What Constitutes a Rogue State??

My Recent Posts

  • A country that flouts international law
  • A country that shows aggression towards other states
  • A country that interferes with the internal politics of other countries
  • A country that props up tyrannies in other States in order to gain advantage
  • A country that starts wars
  • A country that uses corruption, secret operations, bribes, propaganda and misinformation to gain advantage
  • Human rights violations
  • Committing atrocities

If any country does any of these things it should be considered a Rogue State.

Sound familiar?

Comments

Gerrilea Added Jan 31, 2019 - 7:56pm
Opher G--- Damn you.  There is only 1 nation that fits the bill exactly!
 
Iceland, right?
 
(wink, wink)
 
American Imperialism at it's finest, Hooray!
 
We've killed up to 30 million people worldwide, since the end of WWII.
 
Our autocracies go back to the "Monroe Doctrine" and "Manifest Destiny".
 
We rationalize evil sooo well, don't we???
 
 
 
 
Gerrilea Added Jan 31, 2019 - 8:00pm
Opher G--- Please indulge one more post from me.  I was watching a Pentagon "what if scenario" where the United States was attacked by the entire world. Do you know who would win?
 
We would, we'd kill 2/3rd's of humanity off in the first 45 minutes.
 
I can state, without qualifications: "Force rules this world", it always has and always will.
 
A. Jones Added Jan 31, 2019 - 8:12pm
We've killed up to 30 million people worldwide, since the end of WWII.
 
Source for that claim?
The Owl Added Jan 31, 2019 - 8:12pm
I am afraid, Gerrilea, that neither of us would like living in the world that you envision...
 
Not because it isn't a fervent dream of most mankind, but because of the few hundred million that would see it as an opportunity to fleece the sheep the way that Vlad and Nickie have done.
 
Your dreams, like Opher's, crash on the rocks of reality.
 
 
Logical Man Added Jan 31, 2019 - 9:22pm
A country, that has been at war for 93% of its existence isn't all bad, but it might be responsible for the odd death, here and there, totally by accident, of course.
During the Cold War, I could never figure out how destroying all human life was in some way a sensible approach to ensuring 'freedom'. Still can't quite figure that one out.
 
Leroy Added Jan 31, 2019 - 9:27pm
Sounds like the UK and Chris Steele.  Am I right?
Logical Man Added Jan 31, 2019 - 9:38pm
Nope.
 
Leroy Added Jan 31, 2019 - 9:54pm
I know.  Russia!  That's the left's boogeyman.
Logical Man Added Jan 31, 2019 - 9:55pm
Nope.
 
Gerrilea Added Jan 31, 2019 - 10:59pm
A Jones--- Follow the link in my posting.
 
The Owl--- I'm not sure that I've ever shared my "vision" of a world where I'd enjoy being a part of.  Maybe this one without humanity on it but I don't need an agenda or goal to know the difference between good and evil.
 
I am also keenly aware that "might makes right" from an historical perspective.  It doesn't mean that evil wasn't an inherent part of the equation either.
 
"Hi, I'm here with the government and I'm here to kill you for your own good...wait, I mean here to help you!"
 
Flying Junior Added Feb 1, 2019 - 3:58am
Consider yourself warned, Messano.
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 4:21am
Mogg - trite?? If you say so. Or perhaps something that you merely do not wish to confront or engage with?
Obviously the list was kept in its simplest form. All the issues are complex. Each one is a discussion point.
Starting wars? Now there's a debate? Is dealing with an aggressor technically starting a war? Could the 2nd World War have been avoided? Who started it? Hitler's expansionist policies were spelt out clearly. Alliances were also clear. It was inevitable. But who started it?
But then let us take the Vietnam war? Or the invasion of Iraq? Or Afghanistan? Panama? Syria? Libya?
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 4:32am
Gerri - So true!! It really is time we dealt with the threat of Iceland. They are getting away with murder.
I think that we accept the explanations for going to war too easily.
I'm not sure if you are right about the US winning. Their track record isn't very good.
Korea - lost
Cuba - lost
Vietnam - lost
Cambodia - Lost
Iraq - lost
Libya - lost
Syria - lost
Afghanistan - lost
To look for a win you have to go back to the likes of Panama and Dominican Republic.
Of course you could simply nuke everyone but you'd probably get more than a few coming back your way if you go down that route.
But then I take your point. Strength rules. 
It will be interesting to see what happens when the balance of power changes in the next twenty years - China? India?
It is interesting to see the tactics used to retain an economic hold on things. But that grip is loosening. The US hasn't covered itself in glory. Getting booted out of country after country shows its limitations. China is playing a different game - more subtle.
The EU is a clear example. The US wanted Brexit. A powerful bloc is a threat.
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 4:34am
A. Jones - don't you ever post anything of your own? Does Autumn just allow you to bomb other threads without posting?
Do you think it's more that 30 million?
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 4:36am
Owl - The rocks of reality. Thank you. A great line for a poem. You have inspired me.
I am familiar with reality. I don't like it. I want to make it better.
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 4:40am
Log - just 93% of its existence? I'm struggling to think of a period when it wasn't. Certainly not in modern history. War is the perpetual truth. Orwell wrote about the need to constantly have an enemy in order to direct the hate. Communism does very nicely on that score. It keeps popping up in different places! Damn this human thirst for fairness!
Mutual Assured Destruction sure is a MAD idea. You are free to be shitless.
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 4:41am
Leroy - there are so many rogue states aren't there? It's difficult to choose one.
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 4:43am
FJ - leave the child. He's an irritant. I just swat him away.
Neil Lock Added Feb 1, 2019 - 5:45am
Opher: I don't think that in today's a state has to be particularly "rogue" in order to do any, or even all, of the things you list. That's just what states do.
 
Oh, and as to the threat posed by Iceland, the UK already tried to deal with that... in the Cod Wars of the 1970s. The Icelanders won 4-0, didn't they?
George N Romey Added Feb 1, 2019 - 7:42am
Opher war no longer has nothing to do with winning and losing.  You don't seem to grasp the real reason for war.  It's money.  Money to the bankers and money to the MIC.  As long as war is a profitable venture it will be raged on.  And as we move towards your vision of some kind of "global government" there will be more war.  After all other countries will want to get in on the money making scheme.
 
Now maybe if we had "nationalism" (the kind that I give Trump credit for) we might not have wars as countries would mine their own damn business and stop trying to interfere with others in the name of "good."
Steel Breeze Added Feb 1, 2019 - 9:10am
it aint easy being the big dog.....
Gerrilea Added Feb 1, 2019 - 10:12am
Opher G-- Whew, at least we agree on Iceland....I was worried there for a moment, they had the audacity to jail their banksters and cancel their nations debt back in 2008.  Ugh those criminals, they just won't play by the well established "international norms" that keep the masses in perpetual poverty and at each others throats.
 
They just won't play fair!!!
 
ROFL.
 
You know, when your #1, there is only one way to go....down.
 
That's why I'd settle for being #2 or #3 or at least in the top 10! It keeps you hungry for more.
 
Ughhhhh.
 
 
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 1, 2019 - 11:55am
Opher, my list would have different top items.  The first one would be to not protection citizens.  So the state murdering their citizens would be top on my list.  The first act of these states is to classify identifiable portion of their citizens or residents as less then human, second or even lesser citizens.  All socialist and Islamic state have done this and even all democratic socialist states which include the USA, all of Europe, and all members of the British Empire, Japan, Korea, and other westernized nations.   
 
All fully implemented socialist (communist, fascist, etc.) and Islamic Caliphate  states have committed genocide to their own citizens. This follows first making them lesser humans.  
 
The second on my list would be those nations with an ideology that places their form of government above all others, ordained.  If effect the government is a religion and the members of this religion are members of a higher form of humans thus have a the right to displace by any means or convert by any means the citizens of other nations.    Islam proclaims this superiority as does Communism and Fascism.  Socialism shares the belief in superiority, for all flavors including Communism and Fascism.
 
The nations that meet my two criteria also achieve all of the items on your list.  The reverse is not true.  The first right of any nation is to survive.  Thus Israel 'flouts international law' from the UN that calls for it to not exist or give up land.   History is full of nations that respond to the actions of other nations by'shows aggression towards other states'  Thomas Jefferson ordered the Navy to attack the Barbary Pirates.  Pres Trump is breaking trade agreements and imposing tariff because of uneven tariff from other countries so is demanding change,'interferes with the internal politics of other countries.'
 
Europe divided up the Middle East after WWI by, 'props up tyrannies in other States in order to gain advantage' the prevention of another caliphate empire.
 
Did the USA start a war with Afganistan Talban or did they let a terrorist group start a war with us?   Starting a war in not always that clear.  Did we start a war in Vietnam or not?
 
This is observed, has been standard practice of every nation in history going back to the stone age, 'country that uses corruption, secret operations, bribes, propaganda and misinformation to gain advantage.' 
 
The last two are really one.  And are part of my first one. 
Jeff Jackson Added Feb 1, 2019 - 12:20pm
opher, join the club. Mogg says everything is trite. The only people who don't want to destroy or rob the U.S. are the people who want to live here. Apparently 13 million illegals aren't enough.
Gerrilea Added Feb 1, 2019 - 12:42pm
Thomas S--- Surely you're aware of the term "Democide", correct?
 
In the 20th Century alone, governments have killed 289 million of their own citizens.
 
As for your canard on "did we start a war".
 
Afghanistan didn't attack us, 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
 
Wait what about that invasion of Iraq? They didn't attack us, again 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
 
Didn't we attack them twice?  And wasn't it because of fake testimony of the Kuwaiti ambassadors daughter before Congress?
 
Yep.
 
"Iraqi soldiers were taking babies out of incubators and throwing them on the floor!"
 
The Gulf of Tonkin incident that took us into the Vietnam War was an admitted Israeli false-flag that our government condoned.
 
WWII
 
WWI
 
The further we go back, in our own history we find false flags and yellow journalism is how we've gotten into ever major conflict.  Excepting of course the Revolution and maybe the Civil War.
 
"Remember the Maine!"
 
I'll say this, "Every War is a Banksters War".  Repeat it 3 times until you understand that war is money to these bastards, it's not about "good vs. evil", it never has been and never will be.
 
Unrepentant Added Feb 1, 2019 - 1:47pm
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. DING DING DING!!! We have a winner!!!
 
Apparently, WB's resident communists are butt-hurt that, not surprisingly, yet another socialist state is a dismal failure, plunging its unfortunate citizens into death, destruction, and general hard times because of their extraordinary incompetence and stupidity.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 1, 2019 - 3:49pm
This is the point of adding to the top new conditions: <<In the 20th Century alone, governments have killed 289 million of their own citizens.>>Gerrilea 
 
Al-Qaeda at the time was organizing the attack from Afganistan. <<Afghanistan didn't attack us, 15 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.>>  The Taliban government chose to protected them.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 1, 2019 - 3:55pm
Gerrilea you forgot about Granada and Panama.  Yep, USA has done questionable things to point to something as a reason for starting a war.  WWI, WWII, and Korea were not started by the USA  Vietnam also was not started by the USA but how we replaced France is questionable.  
Dave Volek Added Feb 1, 2019 - 4:44pm
Iceland had a lesbian prime minister. More than enough reason to invade. And that might even be a winnable war.
 
Oh yes, I forgot to mention that Canada had a genocide in 1982 where one half of the country genocided the other half. The roots were the 1965 decision to institute public health care, which moved Canada significantly left in the social/capitalist spectrum. Of course we all know that genocides follow socialist takeovers, right Thomas?
 
Oh, you didn't hear about that Canadian genocide? There was also a big coverup. Lack of free press in socialism as well. And the journalists were also genocided just to make sure the word didn't come out. 
 
If you hear no more of me on Writerbeat, assume that a big black Ford Falcon came to my house at 4:00 a.m. and whisked me away in the trunk. That's how they used to do it in Argentina.
 
I know too much. I talk too much!
 
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 5:50pm
Mogg - yes you are right. Quite a trick to pull off.
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 5:52pm
Neil - or does it mean that many states are rogue? But one is the roguest of the rougues.
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 5:55pm
George - what makes you think I don't understand that? It's all been about money. That is the problem.
How would nationalism solve the problem? When have countries minded their own business? Why is Trump bothered about Nicaragua?
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 5:58pm
Thomas - The first one would be to not protection citizens.
You mean like leaving them homeless, under flyovers and without healthcare?
Since when has communism and fascism been socialist?
I can't say I was greatly aware of genocide when we've had socialist governments. Likewise I haven't heard of the great Scandinavian massacres.
Me thinks you are spouting the same old propaganda.
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 5:59pm
Yo Jeff. It's a big club.
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 6:01pm
Gerri - I agree - war is about money - but it is also about influence and power.
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 6:03pm
Thomas - The US started those wars. They invented things like WMD and blamed Muslim extremism but as Gerri pointed out - the terrorists came from Saudi.
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 6:04pm
Jolly - not sure what we've won. 
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 6:05pm
Thomas - I think you will find that Korea and Vietnam were started by the USA.
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 6:07pm
Mogg - I reckon the US might move to the top of the list with the number of bombs dropped, napalm and agent orange.
Leroy Added Feb 1, 2019 - 6:07pm
I just know that you guys booted the French out of Nova Scotia who ended up in Louisiana.  
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 6:09pm
Dave - good point. Surely sufficient for the Christian right to invade and kill every last one of them to save their souls!
You really shouldn't mention the Canadian socialist genocide. I'll try and keep quiet about the British social genocides too. Let them keep their dreams.
Tubularsock Added Feb 1, 2019 - 6:14pm
opher, rogue state? Your list seems to identify a regular state in this world. Nothing rogue about it.
 
It’s the MORAL high-ground that the U.S. spouts that is the most disgusting.
 
And damn it! We’ll torture you until you say YES!
opher goodwin Added Feb 1, 2019 - 6:18pm
Tub - Yes!! I give in!
Tubularsock Added Feb 1, 2019 - 7:32pm
Mogg, the Communists didn't cease fighting and won in-spit of the napalm and bombing and have ended up being a trading partner of American armaments.
 
And currently the the U.S. is a laughing stock of the world because of the inflated Orangetweet.
 
This ". . . emerging the nation everyone else envies and or admires" has lost some of that luster but you just keep believing, Mogg.
Logical Man Added Feb 1, 2019 - 7:38pm
Sometimes someone puts things so well, no further comment is required.
This applies everywhere government exists.
They don't give a fuck about you!
Logical Man Added Feb 1, 2019 - 8:13pm
You must live in US if you believe America is envied and admired.
In Europe US is, mostly, despised, but given the usual consequences of not bowing down to the bully, many governments go along for self-serving purposes. The average guy in the street is mostly less than sympathetic to US.
I'm fairly confident that US is less than popular in many other places. Iraq, Libya, Palestine, North Korea, Iran, Syria...... it's a long list.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 1, 2019 - 9:27pm
Opher <<Since when has communism and fascism been socialist?>> Nazi means national socialist.   Marx used quite often Socialism and Communism interchangeably.   Communism only adds the means of achieving the socialist goals by a revolution.
Tubularsock Added Feb 2, 2019 - 1:47am
Mogg Tsur, you appear to be an intelligent fellow so you must admit that Orangetweet is funny.
 
His constant “center of attention” issues and his constant belief that if you repeat something often enough it becomes “true” is pretty hilarious, if you ask Tubularsock.
 
So it is NOT Tubularsock’s “cliche assessment” of Dumps humor value, it is a plain “FACT” that anyone can ascertain from observation.
 
Just this recent exchange between Dump and his Intelligence Agencies where their appraisals of world confrontations contradicts Dumps lack of understanding of foreign affairs is a case in point.
 
Now Tubularsock is not a fan of the CIA and the rest of those assholes but Dumps response is a perfect example of a “laughing stock” moment.
 
Come on, Mogg. Where’s you sense of humor?
 
Cheers.
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 5:57am
Thomas - we've been over this so many times. The NAZIs assumed the moniker to win support from the working class. They were an extreme right-wing party as far from socialism as you can get.
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 6:00am
Mogg - I think that what a country chooses to do, as with becoming communist, is up to them. Other countries, like the US, have no right to interfere. If there are atrocities and abuse of human rights then it is up to the UN to step in - not the States.
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 6:01am
Mogg - Vietnam is now communist. It appears to be functioning fine. I visited it last year. 
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 6:03am
Log - I do like George Carling
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 6:05am
Log - I think the US is looked at with amazement. People can't believe that Americans believe what they do, do what they do, and think what they think.
Dino Manalis Added Feb 2, 2019 - 7:50am
 Few are considered rogue states, but the way you describe it any foreign intervention would be liable.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 2, 2019 - 8:34am
Opher  the spin is not working <<The NAZIs assumed the moniker to win support from the working class. They were an extreme right-wing party as far from socialism as you can get.>>  NAZI STANDS FOR NATIONAL SOCIALIST.   NAZI STANDS FOR NATIONAL SOCIALIST.   That means it is LEFT, not right.    Facts are Facts.
 
NAZINationalsozialist (member of NSDAP)   https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/NAZI
 
A member of the w:Nazi PartyNational Socialist German Workers Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, commonly called the NSDAP or Nazi Party).    
 
One who subscribes to or advocates (neo-)Nazism or a similarly fascist, racist, or anti-Semitic ideology; a neo-Nazi.
 
from wikipedia
 "Initially, Nazi political strategy focused on anti-big businessanti-bourgeois and anti-capitalist rhetoric, although such aspects were later downplayed in order to gain the support of industrial entities and in the 1930s the party's focus shifted to anti-Semitic and anti-Marxist themes."   
 
Nazi was against world wide socialism  "including the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD) and the Communist Party of Germany (KPD)."     As you see from the first sentence that the principle of the party is the same as socialism.  The focus group of people are different.
Stone-Eater Added Feb 2, 2019 - 10:17am
Gerri
 
What intelligence can't do, weapons can.....
Stone-Eater Added Feb 2, 2019 - 10:20am
Oph
 
The US is a rogue state, and so is France and the UK.
 
Every country that does not respect the UN charta is a rogue state....
Stone-Eater Added Feb 2, 2019 - 10:24am
Mogg
 
You may not realize it over there but the rest of the world is afraid of the US and thinks they are like a bunch of kindergarten bullys with grenades...
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 2:50pm
Dino - I reckon that there are a lot of rogue states. If they hold power they think they are above the law.
While Guantanamo exists and other countries are interfered with and invaded, the US will be a rogue state.
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 2:59pm
Thomas facts are facts. I suggest you look it up.
 
Far-right politics are politics further on the right of the left-right spectrum than the standard political right, particularly in terms of extreme nationalism, nativist ideologies, and authoritarian tendencies. The term is often used to describe Nazism, neo-Nazism, fascism, ... In the United States, the term hard right has been used to describe groups .
 
Here's one definition.





The National Socialist German Workers' Party  abbreviated NSDAP), commonly referred to in English as the Nazi Party  was a far-right political party in Germany that was active between 1920 and 1945, that created and supported the ideology of Nazism. Its precursor, the German Workers' Party 
 
Thomas - it does not take much to check out something as straightforward as this. Look it up before spouting off. The Nazis were extreme far-right fascists.




 
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 3:03pm
Stone - I thoroughly agree. The US, UK, France and many others are rogue states. Any country that does not abide by the UN charter is rogue.
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 3:04pm
Mogg/Stone
You may not realize it over there but the rest of the world is afraid of the US and thinks they are like a bunch of kindergarten bullys with grenades...
About sums it up for me.
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 3:07pm
Thomas - this is elementary stuff:
'Nazi' is the short name. The full name for the 'Nazi' party was the "National Socialist German Workers' Party" ("Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" in German).
The fact that the far-right party contained 'socialist' in the name was a rebranding gambit to target="_blank" rel="nofollow">draw workers away from communism and into populist nationalism.
 
You really do need to do some serious thinking.
George N Romey Added Feb 2, 2019 - 3:24pm
Opher why do I think you have no idea of what you are doing about?You're talking about the abiding by the "UN charter."  Just what organization do you think carries out the military threat and actions of the US, UK, and France?  The UN is the baseball bat of rogue nations.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 2, 2019 - 4:11pm
Russia and China appear to fulfill all these attributes. 
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 2, 2019 - 4:14pm
Opher
 
"You really do need to do some serious thinking."
 
Stalin said he could do business with Hitler. Sounds like brothers and then they decided to cut up Poland and the Baltic states for the benefit of both dictatorships. Brothers of the same cloth. 
 
Opher needs to do some non-political thinking. 
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 2, 2019 - 4:15pm
Opher
 
"Any country that does not abide by the UN charter is rogue."
 
And, how many nations would that be I wonder?? 5? 8?
Logical Man Added Feb 2, 2019 - 5:46pm
As soon as an organization passes a size threshold, it would appear that corruption sets in.
The last person should be given power over others is he who wants it.
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 7:08pm
George - it will come as no surprise that I do not share your disdain of the UN. It is a body that has done a great deal of good and will continue to do so - the highest level of civilisation so far. Perfect - no - far from it - but still the greatest hope for the future.
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 7:09pm
rycK - yep - they join The US, the UK, France and a load more.
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 7:11pm
rycK - it is no surprise to me that two dictator tyrants thought they could do business together. They both shared the same attributes. But in the end only one of them would be left. They were both ruthless and untrustworthy.
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 7:12pm
rycK - oh I reckon more than 8.
opher goodwin Added Feb 2, 2019 - 7:13pm
Log - I do not think it is about size. Many of the tiniest states are ruled by corruption. Size merely makes it more obvious and larger in scale.
Ward Tipton Added Feb 3, 2019 - 8:15am
What Constitutes a Rogue State??
The presence of a State government!!
 
I know.  Russia!  That's the left's boogeyman.
 
Except that the American Communist Party, the Democrat Socialists of America and the American Workers Party have all supported a straight D ballot since their exception with the only exceptions being when actual and open Communist Candidates were running. 
 
Ward Tipton Added Feb 3, 2019 - 8:16am
Opher? Are you really going to go there? Really? Size doesn't matter? Better not tell that to Dr. Green! 
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 3, 2019 - 8:53am
Opher?  Nazi's actual government has more in common with the principles of the far left then the far right.  What people like you are trying to do is to change the principles of the far right to those of the left. 
 
The principles of the right and far right are most clearly presented in the Declaration of Independence.   The actions of the USA that are written down by Alex Tocqueville in his two volume book 'Democracy in America.'
 
The principles of the left is seen in the actions of the USSR and communist China.   Nazi actual actions match them.
 
It is a common practice of the left to take over words and change their meaning.  For example 'liberal'.   The founders of America are liberals and the people they quote are liberals.   Now we have to specify 'classic liberals'  for them.   Those that understand the difference specify 'modern liberals' for today's liberals.
Doug Plumb Added Feb 3, 2019 - 9:44am
The United States and the West have been the greatest creation of mankind, but they got corrupted. Clean up the corruption and the engines will run smooth. Honest money will fix all the problems - and quickly ! No more controlled press and people will learn and understand the truth quickly and want "the good" as it is defined in a Western sense.
Logical Man Added Feb 3, 2019 - 9:45am
All the world's major problems come about from a few whack-jobs with delusions of grandeur thinking they have the right to tell others what to do and using whatever means is necessary to get into power and hold on to it no matter what.
To quote part of one of my favourite songs "The leaders of the 'free world' are just little boys throwing stones and it's easy to ignore till they're knocking on the doors of your homes"
 
Doug Plumb Added Feb 3, 2019 - 9:53am
A Rogue State is created when it permits outside interests to manage its money and affairs, as has happened with the Fed, all its "think tanks" and the dumbing down of Americans through public education.
The Rogue State manages its affairs by using the state as a tool of its own Agenda, in this case, furthering the interests of the Jewish oligarchy (certainly not the Jewish people, who are merely pawns in this like everyone else) and putting those interests ahead of the country. The multiple foreign occupations and wars prove this. In no way is the spreading of communism through war in the interest of American people. The purpose of these wars and foreign occupations is and has always been to put the money interest into power world wide for a one world Talmudic government.
Doug Plumb Added Feb 3, 2019 - 9:56am
The group that stands in the way of a return to sanity has always been the Evangelicals. They are much more at fault than the Jewish people.
Ana Ross Added Feb 3, 2019 - 5:04pm
opher goodwin
Korea - lost
Cuba - lost
Vietnam - lost
Cambodia - Lost
Iraq - lost
Libya - lost
Syria - lost
Afghanistan - lost

I question whether any of the losses were really losses.  Chaos is the goal for the United states.  For example WIth Iraq the goal wasnt to take the oil there but to create chaos and keep the pumps closed.  Iraq has some of the biggest oil fields in the world and as long as Iraq is in Chaos that oil will stay in the grounds thus raising the prices artificially and keeping the profits high for America and Saudis.  Vietnam, the goal again was Chaos to provide an example to any country that has the nerve to think that the resources of that country belong to its citizens.  Lesson learned.  ALl America intends in each of these cases and many many more is to create chaos and corpses, the more the better.  By creating dead bodies the peasants leave and land becomes available a cut rate prices. That has been the strategy consistently since nuclear weapons meant that conventional war was no longer winnable.  The goal has been to create chaos where ever possible and to that extent America has been highly successful. Read Naomi Klein's book the shock doctrine. 
opher goodwin Added Feb 3, 2019 - 7:04pm
Ward - already been there!
opher goodwin Added Feb 3, 2019 - 7:06pm
Thomas - you are talking absolute rubbish. It is you that has got it around the wrong way. 
Nazis were extreme right-wing nationalistic fascists.
opher goodwin Added Feb 3, 2019 - 7:07pm
Doug - that is arrogant baloney. 
The greatest invention of man?? The most unscrupulous maybe? 
opher goodwin Added Feb 3, 2019 - 7:08pm
Doug - a rogue state is created when it arrogantly assumes the right to interfere with other states.
opher goodwin Added Feb 3, 2019 - 7:09pm
Log - I think you are right. There is a psychotic delusion about power. It's a human flaw. It makes a mess of everything.
opher goodwin Added Feb 3, 2019 - 7:11pm
Ana - while there is an element of truth in what you say I do not really think that the US wanted to get its arse kicked and suffer the humiliation. I think they poured bombs and lives into trying their damnedest to win.
But yes - sowing seeds of chaos is second best.
Stone-Eater Added Feb 3, 2019 - 7:36pm
Ana
 
Good one.
Stone-Eater Added Feb 3, 2019 - 7:40pm
When one decides to immigrate to Russia he''s given a hectar of land for free under the condition he works the land.
Ward Tipton Added Feb 3, 2019 - 8:17pm
"Thomas - you are talking absolute rubbish. It is you that has got it around the wrong way. 
Nazis were extreme right-wing nationalistic fascists."
 
See my article about the two belief systems of the left-right paradigm. Historically Opher, the farther right one goes, the less governance there is, and the farther left one goes the more totalitarian the governments become. This belief still holds true for many on the "far right" while most of those on the left have totalitarian systems of a different stripe on both the left and the right, with no room in their paradigm for a truly libertarian or even anarchic system. You two are discussing different views and definitions. 
Ward Tipton Added Feb 3, 2019 - 8:18pm
I have actually been offered Asylum by some Russian acquaintances ... though not sure that is a viable option given the political climate of the day. 
Logical Man Added Feb 3, 2019 - 9:08pm
Left, Right, Left, Right ..... as we march toward oblivion.
Ward Tipton Added Feb 3, 2019 - 10:17pm
That pretty well sums it up Logical Man, literally and metaphorically. 
opher goodwin Added Feb 4, 2019 - 3:56am
Ward - I think you will find that both extremes result in a totalitarian state. Both end up looking the same. When you have tyrants like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini and Franco the end result is similar.
But to argue that extreme right-wing Nazis were left-wing socialists is Orwellian double-speak.
opher goodwin Added Feb 4, 2019 - 3:56am
Stone - I'd go to Russia but I don't like the climate.
opher goodwin Added Feb 4, 2019 - 3:57am
Log - Lol.
Ward Tipton Added Feb 4, 2019 - 4:25am
"But to argue that extreme right-wing Nazis were left-wing socialists is Orwellian double-speak."
 
Again, look at the article I wrote providing the historical context ... it would help if you at least understand what the other people are saying. I understand what you are saying, and while I view it differently, that understanding allows me to comprehend meaning and context ... words have meaning for a reason, but these days, they are far too fluid and too easily perverted in the name of Political Correctness. You may disagree even when you know what he means, but at least you will understand what he means. 
 
Just as a point of curiosity. If the far left is totalitarian and the far right is totalitarian ... where is there any room for a limited government or an anarchic society in that paradigm? The simple answer is it does not exist ... which is why so many people who believe in a strongly restricted and limited government view the National Socialists as left wing ideologies ... again, understanding even if you do not agree at least helps you to know what is being discussed ... even when you may disagree. 
Doug Plumb Added Feb 4, 2019 - 4:26am
A rogue state is ignorant of the common law, like you are Opher. Are you ready to be a Noahide?
opher goodwin Added Feb 4, 2019 - 7:34am
Ward - I can see that the end result of right-wing and left-wing ideology can create a tyranny that feels very much the same but the process for getting there is totally different.
Hitler was a right-wing populist leader who used nationalism and racism to gain popularity. 
Stalin ran on the premise of seizing control from the elite and giving it back to the people.
opher goodwin Added Feb 4, 2019 - 7:35am
Doug - you're stuck in a rut with this common law thing. A rogue state does precisely what I explained in does in my article.
Ward Tipton Added Feb 4, 2019 - 7:38am
Again.
 
Just as a point of curiosity. If the far left is totalitarian and the far right is totalitarian ... where is there any room for a limited government or an anarchic society in that paradigm? The simple answer is it does not exist ... which is why so many people who believe in a strongly restricted and limited government view the National Socialists as left wing ideologies.
Doug Plumb Added Feb 4, 2019 - 11:05am
"Rogue" means "Lawless" and that is exactly what you stand for as a member of the left. Can you can tell me where the laws come from in this Utopia?
Doug Plumb Added Feb 4, 2019 - 11:08am
re "The simple answer is it does not exist ..."
 
But it has been close. A heavily taxed (maybe not as much as now) loop hole free taxation for corporations could fund all of government and the class who require support, and perhaps a guaranteed minimum income. We just could not afford all the wars and foreign occupations. Honest money is where the answer lies, if this is it or not.
opher goodwin Added Feb 4, 2019 - 12:10pm
Doug - the UN Charter of Human Rights - the best document man has ever written.
opher goodwin Added Feb 4, 2019 - 12:11pm
Doug - yes - a rogue state does not abide by the international law as laid down by the UN.
opher goodwin Added Feb 4, 2019 - 12:13pm
Ward - I do not believe anarchy can work outside of small communities. 8 Billion people cannot be supported through anarchy.
Democratic socialism is a marrying of socialist principles with capitalist principles. It is not totalitarian and it respects individual rights - it's fairer, more compassionate and better all round.
Ward Tipton Added Feb 4, 2019 - 2:37pm
So you deny the existence of an actual right because you do not believe it will work. You do understand a great many people here do not believe socialism will work because of human nature being what it is, but we do not deny its existence or remove it from our conception of left and right because we do not believe it will work. 
Doug Plumb Added Feb 4, 2019 - 2:58pm
The UN is not God Opher.
opher goodwin Added Feb 4, 2019 - 6:51pm
Doug - god is not god either - he's an imaginary being.
opher goodwin Added Feb 4, 2019 - 6:52pm
Ward - did I say it didn't exist? I said it can't work.
Ward Tipton Added Feb 4, 2019 - 10:08pm
Then where is it on your left-right line?
 
"Doug - yes - a rogue state does not abide by the international law as laid down by the UN."
 
You mean like ... the UN ... and their "peacekeeping" forces that are not concerned at all with the UN Charter?
opher goodwin Added Feb 5, 2019 - 11:35am
Ward - I don't think that it operates on that line. It is neither left nor right.
No - I don't believe those exaggerated stories about the peacekeeping forces. Some of them have been badly misbehaved but no more than any other army in a foreign country. Soldiers are not always the most intelligent. Put a gun and power in the hands of people and some abuse it. That's human nature and has happened everywhere in every war.
I taught in LA next to a German born lady who had been in Berlin as a fourteen year old girl in a sector liberated by the Americans. She said to me that if the parents of those fresh-faced boys had known what they'd done in Berlin they would never allow them back in their houses again.
Does that mean all Americans are diabolical?
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 5, 2019 - 12:17pm
 Opher is a three-trick pony
 
[1]  socialism is best
[2]  socialism is best
[3]  socialism is best
 
yadda yadda yadda
Logical Man Added Feb 5, 2019 - 7:23pm
rycK, is that the best you can do?
 
What a waste of bandwidth, however small.
Ana Ross Added Feb 6, 2019 - 6:14am
Thomas Sutrina Nazi has socialism in the name therefore its socialist
This means that the Democratic peoples republic of Korea is a Democracy?I mean democracy is right in the name. And Hitler did a lot of mean things but its not like he'd lie right?
Ana Ross Added Feb 6, 2019 - 6:23am
Opher Goodwin
The UN is fatally flawed by its subservience to US policy. The UNs role in the spread of disease in the spread of imperialism, in the kowtowing to US wishes regarding the Korean war and the creation of Israel ,the utter subservience in its support for genocidal sanctions at the behest of its master re Iraq,Iran and Venezuela. It has nice sounding  documents but without the US pulling its strings it has no teeth.   It can never fulfill its role as a moderating influence so long as it relies on the US for its marching orders.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 6, 2019 - 8:08am
Ana Ross, good comment that a name doesn't have to match the actual actions.  In the case of Nazi the actions of the National socialist do match their actions.  Nazi Germany, Communist China, and the USSR I believe like North Korea define themselves as democracies.  At least I absolutely know the two communist nations do.  PS North Korea was significantly supported by both also and is a communist country.    All four have a 'GOD' like leader who's word was the law, man's law, with no room for a different opinion.  All of them committed holocaust against some portion or class of people in their nation.  These people were lesser humans and thus expendable.  The means of and timing of the holocaust are different but the end results the same.  Islam caliphates also follow the same format.  The Ottoman Empire committed the Armenian holocaust.  The man's laws followed are from the early leaders of the religion but still men laws.  I have challenged Muslims to provide one profit in the history of Judaism prior to 720 AD that was at the same time a government official. 
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 2:32pm
rycK - no - nature is best.
Fairness is best
War and exploitation is crap.
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 2:32pm
Ana - a very good analogy.
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 2:34pm
Ana - I would agree with you about the UN. It is held down by vetoes and financing from the US.
But it's the best we've got.
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 2:35pm
Thomas - you still don't get it. Hitler was an extreme right-wing nationalist. Nazis were extreme right-wing popularist nationalists.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 6, 2019 - 3:36pm
It  appears that one might argue either way given the facts from Snopes. Hitler was good buddies with Stalin and they even cooperated in tank exercises, a plan to divide Poland between them and later another plan to chop up the Baltic states.
https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/09/05/were-nazis-socialists/
 
Also Johannes "Hans" Friedrich Leopold von Seeckt worked with the Russians to train officers  in Russia outside the limits of the Treaty of Versailles.
 
In the book entitled Sword and Swastika by Telford Taylor, Simon  &  Schuster 1952 , first printing,  there is a chapter starting on p 36 entitled the Reichswehr and the Russians. There was a secret German group called the Sondergruppe  who had a major unit in Russia in the 1920s. A company was established in both Berlin and Moscow called the Society for the Promotion of Industrial Enterprises or GEFU. There was joint  military training by both Russians and Germans in Russia [in secret] and research started in tanks, aircraft, poison gas and other war materials and also ammunition production in the Urals and Leningrad. Politics forced the manufacturing phases to be suspended in 1926 due to  a speech by Scheidemann in the Reichstag. The training and other collaboration continued on until Hitler turned on his ally. 
 
Fascism was started off by Mussolini  about 1919, the editor of the biggest socialist newspaper in Italy. He was a socialist like his father. Hitler's system was patterned after Italy and the subsequent   political noise about socialists versus Fascists continued after the war in a effort for the communists to get as far away as they could from their former allies. This worked, the Fascists had a bad name and the Russians were essentially "pure". 
 
 Russia and Germany worked for years to tear apart Poland, a major problem for both nations. 
 
 
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 6, 2019 - 4:23pm
OPher you do not get it.  if you look, act, and quack like a 'duck!'  Your a DUCK. 
 
Action for action is a direct comparison of  Communist China and Nazi Germany.  Both have committed a holocaust against their citizens, lock of the opposition including religion, performed infanticide. have conquered neighboring nations, and have a coalition with business to keep the economy afloat.  The leaders rule by man made laws that change at the whim of that single leader. 
Ward Tipton Added Feb 6, 2019 - 11:58pm
"rycK - no - nature is best.
Fairness is best"
 
So nature is fair? Tell that to the gazelle, the impala ... to any of the animals who are routinely preyed upon. 
 
"I don't think" ... "I don't believe" ... and thus in your mind, there is no room for even attempting to understand the definitions being given to you, and likely why so many here have a difficult time taking you so seriously. 
Ana Ross Added Feb 7, 2019 - 3:11am
Thomas The definition of socialism  when the means of production are owned by those who do the work. Can  name a single industry that Hitler gave to be  by a workers collective? Or Mussolini for that matter? Mussolini who Hitler loved, said Fascism can also be called Corporatism. A corporation is about as far from a workers collective as it is possible to be. Nazism relied heavily on privately owned corporations for its suppport in  its effort. Socialism is ultimately a form of economics. Can you name any economic policy of Hitlers that collectivized any part of the German economy?I know that he privatized many industries and made collective action illegal but I know of no action he took to turn any part of his economy over to be managed by a collective of workers.  If you do Id like to hear about it, if not its hard to make a substantive case that there was anything socialist about nazism.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 7, 2019 - 2:23pm
Ana Ross
 
"Mussolini who Hitler loved, said Fascism can also be called Corporatism. A corporation is about as far from a workers collective as it is possible to be. Nazism relied heavily on privately owned corporations for its suppport in  its effort."
 
Correct!
 
Both communists and Fascists are authoritarian, or totalitarian in some degree, but the singular difference is that: communists want to own and operate business and manufacturing while the Fascists want the owners to run things but do the bidding of the party. 
 
This means that Fascism is much more efficient than communism as the proper people are in charge in the right places and can make the best decisions. The Russians tried to substitute committees  generating numbers and schedules for the laws of supply and demand and that failed. They destroyed half their food supply doing that, and more. 
 
And, recall that despite their differences they cooperated from 1921 in many ways up to the invasion of Poland and the breaking up of the Baltic states. Then Operation Barbarossa went down that cooperation evaporated. 
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 7, 2019 - 2:31pm
Ward Tipton
 
""I don't think" ... "I don't believe" ... and thus in your mind, there is no room for even attempting to understand the definitions being given to you, and likely why so many here have a difficult time taking you so seriously. "
 
The definitions given to me are frequently arbitrary or based on some political themes, which are frequently phony. I clearly understand what the left is advocating and reject most of that given history and basic reason. 
 
A poor idea has no underlying basis for implementation such as the advanced socialism I read about from AOC and Bernie and other extremists. There is, clearly, not enough money to support such programs and I understand their definitions, pleas, calls for massive taxes and confiscation of the wealth of the  top 1 % and more and reject them. There are many economists who agree with me or I agree with them if you choose to select  which one. 
 
I will do my analysis of such proposals and use my education, experience and reason to reject them when I find them intractable. 
Ward Tipton Added Feb 7, 2019 - 3:15pm
Ahhhh once again, the quotation marks are insufficient. It was a reply to Opher in his belief that life be fair like nature. However, even trying to explain to him the difference in rationale, his only response is "I don't think" or "I don't believe" ... refusing to even see the possibility that someone may not think the same way he does or define things the way he does in his mind ... or the mind of the Statist for that matter. 
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 7, 2019 - 5:06pm
Ward
 
"I don't think" or "I don't believe" ... refusing to even see the possibility that someone may not think the same way he does or define things the way he does in his mind ... or the mind of the Statist for that matter. "
 
Apparently, my studies and my reliance on numerous economists and such are insufficient to submit my conclusions on disbelief in such preposterous notions. 
 
Perhaps those who oppose or question me might stress to see my points as they differ much from accepted leftist dogma. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 7, 2019 - 5:45pm
Ana Ross, you present the definition of socialism written by the socialist themselves. <<Thomas The definition of socialism when the means of production are owned by those who do the work.>>
This is very simplistic. Communism is a branch of Socialism and Marx used the words interchangeably with the difference being the method of achieving a nation. Your definition presents socialism as an economic system, it is far more in application then an economic system as Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao Zedong that actually created nations know.
 
In practice this is a better definition, "Socialist state seek to substitute for decentralized planning and coordination through the market and other voluntary mechanisms (capitalism) a comprehensive system of state planning." Just read the communist manifesto planks.
 
One of those planks is a steep progressive income tax. "The progressive income tax increases political power over private wealth and moves the issues of wealth and fruits of production into the arena of government power and political discussion. It brings “class warfare” into public discussion, and promotes class envy, and when done with savvy demagoguery, distracts from the fact of property as a natural and civil right to the idea that it all belongs to the government to use for the “common good”, for the use of the collective.
 
In other words, it’s a Trojan horse, meant to both concentrate control of wealth into the hands of political kingmakers and money changers. It even brings the owners of wealth to centers of government power to beg for relief, and makes it a political issue pitting confiscators concerned about the poor (as if) against people who make too much money."
ref: https://trutherator.wordpress.com/why-did-karl-marx-want-an-unequal-income-tax-and-what-central-bank/
 
Why would you need an income tax if the simple definition was true? Today China realizes that it doesn't have to own all the means of production but it needs to be able to control the means of production. They allow enough free market capitalism to prevent the collapse of the economy. Every surviving socialist nation follows this approach. This is the approach that Fascism follows also. The method of governing is identical in Communism and Fascism.
 
Venezuela started out as a Democratic Socialist state but it is now a communist state and collapsing because it tried to control all the means of production.
 
Democratic government mixed with Socialist government is an oxymoron combination as Venezuela and every other fully achieved socialist nation shows.  Socialism requires a governing class and all other classes are lesser.   The standards for classes in actuality are different as are the laws or how the laws are applied.  
Logical Man Added Feb 7, 2019 - 7:45pm
rycK, take a look....
 
American investments in Nazi Germany at the time of Pearl Harbor. These amounted to an estimated total of $475 million. Standard Oil of New Jersey had $120 million invested there; General Motors had $35 million; ITT had $30 million; and Ford had $17.5 million. Though it would have been more patriotic to have allowed Nazi Germany to confiscate these companies for the duration—to nationalize them or to absorb them into Hermann Göring's industrial empire—it was clearly more practical to insure them protection from seizure by allowing them to remain in special holding companies, the money accumulating until war's end. It is interesting that whereas there is no evidence of any serious attempt by Roosevelt to impeach the guilty in the United States, there is evidence that Hitler strove to punish certain German Fraternity associates on the grounds of treason to the Nazi state. Indeed, in the case of ITT, perhaps the most flagrant of the corporations in its outright dealings with the enemy, Hitler and his postmaster general, the venerable Wilhelm Ohnesorge, strove to impound the German end of the business. But even they were powerless in such a situation: the Gestapo leader of counterintelligence, Walter Schellenberg, was a prominent director and shareholder of ITT by arrangement with New York—and even Hitler dared not cross the Gestapo.
 
Ford, GM, IBM, Coca Cola etc. etc.
 
Business is business, after all, even when the working class of two countries are killing each other, corporations carry on as if nothing is happening. In fact, armaments companies and banks love it.
 
You need to study a bit more world history.
Ana Ross Added Feb 8, 2019 - 2:08am
Thomas
This is exactly my point. The Soviet Union, China  etc were not socialist countries. They are examples state run capitalist countries.  Even the finance minister of Venezuela says that only a tiny fraction of its economy is socialist in any meaningful way.  Marx did not envision anything like the type of state like The Soviet Union or China. Your definition fits these countries better but these countries are communist  that reflect the ideas of Lenin more than Marx. For Marx the socialist state was a state where the economic levers were in the hands of the worker.He envisioned a revolution in Great Britain  not Russia.
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2019 - 7:21am
Thomas - you still don't get it. You are comparing one tyranny with another. They might look the same but they started as very different things.
Fascism - Nazi - an extreme right-wing ideology.
Communism - an extreme left-wing ideology.
Both taken over by totalitarian authoritarian regimes. Both became tyrannical. 
You should read Mein Kampf and Mao's Little Red Book.
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2019 - 7:24am
Ana - you are right. There is some Orwellian double-think going on here. McCarthy really did a job. Anything socialist is immediately knee-jerked into communism synonymous with tyranny and fascism.
Oh my!!
Ward Tipton Added Feb 8, 2019 - 7:38am
"you still don't get it. You are comparing one tyranny with another. They might look the same but they started as very different things.
Fascism - Nazi - an extreme right-wing ideology.
Communism - an extreme left-wing ideology.
Both taken over by totalitarian authoritarian regimes. Both became tyrannical. 
You should read Mein Kampf and Mao's Little Red Book."
 
You should read what I wrote again to understand what the other people mean as well. I understand your view ... I do not agree with it, but I make the effort to understand it. Would definitely benefit you to make the same effort for others. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 8, 2019 - 8:13am
Let me make it really simple.  I could care less about the ideological description of socialism and fascism because they have been implemented so I can look at what became real.  This Opher and Ward is why I am saying they are the same.
 
Socialism ideology when attempted to put in practice.  Government ownership of the means of production has resulted in a failed economic system: USSR and Venezuela governments collapses and other are hanging on by a thread with wide spread poverty in every class but the governing.
 
Socialism nations that have succeeded have all followed the fascist economic system: China and Vietnam.   The other similarity is the nature of the government that is totalitarian class society with barriers between classes and different actual applied laws for each class.  The ideology of distribution of wealth equally applies only within a class not between classes.  For lower classes their is equal distribution of misery, Venezuela.
 
Fabian Socialism have the same end result but instead of following the revolution approach of Communism use the tactic of slowly altering a 'Democratic elected government into a single party government' like South Africa.   This nation in following the Fascism economic approach.  Another possible example that was following the Fabian Socialist path is Scandinavian nations (that call themselves as welfare state, not socialist states because of stopping in the middle of the process.)  
Ana Ross Added Feb 9, 2019 - 4:30am
Thomas 
You either  dont know or have forgotten that there has never been a socialist or communist state has been allowed to succeed or fail on its own terms without interference either militarily economically or both by the US. The corpses thus created could populate a fair sized nation. If you look at the behavior of the United States after Pearl Harbor where we locked every American of Japanese ancestry in prison camps for the duration or our behavior after 9/11when we detained thousands of Americans of middle eastern descent and held them incommunicado  you get the idea of the results of fear on the leaders of a country.  Now imagine another 9/11 every month or so and you have a culture that looks pretty much like Cuba. I mention this because this was exactly what Cuba faced from America but worse for any number of reasons.
 
The truth is we dont know whether a socialist government can work for the good of the people because the US has never let a country try. The rason for that can only be that if it were successful it would set a bad example for the rest of the third world.  The fact is that communist countries like Viet Nam and China despite the unrelenting assault by the US have managed to somehow raise the standard of living to great extent for their population.It is little known that until the 1970s North Korea was more successful in providing a high standard of living than South Korea. It was not until South Koreans stood up and shook off the military dictatorship imposed on them by the US that South Korea began to overtake North Korea. 
 
There have been 41times since 1900 when the US successfully overthrew governments in Latin America and replaced them with governments we wanted them to have and still there is not a country from Latin America where poverty and violence are not endemic. Then we point and say socialism cant work.
Its like I come and stomp on your garden and then tell you there is something wrong with the soil that wont let plants grow.  Most of the rest of the world understands this but we in this country have no historical memory or curiosity. The media tells us what are the ranges of discourse we can have and we are careful not to stray too far.
 
Im not a 9/11 Truther in any way but the idea that America would kill 3000 civilians and cart away the evidence and lie about having nothing  to do with it is extremely possible and in fact its hard to point to a year when this hasnt happened just to someone else.
Ana Ross Added Feb 9, 2019 - 4:40am
I am very impressed by the level of discourse that goes on here. It is very nice to be able to talk about ideas without name calling and whatever else often goes on. Also I am pretty impressed with those on the right being able to marshal facts to support their beliefs which is rarer on both sides today.  So thank you all.
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 9, 2019 - 12:48pm
Ana Ross
 
"There have been 41 times since 1900 when the US successfully overthrew governments in Latin America and replaced them with governments we wanted them to have and still there is not a country from Latin America where poverty and violence are not endemic. Then we point and say socialism cant work."
 
Nice post. 
 
All true and the salient fact that none of them have turned out to be self-sustaining nations seems to point not to the economic system but to the culture or ideological training of the indigenous populations of these cases. 
 
Venezuela had the best chance of surviving, intact, as a modern capitalist state with their vast oil reserves. The far left spent those proceeds and left the population destitute while appointing some 2000 generals, a high number for any army. Abject failure is too generous an accusation for Maduro and Chavez for what they have done, and lets dump the phony democracy prattle in these countries in much of Central and South America. Few  of those elections are legitimate.
 
The facts tend to show that the US methods and theories  of regime change are not working in most places where it was forcibly introduced. Experiments in the Middle East show that for those states the "stability" can only come from a strong man in charge, a view that goes back some 5000 years. Quadaffy, Hussein, Mubarak and others held down the violence in several ways unacceptable to the US. Carter and his human rights politics did nothing to date in that region. 
 
We need to stop this folly and let matters go according to the masses and their leaders in those countries. We have changed essentially nothing in the Middle East.
 
Pull out the foreign aid, get our troops out of there and impose strong tariffs on some and wait and see what happens. We have no chance in changing Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Gaza, Somalia, Turkey, Syria and Lebanon. History shows the truth of that statement. 
 
 
opher goodwin Added Feb 12, 2019 - 1:12pm
rycK - the US won't pull out of the ME because of its strategic importance and the oil. It needs chaos in order to stop the nations there using oil money to become a threat - divide and rule.
The wars have created much wealth for the US and the puppets they put in power let in US business. Plenty money to be made. 
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Feb 13, 2019 - 1:29pm
opher goodwin
 
"rycK - the US won't pull out of the ME because of its strategic importance and the oil. It needs"
 
Most ME oil goes to EU and that area. 
 
Hey, catch up to the news: USA is #1  exporter of  oil and gas .
 
Those miserable states in the ME are of minor strategic importance as they are social latrines with dictators everywhere, most stooges for Iran as in Iraq and Lebanon. 
 
"The wars have created much wealth for the US"
 
What? How much did we spend on wars there? 
 
Much confusion as how costs matter but they range from about $3T to about $8T:--https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/may/01/donald-trump/donald-trump-and-7-trillion-dollar-cost-war/
 
How much did we get from our wars??  An accounting.?