Free health care is humane

Free health care is humane. Many, many US citizens have NO Insurance! And look what we pay for drugs!!!! The USA health care system is a JOKE. In fact, we're just about the only western civilized society that doesn't provide it for their citizens.

 

Israel does, all of western Europe does. Even Mexico and lowly Cuba. And $20 a pack for cigarettes may be a Good Idea, since we all pay the insurance when smokers get sick/cancer, etc. Don't you think that may discourage young people from starting? Try to get a college education here, you pay Through the Nose. Look at how many students are in tremendous debt! They'll never pay it back. It's a Joke, just like our broke country (21 trillion in debt) and rising faster under Trump than maybe even under GW Bush.

Comments

Leroy Added Feb 11, 2019 - 9:27am
Sure.  Free housing, meals, and, by all means, a free education too.  Why have all those carpenters, electricians, technicians, and welders when we can all be art and English majors.  We all need cable.  Let's make that free too.  And, while we're at it free, cell phones.  Oh, wait, we already have that.  Cigarettes are so expensive and disproportionately used by the poor, those should be free too.  Pot?  Let's make that free too.  Everyone has pain or mental illness who could benefit.  Let's just give everyone a middle-class lifestyle even if they are unwilling to work for it.  That would be the compassionate thing to do.
Steel Breeze Added Feb 11, 2019 - 9:28am
lol....
opher goodwin Added Feb 11, 2019 - 9:37am
I think that the judge of a civilisation is how well it treats its weakest members. It seems to me that the US does a pretty bad job. For a supposedly Christian country it is pretty good at turning the other cheek to the needy.
What is daft though is the way they are prepared to pay through the nose for healthcare that could and should be half the cost.
A nationalised system would not only be better, fairer but also a lot cheaper - and in the end everybody pays.
Robin the red breasted songster Added Feb 11, 2019 - 9:52am
Centrally funded health care is obviously better for a number of very good reasons:
 
1.  A single big "customer" has the type of purchasing power which a lone sick human will never have
2.  It eliminates layers of accounting and bureaucracy prevalent in those countries which use purely private medicine and private insurance
3.  It allows investment in primary care... reducing the need for expensive drugs and surgical intervention
4.  By examining the difference between, for example, the US and UK systems, it delivers about 2-3 years extra life expectancy for around half of the overall cost.
5.  It is inherently a fairer system
6.  It leads to greater happiness as millions are removed from constant worry about actual and potential medical bills
7.  For those in work, you create a more efficient and competitive workforce because they are healthier and less burdened by worry
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 11, 2019 - 9:54am
The purpose of an economy is to serve the citizen. If the purpose of an economy is to make a profit then it is done at the expense of the citizen. 
If the wellbeing of the citizen is the central reason for an economy then the health of the citizen should be a right.
Gerrilea Added Feb 11, 2019 - 11:46am
Katman--- So the Almighty State has a "vested interest" in making everyone happy and healthy to maintain a stable "society".  Then you shouldn't care about the debt incurred, none of us should.  We won't have to pay that back, our prodigy will whilst forced into perpetual poverty on Feudal Estates called Urban centers, where our corporate overlords have replaced our Feudal Lords.
 
I spend 43% of my current life working for those "benefits" you wish to expand to all.  Does this mean I must forfeit the other 57% of my life to attain your utopia?
 
Our government has made it clear, ever since Reagan, corporations and the wealthy elite that run them will not pay for it.  We will and how do you propose we so?
 

 
Robin the red breasted songster Added Feb 11, 2019 - 11:52am
The state should, in a well ordered society, be the duly elected representatives of the people.   Therefore it is the Commonwealth... all of us.   And we all have a vested interest in society being stable.
 
Gerrilea you are quite right that it is the wealthy elite who must pay precisely because it is in their hands where the bulk of wealth is to be found.  There is no way round it.  They will fight tooth and nail to avoid this...and they have big resources that they can employ.
 
Of course paying up is in their own long term interests as well.   No one wants a horde of starving peasants overrunning their nice well ordered gated community... or robbing their food supplies etc etc.  They also need a market to ensure that the wealth keeps flowing...
opher goodwin Added Feb 11, 2019 - 3:27pm
Gerri - the very function of the state is to keep people safe and make their lives better. If it makes the life of its citizens better it is doing its job - hence taxes, infrastructure, education, health, defence, power. If something can be done better and cheaper by private enterprise then fair enough. But I can't see it. If someone is creaming off the top it is going to be more expensive.
opher goodwin Added Feb 11, 2019 - 6:16pm
36 years of top quality education and 60 books is my contribution Mogg. What's yours?
Robin the red breasted songster Added Feb 11, 2019 - 6:20pm
Mogg:  Universal health care is not perfect and has a lot of limitations.   However it has been empirically proven to be more cost effective than a "free market" model in several countries around the world.
 
Yes it has limitations.   But these are fewer in number and less severe than the limitations of the "free market" alternative.
Cullen Kehoe Added Feb 11, 2019 - 6:27pm
I think the U.S. is one Democrat victory away from a single payer system. The Republicans had a brief moment to offer an alternative to ObamaCare and all they could come up was repealing the $2000 penalty. 
 
Due to Republican inaction and lack of a solution, single payer is coming in a few short yeas. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 11, 2019 - 6:34pm
Let us all understand that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREE HEALTH CARE.  Or free almost anything else.  The value of air is approaching free, and in many location the value of other things like water is also very low.  But nothing is totally FREE.  Our body expends energy for example to breath thus the food is a cost for breathing.
 
Why is health care not FREE????  Because the people that provide the service GET PAID,  the suppliers of the consumables GET PAID, the providers of water, electricity, removal of wastes, etc. ALL GET PAID, and the building cost something to build and maintain they too ALL GET PAID.   SOMEONE DOES THE PAYING BUT IN THE END THE BUCK STOPS AT THE RESIDENTS OF THE COUNTRY WHICH ARE THE PATENTS.
 
The difference between the approaches for health care or for that matter anything else is the relationship between those that obtain value and those that pay for providing the value.   That simple.
 
Humans all do things for the reason of SELF INTEREST.  Self interest is programmed into the genetics of all living things otherwise that species will go extinct.   The changing environment from second to second requires chooses to do something in our own self interest.  
 
Self interest means that one obtains VALUE FROM EFFORT TOWARDS SURVIVAL.   The basic problem of  socialist government is the government separating effort from value.  Taxes is a demand for effort with not direct connection to the value received.  
 
A welfare state which national health care is a significant part of has a very weak to even negative relationship between effort and value.  The malaise economy experience during the Obama administration is the result of those that can produce value choose not to produce as much as they can since the do not receive the associated value for any additional effort.   
 
This is why National health care and a welfare states always in the end collapse like the USSR and now Venezuela or become a malaise nation of shared misery, low wealth production like the most developed socialist nations (communist nations.) 
 
I have gone into great detail in the last few days on the reason 'MEDICARE FOR ALL WILL BE NO BETTER THEN OBAMA CARE.  Obama's 2008 campaign for heath care in effect presented 'Medicare for all'  you can keep your doctor and/ or choose new one and provider.  Insurance or yourself will pay a small portion.  Save $2500 per family.   Self interest of those at the bill drafting table in the first two years of Obama and Trump produced the system the swamp wanted.  Anyone that expects a different outcome is an idiot!!!   How to pay for a green New Deal
by Ana Ross
George N Romey Added Feb 11, 2019 - 7:21pm
Ultimately that’s where it’s going. People showing up at the emergency room getting free but given substandard care which leads to more free visits to the emergency room.  There is no “free market solution.”
Gerrilea Added Feb 11, 2019 - 8:41pm
Mogg T --- I do not agree that our set of values is what is stopping this from occurring. The corporate takeover of our government, at every level, has.
 
They will not be denied their bottom line.
 
They Actually Admitted There is No Money In Curing People.
 
Goldman Sacs asks: "Is curing patients a sustainable business model?"
 
"The potential to deliver 'one shot cures' is one of the most attractive aspects of gene therapy, genetically-engineered cell therapy and gene editing. However, such treatments offer a very different outlook with regard to recurring revenue versus chronic therapies," analyst Salveen Richter wrote in the note to clients Tuesday. "While this proposition carries tremendous value for patients and society, it could represent a challenge for genome medicine developers looking for sustained cash flow."
 
I offered a legitimate solution.  We The People build state-of-the-art facilities and "rent" rooms, operating equipment etc to qualified physicians.  The more they charge a patient the more they pay in rent.  We would have control on how our money is spent, no double-billing, no fake invoices for "services performed", etc.
 
If We The People fund research into new lifesaving technologies (or any technology), we keep the patent.
 
You lambasted said. 
 
You attacked me so viciously I suspected you have a "vested interest" in private, for profit "health insurance" and it's accompanying fraud in the private "health system" we've been force fed for decades.
 
 
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Feb 12, 2019 - 2:39am
Pish posh Katman, $15 billion aircraft carriers that don't work and can't fight, and trillion dollar so-called fighter jets that can't do the same are DUHmerican priorities. People be damned. Thou shalt not doubt the judgment of your owners. 
opher goodwin Added Feb 12, 2019 - 3:27am
Lol - well I would certainly argue that you have, rather arrogantly, if I may be bold enough to venture, set yourself up in a superior judgemental role, critical, aloof and rarely actually intellectually interacting. Adopting a supercilious tone, like an old school master who is bored with his tedious students and no longer willing to engage, you hector with a tone of disdain, secure in your superiority, above the banter and deriding the conversation and debate, which is clearly well below the standard required for your involvement.
When questioned on your worth, your value, your contributions, you evade the question, brush it off as one would an irritating fly and continue with your tone of mild annoyance, irritability and rebuke. For these things are far too superficial to be worthy of your attention.
Pontificating - I think not, for the content is lacking. All that is there in the vacuous response is one of tone, attitude and disdain.
opher goodwin Added Feb 12, 2019 - 3:27am
Sorry - that's addressed to Mogg.
Ward Tipton Added Feb 12, 2019 - 7:57am
"I spend 43% of my current life working for those "benefits" you wish to expand to all.  Does this mean I must forfeit the other 57% of my life to attain your utopia?"
 
What? Why are you only willing to give a hundred percent? Aren't you willing to contribute the life's blood of your children as well? Don't you love the almighty and benevolent State? Don't you bow to the idols of your dear leaders? 
 
Where is your sense of patriotism? Your sense of humanity?
Robin the red breasted songster Added Feb 12, 2019 - 9:40am
Thomas:   Of course health care is not free.  And of course we humans tend to act in our own self interest.
 
The point about universal health care is that it is in our own immediate and long term collective self interest.   It costs half as much and relieves people from worry.  This generates greater overall national wealth and happiness.
 
The only reason that the USA finds it so hard to adopt the obviously and empirically proven better system is because the citizens are generally wedded to the idea of narrow, short term, personal interest and their inability to empathise with others or imagine how they might themselves need help one day....
Robin the red breasted songster Added Feb 12, 2019 - 9:42am
Ward:   If you actually charge all members of society, including the very wealthy, 43%, then there is no need to charge a higher percentage.   Also going to a universal health care model should actually half the costs that the average person faces for health care.   
 
So I don't understand why you are not demanding to bring it in so that you can pay less?   Why continue to pay more?
Robin the red breasted songster Added Feb 12, 2019 - 9:46am
Mogg:   I will grant you that the USA has a very powerful mythology about it being founded on "freedom" etc etc (see various Hollywood films / propaganda).   The reality was, of course, that "freedom" in reality meant freedom for white, relatively well off, men.   George Washington himself kept some 310 slaves and was known for treating them very badly.
 
America did not declare independence to set up some mythical state of freedom for "all men" at all.   But that is the way it has been spun.   The funny thing is that you all seem to believe this bullshit.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 12, 2019 - 9:53am
Robin
The funny thing is that you all seem to believe this bullshit.
 
Ward Tipton Added Feb 12, 2019 - 9:54am
"So I don't understand why you are not demanding to bring it in so that you can pay less?   Why continue to pay more?"
 
Ummm, because the government has declared that I do not exist ... so not only will I not pay less, I will not have to pay more either. You may ask whoever has assumed my identity in Florida though, perhaps they could weigh in on the matter ... but that is a separate issue I suppose. 
 
If they were going to charge everyone a flat tax across the board, it would likely require that they reconsider the fact that labor is not free ... thus taxing it becomes suspect as only profits may be lawfully taxed ... our time is the most precious commodity we have. 
 
To be fair or even to delve into the realm of reasonable, I would have to vote for a usage tax or consumer tax. I choose to consume very little from society, so I would still pay very little, though perhaps more than I do now.
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 12, 2019 - 9:56am
Not me.
I knew that "freedom" and Liberty were only for whites.
when Armstrong landed on the moon and said "one small step for man one giant step for mankind" he did not mean people of color.
I grew up with an all-white Hollywood during the 60's the rare black actor like Sidney Poitier did not make any difference.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Feb 12, 2019 - 10:21am
I knew that "freedom" and Liberty were only for whites.
 
I'm white and I never felt free in DUHmerica. Good thing too as I damn sure wasn't. 
 
Leroy Added Feb 12, 2019 - 10:43am
What did it mean to you when people of color went into space?  It seems people of color are part of mankind after all.
Ward Tipton Added Feb 12, 2019 - 10:53am
Funny thing is that those most often screaming racism, seem to see very little outside of the color of the skin of people ... odd how that works. 
Gerrilea Added Feb 12, 2019 - 11:19am


Ward T--- I know, I was being selfish, you caught me.  I must go back to "school" where I can be "re-indoctrinated" to see the world as I've been commanded.  I promise, I'll try to give at least 110%.
 
As for a consumer tax vs straight tax. I'm for the straight tax.  A VAT tax hits and hurts the very poor.  And isn't this argument meant to "help" everyone, not just an elite few?
 
 

Robin the red breasted songster Added Feb 12, 2019 - 11:27am
I think that possibly the best tax would be an inheritance tax of a very high level... say 50%.   This will effectively collect disproportionately more from the wealthy.   It will also encourage them to spend more of what they have now... boosting the economy... rather than seeking to bequeath it to their children (Giving huge wealth to kids only fucks them up anyway!)
Ward Tipton Added Feb 12, 2019 - 11:34am
"This will effectively collect disproportionately more from the wealthy.   It will also encourage them to spend more of what they have now... boosting the economy... rather than seeking to bequeath it to their children (Giving huge wealth to kids only fucks them up anyway!)"
 
And what kind of allowances would you grant for ... the wine makers for instance, whose lands alone are worth far more than they could ever hope to amass in cash ... and subsequently to keep with a fifty percent inheritance tax? Other farmers, many small business owners? The business is not only assessed on its actual value, but the potential for income as well in many cases. 
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 12, 2019 - 2:01pm
Jeffrey
then you must truly empathize for those who were and are not white.
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 12, 2019 - 5:38pm
Robin . . . songster Feb 12 - 9:40am.  This is  false <<The point about universal health care is that it is in our own immediate and long term collective self interest.   It costs half as much and relieves people from worry.  This generates greater overall national wealth and happiness.>>   Just before this you agreed << Of course health care is not free.  And of course we humans tend to act in our own self interest.>>  
 
Then there are two options.  Your not logical and everything you say must be babble or your just pouting out the socialist dogma without thinking for your self.
 
Obama in his 2008 campaign proposed 'medicare for all'  All but said it.  Medicare is relatively small as far as percentage of the population but is also the single biggest payer in the American heath care system thus sets many of the standards.  The states have broke up the insurance companies while only Medicare in nation wide as a single entity.  
 
Self interest determined that what we received, AKA, does not even come close to the campaign promises.  I said above which you chose not to accept for one of the two reasons listed <<Self interest of those at the bill drafting table in the first two years of Obama and Trump produced the system the swamp wanted.  Anyone that expects a different outcome is an idiot!!! >> As you recall The GOP controlled House for 6 years of Obama's term passed dozens of repeal bills.  Once the GOP controlled the Senate in January 2016 Obama VETOED A REPEAL BILL passed by congress, both houses.  Ryan the next day said he would put that bill on a GOP president's desk.  Well the Ryan's House bill was called "Obamacare LITE" and the Senate bill didn't even pass but it too was called "Obamacare LITE."  The bill that passed at the end of 2015 couldn't pass in either chamber.  Nothing was placed on Trump's desk.
 
Milton Friedman explains why welfare doesn't work well.  National health care is a welfare program.  How to spend money 101: 
Category I, your spending your own money on yourself.  Strong incentive both to economize and to get as much value.
 
Category II, your spending your own money on someone else. Same incentive to economize as in Category I but not the same incentive to get full value for your money, at least as judged by the tastes of the recipient.
 
Category III; your spending someone else's money on yourself.  No strong incentive to keep down the cost, but strong incentive to get your money's worth.  For example, Social Security which involves cash payments that the recipient is free to spend as he may wish.
 
Category IV; your spending someone else's money on still another person. (this is National Health Care bureaucrat management)  Little incentive either to economize or to try to get value he will value most highly.   For example, public housing.
 
Legislators vote to spend someone else's money. The voters who elect the legislators are in one sense voting to spend their own money on themselves, but not in the direct sense of Category I spending. The Connection between the taxes any individual pays and the spending he votes for is exceeding loose. In practice, voters, like legislators, are inclined to regard someone else as paying for the programs the legislator votes for directly and the voter votes for indirectly. Bureaucrats who administer the programs are also spending someone else's money. Little wonder that the amount spent explodes. . . .
 
But that is not all. The lure of getting someone else's money is strong. Many, including the bureaucrats administering the programs, will try to get it for themselves rather than have it go to someone else. The temptation to engage in corruption, to cheat, is strong and will not always be resisted or frustrated. People who resist the temptation to cheat will use legitimate means to direct the money to themselves. They will lobby for legislation favorable to themselves, for rules from which they can benefit. The bureaucrats administering the programs will press for better pay and perquisites of themselves- an outcome that larger programs will facilitate. . . .

Category IV spending tends also to corrupt the people involved. All such programs put some people in a position to decide what is good for other people. The effect is to instill in the one group a feeling of almost God-like power; in the other , a feeling of childlike dependence. The capacity of the beneficiaries for independence, for making their own decisions, atrophies through disuse. In addition to waste of money, in addition to th
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 12, 2019 - 5:57pm
Continued:
The capacity of the beneficiaries for independence, for making their own decisions, atrophies through disuse. In addition to waste of money, in addition to the failure to achieve the intended objectives, the end result is to rot the moral fabric that holds a decent society together.
 
https://wichitaliberty,org/economics/friedman-the-fallacy-of-the-welfare-state/
 
The biggest complaint of the American present system is excess cost.   Those people that wrote Obamacare AKA also sit on the bargaining table  representing the insurance company or the provider for determining the payment tables for Medicare and Medicaid, category IV spending.  And they sit opposite each other on the private insurance bargaining, also category IV spending.   The VA is also a category IV spending enterprise as is all welfare systems in the world including all national health care system.  
 
Lives are on the line for health care systems.  Private insurance typically deny service and point out that Medicare denies the service also.  Medicare denies more services then the private health care system.  National health care systems such as the VA have a self interest to stay within budget and have done almost anything.  The scandals are about denying services and even denying recognition that a patent exist. 
 
 This is not unique to America.  "Another family in the UK is fighting to keep doctors from forcing their sick baby off of life support. From The Mirror story:
 
Charlie Gard supporters are rallying round the family of a seriously ill little boy as his parents face a battle with medics to keep him alive. 
 
Tiny Alfie Evans in being treated at Alder Hey Children’s Hospital in Liverpool and suffers from a mystery . . . As in the Charlie Gard case, doctors have warned they may have to take legal action as Tom will not let let them switch off Alfie’s life support.
 
Hopefully, the international brouhaha over Charlie will make it more difficult in Alfie’s case for the authorities to impose another “futile patient” die-sooner-than-later outcome.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3731404/charlie-gard-appeal-judges-reveal-why-decision-ill-baby/
 
https://revelationstwelve.wordpress.com/2017/08/03/another-charlie-gard-uk-family-fights-to-keep-sick-baby-alive/
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 13, 2019 - 8:46am
All mankind shares the rights of "Life Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" - "Life" includes negating abortion. It also includes supporting a healthy population. 
We have reached 7 billion because of governments putting into place a means for more food, shelter,  earning power etc. which economies need to grow. 
Simply put large populations generate money and support large economies. Our population growth was deliberately created. It was not by accident.
Health care is basic to "Life, liberty & the pursuit of Happiness". The powers to be who encouraged population growth to support growing economies and provide the manpower for both peace and war are
also responsible to maintain the highest level of health. 
It is the moral thing to do. 
 
Robin the red breasted songster Added Feb 13, 2019 - 9:16am
Thomas:
 
At no point do I say that Universal Health Care is a perfect system... nothing can be.
 
By its very nature, healthcare is a bottomless pit financially speaking.   You can always spend more.  So it has to be effectively rationed.
 
This can either be done through rationing based on the patients ability to pay or through some central body deciding which patients get treated and which do not (usually based on some kind of quality of life versus cost to the system criteria).
 
Neither form of rationing is particularly nice to administer... whether you are a patient or the medical worker that is treating them... but it has to be done.
 
My point, borne out by empirical evidence … not by opinion or dogma.... is that Universal Health Care systems are far more efficient than private health care based systems.
 
The UK, for example, overall spends half as much per capita on health care versus the USA but has a life expectancy that is a few years longer.
 
This is fact... not opinion or an expression of dogma
 
I have explained why I think it delivers this result in earlier posts.
 
I believe that you are blinded to truth because you are driven purely by some sort of capitalist dogma.  You think private solutions are always going to be the best.    Real world experience shows that some things are better done by private capital and others are better done by public capital.  
 
If you think about things for five minutes you can see that this must be true because it depends upon the success factors that you apply.  Private capital solutions are generally best at maximising financial return on capital.  Where you have other primary objectives such as, for example, the health or happiness of the nation, then they may not necessarily deliver the best result.   They are not great at delivering secondary objectives such as saving the planet from over warming or drowning in plastic either....
FacePalm Added Feb 13, 2019 - 9:39am
So, idiots want free healthcare, free room and board, complete gun control, jobs for all that want them as well as those who don't want to work don't have to -and all the supervision that comes with it.
 
It'll be great!  It'll be Utopia!
 
Well, good news, fools: such a place ALREADY EXISTS!  It's called "prison."
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 13, 2019 - 10:39am
Robin . . .  Songster so who determines HOW IT IS EFFECTIVELY RATIONED? <<By its very nature, healthcare is a bottomless pit financially speaking.   You can always spend more.  So it has to be effectively rationed.>>  How effective is the VA doing?   How effective is the UK health care system doing, ask Alifie's and Charlie's parents?  How effective is Canada doing, ask the people that bargain with US hospitals and get often a price that are fractions of what is charged to US patents? (Understand that the third party payer in our private insurance system results in the interest of the insurance company and providers be served over the patent. Their interest is to charge as much as the patent can bear.)   Ask even Americans with our third party paying private health care system and government system.  "“Medical tourism” was valued at about $439 billion last year in a new report by Visa and Oxford Economics, which projected that it could grow 25 percent a year over the next decade. This year, an estimated 1.4 million Americans will leave the country for a medical procedure, according to Patients Beyond Borders.   . . . A knee replacement, for example, which would cost $35,000 to $60,000 in the United States, costs less than $23,000 in Costa Rica or India, including airfare and lodging for the patient and a companion, according to Indus Health, which helps employers offer medical tourism benefits to their workers. "    http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2016/08/17/14-Million-Americans-Will-Go-Abroad-Medical-Care-Year-Should-You
 
Socialist government that treat their citizens as a collective, not individuals, choose to provide more medical care to the productive members of society.  So the governing class citizens get the best heath care.  The middle class the next level, and the poor the worst.   The elderly are no longer productive so they get poor health care.  
 
Doesn't seem to be any significant difference between the government decisions and those that the patents make by their money except for the elderly and as we see in the UK example the young that are not yet productive.  
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 13, 2019 - 10:42am
Facepalm:
I want what the elite get in healthcare.
Robin the red breasted songster Added Feb 13, 2019 - 11:59am
Thomas:  Once again you miss the point.
 
I said that rationing, whatever it's basis, is going to mean hard choices... sometimes unfair choices.
 
This does not change the simple fact that, with all of its faults, the NHS delivers healthcare for half of the cost of the US system whilst delivering a 2-3 year longer life expectancy.   Fact.. not opinion.
 
I am well aware that the owners of certain newspapers would like to destroy the NHS and put us all at the mercy of free enterprise medicine as you have in the USA.   We need to resist this with every means at our disposal.   God bless the NHS!
Robin the red breasted songster Added Feb 13, 2019 - 12:02pm
Don't know what you are smoking Facepalm.   Looks like you have swallowed the bullshit being pumped out by the US establishment whole.    You will be shouting "Freedom" and "God Bless America" next.   Sleep on,
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 13, 2019 - 1:12pm
Thomas and Facepalm
Many European nations have far better health care than we do.
As far as things doing well, few of our programs are faultless. From Defense to education have faults in them. That does not mean you give up on them.
As for By its very nature, healthcare is a bottomless pit financially speaking.   You can always spend more.
No. Technology is making health care more efficient and cheaper. What it costs to have a heart operation today is a fraction of the cost in the past.
 
Technology is finding easier and more effective ways for long term care that do not require the current time or cost.
 
But to make that progress a lot of people need to participate so investments into new technology take place. No one will invest in technology that is not profitable. 
 
An ethical society would invest in technology even if it does not promise fortunes 
 
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 13, 2019 - 9:21pm
The flip side of healthcare is personal care or healthy living. A good deal of sickness can be avoided or even cured with personal care. The Doctor is not essential each and every time.
Robin the red breasted songster Added Feb 14, 2019 - 2:33am
Michael:   In the NHS today a lot of effort is spent on primary care... promoting "good living".   Many routine tests are carried out by nurses or pharmacists.
 
It is also true that most things get better by themselves.
Ward Tipton Added Feb 14, 2019 - 3:05am
"The powers to be who encouraged population growth to support growing economies and provide the manpower for both peace and war are
also responsible to maintain the highest level of health. 
It is the moral thing to do. "
 
I am still trying to wrap my head about providing the manpower for war and morality in the same proposition. Am I the only one to note the irony of such a view?
Michael B Bagala Added Feb 14, 2019 - 7:52am
 Ebola Mogg
I wouldn't count on you to send me help but I would count on you to infect the population with Ebola. 
Thomas Sutrina Added Feb 14, 2019 - 3:27pm
Robin . . . songster and Michael B. B., you trapped in the dogma of the socialist religion that says the government master minds are smarter then the average citizen and thus should make big decision for them.  You do not seem to need someone to think for you.  So why are you letting them?
 
How many failures do you need to determine that there are no master minds and a leviathan government is not smarter in making big decisions then the spontaneous order made up of thousand to millions of minds of the free market.  Government bureaucrats fail and they always fail compared to spontaneous order of a free market which means the difference is measured in shared misery of all the people.  
 
I agree with many of your statement << I said that rationing, whatever it's basis, is going to mean hard choices... sometimes unfair choices. . . . By its very nature, healthcare is a bottomless pit financially speaking.   You can always spend more.  So it has to be effectively rationed.  >> << As far as things doing well, few of our programs are faultless. >>  
 
I hope that you agreed, didn't dispute it, with my statement that applies to most government programs and for sure heath care. << (Understand that the third party payer(s) members of the swamp, in our private insurance system results in the interest of the insurance company and providers be served over the patent. Their interest is to charge as much as the patent can bear.) . . . Self interest of those at the bill drafting table in the first two years of Obama and Trump produced the system the swamp wanted.  . . . National health care systems such as the VA have a self interest to stay within budget and have done almost anything.  The scandals are about denying services and even denying recognition that a patent exist. >>  
 
Michael you believe Europe's national health care system have done better then what a free market system would do,  (America has not had a free market since ~ 1950, it has had a third party payer system that the FDR administration OKed and then expanded until it dominated the market.)   If your only comparing it to the third party paying system then the comparison can not be on cost because that is not a free market.   The above comments apply so let us consider the VA example in the last two sentences in bold.  If the national health care system does not report service denied or patents not recognized then it is obvious that they metrics would appear to be better then they should if nothing was left out.  It is very hard to determine what didn't happen or prevented from happening what would effect the metrics, becomes speculation.  Your belief is skewed by the actions of the government agencies to make the metric appear better then they should.  
 
Dr. Ben Carlson promoted a proven by what on a national level would be a test market study health care approach of the 'health savings account'  The French national health care system requires the posting of prices which let their patent shop around because they pay a portion of the costs.  So in part it is tested in Europe.  
 
Spontaneous order means that the brains and rational thinking of patents, millions of them determine what is the most cost effective and highest quality.  They vote with their feet and money.  This is compared to a comparatively few people making decisions that spend as much or more money.  Above Milton Friedman tells us how they think, category III and IV have different interest then the patent.    Only an individual know his self interest and him making decisions for himself on average will create the highest amount of satisfaction.    Care about people then you have to trust people to work at getting the best value.