Beware! You may be dead!

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Beware! You may be dead!

If you wake up with one of the following symptoms you may well be dead!

  • You heart has stopped beating
  • You are not breathing
  • Your body is stiff
  • You are as cold as marble
  • You cannot move
  • Your brain is no longer functioning

If you have one or more of these symptoms you may well be dead!

 

What to do

Nothing.

 

You have no need to do anything ever again. Other people will do everything necessary.

 

Benefits

There are a number of benefits from this condition:

  • You will not have to worry about anything ever again
  • there will be no more pain and fears
  • You will not have to do anything anymore
  • All the problems in the world will not exist
  • What is going to happen to you will no longer matter
  • As far as you are concerned, you and the whole universe has ceased to exist
  • You will not have to put up with all the hatred, intolerance, cruelty, stupidity, lying, cheating, violence, destruction, religious fanaticism, environmental madness and thoughtlessness.
  • You can forget about the list of things to do

 

Downside

  • You will no longer be able to experience all the wonders of the universe
  • You will no longer have the love of your friends and family
  • You will never see a sunrise or sunset
  • You will never have a cuddle
  • You won’t be able to have a laugh
  • You will never gaze into a sky full of stars or see the moon glide through the clouds
  • You will never read a great book
  • You will never meet new, interesting people
  • You will never share a great tale or make new friends
  • You will never love your family
  • You will never walk along a beautiful stretch of sand and splash in the sea
  • You will never see colour
  • You will never write a poem
  • You will never stand on the edge of a cliff and gaze out at the wonderful scenery
  • You will never hear music
  • You will not dance
  • You will not fall in love
  • You will not eat a delicious meal
  • You will not watch a great film
  • You will not put the world to rights
  • You will not stand up for a better world
  • You will not fight injustice
  • You will not hold hands
  • You will not see all the birds and animals
  • You will not see a tree
  • You will not look up into a blue sky, feel the warmth of the sun on your face and a cool breeze
  • You will not have hope, anticipation, excitement or satisfaction
  • You will not feel the glow of having achieved something
  • You will not create
  • You will not drink a great coffee while a squirrel climbs a branch in front of you
  • A gorilla will not connect with you
  • You will not climb a mountain and look at the world laid out before you
  • You will not fly to a wondrous place
  • You will not smell a flower
  • You will not just sit around with people
  • You will not go off to see the sights
  • You will not plan and dream
  • You will not be with the ones you love
  • You will not find the unexpected
  • You will not change anything
  • You will never fly a plane, drive a car or learn a skill
  • You will not travel
  • You will not eat an ice-cream
  • You will not fry calamari in garlic butter and sea-salt
  • You will not smell fresh baked bread or cut grass
  • You will not sip a mellow shiraz
  • You will not discover a new writer
  • You will not stand in front of a Magritte and smile
  • You will not feel warm
  • You will not hear Buddy Holly, Roy Harper, Jimi Hendrix, Bob Dylan, Nick Harper or Captain Beefheart and a host of others
  • You will not think nice thoughts
  • You will no go to the theatre
  • You will not share a meal
  • You will not watch England win the world cup
  • You will not see Hull top the premier league
  • You will not amble through a forest
  • You will not share a picnic
  • You will not sit in a meadow and watch the butterflies and bees dance with flowers
  • You will not hear the birds sing in the morning
  • You will not make love in front of a log fire
  • You will not catch sight of a deer standing under the trees
  • You will not visit Katmandu
  • Nobody will paint you a picture, give you a card, a hug, a kiss or a smile
  • You will not discover something fascinating
  • You will not think great thoughts
  • You will not dream wonderful dreams
  • You will not grill cheese on toast
  • You will not have a cup of tea
  • You will not do something that you thought you couldn’t do
  • You will not make something look better
  • You will not help someone and feel good
  • You will not buy something you love
  • You will not cherish something special
  • You will not get the satisfaction of a job well done
  • You will not sit in your garden
  • You will never kayak
  • You will not debate, argue and fight for what you believe
  • You will not hike through the Himalayas
  • You will not eat chocolate
  • You will not take a photograph of a pyramid
  • You will not solve a crossword
  • You will not sit with someone
  • You will not breathe fresh air
  • You will never hear that interesting programme on the radio
  • You will not laugh at a joke
  • You will not save a bee, a tree or a chimpanzee
  • You will not stare at the northern lights
  • You will not fight for justice
  • Rocks will not glow
  • Friends will not ring
  • Lovers will not love
  • Worlds will not exist

 

So beware if you wake up dead – you might not have packed in all that you could into your brief time here.

Comments

opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 10:35am
Life's for living! Make the most of it!
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 6, 2019 - 10:58am
So live in the "NOW" the eternal state of being.
 
As for the afterlife, I don't know. I may be able to enjoy a good deal of your list but I will have to die first to find out.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 6, 2019 - 11:00am
No living person can tell what a life after death experiences. that is unknown territory to you.
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 11:04am
Michael - who's talking about any after-death experiences? Not me.
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 11:06am
Michael - I agree - live in the now and live life to the utmost! Pack it all in you're a long time dead!
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 6, 2019 - 11:14am
Opher
You are going to address people who believe in God and an afterlife. That is where your advice falls apart. 
 
The concept of "Now" aka Mindfulness works well for both theists and atheists but not the advice of an afterlife.
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 11:28am
Cheers Michael. Yes the religious might live for some belief in an afterlife. I have no belief in an afterlife. My contention is that evolution has provided us with a short interlude of consciousness and we should make the very most of it.
As far as I'm concerned I came from nothing and I will go back there. When I die the universe ceases to exist. Death is final. So make the most of life. It's short but you can pack a lot in.
Bill H. Added Feb 6, 2019 - 11:31am
 
At least one can be reassured that after they die, they will actually contribute something positive to the Earth as organic material.
How satisfying!!
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 11:36am
Lol Bill. We grow a new body every three months! (All the cells in our bodies are renewed every three months apart from nervous tissue).
We all have molecules that once were in everybody who ever lived - Buddha, Jesus, Hitler and Pol Pot. Great isn't it?
Our bodies will go on to give other creatures life. I like that.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 6, 2019 - 11:45am
Opher:
 When I die the universe ceases to exist. 
You believe that. Afterlife is a belief for you and me. You nor I have any evidence what life after death is until we die and the dead do not talk to the living. 
We grow a new body every three months! (All the cells in our bodies are renewed every three months apart from nervous tissue).
You speak of the passage of time (every 3 months). that is why the NOW is eternal because no matter how much time goes by you are ever present in the NOW. -which becomes the past by every second. 
the only thing that never changes is the present. 
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 6, 2019 - 11:46am
Opher,
"Beware! You may be dead!"
 
Sorry, that is not something I need to worry about.
 
In fact, if I discover that i am dead, I will probably be happy that I am that way instead of lying in a sickbed incontinent with astasis.
Life has been good. I enjoyed it and have known for some time that it has an end. Im good with that. Im just not so good with some exit patterns.
 
On the other hand, if your message is to live while you are alive, Im all aboard with that.
 
When I see families and people squabbling over who said what and such, I find it remarkable how few realize how much they are missing.
 
Being right is highly overrated. Having real human experiences is not.
 
Indeed there is  alot to enjoy in life. Attaining it is often as easy as being receptive to it.
 
Thanks for your thoughts,
Mustafa
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 11:57am
Michael - conjecture on an afterlife is pointless. There is no evidence for any and it all seems like very human fantasising and fear of death to me. I'll stick with my belief that it is not real. If it is what a surprise!
Now is hard to achieve but a good thing to try for. I like it.
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 11:58am
Cheers Mustafa - having experiences is life for me! Glad you picked up on the point of the piece. Fill it with positivity.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 6, 2019 - 11:59am
I fully agree, Mustapha. 
 
Enjoy life, be centered be in the present be aware of the joy of life 
Death is inevitable so why worry about it. 
but
If one becomes aware that one is dead that proves there is an afterlife.
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 12:22pm
I'm fully with you Michael. Make the best of it. Appreciate every moment. Breathe in the beauty.
Gerrilea Added Feb 6, 2019 - 12:50pm
Opher G--- How does one "wake up" dead?
 
Inquiring minds are puzzled.
 
:)
 
Michael B B ---  as for this:
 
You nor I have any evidence what life after death is until we die and the dead do not talk to the living. 
 
I would beg to differ.  On March 17th, 1983 I was dead for 8 minutes. 
 
Guess what?  There was no light, no tunnel, nothing.  Opher is pretty accurate in his descriptions of what "awaits" us.  Nothingness.
 
What we do in the here and now, is all we have.
 
 
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 6, 2019 - 12:53pm
Not to take away from mutually agreeing but unless you fully understand the laws that govern moral and ethical behavior which sprang from religion.  materialist happiness often leads to corruption, hedonism, and apathy. Think Caligula
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 6, 2019 - 12:53pm
Opher, excellent post. Since you contemplate such things let me ask you a question.
 
Why do you think so many people get angry when they hear an opinion that they do not like?
 
When they do, I maintain they have just lost what we are talking about. I would like to understand why so many think the price is worth it.
 
Michael Bagala, I would very much like to hear your opinion on this also.
 
Mustafa
 
Bill H. Added Feb 6, 2019 - 1:30pm
 
I do agree with you Oph, in that I believe we will always be on this planet as a living entity in various life forms over time.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 6, 2019 - 1:31pm
Opher
To be "dead" should include the corruption and deterioration of your body, including brains and heart to the cellular level where "coming back to life" is impossible. 
I make that distinction because only one man resurrected after his body lay "dead" long enough for deterioration to take place. 
Since you were not dead, you never crossed to the afterlife and may just have experienced the "emptiness" of transition
Ancient Greeks believed the soul went to the underworld in boat over the river Styx. The river represents that emptiness between 2 worlds. You never reached Hades
and if you reached Hades and like the average block got to live in Elysian fields the soul continues to experience the same sensations as when it had a body. 
but if you were bad then you were plunged into Tatarus 
Mustafa 
I believe hearing something contrary to a strongly held belief is to question that person's beliefs. You are placing doubt in a place where there should be no doubt. Anger is the result for your trangression
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 2:15pm
Gerri - just a literary bit of silliness. Nobody wakes up dead.
I'm intrigued with your tale - being dead for 8 minutes. What happened?
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 2:20pm
Mustafa - I think that if you question various tenets on which people build their lives, their faith, they feel threatened and respond with anger.
That happens a lot of times on WB.
I question peoples' faith - they respond with anger.
they have committed so much of their lives to believing in their beliefs. To have them challenged is frightening. They might have wasted their life.
Americans have been brainwashed with this mantra of God, Nation, Cash, Capitalism, Guns and complete Freedom.
It's a myth. Challenge it and they respond with anger. Socialism is communism is totalitarianism. It's nuts.
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 2:22pm
Bill - I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Will we always be here? I doubt it. We will either kill ourselves or be killed by some calamity. We'll be a layer in the rocks like everything else. The only questions are how long and how much damage will we do.
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 2:24pm
Michael - I believe that once you die your body breaks down and the nerve network that creates your consciousness is no more. Nothing goes on.
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 2:26pm
Michael - I don't think anybody came back from death. The Jesus resurrection is a myth with no substance.
The Greek myths were myths.
Men fear death. They make up stories to make them feel better. The idea of no longer existing is hard to come to terms with.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 6, 2019 - 2:46pm
Opher:
Science is proving you wrong. Even in its infancy, the field of genetics can bring an identical copy of you back. Memory can be fed back. 
We are also advancing in Artificial intelligence which requires thinking, recollection, memory, recognition, and a whole field of memory-related science.
 
we are advancing on Robotics and bioengineering fields that will literally bring back to life what was gone. This simple science. That you can understand but what you cannot understand are aspects of life beyond the scope of present-day Science. Here is the area of myth, faith, intuition, instinct; an area of fuzzy thought (which is integral for artificial intelligence) 
 
Life after death takes the kind of mind that makes sense of metaphysics or quantum physics. 
 
Remember in an earlier discussion trying to understand how matter is created out of atoms which do not have matter. It does not make sense but there you have it.
Bill H. Added Feb 6, 2019 - 3:24pm
I'm saying that I believe there is a fixed amount of organic matter on Earth, so we essentially could cycle thru being part of many types of life over the eons.
Leroy Added Feb 6, 2019 - 5:35pm
As to the advantages, I agree with Voltaire:
 
“Animals have a great advantage over human beings: they never hear the clock strike, however intelligent they may be: they die without having any notion of death: they have no theologians to instruct them on the Four Ends of animals: their last moments are not disturbed by unwelcome and often objectionable ceremonies: it costs them nothing to be buried: no one goes to law over their wills: but in one respect we are greatly their superior — they only know the ties of habit, and we know friendship.”
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 7:31pm
Lol Michael - I think you are wrong there. It would be easy to clone me. Soon it will be easy to create my DNA from scratch. But that person, while resembling me in many ways, will not be me. We are a product of our genetics and our environment. We would be like identical twins - two separate individuals. We are a product of our experience and every person's experience is different. You cannot recreate the zeitgeist of an era or an exact environment.
Robots and A/I is well short of achieving human experiences. Our brains exceed all present possibilities. Maybe one day. But even then you cannot recreate memories or experiences. My Mum's dead. Nobody will ever experience what it was like to be cuddled by her and couldn't - a substitute would not be the same.
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 7:33pm
Bill - yes we are all interacting with the biome. Our molecules are in everything. But our consciousness isn't, is it?
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 7:35pm
Leroy - I'm not sure I agree with Voltaire. Go down the cattle market and watch the pigs and cows being fed in to the slaughter house. I think they have a clear understanding.
As for wild animals - they are on the look-out every instant. They know death lurks.
I think you underestimate them.
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 7:37pm
Mogg - I don't think you properly finished your sentence. What were you saying? My post was too verbose? Too lengthy? Extravagant in detail? And how is this ironic?
opher goodwin Added Feb 6, 2019 - 8:09pm
Mogg - your comment does not make sense. It isn't a definition at all. 
My posts are no unfair tax on you. You don't have to pay any attention to them, open them or read them. You choose to do that. I should charge you for the education and entertainment value.
If you don't like don't read, don't comment. If you do then engage and discuss intelligently.
If anything your comments - usually griping and negative on most peoples posts - are the unfair tax. We have no choice but to read them if you put them on our threads.
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 6, 2019 - 8:27pm
Opher, I think this living life thing, especially the positivity thing,
is a little rough on the Moggins.
 
Mustafa
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 6, 2019 - 8:47pm
Michael Bagala,
re
"I believe hearing something contrary to a strongly held belief is to question that person's beliefs. You are placing doubt in a place where there should be no doubt. Anger is the result for your trangression"
 
Thank you, that makes perfect sense.
But what about when these beliefs are moderate?
 
Mustafa
 
 
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 6, 2019 - 8:54pm
Leroy
Animals have a great advantage over human beings: they never hear the clock strike, however intelligent they may be: they die without having any notion of death: they have no theologians to instruct them on the Four Ends of animals: their last moments are not disturbed by unwelcome and often objectionable ceremonies: it costs them nothing to be buried: no one goes to law over their wills: but in one respect we are greatly their superior — they only know the ties of habit, and we know friendship.”
 
"they die without having any notion of death:" -
 
They do know death. Ever seen animals defend and flee and do whatever they can to prevent being killed? Ever see elephants visit an elephant graveyard?
 
"they never hear the clock strike"
 
They know time better than we do. some know the time to the minute or season. some species are locked into time as in mating season. 
 
"their last moments are not disturbed by unwelcome and often objectionable ceremonies: "
 
I have seen mother cats and dogs carry their babies and mourn their passing. their cries are heart-rendingly painful. I have seen animals weep with the loss of a loved one including humans. 
 
 they only know the ties of habit, and we know friendship.”
 
The bonds of friendship have never burned so true with animals. How could Voltaire be so stupid?
 
Opher
You need to place your mind in the future of these fields of science. your comment only reflects the current level of achievement.
Katharine Otto Added Feb 6, 2019 - 9:03pm
Opher,
If it turns out you are wrong, and you are conscious after death, how would you let the living know?  I've been pondering the sad fate of ghosts, when people don't believe in them.  I had a ghost dream the other night.  They weren't frightening, just annoying, as though they enjoy toying with me.
 
We are limited by our physical senses.  Science has yet to prove the mind exists, or that life exists, so science doesn't know everything yet.
Leroy Added Feb 6, 2019 - 9:18pm
Michael, I suggest you make your argument with Voltaire, should you ever meet.
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 6, 2019 - 9:22pm
Katharine,
 
" I've been pondering the sad fate of ghosts, when people don't believe in them"
 
they disappear
 
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2019 - 4:10am
Mustafa - can't expect miracles I suppose. Mogg is Mogg. Positivity is a personality trait.
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2019 - 4:18am
Michael/Mustafa - "I believe hearing something contrary to a strongly held belief is to question that person's beliefs. You are placing doubt in a place where there should be no doubt. Anger is the result for your trangression"
Yes I agree with that. We are also questioning the investment they have made into those beliefs. By challenging those beliefs you are exposing gullibility and even stupidity. That elicits a violent push-back. You are challenging the central philosophies on which they have founded their existence.
Even moderate challenges threaten to bring down the whole model. If part of it is questionable then all of it is.
To suggest there might not be a god to a believer is to question the whole of the basis of their lives. They have invested countless hours worshipping, studying and basing the way they live on the teachings. If it is not true they have wasted their lives. No wonder they get angry. It's the same, to a lesser degree, with other challenges.
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2019 - 4:22am
Michael - I too have seen many animals mourn their dead offspring or friends. Elephants, whales, chimps and many other apes have great intelligence and awareness. I think there is a tendency by many humans to relegate animals down into some unaware objects. Hence they can be treated cruelly without a thought. But they do have awareness and feelings.
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2019 - 4:27am
Katharine - my grandfather was a spiritualist medium who communicated with the dead.
If we are conscious after death I don't think we'd be in this plane of existence. We wouldn't be here on this planet. We could be discorporate? Who knows? But I don't think we would be able to communicate.
I, personally, do not for one minute believe that we will exist. But nobody will know until we get there and humans love to speculate.
You are right about science. We are right at the beginning. Exciting times. We certainly don't know everything. The creation of the universe and life, the nature of the mind and study of infinity and space are all amazing and not yet understood. Those are all things that fascinate me.
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2019 - 4:29am
Katharine - evolution, by chance, has evolved senses that are sensitive to a limited section of the electro-magnetic spectrum. What if we saw the world in radio waves, magnetic waves or gamma or X-rays?
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2019 - 4:31am
Michael - who knows what wonders science will unfurl in the next five hundred years? We're only starting out. One field I think will be discovered is that there is a mental connection between creatures - the zeitgeist is real.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 7, 2019 - 9:31am
Opher
To suggest there might not be a god to a believer is to question the whole of the basis of their lives.
True
Elephants, whales, chimps and many other apes have great intelligence and awareness. I think there is a tendency by many humans to relegate animals down into some unaware objects. Hence they can be treated cruelly without a thought. But they do have awareness and feelings.
True
We are right at the beginning. Exciting times. We certainly don't know everything. The creation of the universe and life, the nature of the mind and study of infinity and space are all amazing and not yet understood. Those are all things that fascinate me.
True
who knows what wonders science will unfurl in the next five hundred years? We're only starting out. One field I think will be discovered is that there is a mental connection between creatures - the zeitgeist is real
True
Opher you are a well of wisdom today.
Gerrilea Added Feb 7, 2019 - 11:23am
Michael B B -- You cannot redefine death to suit your zealotry.  From what I was told.  I died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital, for 8 minutes.  No brain activity, nothing.  I was hypodermic ( I jumped off the bridge and fell into a snow bank)  I freaking missed the pavement. 
 
As the nurses and the doctors told me, they put a thermal blanket around me and kept trying to get my heart to start again.  They succeeded, 8 minutes later. "I was lucky", they said. 
 
Opher G--- There was nothing. I didn't know I was dead. I didn't wake up until 3 days later, from the coma.
 
When I tried to remember those events in the ambulance, there was nothing. I don't remember any of it. I equate it to a light being on or off, nothing more or less.
 
So sad, they lied about "life after death" too!
 
It took me 5+ yrs later to find God, yes "the big cheese" and make a path that has brought me both sorrow and pain but what a wonderful ride it's been.
 
The pure beauty and awesomeness of nature. The lives others species experience.  What are those damn birds talking about around dinner time each day when they gather in flocks in the bushes? 
 
"Hey, George, I got some great leads on fresh worms over in Mrs. Jones flower garden. I spent most of the day there! You should take the Misses there tomorrow."
 
"Betty did you see Bob's feathers this afternoon? He's working them!"
 
I'll say this, I'm grateful I was given this moment to live, wonder and love.
 
 
 
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2019 - 1:24pm
Michael - thank you.
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2019 - 1:28pm
Gerri - That's quite a tale. Why did you jump off the bridge?
That is what I believe too - we died and the shutters go down. The end.
But how come you went back to believing in god?
I'll say this, I'm grateful I was given this moment to live, wonder and love.
Yes - that's how life should be!
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2019 - 1:29pm
Gerri - BTW - most bird song is aggression - territorial, to drive off rivals and to attract a mate.
Gerrilea Added Feb 7, 2019 - 1:56pm
Opher G--- I spoke on that almost a year ago, here.
 
There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
 
I call it "tuning in".  If, indeed, we are one, down to the atomic level, we should be able to share that unity.  Your "zeitgeist", I believe you would call it.
 
We are a reflection of "the alpha and omega" and part of Him.
 
As for the birds, you have not been around my house at 5pm or so.  They aren't fighting or challenging each other or mating.  They are talking. It happens almost everyday around the same time.  Sometimes 20 or 30 of them and up to 100 all gather and talk and talk and talk.
 
I did see the "mating ritual" of a male house sparrow/finch just the other day, boy he was dancing and showing off his feathers and "moves" (up and down, back and forth and he even spun around) and the female, just looked at him, like "that's all you got hon?!"
 
:)
 
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2019 - 2:06pm
Cheers Gerri - I know they appear to be talking but it's all about pecking order and status, territory and mates.
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2019 - 2:12pm
Gerri - very interesting tale. 
I think that all religions were created by man for power and wealth.
Now spirituality - that's something else. I see it in a sunset, feel it in a tree and a rock and sense it in living plants and creatures.
We emanate a zeitgeist.
God? A human construct. A universal vibration? Possibly.
Gerrilea Added Feb 7, 2019 - 2:24pm
Opher G--- Good gracious, I just went to the link, I never actually discussed my first attempt on 3-17-84.
 
In a nutshell, I was a very religious person, raised Irish Catholic.  As transgendered, (we didn't have that term for it when I was young), I was an abomination before God.
 
I used to pray to God, "make me like everyone else", "take these feelings from me".  I truly lived a tortured existence.  My faith said one thing, I felt something else.
 
I went to college and that's when it happened. I fell in love with someone it was NEVER supposed to.  That love/our love was evil.  Through those events I had a college advisor, Father Courneen.  We talked about so many things, but that secret.  He told me to take his class, "Introduction to the Old Testament". 
 
My faith was crushed, I was lost, angry and I loved someone I must never love.  I wanted it to end, all of it. God never took my feelings from me, He allowed me to be tortured and I rejected it all.
 
He didn't exist, that's why my prayers were never answered. After all the years of loving devotion, NOTHING!
 
There was no god, there was nothing but lies and illusions, pain and suffering. What's the point if you're gonna become a worm-feast anyways.
 
I jumped off a bridge.  I succeeded for exactly 8 damn minutes, the bastards brought me back to life.  No one knew what I had done, it was beyond their comprehension. I never told a soul I jumped.  Family, doctors and friends thought I was given a "Mickey" at a college bar that night and just "passed out", falling off the bridge.
 
My secret was safe.
 
My first thoughts, when I woke up 3 days later were, "Damn the bridge wasn't high enough!"
 
The rest of the story is here.
 
 
Gerrilea Added Feb 7, 2019 - 2:32pm
Opher G--- If you define "zeitgeist" as a universal vibration, I'm on the same page, mostly.  Every atom that creates what we are, all are moving and vibrating, endlessly.
 
Spirituality moves beyond the known and measurable.  We have limited physical "senses" but we can imagine and feel so much more that we cannot describe or touch or see.  Many call that God.
 
That would be my definition.  "Knowing without seeing" and hence, my "tuning in" experiences.
 
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 7, 2019 - 6:22pm
Gerrilea:
You cannot redefine death to suit your zealotry.  From what I was told.  I died in the ambulance on the way to the hospital, for 8 minutes.  No brain activity, nothing.  I was hypodermic ( I jumped off the bridge and fell into a snow bank)  I freaking missed the pavement.
Obviously what has considered "death has several meanings. Mine is as valid. In true death, no medical procedure can bring back to life. They are right in the sense that your heart stopped but was within present tech to bring you back. 
 
You are a Transgender that means you have identity problems from the get-go. I now understand much more about you
Gerrilea Added Feb 7, 2019 - 6:46pm
Michael B B --- Hundreds of thousands of people have been "brought back" from clinical death.  Books have been written on their hallucinations they "experienced" as their brains shutdown.
 
An article here explored "the God-Helmet" and how those hallucinations can be induced.
 
As for your swipe against my "issues", typical of the behaviors you've presented here, hateful, vile, anti-Semitic and vulgar.
 
You look but you cannot see.
 
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 7, 2019 - 7:31pm
Gerrilea:
"Hundreds of thousands of people have been "brought back" from clinical death.  Books have been written on their hallucinations they "experienced" as their brains shut down".
With as many versions of the afterlife. Many fully claim to have seen or experienced an afterlife. That prevails. I remember a couple of Simpson episodes of an afterlife when a near-death experience takes place. 
Again.
I am not denying yours but saying now that there are more versions to what constitutes death. In the case of Christ, his body remained dead from Friday to Sunday when both body and soul ascended.  The resurrection and maybe that of Nazareth are the ones I know of life after a true death.
as I said
when the cells start deteriorating, especially the red blood cells that live on oxygen or the brain that also needs oxygen dies due to the lack of it then I believe the person is dead.
It comes from the need to believe a loved one is alive than dead.
I am not taking any swipe at your gender identity issues. It is your life, not mine.  but I understand you better.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 7, 2019 - 7:33pm
Oops Lazarus  not Nazareth
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2019 - 7:43pm
Gerri - thanks for sharing that. It must have all been incredibly traumatic. I hope you are over it now and in a much better place.
opher goodwin Added Feb 7, 2019 - 7:45pm
Gerri - I keep an open-mind on spirituality. There is much that science doesn't yet even know it doesn't know. But religion is another matter - stultifying, guilt-inducing, brainwashing, power structures created by men.
Gerrilea Added Feb 7, 2019 - 8:00pm
Opher G--- My thoughts exactly:
 
"religion is another matter - stultifying, guilt-inducing, brainwashing, power structures created by men."
 
Thank you for the earnest concern.
 
I have found that life is what we decide it should be.  Whether "good or bad" is up to us.  I gave myself the freedom to be happy.  That changed everything.
 
Katharine Otto Added Feb 7, 2019 - 10:14pm
Opher,
Now, what do you know about what birds discuss?  I'm not personally acquainted with many birds, but I'm enchanted with the range of vocalizations my chickens make.  Unlike humans, they communicate about much more than aggression and sex.  They will comment on the wind or on birds flying overhead.  There are warning sounds when they sense danger.  They chirrup and make chipping noises when they find something good to eat.  They crow good morning or when they are angry.  They moan and grunt when rolling around in their dirt baths.  They squawk when they want to get outside.  And on and on.  
 
Don't anthropomorphize animals and expect to be taken seriously.  
Katharine Otto Added Feb 7, 2019 - 10:18pm
Gerrilea,
Thanks for sharing your story.  You don't say much more than you say, but it's loaded with significance.
 
I would like to suggest that eight minutes is not long enough to determine whether there is consciousness after death, and from what you say, you didn't want to be conscious.  I'll still hold with my belief that consciousness survives death, even if it falls asleep awhile.
 
I guess your birds are much smarter and have more to say than Opher's birds.
Gerrilea Added Feb 8, 2019 - 12:07am
Katharine O--- What an interesting word, anthropomorphize, our creative description to place humanity above all else.  We love to separate everyone and everything into their own nice neat little boxes, label them and then say "We're better than that!"
 
Life on this planet, no matter what it is, uses one design that builds it structure and to propagate, the double helix of DNA. 
 
If I recall my studies correctly, there is a mere 40% difference in said DNA from us to a banana. birds. and even fruit flies.
 
Go figure, we are more alike than different. So why wouldn't they act, react, and live similarly as we do?  Okay, I haven't figured out the language of a banana or a fig tree, but...
 
:)
 
Oh, I have find out so much more since those 8 minutes of nothingness.  There is indeed, a God and life (and death) hold endless possibilities and variations.
 
Matter can neither be created or destroyed.  The universe is electric and life is a reflection of it all.
 
Katharine Otto Added Feb 8, 2019 - 12:38am
Gerrilea,
And some fungi have more genes than human beings.  What could they tell us, if only we could learn their language?  Do fungi talk about sex and aggression?  Maybe I should ask Opher.  Opher?
Gerrilea Added Feb 8, 2019 - 1:16am
Katharine O--- ROFL, maybe we should ask. But I like my "theories", so much more life in them. 
 
Don't tell anyone I shared this (or even said it) but I do think evolution is by necessity and choice. Yes, conscience choice. 
 
I come back to the Venus flytrap.  How did it know there was "food/energy" when something touched it?  And then create a structure to catch it and digest it? There has to be an awareness (of some type) beyond our simple "grade school" understandings.  Different vibrations therefore, "food", "danger"....????
 
In lower forms, like fungi and amoebas, that have up to 200 more pair of genes, I think that's the soup mix.  Which gene expression will win out and reflect a form that continues its existence in a specific environment. 
 
But where did it all come from?  A rock?
 
Pshaw!
 
Stone-Eater Added Feb 8, 2019 - 2:42am
Nice one Oph.
 
Pretty busy for the moment....;)
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2019 - 6:04am
Katharine/Gerri - Lol - I'm not sure I'm being anthropomorphic. Just pointing out the behaviour of songbirds. A lot of that beautiful song is territory and sex. I don't think that makes them human? But you are right - many birds do make all manner of other calls - warning (and different ones for different threats sometimes) and social.
I think fungi communicate in many ways. Chemistry, pheromones and direct contact. Who knows what communications they have?
I recently did a post on plant consciousness. Fungi aren't plants but I reckon all things are sentient.
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2019 - 6:07am
Gerri - a pool of rich soup of amino acids, sugars and organic molecules created by two billion years of UV, X-ray, Gamma, electricity, and heat and an atmosphere of hydrogen, methane and ammonia - not just rocks.
opher goodwin Added Feb 8, 2019 - 6:07am
Cheers Stone. Don't work too hard!
Dino Manalis Added Feb 8, 2019 - 8:49am
 Beware, because you may die sooner than you think!
Stone-Eater Added Feb 8, 2019 - 9:04am
;:)))
Steel Breeze Added Feb 8, 2019 - 10:28am
i dont really care what happens after death.......as long as its not having to do this all over again.....
Gerrilea Added Feb 8, 2019 - 11:13am
Opher G--- What a perfect recipe for an amoeba or a stromatolite. This still doesn't explain what environmental factor(s) could give rise to DNA, many viruses don't have it.  They propagate with RNA.
 
Then we have Prion (Protein) Diseases (PrP).  Truly a very bad step in evolution, one that could wipe out all life that we know and replace it.  But then is that life?  Is self-propagation "life"?
 
DNA is intelligent programming.  Who's "intelligence"? 
 
Hey, just throwing these things out there.
 
:)
 
My theory(ies) does allow just for the creation of the universe itself. the "Let there be light", thingy...and the universe unfolds as it was designed to.  But no one really noticed, the "word" was the first vibrations that create light and everything else.  Hymmmmmmm...
 
Astrophysicists really don't have a clue.  Spot them that one miracle and they claim they can explain everything else through evolution.  I'm good with that too.
 
I see it this way, life is a preprogrammed function of said universe.  If it wasn't for the imbalance of matter & antimatter at the very beginning (more matter than "anti") there would be no universe, no suns, no planets and no life at all.  NOW, onto the big question, What caused the imbalance in the first place?
 
I've read up on M-theory and its variations of a multi-verse and bubble universes just popping in and out of existence (or just grazing each other) and that there must be at least 10 dimensions, "to explain everything".  Nice theories. 
 
I love to ponder the unknown, gives me something constructive/destructive to do for the day. Ugh, Okay, ever since I got sober...
 
"Gerri, you're back where you started!"
 
 
Steel B--- Are you saying there are no "do-overs"???
 
But....but....
 
:)
 
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 8, 2019 - 11:20am
Gerrilea
My theory(ies) does allow just for the creation of the universe itself. the "Let there be light", thingy...and the universe unfolds as it was designed to.  But no one really noticed, the "word" was the first vibrations that create light and everything else.
 
Sound vibrations being the first act of creation seems a common aspect between Genesis and one of Hinduism's creation myths.
 
I've read up on M-theory and its variations of a multi-verse and bubble universes just popping in and out of existence (or just grazing each other) and that there must be at least 10 dimensions, "to explain everything".  Nice theories. 
 
Then nothing can be ruled out including Gods and demons. In a multidimensional universe, all possibilities exist.
Stone-Eater Added Feb 8, 2019 - 11:52am
Steel
 
Don't worry. After death "feels" like before birth....
Gerrilea Added Feb 8, 2019 - 11:53am
Michael B B--
 
Then nothing can be ruled out including Gods and demons. In a multidimensional universe, all possibilities exist.
 
Just because something is possible does not mean it is probable.  It is possible that I bounce a ball off my kitchen wall and it will just pass through said (as if it wasn't there) but is that "probable"?  No.  The random possibility that the laws of physics will cease, just for that moment as the ball approaches exist mathematically but reality negates them.
 
One persons "god" might be anothers "demon". 
 
 
Gerrilea Added Feb 8, 2019 - 11:55am
Stone Eater--- there you go again, with "useless" analogies that might just hit the nail on the head.  Dagnabbit!
 
:)
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 8, 2019 - 1:57pm
Gerrilea
Your ball example only holds true in this dimension. Assuming there is infinite dimension then in one or of them the ball passes through the wall.
 
Anyway only through very complex science can you prove why an atom made up of pure energy particles creates solid matter when there are enough of them. There is no simple answer why empty atoms make solid matter. 
Same way there is no simple answer to the existence of God.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 8, 2019 - 2:01pm
Time exists but there is nothing to contain Time. it is completely abstract and can only be measured by the movements of objects in space. Time can be measured but not seen, felt, sensed or contained.
Time corrupts all and eventually destroys everything. the passage of time is relentless yet there is nothing to substantiate time by itself. 
I am sure through complex Quantum physics Time can be explained.
Krishna: Behold I have become Time the destroyer of worlds (and even death).
Tubularsock Added Feb 8, 2019 - 3:17pm
opher, Tubularsock is taking a different bus out of town so your lists, though intriguing, don’t apply.
 
The question is where are you going when you are already there.
 
Swimming upstream is not following the flow!
 
Cheerio
Mustafa Kemal Added Feb 8, 2019 - 10:37pm
Opher,
re"- BTW - most bird song is aggression - territorial, to drive off rivals and to attract a mate."
 
It is beautiful nevertheless. Interesting que no?
Gerrilea Added Feb 8, 2019 - 10:44pm
Michael B B--- My definition of time is not yours.  Time is measurement of change.  Change exists but time does not, it is a mathematical representation of said change, an illusion or construct of our minds to quantify all things around us.
 
Research does not establish "infinite dimensions". Our mathematical models of this universe present unique qualities that need up to 11 dimensions for it's unfolding and only a possibility of "infinite universes".
 
There is no simple answer why empty atoms make solid matter. 
 
Electromagnetic fields winding in upon itself gives us the atom.
 
A single atom of oxygen cannot blow a tree down, but combine trillions and trillions and they can wreak havoc across the planet as if they are a solid mass.
 
The more challenging question is how do vibrating strings of energy become stationary forms in the vacuum of space.  Further, what/where doe the energy come from to make them vibrate endlessly?
 
God, the prime mover???
 
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 9, 2019 - 2:31am
Gerrilea:
Of course, Time does exist. Going at the speed of light time stops. Going through a wormhole allows a person to cross the universe in a fraction of the time. 
In Quantum physics time is not simply measured by change. 
Gerrilea Added Feb 9, 2019 - 6:27am
Michael B B---

 
Nope, it's an illusion.   There is no proof that wormholes exist. Again, just the machinations of our imperfect math.
 
As for "speed of light", interesting theory that has been debunked through actual experimentations.
 
Google it.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 9, 2019 - 11:23am
Gerrilea
But black holes do exist.
and you have not answered how empty atoms make solid objects. "Electromagnetic fields" is yet another form of energy.
The surface of the atom: energy field
nuclei of the Atom: (electrons, protons, neutrons, quarks) energy. 
Space between these energy points: Empty space.
Yet sold matter takes place from empty space. 
If you answer with a complex mathematical answer then use that to explain God.
opher goodwin Added Feb 9, 2019 - 3:34pm
What an interesting thread.
Yes - I think after death is just the same as before birth.
Black, holes, evolution, infinity, quantum physics - life and DNA. What a wonder life is.
Enjoy it and question everything.
Gerrilea Added Feb 9, 2019 - 3:55pm
Michael B B--- I've finally figured out you just want to argue. I love a good debate.  I gave you my answer, you can reject it, I'm good with that.  Repeating the question in another fashion will not change my answer.  I will state this for the record, we have never seen the structure of an atom, we have postulations and theories but no direct observations to confirm any of them.  Here's the latest model theory.
 
Now how you got from a mathematical answer to God and that I must use your criteria is a red-herring.  God is not a complex mathematical construct.  What is the value of infinity? What is the value of nothingness?  Alpha & Omega.  One in the same. A light switch "on" or "off".
 
Oh, and no our "modern" astrophysicists are mistaken on what a black hole is.  They create the opposite of the "big bang" (where we granted them one miracle) and then they claim matter (energy) can be compressed into a singularity through "black holes", where the laws of physics "don't apply".  They want me to grant them ANOTHER miracle.  Nope, one's enough.
 
The Thunderbolts Project is rational and more accurate description of our universe.  I tend to lean towards theories that are a reflection of what we actually can observe.
 
And, by-the-by, we have not seen black holes, too much dust and debris. We suspect some massive body/structure lay at the center of most galaxies and we cannot "make out" what it is.  Again, just theories.
 
 
 
Gerrilea Added Feb 9, 2019 - 4:04pm
Opher G--- Glad you joined us.  ROFL.  We have gone through many things while you were out.  I've been contemplating the structure of life and the universe that gave rise to all things, for a very, very long time.
 
I wrote a thesis for one of my Masters Classes at College decades ago that reflected my view that "God" was the universe.  We always have existed "within" Him and always will.  Today when someone says "heathens" worship nature, they just don't get it.
 
I never believed "God" would be that vain he'd create us to worship him.
 
 
Gerrilea Added Feb 9, 2019 - 4:07pm
Opher G--- Or a "God" that was a real estate agent, either.
 
Oopsy.
 
:)
 
ChetDude Added Feb 9, 2019 - 10:24pm
Call your doctor or go to the nearest Emergency Room if you experience being dead for more than four hours...
opher goodwin Added Feb 10, 2019 - 5:46am
Good advice Chet!
opher goodwin Added Feb 10, 2019 - 5:51am
Gerri - I'm on Grandchildren duty. Not much time.
What we call god is just a hum through the universe. It's when we get into the stuff of some entity that cares about people, who created people, and all that stuff about heaven, hell, afterlives, sin and chosen people. All so human.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 10, 2019 - 9:50am
Gerrilea
No, I do not want to simply argue. The basic definitions of God that we give him is that he is 
Immortal
All-pervading
the creator
All Knowing
and often Omnipotent and Omnipresent. He can be anything at any time. It is this context that God is understood by theologians. How can you debate God without including these descriptions. If you do include them then the closest to them in Science would the Abstract aspect that builds what you consider real.
We do observe atom and it is called the Particle Collider.
Inside a Particle Collider is a massive circular Tunnel that looks empty to the naked eye. When it activated only supercomputers can possibly catch the moment a subatomic particle crashes into another creating other subatomic particles. None of that is seen by the naked eye but only using extremely advanced computer systems can these particles be observed.
Same with God. No easy answer. 
How can solid matter come from atoms which consist mainly of energy and space. Some could see a miraculous act in it. 
What is the purpose of seeing miraculous acts or creating the divine. It simply could be the product of the mind and what that has created is civilization. 
Another way to state it is that Civilization was not created in the absence of God.
 
 
nother way to put it is that Civilization was not created in the absence of God.
opher goodwin Added Feb 10, 2019 - 5:57pm
Michael - in one sense there is a miracle in everything. The fact that anything exists is miraculous. Each aspect of the universe - atom, energy, space and time - is miraculous.
In another sense nothing is miraculous; everything is a natural phenomenon of amazing awe and wonder.
I see no hand of god in it. I see a stupendous wonder beyond mere human comprehension.
We humans, in regard to the universe, are analogous to bacteria in a toilet bowl speculating on a descending arse.
opher goodwin Added Feb 10, 2019 - 6:04pm
Gerri - I'm cool with nature. I'd rather marvel at that than anything else.
There are many things we can describe as god - from atomic energy to some guy on a cloud - but personally I do not mind. It is with religion that I have a gripe. I have no need for this human construct. I have no need for the guilt-trip, the dogma, the intolerance or rivalry. If the god of cosmic energy is conscious, I'm sure he wouldn't be vindictive enough to create such arbitrary rules on sex and such sadistic punishments - a clear product of Arab culture.
opher goodwin Added Feb 10, 2019 - 6:06pm
Mustafa, yes bird song is beautiful - like all of nature. We should love and respect it.
opher goodwin Added Feb 10, 2019 - 6:07pm
Tub - there is no upstream or different routes where there is no direction!
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 10, 2019 - 7:19pm
Opher
 It is with religion that I have a gripe. I have no need for this human construct.
But you do
The computer language we are engaged in came from religion (placement of zero in a mathematical setting to the Hindu numerals- Computer language is a series of  and Zero)
From this example extrapolate how religion created civilization. If you and I engaged at a basic level of the things religion did to advance civilization you would understand that negating religion negates civilization.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 10, 2019 - 7:19pm
Computer language is a series of 1 and Zero)
Tubularsock Added Feb 10, 2019 - 7:24pm
AND opher, there is no direction except in the mind.
opher goodwin Added Feb 11, 2019 - 8:12am
Michael - I do not agree with your logic.
The first recorded zero appeared in Mesopotamia around 3 B.C. The Mayans invented it independently circa 4 A.D. It was later devised in India in the mid-fifth century, spread to Cambodia near the end of the seventh century, and into China and the Islamic countries at the end of the eighth.
I don't know why you would connect the idea to religion?? It is a very human bit of logic that has spontaneously been conceived many times.
Likewise I do not see why you think civilisation can't exist without religion?? It is true that for humans to coexist in such large numbers we require to believe in certain fictions - religion, nation, leaders, money being four such myths (all being fictions we have created). But in this modern age we have the ability to create better myths to believe in - such as the unity of mankind, the respect for nature, the good of the planet.
opher goodwin Added Feb 11, 2019 - 8:12am
Tub - my mind has direction???
Gerrilea Added Feb 11, 2019 - 11:07am
Michael B B--- Your problems start here and are compounded:
 
The basic definitions of God that we give him is that he is 
Immortal All-pervading  the creator  All Knowing
and often Omnipotent and Omnipresent. He can be anything at any time. It is this context that God is understood by theologians. How can you debate God without including these descriptions.
 
Man "defining" God.  Blasphemy.
 
As for your arguments from authority, ie "understood by theologians"....Meaningless.
 
The God I know, isn't the one you've created in your mind, your textbooks or your temples.
 
A particle accelerator does not "see" anything, it measures the breakdown of "matter" into bits of energy and measures said energy signal, if detected.
 
As for this garbage:
 
Another way to state it is that Civilization was not created in the absence of God.
 
Explain Native Americans.  They didn't create their civilization because of their concepts of a god but out of convenience.  There is strength in numbers.
 
And, I'm pretty sure that's what our ancestors did when they moved out of caves.  It wasn't because they had any concepts of God, there were natural forces they could not subdue alone.  Working together to survive isn't "from God".  It is an innate aspect of life.
 
Do birds working together to survive mean they believe in a God?
When wolves hunt in packs, are they doing so because of a belief in God?  When the alpha male defeats any contenders, he rules his created society/tribe/pack.
 
We humans, are no different than the animals in the forest.  It clear that force rules this world, even in the animal kingdom.  And that's how your "civilization" came into being, by force.  Mans subjugation of other men and forcing them to "believe" what they are told.
 
You must fear God first. He will bring a great flooding to destroy the wicked among us. You must sacrifice your virgins to the God of the Volcano or he will destroy us.  You must sacrifice your firstborn or you will burn in the fires of an eternal hell.
 
Yep, I got your number on "civilization", its an illusion/delusion to rationalize the subjugation of the masses.
 
 
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 11, 2019 - 12:42pm
Gerrilea
Man "defining" God.  Blasphemy.
God is defined by man. That is how we get our holy books. 
You have a choice
-If  you do not believe in God then God is an invention of man
-If you believe in God then God is a discovery of man
, either way, God is central to civilization and the evolution of mankind. 
.
Explain Native Americans. Which ones? Aztecs? Mayan? Olmec? Inca? Navajo? 
All their creation is due to religion. The native tribes o North America have some of the richest mythologies, and folklore which play a major role in the evolution of civilization. 
.
Surviving is one issue. Thinking in the abstract which Dwelling on the Divine inspires is the kind of thinking that generates innovations. 
.
Stick to humans, not birds. Only humans made it to the moon and that is due to religion.
.
Fearing God is a Jewish cult thing. Loving God is another way to relate to God. Man's relationship to God has endless paths.
.
The only "number" you got is your own incapacity to rise above your limited understanding of the concept of God and how it played in the evolution of man. Please do not project your shortcomings on me.
 
Gerrilea Added Feb 11, 2019 - 1:38pm
Michael B B--- Au contraire, mon ami!  I soundly reject your claims because I do understand. The "god" in your sacred texts and temples is not the one God that I know.  Hey but if you want to believe in a Blue Bunny God or Gods because someone invented them thousands of year ago.  Have fun.  I have no obligations to buy into your bullshit.
 
We made it to the Moon because of religion???  Where do you come up with these ideas?  Did NASA have a secret founding statement that we weren't privy to?
 
Here, read up:
 
"An Act to provide for research into the problems of flight within and outside the Earth's atmosphere, and for other purposes." With this simple preamble, the Congress and the President of the United States created the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) on October 1, 1958.
 
In layman's terms we were in a space race with the Soviets. They got bragging rights for having placed the first man-made object into orbit.  We wouldn't be outdone. We got bragging rights when we took man to another celestial body, as military exercise.  NASA is an agency under the Department of Defense.
 
IN fact, the majority of humanities technological advancements over the past 100 yrs came from understanding that we didn't need a "god" to explain the universe we exist in.  Science does a very good job, with a few "minor" exceptions which I discussed previously.
 
Our invention of the light bulb dragged humanity out of the dark ages of your absurd belief system.  NO it wasn't magic, it was We The People.  Mans invention of the radio, tel-lie-vision, the transistor, the computer, the automobile, the Empire State Building WASN'T because we were celebrating your gods or trying to reach said imaginary beings.
 
Whew, yep I do understand more and reject what you offer today.
 
Gerrilea Added Feb 11, 2019 - 2:05pm
(and let me add one more thing)
 
Don't all of those "great civilizations" that were based on religion and gods have one thing in common?  They fell and became extinct.  Sumerian civilization, gone. Greek civilization, gone. Egyptian civilization, gone. Mayan, Celtic, Aztec, etc...all gone.  Taking with them the advanced technological precepts that allowed them to move 1000 ton stones, hundreds of miles away and place them perfectly, building things we could not accomplish today.
 
If their civilizations were built on sound principles, they'd still exist.  All that is left are fractured peoples with fractured beliefs/dogma and some amazing structures that have no one left to tell us the true story.
 
opher goodwin Added Feb 11, 2019 - 2:56pm
Michael - it was only after we ditched religion that we managed to get science going and get to the moon. Before that they thought the earth was flat and it was the centre of the universe. Only after the enlightenment were we free to develop.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 11, 2019 - 8:13pm
Opher
Separation of Science and Religion does not mean religion ended. Go back through the ages and you will see Science and religion were one stream.
Going to the moon: includes
The concept of Zero placed in mathematics. that concept of giving value to empty space is a religious idea of neither positive or negative. It is Hindu idea to give value to an empty space by placing it between positive and negative numbers. Computer language is a series of 1 and 0.
The creation of positive and negative numbers springs from the Hindu faith. Unfortunately, I am not versed deep enough to give you the philosophical concepts that created the opposites and why they are calculated.
Hinduism spent an inordinate amount of time on Time. Everything is measured in billions of years and seconds are broken down to minute aspects of it. (nanoseconds)
Men like Copernicus, Galileo and Aryabhata were religious men who discovered the circumference of the earth, that it orbited around the sun that it spun around and measured 25 thousand miles in circumference.
I can go on but the point is religion was central to all these men who made discoveries and inventions. many due to meeting religious requirements as in massive building projects or trying to understand a philosophical concept.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 11, 2019 - 8:17pm
Gerrilea
Don't all of those "great civilizations" that were based on religion and gods have one thing in common?  They fell and became extinct.  Sumerian civilization, gone. Greek civilization, gone. Egyptian civilization, gone. Mayan, Celtic, Aztec, etc...all gone.  Taking with them the advanced technological precepts that allowed them to move 1000 ton stones, hundreds of miles away and place them perfectly, building things we could not accomplish today.
 
No they transferred their cultures to others. Egypt influenced the Etruscans, Minoans, Myceneans, Greeks, Romans. 
Renaissance was the rebirth of Greco Rome
Eastern world included the Hindu/Buddhist cultures that never died. 
Gerrilea Added Feb 11, 2019 - 9:13pm
Michael B B---
 
The History of Zero:
 
"Zero as a placeholder was invented independently in civilizations around the world, said Dr. Annette van der Hoek."
 
India, China, Native Americans, Mayans all came to similar understandings. A rather logical mathematical evolution.
 
No need for God.
 
"No they transferred their cultures to others"
 
Really now?? The Sumerians decided to end their civilization and give their "culture" to others.  Ditto for the Mayans, et al.
 
Got it.
 
It wouldn't be that they were overtaken by superior force of another civilization? Or that their foundational "religious dogma" was corrupt and there were insurrections of the masses of slaves?
 
The Indian civilization/people still exist but do they have 1 superior religious faith that dictates how all of society must live? At one time, that caste system was all they knew. Various wars, invasions and occupations have changed those principles to include other ideas and beliefs.
 
China and Japan followed similar paths.  China is doing its best to destroy anyone with any faith other than service/submission to the state.
 
Same shit, different rulers and dogma.  God has no part in that process today.
 
As for your delusion the Enlightenment/ Renaissance was a rebirth of the Greco/Roman empire ...Okay then.
 
Have a good night, no need to discuss this any further.
 
 
opher goodwin Added Feb 12, 2019 - 1:01pm
Michael - I didn't suggest religion ended. What ended was its power over the state. It freed science to progress. Religion is very conservative and stifling. It sets standards and views from thousands of years back. We've improved since then.
opher goodwin Added Feb 12, 2019 - 1:07pm
Michael - I disagree - the concept of zero is a mathematical idea - not religious.
Copernicus and Galileo were scientists (and quite probably atheists - though you got burnt at the stake for stating that) who were threatened with death by the church for declaring such blasphemous things.
#Galileo was ordered to turn himself in to the Holy Office to begin trial for holding the belief that the Earth revolves around the Sun, which was deemed heretical by the Catholic Church.
opher goodwin Added Feb 12, 2019 - 1:08pm
Michael - those cultures were conquered, pillaged and robbed. Some of their culture was stolen but not all.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 12, 2019 - 8:40pm
Gerrilea
Zero existed in many cultures but it was the Hindus who used it as a place holder in mathematics.
 
You have a real problem with  God, don't you? No wonder you hated your own male genitals and chose the life of a dried up old barren woman whose only worth in life in intimacy is through sexual intercourse with men. or a twisted sexual relationship with another woman pretending to be one. 
 
You are the definition of a mentally fucked up mind. 
Yes sweetie that is how technology went from one culture to the next
Sri Lanka nd South India were the first to invent Steel (600 BC)  
Roman Empire first to invent Cement. then it was forgotten and reinvented in the 19th century
Papyrus or the first paper came from Egypt which is now dead. Paper products also came from China. Who also gave paper currency
Dead and gone Aztecs gave the coco bean aka Coffee and the Vanilla bean. 
When they removed your balls did your IQ drop too?
Gerrilea Added Feb 13, 2019 - 2:20am
Michael, I've really hit your panic button haven't I?
 
You claim they "transferred" their culture and then say I'm mentally fucked up.... HOW does that "mind" of yours work???

All that you've proven here is that you are unstable.  Your history is twisted to suit your mental instability.
 
What do we know of the Sumerians?  We know they created the first written language and texts in 3500 BC and the Kish tablets establish these facts. Almost all languages used throughout the world, can be traced back to them.  I'm very familiar with the Epic of Gilgamesh. the story is reflected in the Bible and many cultures of a "great flood".
 
And you really did avoid, through your disjointed rantings, the point I presented.
 
Their civilizations fell.  Their faith, dogma and gods didn't stop it. Their allegedly superior mores didn't stop it.  Their technological advances didn't stop it.
 
Humanity lost its collective knowledge and history with them...
 
The Antikythera mechanism is generally referred to as the first known analogue computer.  Dating back to 87 BC. 
 
We have evidence that the oldest known pottery was from China, 20.000 yrs ago.
 
We go back further and there are 3 million year old stone tools, that were created BEFORE we allegedly evolved.
 
The complete history of our species and this planet are truly unknown.  What is clear, we evolve, we create civilizations and they fall.
 
You claim throughout these rises and falls that "God" was the impetus for our civilizations.
 
I wholeheartedly disagree and I have evidence that you cannot refute, little one.
 
Are you gonna now go off on my genitals, my anger with God and how evil I am, once again?
 
And as viciously as you've attacked me, I really do believe you are a Muslim, pretending to be everything and anything else.
 
Keep on keeping on.  You've lost this debate.
 
opher goodwin Added Feb 13, 2019 - 10:00am
Michael - there is no need for such a personal attack. Argument is one thing, abuse is another. I think you owe Gerri an apology.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 13, 2019 - 10:53am
Gerrilea
Your compartmentalized history is the problem. various civilizations interacted back then as they do today.
In your make believe world each civilization is isolated from the other. That is because you can only handle on civilization at a time.
Opher feels I owe you an apology
I am sorry I called you a dried up old woman. 
Gerrilea Added Feb 13, 2019 - 11:38am
Michael B B---
 
“The defense seems to have been prepared according to the old rules. ‘If the facts are against you, hammer the law. If the law is against you, hammer the facts. If the fact and the law are against you, hammer opposing counsel.'”
 
You lose.  You have nothing so keep attacking me personally to hide your failures.
 
Those ancient civilizations fell.  If said civilizations were based on valid moral beliefs, such as your claims that their belief in God created said, that could not happen, now could it?!
 
Clearly they didn't base their civilization's on valid precepts.
 
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 13, 2019 - 11:53am
Opher
Michael - I disagree - the concept of zero is a mathematical idea - not religious.
"The Zero Project hypothesizes that mathematical zero ('shunya', in Sanskrit) may have arisen from the contemporaneous philosophy of emptiness or Shunyata," said Gobets. If philosophical and cultural factors found in India were important to the development of zero as a mathematical concept, it would explain why other civilizations did not develop zero as a mathematical concept, said van der Hoek. 
According to the book "The Crest of the Peacock; Non-European Roots of Mathematics," by Dr. George Gheverghese Joseph, the concept of zero first appeared in India around A.D. 458. Joseph suggests that the Sanskrit word for zero, śūnya, which meant "void" or "empty" and derived from the word for growth, combined with the early definition found in the Rig-veda of "lack" or "deficiency." The derivative of the two definitions is Śūnyata, a Buddhist doctrine of "emptiness," or emptying one's mind from impressions and thoughts. 
"From this philosophy, we think that a numeral to use in mathematical equations developed," said van der Hoek. "We are looking for the bridge between Indian philosophy and mathematics."
Zero as a number came from religion 
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 13, 2019 - 11:56am
Opher
Michael - those cultures were conquered, pillaged and robbed. Some of their culture was stolen but not all.
The modern version would be Operation Paperclip when we smuggled in 1600 Nazi Scientists at the end of the war. We defeated Germany and then took their technology. 
Gerrilea Added Feb 13, 2019 - 12:48pm
Michael, you are a liar and are quoting things out of context!
 
Here:
 
"The Sumerians' system passed through the Akkadian Empire to the Babylonians around 300 B.C. There, Kaplan agrees, a symbol appeared that was clearly a placeholder — a way to tell 10 from 100 or to signify that in the number 2,025, there is no number in the hundreds column. Initially, the Babylonians left an empty space in their cuneiform number system, but when that became confusing, they added a symbol — double angled wedges — to represent the empty column. However, they never developed the idea of zero as a number."
 
"Six hundred years later and 12,000 miles from Babylon, the Mayans developed zero as a placeholder around A.D. 350 and used it to denote a placeholder in their elaborate calendar systems. Despite being highly skilled mathematicians, the Mayans never used zero in equations, however. Kaplan describes the Mayan invention of zero as the "most striking example of the zero being devised wholly from scratch."
 
In fact, the Mayan's had 3 calendars, the Long Count, the Tzolkin (divine calendar), and the Haab (civil calendar). Each of them is cyclical, meaning that a certain number of days must occur before a new cycle can begin. The three calendars are used simultaneously.
 
Where does the Zero Project claim that the zero was created because of a belief in God or religion????
 
It doesn't.
 
India is credited with using zero as an actual number.  Was that because of the Hindu faith or the various other beliefs there?
 
If so, prove it.