USAmerican "Health Care" is a MASSIVE Fraud

The following was triggered by an excellent article I read today about a piece of the fraud that is the USAmerican corporate, for-profit remedial sick care industry (abbreviated below as RSC) that has personally effected (afflicted) me over the last few years: privatized "Medicare Advantage". 


The complete article, "Stop Medicare Privatization" and my point by point comments are at:


USAmerican "Health Care" is a MASSIVE Fraud

Let's briefly talk about "costs", an underlying lie that underpins delivery of "care" in the entire FRAUDULENT RSC Industry.

There was an OUTSTANDING COVER article published in Time Magazine in 2013 by Steven Brill titled, "Bitter Pill. Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us".  This article described the "Chargemaster", a Top-Secret and ever pliable "list of charges" that the bean counters and CFOs working at the RSC provider corporations use as the basis of their massive fraud.

If you're among the "fortunate few" who have a stack of these on hand, follow this discussion using one of your "medical bills".  I'm going to use the large stack of bills I got from Kaiser that totals around $195,000 (Chargemaster) for treatment of the heart attack I suffered from June 9 through the 10th (it took them 11 hours to get me to care) that was in no small part caused by decisions made in 2012 at another hospital in order to serve their profit-motive and left me with an occluded main artery in my heart.

Starting in the left hand column there is usually a column of incredibly high numbers that are labeled something like "Amount Provider Billed the Plan".  This is the completely inflated, bullsh*t "cost" pulled from the "hospital/Medical Center" corporation's "Chargemaster", that secret list of "charges" for "procedures" that even most doctors don't have access to (or care about), is ever changing (increasing), that we "consumers" are not told about and is the amount that SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT HAVE INSURANCE IS CHARGED!**

Next is another magical column, "Amount the Plan Approved".  This is another bloated but usually*** much smaller "cost" that allegedly the insurance provider has "negotiated" with the provider to be the amount they agree to pay.  Of course, in reality, the "negotiation" is usually one-sided, the insurance corporations (that will be eliminated in HR676) set their profit goals (add 20-40% for profits and overhead) and then determine the minimum they're likely to have to pay in claims once their mechanisms of denial of care fail to block payment and adjust what they will pay accordingly to maintain high rates of profit and overhead.

Then is the "Plan's Share" - the amount of that inflated "cost" that they will pay to provider.

And of course, after that is the nearly ONLY IN AMERICA(sic): YOUR SHARE.  This is the punitive, Calvinist "CO-PAY" that's designed mainly to deter you from using Health Care until it's often too late to alleviate a minor condition with minimal interventions but rather one is forced to avail oneself much later in the disease process with expensive, extraordinary and extremely profitable remedial "care" for much more critical, often life-threatening conditions. 


Passing HR676 - Expanded and Improved Medicare for All would eliminate this last column.


** A good friend of mine had his entire savings for his retirement from a lifetime as a truck driver taken from him by a hospital in California to pay this phony charge from the Chargemaster since he didn't have "insurance" when they cut off his leg. He was not employed at the time and was too young for Medicare.

*** I'm still trying to follow up on ONE charge in my stack of bills.  Thanks to missing some important symptoms in May  of this year, my massive heart attack (and overdosing me with a blood pressure medicine in my 2nd day of the stay) resulted in a 6 day stay in the hospital in June.  There is a charge in my bills for "Room and Board" that defies the above pattern.

Amount Provider Billed the Plan is $9,580 and the Amount the Plan Approved is FORTY FOUR THOUSAND SEVEN HUNDRED AND SIXTY SIX DOLLARS ($44,766) with a WHOPPING "Co-PAY" of $1,160 that I allegedly OWE!!

Every other item in the bills is "discounted" by at least 40% between the 1st and 2nd column so this one should have been "Amount the Plan Approved" at around $5,800 with my co-pay calculated to be about $150.  I'm still trying to get an answer from the Grievance Dept as to WTF that is all about!



ChetDude Added Dec 6, 2018 - 9:05pm
I fully understand how "insurance" works. 
And in the USAmerican system, the insurance corporations tend to drive costs upward (higher "costs" = higher premiums = higher gross = higher profits) and obstruct access to care (Lower "benefit payments" = higher profits) and thus contribute NO essential value to the system. 
U.S. Medicare has a very low 3-4% overhead compared to an average insurance corporation's 20-40%. No one in their right mind would allow that to continue.
That's why when HR676 - Expanded and Improved Medicare for All is passed corporate insurance as a commodity that duplicates the very generous coverage in HR676 (including dental and vision care) will be outlawed. 
PS: HR676 also means NO UNINSURED!  Everybody in, Nobody out.
No one is arguing that USAmericans do without health care.  But we are asserting that other than the industry's campaign bribes and the Oligarchy that have bought our Congress and pResidents over the decades, there is no reason why we should pay twice as much as other nations pay for their comprehensive, universal, effective Health Care systems and get a 37th rate "sick care" system that obstructs those with "insurance" and leaves tens of millions entirely out in the cold.
ChetDude Added Dec 6, 2018 - 9:08pm
PS: thanks to the profit-motive that drives every aspect of USAmerican remedial sick care (see my earlier article), we get very little "quality health care" compared to many other nations who spend half as much per person per year but who have removed the profit-motive as the driver of care and costs...and thus deliver MORE and more comprehensive CARE...
Ryan Messano Added Dec 6, 2018 - 9:21pm
I didn't see anything about the real cause of health care issues: Lifestyle choices.  We spend $700 billion a year for drug, tobacco, and alcohol issues.  That would totally change our health care system around if we saved that money, and a century ago, we largely didn't have those issues.  Further, obesity is a huge cost, from the average American watching hellivision 9 years of their life.  Further, we have 110 Americans with an STD.  And, since we are watching porn and having so much sex outside of marriage, the peaceful haven of a family and marriage isn't available to many, leading to more dysfunction, mental and physical. 
Further, we would have had 200 million mostly healthy people here if we hadn't legalized abortion and contraception in 1973 and 1965, respectively, but the love of pleasure overruled that.  Now we have a declining population, that is stressed out because it is spread too thin.  That exacerbates health problems more.  It has nothing to do with privatization.  Though government health care is slavery and I will die before I ever use it. 
I love how debauched Americans love to blame their health care issues on health care providers, and refuse to accept the blame for their bad lifestyle choices.  If we outlawed porn and psychotropic drugs, along with abortion, and contraception, we'd have plenty of money to spend on those who are legitimately sick due to no choices of their own.
Chet, dude, do you ever stop and think?
Ryan Messano Added Dec 6, 2018 - 10:37pm
Government health care will never work, Smog Tsar.  I hope you don't mind the improvement upon your name I attempted.  It seems to match your temperament too, which can be cloudy and confusing at times. 
Mao, Hitler, and Lenin all promised government healthcare, and it didn't work. 
ChetDude Added Dec 6, 2018 - 10:48pm
Please stop it, Ryan, ROFLMAO -- laughing that hard hurts my tummy!
What an amazing, delusional mish-mash of nonsense, Ryan. 
Unlike you, Mr. Knee-Jerk who knows nothing about the system, I always stop to think instead of spouting total ignorant nonsense and irrelevant bullsh*t.
If we hadn't legalized abortion throughout the country in '73, we'd be stuck with an extra 40 or 50 million uninsured folks for YOU to help pay for, clown.
I guess according to your delusions there are no abortions, alcohol, cigarettes, fatty food, porn or psychotropic drugs in the 36 nations with better health care systems than ours - with healthier populations at 1/2 the cost, hmmm? 
Gawd, what a loon!!!  But keep the jokes comin', you're a scream.
Oh, and by the way, no one is talking about "government health care", idiot.  Very few nations have it (and those few who do are healthier and receive better care at MUCH lower cost than USAmericans).  We're only talking about removing some of the leeches skimming 30-40% off the top of a system that the USAmerican taxpayer pays most of the costs for.
Ryan Messano Added Dec 6, 2018 - 10:59pm
Oh my, what a load of disinformation you are laboring under, dude.  Please watch this 3 hour video to discover how they brainwashed you in the schools and in the media.  This is how to beat the left in every debate.
No, maybe study history.  You can't take sex outside of marriage without a society crumbling.
Everything works in cycles.  When you learn the rules, you know what to do and what to expect.  But those at the top don't want you learning the rules.  They prefer you to be a mindless drone.   
ChetDude Added Dec 6, 2018 - 11:18pm
Yeah, right, I'm gonna' watch the 3 hour version of your shyte and nonsense?
Sorry, no fucking way!
And please stop posting here, your obscenely funny shit is killin' me!!!!
ChetDude Added Dec 6, 2018 - 11:26pm
Mogg: Please step away from Fox Noise machine, here are the REAL numbers:
I can tell you why HR676 - Expanded and Improved Medicare for All hasn't been moving in the corporate/plutocrat funded and managed Congress nor by Clinton, gwbush, Obama or Trump.  Just "Follow the Money" -- OpenSecrets shows where the campaign bribes came from and to whom they were paid.  Even though the majority of Health Care Professionals want it, the LAST thing the corporations who run and profit from the last for-profit sick care system on the Planet wants is affordable health care financing to take their it has in every other industrialized nation.
Medicare: 4% overhead and administration costs -- the rest, at least 20%...
ChetDude Added Dec 6, 2018 - 11:37pm
Mogg:Thanks for engaging...  ;-)
PS: Over 70% of the "voters" including over 50% of the republican brand want Medicare for All NOW...among USAmericans, it's an easy sell.  The tricky bit will be to get past the republicans and corporate dems in Congress and that big orange turd in the WH...
Probably not until 2021.  As it's the most popular singular issue there is, if the dems embraced MFA they'd steamroller into Congress and the White House in 2020...
ChetDude Added Dec 6, 2018 - 11:57pm
PPS: We already know the republican health care plan, "Unless you're rich, if you get sick, die quickly!"
Jeffry Gilbert Added Dec 7, 2018 - 12:02am
One'd be even more pissed off if one had paid into the system one's entire working and retired life but can't use it because one doesn't live in DUHmerica.
Pure theft. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Dec 7, 2018 - 12:56am
ChetDude, I am looking for the 'fraud' but find that the government is the only participant that is defrauding the public. You may not like the health care insurance policies offered by an insurance company but there descriptions are available and a person can with help fully understand them. You may think it is unfair that the only the rich can pay fees charged. But that is not by definition 'fraud.' They only fraud has been not considered fraud for a century, the use of legal jargon associated with health care policy text.
The federal government requirement that no one can be turned away from a provider that receives public funds. The cost of the patents is not reimburst by the government federal or state. So that cost is added to the operating overhead cost of the hospital which is divided by the money collected from individuals and their insurance companies and added as a percentage increase for every dollar charged. Now ChatDude that is fraud. It is a hidden tax that is not proportioned as required by law.
Medicare [LBJ 1965] followed the practices set by Social Security a 'Panze Scheme' fraud. We can thank Bismark that created this 'pay as you go' approach. The taxes paid into an 'account'. By calling it an 'accoun't gives a false impression that there is a RIGHT TO HEALTH CARE.  But the money is spent by government with worthless IOU's replacing money. And on top of this welfare programs such as (SSDI) Social Security Disability Insurance have been drawing funds for decades. Additionally they tax employers which is not included in your income but is an expense of an employee so your not getting a true picture of the cost. Private insurance is likely cheaper.
ChetDude, you want fraud then the FDR's created health care system is a fraud where the insurance companies and the service providers conspire to set prices. The largest third party payer is Medicare. The profit of the insurance company and service provider increases with higher prices. They have no incentive to lower costs.  The fraud is that the price is the highest that the customers will pay. Medicare is not much better off since the service providers and insurance companies are hired by the government to set the price they will pay, fraud.
All national health care system have third party payers.
ChatDude, from the other two articles it is clear your in favor of national health care and this is also pitch for national health care. So let us review what I said earlier.
It is true that the socialist nations of Europe and Asia and even all communist countries all agree that "Health Care is a Human Right," but I have never and I do mean NEVER read from any of those nations actually defining what level of health care is the minimum needed to achieve that HUMAN RIGHT?

Now even a very dull person would expect that to be defined. The level of health care in the poorest nation could easily be define as the minimum acceptable lever of health care to comply with what is a right. ChetDude, I am sure you will have a higher level. . . . ChetDude, put a stake in the ground. [have not done that yet, I am waiting]
Here is a analogous example for how a national health care system is viewed by people and also how they respond.
ChetDude, have you ever gone to a dinner where someone else is paying or where the cost is split evenly? We all have. What happens is that most people purchase the highest meal since they know that they will pay for others that will choose a very high cost meal. They want to get the most value from their money.

Tax payers only want to pay for the health care they receive and since on average the vast majority of the population are health the amount of taxes that citizens will pay is below the cost needed to pay for the demand, remember that dinner. So with the money coming in capable of paying for a limited amount of service then not all the demand will be served. Waiting list are used to reduce cost in every national health care system.

Service is weighted to favor the majority of tax payers wellness healthy care and care weighted to get them back to paying taxes. This is the the definition the nation says of health care that is fair and caring, is a human right. The mix system that you said Switzerland has and America has is a mixture of cost and weighting to balance cost and money put forward.
ChatDude, the government already spend a fortune on welfare how much more do we have to spend, put a stake in the ground? Military spending and running the government is mandated by the Constitution, obviously not 'discretionary' ($671.38B). Medicare and other health care costs of 'mandatory' spending portion is ($985.74B) but is not mandated by the Constitution, thus actually 'discretionary.
Thomas Sutrina Added Dec 7, 2018 - 12:57am
Medicare and other health care costs of 'mandatory' spending portion is ($985.74B) but is not mandated by the Constitution, thus actually 'discretionary.' Remaining not mandated by the Constitution spending, actually discretionary is ($2019.91B) of which Social Security is the largest single line item.
Not one full national health care system has gotten a handle on cost without limiting access to those that are less productive citizens or in small niche categories. What has not been tried since the 1930's in America is free market approach where patents vote with their feet for the best service to price mix. This will help set the price for all health care lower then the present third party or national health care system.

Dr. Carson and others suggest a mix system where the health care that the health average citizen be paid directly by the patent. And that each person have a health care savings account. The poor today have a credit care for welfare so they would get an account funded by welfare. Thus the free market desire to get the most value from a person money will find the lowest cost and quality care in the eyes of the patients.
Since the patent is use to seeing and bargaining for health care lower costs and higher value will carry over to health insurance for major expenditures. A safety net will be provided as it is already today for the poor and for those that exceed the maximum value of their insurance. I would add an annuity feature to health insurance so that people will be covered during life transitions due to having been covered earlier.
Gerrilea Added Dec 7, 2018 - 1:43am
Thomas S--- You are being lied to, those "costs" for providing care to those whom can't afford it or have no insurance. The Hospitals and the doctors DO get paid. Even if the reimbursement doesn't cover all the bloated services, at the absurd rates they've created...THEY claim the difference as a loss against their taxes. THEY GET PAID, IN FULL, for helping the poor.
Anyone telling you otherwise is outright lying.
Gerrilea Added Dec 7, 2018 - 1:53am
Oh, here's a link that explains exactly how it works, I forgot to include it.
How do Hospitals Get Paid, a Primer
Private insurers pay hospitals predominantly on the basis of per-diems or fee-for-service schedules. On average these payments exceed the hospital’s cost of providing the underlying services. The profits built into these payments cover the losses hospitals book on serving Medicare and Medicaid patients, who are billed high prices but often do not pay their bills in full. Private insurers also feed the net profits that most for-profit and not-for-profit hospitals book.
opher goodwin Added Dec 7, 2018 - 8:41am
Yep - US Healthcare is an expensive scam.
Dino Manalis Added Dec 7, 2018 - 8:47am
 We should import prescription drugs; implement patent reform; cap medical malpractice compensation; streamline insurance bureaucracy/paperwork; and offer primary care in nurse-led clinics, pharmacies and other stores.  Additionally, hospitals; insurers; and diagnostics ought to be priave nonprofits to reduce costs and save people lots of money.
Thomas Sutrina Added Dec 7, 2018 - 8:55am
Gerrilea so we agree, "The Hospitals and the doctors DO get paid."  That is exactly why the costs are added to overhead which means that all the other patent are paying.   
It does not make sense that they take these service cost as a lost because this has been happening for decades.  If, Gerrilea your correct then every hospital that provides services would have gone bankrupt.
"A 1985 federal law requires emergency departments to stabilize and treat anyone entering their doors, regardless of their ability to pay.
But that doesn’t mean the uninsured can get treated for any ailment. . . . 
As a result, the uninsured are more likely to be contacted by collection agencies, as they face problems paying both medical and non-medical bills. One study, published in 2016 by the National Bureau of Economic Research, found that someone who goes into the hospital without insurance doubles her chances of filing for bankruptcy over the next four years.
For the bills that go unpaid, hospitals can try to compensate by charging other patients more. But that doesn’t happen as much as many people – including policymakers -- think."
Gerrilea, if the government pays in full then please provide a citation.
Thomas Sutrina Added Dec 7, 2018 - 9:00am
Continuation from the article above, " “This is not a trivial thing for a hospital to deal with,” Garthwaite said. While hospitals average 7% profit margins, uncompensated care costs can be more than 5% of revenue.
Hospitals do get help with the unpaid bills – from taxpayers.
The majority of hospitals are non-profits and are exempt from federal, state and local taxes if they provide a community benefit, such as charitable care. Hospitals also receive federal funding to offset some of the costs of treating the poor."
Gerrilea Added Dec 7, 2018 - 12:33pm
Thomas S--- They haven't gone bankrupt because people with insurance pay higher prices to more than cover any alleged losses helping the poor. 
And again they even write-off those alleged losses on their taxes.
George N Romey Added Dec 7, 2018 - 1:42pm
There is no "optimal" way to deliver healthcare.  Just like fire and police protection its logistically a nightmare to provide.  From everything I've read the delivery by Medicaid won't be materially worse than what one gets now, other than those with the so called "Cadillac plans" that our national politicians enjoy.
Publicly delivered healthcare will suck.  But it will suck the same but with the profit motive gone.  Also gone is a system designed to capture people and keep them in the system.  Sick people are profitable, healthy ones are not.  We need to rationalize healthcare to force people to take control of their bodies and health.  Notice most people don't leave their homes wide open for fear of theft.  Embedded is the belief the cops won't be able to do anything other than take a report.
ChetDude Added Dec 7, 2018 - 1:45pm
Thomas Sutrina:  As usual with those of you who believe the memes from Fake News sources, you are pretending that one tiny factor in a $3.4 Trillion system explains the entire system and why it costs twice as much as actual Health Care systems in civilized countries.
Your "excuse" is on the level of explaining the cost of a car being all because of the price one of the tail lights...
FYI: Even mentioning that low grade "intellect" and myopic (rich) one-trick pony, Ben Carson automatically devalues any attempt to discuss health care.  Since over 50% of USAmericans barely make enough (many DON'T make enough) to pay for rent, food and transportation expenses, where the hell are they supposed to get the money to save in their HSAs, hmmm?  Elitist bastards...
ChetDude Added Dec 7, 2018 - 1:48pm
PS Thomas: Your entire (republican/libertarian-lite) argument boils down to "If you can't PERSONALLY afford to pay for health care, you shouldn't get it.  So go die in a gutter somewhere!"
ChetDude Added Dec 7, 2018 - 1:57pm
Thomas: "The majority of hospitals are non-profits"
Again with the tail-light determining the cost of the car, eh?
"Non-Profit" does not mean they are immune from the massive fraud I describe in this article (did you read it?).  It also does NOT mean that they don't charge a surplus in order to continue operations, expand capacity, etc.  It only means they don't have to distribute any of their profits to "shareholders" (but instead pay exorbitant salaries and payment rates to their executives, surgeons, etc.)
"Non-profit" also does not mean that they aren't fixing prices since those are suspiciously the same as the "for-profit" hospitals in our corrupted system. 
Bottom line: If the car dealer is owned by a "Church" but sells the same car at the same bloated price as the capitalist car dealer across the street, the "consumer" still gets screwed the same.
ChetDude Added Dec 7, 2018 - 2:01pm
PPS: Thomas: Your entire (republican/libertarian-lite) argument also leaves out the tens of millions of folks in this country who HAVE NO CHOICE with their "feet" in my very rural area.  For instance, are we supposed to die in a ditch somewhere because it's "unprofitable" for the system to provide cardiac care on my island with 185,000 people on it?
John Minehan Added Dec 7, 2018 - 3:47pm
"This article described the 'Chargemaster,' a Top-Secret and ever pliable 'list of charges' that the bean counters and CFOs working at the RSC provider corporations use as the basis of their massive fraud'
Well, er, . . . no.
Every practice or institution has a "Charge Master." which is a list of its internal charge for each procedure or service.  That charge is that entity's Usual Customary and Reasonable ("UCR") charge, also sometimes referred to as its "Street Rate."
In a Discounted Fee For Service environment (most places outside of California) practices or institutions that participate ("par") with HMOs agree to a fee schedule which is a percentage of the Medicare Fee Schedule for that Catchment Area.  (Providers agree to a lower rate than their UCR if the participate with Medicare, who are supposed to get the Practices' or Institutions' best rate, a "most favored nation" clause). 
It isn't 'Top Secret' but is as confidential as  any entities pricing policy is as to its competitors for Antitrust reasons.  It also is something particular to each given practice or institution rather than something that exists "on high."  
John Minehan Added Dec 7, 2018 - 5:16pm
This is an overview of EMTALA ("Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act" codified at 42 USC Section 1385 dd) alluded to above..
John Minehan Added Dec 7, 2018 - 5:22pm
This may also be useful.
The Advisory Board is a consultancy used by many hospitals, especially for JCAHO inspections.
Thomas Sutrina Added Dec 7, 2018 - 6:00pm
ChetDude, I have been a consumer of the third party payer health care system for 60 years and can not recall once knowing the price of the service I was going to receive except for the present walk in clinics for getting a flue shot etc. 
It is well know that the price of services is determined by the big service providers like hospitals and the insurance company bargaining.  Medicare has a board that set prices and on that board are people from the service providers and insurance companies, another bargaining table.   
ChetDude I agree that the American system cost a lot more then the state health care systems.  The reason is simple. It is to the interest of insurance companies and service providers at the bargaining table to set a price as high as the customer can withstand and to do as many procedures as possible.   It is not in the interest to have health citizens.   This all explains the high cost.  We are in agreement that we need to change the present system.
The solution is the point where we disagree. 
Since we agree that the present system doesn't work and it cost to much then how is self interest of those at the bargain table to sent a high price, 'one tiny factor?'  I agree that many poor people can not purchase insurance on the individual account system since the government prevents the formation of co-ops to purchase insurance at a lower price.  This is to the advantage of insurance companies.  Your blaming me when we agree, doesn't make sense.
ChetDude, your a racist by attacking Dr. Ben Carson because only a racist would say this, "Ben Carson automatically devalues any attempt to discuss health care."  This is pure racism since HSA started in 2003 and Ben Carson is not on record to promote them at that time.  Your a racist for attacking a black presidential candidate.  ChetDude, go back and read my answer in this article.  I have answered your comment, "where the hell are they supposed to get the money to save in their HSAs."  As a racist you will not accept any solution from a black candidate, not intelligent enough  for you!!!
We only have to see the photos of lines in the USSR and the empty shelves in the USSR and now in Venezuela.  To know that a government controlled economy doesn't work so a government controlled health care system also doesn't work.
Free market system is well known to provide the most choices and the freedom to vote with your feet.  Choose the best product or service and at what price.  Only a racist like you ChetDude would dismiss it when it comes from a black man.  
ChetDude Added Dec 7, 2018 - 6:34pm
John: "It isn't 'Top Secret' but is as confidential as any entities pricing policy"
"Confidentiality" is close enough to "top secret" for corporations who run the remedial sick care industry.
Imagine stepping into Costco and there are NO prices on anything so you're forced to pick out something and then MUST pay whatever the "confidential" price is for it with NO ABILITY to go back and make another choice...
Thomas: I am glad we're in agreement that the current system is a massive fraud. 
We are NOT in agreement about how to fix it.  You seem to still entertain a form of entirely privatized payments (if you can afford them) in a corporate for-profit system essentially identical to the one we have and somehow the "magic hand" you guys believe in will take care of everything.  EVERY OTHER industrialized nation (almost all CAPITALIST) has rejected that delusion, seriously controls costs instead of letting the "magic fist" of the mythical "market" do it and as a consequence ALL of the people living in those nations receive BETTER Health Care at 1/2 the cost.  WHY CAN'T YOU GUYS ADMIT THAT???
And the people who use those systems know almost EXACTLY what they are going to have to pay and it ranges from ZERO to a few dollars!
And NONE of them did it with Calvinist, republican HSAs!  I guess those folks in every other major nation are a hell of a lot smarter and more compassionate than USAmericans, eh?
Objecting to Ben Carson's nonsense has everything to do with his limited political and social intelligence and the obvious pollution of his mind by an adolescent form of Ayn Randian/libertarian loonism and HAS NOT ONE F*CKING THING TO DO WITH HIS "RACE"!
I'm about as far from racist as you're going to find among white USAmericans.  For just one instance, I received some attention from J. Edgar Hoover's CoInTelPro back in the early 70s (hassled by the FBI) because I was an integral (and the only white) member of a Prison Reform Lobbying group. 
My NON-racist and ANTI-Racist cred probably goes back to before YOU WERE EVEN BORN.
And Thomas, if you ever again post another ad-hominem, bullsh*t racist comment like that one aimed at me, I will f*cking delete you, motherf*cker!
PS: When I was having my massive heart attack in June, I had no "vote with my feet"!  Health Care is one area where the PROFIT MOTIVE HAS NO GODDAMN PLACE!  You can't shop for "health care" or even "health care insurance" the way you can for a loaf of bread or a car, you f*cking idiot!
ChetDude Added Dec 7, 2018 - 6:40pm
And the profit motive has perverted even the type of care and the methods and procedures that deliver it in USAmerica.
Read all about how the greed and profit motive of major corporations perverts the Remedial Sick Care Industry from top to bottom and side to side:
John Minehan Added Dec 7, 2018 - 8:12pm
There used to be a "professional exception" to price fixing rules that was ended by a ruling pertaining to lawyers and a county bar minimum fee schedule.  Goldfarb v. Virginia State Bar, 421 U.S. 773 (1975).
Don't think of medical services as being like a fruit pie bought at Costco, but rather like a complex service, like household repairs.
You can get an estimate and also see if the provider takes your insurance as it stands.
Some things, a simple MRI, can probably have an easily quoted price.  Other things, less so.
Further, medical billing is something that has an almost Talmudic complexity as it is an attempt to classify an awesome array of morbidity and mortality (and a doctors' attempts to treat the former and avoid the latter) into a CPT and ICD-10 code system.    
John Minehan Added Dec 7, 2018 - 8:14pm
"And NONE of them did it with Calvinist, republican HSAs!'
Other than Singapore, which has one of the most admired Healthcare systems in the world and relies exclusively on HSAs.
John Minehan Added Dec 7, 2018 - 8:17pm
Should have been (and doctors' attempts to treat the former and avoid the latter)," of course. Sorry.
ChetDude Added Dec 7, 2018 - 8:21pm
Have you seriously tried to compare "health insurance"?
I'm afraid that when I was lying in the gurney after an 11 hour ride (2 ambulances and a helicopter with a LONG wait in an "out of network" ER for permission to transport) with an active, massive MI thanks to blockage in the LAD ("widow maker) artery in my heart, "shopping around" for the best estimate for THAT "household repair" was not an option.
Nor are there many options where I live for 'insurance'.  Since the 3rd option that used to exist is no longer available, I get to choose one of two "plans" now.  So I've opted for the OTHER plan with a DIFFERENT (now closer) "Network" of providers (an ONLY in America concept) that lets me go to the only OTHER major hospital (minimum of 4 hours away) but one that has a better reputation.
Follow the Money...
ChetDude Added Dec 7, 2018 - 8:29pm
John: the major source of the "complexity" of the system is the profit-motive that drives the corporations who run it.
C'mon, this really is easy stuff. 
As the other nations have done it it's:
Health Care should be a Human Right...
We'll find a way to provide it for everyone who lives in our country.
Unlike here where it started as a "benefit" provided by private employers to entice (higher paid/higher skilled) workers from OTHER employers and has remained a commodity for profit ever since.
John Minehan Added Dec 7, 2018 - 8:47pm
Generally, until the early 20th Century, it was a service provided by professionals on a fee-for-service basis, who recognized a need to provide some charity care.
There were some one-off things in the 19th Century, such as companies in remote areas employing doctors (made illegal by "corporate practice" laws in many places) or the employment of "Community Health Nurses" to spread simple care and knowledge of hygienic practices among the poor in cities. 
Some doctors grouped together (for example, The Group Health Cooperative of Puget Sound) and provided care for a monthly per member, per month fee) what started to be called HMOs in the 1970s).
Around the same time (the late 1920s, early 1930s) some unions (notably Teacher's unions in Texas) set up what came to be known as "Blue Cross" an indemnity insurance plan.
ChetDude Added Dec 7, 2018 - 10:19pm
I looked up the system in Singapore.  Since it's a VERY rich country, much richer than USAmerica (over $20,000 per year richer per capita), is a VERY tiny City State (1/2 the population of L.A.) and a very authoritarian one as well. 
Their system is based on Socialist Health Care.  The GOVERNMENT owns and runs the hospitals and clinics and that is the source of MOST of their health care cost savings and efficiency.
The people finance care with a mix of Medicare like contribution plans and mandatory "savings accounts" along with some subsidies for care that lower costs and are pegged to wealth.
It highly doubtful that their system would work in USAmerica.  If only because their government's SOCIALIST delivery system is only 1.8% of GDP and there's no way to sell a SOCIALIST delivery system in the neoliberal, vulture capitalist U.S. 
USAmerica's for-profit sick care industry is gobbling up over 17% of US GDP at present.
John Minehan Added Dec 7, 2018 - 11:07pm
Sort of
The HSAs are the key factor as everything else is high deductible catastrophic care insurance, much as Dr. Carson has advocated for.
Thomas Napers Added Dec 8, 2018 - 4:10am
From one side of your mouth you deride the healthcare insurance industry and from the other you support a bill that requires all Americans to have healthcare insurance. 
All I read is more anti-capitalist BS.  As capitalism has proven in every industry, when the free market is allowed to function, it produces efficiency.  Healthcare insurance is an industry that hasn’t been allowed to function freely for decades.  For starters, Medicare, Medicaid and Obamacare are all intrusions on the free market for healthcare insurance.  And I haven’t begun to mention all the mandates at the state level that serve to drive up cost and make private insurance more expensive.  
Thomas Sutrina Added Dec 8, 2018 - 7:42am
Again ChetDude a personal attacking , "Objecting to Ben Carson's nonsense has everything to do with his limited political and social intelligence and the obvious pollution of his mind by an adolescent form of Ayn Randian/libertarian loonism."   Your words not mine.
I have never said anything different so it did take quite a time to accept it, "Thomas: I am glad we're in agreement that the current system is a massive fraud. "
ChetDude Added Dec 8, 2018 - 3:34pm
Damn Straight I'm Anti-Capitalist!
I'd like to see my grandson inherit an environment that won't kill him...
ChetDude Added Dec 8, 2018 - 3:35pm
So what you're saying Mogg is "Give up, you're f*cked!"
ChetDude Added Dec 8, 2018 - 3:39pm
Thomas: I suggest we follow the lead of EVERY OTHER industrialized, affluent nation and provide effective, holistic, universal HEALTH CARE for every person.
NO OTHER COUNTRY ALLOWS THE "free market" TO RUN THEIR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.  As a result, theirs are better and cost 1/2 as much as ours...
The quickest way, most politically feasible to deal with the financing piece is HR676.
And then we can proceed with the process of squeezing the perversions of the profit-motive out of the rest of the overly expensive, 37th rate remedial sick care system...
ChetDude Added Dec 8, 2018 - 3:41pm
I wasn't personally attacking Ben Carson. 
As he's a public figure, I was describing his politics and his strange, delusional frame of reference and that he can be safely ignored...
Thomas Napers Added Dec 9, 2018 - 5:52am
I suggest we don’t follow the lead of every industrialized nation and continue to be the leader.  As a leader and proponent of capitalism, we’ve built the strongest economy in the world by far.  To be sure, our healthcare system is a mess, but that’s only because we’ve gradually put more people on government paid for insurance, rather than allowed the free market to work its magic.  You see, the desire to make a profit is why we have better products and services and the reason why Russians wear clogs. 
The healthcare bill Congress should pass is the one that allows people to buy catastrophic only coverage with high deductibles.  That type of insurance would make the day to day medical expenses be out of pocket and in our back pocket will be a pile of cash we used to have to spend for unnecessary medical stuff.  Sadly, Obamacare deemed those types of policies illegal. 
FacePalm Added Dec 9, 2018 - 6:57am
i agree with your initial premise, that healthcare is a massive fraud(the architect of D'OhBamacare said as much when he congratulated Americans for their stupidity in believing it could work), but perhaps for different reasons.
Did you ever read Saul Alinsky's rules for creating a socialist America?  A "USSA," if you will?  Check this out, and tell me what you think:
1) Healthcare – Control healthcare and you control the people.
2) Poverty – Increase the poverty level as high as possible; poor people are easier to control and will not fight back if you are providing everything for them to live.
3) Debt – Increase the debt to an unsustainable level. That way, you are able to increase taxes and this will produce more poverty.
4) Gun control – Remove people’s ability to defend themselves from the government. That way, you are able to create a police state.
5) Welfare – Take control of every aspect of people’s lives (food, housing and income).
6) Education – Take control of what people read and listen to; take control of what children learn in school.
7) Religion – Remove the belief in God from the government and schools.
8) Class warfare – Divide the people into the wealthy and the poor. This will cause more discontent and it will be easier to take from (tax) the wealthy with the support of the poor.
So, do you detect a whiff of the stench of democrat political policies over the last few decades in the above, or no?
George N Romey Added Dec 9, 2018 - 9:37am
I'd say that doctrine is the mantra of corporate America.  The fleecing and exploitation of poor people is profitable indeed.  One of the fastest growing businesses? Payday lenders, title lenders.  They are springing up everywhere because they are so damn profit.  Just 30 years ago they all would have been thrown into jail for thievery.  Today they are coddled, encouraged and protected by the politicians they funnel millions to.
With so many working poor, most clueless as what keeps them there payday lenders will have a wealth of a dedicated, required customer base.
Thomas Sutrina Added Dec 9, 2018 - 12:18pm
George R., FacePalm, and ChatDude I pulled up Marx Communist Manifesto, Fabian Socialist goals, Saul Alinsky’s 12 Rules for Radicals, and Franklin D. Roosevelt's Second Bill of Rights and reviewed them.  I recall that Whittaker Chambers said of the New Deal, "It was a revolution by bookkeeping and lawmaking. In so far as it was successful, the power of politics had replaced the power of business," that Hillary Rodham's political science thesis May 1969  is on Saul Alinsky, he offered Hillary a job upon graduation,  Obama's mentor FBI known communist Frank Davis, and he working for Alinsky's Chicago organization.  That Forbes defines both as Fabian Socialist and after the 2008 DNC's Hitler like gathering in Denver, Alinsky’s son, L. David Alinsky, credits Obama for “learning his lesson well” from the Communist guru, his falther.  Finally I personally noted that Health care was the last 'right' not achieved on FDR's list when Obama Took office. To complete FDR's list is to truly 'transform America.'  
ChatDude,  George R. and FacePalm we all agree that the pre 2010 third party health care system that was put in place during the 1940's under a Democratic trifecta government, and then throwing  ACA on top of it after 2010 only increased the mess.  Obama got elected on fixing health care but the insurance companies helped author ACA that Pelosi  campaigned, Reed pushed through, and Obama signed during the lamb duck 2010/2011 session what has proven to not fix health care, make it worse.
High cost for the service provided has only continued to grow since the 1940's and the introduction by another trifecta Democratic government in 1965 of Medicare and Medicaid only added to the problem.  The solution that Pelosi again champions and Reed's replacement Schumer champions is 'Medicare for All' :  state managed health care, government run health care.  America will be  joining the rest of the western Democratic Socialist governments health care approach.  Putting a completion check on Marx Communist Manifesto, Fabian Socialist goals, and Roosevelt's Second Bill of Right.
Thomas Sutrina Added Dec 9, 2018 - 12:35pm
ChatDude and George R.  I would like you to explain since both of your clearly state that the present 'third party payer' approach is a mess.  It has only become worse every years since its conception in the 40's.  Why will it suddenly become a shining sucess  when we take a component that is part of the failure, MEDICARE and model the whole system after it?   
Medicare has in common the problems heard from all the western Democratic Socialist governments health care national systems.  Please explain in detail why we would not suffer the same problems?   What is different and explain them in detail.   
I have put down the reason why a third party payments system always lead to high costs: there clients are paying and those at the bargaining table all get a percentage cut.  I have stated that Medicare prices are determined by a board with the service providers advocates as members, which obviously always believe that the services they provide are more valuable then the present amount paid.  Also on that board are government representatives.  The amount of taxes they collect for health care is governed by the willingness of tax payers to pay.  Since on average the tax payers are healthy they do not want to be overcharged for the services they believe they will need.  Thus the amount that can be collected without a revolt, not getting re-elected, is less then needed to achieve the promises made to get re-elected. 
All western Democratic Socialist governments health care national systems suffer from these same dynamics and everyone of them ration health care disproportionately with the smallest groups of heath care needs or the elderly that the general population perceived as living a full life and are at the end getting the short end of the stick, less heath care.
The alternative is a free market system that Dr. Ben Carson and others have outlined.  It is divided health care in to two parts the general range of health care that is consumed with sufficient time to shop around  and catastrophic health care where need and complexity make shopping unlikely.   
Spontaneous order in a free market as always drives the first part that has shopping around for services to the optimum solutions.  This I believe is an uncertainty that causes many to choose certainty of the state saying they know the optimum solution, but experience shows certainty of the state is their desire and not a fact.  Experience from history shows that the statement of certainty by the state is ~95% of the time wrong.
Welfare has always been a component of the American society and accepted by government as needed to sustain confidence it the government.  At the start the responsibility for welfare was local and it has slowly become a responsibility that has moved up the pyramid.   Health care has always been a part of the welfare responsibility.   As our ability to effect health have improved with technology  the responsibility of health has been added to welfare.   
I am not going to accept the argument that welfare will now suddenly ignore health care as a responsibility.   Clearly the facts do not support such a statement.    Your only arguing about the success of the present programs to provide health care.  This discussion is about the success of providing health care.  It is assumed that no area will be ignored.    The discussion can not presume to know the success of any approach.  History is the only data we have.  
ChetDude Added Dec 9, 2018 - 10:27pm
Facepalm.  What you describe is NOT the Fox News abridged, right-wing meme version of an alleged "Saul Alinsky program"***
But is rather the process described in detail in the Powell Memo of 1971 which was followed (along with the application of billions of dollars of right-wing money and final buy-in by the corporate democrat wing) and has resulted in the New Gilded Age of inequality and potential Planet Death that would shame Gould and Rockefeller and that we're now experiencing...
Not "communist" or "Socialist" but CAPITALIST:
The Powell Memo: A Call-to-Arms for Corporations

The Powell Memo (also known as the Powell Manifesto)first published August 23, 1971
***  FACT CHECK: FALSE  'This list is not something taken from the actual writings of Saul Alinsky, nor does it even sound like something he would have written (e.g., the line about “controlling health care” is anachronistic for his era, and the idea of “increasing the poverty level as high as possible” is the very antithesis of what Alinsky worked to achieve). This list is simply a modern variant of the decades-old, apocryphal target="comm">Communist Rules for Revolution piece that was originally passed along without attribution until Alinsky’s name became attached to it (presumably because someone out there thought it sounded like something Alinsky might have written).' 
Another name for it is total bullsh*t...
But thanks for playing...
Thomas: Try to learn something before posting again...
FacePalm Added Dec 10, 2018 - 10:18am
Dude, you wasted my time.
First, i read through every damn thing you linked, and nothing in it related to healthcare AT ALL.  The WORD wasn't even mentioned.  WTF?
Second, Snopes is a notoriously unreliable source, as the owner apparently lies with impunity, so far...and at the behest of a notorious Nazi collaborator who funds the site, another sycophant/toady to NWO/OWG plots, a despicable tool being used to implement naked tyranny.
That said, i found a few other sites that also state that Alinsky didn't write the list of 8 items i listed earlier, but just consider each one and if indeed the implementation of them would fit the socialist agenda, in the light of the following:
'Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed.' 
-Sarah Brady, Chairman of Handgun Control to Senator Howard Metzanbaum
'The National Educator', January 1994 Page 3
The knee-jerk reaction to EVERY mass-shooting is for democrat Oath-breakers and their horns in MSM to call for more "restrictions" on lawful firearm owners who never did a damn thing wrong...but Trump managed to expose the gun-grabber agenda when he invited multiple democrats to the WH, whereupon the D's openly revealed their intent(video of Feinstein rubbing her greedy, grasping hands together like the criminal she is) to take them ALL, after which Trump said he'd NEVER work to revoke the 2nd.  Good, but only part of the aforementioned 8-point agenda, there being several fronts in the war against Americans.
You must not have a great understanding of the Constitution; that's ok, most people don't.  Here's a sampling of past president's vetoes who actually DID honor the Supreme Law:
"I cannot find any authority in the Constitution for public charity, ...[it] would be contrary to the letter and the spirit of the Constitution and subversive to the whole theory upon which the Union of these States is founded."
-- Franklin Pierce(1804-1869) U.S. President
Source: 1854, he vetoed a bill to help the mentally ill
"I feel obliged to withhold my approval of the plan to indulge in benevolent and charitable sentiment through the appropriation of public funds...I find no warrant for such an appropriation in the Constitution.
-- Grover Cleveland(1837-1908) 22nd & 24th US President
Source: In 1887 when vetoing an appropriation to help drought-stricken counties in Texas
"The constitutionality and propriety of the Federal Government assuming to enter into a novel and vast field of legislation, namely, that of providing for the care and support of all those … who by any form of calamity become fit objects of public philanthropy. ... I cannot find any authority in the Constitution for making the Federal Government the great almoner of public charity throughout the United States. To do so would, in my judgment, be contrary to the letter and spirit of the Constitution and subversive of the whole theory upon which the Union of these States is founded."
-- Franklin Pierce(1804-1869) U.S. President
Source: May 3, 1854, President vetoed a bill
Then, too, there's Davy Crockett Gets a Constitutional Lesson, an interesting and enlightening read.  i have several more citations of presidential vetoes in this vein, but didn't want to go overboard.  Hopefully, it's YOUR turn to learn something.
Thomas Sutrina Added Dec 10, 2018 - 12:10pm
ChetDude, are you kidding Just because you can not come up with a real answers to my few question you want to flip your lack of knowledge on me, <<Thomas: Try to learn something before posting again...>>  
You need to also learn something before you post.  So let us go back to and see where we agree.  PS that is knowledge 'learned something.'
FacePalm Added Dec 9, 2018 - 6:57am <<Chet-
i agree with your initial premise, that healthcare is a massive fraud(the architect of D'OhBamacare said as much when he congratulated Americans for their stupidity in believing it could work), but perhaps for different reasons.>>

ChetDude Added Dec 8, 2018 - 3:39pm
<<NO OTHER COUNTRY ALLOWS THE "free market" TO RUN THEIR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.  As a result, theirs are better and cost 1/2 as much as ours...>>
ChetDude Added Dec 7, 2018 - 6:34pm
<<Thomas: I am glad we're in agreement that the current system is a massive fraud. >>
So what do I 'have to learn????'  
ChetDude this is a very simple question and and as above points out you and I have already learned the.  So just answer the question ChetDude.   
<<I would like you to explain since both of your clearly state that the present 'third party payer' approach is a mess.  It has only become worse every years since its conception in the 40's.  Why will it suddenly become a shining success  when we take a component that is part of the failure, MEDICARE and model the whole system after it? >> 
 Doesn't take much examination to realize that as I said <<Medicare has in common the problems heard from all the western Democratic Socialist governments health care national systems.  Please explain in detail why we would not suffer the same problems?   What is different and explain them in detail. >>  ChetDude basically the same question but not giving you a simple out of claiming what isn't true as true.  You know insanity is repeating what doesn't work and thinking it will work this time.
Finally how about explaining why the only economic system that actually cause significant growth in a nations economy.  Free Market system.  It is obviously different then how Medicare is run.
ChetDude Added Dec 10, 2018 - 5:45pm
HSA's are not a solution to our systemic problem...a 37th rate remedial sick care as commodity system.
USAmerican "Medicare", as perverted over the last 40 years by corporate lobbyists and their friends in Congress as just a much more efficiently administered "insurance corporation", has to operate as a component of and has little control over the systemic problem, the privatized, corporate, for-profit sick care industry.
Medicare as described in HR676 is a different breed of cat.  Have you checked it out yet?  It's modeled on some of the most successful systems on the planet with an "American(sic)" twist.  It also gives us an opportunity to control that industry as every other major industrialized country already does.
There is NO "free market" in USAmerica.  In fact, there's no such thing nor has there EVER been a "free market" - except maybe some inter-tribal trade in stone hammers, berries, seeds and spears.
The rules of the game are written by the employees of the Owner Class in order to promote wealth and privilege of the few.  And here in USAmerica have been made significantly worse for most people over the last 40 years - thus the new Gilded Age that makes the last one seem egalitarian.
HR676 is an antidote designed to cure one symptom of that reality.
There will be a "Free Market" on the same day that someone invents an actual "perpetual motion machine".
ChetDude Added Dec 10, 2018 - 5:46pm
What's wrong with the systems in other capitalist countries?
FacePalm Added Dec 10, 2018 - 10:07pm
Watch this.
It's a cartoon.
The problem isn't capitalism so much as it is CRONY capitalism, where their objective of "securing government capture" has been realized.
But behind that, there's the NWO/OWG cretins, who use any and all isms and ists toward achieving their goal of a world-wide tyranny by unelected(and therefore, accountable to no man) bureaucrats in banking and corporate systems to run the world, e.g.:
"We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years.  It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years.  But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries."
-- David Rockefeller, (1915- ) Internationalist billionaire, CFR kingpin, founder of the Trilateralist Commission, World Order Godfather June 1991 Baden, Germany. 
Source: Bilderberger Meeting, Baden, Germany
"The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes, I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent."
- Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets.
Then, there's this, revealed by Senator Lindbergh long ago:
“We (the bankers) must proceed with caution and guard every move made, for the lower order of people are already showing signs of restless commotion. Prudence will therefore show a policy of apparently yielding to the popular will until our plans are so far consummated that we can declare our designs without fear of any organized resistance.
Organizations in the United States should be carefully watched by our trusted men, and we must take immediate steps to control these organizations in our interest or disrupt them.
At the coming Omaha convention to be held July 4, 1892, our men must attend and direct its movement or else there will be set on foot such antagonism to our designs as may require force to overcome. This at the present time would be premature. We are not yet ready for such a crisis. Capital must protect itself in every possible manner through combination (conspiracy) and legislation.
The courts must be called to our aid, debts must be collected, bonds and mortgages foreclosed as rapidly as possible.
When, through the process of law, the common people have lost their homes, they will be more tractable and easily governed through the influence of the strong arm of the government applied to a central power of imperial wealth under the control of the leading financiers. People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. History repeats itself in regular cycles. This truth is well known among our principle men who are engaged in forming an imperialism of the world. While they are doing this, the people must be kept in a state of political antagonism.
The question of tariff reform must be urged through the organization known as the Democratic Party, and the question of protection with the reciprocity must be forced to view through the Republican Party.
By thus dividing voters, we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us, except as teachers to the common herd. Thus, by discrete actions, we can secure all that has been so generously planned and successfully accomplished.”
Revealed by Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. to the U.S. Congress sometime between 1907 and 1917.
Pay attention to the bolded sentence above, and you'll possibly begin to see the "divide and conquer" strategy being employed in every kind of media platform.
Then consider the possibility that you, by being anti-capitalist without explaining your specific complaints, may have been manipulated, your own self, into "fighting over questions of no importance."
Thomas Sutrina Added Dec 11, 2018 - 8:33am
ChatDude, how about a citation backing up this what I believe is a GUESS <<HSA's are not a solution to our systemic problem...a 37th rate remedial sick care as commodity system.>>  Since we do not have prices set by spontaneous order, the free market at work, then the prices that HSA patent pay is the same or those that are paid by a third party.  Do not get an accurate measurement.
Again ChatDude, give us the citation for more of what I believe is another guess << USAmerican "Medicare", as perverted over the last 40 years by corporate lobbyists and their friends in Congress as just a much more efficiently administered "insurance corporation", has to operate as a component of and has little control over the systemic problem, the privatized, corporate, for-profit sick care industry.>>
So tell my who Medicare is not a third party paying system and that the price set by the Medicare board does not contain people with their own priorities. <<Medicare as described in HR676 is a different breed of cat.>>  As I said service providers are on the board Their goal is to keep the price high.  So what happens is what occurs in all State run health care system.  New technology is seldom if ever paid for by Medicare.  Patents that have rare sicknesses do not get help from Medicare because often it is new technology.   We have the example of the two British two year olds' that died because the state refused to relinquish control to the parents.   Doesn't see to be a different 'cat.'
Just the facts ChatDude.  Before 1940 America has a free market medical system.  This is bull, <<There is NO "free market" in USAmerica.  In fact, there's no such thing nor has there EVER been a "free market">>
<<Post World War I, the cost of healthcare became a more pressing matter as hospitals and physicians began to charge more than the average citizen could afford. Seeing that this was becoming an issue, a group of teachers created a program through Baylor University Hospital where they would agree to pre-pay for future medical services (up to 21 days in advance). The resulting organization was not-for-profit and only covered hospital services. It was essentially the precursor to Blue Cross.>>
<<Stabilization Act of 1942, which was written to fight inflation by limiting wage increases.
Since U.S. businesses were prohibited from offering higher salaries, they began looking for other ways to recruit new employees as well as incentivizing existing ones to stay. Their solution was the foundation of target="_blank">employer-sponsored health insurance as we know it today. Employees enjoyed this benefit, as they didn’t have to pay taxes on their new form of compensation and they were able to secure healthcare for themselves and their families. After the war ended, this practice continued to spread as veterans returned home and began looking for work.>>   Thus ChatDude  by default the free market was the method before 1942.  
<<When John F. Kennedy (1961-1963) was sworn in as the 35th President of the United States, he wasted no time at all on a healthcare plan for senior citizens.  . . . 
He [LBJ] picked up where Kennedy left off with a senior citizen’s health plan. He proposed an extension and expansion of the Social Security Act of 1935, as well as the target="_blank">Hill-Burton Program (which gave government grants to medical facilities in need of modernization, in exchange for providing a “reasonable” amount of medical services to those who could not pay).
target="_blank">Johnson’s plan focused solely on making sure senior and disabled citizens were still able to access affordable healthcare, both through physicians and hospitals.>>
ChetDude Added Dec 11, 2018 - 9:22pm
Before 1940 USAmerica DID NOT have a "free market" health care system.
The AMA and the private insurance industry have had their thumbs on the scale since the early 1900s.
Now if you're talking about the "free market", unregulated snake oil salesmen in the Old West, I think it's a stretch to call it "Health Care" -- just as it's a stretch to call remedial sick care for profits a "Health Care System" when compared to the civilized world...
There's NO SUCH THING as a "free market" the way you fantasize it...
Thomas Sutrina Added Dec 12, 2018 - 8:43am
This is from the Washington Monthly about Medicare.  It tells us why Medicare for all is a disaster because today's Medicare suffers the same problem as other national health care system and isn't even for all.
<< For more than a decade the federal government has borrowed to pay for the rising cost of Medicare. Debt-financing of Medicare will increase sharply as the population over 65 doubles from 2010 to 2030 and the number of beneficiaries over 85—with the greatest medical needs—triples. . . . President Lyndon Johnson and congressional leaders who created Medicare never intended to use debt to fund the program. [it is a Bismark 'pay-as-you-go' system for pensions.  history shows that these system are used to provide welfare and always pay out more then what is collected in taxes] The original 1965 legislation raised payroll taxes to finance Medicare Part A (hospitalization insurance) and set premiums for Medicare Part B (physicians’ fees and outpatient services) at a level covering half of its costs. President Johnson assured Ways and Means Committee Chairman Wilbur Mills that budget priorities could be arranged to make room for sufficient general revenues to fund the other half of the cost of Medicare Part B. Yet soon it became difficult to fit Medicare’s cost within a balanced budget. "
Historically when government doesn't have enough money to pay for services they cut them and say this is the new normal.   ChetDude we both know that fraud and corruption is a big problem also in government services, and as I mentioned the board that sets the price includes service providers or third party payers which have no incentive to reduce the price.  It is a disaster waiting to happen.   
I am waiting for your citations to support your position.  Bring them on. 
Cliff M. Added Dec 12, 2018 - 9:26am
Today on Drudge/Zero hedge there is an article explaining some of the reasons for the yellow vest revolt in France. It say's one of the reasons is the government is trying to slowly turn one of the best healthcare countries in the world into a privatized for profit situation. Taking tax payer provided healthcare away slowly and replacing it slowly with profit motivated/privatized plans to fill the gaps.France currently has a universal plan that covers 85% of normal costs and covers 100% of incurred costs that are terminal.
FacePalm Added Dec 13, 2018 - 5:36am
Before 1940 USAmerica DID NOT have a "free market" health care system.
Back in the day, prior to the formation of the AMA, FDA, and etc., it was pretty free-wheeling.  Heroin and cocaine, among other things, were widely prescribed.
The AMA and the private insurance industry have had their thumbs on the scale since the early 1900's.

Yeah, that Morris Fishbein was a 100% creep, thief, and extortionist.  The number of cures he personally torpedoed was enormous, and then he often went after those who were CURING PEOPLE for "practicing medicine without a license."  Raymond Royal Rife was among them, and part of his story is told at the link.
ChetDude Added Dec 13, 2018 - 4:30pm
Thomas: Please clean out your ears. (or your eyes or open your "mind")...
I've already explained how and why current USAmerican Medicare (which I have) is perverted by the profit motive that drives the last for-profit, PRIVATIZED, corporate, remedial sick care industry in the industrialized world.
You have posted NOTHING that refutes any of my fact-based contentions...
ChetDude Added Dec 13, 2018 - 4:36pm
For those of us who are advocating for Health Care in the United States.
There was a fairly decent article posted at Vox that compares and contrasts the two ACTUAL Health Care plans (Sanders - Senate and Jayapal - House Medicare for All) vs. the poison pills that corporate democrats in the pay of the sick care industry are trying to push to keep us from achieving Universal, Comprehensive, Affordable, Effective Health Care...
'We read Democrats’ 8 plans for universal health care'
It's also important the the Senate and House versions be aligned to make one better bill out of those two excellent proposals...
ChetDude Added Dec 14, 2018 - 4:09pm
Update: 12/14/18:
Democrats should focus on Medicare for All.
By Wendell Potter, former Executive in Cigna Insurance corporation.
"It’s time for Democrats to stop proposing health care reform that relies on insurance companies to play fair. After two decades in the for-profit health insurance industry, I can assure you they never will. They have no interest in doing anything that might in any way jeopardize profits. Their only interest is delivering profits to their shareholders. From that perspective, the status quo is very profitable. For everyone else, not so much."
HR676 coupled with the best features of the Senate bill...
ChetDude Added Dec 15, 2018 - 6:39pm
Thomas: I already did an independent article (above).  I can't be held responsible if you can't read and comprehend written English or can't handle the Truth.
And I posted a further reinforcement of my arguments written by a former EXECUTIVE FROM THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY -- whose job back then was denying care to increase profits...and who has redeemed himself since then.
And are you familiar with the logical fallacy of "shoot the messenger".  Just because you don't like the people who deliver the Truth doesn't negate it.
ChetDude Added Dec 15, 2018 - 9:01pm
Thomas:  Your last two posts were a fact-free ad-hominem slur which was irrelevant to the discussion and another lie alleging that "Sanders is getting rich" from proposing Progressive solutions...he makes a comfortable middle-class living thanks to his salary as a Senator...Punto...

I've deleted them.  And I will delete any further posts from you (or anyone else) at my articles that do not present any facts, figures or counter-argument.  You don't have to agree with me but post something substantive or it will be deleted.

Thomas Sutrina Added Dec 15, 2018 - 11:45pm
In this email list of comments their are your two older articles and a new one.  They all are related and after a few comments the differences are lost.  So I am going to comment on the most recent.  
We need a national healthcare plan!
by Disqlosure Dec 15, 2018 - 6:01am
George N Romey Added Dec 16, 2018 - 10:11am
Of course healthcare is a massive fraud.  Its a massive waste. You don[t get much "insurance" with healthcare insurance.  You do get people at the C level making hundreds of millions and politicians kissing their ass for political campaign contributions.  You do get sell outs like Obama.  You do get some of the most expensive medical care in the world.  You might get 5 minutes with a harried, stressed and frustrated doctor that spends 80% of his time dealing with the healthcare insurance bureaucracy.  Taking care of patients is his side job.
You do get a system that addicts people to drugs, encourages bad health practices and sucks people into a corrupt system for life.  You do get very irrational decision making like keeping some 90 year old geezer alive that should have been allowed to naturally die as nature intended.
Yeah, in other words with the current for profit system you get massive fraud.