.
 
For the Koch brothers, I made it clear that I was talking about pseudoscientific papers challenging climate change. Not the kind of ignorance and willful malice spread by you.
 
On the models
Funny how in any discussion involving the right, Russia keeps coming up. Usually from the right saying nice things about them. I would rather be associated with socialism than communism.
But no, the western models have undershot the measured warming for the last decade.
 
On your condo
Just because you have a beach condo doesn't mean the insurance companies are not starting to raise home insurance on my friends. And rich people are pricing them out of neighborhoods at higher elevation. 
If you have spent any time at all in Florida, you know that ocean intrusion into Miami at high tide is real, is new, and is caused by human caused climate change. 
 
Here is a comparison of Hanson's predictions vs measured values. He made the original hockey stick graph if you don't remember. Notice that Every year warming exceeded his worst case predictions. 
http://www.realclimate.org/images/Tglobal_giss_verification.png
Will Meek Added Dec 12, 2018 - 4:55pm
Texas Lynn,
How about you go talk to the Oklahoma Teacher's union about how their promised pay raise was cancelled right after oil companies were granted tax cuts for oil exploration. 
Let's stop throwing money down the oil well and put it where it will do the most good. Wind and solar.
You on the right are worse about your winners and losers. To many examples to list. 
The right would do well to remember that elections have consequences and that Hilary Clinton won the popular vote not trump. 
We will get rid of the right's wannabe dictatorship, don t worry American patriots will get rid of the conservatives and bring democracy back.
Ken Added Dec 12, 2018 - 5:30pm
you would do well to learn that the Catholic Church is not a sect.
 
It is a sect, just as the various branches of the protestants are.  You call it whatever you want, but it is just as much as any other denomination of christianity.
 
 
For the Koch brothers, I made it clear that I was talking about pseudoscientific papers challenging climate change
 
Really? That is simply another lie.
 
Let's take a look at EXACTLY what you said
 
We can however, in the US, trace the overwhelming majority of climate denial papers to the Koch brothers in one way or another.
 
The only way that you can claim that what you said was talking about pseudo-scientific papers means you believe EVERY paper challenging climate change is pseudo-scientific.  On top of that, you do not refut the fact that you are lying about those evil Koch brothers who are NOT responsible for "an overwhelming majority" of those papers.
 
Just because you have a beach condo doesn't mean the insurance companies are not starting to raise home insurance on my friends
 
 
Sorry, but insurance companies raising insurance costs for your friends doesn't suddenly prove climate change.  They are any  number of reasons for insurance rates to rise, especially in Miami.
 
If you have spent any time at all in Florida, you know that ocean intrusion into Miami at high tide is real, is new, and is caused by human caused climate change. 
 
I not only spent many years in various parts of Florida, I also graduated from the University of Florida.  I am well acquainted with Florida climate, and what you are saying is simply false.
 
He made the original hockey stick graph if you don't remember
 
Not only do I remember, I also remember how it has been completely debunked.
 
Of course, you can't even get that right though because it wasn't Hansen, it was Michael Mann who did it as an extension of a 1998 Study in Nature Magazine using flawed statistical methodology
opher goodwin Added Dec 12, 2018 - 6:42pm
Tex - I'm glad we agree on the target to aim for. I obviously think we're a lot closer than you do.
We'll see.
I don't think we get anywhere without investment.
IMO renewables are already making a huge difference.
Logical Man Added Dec 12, 2018 - 7:55pm
Call me funny, but I think it's a good idea to look after the place you live in.
On the other hand, homo sapiens will become extinct at some point.
Why waste time? Best get it over with.
opher goodwin Added Dec 13, 2018 - 3:35am
Logical - I tend to feel the same. The shame is that we seem to be taking so many other species with us.
Flying Junior Added Dec 13, 2018 - 5:52am
Thank you so much Opher.  There was an American guy on Disney that narrated all of the nature movies for so many years beginning in the mid 1960s when I was in an elementary school with flickering 16 mm films shown to the children, until very likely less than twenty-five years ago.  His voice was so calm and reassuring.  He just made the whole world look beautiful.  From predatory mammals to the fish in the sea.  It always seemed folksy and somehow okay.  I always wondered just exactly who was the Brit who so much reminded me of his inimitable, (right word?) style.
 
I am guessing that David Attenborough is the beautiful cat that we have heard so many times narrating the great BBC nature epics and so many wonderful programs about natural life?  It's difficult to think that anything whatsoever is wrong with the world when you nod off listening to Attenborough on the BBC with your kids.  All nature is in balance.
 
Surely David would never even think of risking his status amongst the educators of the young nor his well-deserved acclaim from the foot soldiers the world of enlightenment simply to parrot and otherwise give succor to those deviant supporters of the ridiculous notion of AGW?






Will Meek Added Dec 13, 2018 - 9:53am
Ken,
On Christianity 
You do not understand Christianity. Learn about it before you speak more.
 
On the papers
No, you need to learn how to read better.
 
On home insurance in Miami
The rates are being raised in response to water damage claims, so yes, this is further evidence of climate change.
 
On the ocean entering Miami
To deny this is simply a lie. What else are you lying about?
Reporting on "sunny day" flooding in Miami
 
On the hockey stick graph
The debunking is a lie. Every attempt to discredit the hockey stick graph has in turn been discredited. Wikipedia gives a good history of how the oil industry has lied and mislead the public in attempting to discredit the graph.
Hickey stick controversy
opher goodwin Added Dec 13, 2018 - 12:44pm
FJ - well he would and he does. I guess few people are in such a situation as to get all the information and to have seen the effects up close and personal. If anyone understands the situation I'd bet on him!
David Attenborough believes the world is warming due to the effects of mankind's pollution. He thinks it is threatening the natural world and our own survival.
I think he's right.
opher goodwin Added Dec 13, 2018 - 12:46pm
Will - it is a shame that the propaganda put out for political reasons and propaganda of the Oil/coal/gas industry is believed.
Will Meek Added Dec 13, 2018 - 12:57pm
Ophir goodwin,
I see it as an increasingly coordinated attack on America and I am just defending my home.
opher goodwin Added Dec 13, 2018 - 1:20pm
We need to defend the rest of the planet too Will!
Will Meek Added Dec 13, 2018 - 1:44pm
Ophir goodwin,
True, though the things I am promoting to save America, return to rule of law, phasing out fossil fuels, sustainable agricultural, medical research, funding education and such, will help us all.
Ken Added Dec 13, 2018 - 1:59pm
On Christianity 
You do not understand Christianity. Learn about it before you speak more.
 
You know not of what you speak, as you have proven over and over.  I understand it quite well and spent many years in church and studying the scriptures.
 
The rates are being raised in response to water damage claims, so yes, this is further evidence of climate change.
 
 
Sorry, but that isn't causality.  One does not mean the other.  In case you didn't know, Miami was dredged out of the everglades to begin with.  There are many ways that water damage can occur.  As with all of your other comments, there is simply no logic and anecdotal evidence is not empirical evidence.
 
I notice that I use an actual scientific and statistical report that shows how the hockey stick was discredited, and you use.....Wikipedia....enough said there.
Flying Junior Added Dec 13, 2018 - 4:37pm
It is especially of concern as we consider the grave effects that warming is having on the sensitive and vulnerable habitats of forest, stream, wetlands, mountains, deserts, lakes and oceans.  The complicated and wonderful relationships that have evolved between the species and the Earth are so important to all life on Earth.
 
What a shame.  It is mostly in the U.S.  But Europe and Britain are endeavoring to catch up to us on the willful ignorance front.

Logical Man Added Dec 13, 2018 - 5:37pm
The world's current financial system, based on debt, requires continuous growth to avoid collapse. This is the main driver of the damage being done to the planet. Things will continue to deteriorate until this changes.
The planet will be fine and evolution will fill in any ecological niches left open. Life will go on until the sun evapourates all the earth's water. Humans are not that important, in the overall scheme of things.
 
opher goodwin Added Dec 13, 2018 - 5:59pm
Will - I agree. Regardless of your political view it just is common sense.
opher goodwin Added Dec 13, 2018 - 6:02pm
FJ - yes you are right. We live in an ecosystem that is the culmination of billions of years. It seems that in a matter of a few thousand years we are dismantling it all.
The UK and EU are catching up with the US on that front.
opher goodwin Added Dec 13, 2018 - 6:04pm
Logical - yes - but I do find that sad. We found ourselves in the midst of an amazing place and are destroying it.
It will recover but so many wonderful creatures will be lost and it will take millions of years to get back to its glory. We are doing so much damage.
Will Meek Added Dec 13, 2018 - 6:12pm
Ken, 


Definition of sect 




1aa dissenting or schismatic religious bodyespecially one regarded as extreme or heretical
ba religious denomination
 
So unless you want to argue with the dictionary, all non-Catholic Christians belong to a sect, not the other way around.
 
Water damage. 
Yes, when they say the water damage is from ocean entry, that is cause and effect.
 
Wikipedia 
You cited a news article not a scientific paper. From the magazine "New Scientist", not a science journal. 
Know what the beautiful thing about Wikipedia is? They list their references references. Including actual science journal peer reviewed papers. So pretty much anything that you want to say has debunked the hockey stick graph as a peer reviewed paper from an ACTUAL science journal debunking it.

opher goodwin Added Dec 13, 2018 - 6:52pm
Will - as far as I'm concerned all Christianity and Islam are sects of Judaism - which is a religion that grew out of previous primitive Arab cultures.
Will Meek Added Dec 13, 2018 - 7:03pm
Ophir goodwin,
That would be correct. But Ken has been arguing that all Christians are sects of each other, which is not how the idea of sect works.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Dec 19, 2018 - 8:57pm
Do cow and other animals' flatulence contribute significantly to the problem?  Would turning off lights in big buildings help? Would a massive and global plant planting effort help? Would more bicycles and rickshaws in cities like NYC help? Does not cost any money. If Americans believe global warming is a hoax, let's burn, burn, burn to emulate China's smog environment.
Dave Volek Added Dec 20, 2018 - 11:46am
Jeff Michka
I think your short comment was right on! Humorous yet with an underlying point or two worth pondering.
 
Everyone Else
The experts are very united in this issue. To me, that is enough reason we should take action to remediate climate change. The fact that we can't do this politically is another sign we need to change our system of governance.
 
And I acknowledge that the experts may be wrong. But all issues we face as communities, nations, and the world are probabilistic in nature. In other words, we really don't know for sure how things will turn out with any humanistic undertaking. Rather than accept one of the two extremes proffered by the loudest voices, we need to be thinking in terms of probabilities. Humans are not very good at that.