Tribute and Diplomacy

Tribute and Diplomacy
  • 451
  • 120
  • 10

My Recent Posts

In ancient times, when a state (like a city) found a horde of invaders at its wall/gate it had a few options.  Often the entire purpose of the wall and gates was so that they could withstand the siege.  Of course, that plan depended greatly on 1) the quality of the wall/gate and 2) the control of subversives within the city who would be all to happy to open said gate.

 

Every now and then the horde offers another option...

 

History:

Evil men throughout history have sought to extort a bounty from victims through the contrivance of tribute.

 

♦ Romans (as their Empire deteriorated) paid barbarians to not attack Roman territory or citizens.  History shows us just how well that worked out in the long run.

 

♦ Muhammad (through Islam) called the practice "jizya".  It was/is little more than paying protection money to organized "religious" war lords. 

 

Historically, the US in its early days had to pay the Barbary pirates (Islam) not to seize American ships and crew in Mediterranean trade routes.  We did this... until... we managed to build a navy (which took decades) and then said, "no more".  The second line of "The Marines' Hymn" ("To the shores of Tripoli") refers to that great moment in history.

 

This (American finally dealing with the Barbary Mohammedans) was a perfect example of diplomacy.  Diplomacy being the art of saying "nice doggy" until you find a rock.

 

♦ Recently and locally (to Texas), did you know the Woodlands (a community just north of Houston) pays tribute to Houston.  In return for cash, Houston agrees not to annex them.  $16 million dollars up front (back in 2007) and $45 million over 30 years.  What a bargain.

 

Of course, we could go on and on concerning this all so human practice of outright thievery by another name.

 

 

Today:

I've often said there is nothing new under the sun.  Humanity (on the whole) may change the means and nuances but we repeat our nature and history with regularity.

 

The US has seen in recent times an invasion fueled by corrupt oligarchy, militarizes, and crime syndicates to the south and corrupt politicians (previously referred to as "subversives") within our own borders (Republicans want cheap labor and Democrats new voters).

 

Now another wave of 5000+ people sit in Tijuana ready to breach our border; claiming rights, privileges, and debts… with no responsibilities.  Subversives have organized, guided and continue to support their efforts.  Subversives also use our courts to ensure that if any invader succeeds in breaching the border the systems helps them stay and blend into the existing populace.  These subversives will do it again when these useful peasants are processed (one way or another).  Their goal is... a successful invasion and "fundamental change" of American culture and politics.

 

But back to the main topic… tribute.

 

Exposing the character of some within the "caravan" currently in Tijuana; a compromise was recently proposed by what I'm sure is one of several factions in "La Caravana".  Their demands were clearly spelled out in a petition delivered to the US consulate.

 

The US simply needs to pay tribute (some call it reparations) to every person in the caravan, THEN they, in return, will leave us in peace.  The price tag?  $50,000 per person.  The time frame?  We have 72 hours to comply (as of Monday 12/10).  There was no mention as to what happens if/when the time is up.

 

It's Our Fault:

"It may seem like a lot of money to you.  But it is a small sum compared to everything the United States has stolen from Honduras." -- Spokesman Alfonso Guerreo Ulloa

 

You see.  It's our fault that Honduras is a shit hole of corruption and crime.  I'm sure the US is responsible for all shit holes in South America and elsewhere.

 

 

The problem with Honduras is that the rulers (oligarchy), military, and crime syndicates are intertwined... and the people are unarmed peasants.  It's kinda what happens when the power of self-determination (via a well-armed people's militia) is removed from the equation.  Tyrants the world over know this simple truth.

 

Now... if we, the US, literally disarmed the peasants... I would tend to agree with Mr. Ulloa.  And who knows what happened during various "Democratic" administrations.  But, short of that, you dumb-asses should have known better (and likely don’t even know better now).

 

We Could Fix It:

We (the US) could, at great expense, help the people of Honduras by removing ALL those bad elements; but then we'd be hated and denounced as imperialists.  (And note that Mr. Ulloa and the rest of those demanding tribute also demanded that the U.S. remove Honduran President Orlando Hernandez from office.)

 

We (the US) could also, at great expense, send more aid to Honduras; but then it would just be stolen by... the rulers, military and crime syndicates.

 

No... we (the US) cannot do for the Hondurans what needs to be done.  The US cannot do for the Hondurans what they will not do for themselves... determine how they will be governed.  We could help in that regard, but why?  Why waste the effort when the spark of self-determination is obviously not there? 

 

If Alfonso Guerreo Ulloa was a man… he would humbly request, beg even, for help so that HE and fellow Hondurans could remove the Honduran dictator and the other corrupt elements that make his country a shit hole.  After that, He would ask for help in forming a government that protected life and liberty; NOT depend on us to do it for them.

 

But, No.  Instead, what does this asshole request, no… demand?  Tribute.  Reparations.

 

What You're Owed:

Instead we see the spark of "give me"... "you own me"...  "Pay us tribute and we will go away... until next time... when the price will double..."

 

To which we should again reply... "Nice doggy."

Comments

Thomas Sutrina Added Dec 12, 2018 - 11:07pm
Great start and then applied it to the caravan reason for banging at our doors.  Who paid for the caravan because it is clear that it was in the interest of some group or person to have them come.  One very likely partner is the drug cartels in Mexico and the other is groups in the home country trying to get money. 
 
The proper answer is to not pay the extortion, but we do not have politicians that serve the interest of voters.  If we did the wall would have been built 30 years ago when the bill passed to build it but after multiple tries and multiple bills to build a wall were funded.   That is the clear statement of the truth.  We are told a lie.  
 
Trump will again become one of those that have lied to us.  He chose to sign two Omnibus bills without funds to build the wall.  He knew the history of funding a wall and he knew that the wall was a major reason why he was elected.  This lamb duck bill to fund the last 20% of government is too little too late.  A shut down will extend into the new congress and then the House will pull the original bill.  
 
Revolutions seldom produce a stable government that is less corrupt then the one it replaces and the situation in central American is such that their is a zero change.  So all money needs to be cut off and then both Russia and China will put their money into the regions as they are doing through out the Americas.  The level of tyranny will increase because that is what China and Russia want allies.  
 
What happened to the Monroe Doctrine?  The self interest of the international corporation, the swamp and the 'living Constitution' (no Constitution) movement.  
 
Mexico ruling class are not being murdered by the drug cartels so they gang war at the US border and the drug trade and illegal immigration is a bonus to their economy.  The drug cartels wanted the caravan to kill the effort to build a wall.  The Mexican government choose to help them.   
 
Trump is a pawn in this battle he listens to the GOP leaders and the party strategist.   How obscured is that since they have a poor record. 
 
So we got one supreme court judge from the original list and the second from the GOP RINO list.  This week were were shown that he is a RINO and the is part of the minority faction in the nation that has gained control of the government. 
 
No wall, no repeal of ACA which is why so many House GOP representative retired.  Six years of lying is a millstone around the GOP politicians necks.   The freedom caches continuous to buckle at every test where their votes actually count.  They know that like Ted Cruz the GOP RINOs will use the swamp war chest to defeat them. 
 
The problem is that they can not run of buckling.  They are in a catch 22.  To win the conservatives  and Trump need to risk everything.  They need to say that their word and honor and even the risk of jail is more important then a seat in government.   Do the right thing and votes will come.  They do not have faith.  They need to stick their fingers in the spear hole.   
TexasLynn Added Dec 12, 2018 - 11:22pm
Thomas... good assessment of just how screwed we are.  Being the eternal realist (and pessimist), I never really doubted it.  I don't know how serious Trump was about all this.  I never had any doubts that the GOP was never going to be part of the solution.
 
Trumps only real hope (of keeping his promises) is a policy of scorched earth.  He showed a little fire in the belly with his meeting with Schumer and Pelosi.  Pense looked like a deer in the headlights.  Trump?  I doubt he'll pull the trigger.  We'll see.
FacePalm Added Dec 13, 2018 - 1:17am
Tex-
Indeed we will.
i just heard that Putin has flown several Russian bombers in to Venezuela, and the latter has agreed to step up oil production; China is aiding the Venezuelan dictator to set up a surveillance state akin to their own, complete with Big Brother monitoring and "social scores" with penalties for disobedience - however slight - to gov't dictates.  This system is being eyed with great delight by the NWO/OWG cretins, who intend to see it's world-wide implementation asap.
 
As to the ransom demands of the Hondurans, i think we can rest assured that there will not be any payments forthcoming; as seen by the case of Stephanie Clifford(Stormy), extortion demands paid simply set the stage for further ones down the line, so that's not happening.
 
i believe that many of the republican "retirees" left for other reasons, like they were compromised and Trump offered them a deal like "gtfo, and we won't prosecute."
 
i'm still waiting for the hammer to fall on the Klin-tons; last i heard, several whistleblowers on their foundation have come forward, and at least 2 planeloads of docs have been seized from there, so perhaps the "pay-to-play" AND the Uranium One are about to make headlines, hopefully before the end of the year; 'twould make an excellent Christmas present for Americans, but be a well-deserved lump of coal in the stockings of a former power-couple.
The Burghal Hidage Added Dec 13, 2018 - 8:30am
Curious isn’t it? Everything wrong with where they come is our fault.... and yet they MUST come here. 
 
You could put an end to this real quick. If they are crossing outside of proper channels just shoot the sons o bitches! 
Steel Breeze Added Dec 13, 2018 - 8:34am
seems like the time for a well armed(regulated) militia......
The Burghal Hidage Added Dec 13, 2018 - 8:44am
For that and a host of other issues SB
George N Romey Added Dec 13, 2018 - 8:48am
The more they come the more they are open to abuse here.  For example, there's a scam going on in Broward and Miami Dade counties here in South Florida.  Parents are receiving an email in Spanish telling them that their children must begin to pay $300 a year to ride the school bus.  We know that in the US most public school districts provide free bus transportation to students.
 
The parents here illegally don't know any better.  So they take $300 of their hard earned dollars (usually from a low paid job, often under the table cash) and send it to the crooks.  In the meantime legal parents that speak English could call the school and find out if this is legit.  
 
BTW, the people carrying out this crime are themselves illegal immigrants.
Leroy Added Dec 13, 2018 - 8:51am
"The US simply needs to pay tribute (some call it reparations) to every person in the caravan, THEN they, in return, will leave us in peace.  The price tag?  $50,000 per person.  The time frame?  We have 72 hours to comply (as of Monday 12/10).  There was no mention as to what happens if/when the time is up."
 
I'm sure our liberal friends see it as a bargain.  Indeed, it would be if that were the end.  But, no, we would see neverending herds lined up for their payoff.  
 
Governments such as theirs give colonialism a good name.  
 
"You could put an end to this real quick. If they are crossing outside of proper channels just shoot the sons o bitches!"
 
Discouraging the rest would be the most humane thing we could do.  But, alas, we can't go around shooting people.
 
Ever see those crisscrossing laser systems to zap mosquitoes?  That's what we need.  We don't need to kill them, just give them a burning zap enough to discourage them.  Want $50,000, come and get it!
Dino Manalis Added Dec 13, 2018 - 9:26am
 We need better policies with Central American countries to boost economic development; respect for human rights; and crime control to stem mass emigration.
Bill Kamps Added Dec 13, 2018 - 10:46am
Sometimes tribute is a good bargain, but not in this case. 
Leroy Added Dec 13, 2018 - 11:05am
"Leroy, that would not be a bargain - ever!  Just ten people paid off to go home would amount to half a million dollars, and there are thousands of them in the caravan there, so the cost of the wall would be a LOT cheaper."
 
How much do you think it would cost to keep them on welfare for the rest of their lives?  Just one family would cost on the order of a half million by the time the kids graduated from high school.  It's a helluva deal.  But, it just encourages the rest.
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 11:22am
FP >> i just heard that Putin... China... NWO/OWG
 
That's the problem with shit hole countries run by the corrupt... they've got the world-wide numbers to work together and solidify their power.  Their only concern is not to seem too weak... there being no honor among thieves.
 
FP >> As to the ransom demands of the Hondurans, i think we can rest assured that there will not be any payments forthcoming;
 
With the current administration... no.  And with the last they would have just been green lighted through the gates.
 
But let's not pretend such as this would never happen in the U.S.  I seem to remember hundreds of millions in cash sitting on an airport tarmac in Iran.
 
FP >> as seen by the case of Stephanie Clifford(Stormy), extortion demands paid simply set the stage for further ones down the line, so that's not happening.
 
Well, it WAS paid once.  Stormy just decided she sold too cheap.  Honorable people would say, well that's on me and move on.  Less than honorable people renege on the deal.  A porn star prostitute lacking in the honor department... go figure. :)
 
Of course, you and several people make the point that when you start paying these guys, the price paid is never enough... AND you just invite all the other miscreants to demand theirs.
 
FP >> i believe... republican "retirees"... hammer to fall on the Klin-tons...
 
I think it's so cute that you still believe in truth and justice. :)  And in regard to the Clintons no less.  Hold on to that as long as you can. :)
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 11:22am
TBH >> Curious isn’t it? Everything wrong with where they come is our fault.... and yet they MUST come here.
 
I've seen signs that read "Welcome to the Texas.  Please leave the %$#@ that made your state crappy there."  The same goes on a national level.  The problem is... they don't.  That's what the Dems love about them and Republican establishment doesn't care.
 
TBH >> You could put an end to this real quick. If they are crossing outside of proper channels just shoot the sons o bitches!
 
I question if that would be cheaper than the wall (given our current court system).  Let's go with the wall first.
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 11:22am
Steel Breeze >> seems like the time for a well armed(regulated) militia......
 
Since we have one... yes; let’s use it.
 
It's sad that they don't.  There is nothing wrong with these countries a good armed insurrection couldn't fix.  Of course, that’s why tyrants always disarm the populace as the first order of business.  It's also why men on the left would like to disarm us.
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 11:22am
George >> The more they come the more they are open to abuse here. 
 
Abuse and scams are another aspect of human nature that has always been around.  These dirt bags will always seek out the easiest targets.  When you're ignorant and illegal; that fits the bill.
 
George >> BTW, the people carrying out this crime are themselves illegal immigrants.
 
Yes... and just imagine the abuse those who travel all that distance suffer.  The spokesman (Alfonso Guerreo Ulloa) has already proven the lack of character of a certain group... and they are not likely the worst of them.
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 11:23am
Leroy >> I'm sure our liberal friends see it as a bargain.
 
Probably not.  Now... let them in AND give them 50K ... that, many of them would support.  These people are owed both after all.  And remember the goal is not fairness, but rather fundamentally changing the makeup of the country through immigration (legal or illegal doesn’t matter).
 
Leroy >> Indeed, it would be if that were the end.  But, no, we would see neverending herds lined up for their payoff. 
 
Giving in to corruption, leads to more corruption.  If goes back to... if you want less of something, tax it (make it cost); if you want more of something, subsidize it.
 
Leroy >> Governments such as theirs give colonialism a good name.
 
It kind of reminds me of what's going on in South Africa right now.  All the farmers that produced and fed the nation are being run off (or killed) and their land confiscated.  The land is supposedly being given to poor blacks.  (Wanna bet?)  But the real question is... how much of that land do you think is still going to be productive?
 
The morons think they can pick up a hammer and that makes them a carpenter.  They think they can confiscate a tractor (and land) and it magically indues them with the knowledge of how to use it.
 
We'll be sending humanitarian aid to these starving dumb-asses real soon.  Meanwhile their new masters who 1) Stole everything (like the land) and 2) Disarmed the whole bunch will be living high on the hog.
 
Sound familiar?  Just pick a random Central American country...
 
Oh... but it's ALL our fault.  Central America, South Africa, the Middle East?  Yep… “we did that”.
 
Leroy >> Discouraging the rest would be the most humane thing we could do.
 
That is exactly right.  The best means (economical and humane) way to do that is for the thousands to show up back home empty handed.  A secure border would go a long way.  Processing and sending back refugees who do not qualify for asylum (which is the vast majority) immediately is another.
 
The problem is, since that is not the goal of the left.  They have thwarted both.  Thus, more come…
 
Leroy >> But, alas, we can't go around shooting people.
 
Yes... thank God.
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 11:23am
Dino M >> We need better policies with Central American countries to boost economic development; respect for human rights; and crime control to stem mass emigration.
 
Policies?  Money?  All of that is worthless so long as the corruption is there.  You want to help those people, then give them the means to help themselves.  Airdrop crates of guns and ammunition (enough to arm every man woman and child).  For good measure include copies of our Constitution.
 
Liberty and freedom cannot be foisted upon people who do not yet want it; nor will they value it (or keep it) if you just hand it to them.
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 11:23am
Sunshine K >> Leroy, that would not be a bargain - ever! 
 
I think Leroy was being a bit facetious.  Of course, giving in to criminals, will cost more in the long run because you encourage more criminals.
 
Our founding fathers learned that the hard way when dealing with the Islamic Barbary Pirates early in our nation’s history.
 
But... putting pencil to paper.  Assuming there are 7000 in the caravan, at $50,000 each; that comes to $350 million.  IF we could (even though we know we can't) assume that payment would solve the problem for good.  It would indeed be a "bargain" versus $5 billion... by a factor of about 14.
 
Both of your points are valid.  If would be nice if we could solve this that cheaply.  But, alas, we must deal with reality.
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 11:23am
Bill K >> Sometimes tribute is a good bargain, but not in this case.
 
Really?  You've peaked my interest!  And I mean that sincerely (not facetiously).  Can you give me an example or two?  What would you suspect the ratios is?
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 11:24am
Good comments... thanks all.
Leroy Added Dec 13, 2018 - 11:41am
A wall would keep out the ones with low motivation.  That's a plus.  The Great Wall of China never kept the invaders out.  Part of the problem was that at least one Chinese general let the invaders in.  If one party is determined to let our invaders in, there is really nothing we can do about it.  I'm all for a wall.  We don't have to keep out too many of the invading hordes to make it pay for itself.  It will never work without one party seeing it as in their best interest to keep the barbarians at bay.  The tide seems to be turning.  My hope is that the Democratic politicians see it as deleterious to their tenure in office.  Only then will we see change.
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 12:06pm
Leroy >> A wall would keep out the ones with low motivation.  That's a plus.
 
I really would be interested in the success rate of the Israeli wall.  Personally, I'm for border security.  One literal continuous wall from one end to the other doesn't make logistical or economic sense to me.  BUT a wall where it does make sense is the way to go and I suspect there are hundreds of miles (along the 2000-mile border) where it makes sense.
 
Leroy >> I'm all for a wall.  We don't have to keep out too many of the invading hordes to make it pay for itself.  It will never work without one party seeing it as in their best interest to keep the barbarians at bay.
 
Me to.  NOTHING will be 100%.  It doesn't have to be.  But what we have now is horrendous... and horrendous by intent and design.
 
Leroy >> If one party is determined to let our invaders in, there is really nothing we can do about it.
 
And THAT is the problem we have.  The goal and intent of many on the left (the Democrats) is simply to let the invaders in.  When the cost (to them) is more than the benefit (to them) we'll solve this problem.
 
Leroy >> The tide seems to be turning. 
 
We'll see.  Call me skeptical.
 
I did enjoy the melee between Trump, Shumer, and Pelosi the other day.  You could tell there was a bit of panic in Shumer and particularly Pelosi.  All they could say was let's get this discussion behind closed doors.  Meanwhile Pence (whom I generally like) looked like a deer in the headlights.
 
Leroy >> My hope is that the Democratic politicians see it as deleterious to their tenure in office.
 
Well, it didn't happen in 2018... we'll see in 2020.
 
The far-left base of the Democrats certainly does not believe that and they are driving the agenda right now.
 
Leroy >> Only then will we see change.
 
Yes... the question is will the cost benefit equation ever flip for the Dems; because for change to happen, they have to go against their base.
George N Romey Added Dec 13, 2018 - 12:22pm
The majority of Americans want immigration control.  Period. The open border types of course will never volunteer to take immigrant families into their own homes and ensure their financial and personal needs.  Any national politician talking open borders might able to take the NYC/San Fran crowd but that's it.  Here in Miami?  The biggest opposition to allowing open borders are the children and grandchildren of immigrants themselves.  Telemundo (owned by NBC) would have you believe otherwise.
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 12:38pm
A bit more information is coming out about Alfonso Guerrero Ulloa, the leader of the group that delivered the tribute demands to the U.S. consulate.
 
Ulloa was an admitted member of the "Popular Revolutionary Forces-Lorenzo Zelaya"... a "leftist guerrilla groups [in Honduras] that have resorted to terrorist tactics in the past." (source U.S. government report in 1990)
 
In 1982 this group "claimed responsibility for hijacking a plane and taking hostages, including eight Americans".
 
In 1987 a bomb went off at a Chinese Restaurant in Honduras that wounded six American soldiers.  The bomb was intended for them.  Who was the primary suspect?  Alfonso Guerrero Ulloa.
 
Alfonso Guerrero Ulloa fled and received asylum in Mexico.  The Mexican government (our ally) describes this dirt-bag as a "freedom fighter".
 
Now!  This piece of ^%$# wants to seek asylum here in the U.S. and bring a bunch of buddies with him.
 
I remind you that the "caravan" is made up of women and children... completely spontaneous... with no bad guys or terrorists to be found.
 
Border problem?  Immigration problem?  I remind you that if Obama were still President, if the left had its way, THIS guy would likely have waltzed right into the U.S.; been given a date at which to show up in court... and... allowed to disappear into the general populace.
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 12:51pm
George >> The majority of Americans want immigration control.  Period.
 
Yes.  Agreed.  But what they don't do is become informed or act upon that want.
 
George >> The open border types of course will never volunteer to take immigrant families into their own homes and ensure their financial and personal needs.
 
No... that's your job (in their minds).  It's the socialist mentality.  It's all well and good and something we need... for the stupid, deplorable, little people.
 
George >> Any national politician talking open borders might able to take the NYC/San Fran crowd but that's it. 
 
Which is why few if any "talk" about open borders.  They can get want they want without the talk.  So, they they support them behind the curtains and doors of power.  You don't have to scream "open borders", you can just scream about separating children from their parents.  You can just hamstring the system through the courts to ensure the invaders disappear into the country and are never held accountable.  They don't have to advocate... just subvert and THAT is what they are doing.
 
George >> Here in Miami?  The biggest opposition to allowing open borders are the children and grandchildren of immigrants themselves.
 
Yet how many Democrats easily won re-election in Miami?  Across the U.S.?  Forty seats at last count.  So exactly how much do they oppose this stuff?
 
It's great to believe something; it's even better to be on the right side of an issue.  But what good is belief without being informed or without taking action?
 
George >> Telemundo (owned by NBC) would have you believe otherwise.
 
As would the rest of the Main Stream Media.  They would have us believe a lot of things that aren’t true... AND... at least for their audience (the left) succeed.
Ken Added Dec 13, 2018 - 1:03pm
The US simply needs to pay tribute (some call it reparations) to every person in the caravan, THEN they, in return, will leave us in peace. 
 
Until the next time they approach - or the next wave that sees us giving free money to other comes up and demands their share.  It sets a never ending cash giveaway principle.
 
As far as Mu Ulloa lecturing us about "what we stole from them" - I would love to see him quantify and put a dollar value on that.
 
Then we should take his figures (if they can be validated) and subtract the anyway from 130-180 million in financial aid we give Honduras per year (although only 30 million so far this year, apparently Trump's threats to cut foreign aid are being acted upon).
 
And have Honduras pay us back the difference between "what we have stolen" and "what we have given freely to them".
 
Make it a net 0 relationship and send them on their way.
FacePalm Added Dec 13, 2018 - 1:16pm
Tex-
i watched a re-run of Carlson's 12-12 show last nite on youtube; he had a guest on there(Dave Rubin) who was raised in the US, but had spent the last 23 years in Israel.  Here's a link...and it's almost the first segment on the show, so you won't have to wait long.  If in a hurry to get to the good stuff, skip ahead to the 4:45 mark.
 
He said that before their wall was built, 55 thousand illegals had come in and settled around some city like Haifa(probably wrong on the name), and crime - especially assaults - went way up, just like it has in Germany, Italy, France, Sweden, and the UK.
 
When their wall was near completion, in 2016, they had reduced the numbers of illegals to 17.  In 2017, after they added "several feet" to the height of the wall, they had ZERO.
 
"Walls work!" was his conclusion, and Tucker expressed his thanks.
Ken Added Dec 13, 2018 - 1:25pm
Yet how many Democrats easily won re-election in Miami?  Across the U.S.? 
 
3rd generation cubans have become quite liberal through the indoctrination.  They hold very little resemblance to those who fled Cuba and Castro.  There are also a lot of elderly very rich New Englanders that live in Miami/Dade/Palm Beach counties
Ken Added Dec 13, 2018 - 1:26pm
Who paid for the caravan because it is clear that it was in the interest of some group or person to have them come.
 
Once they crossed into Mexico their expenses were primarily covered by (gonna shock you here!) George Soros and the Open Society foundation
Dave Volek Added Dec 13, 2018 - 1:37pm
Lynn
In Canada, we have laws that prosecute businesses that hire illegal immigrants.
 
I like your analysis. I was in Brno, Czech Republic in 1992. My girlfriend told me not to go outside at midnight on New Years.
 
At the stroke of midnight, all sorts of gunfire took place. People were firing their rifles and pistols for 5-10 minutes from their balconies or back yards, most of it straight up. In a city of 500,000, there were at least a thousand blasts in that short time.
 
This, I believe, was an anti-communist tradition. In a country where firearms were supposed to be tightly controlled, there sure were a lot of firearms on display for that short time. I think it was a sign from the people to its unelected government: don't push us around too much. And because there were so many people firing at once (and most shooters ducked back inside after a couple of shots), it was impossible for the police to arrest anyone.
 
And bullets do eventually come down. Best to stay inside!
 
I would hope that, in central America, implementation of the TDG would prevent the need for citizens to arm themselves to make their leaders more accountable. Civil wars are not fun for anyone. 
 
 
Ken Added Dec 13, 2018 - 4:02pm
FP - aside from immigration implications for Israel.  They were having almost daily terrorist bombings all over the country before the wall.  Now the terrorist attacks are few and far between, and they have had to go to extremes like building those tunnels to try and sneak in
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 5:13pm
Ken, giving money to any caravan of invaders would be a disaster... almost as big as giving money to a terrorist sponsoring nation... I say, almost.
 
Of course, if you step into the "reparations" debate, you’re just agreeing to play their game.  The victimhood and demands have no limits.  Best, to just tell them to shove it from the beginning.
 
I like the idea of getting a little something back for the financial aid we give any nation.  A little gratitude and cooperation are well within reasonable expectations.
 
Ken >> Once they crossed into Mexico their expenses were primarily covered by (gonna shock you here!) George Soros and the Open Society foundation
 
I've heard that... but I'm skeptical (though only slightly).  It's like when the left screams everything is coming from the Koch Brothers.
 
I don't think there is any doubt that the effort is very well organized and cost a pretty penny.  And I suspect whoever is doing it is covering their tracks as best they can.  Those doing this should be considered an enemy of the state and indictments and warrants should be issued for their arrest and extradition is necessary.
 
Why, aren't we seeing this (indictments)?  Why are these people/organizations not exposed by (if not the MSM) at least Fox or Newsmax or a bigger player in the news industry?
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 5:14pm
FP,
I normally catch Carlson's show... but missed it last night.  The segment referenced was very informative and gives me the information I stated would be nice to have.  It's amazing what you can learn from someone (like Carlson) who really wants to get the facts.  How many similar segments do you think they produce like this on CNN or MSNBC?
 
Your numbers quoted are exactly what was reported on the program.
 
Border Security isn't rocket science.  Walls will work for a large section of our border.  Other means and technology should be used to supplement that security where needed.
 
The key ingredient missing is... will and want.  One side of the political equation simply gives lip service to border security.  That's one reason they only want to discuss it behind closed doors.
TexasLynn Added Dec 13, 2018 - 5:14pm
Dave V >> In Canada, we have laws that prosecute businesses that hire illegal immigrants.
 
As there are in the U.S.; but they are only half-way enforced.  Neither the left nor right in power (that's the politicians) want it enforced.  The left needs the illegals to be prosperous enough to say (and not self deport) and the right likes the cheap labor.
 
Just like with border security, the interest of those who rule does not correspond with the interest of the people.  That dynamic needs to change.
 
Dave V >> I like your analysis.
 
Thank you, but I get the feeling we don't agree on the foundational philosophy.  We've run into this before with TDG.
 
Dave V >> I was in Brno, Czech Republic in 1992... gunfire in celebration...
 
That's a good story and one I think supports my premise.  An armed citizenry is a check and balance that helps ensure a limit on power.  Without it, tyrants have a lot more "freedom" to do whatever they want.
 
In the case of the U.S. we have that right to keep and bear arms as unalienable (given by God).  In the Czech Republic, it seems that right is one the people acquired for themselves.  The most important factor is that it's there, that the governed know it's there, and the rulers know it's there.  If it’s not, you may enjoy peace and freedom for a long, long time… but no for one minute beyond what those who do control the arms decide.
 
Dave V >> I would hope that, in central America, implementation of the TDG would prevent the need for citizens to arm themselves to make their leaders more accountable.
 
And here is where we would disagree.  The TDG seems to rely on the best nature and intentions of men.  That, IMO is something we should never do; and I think history bears that out.
 
There would be no circumstance or system that would relieve the need for an armed citizenry.
 
Dave V >> Civil wars are not fun for anyone.
 
No, they are not... but the alternative (Stalin and Mao and Castro yesterday... the Honduran people today) is worse.  So, just call it the lesser of two evils.
Ken Added Dec 13, 2018 - 6:03pm
Ken Added Dec 13, 2018 - 6:06pm
Walls will work for a large section of our border.  Other means and technology should be used to supplement that security where needed
 
Now we have gone form "the walls are immoral" to "walls are ineffective".
 
No wall is 100% effect.  A burglar alarm doesn't make your home burglar proof.  It does send a large message of "this isn't going to be easy to get stuff easily, try going next door or to another neighborhood", though.
 
The absolute inability of Republicans to communicate simple messages like this and let the democrats constantly drive the narrative is just sickening
Jeff Michka Added Dec 13, 2018 - 7:11pm
Ken and his rightist pard TraitorLynn want everyone to go on and on about migrants.  Kenny keeps perping the "comforting Lie" about how the caravan was all funded by George Soros, then gives two absolute crap cites to "prove" it.  That is just rightist propaganda, not "facts," Kenny.  What is really sickening is the constant stream of lies and half-truth you cryptofascists believe as "truth."  Yeah, "those people" are all just criminals, so maybe they'll get up Kenny's way and help solve some of the problem with crypotfascists.
Cullen Kehoe Added Dec 13, 2018 - 7:14pm
The CIA was active in Central and South America during the Cold War (ex: Guatemala, Columbia, Chile, Guyana) ensuring that governments were toppled, elections were fixed (or influenced), and the like so that friendly strong men were in office.
 
These strong men were often corrupt and greedy. But a corrupt, greedy ruler is the easiest kind to keep in your pocket...like a little dog, wave a treat (or money) in front of them and they'll do whatever you want. 
 
The U.S. appetite for illegal drugs also turns these countries into bleak, dangerous hell holes. But the War on Drugs clearly doesn't work. 

Maybe consider legalizing some of these illegal drugs. And perhaps the U.S. government could consider starting up one of these programs to help Central American countries root out corruption. Prepare some report (via the U.N.), etc... Tie aid to specific projects (aid for this bridge, for that power plant, for these roads, etc...). 
Cullen Kehoe Added Dec 13, 2018 - 7:17pm
The Philippines just (basically) declared martial law and start killing people (anyone) who was even rumored to be involved in with drugs. No trials. That's problematic for a host of reasons (and not to be recommended). 
Cullen Kehoe Added Dec 13, 2018 - 7:19pm
Once a country has a corrupt guy in power who just wants to loot the country for himself, it's hard to get back on track. The next guy wants to do the same thing. And the second in command. The third. The legislators want a piece of the action. The businesses have to get on board with the government, put some money under the table, it turns into a mess really quick. Everyone in power is getting paid and want that to continue. 
Leroy Added Dec 13, 2018 - 10:54pm
Sunshine, perhaps you misunderstood my comments.  I don't support paying teibutr or ransom.  You are right in that it would encourage more.  Many years ago, I drove my old military Jeep to a softball game and watched the game in my vehicle.  This street smart kid climbs in and we talk for a while.  He was quite entertaining.  He asked me to take him to the store to buy a drink.  He said he had money, but I doubted.  We get to the store and he places candy and a drink on the counter.  He had no money.  I got a good laugh out of it.  I paid.  We went back and he disappeared.  Shortly after, about a dozen kids climbed in the Jeep demanding treats.  I refused.  They refused to leave.  So, there we sat for a couple of hours.  My stubbornness prevailed.
Leroy Added Dec 13, 2018 - 11:00pm
Sunshine, as to the general, I am not a history buff and my memory may be distorted.  My recollection is that the Manchurians captured his father and threathened to kill him if he didn't allow their army to pass.  They returned his father and he let them pass.  I don't recall the general's fate, but since the Chinese dynasty was over thrown and he commanded a large army, it is doubtful that he paid with his life.  Maybe there is a history buff here who could correct any errors.
Ken Added Dec 14, 2018 - 1:49am
SK the problem with republicans is while many believe in constitutional principles and individual liberty, they actually pushed the progressive movement in America, starting with Teddy Roosevelt who was the first Progressive president, followed by Wilson, then LBJ, then Carter, then Obama.
 
There were only two constitutionalist presidents in the 20th century.  Coolidge and Reagan.  If the country had followed their lead, and continued their path, we would be in an amazingly different place, completely opposite of where we are now.
Adolf Dick McMenace Added Dec 14, 2018 - 5:02am
@ TexasLynn - This has to be among the best posts I've ever read here.
TexasLynn Added Dec 14, 2018 - 10:39am
Cullen K >> The CIA was active in Central and South America during the Cold War...
 
You make some very good points on American intervention.  I'm not saying we are pure as the wind driven snow; but neither are we solely guilty of creating the situations these people find themselves in.  We were trying to prevent another Cuba, and preventing socialist dictatorships is a good and legitimate goal.  Still, results matter over intentions and we could have done better.
 
In the world of public opinion, we seem to be dammed if we do and dammed if we don't.
 
I don't buy the "appetite for illegal drugs" argument as another reason this is our fault.  I haven't set up a meth lab in my barn yet.  I could really use the money... but I don't.  I'm responsible for my actions when I choose to act or not act on the weaknesses of others.  I'll hold everyone else to that same standard.
 
Cullen K >> Maybe consider legalizing some of these illegal drugs.
 
I'm not there; at least on the hard stuff and most that most of what we're talking about.  If kids were getting high on inhalants, I don't see the solution as unrestricted sale of inhalants.  IMO... that's just not logical and just swaps one terrible problem for another.
 
The libertarian side of me sees your point... but the libertarian side of me also demands we take a step further first.  Assure me that all who legally choose to partake don't get government assistance (of any kind) when they are so screwed up to work or function in society.  Because, we dam sure shouldn't be subsiding that crap.  So, I ask, are we ready for that?
 
And one final step... the affect is not limited to the adults.  Are we ready to see kids suffering (even more than now) because their parents are irresponsible?  Are we ready to expedite the removal of those Children from bad situations on a fairly large scale?
 
I think it's obvious... we're not.  But in the spirit of compromise, when we are ready to let those chips fall, then I'm ready to have the legalization discussion.
 
Cullen K >> And perhaps the U.S. government could consider starting up one of these programs to help Central American countries root out corruption.
 
Root it out?  How about just addressing the stuff in plain sight.  It's usually the guy(s) running the country.  It's the bureaucrats.  It's the parliament.  It's the military.  Forget programs and rooting until you deal with the corruption that right there on the surface.
 
Cullen K >> Prepare some report (via the U.N.), etc...
 
The U.N.?  As in the United Nations?  Now you're just being silly.  That organization isn't as corrupt as Central America, but it's getting there.  You tell me the U.N. is involved in any way... you've just told me nothing will be done.
 
Cullen K >> Tie aid to specific projects (aid for this bridge, for that power plant, for these roads, etc...).
 
That's a good idea.  But I ask, what do you do when you discover the bridge is shoddy and built for a crony of the corrupt bureaucrats who took a cut under the table?
 
I suspect with that approach we'll eventually be faced with the same realization.  NOTHING can be done for Central America until you remove the thieves that run it.  NOTHING can be done for Central America that the Central Americans won't do for themselves.
 
The only solution is watch for that spark of self-determination... then give it as much oxygen (and ammunition) as possible.
TexasLynn Added Dec 14, 2018 - 10:40am
Cullen K >> The Philippines just (basically) declared martial law and start killing people (anyone) who was even rumored to be involved in with drugs. No trials. That's problematic for a host of reasons (and not to be recommended).
 
Agreed.  We should not support such behavior AND should work to stop it.
 
Cullen K >> Once a country has a corrupt guy in power who just wants to loot the country for himself, it's hard to get back on track... Everyone in power is getting paid and want that to continue.
 
Yes!  Exactly my point.  BUT removing these dirt-bags is step one before anything else substantially can be done.  It's just logical.
 
So... until you have the want and the will to do that; don't bother doing anything else.
 
My other main point is that you shouldn't do that (replace the corrupt people); because it won't last.  The only thing that will last is the common people of the nation to want it and have the will to take it.  Watch for that, then help them.  That's it.
 
Really good points, Cullen.  You're thinking objectively about this.  You're looking for solutions.  I hope I didn't beat up on you too bad. 
 
We seem to see the same problems and want the same result/destination... we just disagree on the path forward.
TexasLynn Added Dec 14, 2018 - 10:40am
Leroy >> Sunshine, perhaps you misunderstood my comments.  I don't support paying teibutr or ransom.
 
Thank goodness Leroy is around to explain things I cannot.
 
Neither of us would ever condone the paying of the tribute; realizing up front the results (more hands out) presented by SK and Leroy.  The idea that it would be cheaper to pay off this caravan if it solved the problem is based on if we lived in a fairy-tale land that magically assured us there would be no more after this.  We don't. :)
TexasLynn Added Dec 14, 2018 - 10:40am
SK >> The problem with Republicans is they are not as stubborn; they give in almost always.
 
Or... as I like to say... "Los no tienen cojones" (Google it).
 
Conservatives need to understand this if we are ever going to fix this mess.  The Republican Party will NEVER be part of the solution.
TexasLynn Added Dec 14, 2018 - 10:40am
Mr. Congeniality >> This has to be among the best posts I've ever read here.
 
Wow... thank you very much.  Note how good the comments are on this thread.  We've got some sharp tacks in this box. :)
Steel Breeze Added Dec 14, 2018 - 10:49am
its a sad commentary on where we've come to when we even have a discussion about paying tribute to wannabe criminals......
Ward Tipton Added Dec 14, 2018 - 11:23am
""It may seem like a lot of money to you.  But it is a small sum compared to everything the United States has stolen from Honduras." -- Spokesman Alfonso Guerreo Ulloa"
 
Someone apparently needs to brush up on British history.
TexasLynn Added Dec 14, 2018 - 11:42am
SB >> its a sad commentary on where we've come to when we even have a discussion about paying tribute to wannabe criminals......
 
It's worse than that.  We've done it (paid tribute) ... and very recently.
 
We all know that given the current President (despite whatever flaws he may have); no such payments would ever be considered.  BUT just a few short years ago that wasn't the case.
 
♦ President Barack Obama DID pay such tribute to Iran in the form of pallets of cash.  He tried to do it secretly, but it was exposed (He then spun it as no big deal with the help of the media).
 
♦ There is a sizable percentage of the U.S. population (not a majority, but sizable) who would agree with Alfonso Guerreo Ulloa that he and others are owed something from the U.S. for our past sins.  This mentality is prevalent within a certain ideological faction in this country.
 
♦ There is a sizable percentage of the U.S. population (not a majority, but sizable) who would agree that every one of these migrants should be allowed into the U.S. with few questions asked and no accountability.  I do note that almost all are savvy enough to give lip service to the contrary.  One need only watch their actions and results to see what they really believe.
Jeff Michka Added Dec 14, 2018 - 5:21pm
Well, TraitorLynn is gushing over his little collection of the usual suspect rightists with their usual rightists hip pocket wisdom.  Still want that civil war, TraitorLynn? Better get busy handing out those bumperstickers to "recruit" more suckers.  Hey, looks like you landed Steel Wheeze. I'm sure he'll join you on the barricades and face down the US army and their tanks, TraitorLynn, ace hypocrite. 
Kristen Foley Added Dec 14, 2018 - 5:28pm
"The US has seen in recent times an invasion fueled by corrupt oligarchy, militarizes, and crime syndicates to the south and corrupt politicians (previously referred to as "subversives") within our own borders (Republicans want cheap labor and Democrats new voters)."
 
In addition to being a grammatical mess, that sentence is false in every respect.  Since it was learned our country was an economic dynamo and a bastion of freedom, people have wanted to immigrate here.  Full stop.
 
To the extent you could identify an oligarch looking to facilitate people's passage here, it hasn't move the needle one bit.  The same is true for whatever crime syndicate or military you think may also be behind the desire to come here.  With or without these unnamed people's assistance, it's warranted to risk life and limb to come to America.  
 
As for both Republicans and Democrats secretly facilitating safe passage here, that's quite a tale.  Just for giggles, if both parties were behind the immigration, has a politician you support ever won an election?
Dave Volek Added Dec 14, 2018 - 5:34pm
Lynn
 
The Brno/New Year's Eve/guns anecdote is a good insight into human nature. The communists provided all sorts of ways for the population to have a certain amount of pursuits of happiness. As long as a citizen played within the rules, life was not that bad. Certainly much better than an English commoner in the 1850s. Maybe the underground ownership of firearms in Czechoslovakia helped create those opportunities.
 
Maybe it is a social force in the USA. Maybe it is just in the imaginations of most ardent of 2nd amendment supporters.
 
I don't think the Canadian government thinks much about the Canadians who have guns somehow overthrowing the established order.  A civil society can be created in other ways than just fear.
 
 
TexasLynn Added Dec 14, 2018 - 9:50pm
Kristin,
You seem to have mistaken my word "fueled" with your word "facilitated".
 
By "fueled" I simply mean that their actions provide the incentive for the migration/invasion.
 
The corrupt elements (rulers, military, organized crime) in Central America fuel (as in incentivize) the invasion by making their home nations shit holes.
 
The corrupt politicians here fuel (as in incentivize) the invasion by not securing our border and not enforcing our laws.
 
The invasion could be fixed on either end by curbing the corruption.
 
As for facilitation (not the same as fueled)?  Who knows who is doing it.  There have been theories presented in this thread that are definitely within the realm of possibilities.  (see Soros funded organizations)
 
Personally, I did not address “facilitation” in this post.
 
Maybe my atrocious grammar facilitated your missing the point.  My apologies.
 
Thanks for the comment.
Leroy Added Dec 15, 2018 - 9:14am
"In addition to being a grammatical mess..."
 
I must be dumb as a brick.  I don't see any grammatical issues with the sentence.
TexasLynn Added Dec 15, 2018 - 9:57am
Leroy >> I must be dumb as a brick.  I don't see any grammatical issues with the sentence.
 
I know, right?  But I was afraid to say anything lest I expose even more ignorance.  In hindsight, I suppose a few commas here and there could have cleaned it up; but to reach the level of “mess”?  That’s cold. :)
 
I also recognize that I use a few unorthodox forms (like parentheses and … ) that might throw a few people off.
 
Now, spelling?  THAT is a TexasLynn failing if ever there was one.  I try to run most of my stuff though MS Word to check spelling (and a bit of grammar) before I post.
 
Again, I apologize for not attaining the summit of perfection some prefer.
 
Maybe Kristen will do us the courtesy of critiquing a “paragraph” by my arch-nemesis (Michka). :P
Ward Tipton Added Dec 16, 2018 - 11:22pm
Mint is the very antithesis of everything Linux since about version 10 ... they pack it with so much crap that you need a super computer to run it. 
 
I prefer SuSe but I still prefer the KDE desktop to the Debian ... been using desktops since long before there were anything resembling functional cell phones. 
 
Yes, both parties facilitate this because whatever "ideological differences" there may be, are largely superfluous in nature and meaningless in their pursuit of power and control. 
 
The Caribbean (from the Carib or Carob people) and Central America is largely a product of British history, not American ... and had a substantially worse record of slavery and abuses than did the US of A. 
 
Diplomacy is the art of being able to say "Nice doggy" in a convincing manner until you can find a rock big enough to kill it with. I am a rock. Or so said my drill sergeant many decades ago. 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 17, 2018 - 1:59am
The cassete drives were bad ass ... that was top of the line. Had a friend that had one. 1600 lines of Basic for the first bar of Beethoven's fifth. TRaSh80, WANG, Commodore (VIC)
 
My first system with a hard drive was a twenty meg drive ... then I got an eighty meg drive ... and then boosted up to four megabytes of RAM ... turn the turbo button off and watch the cards fly from the solitaire in win3.1 and even 95. Rewriting batch files to get the two gig hd to work. I always had the orange monochrome monitors though, never had one of the green ones. 
 
Hooked the stereo up to my sound card ... amazing back in the day.
Ward Tipton Added Dec 17, 2018 - 3:44am
Smokin' that 3300 baud modem on the MUDS mostly LOL
Ward Tipton Added Dec 17, 2018 - 3:48am
First time I ever got online, the modems were at 3300 bauds. Most of my early work was as a tech or working ... primarily using old Word Processors. You remember the old FoxPlusPro word processor for DOS? 
 
One of the biggest issues I have with Linux is slipping back into my old DOS commands ... much prefer the GUI. 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 17, 2018 - 4:49am
When you can find anyone from IBM who does not think about immigration when you mention green cards ... you are getting into my area ... binary data dumps ... the IBM Greencard was a means to translate the binary to hexadecimal. 
 
We had somewhat different terms, but generally just big blue ... 
TexasLynn Added Dec 17, 2018 - 10:02am
Sunshine and Ward,
Trash80s... tape drives... modems?  Dam you guys are old.  :)
 
My first computer was an Apple IIe which I used throughout high school and college.  I was a COBOL programmer the first couple of years out of college... then moved on to MSDOS in the corporate world.  I was an MSDOS command line god in my day.  It's probably why I like PowerShell so much today.  I never worked that extensively with Linux and other OSs.  I have a few NAS servers that are Linux... but that's just in the background.
 
Good to get the geek on every now and then. :)
Ken Added Dec 17, 2018 - 3:56pm
I refused to learn Cobol once I saw that it took 100+ lines to calculate 1+1 and print out an answer.  I started with Pascal and moved straight to C and assembly (since all debuggers required knowledge of assembly to understand what they were saying).  From there to Unix and many other languages.
 
My first year, many students were still using punch cards for Fortran and kept crying when a card reader ate one of their deck or cards got out of order
Johnny Fever Added Dec 17, 2018 - 4:24pm
Kristen is right.  Below is your sentence and below that is the red ink, sans red ink, version:
 
The US has seen in recent times an invasion fueled by corrupt oligarchy, militarizes, and crime syndicates to the south and corrupt politicians (previously referred to as "subversives") within our own borders (Republicans want cheap labor and Democrats new voters).
 
The US has seen in recent times an invasion fueled by a corrupt oligarchy (is this oligarchy to our south? If yes, the edit required is even more major than I thought), militarizes (huh?), crime syndicates to the south and corrupt politicians (previously referred to as "subversives" if previously referred to as subversives there is no need for this parenthesis) within our borders (Republicans want cheap labor and Democrats new voters if adequately explained there is no need for this parenthesis).
TexasLynn Added Dec 17, 2018 - 4:28pm
Ken >> I refused to learn Cobol once I saw that it took 100+ lines to calculate 1+1 and print out an answer.
 
I'm not saying I loved Cobol... that's just where the jobs were.  A man's gotta eat. :)
 
Ken >> I started with Pascal and moved straight to C and assembly.
 
Most of my programming experience (over 20 years) was in C++.  Eventually I went the relational database route with SQL Server.  Never made it to the Oracle side of things.
 
I was always considered more of a jack of all trades (master of none).  Today, that diversity serves me well more than anything else.
 
Ken >> My first year, many students were still using punch cards for Fortran...
 
I missed punch cards by one semester.  I can't say that I'm sad about that fact.
 
I loved Fortran in college, but never programmed it in the real world, nor Pascal for that matter.
 
I splurged when I went to college and bought a 2400 baud modem and the college had a couple of telephone lines that could handle that rate (most were 300/1200).  Instead of typing my programs in at the dumb terminals, I would code them in a text editor on my PC and upload them.  I remember a clique of IT guys/gals who loved access to that cutting-edge technology.
 
(Nice and interesting tangent...) :)
TexasLynn Added Dec 17, 2018 - 4:52pm
JF >> Kristen is right.
 
Then I bow to your (and her) superior grammar skills. 
 
As for the parenthesis, please chalk that... and my excessive use of "..." to style. :)
 
Content wise, if you can get past the grammar, I think I'm good.  If grammar (and spelling) is your thing; best to skip my stuff altogether.  I'll never live up to any kind of standards.
Johnny Fever Added Dec 17, 2018 - 4:57pm
How can a opine on your content when I don't know what a "militarizes" is?  At least give me a clue, is it a person, place or thing?  
 
Interesting how before I commented you and Leroy were of the opinion that particular sentence was error free and now I'm supposed to skip all those mistakes.
TexasLynn Added Dec 17, 2018 - 5:34pm
JF >> Interesting how before I commented you and Leroy were of the opinion that particular sentence was error free and now I'm supposed to skip all those mistakes.
 
The article was slightly more than one or two sentences, JF… the rest of the post didn’t give you enough to form an opinion and opine? 
 
I look forward to such grammatical critiques, on the posts of others, soon.  Or is this service reserved just for me?
 
I do see, in my haste, I had two issues with the plural forms of “oligarchy” and “military”.  So, giving you the benefit of the doubt… try this…
 
The US has seen, in recent times, an invasion fueled by corrupt oligarchies, militaries, and crime syndicates.  Those three groups are found to the south of the United States, specifically in Central and South America. 
 
Also fueling this invasion are corrupt politicians, previously referred to as “subversives” in this article.  This correlation is meant to further clarify who the subversives are.  These corrupt politicians reside within our borders.  They are citizens of the United States.  Republicans belong to this group because they want cheap labor.  Democrats belong to this group because they want new voters.
 
By fueled, I do not mean that any of the groups mentioned physically facilitate the transportation of the invaders, but rather that they create the environments that cause the migration and invasion.  In Central and South America, the oligarchies and the militaries, and the crime syndicates create violent and economically impoverished nations.  Here, in the US, the subversives create an environment in which there are few consequences for entering illegally and plenty of rewards.
Johnny Fever Added Dec 18, 2018 - 6:17am
I was just coming to Kristen’s defense.  She highlighted one sentence and I agreed with her criticism of it.  You started off by saying she was wrong and in re-writing the passage, it appears you agree with me that she was right. For whatever it’s worth, the grammatical mistake I found the most entertaining, was when you wrote “within our own borders,” as there is no need for the word “own.” 
 
As for content of your revised passage, while I get the fact an “invasion” has a relatively loose definition, the non-Right-wingers of the world think of an invasion as something orchestrated by a military.  People fleeing turmoil (it doesn’t matter if this turmoil is the product of crime syndicates or oligarchs) in search of a better life in America should not be called invaders.  I have a similar critique of your use of the word “subversives.” 
 
Oh by the way, I fully support our government installing walls at high traffic border crossings.  The same is true for our political class, that’s why there are walls at high traffic border crossings. 
Leroy Added Dec 18, 2018 - 6:29am
"First time I ever got online, the modems were at 3300 bauds. "
 
Could you perhaps mean 300 Baud?  3300 Baud is oddball.  I don't remember anything before 300 Baud.  The first modem that I personally owned was 14,400 Baud, although I worked with 300, 1200, 2400, and 9600 Baud at work.
Koshersalaami Added Dec 18, 2018 - 1:02pm
Is there anyone on the site who has advocated paying $50k/person to a population trying to get into the United States? I’m not sure I know of any major politicians who are that stupid. I hope not to be proven wrong. 
 
Sure walls can work, but it depends on what is causing the desire to cross the border. In Israel it’s targets. On the Mexican border it’s mostly jobs. Is building a wall cheaper than prosecuting Americans who hire illegals? 
Jim Stoner Added Dec 18, 2018 - 1:13pm
I agree with Dino....doing it right is cheaper. 
TexasLynn Added Dec 18, 2018 - 3:29pm
KS >> Is there anyone on the site who has advocated paying $50k/person to a population trying to get into the United States?
 
I don't think that accusation has been made.  I hope not to be proven wrong.
 
The main gist of post is to point out the balls and lack of character of a faction within the "caravan".
 
KS >> I’m not sure I know of any major politicians who are that stupid.
 
THAT Stupid?  Maybe not.  But a recent American politician did pay a form of protection money to some very evil and dangerous men in the form of $400 million dollars in cash.  So, stupidity on this issue was (and likely still is) present in our political environment.
 
Again, my accusation isn't that the politicians are "stupid" in this regard... just "subversive".  They give lip service to "border security" while undermining it in different ways.  (And note I lay this on the GOP and Dems).
 
KS >> Sure walls can work, but it depends on what is causing the desire to cross the border.
 
Why is a walls success dependent on the type of desire?  I don't see the logic.  Level of desire (not matter the source), I might concede is a factor.  But, as you alluded too, a wall can work as Israel has shown us.
 
KS >> On the Mexican border it’s mostly jobs. Is building a wall cheaper than prosecuting Americans who hire illegals?
 
Well, the post does point out that one side of the "subversives" doesn't want to prosecute employers (it's probably both, actually).
 
Personally, I'm in favor of both, or more accurately, many solutions.  We should have border security in the form of walls, fences, drones, border patrol, and the military if/when necessary.  Given the times we live in... our borders need to be secure for many reasons.
 
AND, I'm in favor of crippling fines for employers who hire illegal aliens... with one very important prerequisite.  It is the responsibility of the Federal Government to verify an individual’s legal status (not the business/employer).  As long as the employers uses the system set up by the Feds to check and get the go-ahead... they are legally protected.  Reasonable?
 
Now... I would request one other "compromise" on this issue.  I know it's not a problem and practically never happens... BUT; if/when a non-citizens votes (not having that right) or commits a certain level of crime (say a felony); they are immediately deported and lose all claims to asylum, legal status, etc... Reasonable?
Leroy Added Dec 18, 2018 - 10:47pm
"I’m not sure I know of any major politicians who are that stupid."
 
There are plenty that are that stupid and more.  Don't worry about that.  However, I don't know of anyone suggesting it.  If Trump came out against it, many would be for it.
The Burghal Hidage Added Dec 19, 2018 - 8:32pm
If walls didnt achieve the desired effect of keeping undesirables out then Senators and movie stars and others of the elites in this country wouldn't live in gated communities.  Kosher Bologna speaks smoothly but he is just one more example of those who are apologists for the status quo. Any who feel that it is a moral imperative to open up the doors for any who are seeking better lives then by all means: please take them at your house. Let them set up a tent in your back yard, or if you live in a high rise maybe you can let them crash in your basement storage space. You lousy hypocrites high on your own farts, snarky, looking down your nose at anyone from outside of your bubble. It's you! You are the problem! You put on this insufferable attitude that any of us who speak in favor of the wall, in favor of enforcing the laws already on the books, in favor of actually performing one- just one - of those duties SPECIFICALLY enumerated for the federal government, that we are rubes, dullards, unenlightened hinterlanders who don't appreciate the "nuances" of these matters. That we are racist, we just dont want all those brown people. FUCK YOU....all of you with a rusty chain saw blade. I'm not a racist. I am a citizen of this country. I was born here. As long as we are still PRETENDING to live by the rule of law I actually get a say in this. So do you. The people voted, they supported the idea. Plenty of people who did not vote support this idea. We just want the government to do the job they are supposed to do and stop doing all of the things they are not supposed to be doing. And if you make all these rules here is a stellar idea: don't pass laws if you think that you are too good for them to apply to you. Either that or start getting rid of the laws. We are suffocated by law and lawyers and wannabe lawyers. I am sick and tired of anyone who can rationalize this madness and still, if not actively support it, at least make excuses for it. You're like the guards at Treblinka or Birkenau or Dachau, hell pick any one of them. You are just like them because you're just following orders. Marching orders from your party
FacePalm Added Dec 19, 2018 - 9:09pm
TBH-
Alright, i've had it with your holding back and pussyfooting around; tell us what you REALLY think!
 
Leroy-
"I’m not sure I know of any major politicians who are that stupid."
 
There are plenty that are that stupid and more.

 
Oh, yeah.  Mad Maxine comes to mind immediately(though she's figured out a nice scam to fund her campaigns which channels hundreds of thousands to her family members); another one is that guy who was afraid that Guam would capsize if too many people rushed to one side of it - Hank Johnson, D representative from Georgia, b'leeve 'twas.
 
He later explained he was "joking," but it doesn't appear that way on the videotape...
Koshersalaami Added Dec 20, 2018 - 12:17am
TBH,
Exactly how does advocating that employers who hire illegals get prosecuted constitute support for the status quo? Just because I don’t favor your solution doesn’t mean I don’t favor addressing the problem. 
 
Though this is a tangent, we’d all be better off if you stopped projecting. Liberals are terrible about following marching orders; you guys are way better at that and way more apt to do it. Not that you’ve figured that out; you’re not paying close enough attention. I wouldn’t mind your hatred if it weren’t based on such shitty analysis. 
 
Try to follow this. I’ll start with an analogy from physics. Do you know how to fix a leaky basement? You might think the best way is to seal your walls. It isn’t, it’s to grade your yard. Water is higher pressure than the air in your basement, meaning that if there’s a leak your basement is in essence sucking in water. Sealing might hold the pressure for a while, but the best bet is to eliminate the pressure altogether. 
 
Employers in the United States create jobs that aren’t filled by Americans and they’re willing to hire illegal immigrants, meaning they’re creating a job vacuum. What do vacuums do? They suck. And we’ve got loads of illegal immigrants rushing across the border to fill the vacuum. The most sensible course of action is to eliminate the vacuum. No jobs, no people coming illegally to the US in search of jobs. Aside from political refugees, which is a way smaller population, the pressure on the border reduces drastically. 
 
Why don’t we do that? Because the people complaining about illegal immigration want to have their cake and eat it. They want to bitch to the heavens about illegal immigrants while not alienating wealthy voters who hire  them and create the problem in the first place. They want to do what Republicans always do: Look tough while putting the wealthy above the law. 
 
Try this on for size: As a liberal, your disregard for law and order makes me sick. 
The Burghal Hidage Added Dec 20, 2018 - 3:47am
Good! I hope you choke on your own vomit! You are not a liberal, you are a STATIST
The Burghal Hidage Added Dec 20, 2018 - 3:47am
For the record asshole I am not a republican
Ward Tipton Added Dec 20, 2018 - 7:07am
As a Systems Administrator for a company with access to aircraft and effectively bypassing security, I installed E-Verify ... per the government instructions ... only to be told that the company was not allowed to use it as it was a violation of the privacy of the employees. 
 
The IRS continues to refuse to tell me that I am working in Florida as it is a violation of my privacy ... despite the fact that we have the same conversation year after year ... but each and every year when they want to collect the monies that someone using my SSN has claimed from me, all of a sudden, privacy is apparently not any issue. 
 
It is not racist to protect the borders ... it is however, sheer stupidity and blatant support of if not complicity in the continued abuse of both the people seeking to cross the border illegally and the citizens of this nation. 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 20, 2018 - 7:14am
It is sheer stupidity NOT to protect the borders ... doh! 
Koshersalaami Added Dec 20, 2018 - 8:50am
Of course it’s stupidity not to protect the borders. I’m tired of the canard that liberals in general think we should open the border. There are now liberals stupid enough to attack the department that protects them, but every political entity has its fringes, including us. 
 
As to my being a statist, that is also a canard. Government is a means, not an end. There are things government does well and there are things the private sector does well. What I notice here is that a lot of people hate government and hate government intrusion until we hit an area they care about, then suddenly they’re all for it. That’s how gay marriage worked. It’s certainly how the abortion issue works. In fact, it’s how anything punitive works. It’s why we incarcerate so heavily. 
 
Liberals are accused of emotionalism - bleeding heart, protect immigrant kids, whatever. Conservatives are every bit as emotional, just in a different direction. What I have found drives Republicans the most nuts is the idea that people who deserve punishment aren’t getting it or enough of it and people who don’t deserve rewards are getting too much of it, though in the latter area “deserve” seems to be correlated with wealth. On this site I hear from a lot of people who claim they don’t like how the rich are being coddled but I don’t hear the same people calling Trump on that. Why not? I certainly preferred Obama to Trump, but I have no trouble at all saying that Obama blew some things. 
Koshersalaami Added Dec 20, 2018 - 10:35am
Even Roe v. Wade differentiated between trimesters, discouraging third trimester abortions. At what stage you define a fetus as a baby depends on what criteria you use for the definition. Clearly conception isn’t a sensible standard from a biological standpoint. If we’re going to define human life by potential human life, we could get into egg cells and sperm cells, being as they don’t apparently exist for any other purpose. If we view them as potential lives, then we are designed by our Creator in such a way that the vast, vast majority of potential lives cannot be realized even in successful cases of conception. 
 
There are stages of fetal development where the fetus does not have a four-chambered heart, where the fetus has a tail, and even where the fetus has gills. Again, are we biologically defining this as a human being? What standard are we using? Appearance? 
 
One standard that’s been used is viability - the fetus is defined as human when it can survive outside the womb. However, with improving technology, that stage has been pushed earlier. 
 
I don’t know what the answer is. I realize that some people view the answer as conception for religious reasons, though I don’t know the scriptural rationale for this. 
 
I do know that in other ways most of us do not treat fetuses as people. The question I’m about to ask is not remotely flippant and should not be taken as such: How many of you have ever attended a funeral service for a miscarriage? The grief of the expectant mother is quite real. If your church believes that human life begins at conception but does not treat miscarriages as human deaths, why not? 
 
And here’s where we get to the liberal view. The answer to my question is that the real issue isn’t the fetus at all, it’s who gets to decide whether the fetus is carried to term. Men don’t have a physical hand in that because carrying the fetus is a female function, and that lack of control drives some men nuts. Miscarriages do not involve a limiting of male control but abortions do. The problem is that if men do exercise control, that effectively means that a woman can be forced to function as a brood mare whether she wants to or not. 
 
Presumably the decision to have a baby is usually a joint one made by couples, and in such cases the point is moot. But what is the case in more casual pregnancies and especially what happens in the event of rape? That the existence of a fetus that is not yet biologically recognizeable as a human being should force a woman to carry her rapist’s baby to term is nothing short of criminal. 
 
We then get to some ideologically contradictory stances that are often held. Many here will talk about how women on welfare have lots of children, each of whom is a drain on taxpayers. Are we to structure our laws such that they have even more children? We are not going to be able to limit how much sex they have because that would be government intrusion on a scale most of us would presumably find repugnant. So how do we limit the number of welfare babies? There are two obvious ways, and unfortunately those who oppose abortion tend to oppose both of these ways. (Actually, there are three, but again, abortion opponents tend to oppose the third one too.) The first is the aforementioned abortion. The second is widely available contraception and instruction in how to use it properly. Who provides contraception and instruction to poor people? The ever-popular Planned Parenthood - this is their primary function. The third is sex education in the schools, because even poor mothers presumably go to school at some stage. Why anyone opposes sex education I can’t tell you. The rationale is that it appears to be a government condoning of premarital sex, though the figures on sex education indicate that it reduces promiscuity/sexual activity rather than increasing it because it makes kids far more aware of the consequences of sex. 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 20, 2018 - 10:36am
"That’s how gay marriage worked. It’s certainly how the abortion issue works. In fact, it’s how anything punitive works. It’s why we incarcerate so heavily."
 
We incarcerate so heavily because it is a private industry that has bought and paid for many different politicians through campaign donations, and have statutory laws that can be arbitrarily enforced. 
 
Abortion ... I do not agree with it, but it has to my knowledge, always been made available when it was an actual medical concern for the mother, though last time I saw any statistics, less than one percent of all abortions today are health related. Most are merely a matter of convenience ... a form of birth control. 
 
Gay Marriage? Where in the Constitution does it give government the right to impose itself into private contractual agreements between two private people? Where does it get the right to impose itself in religious affairs? Government should never have gotten into marriage to begin with. 
The Burghal Hidage Added Dec 20, 2018 - 10:58am
Youre talking a lot, but youre not saying anything Baloney boy. This is a debate? Im not debating, just stating my opinion. I dont waste my time attempting to debate anything with Statists
Koshersalaami Added Dec 20, 2018 - 11:16am
I don’t waste my time talking to people whose idea of a case is to call me Baloney boy. 
Koshersalaami Added Dec 20, 2018 - 11:24am
Ward,
I agree wholeheartedly about gay marriage. This is where I respect the libertarians, at least they try to be consistent. This case is a classic example of Keep government off our backs unless something offends me, in which case insert government here. 
 
I didn’t mention health of the mother in discussing abortions. If that doesn’t constitute obvious grounds for abortion, I can’t have any respect for the person holding that opinion. 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 20, 2018 - 11:40am
Yes, but again, that ... inclusive of rape, constitutes less than one percent of all abortions last time I checked any statistics. I would say that indicates that there are more than just a few which are little more than a matter of convenience. However, even the Catholic Diocese (not something I am a fan of) provides for such measures. Nobody was ever seeking to make it unlawful in such cases, though that was certainly a battle cry from many ... and there are some radicals on the right that would like for it to be altogether illegal, but would you not agree that there are certainly better options? Why are the numbers so consistently high for abortions but so consistently low in regards to actual matters of health? There seems to be a problem there. 
Koshersalaami Added Dec 20, 2018 - 12:35pm
I don’t think there’s a significant constituency for incest marriages, particularly given the health risks to children. 
 
Ward,
Yes, there’s a problem. We aren’t doing enough to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place. If we get unwanted pregnancies, we’re going to get abortions, legal or not. The poor will do what used to be called back-alley abortions, the wealthy will fly somewhere to have it done legally. More widespread sex education - which, as I said above, actually reduces promiscuity rather than increasing it, more widely available contraception and more widely disseminated instruction on how to use it. Without contraception, we’ll get unwanted pregnancies because we will not be capable of successfully regulating sex. 
Steel Breeze Added Dec 20, 2018 - 1:05pm
Kosh,there's the red flag,right there...."sucessfully regulating sex"..........
Koshersalaami Added Dec 20, 2018 - 4:38pm
SB,
Exactly my point. I am not in favor of such regulation - liberals are generally less in favor of this sort of regulation than conservatives are. I bring it up because I’ve noticed a propensity among conservatives to want to increase regulations on poor people getting assistance; also because conservatives tend in this case to want two things that pull in opposite directions: fewer poor babies and fewer abortions. There are solutions that accomplish both but conservatives tend not to like those solutions, even though they work. The answer they like is abstinence, but how are they going to get another population to practice it? My fear is that they’d attempt to regulate it. That would not work. 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 20, 2018 - 11:45pm
Not objectionable to poor people receiving assistance at all. What I am personally objectionable to is government using taxpayer dollars to implement programs that are known and historically shown to create multiple generations of a dependency class, or entitlement class, destroying the nuclear family units through financial incentives and punishments and financially punishing those on assistance for trying to improve their lives. 
Koshersalaami Added Dec 21, 2018 - 12:42am
There's a big difference between objecting to programs and objecting to klutzy programs. Sometimes government forgets that you get what you incentivize. When government cuts off assistance to someone making a little money in a minimum wage job such that people can't afford to take those jobs because they'd lose as much as they'd make, that constitutes discouraging work. If I were to subsidize anything, I'd concentrate on day care because if day care costs as much as mothers of young children make, they might as well stay home with their kids and take care of them themselves. If you want people to work, look carefully at the obstacles to work. 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 21, 2018 - 2:42am
"If I were to subsidize anything, I'd concentrate on day care because if day care costs as much as mothers of young children make, they might as well stay home with their kids and take care of them themselves. If you want people to work, look carefully at the obstacles to work. "
 
Bingo. There is a start ... and I can hear the cries of socialism fomenting in the brains of others here, but it works. Maybe some of the other readers here know if it is still in the works or not, but when I was a kid in West Virginia ... a young man? ... a not so young man? When I was younger and still living in West Virginia, if you were able bodied and wanted welfare, you would have to work for state road. We made jokes about the five handled shovels on the salamanders so the entire crew could rest on a single shovel while they stayed warm, but if you wanted welfare you had to work for it. 
 
Now extend that to ... you must attend school, vocational, scholastic or technical ... with a viable end game developed in cooperation with someone who will help you plan in an area where you have the opportunity to get your defecation to coagulate. Put people to work building schools, libraries, in binderies putting together books, in daycare providing subsidized childcare for other parents who want to improve themselves. 
 
The question is ... are the best minds that government has to offer totally incompetent and incapable of seeing this, or are they creating a dependency class by design? Those who are wholly dependent on government crumbs are easily controlled. 
 
My belief is that it was very much intentional ... and I remember these conversations from the late sixties with a black family that was a frequent guest in our home ... and while I never understood the jokes about them being able to use the front door, I do remember their cries of outrage over LBJ and his "war on poverty" and the subject destruction of the nuclear family unit. 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 21, 2018 - 4:00am
I realize that now, but back in the late sixties, I had no such ideas. I played with all the neighborhood kids ... hung out with the kids at school, but don't recollect any issues about who looked like what ... though then again, I was strikingly cute ... at least until puberty came along and left me resolved to being pretty ... and I know I was pretty cuz my brother said so ... he said I was pretty ugly, pretty mean, pretty useless ... and pretty apt to stay that way ... awful pretty he said. Never much cared what color skin someone had though, did not define them any more than their sexuality. 
Koshersalaami Added Dec 21, 2018 - 7:48am
We would solve an awful lot of inequality if we funded schools by state instead of by neighborhood. One of the reasons bussing was necessary was not integration but a shot at going to quality schools. Separate But Equal was never remotely equal, just separate. Bussing happened because government figured - rightly in this case, I think - that parents would advocate for their kids’ schools no matter where their kids went to school, parents with more wealth would make more powerful advocates, and we needed more schools with successful parent advocates. What government didn’t count on was White Flight and private “academies.” Where I lived in North Carolina for ten yeas, there were private schools all over the place. 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 21, 2018 - 8:33am
"Bussing happened because government figured - rightly in this case, I think - that parents would advocate for their kids’ schools no matter where their kids went to school, parents with more wealth would make more powerful advocates, and we needed more schools with successful parent advocates."
 
Then explain if you would not mind, why so many proponents of school vouchers are so vehemently opposed despite their record of success? Just askin' ... While it is not a solution in and of itself, it certainly gives voice to the parents ... and allows people to vote with their feet, and to a lesser degree, their wallets ... in a sense anyhow. 
Koshersalaami Added Dec 21, 2018 - 8:48am
I would not mind at all. The voucher system entails public funding for private schools, so the first issue is that this means the government is now paying for more schools. There’s one enormous difference between public and private schools that people tend not to take into account and also accounts for what is often viewed as superior private school performance (which is actually mainly illusory): Public schools have to take all students, private schools do not. To adapt a slogan coming from President Bush 43: private schools leave children behind. It’s very easy to get your averages up if you have the ability to eject your poorest performing students. 
 
What determines the performance of students? The wealth of their parents. Whether they go to public or private schools is not a significant variable, it’s just assumed to be because of the aggregate weighted by the private ability to reject students. 
 
The result of vouchers would just be to destroy whatever quality there is in poorer public schools by skimming their good students. Where would that leave poor neighborhoods? To begin with, I don’t believe voucher programs include transportation. So what’s the result for the poorest students? That their schools have now had their best students and their most active parents pulled out, courtesy of government funding. It’s the ultimate way of leaving children behind. 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 21, 2018 - 9:02am
"I would not mind at all. The voucher system entails public funding for private schools, so the first issue is that this means the government is now paying for more schools."
 
Not paying for more students however. Public Schools fail to receive those funds when the students do not show up ... ostensibly to give the schools financial incentive to prevent absences though ... the entire system is messed up in reality. 
 
What is wrong with giving better students better opportunities? Is it somehow more "fair" to keep them in failing schools? If someone excels in scholastic studies, should they not have more scholastic options? Likewise ... and along those same lines, our schools had technical classes as well. There was a machine shop, an auto shop and other functioning work areas where local people could come to get work done at discounted rates, and students could get experience working in real world environments. Most of that was done away with back in the seventies and eighties if I am not mistaken ... though I was not in school when it began happening so I am not acutely aware of what year it may have been. 
 
I agree the system is broken, but I do not agree that better students should be prevented better opportunities ... especially when it will not cost the tax payer any more than it is costing us now. How is it that the schools in DC are so under-funded anyhow? Especially when they are among the top spenders per student in the world? 
 
There is definitely something wrong in hooterville. 
TexasLynn Added Dec 21, 2018 - 10:16am
I apologize for being away from this thread yesterday.
 
I'll have to be brief today...
 
On Borders:
TBH is right that there is a movement on the left that believes in open borders.  Their last candidate for the President expressed such a desire (to a Brazilian bankers in a closed meeting).  When the comments were leaked... she, of course, hemmed and hawed and spun...  Then there are many others on the far espouse such idiotic ideas.  It's part of the hate America first mentality.
 
The question might arise if a majority of the left support such a measure (and I doubt it), but enough support it to stifle serious efforts at border security.
 
I haven't seen KosherS himself advocate such a thing.
 
Kosher S is right that part of the problem is the GOP protecting businesses that hire illegal aliens.  I think I mention that in the post itself.  This should not be. 
 
I'll reiterate my compromise on that issue.
 
I'm in favor of crippling fines for employers who hire illegal aliens... with one very important prerequisite.  It is the responsibility of the Federal Government to verify an individual’s legal status (not the business/employer).  As long as the employers uses the system set up by the Feds to check and get the go-ahead... they are legally protected.  Reasonable?  (Thank you Ward for relaying the issues with that system... if this is going to be enforced the Feds need to get their %$#@ together.)
 
Now... I would request one other "compromise" on this issue.  I know it's not a problem and practically never happens... BUT; if/when a non-citizens votes (not having that right) or commits a certain level of crime (say a felony); they are immediately deported and lose all claims to asylum, legal status, etc... Reasonable?
 
Compromise On Abortion:
Exceptions for life of woman, rape, and incest.
 
Claim this was rape or incest, police are required to get involved (a crime has been committed).
 
No abortion after 1st trimester. (see exceptions)
 
Zero federal funding for any organization that provides abortions.  States can do what they want.
 
Sex education is widely available (not mandatory, parents have the final say).
 
Contraception is already super cheap.
 
And here's the one the left will throw the hissy fit over...
No abortions for the purpose of contraception (which well over 90% today).
 
Gay Marriage:
It never should have been legalized.  Now that it is, those (businesses) who object to it in any manner should have First Amendment protections.
 
Next up... polygamy, age of consent... that Pandora's box is wide open.
 
Schools:
There are a mess mainly due to their monopoly nature.  Introduce competition and consequences for failure that is currently lacking.
 
Some good discussions here; I'm glad this thread facilitated them.
Koshersalaami Added Dec 21, 2018 - 10:53am
The first issue I have is that school expenses do not divide evenly per student. You can’t heat per student. Busing fewer students raises the cost per child. Administrative costs get more expensive per child. It’s not that simple an equation, and the result is that a neighborhood school becomes so cost-inefficient that poor neighborhoods lose neighborhood schools. Given that poor people have the most difficulty with transportation, that’s not a good formula. 
 
The difference in perspective that we seem to have is that you’re worried about the highest achievers in Hell while I’m worried about Hell. Medium achievers in middle class schools have way better opportunities than medium achievers in poor schools. Be super-good or fail utterly, based on what community you’re born into? That makes neither moral nor fiscal sense. I think we need a higher safety net than that. In this case, I think the safety net should take the form of devoting at least equivalent resources to schools in poor neighborhoods which we don’t now because so much school funding comes from local taxes, and poor neighborhoods don’t have healthy tax bases by definition. 
 
Why doesn’t it make fiscal sense? Please don’t assume poor people are free to the rest of us. Those poor kids as they grow up are going to cost the rest of us a lot. They’re going to grow up to need public assistance. Many who can’t find a living doing legal work will turn to work that isn’t, which introduces a whole group of costs: enforcement, medical costs, property costs (including property values in high crime areas), court costs (never cheap), encarceration costs (room, board, medical, recreation to avoid recidivism), probation and parole monitoring costs, repeat offender costs. That’s before we get to opportunity costs: less purchasing - lower business profits, lower job creation - and less taxpaying. 
 
These kids are going to cost us money one way or another. Personally, I’m in favor of spending such that expenses drop in the future and such that we reduce overall misery. Spending one way has positive consequences, spending the other doesn’t. 
 
 
 
 
 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 21, 2018 - 11:06am
"It’s not that simple an equation, and the result is that a neighborhood school becomes so cost-inefficient that poor neighborhoods lose neighborhood schools. Given that poor people have the most difficulty with transportation, that’s not a good formula. "
 
Is that not already the complaint regarding inner city and rural schools that remain underfunded under the current system? And isn't bussing already common? This seems more like an argument against the current system than against school choice. 
 
And the rest of your comment, we already went over the detrimental impacts of the "War On Poverty" that has ... intentionally or not ... though I personally believe it to be very intentional, has created an entitled dependency class. Again, it is a complex and systemic problem. Singular solutions that temporarily alleviate individual symptoms are not going to work. There needs to be systemic reform. 
 
I cannot help but note also that you completely left out the outrageously costly administrative sections of public schools today. 
TexasLynn Added Dec 21, 2018 - 1:10pm
SK >> Polygamy was outlawed years ago.  If there is a reason to bring it back, it should be under the laws of the land, not by any religious edict.
 
All I'm saying is it will be before the courts soon, as will the legalization of a lot of other types of marriage and behavior.  Good or bad... that is where we are now.
Koshersalaami Added Dec 21, 2018 - 2:54pm
Ward,
It’s against both the current system, which has these problems, and school choice, which would make them way worse. 
 
Administrative costs: I haven’t compared public and private. Public schools are usually whole systems, private schools are usually single institutions. And a lot of the standards private schools need to meet are determined by government, meaning those costs are built into public schools but actually apply to both. 
 
Regarding deportation of aliens when they commit crimes: Actually, Bush was already doing that, and Obama did it considerably more. 
Koshersalaami Added Dec 21, 2018 - 3:01pm
Let me set something else straight. The fact that I favor government involvement in some areas doesn’t mean I think government always gets it right. Government doesn’t have to, just get it better than the alternative and we’ll do what we can to make it work better than it is. 
 
An example I like to use in cases like this is murder law. Murder law doesn’t come close to preventing all murders.  Should we eliminate it on the grounds that it’s ineffective? 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 21, 2018 - 3:17pm
"Regarding deportation of aliens when they commit crimes: Actually, Bush was already doing that, and Obama did it considerably more. "
 
Obama also counted all those turned back at the border as being "deported" which was correct from a technical or definitive standing, but those numbers were not counted as deportations before that as far as I know. 
 
"The fact that I favor government involvement in some areas doesn’t mean I think government always gets it right. Government doesn’t have to, just get it better than the alternative and we’ll do what we can to make it work better than it is. "
 
Yes, which is why I am actually engaging in an exchange of thoughts and ideas with you. However, the current system is beyond broken. I am not asking for perfection ... damn sure not from the government, but the current system is broken beyond repair and is failing the students in general and society as a whole. There is no way to polish a turd and have it come out like a gold bar smelling like roses, it will always be a turd. 
 
This brings up the question of how to break through the bureaucracy far enough to fix it ... the government sure as hell ain't gonna do it on their own. 
Koshersalaami Added Dec 21, 2018 - 4:21pm
SK,
As a liberal, I am absolutely in favor of applying laws evenly. One of our biggest complaints is that they aren’t. In terms of prosecutors and judges, I agree more than wholeheartedly. I don’t like this exclusive attention on the police when they are largely following orders. 
 
In the string of high-profile police killings of unarmed Black men, there were two cases where the prosecutor convened a grand jury in order to talk them out of indicting. This is a misuse of the office; the only reason to convene a grand jury in the first place is to get indictments - if you don’t want them, don’t convene. This happened in both the Ferguson, MO and Staten Island cases. 
 
I’m not trying to open an argument about the cases themselves, just about prosecutorial conduct. 
Koshersalaami Added Dec 22, 2018 - 12:09am
In terms of prosecutors and the police, it can get worse than mere protection, such as what happened in Ferguson and surrounding areas that attracted a Justice Department investigation. I’m not referring to the shooting here, though what was investigated sure contributed to the adversarial relationship between the community and the police. 
 
People don’t like to pay taxes but when they reduce taxes they don’t like reductions in services. This left local government functions such as the prosecutor’s office and the police with a fiscal shortfall. How did they make it up? By setting very heavy fines for minor offenses on the local poor community, fines that compounded really quickly if someone had to miss a court date due to lack of transportation or no one to watch their kids. (If they decided to leave their kids alone, that would probably also be prosecutable.) Essentially, the police were forced by their bosses to extract large parts of their budget from a local population that couldn’t afford it and didn’t deserve it. You can imagine what that did to community relations. The Justice Department concluded that this policy constituted civil rights violations. 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 22, 2018 - 12:43am
"In terms of prosecutors and the police, it can get worse than mere protection, such as what happened in Ferguson and surrounding areas that attracted a Justice Department investigation."
 
I find it disturbingly odd that the few cases that make it to the national press are generally ones wherein the officers were highly likely to be acquitted due to an actual "justified shoot" or "clean shoot" while other cases are never allowed to see the light of day, such as those of Daniel Shaver, Dustin Theoharis and others of that nature ... if one did not know that our press and government were kind and benevolent, they may actually be led to believe that this was intentional, and yet a further divide of the people. 
 
Very little ever hits the national press regarding civil forfeiture laws either, which deny any presumption of innocence and deny due process before penalties are incurred by the citizenry. 
 
Again, this makes me question that these are the people I want "protecting and serving" me ... though as was once again evidenced in Broward County courts ... the police ... neither the sheriffs have any duty to actually protect the people ... only the law. 
Koshersalaami Added Dec 22, 2018 - 6:52am
Those cases at least involved indictments. The system attempted to hold those officers responsible. Is there evidence that prosecutors were complicit? In at least the Ferguson and Staten Island cases, the Eric Garner case in Staten Island being particularly miserable given that a man was held in a chokehold while he was not only down but cuffed, prosecutors actively advocated against indictments. The police are going to do awful things, not that I think shooting a guy in a bed that many times is forgiveable under any circumstances, but at least the police were made to understand that there are consequences for that. Small comfort, but at least some. A part of the system still worked. 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 22, 2018 - 7:39am
Indictments? Have you seen the video of Dan Shaver? How about holding the government accountable to the same laws we the people are held to? That would not even come close to being a start to the overall issues we are discussing, but ... it would be at least a step in the right direction. 
 
The departments in all cases ruled they were all within departmental standards. NO internal punishment even. And there are those among your ilk who would try to convince me these are the only people we should trust to protect us? How about the fact that the cop ... and the corrections officer who was illegally on site anyhow ... were shooting him in bed during a warrantless search? Again, if you or I do that ... we are gonna be bunkmates with "bubba" for a long time. 
 
You are just not selling me any confidence in government with any of this. Theoharis had to file his own lawsuit and we the taxpayers footed the bill. Dan Shaver has yet to be determined, but the cops were acquitted ... you or I? Not going to happen. 
Koshersalaami Added Dec 22, 2018 - 9:01pm
SK,
Great comment on Disqus. That would be a great solution. 
 
Ward, 
You think I’m going to defend the cops on the grounds that they’re part of the government? No. But what’s the alternative to law enforcement, or are you advocating abolishing it altogether? 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 23, 2018 - 4:29am
""How about a law that sets up an independent investigation of any police accusation? "
 
Citizen Review Boards have been shut down by government everywhere I know personally someone has made an effort to implement them ... mainly in Orlando. 
 
Abolishing it no, but holding them to account? Absolutely. Getting government to "agree" to "allow" the people it "represents" to hold them to account is going to be the challenge. Government by its very nature, seeks to rule us, not serve us. Like Dave, I have written a book about how to do it. I have marketed the concept to numerous countries who have agreed to implement it, primarily in isolated locations and/or among the indigenous populations, but funding for that is going to be a big PITA ... but I continue working on it. It is one of the reasons I am in such dire straits right now, but no pain no gain, no guts and no glory. Again, this is part of why I have spent so much of my life in third world countries and developing nations. The US will not even think about allowing these solutions to be introduced, much less implemented. 
Koshersalaami Added Dec 23, 2018 - 7:02am
Have you read Dave's book? I'm still early in it. 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 23, 2018 - 8:05am
Nope. Not yet. Given his propensity for government solutions, while we would perhaps have much in common, I suspect there would be numerous irreconcilable differences as well. I have worked extensively with native and indigenous tribes around the world though, so, all of the people that have worked on it seem to believe that it will work if we can ever get it implemented ... or get the indigenous tribes to quit selling their natural resources for debentures that have never yet been paid off even at face value ... but working on that still as well. 
Koshersalaami Added Dec 23, 2018 - 9:10am
I haven’t yet asked Dave to summarize. Can I ask you to? 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 23, 2018 - 9:35am
I could send you a five hundred page manuscript ... maybe shorter if I convert it to A4 ... about 125K words if I remember. Not trying to sell it here, but if you want a copy, happy to share. 
Ward Tipton Added Dec 23, 2018 - 9:51am
Don't use dropbox or any other third party software that claims ownership of anything I post there. But happy to send you a pdf or kindle format if you want.